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Who would win in a battle to the death?
Each combatant is in their prime.
Setting: Open Field, Dantooine

Team 2, methinks.

Team 2 lol.

Team 2 in an almost stomp.

Theres no almost stomp here, but I do think Team 2 wins.

What era Yoda and Luke? That makes all the difference.

Peak era.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres no almost stomp here, but I do think Team 2 wins.

Yes there is. Peak Luke= Peak Anakin, the same Peak Anakin who was able to demolish someone like Dooku in seconds. He is a head above all combatants. Luke would down Krayt in 30 seconds tops, then mop up a slightly depleted Bane with Yoda. This scenario is a stomp. Luke's stamina will let him down Krayt and still be fairly fresh.

Or

Yoda takes down Krayt in...eh 45 seconds-minute, then goes to assist Luke in taking down an exhausted Bane. This scenario isn't a stomp.

Krayt's the weak link here, and they're up against two of the most powerful Jedi to ever live. If you replaced him with say, Sidious, then we'd have a real interesting match.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes there is. Peak Luke= Peak Anakin, the same Peak Anakin who was able to demolish someone like Dooku in seconds. He is a head above all combatants. Luke would down Krayt in 30 seconds tops, then mop up a slightly depleted Bane with Yoda. This scenario is a stomp. Luke's stamina will let him down Krayt and still be fairly fresh.

Or

Yoda takes down Krayt in...eh 45 seconds-minute, then goes to assist Luke in taking down an exhausted Bane. This scenario isn't a stomp.

Krayt's the weak link here, and they're up against two of the most powerful Jedi to ever live. If you replaced him with say, Sidious, then we'd have a real interesting match.

Guess I kinda overestimated Krayt for this thread.

Prime Luke is overrated. He has no stellar lightsaber feats that would put him much above Bane or Krayt and he barely utilises his Force powers in combat or offensively. He is definitely one of the most powerful beings ever but he's not going to be stomping either combatant. Dude had trouble with Lumiya as well as plenty of other random fights. An all-pwning Force-God he is not.

On the other hand, Krayt is underrated. He's at least on or above Dooku level and we all know Yoda isn't taking out Dooku inside of a minute.

Luke and Yoda waste the Sith lords.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Prime Luke is overrated. He has no stellar lightsaber feats that would put him much above Bane or Krayt and he barely utilises his Force powers in combat or offensively. He is definitely one of the most powerful beings ever but he's not going to be stomping either combatant. Dude had trouble with Lumiya as well as plenty of other random fights. An all-pwning Force-God he is not.

He's stated to be on par with what Prime Anakin would have been. That's good enough for me. He doesn't need to be an all-pwning force God to down Krayt in 30 seconds, just prime ROTS Anakin level.



I'm not underrating Krayt. Anakin when in the zone downed Dooku in the space of 30 seconds if not less. Luke could likely replicate that feat. He's got the strength, the stamina, hell he even has Anakin's style; Djem So.

And yeah, I can see Yoda downing Dooku in a minute if he's going all out. Hell Yoda going all out disarmed Sidious in what a minute-minute? A minute and a half? I'd say 2 minutes tops.

The actual quote is a bit different. And his actual combat performances are quite a bit less than that lofty extreme. Unless you think he's literally twice as powerful as Sidious.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The actual quote is a bit different. And his actual combat performances are quite a bit less than that lofty extreme. Unless you think he's literally twice as powerful as Sidious.

Hell no, I think that's the dumbest thing Lucas could have said. I doubt any Jedi or Sith in the verse could ever dream of taking on 2 Sidiouses. But I think Luke is more or less when focused ~ Zoneakin in raw swordsmanship.

Based on?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Based on?

The quote that he's what Anakin could have become.

That doesn't translate into swordsmanship. It's an ambiguous statement without context and ignores his actual feats. For all we know Lucas was talking about his quality as a person, not a warrior. Even if he was, that still doesn't translate into swordsmanship.

Whats funny is that you're the guy who was lecturing me about relying solely on quotes a few days ago.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That doesn't translate into swordsmanship. It's an ambiguous statement without context and ignores his actual feats. For all we know Lucas was talking about his quality as a person, not a warrior. Even if he was, that still doesn't translate into swordsmanship.

Perhaps, but defeating Darth Sidious before you even hit your prime comes to mind in terms of his feats. Also in terms of force feats he has
Absorbed turbolaser blasts from AT-ATs, and knocked them over.

Destroying the Fortress of Darth Vader

Manipulation of a micro black hole.

Twenty Lightsabers at once feat as of NJO. (Still not peak of his power)

Electric Judgement.

Stated that when hunkered down not even the black hole at the center of the galaxy could move him (possibly hyperbole but still).



I'm not relying solely on quotes. Luke has significant feats to back up his claim. To rank him with ROTS Zoneakin in sabers really doesn't seem far-fetched to me, especially considering Zoneakin isn't even Anakin with maxxed potential.

Originally posted by Nephthys
On the other hand, Krayt is underrated. He's at least on or above Dooku level Based on what is Krayt superior to Dooku?

Originally posted by Nephthys
For all we know Lucas was talking about his quality as a person

Lol, I should have put Jedi there. As in Luke became the great Jedi that Anakin never really did.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Perhaps, but defeating Darth Sidious before you even hit your prime comes to mind in terms of his feats. Also in terms of force feats he has
Absorbed turbolaser blasts from AT-ATs, and knocked them over.

Destroying the Fortress of Darth Vader

Manipulation of a micro black hole.

Twenty Lightsabers at once feat as of NJO. (Still not peak of his power)

Electric Judgement.

Stated that when hunkered down not even the black hole at the center of the galaxy could move him (possibly hyperbole but still).

Beating Sidious has always been ambiguous due to Leia possibly helping him. The idea that he legitimately beat Sidious has always been unbelievable.

And the twenty lightsabers happened during Battle Meld.

As for everything else, what exactly there makes you think he can pwn either Bane or Krayt? Or would? As I said, Luke pretty much never offensively uses the Force. He's Yoda's disciple after all and Yoda flat-out told him that a Jedi shouldn't use the Force for attack. And when he has, he does not 'pwn' his opponents. He certainly won't pwn opponents of this calibur.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I'm not relying solely on quotes. Luke has significant feats to back up his claim. To rank him with ROTS Zoneakin in sabers really doesn't seem far-fetched to me, especially considering Zoneakin isn't even Anakin with maxxed potential.

Zonakin is extremely iffy. It only happens once and we could easily call that occurrence akin to the massive boost that Luke got from embracing his rage. It's a one-time thing. Anakin doesn't ever show that level of ease with anyone after that and Dooku was likely tired as **** by that point. Yes the text says he rejuvenated himself but we don't know to what degree. The idea that he went from nearly spent to 100% inside of a few seconds is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Galan007
Based on what is Krayt superior to Dooku?


Well, let's see. A young Krayt was at least on par with post-RotS Obi-Wan in sabers, losing only because Obi-Wan was better in the force. A young-ish Krayt was able to solo a ship of Vong.

And then he became so strong in the force he could raise himself from the dead, use shatterpoints (including using a variation of the healing power to kill someone he laid hands on), and had powerful force illusions. Even his second-in-command Wyyrlock was able to kill Darth Andeddu, the strongest Sith of *his* time and someone Dooku considered a great and powerful sith of old, at Andeddu's own speciality of sith sorcery, and Krayt could overcome Wyyrlock's sith sorcery illusions where the master of sorcery failed, and deflect force lightning with his bare hand. He also killed Emperor Fel's personal bodyguard of Imperial Knights in about two seconds while surrounded.

Krayt was also effective in the him-and-Luke vs Abeloth fight.


Between illusions and shatterpoints/dark transfer, I'd say he's better than Dooku in the force, and he's a very good saber master too- even if we assume he didn't improve in sabers at all from his Obi-wan fight, he got much stronger in the force and gained shatterpoints which'd increase his threat in melee alone.


Krayt is quite similar in level to Bane IMO, while Wyyrlock is a better comparison for Dooku.


Team 2 wins, but more because Luke's a very strong link rather than Team 1 having any weak links.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Beating Sidious has always been ambiguous due to Leia possibly helping him. The idea that he legitimately beat Sidious has always been unbelievable.


It wasn't legit, but at the same time, still impressive for a not prime Luke.



Again, still not Prime Luke.



The same Yoda who said 'Destroy the Sith we must'....




Prove Dooku was tired as hell. Seriously, it's stated he was rejuvenated it's up to you to prove that he wasn't.

Again, Zoneakin isn't even top Anakin. You're gonna have a hard time convincing me and the rest of the board that Luke isn't ROTS Zoneakin level. Not NJO Luke, not DE Luke, but Prime Luke should be Prime Anakin level...I'd argue he's a bit below because of the blood being diluted, but I'd see him as being approximately ROTS Zoneakin level.

Luke definitely spend more time training force powers than Anakin. Anakin was still almost solely a saber monkey.

Originally posted by Q99
Luke definitely spend more time training force powers than Anakin. Anakin was still almost solely a saber monkey.

No necessarily. Still Luke and Yoda win this as each are better than either of the Sith.

Originally posted by Vensai
No necessarily. Still Luke and Yoda win this as each are better than either of the Sith.

Anakin did some force pushing and such, but he didn't really get into much force offense until he got his armor. I've seen Luke do a good deal more.

And yea. Yoda vs either individually is a hard fight that I'd give to Yoda, and Luke even more-so.

Has it become custom to hinge the outcome of battles on character idiosyncrasies? You're all but scripting the fight on Luke's strained morality to leverage a more favorable outcome for Bane.

The bottom line is that we have seen plenty of instances of what Luke is capable of when the circumstances demand it and he's simply above and beyond Bane by a considerable margin. He's just better.



That is very clearly what the text indicates and your threshold for what does and what does not constitute ridiculous continues to astound.

In a mythology where characters cause planet-wide catastrophe with mere utterances, snap their fingers and mind-rape "the galaxy's strongest Jedi!!1!" and keep torrential downpours at bay with a meter long stick, how on earth is rapid rejuvenation "ridiculous"?

Try replacing "Dooku" with "Bane" and I think it will endear the passage to you. 313

does anyone know which book lumiya and luke first fought, and perhaps a page number?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It wasn't legit, but at the same time, still impressive for a not prime Luke.

Again, still not Prime Luke.

Okay, but not enough to say he could pwn Bane or Krayt.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The same Yoda who said 'Destroy the Sith we must'....

And then did nothing more than push Sidious across a desk. Where was his carrier-ship class TK in that battle exactly? Either way, perhaps Yoda changed his philosophy after that, it doesn't come in to how he taught Luke. You can't argue with a direct freaking quote.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Prove Dooku was tired as hell. Seriously, it's stated he was rejuvenated it's up to you to prove that he wasn't.

No, it says that power flowed into him and that afterwards the weight of his years fell away, so he recovered enough to support himself with the Force. However it does not say that he was completely recovered, or that he wasn't tired. He could easily have recovered just enough to support himself. Anakin meanwhile was described as constantly getting stronger throughout the fight and he did fight Dooku in that state for a time which could have tired Dooku out again.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Again, Zoneakin isn't even top Anakin. You're gonna have a hard time convincing me and the rest of the board that Luke isn't ROTS Zoneakin level. Not NJO Luke, not DE Luke, but Prime Luke should be Prime Anakin level...I'd argue he's a bit below because of the blood being diluted, but I'd see him as being approximately ROTS Zoneakin level.

The idea that Luke would be able to beat Dooku simply by deciding to like Anakin did is blatantly silly. He has fought less powerful opponents and not beaten them with that level of ease.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Has it become custom to hinge the outcome of battles on character idiosyncrasies? You're all but scripting the fight on Luke's strained morality to leverage a more favorable outcome for Bane.

No, just pointing out that Luke hasn't ever pwned someone with the Force in an actual fight before, therefore he lacks those feats. And it's not as if Luke is an unknown quantity, he's the most exposed character in Star Wars after all.

Is it so hard to believe that Luke simply isn't that versed in offensive Force-use considering he is a Jedi, his track-record of relying on his lightsaber in duels and that he was taught not to attack with the Force? Not to mention that epiphany he had with Mara Jade about not doing big flashy uses of the Force.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The bottom line is that we have seen plenty of instances of what Luke is capable of when the circumstances demand it and he's simply above and beyond Bane by a considerable margin. He's just better.

I've never disagreed that Luke is Bane's superior, however you are seriously overblowing the degree. Luke does not have the lightsaber or Force feats to support a stomp of Bane.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That is very clearly what the text indicates and your threshold for what does and what does not constitute ridiculous continues to astound.

In a mythology where characters cause planet-wide catastrophe with mere utterances, snap their fingers and mind-rape "the galaxy's strongest Jedi!!1!" and keep torrential downpours at bay with a meter long stick, how on earth is rapid rejuvenation "ridiculous"?

Try replacing "Dooku" with "Bane" and I think it will endear the passage to you. 313

Internal consistency and suspension of disbelief are different. If all it takes is a second to recover completely then Jedi would have virtually limitless stamina and would never get tired, despite the countless examples of Jedi being in a similar situation to Dooku and not recovering that fast. If Qui-Gon could have instantly recovered completely then why does he collapse on the floor panting after his first fight with Maul? That's a G-canon example clashing with your interpretation right there. And didn't it take Luke like half a day to recover from an ordeal in Apocolypse? And several minutes from using illusions in Swarm War? Bane was ****ing wiped after he fought that room of technobeasts. I can keep going with this.

Which comes down to conflating idiosyncrasy with inability. I've argued both sides of this before, so what you're saying is nothing new.

If this fight were taking place in an actual novel, then I'm sure it would consist of characteristic Star Wars tropes like Power Seepage and Near-Villain Victories before Bane insulted Luke's mother, prompting him to make with teh smackdown.

But we're talking about what Luke is capable of and what he's capable of is reducing Bane to tears.



Not really. Luke has dismantled castles without benefit of a Force nexus, overpowered Force titans imbued with the energy of countless drones, and routinely embarrasses the galaxy's foremost Eldritch Abomination. Darth Bane is a chump in comparison, brah.



Please do. But the moment we start introducing G-canon clashes, I'mma dismember Bane, Nihilus, and Vitiate with impunity just to illustrate how very lost your cause is. excellent

No one here is taking into account that dooku or sidious vs yoda was yoda in his prime. These fights were in his last stages of life. In his 300s, 400s or 500s he could smash dooku and defeat sidious with moderate ease! Come on! Yoda prime is a tank and skywalker prime is better than that!!!

any objections, no beacuse you can't! Jedi stomp!

The Jedi Path, Shadow Hunter, and Yoda: Dark Rendezvous corroborate the idea that Yoda has diminished in his old age.

Sorry in advance for the mega-post. I usually hate typing this much.

Originally posted by Q99
Well, let's see. A young Krayt was at least on par with post-RotS Obi-Wan in sabers, losing only because Obi-Wan was better in the force. I've lost count of how many times Dooku has owned Kenobi-- whereas Kenobi owned Krayt(then A'Sharad) in front of his own people.

So if we are using Kenobi as our gauge, then Dooku>>>Krayt.

Originally posted by Q99
A young-ish Krayt was able to solo a ship of Vong. He utilized force lightning to kill them, iirc. Definitely not above Dooku's ability.

Originally posted by Q99
And then he became so strong in the force he could raise himself from the dead, use shatterpoints (including using a variation of the healing power to kill someone he laid hands on), and had powerful force illusions. As awesome as it was, Krayt raising himself from the dead took a great deal of time. Therefore, it is an inconsequential ability in a versus battle.

Forgot he gained the ability to see Shatterpoints. However, that still isn't a sure-fire path to victory, unless there happens to be a specific Shatterpoint that can affect the outcome of the battle/person-- and Shatterpoints are always changing, and never constant.

Force Drain is likely the best option Krayt has over Dooku. However, it's possible that Dooku might be able to negate most of the negative affects of Force Drain by utilizing the living force to heal himself. Additionally, Force Drain seemed to require: a.) Krayt to physically touch the thing he wanted to drain-- he may not ever get that close to Dooku, and b.) a good deal of time to complete-- something Dooku would not give him.

Dunno how much of a factor force illusions would play(if any)..? He used the ability a few times, but meh...

Originally posted by Q99
He also killed Emperor Fel's personal bodyguard of Imperial Knights in about two seconds while surrounded. I was never overly impressed by the IK's, tbh. Dooku would obliterate them.

Originally posted by Q99
Krayt was also effective in the him-and-Luke vs Abeloth fight. Yeah, he Drained the shit out of Abeloth. He couldn't have done it w/o Luke pinning it down, though(and vice versa.) T'was a great feat nonetheless... Although the Drain still required Krayt to physically touch Abeloth, iirc.

Either way, given some of Dooku's uber feats(fighting Yoda nigh-evenly on a few occasions, being stated as one of two Jedi capable of out-sparring Mace, tooling multiple Nightsisters+Asajj while blinded, etc.) I don't believe the Abeloth instance is enough to put Krayt above Dooku.

Originally posted by Q99
Between illusions and shatterpoints/dark transfer, I'd say he's better than Dooku in the force, and he's a very good saber master too- even if we assume he didn't improve in sabers at all from his Obi-wan fight, he got much stronger in the force and gained shatterpoints which'd increase his threat in melee alone. Krayt learned some amazing force abilities, no doubt about it. However, the only force powers I could see him negatively affecting Dooku with in a battle are Force Drain and Shatterpoint-- but like I said, those abilities are extremely circumstantial, and certainly do not equate to auto-wins.

Also remember that Dooku was no putz with the force either:
" called upon the Force, gathering it to himself and wrapping himself within it. He breathed it in and held it whirling inside his heart, clenching down upon it until he could feel the spin of the galaxy around him. Until he became the axis of the Universe. This was the real power of the dark side, the power he had suspected even as a boy, had sought through his long life until Darth Sidious had shown him that it had been his all along. The dark side didn't bring him to the center of the universe. It made him the center. He drew power into his innermost being until the Force itself existed only to serve his will." - RotS

---

At any rate, I could buy-off on the notion that Krayt is more skilled than Dooku with the force alone. However, in a 'sabers only' and/or 'all-out' scenario, I don't think Krayt's done nearly enough to put him over Dooku. He could likely give Dooku a very good fight, but he's not winning imo.

Krayt and Wyyrlok are both probably greater scholars of the dark side than is the Count, but as a swordsman and general duelist, he comes off looking better.

^ I agree.

Once Dooku learned how to manifest force lightning, he really seemed to stop giving a phuck about learning new dark side abilities(other than using it to massively increase his overall power, obviously.)

Well, it is strongly implied via Dark Rendezvous that Dooku was educated in esoteric Sith powers... but the movies insist that Force lightning is about the darkest you get lol.

"No, just pointing out that Luke hasn't ever pwned someone with the Force in an actual fight before, therefore he lacks those feats.. And it's not as if Luke is an unknown quantity, he's the most exposed character in Star Wars after all.

Is it so hard to believe that Luke simply isn't that versed in offensive Force-use considering he is a Jedi, his track-record of relying on his lightsaber in duels and that he was taught not to attack with the Force? Not to mention that epiphany he had with Mara Jade about not doing big flashy uses of the Force.
"Nephthys

r u saying luke cant pwn ppl with the force, or that he chooses not to. i feel that hes proven he can, he just doesnt due to self imposed limitations. 1 of my favorite examples is from dark nest 1 when he fights welk.

"luke righted himself but he was still moving in slow motion, and welk was already coming again. Luke reached out in the force, bringing his thumb and forefinger togeather."

"Welks lipless mouth fell open. Dire gurgling sounds began to rise from his throat-and then luke remembered alemas sacrifice of the membrosia giver. had he grown that casual about killing? so accustomed to the power he wielded that he would use it to kill when he had other means to defend himself?"

"Luke opened his fingers and released Welk."

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well, it is strongly implied via Dark Rendezvous that Dooku was educated in esoteric Sith powers... but the movies insist that Force lightning is about the darkest you get lol. Yeah, and in the comic series Republic, Dooku acquired Darth Andeddu's holocron-- so he at least *seemed* interested in learning about some of the more arcane Sith teachings.

To bad that side of Dooku was never extrapolated on. :/

He seemed relatively helpless against Mother Talzin's sorcery iirc.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which comes down to conflating idiosyncrasy with inability. I've argued both sides of this before, so what you're saying is nothing new.

If this fight were taking place in an actual novel, then I'm sure it would consist of characteristic Star Wars tropes like Power Seepage and Near-Villain Victories before Bane insulted Luke's mother, prompting him to make with teh smackdown.

But we're talking about what Luke is capable of and what he's capable of is reducing Bane to tears.

Again you miss my point. I did not say that he was necessarily unable, only that he has not, therefore we cannot say that he is able. Bane has plenty of feats of pwning someone with the Force. Luke, not so much. Other than an unknown like Welk I suppose. And his feats aside from that not enough to say that he could pimpslap a foe like Bane around.

No. he isn't.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not really. Luke has dismantled castles without benefit of a Force nexus, overpowered Force titans imbued with the energy of countless drones, and routinely embarrasses the galaxy's foremost Eldritch Abomination. Darth Bane is a chump in comparison, brah.

As I recall, Luke overpowered neither Unuthul or Abeloth with the Force. Unuthul has little in the way of impressive showings beyond 'empowered by billions!' which as Vitiate absorbing 8,000 Sith Lords showed does not necessarily mean that their power is literally multiplied. And Abeloth he had help in all? of their fights?

Also can I get some info on Luke dismantling Vader's castle? IIRC he did it brick by brick, which while impressive is more a feat of stamina that actual power.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Please do. But the moment we start introducing G-canon clashes, I'mma dismember Bane, Nihilus, and Vitiate with impunity just to illustrate how very lost your cause is. excellent

Do it. I ****ing double dare you bro. It'll be a laugh to see how you can possibly twist something to do with them into a G-canon clash.

Neph, you know as well as I do that all the stuff about Luke having a hard time is because, "Luke meets Lumiya on a plateau. Luke lifts his hand and defeats her with the Force" makes for piss-poor reading.

Then don't have Luke meet her on a plateau. When you have an overpowered protagonist, don't make him fight like a moron against less powerful opponents to create artificial tension. Either have actual threats or write around the issue.

Well, welcome to a lot of the SW EU. Shitty writers mixed with good ones (Zahn)

Hell, next thing they will do is have that bi*** who wrote Twilight write a book for it to make moar moneys.

Besides, their, "Actual Threats" are things like Abeloth. Who is so ridiculously ridiculous that it breaks the Suspension of Disbelief.
Or Nihilus. Again, stupid. Vitiate, stupid. See a pattern here?

Luke has got solid experience of fighting crab boys, while Yoda lacks such experience. But, if Krayt is without armor, then Yoda can fight him, while Luke - Bane.


It is prime Luke by all accounts.

Except all of those were pre-Mustafar Kenobi, often well before, and we've seen how good late-CW Kenobi was getting against the Maul brothers and such. Kenobi's biggest probably against Dooku wasn't pure sabers but more his lack of force defense. A'Sharad did well against post-RotS Kenobi, while he was still in top condition, and while he was protecting baby Luke.


And Krayt is significantly more powerful than A'Sharad was. We know growing stronger in the force aids saber combat.



Originally posted by The_Tempest
Krayt and Wyyrlok are both probably greater scholars of the dark side than is the Count, but as a swordsman and general duelist, he comes off looking better.

Even though he, by all appearances, is better than the Kenobi who beat Anakin in lightsabers?



Here's a chain for you: Krayt was easily overpowering Cade Skywalker in Claws of the Dragon without trying hard, shortly after he beat Darth Talon and Darth Nihl.

Talon on her own was about equal to Imperial Knight Draco.

Draco was part of Princess Fel's rescue force. During which the four of them faced about 8 Sith, and beat them outnumberd 2:1. Ok, so Draco took down two sith, not that impressive yet, right? Then there were a half-dozen more Sith who were coming so Draco decided to hold them off on his own, and killed all six solo.


People like Draco and Ganner Krieg and Shado Vao and Darth Talon and Nihl find no problem taking down a half-dozen full Sith or Jedi (as the case may be, depending on side) on their own, yet that level, or even Cade's level which was higher, clearly isn't enough to even provide Krayt with a challenge.

Nor for that matter was Celeste Morne, a century-old KotoR era Master who was drawing upon the power of the Muur talisman for additional strength, and who could only keep up a degrading defensive position.


Heck, the only one to give Krayt an even matchup in sabers in the entire series, was Wyyrlock.


The throne room fight is something I don't think Dooku has an equal of. Facing the Emperor's Personal Guard of Knights, including their leader, his Cousin. The plan of the Knights was literally to fight off over a dozen sith and all soldiers present, and escape.

And, with Krayt surrounded, the four of them lasted maybe, maybe three seconds. That's some Palpatine-stuff right there.

Originally posted by Q99
Except all of those were pre-Mustafar Kenobi,Dooku owned Kenobi during RotS twice. Whereas, A'Sharad was owned by Kenobi.

Trying to use Kenobi as a gauge really doesn't help your case.

Originally posted by Q99
And Krayt is significantly more powerful than A'Sharad was. We know growing stronger in the force aids saber combat. He'd better be, as Dooku was *also* significantly more powerful than A'Sharad-- as evident by the fact that Dooku owned Kenobi, who owned A'Sharad.

Originally posted by Q99
Even though he, by all appearances, is better than the Kenobi who beat Anakin in lightsabers? Better than Kenobi in what area, exactly? The force? Absolutely. A better duelist, though? I certainly haven't seen proof of that.

...And Kenobi didn't beat Anakin in sabers, btw. Anakin's own arrogance is what beat him. Saber-wise they stalemated, but that's neither here nor there.

Originally posted by Q99
Here's a chain for you: Krayt was easily overpowering Cade Skywalker in Claws of the Dragon without trying hard, shortly after he beat Darth Talon and Darth Nihl.

Talon on her own was about equal to Imperial Knight Draco.

Draco was part of Princess Fel's rescue force. During which the four of them faced about 8 Sith, and beat them outnumberd 2:1. Ok, so Draco took down two sith, not that impressive yet, right? Then there were a half-dozen more Sith who were coming so Draco decided to hold them off on his own, and killed all six solo.

People like Draco and Ganner Krieg and Shado Vao and Darth Talon and Nihl find no problem taking down a half-dozen full Sith or Jedi (as the case may be, depending on side) on their own, yet that level, or even Cade's level which was higher, clearly isn't enough to even provide Krayt with a challenge. The IK's really did nothing of note that I recall, and the best thing Nihl ever did was kill a *featless* descendant of Skywalker. Impressive to be sure, but Dooku has battled Yoda nigh-evenly. Next to that, Talon and Nihl are less than nothing.

Originally posted by Q99
Nor for that matter was Celeste Morne, a century-old KotoR era Master who was drawing upon the power of the Muur talisman for additional strength, and who could only keep up a degrading defensive position. Lotta words. How do Morne's feats compare to anyone mentioned?

Originally posted by Q99
Heck, the only one to give Krayt an even matchup in sabers in the entire series, was Wyyrlock. Great. The only one to give Dooku an even matchup in sabers(aside from Zonakin, obviously) was Yoda-- master of ALL forms of lightsaber combat. none

Originally posted by Q99
The throne room fight is something I don't think Dooku has an equal of. Facing the Emperor's Personal Guard of Knights, including their leader, his Cousin. The plan of the Knights was literally to fight off over a dozen sith and all soldiers present, and escape.

And, with Krayt surrounded, the four of them lasted maybe, maybe three seconds. That's some Palpatine-stuff right there. Palpatine-stuff? Now you're going a bit overboard. Afaik, the IK's don't even have feats to put them near Ventress' or Grievous' skill level(both of whom Dooku schooled regularly, btw)-- so I'm not sure how soloing a few of them=Palpatine-stuff..?

Let me also point out that Krayt fought with Abeloth between shadows.

One's power between shadows is purely based on force ability, and Krayt was quite strong in that fight.




And, y'know, force illusion, the one where if it works the target stands there helplessly.

With Dark Transfer all he has to do is grab someone and they are dead. It's how he killed Cade, and I wouldn't call that too circumstantial.

And shatterpoint, shatterpoint lets a user see weaknesses in combat in general, the point where you strike to break someone's guard, the wound you make to cause your opponent to lose footing, etc.. Give a saber user shatterpoint and their win percentage purely with sabers, no force abilities, will go up.




Oh sure, and taking on large numbers of Sith or Jedi at once count for nothing, huh?

Don't forget Nihl also took Wolf Sazen's arm, and Wolf Sazen is *far* from featless.

We've seen unnamed Sith kill Jedi masters and then attack Sazen with numerical advantage and be quickly killed, the same Sazen who's weaker than Nihl.


There's been something like a dozen battles with the main Imperial Knights/Krayt's Hands/Shado and Sazen, either with each other, which established them as close, or against groups of jedi, masters, sith, and so on.

I mean, there's only so much you can see someone be attacked by multiple force users in groups- force users who themselves have often been seen killing other force users- and solidly defeat them while outnumbered, sometimes drastically outnumbered, before you have to admit, yea, they're strong.




She put up a better fight against Vader- before she learned to tap into the talisman- than a good number of Clone Wars masters ever did.



I cannot think of any fight aside from Palpatine where masters fall so fast, and he was in a disadvantaged position.



Personally I rate that as anti-Legacy bias.

I just mentioned a time when an Imperial Knight killed 6 Sith at once- not sequentially, being attacked as a group- after previously having killed some other Sith. Ventress has never done the like, and Grievous only did that sort of thing in the original cartoon (and even then, by splitting up the targets and facing them individual).

If you don't know anything to put them above Ventress, it is purely because you haven't been paying attention.



I mean, here we have Krayt, who walks over pretty much all opposition, and we have about a half-dozen people who find taking down a half-dozen Jedi or Sith to be a good warmup, who are way below him, and even below Cade who is clearly below him.


He's got much better force powers than Dooku and nothing about his saber record indicates he is anything but top tier.

I recall Krayt was Luke's backup during the fight. And Luke had already taken on Abeloth alone.

Originally posted by Q99
Let me also point out that Krayt fought with Abeloth between shadows.

One's power between shadows is purely based on force ability, and Krayt was quite strong in that fight.

And, y'know, force illusion, the one where if it works the target stands there helplessly.

With Dark Transfer all he has to do is grab someone and they are dead. It's how he killed Cade, and I wouldn't call that too circumstantial.

And shatterpoint, shatterpoint lets a user see weaknesses in combat in general, the point where you strike to break someone's guard, the wound you make to cause your opponent to lose footing, etc.. Give a saber user shatterpoint and their win percentage purely with sabers, no force abilities, will go up.

Oh sure, and taking on large numbers of Sith or Jedi at once count for nothing, huh?

Don't forget Nihl also took Wolf Sazen's arm, and Wolf Sazen is *far* from featless.

We've seen unnamed Sith kill Jedi masters and then attack Sazen with numerical advantage and be quickly killed, the same Sazen who's weaker than Nihl.

There's been something like a dozen battles with the main Imperial Knights/Krayt's Hands/Shado and Sazen, either with each other, which established them as close, or against groups of jedi, masters, sith, and so on.

I mean, there's only so much you can see someone be attacked by multiple force users in groups- force users who themselves have often been seen killing other force users- and solidly defeat them while outnumbered, sometimes drastically outnumbered, before you have to admit, yea, they're strong.

She put up a better fight against Vader- before she learned to tap into the talisman- than a good number of Clone Wars masters ever did.

I cannot think of any fight aside from Palpatine where masters fall so fast, and he was in a disadvantaged position.

Personally I rate that as anti-Legacy bias.

I just mentioned a time when an Imperial Knight killed 6 Sith at once- not sequentially, being attacked as a group- after previously having killed some other Sith. Ventress has never done the like, and Grievous only did that sort of thing in the original cartoon (and even then, by splitting up the targets and facing them individual).

If you don't know anything to put them above Ventress, it is purely because you haven't been paying attention.

I mean, here we have Krayt, who walks over pretty much all opposition, and we have about a half-dozen people who find taking down a half-dozen Jedi or Sith to be a good warmup, who are way below him, and even below Cade who is clearly below him.

He's got much better force powers than Dooku and nothing about his saber record indicates he is anything but top tier. Tbh, this is a LOT of overhype. I read the Legacy comics. ALL of them. In fact, I just skimmed through many of the pertinent issues just to verify that I am correct. No single IK has feats which suggest they could defeat the likes of Ventress/Grievous(of whom were VASTLY inferior to Dooku) for a majority-- arguing otherwise demonstrates nothing but sheer bias on your end... And as if that's not enough, you then equate Krayt slaying a few IK's to "Palpatine-stuff"? Doubleyou.Oh.Doubleyou=WOW.

Again: It takes a Yoda-level duelist to compete with Dooku. Hell, even a BLINDED Dooku can tool Asajj+2 Nightsisters simultaneously. If I wanted to get silly, I could call that "Palpatine-stuff" as well, but I'm not quite as bold. Point: Krayt has done absolutely NOTHING indicative of being able to defeat Dooku in a duel. Contend? Sure. Beat? No. When he can match a Yoda-level sabermaster, let me know.

Originally posted by Vensai
I recall Krayt was Luke's backup during the fight. And Luke had already taken on Abeloth alone.

Or Luke could be considered Krayt's backup. They both did vital stuff.

Krayt did the force drain and shoved his hand into her chest. Luke held her for Krayt to do damage to.

Luke was the debuffer while Krayt was the DPS.


Originally posted by Galan007
Tbh, this is a LOT of overhype. I read the Legacy comics. ALL of them. In fact, I just skimmed through many of the pertinent issues just to verify that I am correct. No single IK has feats which suggest they could defeat the likes of Ventress/Grievous(of whom were VASTLY inferior to Dooku) for a majority-- arguing otherwise demonstrates nothing but sheer bias on your end...

Oh please. Draco has more kills and force user fights than Ventress, and tell me if Ventress ever takes on a half-dozen Jedi at once.

Treis Sinde has better force powers while we're at it.

You read the Legacy comic, but I think you kinda glossed over things because they aren't time-consuming duels like in the shows. There were a lot of fights where Draco and Ganner, or Sazen and Shado, or Cade, got significant numbers of kills.

It's easy to forget because many of the fights were inconclusive ones between each other and the two Hands, but every time they weren't fighting one of the main characters, they left trails of defeated foes.

Remember, unlike the Clone Wars cartoon, the majority of opponents they fought were Sith Warriors and Jedi Knights, not droids and clones. Killing 6 Sith on your own is impressive.





Personal bodyguard including at least one master, group expected to fight a dozen sith and have a good chance to escape, surrounded, 3-seconds...

The impressive part was not simply the defeating them, but the speed with which it was done which is highly unusual and really not seen often at all against foes of that level.



Anakin could manage, and even A'Sharad was, bare minimum, close to that level.



Yea, that was a fight that took minutes, while if you had tossed a can in the air at the start of the Throne Room fight it'd be over before the can landed.




He's certainly shown nothing that indicates he's any weaker in sabers, and he's shown a lot more in the force.


In his era he is literally undefeated in sabers and only one person was able to fight on an even level, and the major badasses of the era were overwhelmed by him. You seem to be assuming he's weaker based on, well, nothing.

Luke has beaten the Emperor even when he wasn't at his peak (he had Leia's help, but Palpatine was stronger than in ROTS). He's the strongest one here. Palpatine was the strongest of a lineage of sith lords starting with Bane. Since Yoda stalemated Sidious, the grand master ought to be able to deal with Darth Bane. Team 1 is just outclassed. Darth Krayt is powerful but he is facing two of the strongest jedi in history.

Originally posted by Vensai
Luke has beaten the Emperor even when he wasn't at his peak (he had Leia's help, but Palpatine was stronger than in ROTS). He's the strongest one here. Palpatine was the strongest of a lineage of sith lords starting with Bane. Since Yoda stalemated Sidious, the grand master ought to be able to deal with Darth Bane. Team 1 is just outclassed. Darth Krayt is powerful but he is facing two of the strongest jedi in history.

Yep. It's like,
"Haha, we may hate each other's Sith organizations, but we're still two of the most powerful sith around! What Jedi think they can challenge us?"

Door opens, Luke and Yoda step out.

Krayt: "Crap."

Bane: "What? I don't know these punks, I'm from the past. Should I be worried?"


*Sith Gank'ed*

Originally posted by Q99
Oh please. Draco has more kills and force user fights than Ventress, and tell me if Ventress ever takes on a half-dozen Jedi at once. Who did Draco beat that was on par with Ventress or Grievous in sabers? Serious question, as I may have missed something.

Originally posted by Q99
You read the Legacy comic, but I think you kinda glossed over things because they aren't time-consuming duels like in the shows. There were a lot of fights where Draco and Ganner, or Sazen and Shado, or Cade, got significant numbers of kills.

It's easy to forget because many of the fights were inconclusive ones between each other and the two Hands, but every time they weren't fighting one of the main characters, they left trails of defeated foes.

Remember, unlike the Clone Wars cartoon, the majority of opponents they fought were Sith Warriors and Jedi Knights, not droids and clones. Killing 6 Sith on your own is impressive.Kills against people of consequence are what matters. Killing a bunch of featless wonders who were dubbed Sith is, imo, meaningless as it pertains to Dooku-- a guy who has matched Yoda on a few occasions, has been stated as one of 2 duelists capable of out-sparring Mace, has beaten Kenobi multiple times, regularly trains with/owns Grievous, has beaten Asajj and co. while blind, etc. etc.)

And I'm not saying the feat isn't impressive, I just don't think it is impressive enough to put someone on the level you're claiming.

Originally posted by Q99
Personal bodyguard including at least one master, group expected to fight a dozen sith and have a good chance to escape, surrounded, 3-seconds...

The impressive part was not simply the defeating them, but the speed with which it was done which is highly unusual and really not seen often at all against foes of that level.You seem to be under the impression that title equates to power..? Personally, I could care less about titles like "master"-- I want to know what these characters have done to warrant some of your hyped claims..?

Originally posted by Q99
Anakin could manage, and even A'Sharad was, bare minimum, close to that level.Zonakin managed to kill Dooku. Mustafar Anakin/Vader was nearly killed by Kenobi. Unless you believe the latter 'incarnation' of Anakin was still Yoda-level, then he certainly wouldn't have been able to defeat Dooku. Either way, we know what level of power/swordsmanship is required to match and defeat Dooku-- and that is Yoda-level+. Krayt=/=Yoda.

A'Sharad did well against Kenobi, but was ultimately owned-- something Kenobi never came close to doing to Dooku. Like I said: using Kenobi as a gauge isn't helping your case.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, that was a fight that took minutes, while if you had tossed a can in the air at the start of the Throne Room fight it'd be over before the can landed.Yea, Dooku was BLIND at the time-- that's the impressive part.

Originally posted by Q99
He's certainly shown nothing that indicates he's any weaker in sabers, and he's shown a lot more in the force.He's got feats to place him above Dooku in the force, but certainly not enough to put him on par with Dooku in sabers. Again: Krayt=/=Yoda.

Originally posted by Q99
In his era he is literally undefeated in sabers and only one person was able to fight on an even level, and the major badasses of the era were overwhelmed by him. You seem to be assuming he's weaker based on, well, nothing. 'In his era' are the key words here. Again, I'm not saying that Krayt can't put up a fight. He definitely can. I've just yet to see anything that makes me think he can beat Dooku in a duel. Tbh, I'm not even convinced that Krayt can beat Dooku in an all-out scenario. /shrug

Originally posted by Q99
Yep. It's like,
"Haha, we may hate each other's Sith organizations, but we're still two of the most powerful sith around! What Jedi think they can challenge us?"

Door opens, Luke and Yoda step out.

Krayt: "Crap."

Bane: "What? I don't know these punks, I'm from the past. Should I be worried?"


*Sith Gank'ed*

Pretty much how this would go down.

It's more, "Oh, Ventress is very proud of her 11 Jedi kills? Draco killed 9 Sith in one day, the last six of which were without anyone watching his back."

Ventresses' wins are almost entirely against generic Jedi, and Draco does way better in that area, taking on groups and all that.

And he does fight on the same level as the likes of Nihl, Talon, Shado, and such. Past debates have the consensus put Talon above TPM Maul, let alone Ventress.



None of the Imperial Knights we've seen were weak, and titles may not be impressive, but family names and the opinions of others can still say something about strength- he was a Fel, i.e. a descendant of Jaina solo. His cousin Roan Fel was quite strong, and Roan felt Mohrgan + 3 Knights had a chance fighting their way out against a significantly greater number of Sith. Wrongly, but Roan is not the type who'd mistake weaklings without skill for otherwise.



Purely talking the sabers end here. A'Sharad was weak in force defense but, if anything, had the edge in sabers.

Krayt is, like, a dozen times stronger in the force than A'Sharad, and more experienced to a great degree.

Dooku and Kenobi weren't that far apart in sabers. If A'Sharad was Kenobi level in sabers alone, then it is an incredibly small leap to put Krayt at at least Dooku level, what with him learning sith techniques on top of his old Jedi ones, learning shatterpoints, and simply becoming stronger in the force which, as we know, affects one's speed and physical power.

If A'Sharad simply had decades of training and experience, getting to Dooku's saber level would not be even slightly surprising. Decades of training and experience and a massive power-up including multiple abilities that directly help saber fighting...? You don't even have to make high-end assumptions.



Indeed; I don't think there's anything that indicates the Legacy era is weaker than other eras, and the characters we've seen have had a lot of reason to get very good in sabers, facing lots of foes, and in the few era-crossovers we've seen (Andeddu, Morne, Abeloth) Legacy stacks up just fine.


There's precisely zero to indicate that Legacy lags behind other eras, and plenty to indicate they are quite capable of holding their own. They're only a few generations removed from several of the greatest Jedi ever, after all.

Originally posted by Q99
Past debates have the consensus put Talon above TPM Maul, let alone Ventress.

So? Past debates have the consensus that Ragnos could destroy Sidious in a duel it doesn't make it true.

Originally posted by Q99
Purely talking the sabers end here. A'Sharad was weak in force defense but, if anything, had the edge in sabers.

Which is why Obi-Wan cut off his arm right?

And, as I've posted several times before, the artist confirmed that Obi-Wan cut the arm off.

http://www.comicscommunity.com/boards/janduursema/?read=9783&expand=0

Dooku>Krayt (Sabers)
Krayt>Dooku (Force)

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Dooku>Krayt (Sabers)
Krayt>Dooku (Force)

I have a hard time believing that Krayt could treat Obi-Wan Kenobi the way Dooku did.
Dooku seems to be Krayt's superior. By how much, probably not much at all. But against people of Mace and Dooku's calibur, stars help him Yoda, he'd go down hard.

It disappoints me to see that The Coward (thats my new nickname for Tempest) has decided to flee from my challenge rather than actually attempt to spin some bullshit to save face. I could have done with a laugh.

Expectations often ends up in disappointments.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It disappoints me to see that The Coward (thats my new nickname for Tempest) has decided to flee from my challenge rather than actually attempt to spin some bullshit to save face. I could have done with a laugh.

I see that mocking Bane has, predictably, driven you to rage. What challenge?

And I see that poking your ego made you show up pretty quick. Guess I win this round *******.

The one on the last page.

That doesn't make any sense. How would I know you'd "poked my ego" before I looked in the thread?

Fool, my logic is undeniable and inevitable. I know for a fact that your sphincter clenches whenever your ego is threatened. Thats why you always get so butthurt.

lol u cray

Thank you.

See, I just said a polite thing to you. Now reward me with your concession and failure tears.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Again you miss my point. I did not say that he was necessarily unable, only that he has not, therefore we cannot say that he is able.

We can reasonably infer that he is able to do so: he's immobilized the likes of Caedus and UnuThul via the Force when sufficiently motivated.

Your theory relies entirely on unreasonable and dangerous leaps in logic, that Luke is somehow impaired in Force use or that his subscribed morality imposes insurmountable limitations on his abilities. Neither of which is actually the case.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane has plenty of feats of pwning someone with the Force.

Other than an unknown like WelkQordis?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Luke, not so much. Other than an unknown like Welk I suppose. And his feats aside from that not enough to say that he could pimpslap a foe like Bane around.

The problem is that bereft of orbalisks or Force nexuses, Bane is really nothing special in the Force.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No. he isn't.

I'm sure you'll come to terms with Bane's impotence eventually.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As I recall, Luke overpowered neither Unuthul or Abeloth with the Force. Unuthul has little in the way of impressive showings beyond 'empowered by billions!' which as Vitiate absorbing 8,000 Sith Lords showed does not necessarily mean that their power is literally multiplied.

Raynar's eyes grew very dark around the edges, and suddenly Luke could see nothing else. The murky presence began to reach into his mind, trying to push its way inside his thoughts to read his intentions. Luke was astonished by its power and had to reach deeply into the Force to bolster his own strength. Though the probe was hardly subtle or refined, it felt as though it were being driven by a thousand Raynars, and he feared for a moment that in his surprise he would be overwhelmed by its sheer might.
Then he felt Mara pouring her own strength into him, and Saba and even Leia. Together they pushed the dusky hand back. Luke found himself looking once again into the blue, lidless eyes of their host, and he finally began to comprehend just how difficult it was going to be to reach Raynar Thul.

"Possibly," Mara allowed. Luke felt her alarm growing as clearly as his own; it was growing all too obvious that Unu - Raynar's nest-was the source of what the Chiss were calling the Will. "But this central Will would have to be magnitudes stronger than the wills of the individual nests."
"And it could be," Luke said, recalling how powerful Raynar had grown in the Force. "A gifted Joiner might be able to draw on the Force potential of his entire nest."
"I thought you said that the Killiks aren't Force-sensitive," Formbi said.
"He did," Mara answered. "Force-sensitive means you have the ability to tap into the Force.

Raynar can draw upon the Force potential of the entire colony and Luke's hyperbolic thoughts attribute UnuThul with the power of a thousand Raynars.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And Abeloth he had help in all? of their fights?

He was also impeded in at least two via the Sith and still emerged triumphant.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also can I get some info on Luke dismantling Vader's castle? IIRC he did it brick by brick, which while impressive is more a feat of stamina that actual power.

He sat down on the sand, cross-legged and straight-backed, and brought his hands together in his lap, fingertip to fingertip. Concentrating on a picture in his mind, Luke dipped his awareness deeply into the flow of the Force beneath him. With eyes that looked inward, he found what he was seeking, like flaws in a near-perfect crystal. He extended his will.
The sand around him stirred. The rocks shuddered, shifted, then began to rise from the sea and the sand as though sifted from them by an invisible screen.
Swirling through the air as they sought their place, the stones took shape as broken wall and shattered foundation, as arch and gate and dome-the ruins of Darth Vader's fortress retreat. It hung in the air around and above Luke as it had once stood atop the cliff, a dark-faced and forbidding edifice.
There was no record in Imperial City's files to say whether his father had ever occupied the fortress, though it had clearly been built for him in accord with his instructions. It had been empty when it was destroyed by a B-wing's blasters, in the days after the New Republic reclaimed Coruscant.
Was this where Vader plotted his conquests in the Emperor's service?
Was this where he had come to rejuvenate after a battle? Had there been celebrations here, self-indulgent pleasures or cruelties? Luke listened for the echoes of the old evils, and could not be certain.
But that did not matter to his plans. As he had redeemed and reclaimed his father, he would redeem and reclaim his father's house.
Now the stones swirled again in the air, joined by others plucked from the sea and stripped from the face of the cliff. Now broken edge fused against broken edge, and the dark faces of the rock lightened as their mineral structure was reshuffled. Now heavy rock walls and floors thinned to an airy elegance as if they were clay in a potter's press.
Now a tower stretched skyward until it rose above the edge of the cliff.

He had taken the broken pieces of his father's fortress retreat and tried to remake them into something that could redeem them from their history. But he saw now that all he had managed to build was a prison, and that he had been fortunate to escape it.
Extending his hands and his will, Luke found the points of greatest stress within the structure and pressed upon them, found the points of greatest fragility and sundered them. With a roar that momentarily rivaled the wind, the hermitage collapsed in on itself, crushing the fighter still sealed within it.
But that was not enough to satisfy Luke, not enough to forever erase the temptation. One after another, he raised the pieces of the ruined hermitage, the broken ship, up out of the sand and into the air, crumbling them with the force of his thoughts, until it was a dense, swirling cloud of pebble-sized fragments and metal bits.
Then, with a final, explosive effort of will, he hurled the cloud of debris far out beyond the breakers, where it rained down on the churning water and vanished from sight.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Do it. I ****ing double dare you bro. It'll be a laugh to see how you can possibly twist something to do with them into a G-canon clash.

We know from the ROTS script that only Jedi can attain life after death, so Nihilus doesn't exist. The same script says that the ability to cheat death is a power only attained by Plagueis, meaning Vitiate is out. And, as the final nail in the coffin, Palpatine declares that the Republic has stood for only a thousand years (and Ki-Adi-Mundi claims the Sith have been extinct in that time). The events of KotOR, KotOR II, and TOR simply could not have occurred.

Likewise, the feats of all these Sith contradict the films and, per The Essential Reader's Companion pg 75, "As always, a story line direct from George Lucas trumps publishing continuity."

Note: the excerpts I provided are from pdf copies of Dark Nest I: The Joiner King, Before The Storm, and Tyrant's Test respectively, just found online.

There's your response. Farewell, Nihilus & Vitiate. stoned

Yesssssssss. Like a defenceless raccoon you tremble before my force and give me what I want.

This pleases Nephthys.

You demanded concession and failure tears. I gave you neither, but a response that relegates two of your favorite characters to nonexistence and reduces the third to a glorified chump.

You, madam, are clearly a liar.

You cannot defeat me. excellent

Originally posted by The_Tempest
We can reasonably infer that he is able to do so: he's immobilized the likes of Caedus and UnuThul via the Force when sufficiently motivated.

Your theory relies entirely on unreasonable and dangerous leaps in logic, that Luke is somehow impaired in Force use or that his subscribed morality imposes insurmountable limitations on his abilities. Neither of which is actually the case.

Caedus was taken by surprise. In their actual duel Luke amazingly enough did not pin him to the floor and rest his balls on his face like you think he could have. Plus Bane is superior to Caedus. And Luke didn't overpower Unuthul.

If it is not then kindly direct me to evidence that Luke can offensively manhandle Bane. Otherwise shut ya mouth.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Other than an unknown like WelkQordis?

Given that Qordis was the headmaster of the academy where only the strongest Sith were trained its pretty freaking obvious that he was legitimately powerful. And yes, Bane overpowered Raskta and Farfalla as well.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The problem is that bereft of orbalisks or Force nexuses, Bane is really nothing special in the Force.

http://global3.memecdn.com/Oh-Wait-Youre-Serious_o_97195.gif

Also this is peak Bane. Meaning he either has the orbalisks or is advanced enough that he doesn't need them.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Raynar's eyes grew very dark around the edges, and suddenly Luke could see nothing else. The murky presence began to reach into his mind, trying to push its way inside his thoughts to read his intentions. Luke was astonished by its power and had to reach deeply into the Force to bolster his own strength. Though the probe was hardly subtle or refined, it felt as though it were being driven by a thousand Raynars, and he feared for a moment that in his surprise he would be overwhelmed by its sheer might.
Then he felt Mara pouring her own strength into him, and Saba and even Leia. Together they pushed the dusky hand back. Luke found himself looking once again into the blue, lidless eyes of their host, and he finally began to comprehend just how difficult it was going to be to reach Raynar Thul.

"Possibly," Mara allowed. Luke felt her alarm growing as clearly as his own; it was growing all too obvious that Unu - Raynar's nest-was the source of what the Chiss were calling the Will. "But this central Will would have to be magnitudes stronger than the wills of the individual nests."
"And it could be," Luke said, recalling how powerful Raynar had grown in the Force. "A gifted Joiner might be able to draw on the Force potential of his entire nest."
"I thought you said that the Killiks aren't Force-sensitive," Formbi said.
"He did," Mara answered. "Force-sensitive means you have the ability to tap into the Force.

Raynar can draw upon the Force potential of the entire colony and Luke's hyperbolic thoughts attribute UnuThul with the power of a thousand Raynars.

Gee, that quote of Unuthul almost overwhelming Luke and Luke needing 3 other Jedi to help push him back sure does convince me that Luke is vastly superior to him.

And yeah its clearly hyperbolic and what happens at the end of that second quote? Mara acknowledges that Kiliks aren't Force-sensitive. But as I recall theres more too it than that because Unuthul was clearly tapping into something.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
He was also impeded in at least two via the Sith and still emerged triumphant.

Then question: Can Luke beat Abeloth in a straight fight?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
He sat down on the sand, cross-legged and straight-backed, and brought his hands together in his lap, fingertip to fingertip. Concentrating on a picture in his mind, Luke dipped his awareness deeply into the flow of the Force beneath him. With eyes that looked inward, he found what he was seeking, like flaws in a near-perfect crystal. He extended his will.
The sand around him stirred. The rocks shuddered, shifted, then began to rise from the sea and the sand as though sifted from them by an invisible screen.
Swirling through the air as they sought their place, the stones took shape as broken wall and shattered foundation, as arch and gate and dome-the ruins of Darth Vader's fortress retreat. It hung in the air around and above Luke as it had once stood atop the cliff, a dark-faced and forbidding edifice.
There was no record in Imperial City's files to say whether his father had ever occupied the fortress, though it had clearly been built for him in accord with his instructions. It had been empty when it was destroyed by a B-wing's blasters, in the days after the New Republic reclaimed Coruscant.
Was this where Vader plotted his conquests in the Emperor's service?
Was this where he had come to rejuvenate after a battle? Had there been celebrations here, self-indulgent pleasures or cruelties? Luke listened for the echoes of the old evils, and could not be certain.
But that did not matter to his plans. As he had redeemed and reclaimed his father, he would redeem and reclaim his father's house.
Now the stones swirled again in the air, joined by others plucked from the sea and stripped from the face of the cliff. Now broken edge fused against broken edge, and the dark faces of the rock lightened as their mineral structure was reshuffled. Now heavy rock walls and floors thinned to an airy elegance as if they were clay in a potter's press.
Now a tower stretched skyward until it rose above the edge of the cliff.

He had taken the broken pieces of his father's fortress retreat and tried to remake them into something that could redeem them from their history. But he saw now that all he had managed to build was a prison, and that he had been fortunate to escape it.
Extending his hands and his will, Luke found the points of greatest stress within the structure and pressed upon them, found the points of greatest fragility and sundered them. With a roar that momentarily rivaled the wind, the hermitage collapsed in on itself, crushing the fighter still sealed within it.
But that was not enough to satisfy Luke, not enough to forever erase the temptation. One after another, he raised the pieces of the ruined hermitage, the broken ship, up out of the sand and into the air, crumbling them with the force of his thoughts, until it was a dense, swirling cloud of pebble-sized fragments and metal bits.
Then, with a final, explosive effort of will, he hurled the cloud of debris far out beyond the breakers, where it rained down on the churning water and vanished from sight.

As I thought, theres no indication of time and Luke seems to be drawing upon a nexus or something outside of his own power 'Luke dipped his awareness deeply into the flow of the Force beneath him.' And it required him to meditate to do it. It's not replicatable in a forum fight. It is impressive, but not enough to say that Luke could pwn Bane.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
We know from the ROTS script that only Jedi can attain life after death, so Nihilus doesn't exist. The same script says that the ability to cheat death is a power only attained by Plagueis, meaning Vitiate is out. And, as the final nail in the coffin, Palpatine declares that the Republic has stood for only a thousand years (and Ki-Adi-Mundi claims the Sith have been extinct in that time). The events of KotOR, KotOR II, and TOR simply could not have occurred.

Likewise, the feats of all these Sith contradict the films and, per The Essential Reader's Companion pg 75, "As always, a story line direct from George Lucas trumps publishing continuity."



Ahahahahaha. Oh man, this was definitely worth it. Let us count the ways:

1. No, the script does not say that. If you think it does, point out where it says that. Either way it is completely irrelevent as Nihilus was not dead. He is not a Sith Spirit, he is a consciousness in a suit of armor.

2. LOL. No, Palpatine says that. Palpatine is a ****ing liar for one thing and has good cause to want to make Anakin think that theres only one way to save Padme. For a second thing, Vitiate again never died. And the context is wrong since Palpatine is discussing saving others from death, not achieving immortality or surviving past death, making it again irrelevent. Theres no contradiction considering they are completely different abilities.

3. Again Palpatine is a fallible guy who could have misspoke. In ANH Kenobi says that the Republic is 1000 generations old, which obviously is longer than 1000 years. Palpatine also mentions that 'once more the Sith will rule the galaxy', indicating that TOR, KOTOR etc did happen as examples of Sith Rule over portions of the galaxy.

Lol, their feats contradict nothing. The point on G-canon is correct, its just too bad that Palpatines opinions and words aren't infallible facts though.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You demanded concession and failure tears. I gave you neither, but a response that relegates two of your favorite characters to nonexistence and reduces the third to a glorified chump.

You, madam, are clearly a liar.

You cannot defeat me. excellent

No, you gave me a laugh. Which I suppose it pittance enough. You may live.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I have a hard time believing that Krayt could treat Obi-Wan Kenobi the way Dooku did.
Dooku seems to be Krayt's superior. By how much, probably not much at all. But against people of Mace and Dooku's calibur, stars help him Yoda, he'd go down hard.


Krayt's TK seems to rival Dooku's. Cade, in a state of rage, was able to throw a ship, and Krayt seemed to have more than an edge in TK during their fight, and even shattered stone structures with TK attacks.

Though, IMO, Dooku is the better saber duelist.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
lol u cray
LMAO!

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Krayt's TK seems to rival Dooku's. Cade, in a state of rage, was able to throw a ship, and Krayt seemed to have the edge in TK during their fight, and even shattered stone structures with TK attacks.

Though, IMO, Dooku is the better saber duelist.

Dooku can destroy rock with just his lightning. He has TKed plenty impressive objects like when he brought down a pillar before fighting Windu and Kenobi.

Originally posted by Q99
And he does fight on the same level as the likes of Nihl, Talon, Shado, and such. Past debates have the consensus put Talon above TPM Maul, let alone Ventress.


Talon is above Maul and Ventress, based on what? Lightning? Ventress has better TK feats than Talon, as far as I know.


Originally posted by Q99
Dooku and Kenobi weren't that far apart in sabers.


Yes, they are far apart in sabers. Ventress has shown to be Kenobi's equal in saber combat. She has either stalemated him, owned him, or has been barely bested by him. However, her and two other nightsisters were unable to beat a blind Dooku.

Originally posted by Q99
Past debates have the consensus put Talon above TPM Maul, let alone Ventress. Based on what? The only 'one-up' Talon had on Maul was FL-- so what? Maul tanked a Nightsister's force lightning without skipping a beat.

Additionally, I'm talking about saber feats that put her or Nihl or the IK's on par with Ventress or Grievous. She/they has/have none.

Originally posted by Q99
None of the Imperial Knights we've seen were weak, and titles may not be impressive, but family names and the opinions of others can still say something about strength- he was a Fel, i.e. a descendant of Jaina solo. His cousin Roan Fel was quite strong, and Roan felt Mohrgan + 3 Knights had a chance fighting their way out against a significantly greater number of Sith. Wrongly, but Roan is not the type who'd mistake weaklings without skill for otherwise. Again, I'm looking for FEATS. I could care less about title and/or lineage and/or unsubstantiated speechification.

Originally posted by Q99
Dooku and Kenobi weren't that far apart in sabers. They were worlds apart in sabers. Every single time they battled, Dooku tooled Kenobi without breaking a sweat-- whereas A'Sharad got his ass handed to him by Kenobi.

Originally posted by Q99
If A'Sharad was Kenobi level in sabers alone, then it is an incredibly small leap to put Krayt at at least Dooku level, what with him learning sith techniques on top of his old Jedi ones, learning shatterpoints, and simply becoming stronger in the force which, as we know, affects one's speed and physical power. You want me to post the plethora of quotes pertaining to Dooku's ability to massively amp his stats with the force?

Additionally, you're acting like the ability to sense shatterpoints equates to an auto-win. It doesn't. Shatterpoints are extremely circumstantial and pop up on a case-by-case basis. Who's to say that Dooku would even have a shatterpoint to exploit? C'mon, the overhype of Krayt here is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Q99
If A'Sharad simply had decades of training and experience, getting to Dooku's saber level would not be even slightly surprising. Decades of training and experience and a massive power-up including multiple abilities that directly help saber fighting...? You don't even have to make high-end assumptions. You do have to make assumptions, though... And assumptions are entirely what your stance hinges on.

Once more: show me PROOF that Krayt can hang with a confirmed Yoda-level swordsman in a duel, like Dooku has done, and I'll admit he is at least on par with Dooku. I'm waiting.

Originally posted by Q99
There's precisely zero to indicate that Legacy lags behind other eras, and plenty to indicate they are quite capable of holding their own. They're only a few generations removed from several of the greatest Jedi ever, after all. Wait, what? Aside from your personal assumptions, there is nothing which indicates that Krayt is on par with--much less greater than--Dooku as a swordsman. Nothing.

And if it were a knockout move, that might matter. Instead, Caedus was still conscious and in command of all his powers... and couldn't overcome Luke's effortless hold.



Kinky. But Luke muses that his brawl with Caedus "was supposed to hurt," it clearly wasn't meant to be a quick, painless affair.



You're welcome to prove it, but you'll fail miserably, my son. Caedus doesn't need orbalisks or dark side nexuses to do cool shit, he's a real man.



He sure did, right after resisting UnuThul's best attempt to ragdoll him, he amputated Raynar's arm and pinned him to a wall with the Force. Consult the source material, my son.



I already presented you with evidence, my son. It's not my fault that your toothpick of a penis is engorged at the mention of Bane's name, robbing you of the blood supply needed to process my irrefutable argument.



Orbalisks weren't specified and peak!Bane is woefully ill-equipped to take on Luke.



The text notes that Luke was taken by surprise, but I am not surprised that you only make note of such things when it favors Bane.



No one claimed that they were Force-sensitive. Force potential, as the passage later notes, is another term for life energy. It provides a tremendous boost, as noted by Jacen and Mara at various points.



He shouldn't, no. But then Vol, who "had much the power of Skywalker" pretty much did.



http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Mitt-Romney-Laughing.gif

I produce a quote that says a world bristles with energy and it's not a nexus, but Luke draws on the Force beneath him and it's magically a nexus.

Oh you.

Anyway, you should probably take a gander at a little film called The Empire Strikes Back where this green guy called Yoda mentions how the Force is present in the environment.



I never said it could be replicated in the heat of combat. But Bane is, on his best day, a mediocre warrior. Luke should have no problem batting him around if he dismantled a castle.









rFvj026dFxk



Palpatine specifically says "the ability to cheat death." Vitiate, too, was alleged to have possessed that power by his ability to make others immortal. This is a express and explicit violation of the films. It cannot stand.



http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcw4ov7sIU1rrzoiu.gif

So newer sources retcon older ones when it suits your argument, but not when it doesn't?



http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/9236/drevil.jpg

Because ruling a fraction of the galaxy means one ruled the galaxy itself.



Sorry, bro. George's vision is G-canon. Unless George specifically denotes where such feats are commensurate with his vision, they are a clear contradiction.



Your thrice lies shan't avail you. I accept your concession.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/23905520.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007

Wait, what? Aside from your personal assumptions, there is nothing which indicates that Krayt is on par with--much less greater than--Dooku as a swordsman. Nothing.

My personal assumptions and his own track record and his numerous powerups... Kenobi was at most one tier down from Dooku, and A'Sharad was on that level.


Aside from your personal assumptions, there is nothing which indicates that Krayt isn't on par with--much less weaker than--Dooku as a swordsman. Nothing.

Originally posted by Q99
My personal assumptions and his own track record and his numerous powerups... Kenobi was at most one tier down from Dooku, and A'Sharad was on that level. A'Sharad was owned by Kenobi in the span of, what? 30 seconds or so? He clearly wasn't on Kenobi's level. Heck, Grievous did better against Kenobi than A'Sharad did imo, and I still wouldn't say he was on Kenobi's level.

Originally posted by Q99
Aside from your personal assumptions, there is nothing which indicates that Krayt isn't on par with--much less weaker than--Dooku as a swordsman. Nothing. Feats, boy! FEATS!

Dooku's got the high-end feats to suggest he is an absolute upper-echelon duelist on par with the likes of Yoda. Krayt has feats to suggest that he could give Dooku a good fight, but has done absolutely nothing indicative of being able to out-spar Dooku. Seriously, nothing. I'm being more than fair here.

Originally posted by Galan007
A'Sharad was owned by Kenobi in the span of, what? 30 seconds or so? He clearly wasn't on Kenobi's level. Heck, Grievous did better against Kenobi than A'Sharad did imo, and I still wouldn't say he was on Kenobi's level.

...with the force.

A'Sharad hit Kenobi in the head during the saber fight, then Kenobi blasted him with the force and took his arm.

If you're arguing that someone's weaker in sabers, then perhaps noting they lost due to the force after they looked to be doing great in sabers is not the best argument.


And let us not forget, Kenobi beat the one who beat Dooku, and the one who beat Dooku didn't so much out-skill him as out-power him, and Krayt has power to spare. Anakin was only about as skilled as Kenobi, he just had more power, and that was enough to beat Dooku.




Yea, because being far superior to people who kill large numbers of force users is not a feat! Killing four Knights while surrounded is not a feat! Fighting the Abeloth and Celeste Morne is not a feat! Killing a ship full of Vong is not a feat!

Ignoring feats is not the same thing as not having them. You're just writing them off because they're in an era you don't like, but if you write off everything from an era, that doesn't say that someone's weaker, it tells you precisely nothing at all.





And Krayt's got high-end feats suggesting he's upper end, and Dooku's never had anything to directly compare him to Krayt, so...




"Being utterly fair," "Dismissing that someone who dominates their entire era that has quite a few impressive lightsaber masters and that has shown zero sign of being far behind other eras, might even match Dooku in sabers," same difference, eh?


Look, not counting any feat in Legacy or sign that Krayt's massively improved over time is just your bag. It's not being fair, it's ignoring a heck of a lot.


I will point out to you that most eras have powerful lightsaber fighters who've never fought Yoda, but I think it'd be silly to say none of them are stronger than Dooku because of it.

Can't blame Galan for not liking the Legacy era, it's almost as creatively bankrupt as the Old Republic game.

Mmm, I wouldn't say Dooku is on par with Yoda. Their duel in AOTC only lasted about 30 seconds before Dooku felt the need to flee, and there is also evidents to suggest that Yoda was pulling some punches during that duel. Their duel in DR possibly lasted a bit longer, but Dooku also had the advantage of the dark side nexus on Vjun, but again was forced to flee. So I don't see how Dooku is on par with Yoda. A challenge? Yeah. But I don't think he would have ever had a chance in actually winning a saber duel against Yoda.

But Dooku is definitely more than just a level above Obi Wan, IMO. Ventress (Obi Wan's equal), with the help of two nightsisters, couldn't even gain an advantage against a BLIND Dooku in sabers. (Dooku was also visually disoriented in that duel/some loss of force-sense)

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Mmm, I wouldn't say Dooku is on par with Yoda. Their duel in AOTC only lasted about 30 seconds before Dooku felt the need to flee, and there is also evidents to suggest that Yoda was pulling some punches during that duel. Their duel in DR possibly lasted a bit longer, but Dooku also had the advantage of the dark side nexus on Vjun, but again was forced to flee. So I don't see how Dooku is on par with Yoda. A challenge? Yeah. But I don't think he would have ever had a chance in actually winning a saber duel against Yoda.

But Dooku is definitely more than just a level above Obi Wan, IMO. Ventress (Obi Wan's equal), with the help of two nightsisters, couldn't even gain an advantage against a BLIND Dooku in sabers. (Dooku was also visually disoriented in that duel/some loss of force-sense)

Originally posted by Q99
A'Sharad hit Kenobi in the head during the saber fight, then Kenobi blasted him with the force and took his arm.

If you're arguing that someone's weaker in sabers, then perhaps noting they lost due to the force after they looked to be doing great in sabers is not the best argument.

And let us not forget, Kenobi beat the one who beat Dooku, and the one who beat Dooku didn't so much out-skill him as out-power him, and Krayt has power to spare. Anakin was only about as skilled as Kenobi, he just had more power, and that was enough to beat Dooku.

So your contention is that Krayt>>Kenobi=Vader>Dooku≈Yoda? Yes, perfectly logical.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, because being far superior to people who kill large numbers of force users is not a feat! Killing four Knights while surrounded is not a feat! Fighting the Abeloth and Celeste Morne is not a feat! Killing a ship full of Vong is not a feat!Fighting off the Abeloth with Luke's help, you mean.

Celeste Morne was trying to stay-off possession from Muur throughout most of their battle, yet still managed to 'kill' Krayt. I wasn't overly impressed by him there, tbh.

He killed the Vong with force lightning. Impressive, but also something Dooku can easily duplicate.

Originally posted by Q99
Ignoring feats is not the same thing as not having them. You're just writing them off because they're in an era you don't like, but if you write off everything from an era, that doesn't say that someone's weaker, it tells you precisely nothing at all.I haven't ignored a single shred of evidence you've listed. I've merely comment on how weak said evidence has been in general.

Me: "list some FEATS the IK's have that put them on par with feebs(relative to Dooku, of course) like Asajj and Grievous."

You: "the IK's were called masters... And they also hailed from strong bloodlines. Slaying a group them is an uber feat on par with Palpatine!"


Sorry, but I don't find some of these 'feats' nearly as impressive as you do. Doesn't mean I'm ignoring things, nor does it mean I haven't noticed your numerous dodges.

Originally posted by Q99
And Krayt's got high-end feats suggesting he's upper end, and Dooku's never had anything to directly compare him to Krayt, so...Krayt's got high-end force feats suggestive of being able to 'out-force' Dooku-- he certainly doesn't have saber feats indicative of such.

Originally posted by Q99
"Being utterly fair," "Dismissing that someone who dominates their entire era that has quite a few impressive lightsaber masters and that has shown zero sign of being far behind other eras, might even match Dooku in sabers," same difference, eh?I said I was being "more than fair", and I am. We have to base the outcome of a particular battle on substantiated claims, and/or feats-- and simply put: Krayt has no feats suggestive of being able to contend with a Yoda-level swordsman. None.

Originally posted by Q99
Look, not counting any feat in Legacy or sign that Krayt's massively improved over time is just your bag. It's not being fair, it's ignoring a heck of a lot.His power over the force massively improved, that's for sure. How do I know? Because of his FEATS. His swordsmanship is another matter entirely, though.

Originally posted by Q99
I will point out to you that most eras have powerful lightsaber fighters who've never fought Yoda, but I think it'd be silly to say none of them are stronger than Dooku because of it. Lol, I'm not saying they need to literally match Yoda himself to have a shot at Dooku-- I'm saying a character needs to be on par with a Yoda-level swordsman to have a chance at out-dueling the good Count.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Can't blame Galan for not liking the Legacy era, it's almost as creatively bankrupt as the Old Republic game. The guy is so mad at me.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Mmm, I wouldn't say Dooku is on par with Yoda. Their duel in AOTC only lasted about 30 seconds before Dooku felt the need to flee, and there is also evidents to suggest that Yoda was pulling some punches during that duel. Their duel in DR possibly lasted a bit longer, but Dooku also had the advantage of the dark side nexus on Vjun, but again was forced to flee. So I don't see how Dooku is on par with Yoda. A challenge? Yeah. But I don't think he would have ever had a chance in actually winning a saber duel against Yoda. Look back at some of my first few posts on the subject. I mentioned that Dooku was "nigh"(ie. nearly) on Yoda's level-- hence my contention that Krayt would have to be on par with Yoda to have a chance at beating Dooku.

Considering we see Kenobi blasting Hett after his arm was chopped of it seems Kenobi chopped off the arm prior to blasting Hett with the Force not the other way around...

No?

Krayt >> A'Sharad ≈< Kenobi = Vader > Dooku ≈< Yoda

Purely talking swords.

Heck, even if you go with the less generous, A'Sharad < Kenobi, Krayt's >> A'Sharad. There's no way he's not more powerful than Kenobi as Krayt.

Because somehow you're having someone mildly behind a high-tier duelist like Kenobi, get several times more powerful in the force, get more experience than the length of Dooku's life, but not even improve a tier?

That just doesn't make sense, you're just writing it off because you don't like it.



Originally posted by ares834
Considering we see Kenobi blasting Hett after his arm was chopped of it seems Kenobi chopped off the arm prior to blasting Hett with the Force not the other way around...

We see the arm coming off at the same time as the blast. The art actually makes it look like the arm was simply blasted off. The two moves could've been effectively simultaneous- the TK opens the guard for the slash.

Originally posted by Q99
We see the arm coming off at the same time as the blast. The art actually makes it look like the arm was simply blasted off. The two moves could've been effectively simultaneous- the TK opens the guard for the slash.

Don't see how. We still see the TK waves still there which signifies that Kenobi is currently using the attack. Meanwhile his saber is at that point in time far from the wound meaning Kenobi cutting off the arm was a previous attack. The most logical conclusion therefore is he chopped of the arm and then blasted it away.

Originally posted by Q99
Krayt >> A'Sharad ≈< Kenobi = Vader > Dooku ≈< Yoda

Purely talking swords.

I can no longer take you seriously in this debate. You have NO feat-based evidence to support the notion that Krayt is on par with --much less superior to-- Yoda as a swordsman. Frankly, I find that claim truly laughable.

Originally posted by ares834
The most logical conclusion therefore is he chopped of the arm and then blasted it away. That is what happened-- as evident by the fact that A'Sahrad's arm/nub was still smoldering immediately after Kenobi lightsaber'd it(circled in red), and wasn't bleeding at all:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15456653/blz17.jpg.html

TK attacks... Don't do that.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And if it were a knockout move, that might matter. Instead, Caedus was still conscious and in command of all his powers... and couldn't overcome Luke's effortless hold.

Do you have anything indicating that he tried? With the Force, naturally.

Also, it was my impression that you agreed with me that it would have been much more difficult to break Luke's pin after he had pinned him. I believe you equated it to having your arms pinned behind your back. The guy might not necessarily be stronger than you, but its too hard to break out of the hold.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Kinky. But Luke muses that his brawl with Caedus "was supposed to hurt," it clearly wasn't meant to be a quick, painless affair.

Well there was a torture device just a few feet away that Luke could have pushed him into, if he wanted it to hurt....

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You're welcome to prove it, but you'll fail miserably, my son. Caedus doesn't need orbalisks or dark side nexuses to do cool shit, he's a real man.

Theres no indication that Bane does need either of those things, you feeble-minded jackass. I've yet to see anything from you indicating that a Force user is amped merely by a nexus' presence and doesn't need to purposefully access it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
He sure did, right after resisting UnuThul's best attempt to ragdoll him, he amputated Raynar's arm and pinned him to a wall with the Force. Consult the source material, my son.

Actually he pins him to the wall with his hands, and then uses the Force to hold him there. UnuThul then tries to summon his lightsaber rather than resist Luke's hold. Also, Unuthul had just lost a freaking arm. The text notes that he can still fight despite this, but the effect would still have been debilitating to say the least.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I already presented you with evidence, my son. It's not my fault that your toothpick of a penis is engorged at the mention of Bane's name, robbing you of the blood supply needed to process my irrefutable argument.

If my penis is the size of a toothpick, then how can an erection possibly siphon off any noticeable amount of blood?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Orbalisks weren't specified and peak!Bane is woefully ill-equipped to take on Luke.

Peak Bane, son.

Either he has the orbalisks or he's better off without them. I'm happy for you to decide which one is superior if you'd like.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The text notes that Luke was taken by surprise, but I am not surprised that you only make note of such things when it favors Bane.

He was surprised by Unuthul's power. There was enough time for the other Jedi to realise what was happening and help him, so clearly there was enough time for Luke to respond.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No one claimed that they were Force-sensitive. Force potential, as the passage later notes, is another term for life energy. It provides a tremendous boost, as noted by Jacen and Mara at various points.

Ok, but that's highly ambiguous. If Unuthul actually had any impressive feats we might be able to determine how good he actually is, but just saying that he was boosted by a large but unknown amount isn't exactly swaying me.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
He shouldn't, no. But then Vol, who "had much the power of Skywalker" pretty much did.

You mean before she killed him?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Mitt-Romney-Laughing.gif

I produce a quote that says a world bristles with energy and it's not a nexus, but Luke draws on the Force beneath him and it's magically a nexus.

Oh you.

No, I'm just unaware of where he is. He seemed to be drawing on something so I made note of that and suggested a nexus.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Anyway, you should probably take a gander at a little film called The Empire Strikes Back where this green guy called Yoda mentions how the Force is present in the environment.

Cool story.

Still means that the feat wasn't done completely under his own power. And if he tries that against Bane, Bane could just as easily draw from the environment.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I never said it could be replicated in the heat of combat. But Bane is, on his best day, a mediocre warrior. Luke should have no problem batting him around if he dismantled a castle.

Haha, you ol' scallywag!

No.

As I said, Luke did not dismantle a castle under his own power and in battle conditions. You can't exactly use that as an example for his fighting ability. And to call Bane a mediocre warrior is retarded in the extreme considering he's mastered millions of sequences and lightsaber combat to the point where he was declared 'beyond forms'. He also has extremely powerful Force Lightning and TK and either the orbalisk armor or speed superior to anything Luke has shown.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
rFvj026dFxk

Nothing there supports your argument.

First Quote: Qui-Gon is talking about the technique he is using, he does not preclude the idea that this could be achieved another way.

Second Quote: Again, doesn't say that.

Third Quote: It mentions eternal life, which no Sith ever achieved and thus is not invalidated. Plus you know the RotS novel is written in third person limited narration.

Filoni: He never explicitly says anything. Haha.

Also you missed out on addressing the fact that Nihilus never died.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Palpatine specifically says "the ability to cheat death." Vitiate, too, was alleged to have possessed that power by his ability to make others immortal. This is a express and explicit violation of the films. It cannot stand.

No, it isn't. As I said, Sidious is a fictional character and cannot say shit like that and have it be immutable fact. Considering the guy couldn't even get the age of the Republic right, I'm not taking anything he says as factual.

And that's wrong, Vitiate is not cheating death, he is simply living longer. Sidious is specifically talking about the ability to save others from dying i.e. midichlorian manipulation, as in literally cheating death by preventing it. It's a completely different technique and thus is irrelevent.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
So newer sources retcon older ones when it suits your argument, but not when it doesn't?

Sure. Too bad Palpatine isn't a source though.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because ruling a fraction of the galaxy means one ruled the galaxy itself.

Ruling a portion can still be termed as such, yes.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sorry, bro. George's vision is G-canon. Unless George specifically denotes where such feats are commensurate with his vision, they are a clear contradiction.

You haven't proven anything other than that Palpatine said it. So... good job on that I guess. And as I pointed out, none of that applies to Vitiate or Nihilus, neither or which died, nor had the power to save others from death.

Also Palps says that the Republic has stood for a thousand years, not that its stood for only that long.

Team 2 OBVIOUSLY.

Originally posted by Galan007


I can no longer take you seriously in this debate. You have NO feat-based evidence to support the notion that Krayt is on par with --much less superior to-- Yoda as a swordsman. Frankly, I find that claim truly laughable.

.... I never said he was superior to Yoda? Or even implied it? Why the strawman?

I think they're in the same tier, largely based on how dominant he is in his era.

And I've produced several high-level feats. Stuff like him being noticeably stronger than Cade, who beat both Hands, who are in turn proven themselves equal to people who regularly dispatch large numbers of Sith with sabers. You have no, and I mean zero feat-based evidence to indicate he's weaker than Dooku, and it takes frankly absurd low-end assumptions of Legacy-era skill to get there.

This "I don't count Legacy feats because they don't have characters outside of Legacy era, I'll automatically assume it's weaker... because!" stuff is dumb. I mean, you could say that about almost any era if you wanted to. If you don't count "Overwhelms people who solidly beat people who kill half-dozens of force users in a single fights, " that's not lack of feats, that's you.

Neph, you had two days to construct a worthy response and you give me... that?

http://www.thejrexperiment.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/contempt.jpg

I miss this show and accept your concession. For your next challenge, try assembling an argument without double standards instead of wasting our time.

You're adobs.

Luke > Bane
Yoda > Krayt

Is there anything else you need?