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I'm a believer, don't get me wrong but i just want to know if god is omipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and all that why would he create us knowing what would transpire? If he knew things would happen before they happen why did he create man only to watch many end up in hell. Another question is if we have free will then why didn't he ask if we wanted to be born in the first place.

I don't expect anyone to have answers to any of these...it's just something i've actually been thinking about for a long time now.

Perhaps you're addressing the question form the wrong direction. Unless God has spoken to you personally everything you know about him is based on what you've been told. Maybe some of the things you've been told are wrong.

The problem of evil (which is basically what you're talking about) goes away very nicely if you assume that God is supremely powerful and supremely knowledgeable rather than omnipotent and omniscience. It also goes away if you assume God can make mistakes.

I am LDS, here is our perspective.

Originally posted by Scarlet315
I'm a believer, don't get me wrong but i just want to know if god is omipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and all that why would he create us knowing what would transpire?
We believe that this life is a preparatory period. We are here to learn to control ourselves in a physical form. The degree to which we learn this is the degree to which we are given additional power and responsibility in Heaven. We believe that learning cannot be forced and that the opportunity to sin is necessary for the learning that is needed. We believe that the fact of sin is the reason for Christ's Atonement. It allows for justice to be satisfied and mercy to be given in regards to our sins. Our sins will also inform us of what we are capable of in eternity. Sometimes the worst punishment for someone is giving them an assignment that they cannot handle.

Originally posted by Scarlet315
If he knew things would happen before they happen why did he create man only to watch many end up in hell.
LDS belief holds that it is extremely difficult to go to an actual hell. The only method of going to hell is to know God and willfully rebel against Him. Everyone goes to heaven, it is just a question of how close to a Christlike life one is willing to live. The closer to that type of life you live, the more power and responsibility you will be given. For some, this might be a hell, in that they would like more power but are unwilling to live the life that would allow such. We do believe that everyone will be content with their place though, so I don't know if there will be personal hells like this or not. But the lowest positions in heaven are compared to this life, so maybe.

Originally posted by Scarlet315
Another question is if we have free will then why didn't he ask if we wanted to be born in the first place.
LDS beliefs hold that we existed in heaven as spirits prior to this mortal life. We believe we were a part of a council in heaven that discussed this life and that we had the option of not coming here. We believe that Satan and his followers did not want to go through this life as it is, and they became "devils" by standing against it. If a person has existed in this life, we believe they chose to do so.

You'll have to excuse Symmetric Chaos, he's one of those people who dismiss problems rather than try to find solutions to them.

Either way. If God modeled and conditioned man to not sin then he'd rob him of his free will. The reason he put the tree in the garden in the first place was to give man the option to sin, because if there's no option to deny God's love then it would be forced, and forced love isn't love, it's rape.

Originally posted by Astner
You'll have to excuse Symmetric Chaos, he's one of those people who dismiss problems rather than try to find solutions to them.

Trying to solve a problem that might not exist in the first place is stupid.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Trying to solve a problem that might not exist in the first place is stupid.
If you claim that the problem isn't a problem in the given context you'll have to provide evidence for why it isn't.

You can't have the good without the bad.

If there was only good choices and guidance amongst the human race then the whole purpose of "free will" would be pointless.
The human race might as well be a race of obedient drones or a hive mind.

The question of why God would bother to create the physical plane with beings making their own choices when the inevitable happened is a good one. Especially when God is all knowing.

And I fall back onto my original comment. I see God as a source of knowledge not some babysitter.

Originally posted by Astner
If you claim that the problem isn't a problem in the given context you'll have to provide evidence for why it isn't.

I didn't claim that problem wasn't a problem, reading comprehension son.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I didn't claim that problem wasn't a problem, reading comprehension son.
That's exactly what you claimed.

i get that god couldn't take away the option to sin without taking away free will, and maybe giving the option guarantees that people will sin.

but my issue with this is he didn't exactly make us neutral towards sinning. if conditioning us not to sin is antithetical to free will then what is giving us a sex drive and then a commandment not to commit adultery? in that case we're almost conditioned to sin.. especially if you take the definition of adultery that jesus gave. and yet in other cases like murder most of us seem to have a strong inclination not to commit that sin. are either of these examples of people being robbed of their free will?

Originally posted by red g jacks
i get that god couldn't take away the option to sin without taking away free will, and maybe giving the option guarantees that people will sin.

but my issue with this is he didn't exactly make us neutral towards sinning. if conditioning us not to sin is antithetical to free will then what is giving us a sex drive and then a commandment not to commit adultery? in that case we're almost conditioned to sin.. especially if you take the definition of adultery that jesus gave. and yet in other cases like murder most of us seem to have a strong inclination not to commit that sin. are either of these examples of people being robbed of their free will?

I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure in regards to this thread's topic being the Catholic/Christian teachings. That it outlines the difference between the level of sins.

The 10 commandments are pretty harsh. There are levels of acceptance in regards to them.

Originally posted by Scarlet315
I'm a believer, don't get me wrong but i just want to know if god is omipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and all that why would he create us knowing what would transpire? If he knew things would happen before they happen why did he create man only to watch many end up in hell. Another question is if we have free will then why didn't he ask if we wanted to be born in the first place.

I don't expect anyone to have answers to any of these...it's just something i've actually been thinking about for a long time now.

I don't believe in your God and the cultist determinations of what is right and wrong in Christianity.

I believe in one thing, sentient evolution. The emergence and transcendence of intelligent beings. Once we became self-aware we became God manifest, a collection of the quantum energy that is existence and therefore is God, able to contemplate itself and make it's will a reality by imagining a desirable probability and working backward from there with the ultimate goal of never-ending transcendence.

God created us so that He could exist.

Originally posted by the ninjak
I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure in regards to this thread's topic being the Catholic/Christian teachings. That it outlines the difference between the level of sins.

The 10 commandments are pretty harsh. There are levels of acceptance in regards to them. i'm not sure what you're saying.

Originally posted by Astner
That's exactly what you claimed.

I never said it definitely wasn't a problem only that that we had to start by establishing that it was a problem. Jumping to a solution to a problem that might not exist (see that word back there "might", you can look it up if you like) is stupid because if it isn't a problem in the first place you'll just be deluding yourself no matter what you decide the answer.

Listen, son, I know being asked to think scares you, but that's okay because no one cares what you think anyway.

IIRC, breaking any of the commandments is a mortal sin according to Catholics, while there are other grave albeit less serious sins called cardinal sins (I think eating meat on a Friday was/is one of them), and lesser, excusable sins are called venial sins, and I think that category includes minor things that are considered sinful but not done consciously or intentionally (nocturnal emissions may or may not apply). Again, this is all IIRC.

Originally posted by Dolos
I don't believe in your God and the cultist determinations of what is right and wrong in Christianity.

I believe in one thing, sentient evolution. The emergence and transcendence of intelligent beings. Once we became self-aware we became God manifest, a collection of the quantum energy that is existence and therefore is God, able to contemplate itself and make it's will a reality by imagining a desirable probability and working backward from there with the ultimate goal of never-ending transcendence.

God created us so that He could exist.
http://www.millenniumforums.com/images/smilies/faceplam.png

Originally posted by Omega Vision
IIRC, breaking any of the commandments is a mortal sin according to Catholics, while there are other grave albeit less serious sins called cardinal sins (I think eating meat on a Friday was/is one of them), and lesser, excusable sins are called venial sins, and I think that category includes minor things that are considered sinful but not done consciously or intentionally (nocturnal emissions may or may not apply). Again, this is all IIRC.

I eat meat everyday, I fart and I burp, and I'm a selfish ******* who doesn't doing anything for anyone. That is something I'm putting and effort into changing, trying to be productive and altruistic, but to better myself and to achieve a true benign existence, not because I'm afraid of a Troll like the Trinity.

Catholics are savages for being so strict, that's too strict, take a long read of Analliese Michelle. The savages got called in by her primitve parents as she was developing sleep apnea, anemia, anorexia, her knees buckled, popped and snapped, her manic schizophrenia accelerated from the exorcism as the savages and primitives that were the Catholic Priests took her off her medication and began getting physical.

She weighed 68 pounds when she died, her last words were, "Mother, I'm scared."

I hate Christianity with a burning passion, and I recognize I'm biased and I try to hide my subconscious' analyses of religious people and their repetitive day-to-day rituals and their almost effort in building a defense against logic and reason as they close their eyes, put their hands up, and go into a pseudo-meditative state during Church lectures and singalongs. I have to bury that part some times.

Dolos, you're off topic.

I have answers: god didnt create us.

that solves the logical contradictions

Originally posted by Dolos
I eat meat everyday, I fart and I burp, and I'm a selfish ******* who doesn't doing anything for anyone. That is something I'm putting and effort into changing, trying to be productive and altruistic, but to better myself and to achieve a true benign existence, not because I'm afraid of a Troll like the Trinity.

Catholics are savages for being so strict, that's too strict, take a long read of Analliese Michelle. The savages got called in by her primitve parents as she was developing sleep apnea, anemia, anorexia, her knees buckled, popped and snapped, her manic schizophrenia accelerated from the exorcism as the savages and primitives that were the Catholic Priests took her off her medication and began getting physical.

She weighed 68 pounds when she died, her last words were, "Mother, I'm scared."

I hate Christianity with a burning passion, and I recognize I'm biased and I try to hide my subconscious' analyses of religious people and their repetitive day-to-day rituals and their almost effort in building a defense against logic and reason as they close their eyes, put their hands up, and go into a pseudo-meditative state during Church lectures and singalongs. I have to bury that part some times.
What exactly in my post prompted this response?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
What exactly in my post prompted this response?

The mere proposition that such harmless acts as those are considered by many Catholics as 'sins against the Father' registered on an emotional level.

It seems that the more extreme and less talked about Catholic Cults in suburban Europe and America have caused a great deal of superstition, fear, and harmful paranoia as well as total scientific illiteracy. To the point where children are home-schooled and fed hogwash.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
What exactly in my post prompted this response?
Why is it so difficult for some atheists to stay on-topic in a Christian thread? Stay on-topic and don't derail the thread by posting- or prompt others to posting off-topic jargon by quoting off-topic replies.

If you're really interested then send him a personal message, this isn't the off-topic section.

Originally posted by Astner
Why is it so difficult for some atheists to stay on-topic in a Christian thread? Stay on-topic and don't derail the thread by posting- or prompt others to posting off-topic jargon by quoting off-topic replies.

If you're really interested then send him a personal message, this isn't the off-topic section.

I apologize.

Originally posted by Astner
Why is it so difficult for some atheists to stay on-topic in a Christian thread? Stay on-topic and don't derail the thread by posting- or prompt others to posting off-topic jargon by quoting off-topic replies.

If you're really interested then send him a personal message, this isn't the off-topic section.
Lol calm down and stop being a backseat mod.

Your post here is certainly off topic, and I find it interesting that you mention I'm an atheist as if that has some relevance anent off-topicness. You can report me to an actual mod if you think I've violated some rule, otherwise save your sanctimony and condescension for someone who cares. (Hint: no one does.)

Originally posted by Scarlet315
...if god is omipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and all that why would he create us knowing what would transpire? Because God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Unless God has spoken to you personally everything you know about him is based on what you've been told. Maybe some of the things you've been told are wrong. Word.

Originally posted by Astner
You'll have to excuse Symmetric Chaos, he's one of those people who dismiss problems rather than try to find solutions to them.

Either way. If God modeled and conditioned man to not sin then he'd rob him of his free will. The reason he put the tree in the garden in the first place was to give man the option to sin, because if there's no option to deny God's love then it would be forced, and forced love isn't love, it's rape.

Love is something you feel for a person or thing. Whether that person wants you to feel it or not is inconsequential. The whole idea of rejecting someone's love is silly. Fundamentally flawed concept. Reciprocation of love is the issue.

Creating someone without the ability to tell "right" from "wrong" and then punishing them for doing the "wrong" thing is grotesque. If you can't measure any ethical impact of your actions, what do you have to go by to make decisions really? That's rhetorical, the answer is nothing. And if you can't make decisions based on at least your subjective idea of "wrong" or "right", even if it may be as fundamental as you thinking it is "right" to continue living and therefore eating, do you really have free will at all? (Rhetorical. Answer: No)

Additionally, why do people keep saying that there can't be free will without sin. That's ridiculous. Sin is doing something that goes against God's rules (in theory). God could just decide not to make these rules in the first place and nothing much at all would change. You could still make decisions like "I'll have sex with this person of my gender" or "I won't have sex with this person of my gender" without either being a sin.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
IIRC, breaking any of the commandments is a mortal sin according to Catholics, while there are other grave albeit less serious sins called cardinal sins (I think eating meat on a Friday was/is one of them), and lesser, excusable sins are called venial sins, and I think that category includes minor things that are considered sinful but not done consciously or intentionally (nocturnal emissions may or may not apply). Again, this is all IIRC.

This didn't sound correct, so I checked with Wikipedia, and it isn't. Mortal sins can also be absolved, you do however have to confess to them by name during confession. There seem to be however some acts that can get you excommunicated, which is Catholic speak for "you're ****ed". Venial sins apparently don't have to be confessed to specifically.

And really, why would Wikipedia lie to me?

Originally posted by Bardock42
This didn't sound correct, so I checked with Wikipedia, and it isn't. Mortal sins can also be absolved, you do however have to confess to them by name during confession. There seem to be however some acts that can get you excommunicated, which is Catholic speak for "you're ****ed". Venial sins apparently don't have to be confessed to specifically.

And really, why would Wikipedia lie to me?
I didn't mention the confession-absolution aspect because that wasn't pertinent to setting my IIRC categories.

I was born Catholic after all, we're born with knowledge of what confession is, though to my knowledge I've never been to confession.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I didn't mention the confession-absolution aspect because that wasn't pertinent to setting my IIRC categories.

I was born Catholic after all, we're born with knowledge of what confession is, though to my knowledge I've never been to confession.

Ha, I have been! Out-catholic-ed you!

Originally posted by Scarlet315
I'm a believer, don't get me wrong but i just want to know if god is omipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and all that why would he create us knowing what would transpire? If he knew things would happen before they happen why did he create man only to watch many end up in hell. Another question is if we have free will then why didn't he ask if we wanted to be born in the first place.

I don't expect anyone to have answers to any of these...it's just something i've actually been thinking about for a long time now.

The only sensible answer is "God works in mysterious ways"; which is only as sensible as you personally give credit to.

The only sensible answer is that God's a prick and like's f*cking with us. Good on him, that's what omnipotent powers are for.

Originally posted by Regret
I am LDS, here is our perspective.


We believe that this life is a preparatory period. We are here to learn to control ourselves in a physical form. The degree to which we learn this is the degree to which we are given additional power and responsibility in Heaven. We believe that learning cannot be forced and that the opportunity to sin is necessary for the learning that is needed. We believe that the fact of sin is the reason for Christ's Atonement. It allows for justice to be satisfied and mercy to be given in regards to our sins. Our sins will also inform us of what we are capable of in eternity. Sometimes the worst punishment for someone is giving them an assignment that they cannot handle.


LDS belief holds that it is extremely difficult to go to an actual hell. The only method of going to hell is to know God and willfully rebel against Him. Everyone goes to heaven, it is just a question of how close to a Christlike life one is willing to live. The closer to that type of life you live, the more power and responsibility you will be given. For some, this might be a hell, in that they would like more power but are unwilling to live the life that would allow such. We do believe that everyone will be content with their place though, so I don't know if there will be personal hells like this or not. But the lowest positions in heaven are compared to this life, so maybe.


LDS beliefs hold that we existed in heaven as spirits prior to this mortal life. We believe we were a part of a council in heaven that discussed this life and that we had the option of not coming here. We believe that Satan and his followers did not want to go through this life as it is, and they became "devils" by standing against it. If a person has existed in this life, we believe they chose to do so.

I enjoyed reading all the comments. Like i said i've been thinking about this stuff for a while. I actually heard this quote before about maybe we already decided in heaven about going through this life. The part about not wanting to partake in this life and becoming "devils" i have a hard time believing

My life isn't perfect but it really could be worse. I'm currently a med student and all that, have my health, all appendages...but i'll be honest if we were told that we would have to live a life, follow rules that if we break we end up in hell, i would have probably, most likely chose no life at all. I don't compare myself to owlman's attitude about ending it all, but i wouldn't want to see anyone, including myself go to hell and this life is at times hard enough on its own.

Originally posted by Scarlet315
I enjoyed reading all the comments. Like i said i've been thinking about this stuff for a while. I actually heard this quote before about maybe we already decided in heaven about going through this life. The part about not wanting to partake in this life and becoming "devils" i have a hard time believing

My life isn't perfect but it really could be worse. I'm currently a med student and all that, have my health, all appendages...but i'll be honest if we were told that we would have to live a life, follow rules that if we break we end up in hell, i would have probably, most likely chose no life at all. I don't compare myself to owlman's attitude about ending it all, but i wouldn't want to see anyone, including myself go to hell and this life is at times hard enough on its own.

I can understand your position. All the same, LDS believe that Man is the immature form of deity. Gaining a physical form and learning the lessons that occur here are necessary for becoming like God. Not wanting to come into this life is like saying, "I don't want the pain that is an education." We can't survive in the US comfortably without, at a minimum, a high school education. The more education we receive the more possibilities are generally opened to us. Also, never obtaining a body would result in an eternity of the exact same thing, with no opportunity to ever improve our situation.

Because He is the Lord our savior. We fell and can now rise again. Nuff said.