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Pre reboot version of Cassie vs Captain America.

No weapons or shields for either of them.

Who wins?

Steve.

Cass?

Wonder Girl?

Batgirl, I'm guessing.

I'd have given Steve fair odds against Wonder Girl.

Cassandra Cain wins. She's what Mr. X should have been, but never really was..

Steve is kinda at a disadvantage here.

1. He wouldn't take her seriously (or as seriously as Batman). Meaning, he doesn't really want to hurt a female child.

2. She can predict him well.

Steve may win a slight majority but because of 1. this fight is highly debatable.

Originally posted by h1a8
Steve is kinda at a disadvantage here.

1. He wouldn't take her seriously (or as seriously as Batman). Meaning, he doesn't really want to hurt a female child.

2. She can predict him well.

Steve may win a slight majority but because of 1. this fight is highly debatable.

Can't really see how he can even hit her, never mind beat her.. She's basically a pre cog.

Cap, but Cass makes him work for it.

Originally posted by h1a8
Steve is kinda at a disadvantage here.

1. He wouldn't take her seriously (or as seriously as Batman). Meaning, he doesn't really want to hurt a female child.

Tell that to X-23...

http://24.media.tumblr.com/8c16b7c920f75137b918e121ffd885f9/tumblr_miuai6YgSQ1qk1lf7o1_500.jpg

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Tell that to X-23...

http://24.media.tumblr.com/8c16b7c920f75137b918e121ffd885f9/tumblr_miuai6YgSQ1qk1lf7o1_500.jpg

What issue is that from?

Originally posted by -Pr-
What issue is that from?

X-23: Target X. Limited series, 6 issues total.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
X-23: Target X. Limited series, 6 issues total.

Oh, the one with Daredevil. I remember now.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Oh, the one with Daredevil. I remember now.

Yup

I briefly got my hopes up that Choi was back on X-Men.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I briefly got my hopes up that Choi was back on X-Men.

Great artist. He drew a few issues of X-Force (pre-Remender, just before Necrosha started). After that he worked on Astonishing Thor, the arc with the Collector and Ego.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Great artist. He drew a few issues of X-Force (pre-Remender, just before Necrosha started). After that he worked on Astonishing Thor, the arc with the Collector and Ego.

Yeah, I've seen those. I know he's somewhat with DC right now, but it's like they don't want to give him a regular book. His work on GL was great.

Cap solidly, he is been pretty ridiculous in his new solo

We all know cass would win.

Cass wins.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Tell that to X-23...

Mind you, in his first meeting with X, she was disguised as an innocent person among a bunch of slaughtered people (who she killed), he took her to an ambulance, turned away, then she killed the people watching her and escaped.

He viewed her more as a weapon than a person for awhile after that. Even after learning she was controlled, he was very reluctant to view her as other than a killer first.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Tell that to X-23...

http://24.media.tumblr.com/8c16b7c920f75137b918e121ffd885f9/tumblr_miuai6YgSQ1qk1lf7o1_500.jpg x-23 is a mutant that has a healing factor and it's nigh hard to kill or permanently injure. So Cap wouldn't mind not holding back on her.

Can someone post the Cap and X23 fight.

Originally posted by cdtm
I'd have given Steve fair odds against Wonder Girl.

... uh, what? Pre reboot Cassandra could catch planes and soak up a lot of damage. Her old school bracers withstood the atom axe and SPB. Plus she's a sonic speedster.

Originally posted by Konton
... uh, what? Pre reboot Cassandra could catch planes and soak up a lot of damage. Her old school bracers withstood the atom axe and SPB. Plus she's a sonic speedster.

Oh yeah, on stats she should own him.

But I'm thinking of the "A list factor". You know, the super power that makes an A lister overshadow a C lister, even if the C lister has vastly better stats.

Ergo: Of course, ROBIN is the only guy who could hold his own against Harm! Wonder Girl and Superboy fall apart like a stack of cards in a stiff breeze, while Robin roughs him up.

I guess Robin > Superboy in the fan boy hierarchy, or something.

Originally posted by carver9
Can someone post the Cap and X23 fight.

That panel is pretty much all.

Originally posted by h1a8
x-23 is a mutant that has a healing factor and it's nigh hard to kill or permanently injure. So Cap wouldn't mind not holding back on her.

Steve gets a basic knowledge on Batgirl, he's not gonna hold back.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

Steve gets a basic knowledge on Batgirl, he's not gonna hold back.

Even if he did, I think it would even out, because she'd read body language and hold back herself.

Before her descent into the dark side, she was pretty honorable.

Like I said, we all know cass would win.

Why? Shes a better fighter, thats why.

Cap breaks her

Originally posted by -Pr-
Choi
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Great artist.

Originally posted by carver9
Can someone post the Cap and X23 fight.
They didn't fight.

Originally posted by iceman24567
Cap breaks her can he even touch her? I'm not so sure.

Originally posted by namorsubby
can he even touch her? I'm not so sure. No worries im sure for us both

Originally posted by iceman24567
No worries im sure for us both She has this nifty little skill and I'm curious as to exactly how cap can negate. Care to elaborate?

Originally posted by namorsubby
can he even touch her? I'm not so sure.

I'm sure he can't.

Originally posted by namorsubby
She has this nifty little skill and I'm curious as to exactly how cap can negate. Care to elaborate? Why would he need to negate anything? He will be able to grab and power bomb her little ass. Her ability and skill are overrated and Cap is border line superhuman so he breaks her.

Cass evaded Slade before and hes metahuman (and faster). How does he get around her predicting his every move?

Originally posted by namorsubby
Cass evaded Slade before and hes metahuman (and faster). How does he get around her predicting his every move? The same way anybody else does? Cass has been tagged lets not act like shes untouchable and Cap is vastly more durable she gets tired Cap bashes her face in.

Edited title for clarity.

Originally posted by iceman24567
The same way anybody else does? Cass has been tagged lets not act like shes untouchable and Cap is vastly more durable she gets tired Cap bashes her face in. I think theres a better chance that she renders his arms useless than him "bashing her face in", but to each his own.

Originally posted by iceman24567
The same way anybody else does? Cass has been tagged lets not act like shes untouchable

Mind you, she tends to do multiple tags for every one that hits her, even against high-level foes.

And a lot of the times she's been tagged, it's because of circumstances like taking a shot for someone else or what have you. Her getting hit in a strait fight is rather rare. I don't think Ravager managed it once, to name another superhuman.

Captain America wins to me. Cap is her physical superior in virtually every aspect, has Heaps more experience, and possesses one of the best weapons in the history of comics (and hes a Master at using it). Cass will make him work for it, no doubt about it, but in the end Cap will come out the winner much more often than not.

Originally posted by DTM
Captain America wins to me. Cap is her physical superior in virtually every aspect, has Heaps more experience, and possesses one of the best weapons in the history of comics (and hes a Master at using it). Cass will make him work for it, no doubt about it, but in the end Cap will come out the winner much more often than not. its h2h. No weapons/shield. I'd put my money on Cassie speedwise, and she can predict his moves. That and shes just more skilled as a fighter.

Ah, I see. Well still Cap for me, he just has more overall advantages, but its much closer now.

Originally posted by Q99
I don't think Ravager managed it once, to name another superhuman.

Yeah, and when she gets tagged a lot or looks weak, it's usually against blatant metas. Black Wind, and this female meta that dressed like a girl scout of school girl in her solo series spring to mind.

Originally posted by DTM
Cap is her physical superior in virtually every aspect,

There's still a fair list in Blackbat's favor. Speed feats, agility, and a brain that can focus on each move to a superhuman extent (it is 'mentally impossible' for a human to hit every move to as close to peak as Cassandra does).

Lower target area and lower mass means she's got defensive edge, inertia favors the smaller for maneuverability, and the reading means she's in pretty good shape.

Namor's Submissive ***** needs to realize that Cap would would choke slam the little wench.

Steve 8/10

Every fight is a good fight.

But enhanced stats, insane damage soak and insane durability add to that a boosted mind.

Plus A plus in hth. Cass be lucky to win but she can make it a fight but thats about it.

People are forgetting CIS, clearly Cap will hold back on Cass as she is female and young. She is also a hero (not a killer) who doesn't have a healing factor.

This puts Steve at a disadvantage. He will also underestimate her as well.

I say Cass wins a slight majority because of this.

Cap wins the vast majority

Caps condom needs to realize that Cass can predict his every move and counter. That, and shes just more skilled and a better fighter. We all know this. *sigh* We always have these problems in cap threads.

I'd have to say Cap

Originally posted by namorsubby
Caps condom needs to realize that Cass can predict his every move and counter. That, and shes just more skilled and a better fighter. We all know this. *sigh* We always have these problems in cap threads.

Well, there isn't even a consensus that Spidey beats Cap.

I'm kind of surprised Mr. X is doing so well in that other thread..

Uber Cap is the norm here in KMC. Other characters uber sides are condemned as invalid. Its strange.

in mere h2h cassandra beats steve

Originally posted by the Darkone
Cap wins the vast majority

Im going for Cass to win here. My reasons are

1. She can predict his movements and learn his style right away.
2. He will underestimate her
3. He will hold back since she's a young pretty girl hero.

So if anyone disagrees let's debate. This is a debating forum isn't it?

Originally posted by h1a8
Im going for Cass to win here. My reasons are

1. She can predict his movements and learn his style right away.
2. He will underestimate her
3. He will hold back since she's a young pretty girl hero.

So if anyone disagrees let's debate. This is a debating forum isn't it?


Anyone who's trained in Martial arts before knows that the difference between male and female strength always remains a big freaking deal even when technique is factored in. As someone else mentioned, with Cap we are talking about borderline superhuman strength. It doesn't matter whether she has semi-precognition or not, she can't stop him from tackling her by doing anything other than just running in the other direction.

If I put a 200 pound Olympic wrestler in front of you, and he tells you he is going to shoot in and take you down (so that you effectively have precognition) you still won't be able to stop him. Haven't we learned that already from the whole MMA thing?

On top of that Cap also has borderline superhuman speed which means even her anticipation is going to be somewhat tested.

But to a certain extent I agree with h1a8's conclusion. Cap will take her down and simply try to restrain her rather than do anything damaging. She bites him, he releases her, and then she administers a groin kick followed by a general beating. It's Captain America's character that would lose this for him in the end.

I could see Cap underestimate her due to her size. But he will adapt super quick.

Plus I don't see either in character going for attacks like biting, groin hitting, poking eyes...etc etc.

These two in character would not normally do that. As if this is just a one on one fight with no other lives on the line I doubt that would change much.

Someone has yet to explain how Steve will negate Cass predicting his every move. Anyone?

Originally posted by Perceiver1
Anyone who's trained in Martial arts before knows that the difference between male and female strength always remains a big freaking deal even when technique is factored in. As someone else mentioned, with Cap we are talking about borderline superhuman strength. It doesn't matter whether she has semi-precognition or not, she can't stop him from tackling her by doing anything other than just running in the other direction.

If I put a 200 pound Olympic wrestler in front of you, and he tells you he is going to shoot in and take you down (so that you effectively have precognition) you still won't be able to stop him. Haven't we learned that already from the whole MMA thing?

On top of that Cap also has borderline superhuman speed which means even her anticipation is going to be somewhat tested.

But to a certain extent I agree with h1a8's conclusion. Cap will take her down and simply try to restrain her rather than do anything damaging. She bites him, he releases her, and then she administers a groin kick followed by a general beating. It's Captain America's character that would lose this for him in the end. This is comics and street levelers are always much stronger than normal human beings (including Cass). In the comic world, pressure points are shown as God. That means they always work. Cass being very skilled can apply them generously and negate the strength advantage.

LOL you don't know much about wrestling or MMA do you? If a fighter is skilled enough they can easily prevent being taken down. It takes agility, reflexes, and speed and technique.

Anyone in MA knows that attempting to tackle an exceptionally skilled fighter (and one who can predict it coming a mile away) will not only fail but open them self up for attack. Plus Cap doesn't fight that way usually (especially against females). Cap will naturally hold back, underestimate her, etc. until it's too late.
She would have learned his style by then. Cass knowing up front that he's a lot stronger will easily resort to pressure point striking (and will succeed since Cap will underestimate her and open himself up more easily).

Cis off and Cap can win the majority (but it still wont be easy)

Originally posted by namorsubby
Someone has yet to explain how Steve will negate Cass predicting his every move. Anyone?
By being (comic level) superhumanly fast

cap might underestimate her in the first match of 10, but after that his physical advantages would net him the wins. cap for a heavy majority imo. the skill advantage isn't nearly as great as the strength and durability advantage and likely cap's overall speed advantage as well.

Originally posted by leonidas
cap might underestimate her in the first match of 10, but after that his physical advantages would net him the wins. cap for a heavy majority imo. the skill advantage isn't nearly as great as the strength and durability advantage and likely cap's overall speed advantage as well.

But consider the use of pressure points combined with predicting Cap's every move and also learning his style while fighting him and you see it another way.

Originally posted by h1a8
This is comics and street levelers are always much stronger than normal human beings (including Cass). In the comic world, pressure points are shown as God. That means they always work. Cass being very skilled can apply them generously and negate the strength advantage.

LOL you don't know much about wrestling or MMA do you? If a fighter is skilled enough they can easily prevent being taken down. It takes agility, reflexes, and speed and technique.

Anyone in MA knows that attempting to tackle an exceptionally skilled fighter (and one who can predict it coming a mile away) will not only fail but open them self up for attack. Plus Cap doesn't fight that way usually (especially against females). Cap will naturally hold back, underestimate her, etc. until it's too late.
She would have learned his style by then. Cass knowing up front that he's a lot stronger will easily resort to pressure point striking (and will succeed since Cap will underestimate her and open himself up more easily).

Cis off and Cap can win the majority (but it still wont be easy)
Cap has used pressure points in the past, so I'm not sure why your bringing this up?

What are you basing this on? They have basic knowledge of each other, not to mention Cap has females in his rogue gallery...

Cap wins this solidly without pis

Originally posted by h1a8
But consider the use of pressure points combined with predicting Cap's every move and also learning his style while fighting him and you see it another way.

i see cap as being able to defend against the pressure points--his natural speed can offset her ability to predict. he can also use them extremely effectively himself. he would only have to make solid contact once to shift this fight severely. if she missed her strike (and she is NOT infallible) he could end it far more quickly than she could. her precog is also not infallible and even knowing what's happening doesn't mean she could mount an offence or defence strong enough to withstand someone with borderline superhuman stats.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Cap has used pressure points in the past, so I'm not sure why your bringing this up?

What are you basing this on? They have basic knowledge of each other, not to mention Cap has females in his rogue gallery...

Cap wins this solidly without pis

Originally posted by leonidas
i see cap as being able to defend against the pressure points--his natural speed can offset her ability to predict. he can also use them extremely effectively himself. he would only have to make solid contact once to shift this fight severely. if she missed her strike (and she is NOT infallible) he could end it far more quickly than she could. her precog is also not infallible and even knowing what's happening doesn't mean she could mount an offence or defence strong enough to withstand someone with borderline superhuman stats.

He can't defend if he's open due to being predicted. Counter attack buddy.
Prediction makes that happen.

Pressure points are God in comics. You can apply them to characters several orders of magnitude above your physicality and they will still work. Cap's durability will be bypassed instantly.
If Cap hits her then he isn't going to hit her very hard. Remember she's a young kid, a pretty female, and a hero. He's holding back indeed.
You are right, neither fighter is infallible and that is why I give Cass a small majority. Now taking Cis away I would give Cap the majority.


Originally posted by pym-ftw
Cap has used pressure points in the past, so I'm not sure why your bringing this up?

What are you basing this on? They have basic knowledge of each other, not to mention Cap has females in his rogue gallery...

Cap wins this solidly without pis Cap using pressure points doesn't mean he's immune to them. I'm bringing it up because her prediction power will give her an opportunity to counter him with a pressure point strike.
Basic knowledge includes Cap's strength and fighting skill and also Cass fighting skill. Basic knowledge doesn't include Cass predicting skills or her learning ability.

So you admit cap isn't holding back, and cap also uses these "God" lvl pressure points...

Cap is superhumanly fast, both in movement, reflexes, and perception. He might as well have assumed precog here, he sees the world around him as slower than average peak humans...

Not to mention even if he misses a pressure point a single strike from cap would be devastating...

Originally posted by pym-ftw
So you admit cap isn't holding back, and cap also uses these "God" lvl pressure points...

Cap is superhumanly fast, both in movement, reflexes, and perception. He might as well have assumed precog here, he sees the world around him as slower than average peak humans...

Not to mention even if he misses a pressure point a single strike from cap would be devastating... Cass is superhumanly fast too. She was dodging bullets matrix style with utmost ease. This is greater than anything Cap has done. So she might be faster than Steven.

No, I admit that if Cap doesn't hold back then he can win the majority. But since he's holding back here and given Cass advantages I say Cass wins the majority.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
By being (comic level) superhumanly fast Negative. Shes done it to Slade and hes faster. Try again.

Cass is probably faster anyway.

Going by feats Cap wins after a great long fight.
Going by what KMC generally believes in.. Cap effortlessly flicks her to death while making an omlet with the other hand. He then proceeds to do it to every other DC street leveler.

Does anyone have those scans of Cap outracing bullets to its target?

Yeah, those ones that were clearly visually misinterpreted because Cap has never demonstrated supersonic running speed.

Originally posted by carver9
Does anyone have those scans of Cap outracing bullets to its target?

I debunked that feat a long time ago.
Cap never outraced a bullet.


1. The artist drew it wrong. Cap got there before Skull shot by the intentions.

or

2. Since Skull couldn't have squeeze off another shot before the bullet hit its target then Skull missed the first three shots, and Cap blocked the second three. The next panel could either be interpreted as stuff from the dresser failing or the writer miscounting the bullets.


or

3. PIS and doesn't count anyway.

1. makes the most sense though. but 2. can be a possibility.

Originally posted by namorsubby
Yeah, those ones that were clearly visually misinterpreted because Cap has never demonstrated supersonic running speed.

Just like Cass being untouchable huh?

Tbh i also saw it as artists mistake (not that Steve doesnt have bullet time feats, he does) in that particular scene he jumped from one part of the room to another than somehow teported back to where Skull was standing. The way I saw it writers intention was for him to leap in front of the bullet, not beat it to its target.

Originally posted by h1a8
I debunked that feat a long time ago.
Cap never outraced a bullet.


1. The artist drew it wrong. Cap got there before Skull shot by the intentions.

or

2. Since Skull couldn't have squeeze off another shot before the bullet hit its target then Skull missed the first three shots, and Cap blocked the second three. The next panel could either be interpreted as stuff from the dresser failing or the writer miscounting the bullets.


or

3. PIS and doesn't count anyway.

1. makes the most sense though. but 2. can be a possibility.

That scene is hardly Cap's only bullet-time feat.

Originally posted by SamZED
Going by feats Cap wins after a great long fight.
Going by what KMC generally believes in.. Cap effortlessly flicks her to death while making an omlet with the other hand. He then proceeds to do it to every other DC street leveler.

Its not like Cass is super sonic anyways and speed feats she's not out doing Steve's speed feats. Cass shines in skill and her body reading but Steve has more advantages I think.

Originally posted by Silent Master
That scene is hardly Cap's only bullet-time feat.

Nope, but he doesn't have many, and Cass has more, and more consistent, feats.

It's also pretty common for run of the mill aim dodging feats to get miss-labeled as bullet dodging, among all street levelers.. I think Batman only has one or two legit ones himself, and I don't consider him a bullet dodger by any means..

Cap oneshots and gives a freedom speech.

F*ck you commies. Steve one shots her.

Originally posted by leonidas
i see cap as being able to defend against the pressure points--his natural speed can offset her ability to predict. he can also use them extremely effectively himself. he would only have to make solid contact once to shift this fight severely. if she missed her strike (and she is NOT infallible) he could end it far more quickly than she could. her precog is also not infallible and even knowing what's happening doesn't mean she could mount an offence or defence strong enough to withstand someone with borderline superhuman stats.

He's no longer borderline and is straight up Superhuman. At this point his average levels might very well be closer to Spider-Man than Batman.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
F*ck you commies. Steve one shots her.



He's no longer borderline and is straight up Superhuman. At this point his average levels might very well be closer to Spider-Man than Batman.

cool....

Cassies ability to predict moves is simply being glossed over.

Steve dodged sniper fire after its been shot, sniper fire is supersonic

Cap has also seen bullets coming at him then dodged

Lol @H1's argument that Cap will hold back being his only argument

Originally posted by namorsubby
Cassies ability to predict moves is simply being glossed over.

Or Steve is just good enough to get past it and win.

Originally posted by namorsubby
Cassies ability to predict moves is simply being glossed over.

Just because it's good enough to get her the win over Slade, doesn't mean it's enough against someone like Cap.

Cap cant counter it. No one whos going for him is even attempting to give any reason why it would be ineffective. There isnt one.

sure there is. even KNOWING something is coming doesn't mean that it can be adequately defended all the time, or that someone will necessarily possess the speed or skill to take full advantage of it all the time. you say we're ignoring it, but you're making it sound as though her skill and precog is perfect and infallible. that is manifestly untrue and sounds quite a bit like falling back on a no limits fallacy.

Originally posted by namorsubby
Cap cant counter it. No one whos going for him is even attempting to give any reason why it would be ineffective. There isnt one.

Just because Slade can't counter it, doesn't mean Steve can't.

Originally posted by h1a8


LOL you don't know much about wrestling or MMA do you? If a fighter is skilled enough they can easily prevent being taken down. It takes agility, reflexes, and speed and technique.

No actually it takes more than skill, it also takes the absence of a ridiculous strength advantage between the two fighters. You can't use two MMA guys of approximately the same strength level fighting in a cage to demonstrate your point. Yes, one of THEM will be able to sprawl and escape from one another. What shouldn't be disputable is that she will be unable to avoid the clinch, and if she cannot avoid the clinch, Cap takes her down with sheer strength.

Here is a clip of Ronda Roussey grappling with Gegard Mousasi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9xjs2fWJEs

Although there is no attempts at sprawling escapes made here (from what I remember ) you can see Rousey's Olympic level Judo and general grappling technique just get continually brushed aside by sheer power. No way Mousasi is a better grappler.



It's the instinct of most males to grab women when they attack, especially if they don't want to hurt them. Of Course Cap doesn't normally fight that way, if he fought the way he normally did he would be closer to just going all out.

As for pressure points, well if you say their usually god in comic books I guess she may use them to break free, but I say she doesn't get a chance until she's already down..

It's not like she's as strong as she looks. By comic feats she's pretty much on the level of the guys. Slade's strength didn't really phase her. She's strong enough to litteraly jump to the top of a sky scraper by jumping back and forth between two tall buildings Mario style in the same amount of time it took Nightwing to zipline the same distance IIRC.

Originally posted by Konton
It's not like she's as strong as she looks. By comic feats she's pretty much on the level of the guys. Slade's strength didn't really phase her. She's strong enough to litteraly jump to the top of a sky scraper by jumping back and forth between two tall buildings Mario style in the same amount of time it took Nightwing to zipline the same distance IIRC.

She's also kicked through a brick wall and punched through bulletproof glass at a jail.

Batman once instructed her to KO a super tough meta in this words: "Hit him hard enough to crush a normal person's skull."

Originally posted by Q99
She's also kicked through a brick wall ."


lol Well if we're going by comic book feats alone instead of logic, physics and sanity (a 2000 pound buffalo can't even do that).

But then we could supe up a lot of heroes by looking at comic book feats alone , including Cap.

Originally posted by cdtm
Nope, but he doesn't have many, and Cass has more, and more consistent, feats.

It's also pretty common for run of the mill aim dodging feats to get miss-labeled as bullet dodging, among all street levelers.. I think Batman only has one or two legit ones himself, and I don't consider him a bullet dodger by any means..



Good thing Cap is not Bruce.

As there resident with bullet time scenes, has noticed Steve is much faster then him.(Daredevil).

Plus Cass might have more bullet scenes but if you are really trying to go the super sonic route.(which is dubious considering her record against her A-list)

Cap has laser feats that decimate Cass super sound feats and many more in comparison to her. This logic I don't even agree with but just using your own logic against you.

Does he? I mean, there is aim dodging a laser, but that doesn't require any more speed than aim-dodging anything else, it just requires you to not be there when the laser fires.

Cass's bullet dodging is noticeable that she is on multiple occasions shown to move after the bullet's left the barrel. Or in the most famous feat, moving into the path after it's left the barrel, on purpose, then leave again, because she can.

Then there's the feat of her dodging a sniper bullet.. after it left the barrel... and was only inches away from her head... with her back turned.. but she's a DC so it doesnt count.

Originally posted by Q99
Does he? I mean, there is aim dodging a laser, but that doesn't require any more speed than aim-dodging anything else, it just requires you to not be there when the laser fires.

Cass's bullet dodging is noticeable that she is on multiple occasions shown to move after the bullet's left the barrel. Or in the most famous feat, moving into the path after it's left the barrel, on purpose, then leave again, because she can.

Accept Cap has multy blocked random lasers with gauntlets not dodged as you claim but blocked with "hand" speed easily.

Also there is the other time when he has blocked multiple laser shots with this shield in different areas suggest again incredible reflex speeds.


Then there is the other time that the "rolled with the punch" only this time the punch was a laser beam to reduce the energies impact.

All these suggest laser time. Then there is the major one the time he dodged like 12-13 laser beams while under "zero" gravity.

Now this is one feat you can argue dodged the aim.....but all 13 beams and simultaneous dodged all of there tracking and while under zero gravity.

Then yeah.......you'll be up a creek with no paddle. Plus lets not forget it was explained that it's her body "reading" that lets her dodge the bullet in certain instances......because with that "she" can.

if you're all making a case for her being faster than cap, i can certainly entertain the argument. i've seen and read enough with cass to feel i know her character pretty well, but some scans to refresh and highlight might be helpful.

as for the strength disparity though, there is no way that's even close imo. speed and skill i could see someone believing either way. we have seen cap beat on spidey though, and i'd say his precog>cass's. and we've seen spidey focus his spidey sense many times so that it has essentially worked just like cass's in the past to predict very specific attacks. and fast as people claim cap or cass is, neither is in spidey's class. if he can get by pete's precog, i don't see why so many feel getting around cass's would be such a huge stretch. unless you want to fall on the old PIS argument, which i don't find valid in this case because of the consistency of cap's character and abilities.....

Originally posted by SamZED
Then there's the feat of her dodging a sniper bullet.. after it left the barrel... and was only inches away from her head... with her back turned.. but she's a DC so it doesnt count.


Sure it counts. But if we count these as "legitimate" speed feats. The Cap's count as well.


But it's irrelevant since they both get punched and kicked by characters who are not moving faster then a speeding bullet.

Spidey is a whole different story. As for Cass... going to need an expert... but off the top of my head I recall her shoving Deathstroke head first through a brick wall. Not bad. I do agree Cap is stronger though.

Originally posted by leonidas
if you're all making a case for her being faster than cap, i can certainly entertain the argument. i've seen and read enough with cass to feel i know her character pretty well, but some scans to refresh and highlight might be helpful.

as for the strength disparity though, there is no way that's even close imo. speed and skill i could see someone believing either way. we have seen cap beat on spidey though, and i'd say his precog>cass's. and we've seen spidey focus his spidey sense many times so that it has essentially worked just like cass's in the past to predict very specific attacks. and fast as people claim cap or cass is, neither is in spidey's class. if he can get by pete's precog, i don't see why so many feel getting around cass's would be such a huge stretch. unless you want to fall on the old PIS argument, which i don't find valid in this case because of the consistency of cap's character and abilities.....
Spidey is a whole different story. As for Cass... going to need an expert... but off the top of my head I recall her shoving Deathstroke head first through a brick wall. Not bad. I do agree Cap is stronger though.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Sure it counts. But if we count these as "legitimate" speed feats. The Cap's count as well.


But it's irrelevant since they both get punched and kicked by characters who are not moving faster then a speeding bullet. Who says Cap's feats don't count? But I wouldnt go as far as using laser dodging as a proof that he's >>> lasers. Maybe if they're Star Wars-like lasers.

Originally posted by SamZED
Spidey is a whole different story.

whole different story how? i think the comparison is pretty relevant and unless you want to call pis on spidey vs cap, i think the comparison is also quite apt. least imo.

Aim-predicting with hands, then. It's not like he reacted to the laser in mid-air, he moved his shield into it's path.



Again, all that shows is he can aim-avoid/block/etc. 12-13 at once. If you can handle judging when they're going to fire by whatever signs they give off, then the speed of the shot doesn't matter too much.



Tracking 13 aims at once =/= moving as fast as a laser. One's impressive, the other is silly (unless you're the Flash).



Body reading lets her know where a bullet is going. Then using this anticipation to move in to the path of a bullet, then out again, both while it's in mid-air, is speed.




It's more, Cassandra is as good a martial artist as anyone, and she has that split-second edge. With Spider-man, a top martial artist can kinda plan ahead past the reaction of the spidey sense. With Cass, well, she's planning ahead too, it's just she's got an edge in reading ahead.

It's not a warning like Peter's, it's an 'when she's looking at you, she knows what your muscles are doing, what those are a sign of, and what that leads to.' A slightest beginning of movements is seen and translated into the combo that follows.

And it's not impossible to hit her with it, but there's no 'trick' to getting around it, so even very good foes will have trouble.

Originally posted by leonidas
if you're all making a case for her being faster than cap, i can certainly entertain the argument. i've seen and read enough with cass to feel i know her character pretty well, but some scans to refresh and highlight might be helpful.

as for the strength disparity though, there is no way that's even close imo. speed and skill i could see someone believing either way. we have seen cap beat on spidey though, and i'd say his precog>cass's. and we've seen spidey focus his spidey sense many times so that it has essentially worked just like cass's in the past to predict very specific attacks. and fast as people claim cap or cass is, neither is in spidey's class. if he can get by pete's precog, i don't see why so many feel getting around cass's would be such a huge stretch. unless you want to fall on the old PIS argument, which i don't find valid in this case because of the consistency of cap's character and abilities.....

Spidey is very good and similar. But IMO Daredevil is much more similar to Cass as his Radar/Super Senses help provide him a body read ability. As he to has similar sniper bullet feet where the bullet is inches away from his face and he dodges it as well. As it's no secret as well that Daredevil once noted that Steve is much faster then him while running....and during one of there fights in a battle he noted the same thing. Bullet time is just sadly overrated.

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9738/daredevilvol200920.jpg

Originally posted by Q99
It's more, Cassandra is as good a martial artist as anyone, and she has that split-second edge. With Spider-man, a top martial artist can kinda plan ahead past the reaction of the spidey sense. With Cass, well, she's planning ahead too, it's just she's got an edge in reading ahead.

It's not a 'warning' like Peter's, it's an 'at all times she's looking at you, she knows what your muscles are doing, what those are a sign of, and what that leads to.'

fiar enough, but like i said, we've seen spidey able to focus on specific attacks. his sense can and has functioned like cass's in the past. and his flat out speed advantage is still not enough to save him when he faces cap. cap's also proven flat out faster than IF, who's MA need not be discussed.

bottom line, even focusing on him, spidey can't match cap in h2h. i don't see cass's ability allowing her to do any better. and since she lacks spidey's obvious speed and strength advantage, i don't see how she takes too many--especially if cap realizes how formidable she is and doesn't hold back.....

Originally posted by leonidas
whole different story how? i think the comparison is pretty relevant and unless you want to call pis on spidey vs cap, i think the comparison is also quite apt. least imo. Not going to call PIS but definitely going to call CIS. Spidey's efectiveness heavilly dependant on how much his head's in the fight. Same goes for his spider sense.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Spidey is very good and similar. But IMO Daredevil is much more similar to Cass as his Radar/Super Senses help provide him a body read ability. As he to has similar sniper bullet feet where the bullet is inches away from his face and he dodges it as well. As it's no secret as well that Daredevil once noted that Steve is much faster then him while running....and during one of there fights in a battle he noted the same thing. Bullet time is just sadly overrated.

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9738/daredevilvol200920.jpg

dd is a good comparison (dd/cass would be a GREAT fight imo) but i brought up spidey because, as i said, he CAN focus his senses and he also has a significant speed and strength advantage on cap (maybe not strength so much anymore....?)

but yeah, i see your point. i think his battles with both spidey and dd tell us that ltd precog=/=insta-win for someone battling cap. not dd, not spidey and not cass.

Originally posted by SamZED
Not going to call PIS but definitely going to call CIS. Spidey's efectiveness heavilly dependant on how much his head's in the fight. Same goes for his spider sense.

meh, maybe. i think even a fully focused pete is gonna have problems with cap though (but spidey would beat him in the end) but your point is fair. i still think the comparison is a relevant one though.

Originally posted by Q99
Aim-predicting with hands, then. It's not like he reacted to the laser in mid-air, he moved his shield into it's path.

Wrong he moved his shield in "multiple" laser shots.






Accept that was done in zero gravity you can make a arguement for 1 to 2 as aim dodging but all 12-13. Nope.





It's no more silly then you suggesting Cass is faster then the speed of sound.





Cass with her body reading and just "pure speed" got tagged by a non-human using a cybernetic gun control. Implying she need her body reading and her speed is not enough.








This part I agree and it makes Cass super formidable. Heck I can actually see the argument of why Cass wins. But not because of her silly "bullet time speed" feats. Her body reading route is the right way. Her skill being a A+......is the right way.


Her stalemating Deathstroke who is very similar to Steve in stats.....is the right way. Cass will be a challenge but I'm just going with Steve overall due to his other advantages.

A good case can be made for both which both side won't be able to agree with.

Originally posted by leonidas
meh, maybe. i think even a fully focused pete is gonna have problems with cap though (but spidey would beat him in the end) but your point is fair. i still think the comparison is a relevant one though. Oh im not arguing he'd have trouble (even in Slott's recent story a mindcontrolled Cap surprised now kung-fu trained Spider-man with his speed). Just saying there's a huge gap between "friendly neighbourhood" Spider-man and "i'll tear your face off back-in-black" Spider-man. But didnt Cap have trouble with DD in their last encounter?

Originally posted by SamZED
Oh im not arguing he'd have trouble (even in Slott's recent story a mindcontrolled Cap surprised now kung-fu trained Spider-man with his speed). Just saying there's a huge gap between "friendly neighbourhood" Spider-man and "i'll tear your face off back-in-black" Spider-man. But didnt Cap have trouble with DD in their last encounter? You mean when DD caught his shield?

Originally posted by iceman24567
You mean when DD caught his shield? He did? I dont remember that, only remember DD avoiding Cap's attacks for a short period of time.

Originally posted by SamZED
He did? I dont remember that, only remember DD avoiding Cap's attacks for a short period of time. Not 100% sure but i do remember them swapping weapons some how.

You sure you're not thinking of Caps fight with Deadpool?

I mean this.

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/838/cap6v.th.jpg

Originally posted by SamZED
I mean this.

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/838/cap6v.th.jpg No it was post Shadowland DD

Originally posted by leonidas
fiar enough, but like i said, we've seen spidey able to focus on specific attacks. his sense can and has functioned like cass's in the past. and his flat out speed advantage is still not enough to save him when he faces cap. cap's also proven flat out faster than IF, who's MA need not be discussed.

bottom line, even focusing on him, spidey can't match cap in h2h. i don't see cass's ability allowing her to do any better. and since she lacks spidey's obvious speed and strength advantage, i don't see how she takes too many--especially if cap realizes how formidable she is and doesn't hold back.....

Except Cassandra is far more skilled than Spidey- it's not the specific move, it's the anticipating the whole combo, of seeing the trap that'll lead to the blow. That takes a martial artist.


Lemme also note she has Taskmaster ability. Not from an additional ability, it's just martial arts is so intuitive to her that seeing any move once is enough to know how to do it and incorporate it into her move set. And Tasky *has* done well against Capt on occasion.




Ok? He anticipated them in succession.

If they were literally the same time, then speed or anticipation, neither would do. If they were in rapid succession, then judging where they'll be coming works.



Zero G should have zero effect on whether it was aim-anticipated or not.



It's actually far, far more silly. Literally orders of magnitude more silly... especially as the feats can be done with anticipation, and the panels certainly do not show the lasers in-flight.


Here, here is Cassandra moving into the way of, and out of the way, of bullets:

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/9528/bulletdancexq4.jpg


And here is sniper-bullet dodging:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/102264/2686298-batgirl_022_10_11.jpg

I remember seeing a scan of her running past a bunch of guards into a building so fast they didnt realise what happened. Quicksilver-style.

Originally posted by SamZED
I remember seeing a scan of her running past a bunch of guards into a building so fast they didnt realise what happened. Quicksilver-style.

that would be a good one. i've seen the bullet dodging. good, not doubt. not as good as iron fist's though, and again, cap>danny. i THINK i know the dd fight you're talking about sam, but dd would def give cap some trouble--as cassandra would. i'm not saying these fights would be easy, but i'm saying cap's speed, strength and durability advantages would add up in the end to give him a solid majority, imo. the skill disparity isn't nearly great enough imo for cass to make up the differences in the other areas and i don't see her precog being enough either, especially once cap figures out what is is she's doing--and he would, quickly. i'll take cap here 7-8/10 but i do sort of get the other side--if you fully believe in the precog i get why you'd say she wins more often than not. i just don't think the ability is anything new for steve, and that his physical stats would let him overcome it.

Originally posted by SamZED
Then there's the feat of her dodging a sniper bullet.. after it left the barrel... and was only inches away from her head... with her back turned.. but she's a DC so it doesnt count.
I hate the Pis argument, but it is from the perspective I read it

She dodged after hearing it, which is impossible if its supersonic

If its a lower calibur hunting rifle its still a solid feat, just not supersonic.

Originally posted by leonidas
that would be a good one. i've seen the bullet dodging. good, not doubt. not as good as iron fist's though, and again, cap>danny. i THINK i know the dd fight you're talking about sam, but dd would def give cap some trouble--as cassandra would. i'm not saying these fights would be easy, but i'm saying cap's speed, strength and durability advantages would add up in the end to give him a solid majority, imo. the skill disparity isn't nearly great enough imo for cass to make up the differences in the other areas and i don't see her precog being enough either, especially once cap figures out what is is she's doing--and he would, quickly. i'll take cap here 7-8/10 but i do sort of get the other side--if you fully believe in the precog i get why you'd say she wins more often than not. i just don't think the ability is anything new for steve, and that his physical stats would let him overcome it. I actually believe Cap woul win this. I only have a problem with "Marvel by definition stomps" thing that's been going on on KMC for awhile now. Cass is as good of street level martial as one can get. Should be a good fight either way.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
I hate the Pis argument, but it is from the perspective I read it

She dodged after hearing it, which is impossible if its supersonic

If its a lower calibur hunting rifle its still a solid feat, just not supersonic. Don't think she heard it, always figured its sixth sense kind of thing. Still requires some crazy speed to pull that off.

Originally posted by Q99
Except Cassandra is far she has Taskmaster ability. Not from an additional ability, it's just martial arts is so intuitive to her that seeing any move once is enough to know how to do it and incorporate it into her move set. And Tasky *has* done
Ok? He anticipated them in succession

And here is sniper-bullet dodging:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/102264/2686298-batgirl_022_10_11.jpg

TaskMaster also has legit super human abilities with his double speed deal...

@Sam

Idk the way the art shifts to her ear, makes it look like she is dodging by sound...

The reason Cap would lose here is because

1. He will underestimate her
2. He will hold back
3. She will predict his initial movements and counter with pressure point strikes

Steve's strength is negated because of 2. and 3.
Steve's durability is negated because of 3.
Thus Steve doesn't have any tangible advantages (at least in the beginning).

Now if Steve wasn't holding back and already knew her style up front (prediction and learning) then the fight would be different I believe but still tough as hell for him.

I can't see Cap doing #1 or #2, tbh.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Lol @H1's argument that Cap will hold back being his only argument
Posted this three pages ago, still his only argument

Originally posted by -Pr-
I can't see Cap doing #1 or #2, tbh.

Cap has the strength to kill a human with a punch. You think he is going to hit her to kill her? She's pretty, a good person (hero), a female, and a child. Cap wouldn't be worthy at all if he just went and killed female girl MAs.

You right about him underestimating her though. I think he knows (by the rules of basic knowledge) that she is one of the best MA in the world.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Posted this three pages ago, still his only argument


I listed 3 things.

1. Cap holding back (he will)
2. Prediction ability
3. Learning ability.

Originally posted by h1a8
I listed 3 things.

1. Cap holding back (he will)
2. Prediction ability
3. Learning ability.
Are you real? The post before this you just agreed with Pr that he won't hold back, now your back to the same arguments

Prediction abilities give her a chance, but he is solidly faster..

Learning abilities

Originally posted by h1a8
Cap has the strength to kill a human with a punch. You think he is going to hit her to kill her? She's pretty, a good person (hero), a female, and a child. Cap wouldn't be worthy at all if he just went and killed female girl MAs.

You right about him underestimating her though. I think he knows (by the rules of basic knowledge) that she is one of the best MA in the world.

If she tried to kill him, he'd kill her in self defence. Cap is a soldier; it's not as if she's fighting someone like Batman, who would never kill her.

Originally posted by h1a8
I listed 3 things.

1. Cap holding back (he will)
2. Prediction ability
3. Learning ability.

No, the 3 things you listed were

1. He will underestimate her
2. He will hold back
3. She will predict his initial movements and counter with pressure point strikes

Originally posted by leonidas
sure there is. even KNOWING something is coming doesn't mean that it can be adequately defended all the time, or that someone will necessarily possess the speed or skill to take full advantage of it all the time. you say we're ignoring it, but you're making it sound as though her skill and precog is perfect and infallible. that is manifestly untrue and sounds quite a bit like falling back on a no limits fallacy. Her own level of speed is nothing to cough at.

Shes already used her perdiction ability on slade, who has superhuman speed, and the added brainpower which gives him a superfast calculating ability. Why wouldnt it work on cap? No reason, like I said.

I don't think that's what Leo was saying, tbh.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I don't think that's what Leo was saying, tbh.

sigh....no, it's not. but that's cool. sometimes round here there is simply no way to change opinion.

Originally posted by leonidas]that would be a good one. i've seen the bullet dodging. good, not doubt. not as good as iron fist's though, and again, cap>danny.

http://a1-wrestling.com/forum/Smileys/default/Francis.gif

Originally posted by Silent Master
No, the 3 things you listed were

1. He will underestimate her
2. He will hold back
3. She will predict his initial movements and counter with pressure point strikes Actually I listed 4 things. The learning ability was in a different post.

Originally posted by -Pr-
If she tried to kill him, he'd kill her in self defence. Cap is a soldier; it's not as if she's fighting someone like Batman, who would never kill her.

People try and kill Cap all the time, and he uses lethal force.

He's "capable" of killing, sure.

Originally posted by cdtm
People try and kill Cap all the time, and he uses lethal force.

He's "capable" of killing, sure.

Exactly. I don't think he'd flat out murder her, but if he had to do it to defend himself, I can't see him hesitating.

That said, I don't think he'd need to kill her to beat her.

Originally posted by leonidas
sigh....no, it's not. but that's cool. sometimes round here there is simply no way to change opinion. you guys are dodging the fact that you cannot give an adequate explanation for why and/or Cap will negate or overcome her ability.

Glossed over. Like I said.

Originally posted by namorsubby
you guys are dodging the fact that you cannot give an adequate explanation for why and/or Cap will negate or overcome her ability.

Glossed over. Like I said.

And it's puzzling, since many gave Mr. X the nod over Cap due to his similar, but different, move reading abilities.

A good start to arguing against Cass, would be giving examples of characters who flat out beat her skills, without extenuating circumstances or bad writing.

For example, the Joker beat it because for some reason, his insanity made his body language gibberish to her, which makes no sense given how body language works, and given the explanation of how her skill works (She's perceptive enough to detect and read rippling of the skin, and all kinds of tells that really wouldn't be obvious to normal people..)

So we can safely rule that example out as PIS.

Then you have Shiva, who flat out beat her once, and barely lost a second to her. Except, she re-taught Cass how to body read, implying she uses a form of the same skill.. Not really the same as someone overcoming her ability on exceptional, conventional talent.

Originally posted by h1a8
Actually I listed 4 things. The learning ability was in a different post.

Do you know what a list is?

Originally posted by Silent Master
Do you know what a list is? What does a list have to do with listing things? I can list things one at a time and one per year If I like. I still listed them.

Originally posted by -Pr-
If she tried to kill him, he'd kill her in self defence. Cap is a soldier; it's not as if she's fighting someone like Batman, who would never kill her.

She is not going to try to kill him. Batgirl doesn't kill (or at least heroes). She would be trying to ko Cap, nothing more. Remember this is h2h (she doesn't have blades or killing weapons so that Cap can miscontrue her intentions).

With that said, Cap isn't going to kill a female human kid, even if they did try to kill him. Hell, many many beings have tried to kill Cap and he didn't kill them but simply koed them.

Originally posted by h1a8
She is not going to try to kill him. Batgirl doesn't kill (or at least heroes). She would be trying to ko Cap, nothing more. Remember this is h2h (she doesn't have blades or killing weapons so that Cap can miscontrue her intentions).

With that said, Cap isn't going to kill a female human kid, even if they did try to kill him. Hell, many many beings have tried to kill Cap and he didn't kill them but simply koed them.
Agreed, except to her appearance being a factor...

Originally posted by h1a8
She is not going to try to kill him. Batgirl doesn't kill (or at least heroes). She would be trying to ko Cap, nothing more. Remember this is h2h (she doesn't have blades or killing weapons so that Cap can miscontrue her intentions).

With that said, Cap isn't going to kill a female human kid, even if they did try to kill him. Hell, many many beings have tried to kill Cap and he didn't kill them but simply koed them.

And you think that's some kind of disadvantage?

People who haven't been able to 'bypass' her move reading- Batman, Slade, her dad...

Originally posted by pym-ftw
TaskMaster also has legit super human abilities with his double speed deal...

Cassandra also has legit superhuman coordination and aggregate speed, plus the reading. More of her brain is dedicated to fighting than anyone else, and it is directly stated that moving like she does is mentally impossible for a normal human.

Here's the lab data:

Stats

Conclusions

They listed her as having superhuman speed and strength, and even after confirming no metagene, they leap to cybernetic accelerator implants.



---

As for the killing, it's simply not going to happen either way. Cass uses nerve strikes, Capt's quite skilled at hitting without killing. It's not going to matter.

Originally posted by namorsubby
you guys are dodging the fact that you cannot give an adequate explanation for why and/or Cap will negate or overcome her ability.

Glossed over. Like I said.

He's Cap. That's all the abiility he needs.

Originally posted by Q99


Ok? He anticipated them in succession.

If they were literally the same time, then speed or anticipation, neither would do. If they were in rapid succession, then judging where they'll be coming works.

It was shown all 4 beams at him in one panel and all 4 were blocked in one sequence. That is laser time.

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/9373/avengersv300807.jpg





Zero G have you ever tried moving under water guy? Now imagine worse under zero gravity where electronic guidance aim beams. Plus like I said you can argue 1-2 aim dodging but all of them and its a moot point.


http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/3711/avengersv123518rougher.jpg

Yeah plus the enclosed space to do all that. Well then you've got one of the most insane speed feats known to characters.






At least with Steve you got that sci fi silly SSS created by a mad scientest wanting human perfection to do his silly feats. Cass all you got is special martial arts.......no offense but faster then sound speed....or faster then light speed. Both are ridiculous for "human" at least Steve is the next step of human evolution.

Now with that stated, I don't agree with laser time nor bullet time. But this is your logic at work here.




Covered see above.




Covered above. Also here Steve rolls with the beam, while he was in mid-air.......LOL.Actually Steve does two feats in one. I just now notice this.....look below.

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/9902/captainamerica26717.jpg

Cap throws his shield at him while he deflects the shield with his laser beam sword and directs the shield at the crowd. Cap jumps mid flight to catch his shield. That's one feat of catching his shield by the force generated by the beam's speed and power.

While Cap is in midflight guy shoot Steve with his beam as Steve rolls with it reducing its power. To roll with a punch you go with it to reduce it. Steve did the same but with a beam........LOL.

Yeah pretty up there to move with a beam....on mid flight. Anyways bullet time.....laser time........its all irrelevant towards there fights with there peers.

Originally posted by Q99
People who haven't been able to 'bypass' her move reading- Batman, Slade, her dad...



IIRC her second match with Slade. She stated that he was odd or difficult to read.


Which is funny DD who can do somewhat similar to Cass also had trouble reading Steve originally. As both Slade/Steve are enhanced and both Cass/DD do there type of readings.


Now does this mean the readings or Steve/Slade are exactly the same?

No of course not....but the similarity is there.

Originally posted by namorsubby
you guys are dodging the fact that you cannot give an adequate explanation for why and/or Cap will negate or overcome her ability.

Glossed over. Like I said.



This is a fair point. But it's not always about perfect counter negation. You once told me you believe that Slade could take her in a fight in the end. Despite the showing that Cass can indeed stalemate him.

There stalemates imply in the end, that they could not negate the other.


Cap has had the advantage at times on Daredevil.....and Daredevil has had the advantage at times on him......but usually its a stalemate. Very similar to Cass/Slade.

They can't perfectly counter one or the other due to both there abilities. But with no stalemates and everything being equal I give the slight nod to Steve over DD....and Slade over Cass.

Truth be told this is a hard match up for Steve as it is for Slade as the argument can be made very well for both sides.