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In a bar. 131 It's crowded and full of tables, bottles, ashtrays, ect.

Who comes out on top?

Snake end ups soiling himself, Wolverine's heighten sense of smell causes him to pass out

In all seriousness though Snake is Punisher Jr, he can't bullet time and he has no peak human strength or stats. He sucks

If he has no superhuman stats, then how the hell did he lift up that mech? It's absurdly stupid, but it happened.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
If he has no superhuman stats, then how the hell did he lift up that mech? It's absurdly stupid, but it happened. Snake never held up a mech, Big Boss did in Peacewalker but it was a gameplay mechanic, just before that he was captured and held in chains, if he was legitimately able to old up a mechs leg he would of been able to break out

But that's just more the reason why MGS is such a poorly written series

It wasn't a gameplay mechanic, you do not know what that term means.

Big Boss couldn't break chains, he sucks. End of story

what weapon or martial arts skill does Snake have that would ko Logan??

The secret art of face punch?

Originally posted by BloodRain
The secret art of face punch? If Snake actually tried to punch Logan, Logan would end up lobbing his arm off so fast that Snake wouldn't even realize it

Snake is essentially Punisher lite, he's a pathetic character, so is Big Boss.

Logan's not that fast, especially as Snake has bullet timing feats to boot. Speed is about equal.

Probably straight too.

Logan for the bones and experience.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Logan's not that fast, especially as Snake has bullet timing feats to boot. Speed is about equal.

Probably straight too.

Logan for the bones and experience. Logan is fast enough to kill Snake almost instantly, Snake has never bullet timed, Snake is slower than Punisher is

Snake couldn't break a pair of hand cuffs and was taken down by 3 soldiers

Wolverine can have no adamantium, no healing factor and normal stats and he would still kill Snake on pure skill alone

MGS characters are objectively some of the biggest pussies in fiction.

You obviously have some grudge against Snake.. which is strange but not uncommon around here.

I've seen the bullet timing clips posted, and strength feats. E.g. even with this muscle listening thing from.. whatever that guys call, even with that it would be a type of precog that allows him to preform supersonic feats. Which also means Snake tagged a guy with that bullet-timing precog. Compared to Logan who gets regularly outsped by a person with bullet-timing precog, Spider-Man.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Logan's not that fast, especially as Snake has bullet timing feats to boot. Speed is about equal.

Probably straight too.

Logan for the bones and experience.


I thought Snake was portrayed as a bisexual cos of his love of lady-boys?

Originally posted by Chozone
MGS characters are objectively some of the biggest pussies in fiction.

Lol "objectively."

Originally posted by Chozone
Snake couldn't break a pair of hand cuffs He did break those cuffs.

It's so painfully obvious that you are scourge's sock. What a pussy, socking and trying to troll after I crushed him on this site. You and your assmad shenanigans.

Originally posted by BloodRain
You obviously have some grudge against Snake.. which is strange but not uncommon around here.

I've seen the bullet timing clips posted, and strength feats. E.g. even with this muscle listening thing from.. whatever that guys call, even with that it would be a type of precog that allows him to preform supersonic feats. Which also means Snake tagged a guy with that bullet-timing precog. Compared to Logan who gets regularly outsped by a person with bullet-timing precog, Spider-Man. No, I just have an obligation for the truth which I intend to fufill, the simple fact is I know more about this series than anyone on this site including you, what it's characters are capable of and where they stand next to other characters

You've seen bullet timing feats posted probably from the Twin Snakes which is non canon, I know everything about this series and I can tell you that in regular canon Snake does have not have a single strength or bullet timing feat that would put him in the peak human range.

The fact that you don't even know that the guy with the muscle listening "thing" name is Vamp shows that you have little to no knowledge of the character or series and shouldn't be posting here

The fact that you believe Vamp is anywhere near as fast as Spiderman proves that you're a bigger imbecile. Vamp has proven that without his muscle reading ability that he can't dodge bullets by himself, that's why he was grazed in the face by Raiden because he couldn't fully read his muscle movements. Vamp isn't a true bullet timer

Don't worry about it, I'll be more than happy to educate you, just let me know if you have any other questions. Just try not to post anymore since you'll look like a tool like Nemebro

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Lol "objectively." Objective in the sense that no one has been able to prove otherwise

Originally posted by NemeBro
He did break those cuffs.

It's so painfully obvious that you are scourge's sock. What a pussy, socking and trying to troll after I crushed him on this site. You and your assmad shenanigans. Not sure who Scourge is but Snake couldn't break those cuffs without them getting damaged. It still took several minutes.

Originally posted by Chozone
No, I just have an obligation for the truth which I intend to fufill, the simple fact is I know more about this series than anyone on this site including you, what it's characters are capable of and where they stand next to other characters

You've seen bullet timing feats posted probably from the Twin Snakes which is non canon, I know everything about this series and I can tell you that in regular canon Snake does have not have a single strength or bullet timing feat that would put him in the peak human range.

The fact that you don't even know that the guy with the muscle listening "thing" name is Vamp shows that you have little to no knowledge of the character or series and shouldn't be posting here

The fact that you believe Vamp is anywhere near as fast as Spiderman proves that you're a bigger imbecile. Vamp has proven that without his muscle reading ability that he can't dodge bullets by himself, that's why he was grazed in the face by Raiden because he couldn't fully read his muscle movements. Vamp isn't a true bullet timer

Don't worry about it, I'll be more than happy to educate you, just let me know if you have any other questions. Just try not to post anymore since you'll look like a tool like Nemebro
Even though the first things you said in three Snake threads something negative about him, for absolutely no reason? And you may or may not, I don't really care about that or any of the verses present in this tread. Its just X character with Y feats.

And the second game as FA said. Spider-Man has bullet timing feats (reactions) but he can't move around at that speed. Sub-sonic movements, movements which outspeed Logan.
Also note your words here; 'Vamp isn't a true bullet timer' though with his ability he is. An ability he had when Snake tagged him.


Now I've refrained from insulting you, I ask the same from you before we fall to childish levels. Good?

Originally posted by BloodRain
Even though the first things you said in three Snake threads something negative about him, for absolutely no reason? And you may or may not, I don't really care about that or any of the verses present in this tread. Its just X character with Y feats.

And the second game as FA said. Spider-Man has bullet timing feats (reactions) but he can't move around at that speed. Sub-sonic movements, movements which outspeed Logan.
Also note your words here; 'Vamp isn't a true bullet timer' though with his ability he is. An ability he had when Snake tagged him.


Now I've refrained from insulting you, I ask the same from you before we fall to childish levels. Good? There is no bullet timing feat in the second game as FA said either, it can be proven frame for frame.

Vamp cannot move at sub sonic speeds either so I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up, at no point in the game did he ever move at sub sonic speeds.

Vamp's abilitiy was partially nullified by Snake's sneaking suit just like it was nullified by Raiden's suit.

Originally posted by Chozone
Objective in the sense that no one has been able to prove otherwise.

Well, objectively there is a lot of fiction. Objectively it's reasonable to assume that if MGS characters did only have normal human stats(since their military they wouldn't) then they are still likely to be stronger than many other universes by virtue of them having guns.

Objectivity is a bold claim, particularly when you're obviously not doing it. Objective people don't go out of their way to call variables pussies since objectively there is nothing to gain from that.

Snake could probably beat him in an arm wrestle. But Logan's main super power consists of NOT dying, so...

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Well, objectively there is a lot of fiction. Objectively it's reasonable to assume that if MGS characters did only have normal human stats(since their military they wouldn't) then they are still likely to be stronger than many other universes by virtue of them having guns.

Objectivity is a bold claim, particularly when you're obviously not doing it. Objective people don't go out of their way to call variables pussies since objectively there is nothing to gain from that. Objectivity comes from the fact that when you look at the MGS universe, their characters and their capabilities and then compare them to other universes using the same set of standards, it's the conclusion you would come by giving an impartial analysis. Everything I've said so far is objective in the same sense that 2+2 is objectively 4

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Snake could probably beat him in an arm wrestle. But Logan's main super power consists of NOT dying, so... And Snakes main super power consist of NOT being able to break a pair of handcuffs and getting beaten on by 3 guards, putting his strength and speed below peak human and making him a Punisher Lite esque character

If you're saying its not a feat for some movement that happened before, it means little to the (compared to that) more major movements afters which compared to the bullets speed is similar. Also that railgun thing. Its said in-game that the railguns are 10 megajoule weapons, meaning a speed over 2,000m/s.

(Sub Sonic means below sonic..) With his ability he gets there.

Is there something that says his suit partially nullifies it?



This is the second time youve been arguing against Snake in a thread where we both agree on the winners.

Wolverine easily.

He speed blitzed Hand ninja recently. Literally was standing in a doorway then swooshed by them, taking guts with him.

He entered solid ground and burst out from underneath in another location in astonishing X-men when the team were fighting DANGER.

He's shown the ability to tangle with and overwhelm Deadpool who has shown insane close quarters speed evisceration feats.

Sure Logan has low showings. But most of them can be argued.

Logan's combination of speed, strength and senses are too much.
If people can show some decent feats of Snake I'm all ears and will comment in an unbiased fashion.

Damn Logan tanked a ute/truck speeding against him on a freeway recently. Crushed in the engine into his guts.

The claws are too much.

Originally posted by BloodRain
If you're saying its not a feat for some movement that happened before, it means little to the (compared to that) more major movements afters which compared to the bullets speed is similar. Also that railgun thing. Its said in-game that the railguns are 10 megajoule weapons, meaning a speed over 2,000m/s.

(Sub Sonic means below sonic..) With his ability he gets there.

Is there something that says his suit partially nullifies it?



This is the second time youve been arguing against Snake in a thread where we both agree on the winners. What you just said made absolutely no sense, if we're still talking about Vamp the fact that he moves BEFORE the gun is fired means it isn't a bullet timing feat. At no point in the series did Vamp ever move with speed similar to a bullet either, he senses trajectory and gets out of the way prior. Nothing more

Megajoules aren't a measure of speed either, a megajoule is a unit of energy and not a measurement of distance or velocity

Tank ammo is the perfect example of this
3VBM7 variation of 125 MM smoothbore ammo muzzle energy of 6.2 mj and move at 1780 m/S

3VBM6 vartiation has a muzzle energy of 5.8 mj but moves at 1800 m/s , in fact it only has a bit more than half of the MJ that the rail gun has but moves at nearly 2000 M/S.

lower muzzle energy yet higher velocity. The fact is that having more muzzle energy or Megajoules doesnt equate to having greater velocity. We saw Fortune shoot Raiden with a rail gun and without any slow motion or camera effects it takes over a second to cover a distance of 100 feet to hit the crates behind him. End of story

But if you find any legitimate bullet timing feats for MGS characters feel free to post them, you won't be able to though, I'm far more knowledgeable on this series than you or anyone on this site and am already aware of all the characters and their feats.

Yes, when you fight Vamp in MGS2 he states that Raiden's muscles are different. He had trouble predicting his movements hence why he was grazed in the face

Talking about Snake, comparing his visible movement speed to the bullets own.


Joules is energy over a distance. Double the MJ, divide the weight, square root it, you get the speed.
And it works for those ones you listed too;
125 MM weighs 3.9kg = (((1780^2)*3.9)/ 2) = 6.178 MJ, so 6.2
Other weighs 3.6kg = (((1800^2)*3.6)/ 2) = 5.832 MJ, so 5.8
Assuming the railgun ammo is 3kg (I've seen them around 1 to 3kg, went for 3 for slower speeds), to reach 10 MJ it would have to be moving at 2,582m/s.
Stating that the railgun produces 10 MJ is giving us an approx speed.
Gives Raiden supersonic reactions if she shot at him anywhere within 25 ft.


And even though Vamp can predict the trajectory, that doesn't automatically mean he could dodge or block bullets with human speed alone.
Also the script states that it was Raiden's Skull Suit which restricts his muscles. I've been reading around and the only suits that say they restrict the users body in any way are this one and those worn by MSF soldiers, ones that apply pressure to the body unlike Snake's. It works in a different way afaik.


Doesn't Snake contend with Laughing Octopus, Solidus, Gray Fox (and other two Cyborg Ninjas) who can dodge or deflect bullets?

Gray Fox is the only Cyborg Ninja Snake took on, he never personally fought Solidus, though he did take on Laughing Octopus, whose tentacles can deflect bullets IIRC

He also killed Arsenal Tengu mooks which were also stated to be capable of blocking bullets (and displayed during gameplay) with their swords

Originally posted by BloodRain
Talking about Snake, comparing his visible movement speed to the bullets own.


Joules is energy over a distance. Double the MJ, divide the weight, square root it, you get the speed.
And it works for those ones you listed too;
125 MM weighs 3.9kg = (((1780^2)*3.9)/ 2) = 6.178 MJ, so 6.2
Other weighs 3.6kg = (((1800^2)*3.6)/ 2) = 5.832 MJ, so 5.8
Assuming the railgun ammo is 3kg (I've seen them around 1 to 3kg, went for 3 for slower speeds), to reach 10 MJ it would have to be moving at 2,582m/s.
Stating that the railgun produces 10 MJ is giving us an approx speed.
Gives Raiden supersonic reactions if she shot at him anywhere within 25 ft.


And even though Vamp can predict the trajectory, that doesn't automatically mean he could dodge or block bullets with human speed alone.
Also the script states that it was Raiden's Skull Suit which restricts his muscles. I've been reading around and the only suits that say they restrict the users body in any way are this one and those worn by MSF soldiers, ones that apply pressure to the body unlike Snake's. It works in a different way afaik.


Doesn't Snake contend with Laughing Octopus, Solidus, Gray Fox (and other two Cyborg Ninjas) who can dodge or deflect bullets? Ok, I'm not sure what instance you're talking about because Snake himself has never bullet timed

I'm aware of what joules are, the point is they aren't a measure of distance and velocity, it's a measure of energy. A single megajoule is equivalent to a 1 ton vehicle moving at 100 MPH. For 10 megajoules it would be equal to a 1 ton vehicle moving 1000MPH which would be 4693 M/s. If you actually factor weight into consideration the ammo is no where near one ton either, which would put it's velocity at a significantly lower pace.

So what have we learned here today?
More mega joules does NOT = a higher velocity. There are other factors to consider

The smoothbore tank gun that was mentioned in MGS has a megajoule output and yet only has a velocity of 1580 M/s, twice the mega joules yet only 75% the speed of your estimate

If Vamp was able to dodge or deflect bullets with speed alone he wouldn't have gotten grazed in the face. The whole instance showed Vamp able to read Raiden's muscles but having difficultly doing so because of his suit which is why he was grazed. People who can dodge or deflect bullets on their own accord do not get grazed in the face because they have a gimmicky ability that failed

I never saw Laughing Octopus deflect bullets, Solidus did thanks to his exo skeleton but Snake never fought him, Raiden did

The only reason why Snake survived against Gray Fox was because Fox wanted to die against him and he's never fought any other Cyborg Ninjas'. Olga was able to deflect bullets but the suit she and the Arsenal Tengu wore amped their senses and reflexes to enhanced ranged, without it they aren't able to do so.

Raiden is the only natural bullet timer in MGS. Everyone else who's actually bullet timed did so because of augmentations or tech.