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In my opinion Naruto would have gotten no stronger than Kakashi without the nine tailed fox and sage mode and would be dead by now without them. As much as I like Naruto he would never have been able to beat a lot of the real villains he has fought with out taking power from an other source of chakra like the nine tails chakra and the nature chakra for sage mode, heck even in the movies when he doesn't transform he still has to infuse power or chakra from an outside source with his rasengan to topple the villain.
But this is only my opinion, what do you guys think?

Strength, speed and skill on Kakashi's level his high Uzumaki chakra. Still has access to Shadow Clones for combat and intel, and Rasengan variants (though with his own chakra he could probably onlu pull off one RasenShuriken).

Base Naruto is still an A level ninja, like Neji, Garaa and Sasori.


Most of the ninjas above A+ have their own traits just like Sage Mode and the given Kyubii. Sharingan/Rinnegan, Chakra gates, Bloodline abilities and other special things.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Strength, speed and skill on Kakashi's level his high Uzumaki chakra. Still has access to Shadow Clones for combat and intel, and Rasengan variants (though with his own chakra he could probably onlu pull off one RasenShuriken).

Base Naruto is still an A level ninja, like Neji, Garaa and Sasori.


Most of the ninjas above A+ have their own traits just like Sage Mode and the given Kyubii. Sharingan/Rinnegan, Chakra gates, Bloodline abilities and other special things. Yes but he'd never be able to take on people like Orochimaru, Itachi, Sasuke, Pain, Obito, Madara, the kage, the tailed beasts and most of the akatsuki. And I don't think the rasenshuriken would even be on the table, the first time he used the rasenshuriken it damaged his chakra network, so each time he uses that there is a high chance it will forever destroy his chakra network and ensuring his days as a ninja being over. The only reason naruto is using the technique as often as he is is because he is in transformed states at the time. And all those traits you mentioned take great training to be effective, there not chakra enhancers, and the chakra gates takes great training to achieve, but the further you take the inner gates the closer they are to either crippling them selves or killing themselves. I am not denying Naruto is a great ninja its just his natural skill, strength, speed, chakra and jutsu on there own would not have helped him achieve half of the things he's done, at least not at his age or level of experience.

that is true. if you take away their other abiltieis like kekkai genkai and super modes, then Naruto is still pretty strong too even without the kyuubi or sage mode, though some of his attacks aren't as effective in base form.

He wouldn't be "weak" but if hadn't had nine tails he wouldn't have gotten very far in the manga. Sasuke most certainly would have killed him.

Originally posted by Damborgson
He wouldn't be "weak" but if hadn't had nine tails he wouldn't have gotten very far in the manga. Sasuke most certainly would have killed him. Exactly, if he didn't have the the nine tails chakra or sage mode his hand to hand combat would only be on Kakashi's level and he would only just be able to use the giant rasengan with out the nine tails chakra or nature chakra by now.

He'd be dead without the Nine Tails.

Haku would have killed him.

Haku was a pacifist so probably not.

Anyway it's likely Naruto just flat out wouldn't be a ninja. He has no talent for chakra control and his chakra would be much lower without it. The only technique Naruto seemed to have down pat was the transformation technique, which is actually a very useful move.

But assuming he does have the same large chakra given his parents then he'll retain the ability to use clones. He'd lose to Haku but given the nature of the guy he'd survive. After that comes the Chunin Exams and yeah Orochimaru would probably kill him since there is no reason to leave him alive. If that happened Sasuke might actually awaken his MS very early since Naruto was the closest person to him.

Assuming Orochimaru doesn't kill him then he loses to Neji in the first round of the Chunin Exams and dies for certain against Gaara in the forest, meaning Jiraiya would have to be the one to stop him.

Originally posted by KAIKAGE
In my opinion Naruto would have gotten no stronger than Kakashi without the nine tailed fox and sage mode and would be dead by now without them. As much as I like Naruto he would never have been able to beat a lot of the real villains he has fought with out taking power from an other source of chakra like the nine tails chakra and the nature chakra for sage mode, heck even in the movies when he doesn't transform he still has to infuse power or chakra from an outside source with his rasengan to topple the villain.
But this is only my opinion, what do you guys think?

No access to Kurama's chakra means no Tajuu Kage Bunshin no Jutsu, and therefore no early use of Rasengan, no use of the Elemental variants, and no Giant Toad Summons.

He'd still work extremely hard to master ninjutsu, particularly Wind Release Jutsu. The only thing is it would take a much longer time as he could not create hundreds of clones and maintain them under stress for long periods of time.
I guess he could become as strong as Kakashi (pre-Sharingan) somewhere down the line if and when he became a Jounin.

Oh, and gais, remember that whatshisface dude who Naruto thrashed with the Tajuu Kage Bunshin no jutsu right after he mastered it? Yeah, he'd be the one who kills Naruto.

How do we know which things he can do under his own power and which he needs Kurama for?

Kakashi would be dead without that eye his best friend gave him.

Sasuke would be dead without that curse mark Oro gave him.

what is your point?

Naruto may eventually get to S-class simply based on being an Uzumaki, having great shape control (something he inherited from his dad), and developing his techniques. It'd just take much longer.

Originally posted by BloodRain
How do we know which things he can do under his own power and which he needs Kurama for?

He needed Kurama's chakra to summon a Giant Toad, and it was thanks to Kurama that he could make thousands of shadow clones in the first place, which is what helped him combine Wind chakra and the Rasengan. It is also due to Kurama's chakra mixing in with his own chakra, that his own chakra reserves have increased, and are so damn high. Without Kurama, he'd probably be somewhere closer to Orochimaru at best in terms of chakra. Couple that with the shitty chakra control he had in Part 1 and the earlier parts of Part 2, and yeah.

I don't recall if he used hundreds of Shadow Clones to master Rasengan though. Probably not.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix

I don't recall if he used hundreds of Shadow Clones to master Rasengan though. Probably not.

It looked more like he just tried repeatedly himself.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Haku was a pacifist so probably not.

Anyway it's likely Naruto just flat out wouldn't be a ninja. He has no talent for chakra control and his chakra would be much lower without it. The only technique Naruto seemed to have down pat was the transformation technique, which is actually a very useful move.

But assuming he does have the same large chakra given his parents then he'll retain the ability to use clones. He'd lose to Haku but given the nature of the guy he'd survive. After that comes the Chunin Exams and yeah Orochimaru would probably kill him since there is no reason to leave him alive. If that happened Sasuke might actually awaken his MS very early since Naruto was the closest person to him.

Assuming Orochimaru doesn't kill him then he loses to Neji in the first round of the Chunin Exams and dies for certain against Gaara in the forest, meaning Jiraiya would have to be the one to stop him.

His chakra control problems actually came from Kyuubi, so without Kyuubi, he probably does fine. Even without Kurama, his chakra was at least 4 times Kakashi's iirc, and based off of Kakashi's showings, that's enough to handle most people.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
No access to Kurama's chakra means no Tajuu Kage Bunshin no Jutsu, and therefore no early use of Rasengan, no use of the Elemental variants, and no Giant Toad Summons.

He'd still work extremely hard to master ninjutsu, particularly Wind Release Jutsu. The only thing is it would take a much longer time as he could not create hundreds of clones and maintain them under stress for long periods of time.
I guess he could become as strong as Kakashi (pre-Sharingan) somewhere down the line if and when he became a Jounin.

Oh, and gais, remember that whatshisface dude who Naruto thrashed with the Tajuu Kage Bunshin no jutsu right after he mastered it? Yeah, he'd be the one who kills Naruto.

Did it ever state anywhere that Naruto needed Kurama do to mass clones? He's been able to do it since the early chapters of the manga. He didn't ever need Kurama until Haku, who was a pretty powerful ninja at the time.

Without Kurama, he wouldn't have been hated by everyone, would still have his parents (One being one of the top geniuses in the manga), which means expert instruction in techniques, and his already high chakra levels due to bloodline. so basically, he could have been a potential Minato with even higher chakra stores. He'd have been fine.

Originally posted by NemeBro
He'd be dead without the Nine Tails.

Haku would have killed him.

I thought that too, but seeing as how Haku chose not to kill Sasuke, I assume he'd have done the same with Naruto. He'd have killed them both from the get go had he felt like it.
Originally posted by KAIKAGE
Exactly, if he didn't have the the nine tails chakra or sage mode his hand to hand combat would only be on Kakashi's level and he would only just be able to use the giant rasengan with out the nine tails chakra or nature chakra by now.

yeah...he wouldn't have learned Rasenshuriken imo, and he'd probably be busting out the odama rasengan as his big move.

I think he'd be a jonin but not quite kakashi.

Originally posted by KAIKAGE
In my opinion Naruto would have gotten no stronger than Kakashi without the nine tailed fox and sage mode and would be dead by now without them. As much as I like Naruto he would never have been able to beat a lot of the real villains he has fought with out taking power from an other source of chakra like the nine tails chakra and the nature chakra for sage mode, heck even in the movies when he doesn't transform he still has to infuse power or chakra from an outside source with his rasengan to topple the villain.
But this is only my opinion, what do you guys think? naruto would have hanged himself by age 13

Originally posted by Damborgson
I thought that too, but seeing as how Haku chose not to kill Sasuke, I assume he'd have done the same with Naruto. He'd have killed them both from the get go had he felt like it.


yeah...he wouldn't have learned Rasenshuriken imo, and he'd probably be busting out the odama rasengan as his big move.

I think he'd be a jonin but not quite kakashi.

Haku probably would have merced them both. So what? It's not his thing, end of story. naruto wouldn't have died either way.

Yes he would have. Nothing suggests he had to have Kuraama's help to complete it. he only used a couple of clones to perfect, which is well, well, with his capabilities solo to do so.

Sage mode was actually hindered by Kuraama so he would still have that. All sage mode requires is high chakra amounts (he's an uzamaki), ant the instruction of your summons. Without Kuraama he would have been able to use Ma and Pa and have no time lime on his Sage mode with more Sage mode clones. He'd still kick ass

Originally posted by psycho gundam
naruto would have hanged himself by age 13

If Sasuke hasn't hanged himself yet, I'm Naruto would have been fine.

naruto really didn't have much going for him power wise minus the kyuubi. he hasn't even really shown any uzumaki anything nor embraced any of their scrolls or clan techs so far, nor has he shown too much interest alongside strict kyuubi training.

like stated earlier, all of his abilities are based on how much time he can shave off with his shadow clones, an ability afforded to him by being able to multiply himself a thousandfold cause of kyuubi chackra

It's not only because of kyuubi chakra. Kakashi could make several with his chakra. narutos, as a child, had at least 4 times that. Besides, who knows what techs naruto could have learned with others helping him from birth and no Kurama to screw with his chakra control. Besides he made several strides as a teen with the sole goal of not relying on kyuubi chakra. Sage mode is one of them.

Lol Kurama didn't screw with Naruto's chakra control. Naruto is just really shit at it. The soul exception being matching his chakra with others because it fits the theme and such.

Originally posted by socool8520
It's not only because of kyuubi chakra. Kakashi could make several with his chakra. narutos, as a child, had at least 4 times that. Besides, who knows what techs naruto could have learned with others helping him from birth and no Kurama to screw with his chakra control. Besides he made several strides as a teen with the sole goal of not relying on kyuubi chakra. Sage mode is one of them. i think you mean naruto mastering sexy no jutsu, a derivative of transforming into the guise of someone else. he trained to do the clone technique really hard, but the amount he can create is due to his massive reservoir the kyuubi granted

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Lol Kurama didn't screw with Naruto's chakra control. Naruto is just really shit at it. The soul exception being matching his chakra with others because it fits the theme and such.


http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v10/c090/8.html

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v11/c091/12.html


These scans imply that Kurama had a lot to do with his chakra control issues. Once they got along, you're right his genius in chakra control came out and now he can manipulate it

Originally posted by psycho gundam
i think you mean naruto mastering sexy no jutsu, a derivative of transforming into the guise of someone else. he trained to do the clone technique really hard, but the amount he can create is due to his massive reservoir the kyuubi granted

he also trained to do the kage bunshin really hard and gasp......he mastered it. Just like everything else. Eevn with Kurama, he would still be able to use ass clones. Maybe not for as long, but he would still be able to do it. If he had such low chakra, Kurama would have been able to take him over long ago when using kage bunshin, since he also has to have enough chakra to combat kurama.

Originally posted by socool8520
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v10/c090/8.html

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v11/c091/12.html


These scans imply that Kurama had a lot to do with his chakra control issues. Once they got along, you're right his genius in chakra control came out and now he can manipulate it

The former scan pretty much proves that he has so much chakra because of the Kyubi. Without it, no clones.

And the second scan has nothing to do with anything. The Kyuubi wasn't messing with his chakra control, the seal Orochimaru placed on his was.

How good would Naruto's chakra control be without the Kyuubi? No one can tell because Naruto has never been without it. But we do know his natural chakra levels would be much lower.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
The former scan pretty much proves that he has so much chakra because of the Kyubi. Without it, no clones.

And the second scan has nothing to do with anything. The Kyuubi wasn't messing with his chakra control, the seal Orochimaru placed on his was.

How good would Naruto's chakra control be without the Kyuubi? No one can tell because Naruto has never been without it. But we do know his natural chakra levels would be much lower.

It's not debated he would have more chakra without Kurama. just that he would still be able to do mass clones.

It also proves it makes it harder to control, which is what I was saying. Second proves, with Oro's intervention it was even harder for him to control.

And yet much higher than everyone else besides Kisame. Hate all you want, Naruto would still kick ass without Kurama. Without Kurama, Naruto would have had a family and things could have turned out much different.

Originally posted by socool8520
It's not debated he would have more chakra without Kurama. just that he would still be able to do mass clones.

It also proves it makes it harder to control, which is what I was saying. Second proves, with Oro's intervention it was even harder for him to control.

And yet much higher than everyone else besides Kisame. Hate all you want, Naruto would still kick ass without Kurama. Without Kurama, Naruto would have had a family and things could have turned out much different.

It says point blank that the Kyuubi is at the root of his stamina. Without it and his stamina goes to more or less normal. Sure you can make the argument that because he's an Uzumaki his chakra should be nice and high but then I'd just point at Karin.

Anyone's chakra controlling is going to suffer if someone screws with it.

Again, it's because of the Kyuubi that he has such natural stamina. And I love how disagreeing with you means I'm hating on the character. Also the OP isn't asking what Naruto would be like if he had his family instead of Kurama and Sage Mode. It's asking what Naruto would be like without them, meaning in this scenario his parents are still dead.

Karin has never really had a fight, but still has the chakra to heal people who should be dead cough cough..Sasuke..cough cough. Not to mention nagato and Kushina, so I can't quite agree with you there.

So you agree, Kurama and Oro screwed with it, thus making it hard to control. Not so hard is it?

If Naruto didn't have Kurama, then his parents would still be alive, but I get your point. Sage mode is a stupid removal in my pinion as he got that on his own. Without Kurama.

Yea. Karin isn't a great fighter, but she has multiple strong abilities to make up for it (not just healing but a sensor). Her blood is pretty good.

And she might've just been from some minor branch, while Naruto's Kushina's son.

Originally posted by socool8520
Karin has never really had a fight, but still has the chakra to heal people who should be dead cough cough..Sasuke..cough cough. Not to mention nagato and Kushina, so I can't quite agree with you there.

So you agree, Kurama and Oro screwed with it, thus making it hard to control. Not so hard is it?

If Naruto didn't have Kurama, then his parents would still be alive, but I get your point. Sage mode is a stupid removal in my pinion as he got that on his own. Without Kurama.

Karin is one of the weakest ninja with a name. Nagato had the Rinnegan and Kushina had the Kyuubi sealed in her in the same way as Naruto. Without it she likely wouldn't have been as strong as we saw.

No, I agree that Orochimaru screwed with it. I'm not really seeing how Kurama has ever negatively affected Naruto's chakra control by just existing. He didn't let him go Sage Mode but that's about it.

It is but then again I always hated how Naruto mastered Sage Mode in under a week and made Jiraiya look like basically the shittiest learner alive.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Karin is one of the weakest ninja with a name. Nagato had the Rinnegan and Kushina had the Kyuubi sealed in her in the same way as Naruto. Without it she likely wouldn't have been as strong as we saw.

No, I agree that Orochimaru screwed with it. I'm not really seeing how Kurama has ever negatively affected Naruto's chakra control by just existing. He didn't let him go Sage Mode but that's about it.

It is but then again I always hated how Naruto mastered Sage Mode in under a week and made Jiraiya look like basically the shittiest learner alive.

This doesn't disprove the fact that she could lend enough chakra to save a pwned, dying Sasuke with an effing hole in his chest. Regardless of what Nagato had, he still had massive chakra reserves to bring back every dead person in Konoha. After fighting a ninja with crazy reserves himself. Kushina was still able to make chakra chains capable of tying up the 9 tails for a moment after giving birth. Nuff said.

Basically, Naruto would have had to deal with two Different types of chakra in his body. How can you not see where that would be hard to control? And because Ebisu said so.


Just because you don't like it doesn't make it any less true. He is a genius of learning through his body. kind of his strong point. He did learn Kage bunshin in a day, and rasengan in a week. Come on. I hate current Madara, but as much as it pains me to say it, he is no. 1 right now until Naruto comes up with something new.

Originally posted by socool8520
This doesn't disprove the fact that she could lend enough chakra to save a pwned, dying Sasuke with an effing hole in his chest. Regardless of what Nagato had, he still had massive chakra reserves to bring back every dead person in Konoha. After fighting a ninja with crazy reserves himself. Kushina was still able to make chakra chains capable of tying up the 9 tails for a moment after giving birth. Nuff said.

Basically, Naruto would have had to deal with two Different types of chakra in his body. How can you not see where that would be hard to control? And because Ebisu said so.


Just because you don't like it doesn't make it any less true. He is a genius of learning through his body. kind of his strong point. He did learn Kage bunshin in a day, and rasengan in a week. Come on. I hate current Madara, but as much as it pains me to say it, he is no. 1 right now until Naruto comes up with something new.

But she doesn't heal them to full strength and it leaves her tuckered out. Her feats simply aren't that big. Having the Rinnegan means you can basically gather as much chakra as you want and once again Kushina's power comes from having the Kyuubi be a part of her for so long. It doesn't matter if at the time it was outside her.

Well no because Naruto basically ignored the second chakra completely.

Kage Bushin in a day is fine. Rasengan in a couple of weeks in fine. Making the Rasenshuriken is fine. The latter two required Naruto just get creative and work around his own natural failings to do something impossible and that's nice. Naruto didn't really have to do that with Sage Mode. He just out and out mastered it and made Jiraiya look really pathetic by comparison lol.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
But she doesn't heal them to full strength and it leaves her tuckered out. Her feats simply aren't that big. Having the Rinnegan means you can basically gather as much chakra as you want and once again Kushina's power comes from having the Kyuubi be a part of her for so long. It doesn't matter if at the time it was outside her.

Well no because Naruto basically ignored the second chakra completely.

Kage Bushin in a day is fine. Rasengan in a couple of weeks in fine. Making the Rasenshuriken is fine. The latter two required Naruto just get creative and work around his own natural failings to do something impossible and that's nice. Naruto didn't really have to do that with Sage Mode. He just out and out mastered it and made Jiraiya look really pathetic by comparison lol.

So what? She saved him from dying! This isn't like Sakura with the fish, this was a person, with severe, severe, injuries. And like you said, that was from a relatively weak Uzamaki.

i must have missed the part where the rinnegan gives you infinite chakra because there is nothing I have read that has lead me to believe that it gives you more. That was all Uzamaki blood as far as I can tell.

On the Kushina thing....What? Of course it matters if she was separated. How in the world could you incorporate the fact that because she had the kyuubi before, she somehow retained all of its benefits? The fact is, she had the Kyuubi, it was ripped from her (normally kills people(Uzamaki Vitality)), and she was still able to suppress for a time (Uzamaki chakra stamina), and stop it from crushing Naruto (althoug she did have Minato for that). Come on dude.

Regardless if he ignored it, it was still there wasn't it? If he had, would that not mean he was using entirely his own strength to do the clones? Up until life saving moments like Haku and gamabuntu?

So basically he learns high level techs in record time since his introduction, but sage mode is where you draw the line? It never says how long it took Jiraiya to obtain sage mode that I recall, and his mastery of it was more than enough. Had he faced the obstacles with sage mode that Naruto did (Namely, not having Ma and Pa gather nature energy for him), he might have reached Naruto's level.

Originally posted by socool8520
So what? She saved him from dying! This isn't like Sakura with the fish, this was a person, with severe, severe, injuries. And like you said, that was from a relatively weak Uzamaki.

i must have missed the part where the rinnegan gives you infinite chakra because there is nothing I have read that has lead me to believe that it gives you more. That was all Uzamaki blood as far as I can tell.

On the Kushina thing....What? Of course it matters if she was separated. How in the world could you incorporate the fact that because she had the kyuubi before, she somehow retained all of its benefits? The fact is, she had the Kyuubi, it was ripped from her (normally kills people(Uzamaki Vitality)), and she was still able to suppress for a time (Uzamaki chakra stamina), and stop it from crushing Naruto (althoug she did have Minato for that). Come on dude.

Regardless if he ignored it, it was still there wasn't it? If he had, would that not mean he was using entirely his own strength to do the clones? Up until life saving moments like Haku and gamabuntu?

So basically he learns high level techs in record time since his introduction, but sage mode is where you draw the line? It never says how long it took Jiraiya to obtain sage mode that I recall, and his mastery of it was more than enough. Had he faced the obstacles with sage mode that Naruto did (Namely, not having Ma and Pa gather nature energy for him), he might have reached Naruto's level.

And it left her tired and unable to do anything. Sakura and Tsunade can heal multiple people from such injuries without reaching the same state as Karin.

You want to know where he gets the chakra from? He eats it. The Rinnegan lets him do that.

You're assuming that her stamina comes from being an Uzumaki. It doesn't. It comes from having a Kyuubi inside her for the majority of her life. It increases the natural chakra levels of a person.

Having the Kyuubi at all made his normal chakra levels above average. This is not complicated. The chakra Naruto uses to create 1000 or so Shadow Clones is his own. However his own chakra levels are higher than average just due to the Kyuubi's presence. Assuming the Kyuubi was never sealed in him, his chakra levels would go down to...well I don't rightfully know. Karin is the only strictly pure Uzumaki we've seen really.

Yes because Naruto didn't really have to get creative to master Sage Mode. He just did it. The most help he got were from a few clones and Jiraiya could have used those. The only part that required Naruto to get creative was when he had to deal with being able to keep it up more than 5 minutes. Jiraiya couldn't even really go into Sage Mode as well as Naruto.

I think Sasuke's wounds were bigger than the ones Sakura generally heals.

She's done single stab wounds no prob, but Killerbee filled him with a whole buncha swords, and it was fast as healing go too.

Not saying that Sakura's not capable of healing more without getting tired, just pointing out Karin's had definite advantages.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He needed Kurama's chakra to summon a Giant Toad, and it was thanks to Kurama that he could make thousands of shadow clones in the first place, which is what helped him combine Wind chakra and the Rasengan. It is also due to Kurama's chakra mixing in with his own chakra, that his own chakra reserves have increased, and are so damn high. Without Kurama, he'd probably be somewhere closer to Orochimaru at best in terms of chakra. Couple that with the shitty chakra control he had in Part 1 and the earlier parts of Part 2, and yeah.

I don't recall if he used hundreds of Shadow Clones to master Rasengan though. Probably not. I seem to recall Naruto exploding with blue chakra to create hundreds of shadow clones and summon Gamabunta against Gaara, and that was back when he was 13 before his 2 and a half years training with Jiraiya. And Naruto didn't need the nine tails to use those clones during his training to create the rasenshuriken, the nine tails cloak only formed because of the strain his training put on his chakra network which opened his defences to being taken over by the nine tails. Naruto has still accomplished alot without needing the nine tails chakra, its just his bigger fights and victories that he has needed the nine tails chakra and sage mode.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
It says point blank that the Kyuubi is at the root of his stamina. Without it and his stamina goes to more or less normal. Sure you can make the argument that because he's an Uzumaki his chakra should be nice and high but then I'd just point at Karin.

Anyone's chakra controlling is going to suffer if someone screws with it.

Again, it's because of the Kyuubi that he has such natural stamina. And I love how disagreeing with you means I'm hating on the character. Also the OP isn't asking what Naruto would be like if he had his family instead of Kurama and Sage Mode. It's asking what Naruto would be like without them, meaning in this scenario his parents are still dead. Partly maybe but a fair bit of Naruto's stamina is due to Naruto being an uzumaki, the Uzumaki clan's genetic trait is having a strong and resilient chakra network, the Uzumaki clan from the land of whirlpools is also famous for their sealing jutsu's who have a strong alliance with the leaf village which is why the ninja of the leaf have that red swirl on their ninja uniforms.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
he hasn't even really shown any uzumaki anything nor embraced any of their scrolls or clan techs so far, nor has he shown too much interest alongside strict kyuubi training.
chackra it's not like he had anyone to teach him his clans techs or show him their scrolls. Both parents were dead and everyone in the village not named Iruka would risk bladder infection sooner than pissing on him if were on fire.

Originally posted by socool8520
Did it ever state anywhere that Naruto needed Kurama do to mass clones? He's been able to do it since the early chapters of the manga. He didn't ever need Kurama until Haku, who was a pretty powerful ninja at the time.

Without Kurama, he wouldn't have been hated by everyone, would still have his parents (One being one of the top geniuses in the manga), which means expert instruction in techniques, and his already high chakra levels due to bloodline. so basically, he could have been a potential Minato with even higher chakra stores. He'd have been fine.

It's implied. Small amounts of Kurama's chakra merge with Naruto's own chakra, and increase his base levels of chakra. For 12 years, Naruto's regular chakra levels had kept increasing. Ergo, yes, he needed Kurama to create hundreds of Shadow Clones. He definitely would not have been able to make upwards of a hundred clones with just his own chakra had Kurama not been sealed inside him. His chakra levels would be somewhere between Sasuke's & Orochimaru's at best.

Eh, the question is just asking how Naruto strong would be if he didn't have Kurama & Sage Mode, not what his life would be like if Kurama was never sealed inside him. Much like asking what Sasuke's life would be like if he never got the Sharingan, not what his life would be like if Itachi never killed their parents. It is a stupid question IMO, but meh.

Ah, I'd say maybe a bit better. Uzumaki is a specific chakra-heavy bloodline after all.

Originally posted by Damborgson
I thought that too, but seeing as how Haku chose not to kill Sasuke, I assume he'd have done the same with Naruto. He'd have killed them both from the get go had he felt like it.

True, but without Kyuubi Haku would have easily incapacitated Sasuke and Naruto, and would have helped Zabuza with Kakashi, Kakashi probably dying there as well.

It is unlikely that Zabuza would leave Naruto and Sasuke alive.

Or he'd just kill them both. Kakashi has a habit of doing that.

I did not read all of the thread so forgive me if I repeat stuff.


Naruto would be an even better ninja had he not be given the 9-tails.

Kurama's chakra mixing with his own certainly gives him a chakra boost but Naruto already had naturally high levels of chakra...absurdly high levels. Doing sage training requires absurdly high levels of chakra. Kurama's chakra interfered with that. He still mastered it better than anyone before. His chakra also has to be high enough to counteract Kurama's or he will die. What does that mean? Naruto has natural chakra levels on par with the most powerful tailed beast (besides the 10-tails, obviously). I won't say that Naruto has the highest natural chakra levels of any character...but it seems like he does.


That said, much of his issues come from being hated for having the tailed beast. He was shunned and outcast. Had he not been outcast, he would not be a delinquent. Had he not be a delinquent, he would have been able to focus on his studies and practice harder. With his already absurdly high chakra levels and his ridiculous genius withOUT his delinquency, he's be among the most talented and powerful ninjas before the time-skip: easily.


So when people stupidly say Haku would have killed him (Haku would not have...he did not want to kill anyone), they are wrong. He would have already been a superb ninja by the time he fought Haku.

NARUTO would be a fine NINJA without the 9tails, remember that in the beginning, the reason why NARUTO could not do a decent jutsu is primarily due to the 9tails CHAKRA messing with his.

this kind of thread reminds me why the sakura hate in almost all forums is pretty absurd.

sakura is the only one without any clan buffs but is one of the smartest and most studious of them all. she basically became a mini tsunade in the timeskip (sasuke got his sannin amps for free and naruto had thousands of clones over the coarse of his study), so with that in mind, under other top ninja's tutelage she could stack tons more abilities to her repertoire. the sky's the limit with medicine., after all.....

....kabuto. he even incorporated kekkei genkai to his powerset.

naruto's too retarded to go very far minus kyuubi

Well Sasuke didn't really get his Sanin amps for free. He kinda stole them humorously enough. Can't fault the guy for that. The MS/EMS was pretty much handed to him in as much as they could have been.

Originally posted by Q99
Ah, I'd say maybe a bit better. Uzumaki is a specific chakra-heavy bloodline after all.

A 12 year old Naruto without Kurama? I really don't see why he'd be above Orochimaru in terms of chakra capacity. It is not like Sasuke has low to average levels of chakra either.Originally posted by psycho gundam
this kind of thread reminds me why the sakura hate in almost all forums is pretty absurd.

sakura is the only one without any clan buffs but is one of the smartest and most studious of them all. she basically became a mini tsunade in the timeskip (sasuke got his sannin amps for free and naruto had thousands of clones over the coarse of his study), so with that in mind, under other top ninja's tutelage she could stack tons more abilities to her repertoire. the sky's the limit with medicine., after all.....

....kabuto. he even incorporated kekkei genkai to his powerset.

naruto's too retarded to go very far minus kyuubi

Let's all hate on Hinata, who was weak despite possessing KG.

hinata's not even that weak, she just has a passive personality (possibly being made to fight against her will even), but naruto's inspiration makes her emboldened enough to train harder and embrace her potential

neji was right

Originally posted by psycho gundam
this kind of thread reminds me why the sakura hate in almost all forums is pretty absurd.

sakura is the only one without any clan buffs but is one of the smartest and most studious of them all. she basically became a mini tsunade in the timeskip (sasuke got his sannin amps for free and naruto had thousands of clones over the coarse of his study), so with that in mind, under other top ninja's tutelage she could stack tons more abilities to her repertoire. the sky's the limit with medicine., after all.....

....kabuto. he even incorporated kekkei genkai to his powerset.

naruto's too retarded to go very far minus kyuubi Oh please Sakura is the biggest failure of the series, she's the only one who hasn't grown as a person at all, she is still obsessed with the guy who hasn't done anything to deserve her feelings for him at all instead of Naruto who has done everything to deserve her feelings, heck he even left the village for years to train with Orochimaru, getting darker and darker, commiting crime after crime and even tried to kill Naruto in front of her and he has tried to kill her twice and she still can't get the message and move on, she really should have gotten over Sasuke and fallen for Naruto way before now. And she hasn't gotten any stronger since the start of shippuden. She hasn't accomplished anything, her only victory was when she teamed up with lady Chiyo to beat Sasori.

that's what's wrong with the manga, or at least the majority of the people that consume it; if the guy isn't dbz level, they're shit.

sakura becomes a goddamn surgeon in 2 years and soon after helps take down and counteract the poison of one if not the greatest poison users in the manga but it's not good enough lol. she did well considering the tone of the manga and the inevitability of the plot.

guys like kiba and the rest barely appear and really just got a little bit better at what limited stuff they do have, yet no hate. "oh but sakura hasn't gotten over sasuke", she's a phucking girl, have you ever met one of those? some people get a tattoo of their significant other's name on their arm, madara has his boyfriend's face glued to his heart, but i guess he has god powers so it's okay.

what has she actually failed at? if anything obito, nagato, and madara failed or will fail ultimately

Originally posted by psycho gundam
hinata's not even that weak, she just has a passive personality (possibly being made to fight against her will even), but naruto's inspiration makes her emboldened enough to train harder and embrace her potential

neji was right

Hating on her because she was/is weak is ridiculous. Hating on her because she's largely been a waste of space is justified.

All of my problems with Hinata would be solved if she wasn't a ninja. Or maybe she was one because her father forces her to be one since she is from an important clan.

She's not very strong, she doesn't make a good effort for trying to get strong, and most importantly her temperament just isn't very good for a ninja.

Also I'm glad Psycho and I will always agree on Chiyo and Sakura kicking ass.

That was a pretty awesome fight. My only gripe with it as of now is that it robbed us of further Deidara-Sasori interactions, which were lulzy. Had to wait until they were resurrected.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
that's what's wrong with the manga, or at least the majority of the people that consume it; if the guy isn't dbz level, they're shit.

sakura becomes a goddamn surgeon in 2 years and soon after helps take down and counteract the poison of one if not the greatest poison users in the manga but it's not good enough lol. she did well considering the tone of the manga and the inevitability of the plot.

guys like kiba and the rest barely appear and really just got a little bit better at what limited stuff they do have, yet no hate. "oh but sakura hasn't gotten over sasuke", she's a phucking girl, have you ever met one of those? some people get a tattoo of their significant other's name on their arm, madara has his boyfriend's face glued to his heart, but i guess he has god powers so it's okay.

what has she actually failed at? if anything obito, nagato, and madara failed or will fail ultimately My word I'm not denying she is second from the top at being a medical ninja, I'm talking about her combat skills and the fact that the only significant enemy she's beaten is Sasori and that was because she got a lot of help from lady Chiyo. And as illogical as girls are they would still have moved on by now especially after almost getting murdered by the person there infatuated with, its just they built a lot of drama and potential between Naruto and Sakura and instead of Sakura doing the strong and brave thing of moving on from Sasuke and accept the significant feelings she's shown towards Naruto she dwells on Sasuke and sits back and lets Hinata claim Naruto. I just find Sakura the most pathetic of the main characters, the only thing to admire about her is her intelligence and natural ability in the medical field, she keeps whining about only being able to do the little things for Naruto that anyone could do when the most significant thing she could do for him she can't bring herself to do. Anyway lets get off this subject I'm tired of ranting about bloody Sakura Haruno.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
That was a pretty awesome fight. My only gripe with it as of now is that it robbed us of further Deidara-Sasori interactions, which were lulzy. Had to wait until they were resurrected.

Indeed. Deidara and Sasori are by far my favorite Akatsuki team(including Tobi when he joins).

Originally posted by KAIKAGE
My word I'm not denying she is second from the top at being a medical ninja, I'm talking about her combat skills and the fact that the only significant enemy she's beaten is Sasori and that was because she got a lot of help from lady Chiyo. And as illogical as girls are they would still have moved on by now especially after almost getting murdered by the person there infatuated with, its just they built a lot of drama and potential between Naruto and Sakura and instead of Sakura doing the strong and brave thing of moving on from Sasuke and accept the significant feelings she's shown towards Naruto she dwells on Sasuke and sits back and lets Hinata claim Naruto. I just find Sakura the most pathetic of the main characters, the only thing to admire about her is her intelligence and natural ability in the medical field, she keeps whining about only being able to do the little things for Naruto that anyone could do when the most significant thing she could do for him she can't bring herself to do. Anyway lets get off this subject I'm tired of ranting about bloody Sakura Haruno.

Naruto didn't move on after Sasuke tried to kill him. Even ignored Hinata's confession and boobs because he was worried about Sasuke. Trufax.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Naruto didn't move on after Sasuke tried to kill him. Even ignored Hinata's confession and boobs because he was worried about Sasuke. Trufax. this

Naruto's creed and life goal is ultimately dependent on sasuke's rehabilitation, like the theme of this manga is "star-crossed lovers" now and it stars naruto and sasuke. Sakura's love for sasuke is overshadowed by naruto's, he doesn't even care about a girl that's been tossing her vag at him for years.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Indeed. Deidara and Sasori are by far my favorite Akatsuki team(including Tobi when he joins).


Same here, now that I think about it. Pity we didn't get to see them fight together. Would have been interesting.

Hidan-Kakuzu was probably my second favourite team, even if Kakuzu was a hard-ass.

Deidara and Sasori was also my favorite Akutski team. I liked Kakuzu, but I thought Hidan was weak sauce. Kakuzu and Oro would have been pretty cool imo

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
A 12 year old Naruto without Kurama? I really don't see why he'd be above Orochimaru in terms of chakra capacity. It is not like Sasuke has low to average levels of chakra either.

Let's all hate on Hinata, who was weak despite possessing KG.

Well he was at least 4 times Kakashi at 12 so it's not out of the question.

I like Hinata so I can't really hate on her. I still believe she could beat Sakura and Ino. Sakura doesn't impress me at all in battle (her best showing was with the help of an old lad), and I can't recall Ino doing much of anything unless she has a team with her to act as a distraction.

Originally posted by socool8520
Well he was at least 4 times Kakashi at 12 so it's not out of the question.

I like Hinata so I can't really hate on her. I still believe she could beat Sakura and Ino. Sakura doesn't impress me at all in battle (her best showing was with the help of an old lad), and I can't recall Ino doing much of anything unless she has a team with her to act as a distraction.

His own chakra capacity was 4 times that of Kakashi's because of Kurama. It'd be much less if Kurama was not sealed in him.

Careful, Aura will bust your balls for referring to Chiyo as 'old lad'. He likes her almost as much as he does that raven haired bimbo from Bleach. vin

Originally posted by socool8520
Well he was at least 4 times Kakashi at 12 so it's not out of the question.

I like Hinata so I can't really hate on her. I still believe she could beat Sakura and Ino. Sakura doesn't impress me at all in battle (her best showing was with the help of an old lad), and I can't recall Ino doing much of anything unless she has a team with her to act as a distraction.

See DP's reply.

She could not beat either Sakura or Ino. Sakura has better feats and Ino has kinda become a memetic badass during this war. Her mind transfer is faster than Naruto lol.

And that old lady would stomp Hinata into the ground with a single puppet.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
His own chakra capacity was 4 times that of Kakashi's because of Kurama. It'd be much less if Kurama was not sealed in him.

Careful, Aura will bust your balls for referring to Chiyo as 'old lad'. He likes her almost as much as he does that raven haired bimbo from Bleach. vin

Okay I'm not gonna lie, I lol'd. haermm

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
His own chakra capacity was 4 times that of Kakashi's because of Kurama. It'd be much less if Kurama was not sealed in him.

Careful, Aura will bust your balls for referring to Chiyo as 'old lad'. He likes her almost as much as he does that raven haired bimbo from Bleach. vin

It never states this anywhere. In fact didn't Kakashi specifically separate the two when he was talking about this? 4 times better solo, around 100 times with Kurama? So I don't buy this argument at all.

I liked Chiyo, but I was using her sarcastically to prove how Sakura's fight with Sasori was over hyped. Without Chiyo, sakura's dead early.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
See DP's reply.

She could not beat either Sakura or Ino. Sakura has better feats and Ino has kinda become a memetic badass during this war. Her mind transfer is faster than Naruto lol.

And that old lady would stomp Hinata into the ground with a single puppet.



Okay I'm not gonna lie, I lol'd. haermm

Saw it. Didn't agree about 10 posts ago when he said, and still don't now.

What feats for Sakura? I mean without help? They both have great chakra control and sakura's strength means jack when her chakra points are closed off.

Ino sucks. She always needs Shikamaru and Choji to be effective. The war hasn't disproved this. Oh, and wasn't she also amped up on Kurama juice to achieve this "faster than naruto" tech?


Chiyo would definitely pwn Hinata. That was never in question.

Originally posted by socool8520
It never states this anywhere. In fact didn't Kakashi specifically separate the two when he was talking about this? 4 times better solo, around 100 times with Kurama? So I don't buy this argument at all.

I liked Chiyo, but I was using her sarcastically to prove how Sakura's fight with Sasori was over hyped. Without Chiyo, sakura's dead early.

Stated right here. With each year, the seal weakens, and more of Kurama's chakra slips out and mixes with Naruto's.

Considering it was Sasori that Sakura would be fighting against, no shit she'd be dead without Chiyo. Put Hinata in the same position or up against a random opponent as strong as Sasori, and she'd be dead long before Sakura would be.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Okay I'm not gonna lie, I lol'd. haermm

Success!

Seriously though, Chiyo or Rukia? 313

He still has his own chakra, which is what Kakashi was referring to, or why would he bring them up separately?


I guessed you missed my point. I never said that Hinata would do better than Sakura in the same instance. I was simply showing how unimpressive the feat is since she needed Chiyo to dodge his attacks. I only bring it up because it was one Sakura's showings that has been brought up in the past, and it's not the great.

I believe Hinata/Chiyo would have done just as well.

Originally posted by socool8520
He still has his own chakra, which is what Kakashi was referring to, or why would he bring them up separately?


I guessed you missed my point. I never said that Hinata would do better than Sakura in the same instance. I was simply showing how unimpressive the feat is since she needed Chiyo to dodge his attacks. I only bring it up because it was one Sakura's showings that has been brought up in the past, and it's not the great.

I believe Hinata/Chiyo would have done just as well.

Do I really have to spell it out for you?

i) Small amounts of Kurama's chakra spills out and combines with Naruto's chakra. This means that Naruto's own base chakra levels increase over time.
ii) The amount of Kurama's chakra that can mix with Naruto's chakra keeps increasing with each year.
iii) At that point in time, Naruto had had Kurama for 12 years. Meaning that for 12 years, Naruto's regular chakra levels were slowly increasing.
iv) "Naruto's chakra", which is what Kakashi was referring to, is really a mixture of his regular chakra and some of Kurama's.


Sakura only needed Chiyo's help in dodging Sasori's attacks for the first bit of the fight. She learned how to predict his attacks and evade accordingly.

Not really. Hinata has no way to get past Sasori's armored puppet, and she does not have the reflexes, the agility, the intelligence & the observation that Sakura has.

Originally posted by socool8520
What feats for Sakura? I mean without help? They both have great chakra control and sakura's strength means jack when her chakra points are closed off.

Ino sucks. She always needs Shikamaru and Choji to be effective. The war hasn't disproved this. Oh, and wasn't she also amped up on Kurama juice to achieve this "faster than naruto" tech?

Her strength allows her to one shot Hinata. Her ability to later keep track of Sasori's puppets means she won't get hit by Hinata in return. Sakura has also incapacitated Sasori by being fast enough. Hinata on the other hand has no feats or very few(whatever she did against the Juubi being the few). The only thing that makes people think Hinata stands any chance at all is the Hyuga style of fighting being arguably better. Which is not a good argument if you compare, say, Sage Mode Naruto to Neji.

She has reacted to Asuma before in combat and possesed Choji's body before the former could kill him. These are better feats than anything Hinata sans Naruto power up has to her name.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Success!

Seriously though, Chiyo or Rukia? 313

Probably Rukia.

Also, Ino possessed two Zetsu at once.

Like, picture you're a squad of ninja, and Ino gets the drop on you. Suddenly two of your number are trying to kill the other two, and even if you find her body she can defend and still be on the offense.

Plus if she's paired with a Hyuga, she can do super-long-range possession.


---

Ironically, Naruto has a true secret hidden power which the presence of Kurama suppressed, and without Kurama he'd actually be ten times as strong as his hidden bloodline limit awakens!

Originally posted by Q99
Also, Ino possessed two Zetsu at once.

Like, picture you're a squad of ninja, and Ino gets the drop on you. Suddenly two of your number are trying to kill the other two, and even if you find her body she can defend and still be on the offense.

Plus if she's paired with a Hyuga, she can do super-long-range possession.


---

Ironically, Naruto has a true secret hidden power which the presence of Kurama suppressed, and without Kurama he'd actually be ten times as strong as his hidden bloodline limit awakens!

As I recall, that was pretty close range and she was still being helped out by Shikamaru.

Ino getting the drop on anyone seems unlikely to me. But I guess this would be cool

Again, this requires pairing, which is why I don't think much of her solo. She is highly effective in a team setting, but I think she loses a lot of versatility solo. Same with Sakura. She's basically just a weaker Tsunade with less chakra I would assume. Hinata just seem to me to be the best of the three solo. She has better defense (almost no openings for sneak attacks) and better Tai jutsu (Sakura has much more strength, but she basically just throws haymakers)

Whaatt???? lol

Shikamaru protected her body while she did stuff, but it didn't require him. They weren't shadow-trapped Zetsu or anything.

Just one of Sakura's haymakers is all she'd need to floor Hinata and the latter has no feats suggesting she'd be able to dodge.

Of course Killermover already made the definitively Sakura vs Hinata thread where his bias became lol worthy.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Just one of Sakura's haymakers is all she'd need to floor Hinata and the latter has no feats suggesting she'd be able to dodge.

Of course Killermover already made the definitively Sakura vs Hinata thread where his bias became lol worthy.

There is really nothing suggesting that she wouldn't be able to dodge them either. Sakura is by no means fast. It it seems you sell Hinata short a bit. She did take more than a few licks from Nagato before she bought it. And the reverse is also true of Sakura. If Hinata hits one or more of the chakra points, Sakura's strength is gone. Just because we haven't seen much of Hinata doesn't mean she is automatically slower and weaker than everyone. We'll just agree to disagree I guess

Never read it. I remember you mentioning that that person thought Hinata was on par with Nagato or something.

Originally posted by Q99
Shikamaru protected her body while she did stuff, but it didn't require him. They weren't shadow-trapped Zetsu or anything.

That to me seems like a pretty important need. Wouldn't you agree? Besides, they're Zetsu. Who didn't look good against the white zetsu?

Originally posted by socool8520
There is really nothing suggesting that she wouldn't be able to dodge them either. Sakura is by no means fast. It it seems you sell Hinata short a bit. She did take more than a few licks from Nagato before she bought it. And the reverse is also true of Sakura. If Hinata hits one or more of the chakra points, Sakura's strength is gone. Just because we haven't seen much of Hinata doesn't mean she is automatically slower and weaker than everyone. We'll just agree to disagree I guess

Never read it. I remember you mentioning that that person thought Hinata was on par with Nagato or something.

Sakura has showings. Hinata doesn't. And no, she really didn't. Nagato one shot Hinata. Every opponent she has fought to any meaningful degree has been so far beyond her that they give no showings.

Originally posted by socool8520
That to me seems like a pretty important need. Wouldn't you agree? Besides, they're Zetsu. Who didn't look good against the white zetsu?

Well Hinata for one.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Sakura has showings. Hinata doesn't. And no, she really didn't. Nagato one shot Hinata. Every opponent she has fought to any meaningful degree has been so far beyond her that they give no showings.



Well Hinata for one.

She's a main character. Of course she has showings. They weren't that impressive to me but oh well.


She bailed out Neji iirc. lol

Originally posted by socool8520
She's a main character. Of course she has showings. They weren't that impressive to me but oh well.


She bailed out Neji iirc. lol

Whether they were impressive or not is irrelevant. The point is that they exist. Which cannot be said for Hinata.

She hit a distracted opponent. Coward. uhuh

Originally posted by socool8520
That to me seems like a pretty important need. Wouldn't you agree? Besides, they're Zetsu. Who didn't look good against the white zetsu?

It's important in a battlefield with a lot of foes. On a mission with just a few? Not so much!

Originally posted by Q99
It's important in a battlefield with a lot of foes. On a mission with just a few? Not so much!

What? If she's alone, even with only a few foes, taking the risk of missing and getting murdered is too high. Unless you assume the ninjas are just going to stand still while she does it.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Whether they were impressive or not is irrelevant. The point is that they exist. Which cannot be said for Hinata.

She hit a distracted opponent. Coward. uhuh

Weak showings don't make you automatically better than someone without them imo. The only props I give Sakura are her genius like medical skills, and her great chakra control. But, that's just me.

That's pretty much all of Ino's showings lol

Also the fact that Ino-in-Choji could hold off Asuma shows her taijutsu isn't bad.

I would still put it below Hinata's.

Well, yea, but it's still useful.

oh, you meant in general....my bad. Yeah, it's useful. However, if your body is lying limp on the ground....lol

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Do I really have to spell it out for you?

i) Small amounts of Kurama's chakra spills out and combines with Naruto's chakra. This means that Naruto's own base chakra levels increase over time.
ii) The amount of Kurama's chakra that can mix with Naruto's chakra keeps increasing with each year.
iii) At that point in time, Naruto had had Kurama for 12 years. Meaning that for 12 years, Naruto's regular chakra levels were slowly increasing.
iv) "Naruto's chakra", which is what Kakashi was referring to, is really a mixture of his regular chakra and some of Kurama's.


Sakura only needed Chiyo's help in dodging Sasori's attacks for the first bit of the fight. She learned how to predict his attacks and evade accordingly.

Not really. Hinata has no way to get past Sasori's armored puppet, and she does not have the reflexes, the agility, the intelligence & the observation that Sakura has. The Hyuuga clan's gentle fist style attacks the chakra network, so Hinata could attack the chakra core and biological heart of Sasori's puppet body to beat him.

Originally posted by KAIKAGE
The Hyuuga clan's gentle fist style attacks the chakra network, so Hinata could attack the chakra core and biological heart of Sasori's puppet body to beat him.

She still has no answer to the 3rd Kazekage puppet. And I doubt Sasori would let her tag him in his puppet body. Then there's the issue of the 100 puppets in which she hasn't shown anything impressive enough the would lead me to believe that she could've done better than Sakura in that fight.

Originally posted by KAIKAGE
The Hyuuga clan's gentle fist style attacks the chakra network, so Hinata could attack the chakra core and biological heart of Sasori's puppet body to beat him.

Sure, she could hit Sasori's heart to beat him.

Now, please explain how she would destroy Hiruko, the puppet Sasori is usually in, and how she would get close to Sasori's puppet body whilst avoiding the attacks of the myriad of offensive puppets that Sasori has.

If I were to use your argumentative style, I could easily say that Hinata could beat Hashirama, or current Naruto. She could just hit them with Gentle Fist to beat them.

sasori can kill her in one shot with a single poison senbon. she has to go through a meat grinder just to touch his heart whereas she's pretty free as far as he's concerned, plus chackra strings and she chokes herself out

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Sure, she could hit Sasori's heart to beat him.

Now, please explain how she would destroy Hiruko, the puppet Sasori is usually in, and how she would get close to Sasori's puppet body whilst avoiding the attacks of the myriad of offensive puppets that Sasori has.

If I were to use your argumentative style, I could easily say that Hinata could beat Hashirama, or current Naruto. She could just hit them with Gentle Fist to beat them.

The same way Sakura did, with help from Chiyo. lol

You don't seem to get it. DP is saying that Hinata lacks the power to break Hiruko, which is a substantial claim given her lack of feats. If Sasori is to be removed from Hiruko, it would be up to Chiyo to do so entirely on her own as Hinata can't rightfully do anything to help.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
She still has no answer to the 3rd Kazekage puppet. And I doubt Sasori would let her tag him in his puppet body. Then there's the issue of the 100 puppets in which she hasn't shown anything impressive enough the would lead me to believe that she could've done better than Sakura in that fight. Your forgetting her signature move the 8 trigrams 64 and 128 palms guard which works well when she's fighting a high number of opponents, also she has the twin lion palm technique that she used to break pain's chakra disruption blades and to fight pain.

Originally posted by socool8520
The same way Sakura did, with help from Chiyo. lol

So, Hinata would do this? lol

Originally posted by AuraAngel
You don't seem to get it. DP is saying that Hinata lacks the power to break Hiruko, which is a substantial claim given her lack of feats. If Sasori is to be removed from Hiruko, it would be up to Chiyo to do so entirely on her own as Hinata can't rightfully do anything to help.

Yeah, and Chiyo stated that she could not get past Hiruko by herself. Which is why Sakura's strength was needed.

^ She does have chakra infused attacks so, yes, I could see her smashing a puppet with those lion fist things or something similar.

So what, Chiyo was old. Of course she couldn't do it herself.

Originally posted by socool8520
^ She does have chakra infused attacks so, yes, I could see her smashing a puppet with those lion fist things or something similar.

So what, Chiyo was old. Of course she couldn't do it herself.

Okay, you could see her doing something similar to Sakura. I don't. Now you have to prove her chakra infused attacks could smash through Hiruko.

Obviously, I can't considering she hasn't had the panel time that Sakura has had. I still think she could though.

IMHO, Naruto could be (keyword: COULD) as strong as Jiraiya in adulthood.
Probably even stronger, 'cause of his determination and 'Uzumaki bloodline' guts.

His chakra reserves would be much, much lower though.
The Kyuubi grants him almost unlimited amounts of chakra, like the Potara Earrings in Dragonball.

He'd lose against Orochimaru-level and higher tier opponents.

How do you know his chakra reserves would be lower? He's an Uzamaki, meaning he would through blood, have high chakra reserves. He had enough chakra to master, well hell, be able to obtain sage mode. Something Oro couldn't do.

Besides, he defeated the third Raikage with sage mode and nearly defeated Pain with just sage mode. Both of those people would shit stomp Oro.

Originally posted by socool8520
How do you know his chakra reserves would be lower? He's an Uzamaki, meaning he would through blood, have high chakra reserves. He had enough chakra to master, well hell, be able to obtain sage mode. Something Oro couldn't do.
He's read the manga and probably my posts as well.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
i) Small amounts of Kurama's chakra spills out and combines with Naruto's chakra. This means that Naruto's own base chakra levels increase over time.
ii) The amount of Kurama's chakra that can mix with Naruto's chakra keeps increasing with each year.
iii) At that point in time, Naruto had had Kurama for 12 years. Meaning that for 12 years, Naruto's regular chakra levels were slowly increasing.
iv) "Naruto's chakra", which is what Kakashi was referring to, is really a mixture of his regular chakra and some of Kurama's.


Originally posted by socool8520
Besides, he defeated the third Raikage with sage mode and nearly defeated Pain with just sage mode. Both of those people would shit stomp Oro.

He didn't overpower the Third Raikage with Sage Mode. He just used its sensory perception that borders on precog.
Also, Naruto never "nearly defeated Pain with just Sage Mode". Naruto had help, prior knowledge of the Path's abilities, and most importantly, Deva Path was powerless while Naruto was smacking around the other Paths. Deva Path proceeded to quickly incapacitate Naruto once his power had returned. But this is a tangent.

Originally posted by socool8520
Obviously, I can't considering she hasn't had the panel time that Sakura has had. I still think she could though.
I could say I think Mito could wtfpwn Minato. Doesn't mean that she would, and since she does not have the feats to suggest that she could wtfpwn Minato, I'd be wrong.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He's read the manga and probably my posts as well.




He didn't overpower the Third Raikage with Sage Mode. He just used its sensory perception that borders on precog.
Also, Naruto never "nearly defeated Pain with just Sage Mode". Naruto had help, prior knowledge of the Path's abilities, and most importantly, Deva Path was powerless while Naruto was smacking around the other Paths. Deva Path proceeded to quickly incapacitate Naruto once his power had returned. But this is a tangent.


I could say I think Mito could wtfpwn Minato. Doesn't mean that she would, and since she does not have the feats to suggest that she could wtfpwn Minato, I'd be wrong.

You're not the sole authority on what's correct so who cares. lol
Nothing states his chakra reserves are low or would be much lower than Jiraya's as Asbestos believes.

Doesn't matter if he overpowered him, he beat him plain and simple. He destroyed most of the paths of pain. That much he could have done on his own.

You could say that, and without us knowing Mito's full capabilities, I couldn't tell you that you're wrong. Besides I never said Hinata would wtf pwn Sakura, just that I think she could beat her.

she almost got retconned per the last chapter lol. the kyuubi is sleeping anyway so her task wouldn't be that hard

Hell, with Mito being the Jinchuuriki, and her knowledge of seals, she may have been able to stomp a lot of the ninja world.

Originally posted by socool8520
You're not the sole authority on what's correct so who cares. lol
Nothing states his chakra reserves are low or would be much lower than Jiraya's as Asbestos believes.

Doesn't matter if he overpowered him, he beat him plain and simple. He destroyed most of the paths of pain. That much he could have done on his own.

You could say that, and without us knowing Mito's full capabilities, I couldn't tell you that you're wrong. Besides I never said Hinata would wtf pwn Sakura, just that I think she could beat her.

Says you. uhuh
I don't know about his chakra reserves being lower than Jiraiya's, but they would certainly be lower than what they are in canon, if he did not have Kurama sealed inside him. It is outright stated in the manga that the Kyuubi's chakra continually merges with his own chakra.

Context is not your friend.
Nope. He did it with help from the Toads, knowledge on what exactly most of the Paths could do; he would never have even done that much had Deva had his powers. That was made abundantly clear once Deva quickly and easily took the Toads and Naruto out.

You're right. Bad example. I think Sasuke could wtfpwn Hashirama.
I never said you said Hinata would wtfpwn Sakura, just that Mito could wtfpwn Minato, and now, Sasuke could wtfpwn Hashirama.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Says you. uhuh
I don't know about his chakra reserves being lower than Jiraiya's, but they would certainly be lower than what they are in canon, if he did not have Kurama sealed inside him. It is outright stated in the manga that the Kyuubi's chakra continually merges with his own chakra.

Context is not your friend.
Nope. He did it with help from the Toads, knowledge on what exactly most of the Paths could do; he would never have even done that much had Deva had his powers. That was made abundantly clear once Deva quickly and easily took the Toads and Naruto out.

You're right. Bad example. I think Sasuke could wtfpwn Hashirama.
I never said you said Hinata would wtfpwn Sakura, just that Mito could wtfpwn Minato, and now, Sasuke could wtfpwn Hashirama.

I agree with you that his reserves would not be as high without Kuraama. My only disagreement was that it was implied they would be low. Imo , given his bloodline, and the high chakra demands that sage mode supposedly requires, Naruto would still be one of the more chakra heavy characters in the series, barring a Jinchuuriki, Kisame, and a few others.


Even Sasuke vs Hash is a bad example. Sasuke has tons of feats to go from, and Hash by virtue of besting the most powerful Uchiha to date is better. I could see your angle if Sasuke actually had less feats to go off of. lol

Originally posted by socool8520
I agree with you that his reserves would not be as high without Kuraama. My only disagreement was that it was implied they would be low. Imo , given his bloodline, and the high chakra demands that sage mode supposedly requires, Naruto would still be one of the more chakra heavy characters in the series, barring a Jinchuuriki, Kisame, and a few others.


Even Sasuke vs Hash is a bad example. Sasuke has tons of feats to go from, and Hash by virtue of besting the most powerful Uchiha to date is better. I could see your angle if Sasuke actually had less feats to go off of. lol

Eh, for 16 years his chakra reserves kept increasing. So we don't know if he would be able to use Sage Mode if he never had Kurama. One thing though is that he wouldn't be able to use Tajuu Kage Bunshin which iirc, he could only use due to Kurama, so he wouldn't be able to master the Rasenshuriken.

Actually, we don't know all of Sasuke's capabilities at this point. stoned

He could use several more than anyone else in the series barring the people I already stated. He would still learn these techniques, just not quite as rapidly. Instead of weeks, maybe months? Besides, I was under the impression that Kurama was limiting in this training as the more of his personal chakra he used, the less he had to actually combat Kurama.

Well, then your statement is still up in the air then isn't it? lol

After reading this is've noticed people have a lot of good points.
Before I make a full attempt at reasoning through this ingot a few questions.
1. Why doesn't naruto have the nine tails?
Did Minato decide eh to hell with it I'm gonna seal all of the nine tails into me and take him with me into the shinigami after all I'm not going to live long enough after doing for it to matter. Or did Madera not do anything and the nine tails is still In Kushina? Or was someone else born on the same day at the same time and it was sealed into them?
For after all the circumstances would have a big effect on everything and everyone else.
2. If I understand things correctly chakra is somewhat hereditary i.e. if to people with alot of chakra have a kid then that kid would also have alot of chakra, right? Because a babys Chakra network begins to semi form from the parents right?
3. Seeing as Kushina is a jinchruuki when she got pregnant with naruto wouldn't some of kuramas Chakra mix with the babys?
Seeing as some of the bijuus trait is carried on to the kid.
If I could get an answer to those questions first before I answer yours that would be helpful.

No naruto would not be weak because he still has destiny on his side. Hes the reincarnation of ashura badically a demigod

Originally posted by firewolf
After reading this is've noticed people have a lot of good points.
Before I make a full attempt at reasoning through this ingot a few questions.
1. Why doesn't naruto have the nine tails?
Did Minato decide eh to hell with it I'm gonna seal all of the nine tails into me and take him with me into the shinigami after all I'm not going to live long enough after doing for it to matter. Or did Madera not do anything and the nine tails is still In Kushina? Or was someone else born on the same day at the same time and it was sealed into them?
For after all the circumstances would have a big effect on everything and everyone else.
2. If I understand things correctly chakra is somewhat hereditary i.e. if to people with alot of chakra have a kid then that kid would also have alot of chakra, right? Because a babys Chakra network begins to semi form from the parents right?
3. Seeing as Kushina is a jinchruuki when she got pregnant with naruto wouldn't some of kuramas Chakra mix with the babys?
Seeing as some of the bijuus trait is carried on to the kid.
If I could get an answer to those questions first before I answer yours that would be helpful.

1. It was my understanding that he entrusted the 9 tails to Naruto because he believed that Naruto would be able to handle it and that he would later be able to use the 9 tails's power to save the viallage.

2. I can't think of a situation where this isn't the case.

3. I'm not sure. It was a separate entity when it coincided with Kushina so I would think that Naruto would not have been affected until Kurama was actually a part of him.

Originally posted by socool8520
1. It was my understanding that he entrusted the 9 tails to Naruto because he believed that Naruto would be able to handle it and that he would later be able to use the 9 tails's power to save the viallage.

2. I can't think of a situation where this isn't the case.

3. I'm not sure. It was a separate entity when it coincided with Kushina so I would think that Naruto would not have been affected until Kurama was actually a part of him.

But wasn't kuramas Chakra already mixed with Kushina's so wouldn't some of that mix with naruto's cuz last I checked that was part of the reason naruto had the "whiskers"? And that still doesn't answer the first question because there has to be a reason why the nine tails is not sealed in naruto or I'm going to have to go with the scenario that madras never tried anything and naruto's parents are alive or that kurama killed them all that night.

Originally posted by yungz22
No naruto would not be weak because he still has destiny on his side. Hes the reincarnation of ashura badically a demigod errr, his destiny would have been cut short if not for the nine tails saving his ass way back part 1 of the series... unless you're asserting that Asura would have somehow intervened when Naruto's life was about to end.

Originally posted by marwash22
errr, his destiny would have been cut short if not for the nine tails saving his ass way back part 1 of the series... unless you're asserting that Asura would have somehow intervened when Naruto's life was about to end.


Everything that occurred in naruto's life was prewritten his destiny is to survive and shape the world.

Wasn't alot of early Naruto retconned between the fact that Uzumaki's have huge amounts of Chakra & a hf, his parents sealing a portion of their own chakra in him, and being a reincarnated Ashura?

You could attribute his high Chakra to any of these, we have no idea how much Chakra the 9 nine tails was leaking and then remember it was only at half power.

Well of course he'd be weak. Hell, the only thing that's keeping him alive right now is the light powers from Hagaromo and his Biju mode.

Naruto would be pretty much useless if he hadn't gotten the nine tails or learned sage mode. Kind of pointless though to ask something like that, because it's so obvious and he DOES have them.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Well of course he'd be weak. Hell, the only thing that's keeping him alive right now is the light powers from Hagaromo and his Biju mode.

Naruto would be pretty much useless if he hadn't gotten the nine tails or learned sage mode. Kind of pointless though to ask something like that, because it's so obvious and he DOES have them.

It's really hard to say that as we don't know how he would have evolved had he not had those abilities. We have already seen fairly strong ninja without these gifts. Hell, Gai just got a major bump and he doen't even use ninjutsu.

His chakra control more than likely would have been a lot better without Kurama screwing it up. With that, he could have mastered other techniques and became a fairly strong ninja. He still has high chakra reserves as an Uzumaki and increased vitality. He still has his ability to learn quickly in battle. His work ethic and training is still on his side.

Would he be what he is now? Of course not, but basically no one would be.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Well of course he'd be weak. Hell, the only thing that's keeping him alive right now is the light powers from Hagaromo and his Biju mode.

Naruto would be pretty much useless if he hadn't gotten the nine tails or learned sage mode. Kind of pointless though to ask something like that, because it's so obvious and he DOES have them. It's not that pointless if you yourself believe Naruto would be "useless" without these essentially god-given powers when one of the manga's central themes is (Or was) no matter who you are or where you came from you can make something of yourself if you work hard and never give up. Naruto himself was meant to be a sort of underdog character to showcase this theme, but that's frankly always been undercut by the fact that he has a demon fox pumping him chakra, and has only been diminished further over time by prophecies and God coming down from Heaven to give him demigod powers, etc.

Originally posted by socool8520
It's really hard to say that as we don't know how he would have evolved had he not had those abilities. We have already seen fairly strong ninja without these gifts. Hell, Gai just got a major bump and he doen't even use ninjutsu.

His chakra control more than likely would have been a lot better without Kurama screwing it up. With that, he could have mastered other techniques and became a fairly strong ninja. He still has high chakra reserves as an Uzumaki and increased vitality. He still has his ability to learn quickly in battle. His work ethic and training is still on his side.

Would he be what he is now? Of course not, but basically no one would be.

Well, not really if you think about it. If Naruto never had the fox, then it's safe to say that it would be because Minato and Kushina didn't seal it in him, which could be because of one of two reasons. Either A. Kushina died during pregnancy, which would mean Minato would have fought Obito until he won, Obito ran off, and he went to stop the fox from destroying the village. If this happened, it's likely that he would have been able to fight off the fox, and the village would have rebuilt, and the akatsuki would have all the tailed beasts. Or B. The third hokage would have used the reaper death seal to seal it into someone else, or possibly Minato.

In either scenario, Naruto grows up with a father, but no mother. In this case, Naruto would have been trained by the best people possible, such as personal training from Kakashi, Gai, Minato, Jiraiya from a young age, etc. This would lead to him becoming a very powerful ninja, possibly with Hiraishin passed down from Minato as well as rasengan still, but still only being around Minato's level or slightly higher. He would still be able to be around Kage level, but he would never be able to evolve past that, simply because he wouldn't have both Senju and Uchiha chakra, and because he wouldn't have the nine tails, and therefor wouldn't receive the light powers from Hagaromo later on.

In all of these scenario's, Naruto becomes very strong, and there's a possibility that Sasuke and his clan survive, but either way, it would be useless against the Akatsuki. He needs GODLY strength to fight the ten tails, the ten tails jinchuriki, and Kaguya. Without it, he falls faster than Minato himself did. There's a possibility he could get sage mode from Jiraiya still, but it's not enough to win here. He'd be strong as hell, but Kaguya or the Jyuubi host would still stomp, meaning the ninja world falls to Infinite Tsukiyomi.

Originally posted by NemeBro
It's not that pointless if you yourself believe Naruto would be "useless" without these essentially god-given powers when one of the manga's central themes is (Or was) no matter who you are or where you came from you can make something of yourself if you work hard and never give up. Naruto himself was meant to be a sort of underdog character to showcase this theme, but that's frankly always been undercut by the fact that he has a demon fox pumping him chakra, and has only been diminished further over time by prophecies and God coming down from Heaven to give him demigod powers, etc.

Eeeh, I see Gai and Lee as more of those kind of characters. Even Kakashi too, actually, considering his latest feats of god-level tier.

Naruto would still be incredibly strong, but not even close to the level he's at now. Unless he maybe learned the eight gates from Gai, as well as sage mode from Jiraiya, and Hiraishin, and rasengan from Minato, lol.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Well, not really if you think about it. If Naruto never had the fox, then it's safe to say that it would be because Minato and Kushina didn't seal it in him, which could be because of one of two reasons. Either A. Kushina died during pregnancy, which would mean Minato would have fought Obito until he won, Obito ran off, and he went to stop the fox from destroying the village. If this happened, it's likely that he would have been able to fight off the fox, and the village would have rebuilt, and the akatsuki would have all the tailed beasts. Or B. The third hokage would have used the reaper death seal to seal it into someone else, or possibly Minato.

In either scenario, Naruto grows up with a father, but no mother. In this case, Naruto would have been trained by the best people possible, such as personal training from Kakashi, Gai, Minato, Jiraiya from a young age, etc. This would lead to him becoming a very powerful ninja, possibly with Hiraishin passed down from Minato as well as rasengan still, but still only being around Minato's level or slightly higher. He would still be able to be around Kage level, but he would never be able to evolve past that, simply because he wouldn't have both Senju and Uchiha chakra, and because he wouldn't have the nine tails, and therefor wouldn't receive the light powers from Hagaromo later on.

In all of these scenario's, Naruto becomes very strong, and there's a possibility that Sasuke and his clan survive, but either way, it would be useless against the Akatsuki. He needs GODLY strength to fight the ten tails, the ten tails jinchuriki, and Kaguya. Without it, he falls faster than Minato himself did. There's a possibility he could get sage mode from Jiraiya still, but it's not enough to win here. He'd be strong as hell, but Kaguya or the Jyuubi host would still stomp, meaning the ninja world falls to Infinite Tsukiyomi.
for your first scenario how did you get that? The reason the nine tails escaped was due to madra wouldn't it also be eaa
sy to assume that he decided to terrorize some other villige like killer bees? And instead it was the hacibi that went nuts and because he never messed with kushina she would have live? And the senju and Uchiha Chakra did not come from the ninetails. Also Minato did the seal not the third and he sealed half of the nine tails into himself via that seal killing himself the third had nuthin to due with it. He could have forcibly sealed all of the nine tails into him via that seal and died having naruto grow up with no dad or mum but still there are other possible scenarios to consider witch would have changed everything. Still don't get your reason for the light powers though.

Originally posted by firewolf
for your first scenario how did you get that? The reason the nine tails escaped was due to madra wouldn't it also be eaa
sy to assume that he decided to terrorize some other villige like killer bees? And instead it was the hacibi that went nuts and because he never messed with kushina she would have live? And the senju and Uchiha Chakra did not come from the ninetails. Also Minato did the seal not the third and he sealed half of the nine tails into himself via that seal killing himself the third had nuthin to due with it. He could have forcibly sealed all of the nine tails into him via that seal and died having naruto grow up with no dad or mum but still there are other possible scenarios to consider witch would have changed everything. Still don't get your reason for the light powers though.

The nine-tails didn't escape the village, genius. Minato sealed it into Naruto and himself. If you mean how it escaped from Kushina, then you're still wrong. The reason it escaped was because Kushina was weakened from child-birth. In any scenario, she dies from losing the nine-tails while birthing Naruto.

Kushina would have been the jinchuriki in ANY case. She was only brought to Konoha in the first place because she was to be the jinchuriki.

Naruto doesn't have both Senju and Uchiha DNA. That was my point. Since he can't get the rinnegan through awakening it, his only hope to meeting Hagaromo would be through having Kurama, and becoming friends with all the biju, like he actually did.

I know the third didn't use it, obviously. I was saying that if Minato was fighting the nine tails, the third Hokage would have sealed it into someone because Kushina wasn't alive to restrain it. Again, it might have ironically been sealed into Minato.

The reason Naruto doesn't get the light powers is because he wouldn't have died from having the nine-tails extracted in the first place. Him and Sasuke might have never met, and if they did, they still wouldn't be able to meet Hagaromo because Naruto would have died at a different time.

Taking away the nine tails is one thing, but why Sage mode? That's an ability he on his own possesses, why strip him of it?

Anyway, he'd still be very powerful, considering how a significant portion of his own chakra was constantly used to suppress the nine tails. Even then, he still has Ashura's chakra within him--He would regardless have become one of the most prominent ninja of his day before long.

Before the whole Ashura chakra reincarnation BS was revealed, I'd have disagreed with the idea that Naruto would be very powerful without Kurama and Sage Mode.

This thread is like asking if goku would be weak without turning into an ssj or if yuseke couldnt use spirit gun would he be weak. Of course he would be weaker without those power ups but they dont make naruto who he is.



Its stupid to take away a part of a character just because you dont like that facet of his power

Short answer is no.

Without Kyuubi his chakra control would be perfect in part one

His parents would be alive and would taught him FTG, Fuinjutsu and Rasengan

Jirayia would taught him Summoning and SM

I don't know if the presence of kyuubi actually does negatively affect his chakra control... but in any case, by the end his chakra shaping is fantastic.

^ It was inferred that Kurama affected his chakra more than once iirc. Ebisu commented on it. I believe Kakashi and Jiraiya stated as well. I don't think it would have been perfect due to a genius like Sasuke having issues with control himself early on, but definitely better than with Kurama's prescence.

I also agree with immortal beauty about his parents teaching uber BA attacks. With his parents alive, he is probably another Minato level character easy with higher chakra stores. That's more than enough skill to wreck most of the narutoverse minus the bads from 4th war arc.

In the anime its states naruto would have 100x kakashis chackra rather then 4x if he wasn't suppressing the nine tails

Originally posted by socool8520
^ It was inferred that Kurama affected his chakra more than once iirc. Ebisu commented on it. I believe Kakashi and Jiraiya stated as well. I don't think it would have been perfect due to a genius like Sasuke having issues with control himself early on, but definitely better than with Kurama's prescence.

I also agree with immortal beauty about his parents teaching uber BA attacks. With his parents alive, he is probably another Minato level character easy with higher chakra stores. That's more than enough skill to wreck most of the narutoverse minus the bads from 4th war arc.

^ This.

Originally posted by Spooderswej
In the anime its states naruto would have 100x kakashis chackra rather then 4x if he wasn't suppressing the nine tails

I'm pretty sure that was in the manga too.

Whether it's simply talking about his chakra being that high because he could control the nine-tails, or he would have all of his own natural chakra, is up for debate though.

In the manga, Kakashi says "at least twice as much, likely a lot more". A far cry from 100x.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
In the manga, Kakashi says "at least twice as much, likely a lot more". A far cry from 100x.

Was it only twice? We're talking about when Yamato and Kakashi were training Naruto to learn Rasen-shuriken, in case you're not sure. Could you give a scan? For the life of me, I can't find the right page, and I'm not content reading through the whole saga again, lol.

http://www.mangapanda.com/93-320-11/naruto/chapter-315.html

At least twice as much normally, and 100x with Kurama.

Makes sense that Naruto has a lot of chakra normally. His mom was a Jinchuriki.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
http://www.mangapanda.com/93-320-11/naruto/chapter-315.html

At least twice as much normally, and 100x with Kurama.

Makes sense that Naruto has a lot of chakra normally. His mom was a Jinchuriki.

Oh, awesome.

Yeah though, not to mention that the Uzumaki clan has a ton of chakra normally, because they're a branch of the Senju clan.

But yeah, with twice the amount of chakra that Kakashi has, Naruto, trained under Minato, would have been a monster, lol. He definitely would have been superior to Minato himself, at least at the age he was when say... He fought Kaguya, lol.

he still has a shit ton of chakra... id say hed be a decent jonin not necessarily top tier tho... ppl like lee and neji from the leaf would be able to beat him

He'd probably reach fairly high tier eventually since he never gives up, it'd just take a lot more time and work.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
http://www.mangapanda.com/93-320-11/naruto/chapter-315.html

At least twice as much normally, and 100x with Kurama.

Makes sense that Naruto has a lot of chakra normally. His mom was a Jinchuriki.

He has Asura's chakra too, and it's safe to assume that Asura had a lot of chakra.

Considering that he has to have the chakra to perform uber attacks early on, but still have enough to counter Kurama taking over his body, I would think that 2x Kakashi's chakra reserves is probably a very low estimate.