ROTS Mace Windu Vs AOTC/ROTS Count Dooku

Zett

Originally posted by axel_jovan
thumb up

It depends how we take Vaapad mechanics. The superconduciting loop should negate any difference in Force-power between the two (if there is a considerable difference that is)

To be honest, though I believe Dooku tends to be a bit underrated in these boards, I also think Mace's feats from Shatterpoint, CWC, CW etc. put him at almost ideal equal to the good, ol' Count.

Mace will win this duel, but just slightly.

And I believe, that Mace is overrated one. A lot of people believe, that he's top1 swordmaster of his times. But he is not. Yoda is.
1)As You pointed in another thread, according to script Yoda disarmed Sidious.
2) Dooku was unable to find any advantages when he fought Yoda twice.
3) Mace needed to broke the window, to slow down Sidious. Without that, the sword fight between them was pretty equal.
4) Dooku fought Mace twice - in CW: RH and Obsession. This two fights looks pretty equal (despite, that in RH Mace had Kenobi's aid).
5) Dooku looks better then Mace against Ventress and Bulq (even in saber fight - as I remeber he disarmed Bulq from one saber).

So it looks like, they (I mean Dooku / Mace / Sidious) are in the same league, along with Yoda and Anakin. But Yoda is a bit better.

And about force powers:
I dontt think, that typical dark force powers, like lightning, will give Dooku advantage. But I believe in his TK skill.

ROTJ Vader

In RH they don't show the fight I believe and it went pretty fast with Dooku losing and Dooku had magnagurds and lost pretty fast. But still I agree with your post.

axel_jovan

^ Well, I agree with the above.

Yoda and Sidiosu are at the absolute top.
Windu is not better saber duelist than Yoda, and certainly about equal to Dooku.
What I meant rather is that Windu's Force-power's are a bit underrated, and that Dooku, in general, is a bit underrated too.

ROTJ Vader

Originally posted by axel_jovan
^ Well, I agree with the above.

Yoda and Sidiosu are at the absolute top.
Windu is not better saber dueilst than Yoda, and certainly about equal to Dooku.
What I meant rather is that Windu's Force-power's are a bit underrated, and that Dooku, in general, is a bit underrated too.

agreed with this post thumb up

Q99

Personally I see Windu as the solid victor. Windu's younger and fitter and stronger in the force and while the battle would start out good the outcome would not be in doubt.

Sorta like Dooku vs Yoda- Dooku can hold him off but he certainly could not win.

axel_jovan

I' argue that Doooku has a bit better Force feats .....but yeah, I also see Windu winning this, but just slightly.

Based

Originally posted by Zett
And I believe, that Mace is overrated one. A lot of people believe, that he's top1 swordmaster of his times. But he is not. Yoda is.

So it looks like, they (I mean Dooku / Mace / Sidious) are in the same league, along with Yoda and Anakin. But Yoda is a bit better.

Being slightly worse than Yoda is debatable and even so, it hardly warrants calling Mace overrated.

ROTJ Vader

Originally posted by Based
Being slightly worse than Yoda is debatable and even so, it hardly warrants calling Mace overrated.

Yoda/Sidious beat Mace 7/10 in all out fight.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Based
Being slightly worse than Yoda is debatable and even so, it hardly warrants calling Mace overrated.

Mace Windu is so overrated are you kidding me? laughing

People ignore canon statements, character statements, and other feats because he won 1 duel.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yeah...because MagnaGuards~two of the finest blademasters the order has ever produced.

You'd be right, apparently.

Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that
generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes
that operated near lightspeed, each with hypersophisticated
heuristic combat algorithms that enabled it to learn from
experience and adapt its tactics instantly to any situation, were
certainly beyond Obi-Wan's ability to defeat, but it was not ObiWan
who would defeat them; Obi-Wan wasn't even fighting. He
was only a vessel, emptied of self. The Force, shaped by his skill
and guided by his clarity of mind, fought through him.

You can pretend all you like that Dooku is magically capable of taking on Obi-Wan and Mace combined, but the Count fled from Mace on Boz Pity. Unless he uses the Force to squash Obi-Wan with impunity, they'd wreck him.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You'd be right, apparently.

Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that
generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes
that operated near lightspeed, each with hypersophisticated
heuristic combat algorithms that enabled it to learn from
experience and adapt its tactics instantly to any situation, were
certainly beyond Obi-Wan's ability to defeat, but it was not ObiWan
who would defeat them; Obi-Wan wasn't even fighting. He
was only a vessel, emptied of self. The Force, shaped by his skill
and guided by his clarity of mind, fought through him.

You can pretend all you like that Dooku is magically capable of taking on Obi-Wan and Mace combined, but the Count fled from Mace on Boz Pity. Unless he uses the Force to squash Obi-Wan with impunity, they'd wreck him.

Outdated quote. Asoka Tano was able to defeat 3 MagnaGuards in TCW movie. Also Shaak Ti was able to duel with dozens simultaneously.

I am not saying that. All I am saying is I'd rather have Obi-Wan backing me up against Dooku, than MagnaGuards backing me up against Windu.

Also fled against Windu at Boz Pity? Hardly. The Count could have killed him at Boz Pity when those MagnaGuards grabbed him. Try again.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Outdated quote. Asoka Tano was able to defeat 3 MagnaGuards in TCW movie. Also Shaak Ti was able to duel with dozens simultaneously.

This assumes all MagnaGuards are identical in skill.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am not saying that. All I am saying is I'd rather have Obi-Wan backing me up against Dooku, than MagnaGuards backing me up against Windu.

That's nice.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Also fled against Windu at Boz Pity? Hardly. The Count could have killed him at Boz Pity when those MagnaGuards grabbed him. Try again.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/2151175-new_picture__14_.jpg

So half a dozen MagnaGuards are of no consequence when it suits your argument, but two would have let Dooku kill Mace on Boz Pity?

Nah.

Dooku instructed the droids to leave the Jedi to him but fled after sparring with Mace. You can make as many backhanded implications about Dooku's superiority all you like, but the bottom line is that he hauled ass rather than continue the fight. They're equals.

Zett

Originally posted by axel_jovan
^ Well, I agree with the above.

Yoda and Sidiosu are at the absolute top.
Windu is not better saber duelist than Yoda, and certainly about equal to Dooku.
What I meant rather is that Windu's Force-power's are a bit underrated, and that Dooku, in general, is a bit underrated too.

Ah, so I misunderstand You. Sorry ^^

@The_Tempest

Dooku had no time to deal with Mace. And this fight was a huge risk, that he cannot allow himself.

Vensai

Sources like DR or the Sourcebook would imply Dooku is Maces superior by some level. Dooku shows absolutely no fear when confronting Windu in AOTC. Dooku was the victor of their spars before he turned to the dark side. Dooku is a master of TK. Mace is deadly but this is the guy who went blade to blade with Yoda.

axel_jovan

Well, Mace not only went blade-to-blade with Sidious, but actually beat him in that part of the fight....

Vensai

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Well, Mace not only went blade-to-blade with Sidious, but actually beat him in that part of the fight....

He had Vaapad amp from a guy who was the dark side incarnate. Dooku would not give half the boost Mace got fors Sid. And Mace won cause of shatter point and the window, he was stale mating at best in sabers.

Zett

^
Dooku was better then Mace, but it was before Mace mastered his form (he ultimately did it in Shatterpoint, right?). After that, they were equal in term of sabers.

Anyway, I agree, that Dooku's Makashi will be better counter to Vapaad the Palpatine's Juyo.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This assumes all MagnaGuards are identical in skill.

They are not, the ones with cloaks have more skill. It does not however counter the fact that against the great swordbeings of the Jedi, MagnaGuards go down hard. They've been dehyped considerably in canon.

Would you disagree.

Red herring. MagnaGuards came from nowhere to ambush Mace. They were fully aware of them in the other scenario.

Uhhh, that's because the Republic was winning the battle, their top commander was incapacitated, and Ventress was running rampant. It doesn't take a tactical genius to realize the situation was unassailable and he would be facing a lot more than just Windu in minutes.
I believe they are equals as well.

Jedi Mom

http://i45.tinypic.com/xu8ut.jpg

Completely even. If there's any difference in their saber skills it's minimal.

Mizukage Yoda

Also in the duel above note that with a one handed block Dooku was able to block Mace's blow while blowing back the Magna Guards. He's fully capable of using his significant force powers to his advantage in the duel.

Vensai

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Also in the duel above note that with a one handed block Dooku was able to block Mace's blow while blowing back the Magna Guards. He's fully capable of using his significant force powers to his advantage in the duel.

Why was he blowing back the Magnaguards?

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
They are not, the ones with cloaks have more skill. It does not however counter the fact that against the great swordbeings of the Jedi, MagnaGuards go down hard. They've been dehyped considerably in canon.

Ahsoka's manhandling of MagnaGuards on Tatooine and Shaak Ti's exaggerated performance against another contingent does not preclude that the three that threatened Obi-Wan on Utapau were beyond his ability to defeat naturally or that the MagnaGuards that aided Dooku against Obi-Wan and Mace were of potentially similar caliber.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Would you disagree.

It would depend on which MagnaGuards, I suppose.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Red herring. MagnaGuards came from nowhere to ambush Mace. They were fully aware of them in the other scenario.

The bottom line is that you haven't the means to conclusively determine their level of skill. They could have been fodder; they might have been elite.

I'm not claiming one way or another, but I am reminding all parties involved that Dooku did not take Obi-Wan and Mace on alone.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Uhhh, that's because the Republic was winning the battle, their top commander was incapacitated, and Ventress was running rampant. It doesn't take a tactical genius to realize the situation was unassailable and he would be facing a lot more than just Windu in minutes.

That's nice. But Dooku was more than aware of the Republic's invasion and the Jedi's presence before confronting Mace and instructed his droids to leave the Jedi to him. He knew what he was getting into; the fact that he fled is an indicator that he was not prepared, under the circumstances, to take on someone of Mace's caliber.

Again, you can spout backhanded implications ad infinitum and pretend Dooku would have done the same thing had any Tom, Dick, or Jedi squared off with him, but it's simply not the case.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I believe they are equals as well.

Then you probably shouldn't try to imply otherwise?

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Vensai
Why was he blowing back the Magnaguards?

He wouldn't. Judging from the yellow impact wave, the MagnaGuards were blown back by Mace's leap and Dooku was steadying himself.

Vensai

Originally posted by The_Tempest
He wouldn't. Judging from the yellow impact wave, the MagnaGuards were blown back by Mace's leap and Dooku was steadying himself.

True. Not sure if that establishes Mace or Dooku above one another. They can lock blades with each other fairly evenly. Force might go either way though.

ROTJ Vader

Cant we all agree that these two are complete equals and a fight between them can go ether way 50/50.

Vensai

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Cant we all agree that these two are complete equals and a fight between them can go ether way 50/50.

They're not complete equals. Dooku has legitimate wins against Windu in sparring before he went Tyranus.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Vensai
Why was he blowing back the Magnaguards?

A sort of 'get out of the way droids' move is the way I interpreted it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Ahsoka's manhandling of MagnaGuards on Tatooine and Shaak Ti's exaggerated performance against another contingent does not preclude that the three that threatened Obi-Wan on Utapau were beyond his ability to defeat naturally or that the MagnaGuards that aided Dooku against Obi-Wan and Mace were of potentially similar caliber.

Yes it does. No source implies the gap between MagnaGuards is to the degree that 3 could defeat one swordbeing and yet dozens cannot defeat another. Shaak Ti's feat wasn't exaggerated.

Aside from your one quoted do you have proof that there is such a gap?

I've never seen evidence aside from that single quote that 3 MagnaGuards could defeat Kenobi. Elite or no, Kenobi fended off Savage and Maul, to suggest he'd have trouble with any 3 droids is absurd.

I am well aware.

Dooku is well aware of Mace's caliber. The point is that he had the chance to gore Mace the moment the MagnaGuards detained him. He elected to flee in the interest of time not the interest of he might die if he continued.

I'm implying jack shit.

From the start I've stated Mace and Dooku are equals, but if one has the SLIGHT advantage it's the Count. Reading comprehension ftw.

DARTH POWER

It was perfectly clear in the Clone Wars Republic Commandos fight that Dooku was fighting Mace and Obi-Wan alone by the end of the fight after the gameplay.

The magnaguards were all destroyed by that point and we at least see one FL blast from Dooku at the Jedi which is deflected before Dooku escapes.

Before the gameplay we actually see Dooku leap away and basically sit back watching Mace and Kenobi fight the magnaguards.

The gameplay itself seems to suggest that Dooku joined in late in the fight and that he was still fighting after all the magnaguards were wiped out.

DARTH POWER

And I agree with MY that Dooku had a clear opportunity in Obsession to gain an advantage over Mace when the magnaguards held him.

Another important factor in that fight was the combatants mentalities which is made clear from the dialogue and other sources. Mace was perfectly willing by this point to give his life to take down Dooku. Dooku didn't really want to risk his life. That has to be considered before saying "LOL Mace won because Dooku left."

But as far as the actual fight went they were shown to be on Par.

KuRuPT Thanosi

This is a non fight... Mace wins.. and wins convincingly. Some of you people just need to accept the facts.

Galan007

It was stated that Dooku has bested Mace in sparring-- although this most likely occurred when they were both Jedi/good.

However, the fact that Dooku turned to the dark side essentially means that Mace would be free to utilize 'true' Vaapad against him-- and since 'true' Vaapad was sufficient to "overpower" Palpatine(per Lucas himself), then Mace should certainly be able to overpower Dooku just the same(assuming he doesn't hold anything back, obviously.)

Jedi Mom

I'm not sure how Vapaad is the deciding factor unless the quotes from Dark Rendezvous are somewhere implied to be Mace without Vappad.

KuRuPT Thanosi

I'm unclear why people keep bringing up sparring. Sparring isn't real life fighting in a life or death situation. It's SPARRING for God's sake. Furthermore, people keep leaving out the fact tha Dooku was much older than Mace when they "sparred" and thus more powerful and experienced than Mace then. THAT Mace is a far far cry from the prime Mace we see in Sids. They are two totally different beasts. That is like saying GSP Lost to Hughes pre prime.. thus now Hughes is still better... WTF... No.. GSP has increased his skills and power just like Mace did.

Jedi Mom

Don't even talk considering you think that Mace can beat Dooku ''convincingly''.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is a non fight... Mace wins.. and wins convincingly. Some of you people just need to accept the facts.

Lol, we're not the ones who need to accept the facts. Every canon source refutes what you've been shoving down our throats except your interpretation of ONE DUEL.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I'm unclear why people keep bringing up sparring. Sparring isn't real life fighting in a life or death situation. It's SPARRING for God's sake. Furthermore, people keep leaving out the fact tha Dooku was much older than Mace when they "sparred" and thus more powerful and experienced than Mace then. THAT Mace is a far far cry from the prime Mace we see in Sids. They are two totally different beasts. That is like saying GSP Lost to Hughes pre prime.. thus now Hughes is still better... WTF... No.. GSP has increased his skills and power just like Mace did.

It does matter because Mace NEVER was able to best Dooku in sparring, where as Dooku was able to best him. Yoda too. If it wasn't significant it wouldn't have been sourced in several separate entity. And DR wouldn't have referenced that either.

If you got Mace Windu's erect BAMF engraved penis out of your mouth for five seconds you'd realize this.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I'm unclear why people keep bringing up sparring. Sparring isn't real life fighting in a life or death situation. It's SPARRING for God's sake. Furthermore, people keep leaving out the fact tha Dooku was much older than Mace when they "sparred" and thus more powerful and experienced than Mace then. THAT Mace is a far far cry from the prime Mace we see in Sids. They are two totally different beasts. That is like saying GSP Lost to Hughes pre prime.. thus now Hughes is still better... WTF... No.. GSP has increased his skills and power just like Mace did.

First of all Jedi Mom isn't referring to sparring. He's referring to a quote from Dark Rendezvous set probably Mid CW in the revamp, late CW originally.

Second sparring in this context obviously means something considering Yoda and Dooku were the only ones able to best Mace. If it meant nothing then surely there would be many people able to best him.

Third they have had ACTUAL fights in the clone wars. And Mace never seemed superior.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Lol, we're not the ones who need to accept the facts. Every canon source refutes what you've been shoving down our throats except your interpretation of ONE DUEL.

It does matter because Mace NEVER was able to best Dooku in sparring, where as Dooku was able to best him. Yoda too. If it wasn't significant it wouldn't have been sourced in several separate entity. And DR wouldn't have referenced that either.

If you got Mace Windu's erect BAMF engraved penis out of your mouth for five seconds you'd realize this.

Tell me then.. WHEN did they spar?

Next, are you claiming that the Mace Dooku sparred with was just as powerful and experienced as the one Sids fought? Is that your claim? We all know he's not the same and a different beast.. JUST LIKE.. we all know Dooku was older and more experienced than Mace back then. Thus, who cares abotu THAT Mace back in the day.. this is a PRIME PEAK MACE in this fight. Do you get the difference? To say nothing of the fact that it was SPARRING. You do know the difference between sparring and a real life and death fight right? Do you think they are the same?

ALl of the above just destroys the argument for Dooku being superior to ROTS Mace... but that isn't even needed. All we need to do is say Mace will go into Vaapad mode... Dooku has darkside energies in him.. Mace will exploit that and beat Dooku.. just like he did Dooku's superior Sids. THAT is all we need to show how easy it would be. The first paragraph just desroys the flimsy proof you have.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
First of all Jedi Mom isn't referring to sparring. He's referring to a quote from Dark Rendezvous set probably Mid CW in the revamp, late CW originally.

Second sparring in this context obviously means something considering Yoda and Dooku were the only ones able to best Mace. If it meant nothing then surely there would be many people able to best him.

Third they have had ACTUAL fights in the clone wars. And Mace never seemed superior. Huh? Which quote from DR.. talks about Dooku being Mace's superior.. Please post this quote. Second, the sparring sessions brought up countless times IS when Mace wasn't as powerful period. That is not applicable to THIS mace yet it has been continually brought up.

Lastly, sparring means about **** all when it comes to a real life fight. Sure, it can be a decent barometer to somebody's skills and abilities, but it's not a real life fight. To be silly DP.. Fisto isn't going to beat Mace just beause it's sparring.. that is like saying a HS footballl team will beat Greenbay in a practice game. No, just because it's practice doesn't mean you can totally jump gaps of superiority. Yet, if you put the Raiders in there.. a real pro team.. they could beat GB.. but as we know... that is JUST PRACTICE. huge difference between practice and real games and that is undisputable.

axel_jovan

Jinsoku Takai

Anyone who believes sparring is a decent indicator of real world combat is either a complete idiot, or has absolutely ZERO ***king knowledge of combat sports. And one must consider the timeline at which this "sparring" contest likely took place. Once again... SPARRING DOES NOT EQUAL REAL WORLD COMBAT! It's usually not even close.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Tell me then.. WHEN did they spar?

Next, are you claiming that the Mace Dooku sparred with was just as powerful and experienced as the one Sids fought? Is that your claim? We all know he's not the same and a different beast.. JUST LIKE.. we all know Dooku was older and more experienced than Mace back then. Thus, who cares abotu THAT Mace back in the day.. this is a PRIME PEAK MACE in this fight. Do you get the difference? To say nothing of the fact that it was SPARRING. You do know the difference between sparring and a real life and death fight right? Do you think they are the same?

ALl of the above just destroys the argument for Dooku being superior to ROTS Mace... but that isn't even needed. All we need to do is say Mace will go into Vaapad mode... Dooku has darkside energies in him.. Mace will exploit that and beat Dooku.. just like he did Dooku's superior Sids. THAT is all we need to show how easy it would be. The first paragraph just desroys the flimsy proof you have.

We all know Mace got a powerboost since Dooku and him last sparred. Here's what you don't get, Dooku got an even larger powerup.
AND
He became a master of Dun Moch, something that was surprisingly absent from Sidious' duel with Mace. Dun Moch is likely one of the greatest counters to Vaapad.

Jedi Mom

''In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.''

Note it says battle, not sparring.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Huh? Which quote from DR.. talks about Dooku being Mace's superior.. Please post this quote. Second, the sparring sessions brought up countless times IS when Mace wasn't as powerful period. That is not applicable to THIS mace yet it has been continually brought up.

It doesn't say superior but it clearly suggests parity. With an edge to Dooku if anyone given the wording.

"Of all the other Jedi perhaps only Mace Windu would be his equal on neutral ground.."

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Second, the sparring sessions brought up countless times IS when Mace wasn't as powerful period. That is not applicable to THIS mace yet it has been continually brought up.

There's little evidence he substantially grew in power since he had already developed Vapaad and was already head of the Council. Funny thing is it's actually Dooku who been outright stated to be more powerful than before since becoming a Sith Lord.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Lastly, sparring means about **** all when it comes to a real life fight. Sure, it can be a decent barometer to somebody's skills and abilities, but it's not a real life fight. To be silly DP.. Fisto isn't going to beat Mace just beause it's sparring.. that is like saying a HS footballl team will beat Greenbay in a practice game. No, just because it's practice doesn't mean you can totally jump gaps of superiority. Yet, if you put the Raiders in there.. a real pro team.. they could beat GB.. but as we know... that is JUST PRACTICE. huge difference between practice and real games and that is undisputable.

But it does give some indication of combat prowess. Like you said yourself Fisto won't be beating Mace in a sparring session. In fact no one ever has except Yoda and Dooku.

If that was the only evidence then your point would be completely valid. But the fact is there's a few evidences that suggest either parity between the 2 or actually Dooku's superiority.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Battle.... are you now claiming Mace and Yoda battled to the death... You don't say... Please tell me you're joking? If not, tell me when they battled to the death.. or are you going to retract your battle statement that it was a real fight?

Jedi Mom

I must be blind as I don't see the ''to death'' anywhere in that quote.

axel_jovan

IMHO it goes:
Sidious>Dooku>=Mace

BUT with Mace "submerged in Vaapad" it goes:
Sidious>=Mace>=Dooku

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Battle.... are you now claiming Mace and Yoda battled to the death... You don't say... Please tell me you're joking? If not, tell me when they battled to the death.. or are you going to retract your battle statement that it was a real fight?

Jesus Christ man, of all the Star Wars duels how many of them actually ended in a fatality due to lightsaber combat.

Qui-Gon...and a few fights with Grievous. Most of the ones we see either end in one side retreating or one side being disarmed.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
I must be blind as I don't see the ''to death'' anywhere in that quote.

Then define battle for me then.. You're claiming that it wasn't sparring.. and use the term "battle" TRYING to suggest that it was more than sparring.. Okay.. then more than sparring would be a REAL fight... So then, WHEN and WHY would Yoda and Mace being fighting a REAL fight were somebody could get killed or die? They wouldn't!! Thus, it must've been a sparring session and nothing more. I'm not sure how such plain deductions in logic isn't possible here.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Jesus Christ man, of all the Star Wars duels how many of them actually ended in a fatality due to lightsaber combat.

Qui-Gon...and a few fights with Grievous. Most of the ones we see either end in one side retreating or one side being disarmed. He was trying to imply they were more than sparring sessions... by hanging on to the term "battle" Yet we all know Yoda and Mace have never, nor would they ever fight a real fight where somebody could get hurt or killed. That has never occured. If it has.. please post when and the circumstances of it.

Galan007

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
I'm not sure how Vapaad is the deciding factor unless the quotes from Dark Rendezvous are somewhere implied to be Mace without Vappad. The only quote I can recall from Dark Rendezvous that would even be pertinent to this discussion was during Dooku's battle with Yoda: "Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been equal on neutral ground."

...But that quote was before RotS-- before we saw Mace fully immerse himself in Vaapad like never before. If he fully embraced Vaapad in that manner against Dooku, he would lose, imo.

KuRuPT Thanosi

not just lose... but lose BADLY...

Jedi Mom

"Mm. Thinking of students, I am. Best then I should go to battle with him in whom the Force is strongest, hmm? With young Skywalker; think you?"

"He's not polished," Ilena said.

"And too impulsive," Mace added.

"Hm." Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!"

His eyes found the other Jedi, one by one: and one by one, they looked away.

"Our great student!" Yoda's ears flexed, then drooped. "Our great failure."

KuRuPT Thanosi

Still waiting for when Mace "battled" Yoda.. when and where did this happen and under what circumstances were they trying to hurt one another. Or concede it wasn't a true battle and most likely sparring.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Still waiting for when Mace "battled" Yoda.. when and where did this happen and under what circumstances were they trying to hurt one another. Or concede it wasn't a true battle and most likely sparring.

Will you cut that out. Jedi always fight to disarm. They could have had a heated battle with the intent to defeat each other not kill each other.

Also, up until the latter end of the PT, duelist like Yoda and Mace didn't really have much "battle" experience until the Clone Wars, and yet the Jedi Order during this era is considered the strongest, and produced the greatest blademasters the Old Jedi Order would ever see.

Galan007

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
"Mm. Thinking of students, I am. Best then I should go to battle with him in whom the Force is strongest, hmm? With young Skywalker; think you?"

"He's not polished," Ilena said.

"And too impulsive," Mace added.

"Hm." Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!"

His eyes found the other Jedi, one by one: and one by one, they looked away.

"Our great student!" Yoda's ears flexed, then drooped. "Our great failure." He may have been the greatest Jedi student, but who cares?

Here were are essentially talking about Mace/Vaapad vs. a dark side user-- and if Mace was able to use Vaapad to out-duel and "overpower" an opponent superior to Dooku, then Dooku himself shouldn't be a huge problem.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Galan007
He may have been the greatest Jedi student, but who cares?

Here were are essentially talking about Mace/Vaapad vs. a dark side user-- and if Mace was able to use Vaapad to out-duel and "overpower" an opponent superior to Dooku, then Dooku himself shouldn't be a huge problem.

No limits fallacy. Unlike Sidious, Dooku is well aware of Mace's Vaapad. And Mace powered up by Sidious' force powers is going to be way different than Mace powered up by Dooku's.

Here's the difference, the difference between Dooku's swordsmanship and his force powers is way less than the gap between Sidious's swordsmanship and force powers.

The amp Mace gets will be less, but he will be fighting an opponent nearly as deadly with a blade.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Will you cut that out. Jedi always fight to disarm. They could have had a heated battle with the intent to defeat each other not kill each other.

Also, up until the latter end of the PT, duelist like Yoda and Mace didn't really have much "battle" experience until the Clone Wars, and yet the Jedi Order during this era is considered the strongest, and produced the greatest blademasters the Old Jedi Order would ever see.

Incorrect... If such a disarming battle took place it WOULDN'T BE WITH LIGHTSABERS.. As we know.. a MERE touching of a lightsaber would cause death or dismembering. Most likely any such "heated" battle would be with something other than a saber. Point is, there is ZERO evidence or reason to believe Yoda and Mace got into a heated battle with sabers. That makes ZERO logical sense. Many time disarming in battles means SOMEBODY LOSSES THEIR LIMBS... i.e. Anakin.. Luke.. Vader.. ETC ETC... So.. now that we've established it wasn't a true battle with sabers nor a life or death situation.. what are we left with.. A SPARRING MATCH... Big WHOOP

Jedi Mom

No. The quote ''perhaps only Mace Windu is his equal on neutral ground'' is mid-CW; at this point Mace has already developed. Same goes for Dooku surviving the fight against Mace and Kenobi TCW: Republic Heroes, for Mace and Dooku stalemating in Obsession. Mace used Vaapad in all these scenarios.

Jedi Mom

@ Korupt Thanosi -They could have used training sabers, like when Sidious sparred with Maul in Shadow Hunter/Darth Plagueis.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Incorrect... If such a disarming battle took place it WOULDN'T BE WITH LIGHTSABERS.. As we know.. a MERE touching of a lightsaber would cause death or dismembering. Most likely any such "heated" battle would be with something other than a saber. Point is, there is ZERO evidence or reason to believe Yoda and Mace got into a heated battle with sabers. That makes ZERO logical sense. Many time disarming in battles means SOMEBODY LOSSES THEIR LIMBS... i.e. Anakin.. Luke.. Vader.. ETC ETC... So.. now that we've established it wasn't a true battle with sabers nor a life or death situation.. what are we left with.. A SPARRING MATCH... Big WHOOP

Still don't see how that's supposed to benefit Dooku more than Mace. With non-lethal training Sabers(for example) they're both welcome to go all out.

And still who said it was sparring? Could be a proper sword contest.

You wouldn't call an actual professional boxing match just sparring would you?

Galan007

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No limits fallacy. Unlike Sidious, Dooku is well aware of Mace's Vaapad. Palpatine has been aware of Vaapad since Shatterpoint, at the very least:
"Vaapad?" Palpatine repeated, eventually. Perhaps he'd grown tired of waiting for someone to explain. "Isn't that some kind of animal?"

"A predator of Sarapin," Yoda supplied gravely. "Also the nickname it is, given by students, for the seventh form of lightsaber combat."

"Hmp. I've always heard there are only six."

"Six there were, for generations of Jedi. The seventh... is not well known. A powerful form it is. Deadliest of all... But dangerous it is-to its master, as well as its opponent. Few have studied. One student alone to mastery has risen."

"But if she's the only master-and this style is so deadly-what makes you think-"

"She's not the only master, sir." Mace lifted his head to meet Palpatine's frown. "She is my only student to become a master."

"Your only student..." Palpatine echoed.

"I didn't study Vaapad." Mace let his hands fall to his sides. "I created it."

Palpatine's brows drew together thoughtfully. "Yes, I seem to recall now: a reference in your report on the treason of Master Sora Bulq. Didn't you train him as well? Didn't he also claim to be a master of this Vaapad of yours?"

"Sora Bulq was not my student." "And he did not master Vaapad," Mace said grimly. "Vaapad mastered him."

"Ah-ah, I see..."

---

So not only did Palpatine know of Vaapad, but he knew that Mace both created, and was the master of, said form.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Here's the difference, the difference between Dooku's swordsmanship and his force powers is way less than the gap between Sidious's swordsmanship and force powers. The amp Mace gets will be less, but he will be fighting an opponent nearly as deadly with a blade. Vaapad doesn't channel 'force powers', it channels an opponents inner darkness/the dark side-- and Dooku has that en gros. Yoda's comment during AotC was certainly indicative of such: "Powerful you have become my old Padawan... The dark side I sense in you."

I can also post some quotes from DR if need be. /shrug

KuRuPT Thanosi

It's NOT A REAL SABER... Thus it's NOT the SAME THING. What is so hard to understand about this. A life and death battle with REAL sabers looks A LOT different and feels different. Not sure what isn't computing here. Stop trying to say Dooku is superior to Windu based on sparring matched before Mace was in his prime like in ROTS.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Still don't see how that's supposed to benefit Dooku more than Mace. With non-lethal training Sabers(for example) they're both welcome to go all out.

And still who said it was sparring? Could be a proper sword contest.

You wouldn't call an actual professional boxing match just sparring would you?

Honestly, DP do you believe Mace and Yoda would have a TRUE battle? I mean honestly? Is that how desperate we are getting here. They never would engage in such a battle. Further, when you're pissed and going all out with a saber is much different than trying hard with a toy sword. Mace.. not pissed wouldn't be able to rely on the anger and DS inside him.. as he has no ill will towards yoda. I mean common this is 1=1 =2 . Him sparring with Dooku and Yoda /= real life sword fight to the death against somebody you're pissed at. HUGE HUGE difference.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Galan007

Vaapad doesn't channel 'force powers', it channels an opponents inner darkness/the dark side-- and Dooku has that en gros. Yoda's comment during AotC was certainly indicative of such: "Powerful you have become my old Padawan... The dark side I sense in you."

I can also post some quotes from DR if need be. /shrug

It's unlikley to be on the level of Palpatine's though.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Honestly, DP do you believe Mace and Yoda would have a TRUE battle? I mean honestly? Is that how desperate we are getting here.

It's just one event out of several that would suggest a level of competitiveness/parity between Dooku and Mace.

No one is suggesting Dooku > Mace because of that sparring match. End of the day if Mace is so much greater than Dooku like you suggest than it's unlikely Dooku would beat him even in a sparring contest.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Odd Palps wouldn't have tried to figure out this from himself and use his own inner anger better.

Galan007

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's unlikley to be on the level of Palpatine's though. That doesn't matter one bit.

Dooku is a dark sider, thus Vaapad's superconducting loop would be in full effect. Simple.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It's NOT A REAL SABER... Thus it's NOT the SAME THING. What is so hard to understand about this. A life and death battle with REAL sabers looks A LOT different and feels different. Not sure what isn't computing here. Stop trying to say Dooku is superior to Windu based on sparring matched before Mace was in his prime like in ROTS.

Prove that they weren't using real ligthsabers.

They aren't Padawans, I have no reason to believe they wouldn't use the same thing.

Jedi Mom

Also interesting to note it's only Dooku/Yoda who've bested Mace. Not Fisto, Mundi etc.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Galan007
Palpatine has been aware of Vaapad since Shatterpoint, at the very least:
"Vaapad?" Palpatine repeated, eventually. Perhaps he'd grown tired of waiting for someone to explain. "Isn't that some kind of animal?"

"A predator of Sarapin," Yoda supplied gravely. "Also the nickname it is, given by students, for the seventh form of lightsaber combat."

"Hmp. I've always heard there are only six."

"Six there were, for generations of Jedi. The seventh... is not well known. A powerful form it is. Deadliest of all... But dangerous it is-to its master, as well as its opponent. Few have studied. One student alone to mastery has risen."

"But if she's the only master-and this style is so deadly-what makes you think-"

"She's not the only master, sir." Mace lifted his head to meet Palpatine's frown. "She is my only student to become a master."

"Your only student..." Palpatine echoed.

"I didn't study Vaapad." Mace let his hands fall to his sides. "I created it."

Palpatine's brows drew together thoughtfully. "Yes, I seem to recall now: a reference in your report on the treason of Master Sora Bulq. Didn't you train him as well? Didn't he also claim to be a master of this Vaapad of yours?"

"Sora Bulq was not my student." "And he did not master Vaapad," Mace said grimly. "Vaapad mastered him."

"Ah-ah, I see..."

---

So not only did Palpatine know of Vaapad, but he knew that Mace both created, and was the master of, said form.

Vaapad doesn't channel 'force powers', it channels an opponents inner darkness/the dark side-- and Dooku has that en gros. Yoda's comment during AotC was certainly indicative of such: "Powerful you have become my old Padawan... The dark side I sense in you."

I can also post some quotes from DR if need be. /shrug

Knowing of it isn't the same thing as seeing it applied first hand in battle.

Also inner darkness or not. Palpatine has WAY more of it than Dooku does. That's my point, Palpatine is the embodiment of the Dark Side, he has been called the Dark Side itself considering his death alone could tip the force back into balance. Him and Plagueis tipped the Dark Side into galactic dominance. With Plagueis dead he became it's sole embodiment.

So of course the amp Mace got from that will be far greater than the one he gets from Dooku. However Dooku is a swordsman almost as proficient as the Dark Lord.

The idea that if Mace gets the same boost he gets from Sidious he'll win is correct, but there's no way in hell he'll get that same boost.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Prove that they weren't using real ligthsabers.

They aren't Padawans, I have no reason to believe they wouldn't use the same thing.

PROVE THEY DO.. THIS IS YOUR ARGUMENT TO PROVE NOT MINE. Conventional logic would dictate they don't use real lightsabers in sparring. That is common sense. However, even if they WERE real.. It's NOT a LIFE AND DEATH FIGHT with both giving their all. That alone discounts it as being anything other than a little cookie for Dooku in his prime against Mace before his prime. Plus, as stated above.. it wasn't Mace's prime... You admit Mace grew in power... So it's irrelevant to current mace. So as you can see regardlesss of whether it was a real saber or not,, it's still discounted. Now PROVE it was a REAL SABER.

Jedi Mom

It supports his argument if it wasn't a real saber as they could be more able to hit each other with wood sticks or something like that.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Knowing of it isn't the same thing as seeing it applied first hand in battle.

Also inner darkness or not. Palpatine has WAY more of it than Dooku does. That's my point, Palpatine is the embodiment of the Dark Side, he has been called the Dark Side itself considering his death alone could tip the force back into balance. Him and Plagueis tipped the Dark Side into galactic dominance. With Plagueis dead he became it's sole embodiment.

So of course the amp Mace got from that will be far greater than the one he gets from Dooku. However Dooku is a swordsman almost as proficient as the Dark Lord.

The idea that if Mace gets the same boost he gets from Sidious he'll win is correct, but there's no way in hell he'll get that same boost.

Why do you think it will matter if it's the same boost.. that is't the point he was making and we have been making. Vaapad will allow him to match and or exceed Dooku just like it did with Sids. So once vaapad allow Mace to match (which he already was) or exceed that is all that is required plus a hint of shatterpoint and Dooku dies. What isn't computing here?

Jedi Mom

^That several sources have Dooku=Windu

Canon sources>your interpretation of Sidious vs Mace

KuRuPT Thanosi

Okay so let's say Dooku = Windu.. I don't have much of an issue with that.. NEVER have. I think they are very close in pure sabers combat. My problem is people use sparring matches to make it like Dooku is Mace's superior. That is totally wrong and not close to accurate. Plus, Mace back then wasn't in his prime.. he grew in power.. while Dooku WAS in his prime.. which further invalidates the sparring matches. Anyways, let's say they are equal.. cool.. then the difference will be vaapad and shatterpoint.. What is tough about this?

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
PROVE THEY DO.. THIS IS YOUR ARGUMENT TO PROVE NOT MINE. Conventional logic would dictate they don't use real lightsabers in sparring. That is common sense. However, even if they WERE real.. It's NOT a LIFE AND DEATH FIGHT with both giving their all. That alone discounts it as being anything other than a little cookie for Dooku in his prime against Mace past his prime. Plus, as stated above.. it wasn't Mace's prime... You admit Mace grew in power... So it's irrelevant to current mace. So as you can see regardlesss of whether it was a real saber or not,, it's still discounted. Now PROVE it was a REAL SABER.

No that's pretty much bullshit you made up.
Even as far back in canon as KOTOR I Juhani thought she killed her master because they were sparring WITH REAL SABERS. Every canon source has stated training sabers were only utilized by Padawans and Initiates. So no the burden of proof falls on you as to why two Jedi Masters would use training sabers. The lightsaber and the being are one, making Jedi Masters use a training saber would detract from the performance. So unless you mean to tell me that all Jedi have two sabers, one training and one real, then you are full of it.

Once again, both Mace and Dooku grew in power since Dooku left the order. Let me say that again. Mace Windu grew in power because of an increased mastery of Vaapad, Dooku gained master of the Dark Side...wait...actually does anyone have a source for Mace growing in power aside from nominally over the course of the war?

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Okay so let's say Dooku = Windu.. I don't have much of an issue with that.. NEVER have. I think they are very close in pure sabers combat. My problem is people use sparring matches to make it like Dooku is Mace's superior. That is totally wrong and not close to accurate. Plus, Mace back then wasn't in his prime.. he grew in power.. while Dooku WAS in his prime.. which further invalidates the sparring matches. Anyways, let's say they are equal.. cool.. then the difference will be vaapad and shatterpoint.. What is tough about this?

The point is that Dooku was never once defeated by Mace...Mace was. Also source for Mace growing in power pl0x. Because I've scanned the ROTS novel and found nothing suggesting it. I may have missed something though.

Jedi Mom

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Okay so let's say Dooku = Windu.. I don't have much of an issue with that.. NEVER have. I think they are very close in pure sabers combat. My problem is people use sparring matches to make it like Dooku is Mace's superior. That is totally wrong and not close to accurate. Plus, Mace back then wasn't in his prime.. he grew in power.. while Dooku WAS in his prime.. which further invalidates the sparring matches. Anyways, let's say they are equal.. cool.. then the difference will be vaapad and shatterpoint.. What is tough about this?
That every time they fought they were equal. And obviously Mace used Shatterpoint/Vaapad in those fights.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No that's pretty much bullshit you made up.
Even as far back in canon as KOTOR I Juhani thought she killed her master because they were sparring WITH REAL SABERS. Every canon source has stated training sabers were only utilized by Padawans and Initiates. So no the burden of proof falls on you as to why two Jedi Masters would use training sabers. The lightsaber and the being are one, making Jedi Masters use a training saber would detract from the performance. So unless you mean to tell me that all Jedi have two sabers, one training and one real, then you are full of it.

Once again, both Mace and Dooku grew in power since Dooku left the order. Let me say that again. Mace Windu grew in power because of an increased mastery of Vaapad, Dooku gained master of the Dark Side...wait...actually does anyone have a source for Mace growing in power aside from nominally over the course of the war?

WRong again.. it's YOU that has to prove they were fighting with real sabers NOT ME. it's not my argument to prove. Further it doesn't matter if it was a real one or not...

1. You admit dooku was older than Mace correct? Thus Dooku would be more experienced and thus more powerful correct? Thus the sparring is invalid to current Mace.
2. Sparring isn't a LIFE OR DEATH SITUATION. WTF is so hard to understand about this? Have you ever played a sport in your entire life? I mean honestly have you? If you did, you would understand the different between Practice and sparring. They are WORLD's appart.
3. not only are they worlds apart in how one might try or fight.. and not only is practice not a real life fight.. but the distance further grows between sparring and a fight.. when it's a life or death fight. That makes people fight a tad bit better and try that much harder. Are you really this dense that you can't comprehend that one might try harder in a fight for their life then they would sparring with a friend?
4. There is ZERO evidence that Mace had mastered Vaapad and Shatterpoint to the levels he had by ROTS.. If you have proof POST THE PROOF HE HAD. Further, he couldn't even use vaapad to its fullest potentional because he wouldn't be feeding on anybody DS inside of him or his opponents. More invalidating of a sparring match.

Lastly, please give me the time period in which they sparred.. I want a date.. Because from what I'm gathering this took place before the PM... Which would mean Mace would've grew in power by the time of ROTS.. Not only grown in power but mastered Vaapad and shatterpoint that much better.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
That every time they fought they were equal. And obviously Mace used Shatterpoint/Vaapad in those fights.

really.. you have proof he mastered Vaapad and S.P. to the levels he had by ROTS.. I ask Yoda the same thing.. POST THIS PROOF. Further, he wouldn't be able to use vaapad the same way he would in a fight against a DS Dooku (you know the one in this fight) So no, not only is there no proof he had mastered them as well at that point, they also wouldn't be utilized as well. Try again.

Jedi Mom

Mace had mastered Vaapad/Shatterpoint as of ''Shatterpoint'' (the novel) Every encounter between Mace/Dooku (which have them equal) are after ''Shatterpoint.''

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The point is that Dooku was never once defeated by Mace...Mace was. Also source for Mace growing in power pl0x. Because I've scanned the ROTS novel and found nothing suggesting it. I may have missed something though.

In his fight with Palpatine it talks about how he once feared the dark but he got over that after the events of shatterpoint. It implies he's a more competent combatant now.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Mace had mastered Vaapad/Shatterpoint as of ''Shatterpoint'' (the novel) Every encounter between Mace/Dooku (which have them equal) are after ''Shatterpoint.''

Really? You don't say? Please list the dates of these sparring matches please then... Which again, it doesn't matter since it was sparring and you can't use vaapad the same in sparring as you would in a real fight.. but none the less.. I want the dates please.

Jedi Mom

Sparring?

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1ieRQ-4BB4

2. http://i48.tinypic.com/wlc9f.png

http://i46.tinypic.com/167qkk3.png

KuRuPT Thanosi

So you posted a video game (canon levels below the movie) and a fight where Dooku decided he needed help to escape? Odd proof you have

DARTH POWER

Dooku's awesome in that Republic Heroes.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So you posted a video game (canon levels below the movie)

Well they don't fight in the movies. And the game's canon. Well at least the cut scenes. The gameplay just gives us an indication of what happened in between the scenes.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
and a fight where Dooku decided he needed help to escape?

There were several Jedi and an army of clones hunting him. If he carried stalemating Mace he'd have been captured for sure.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Ummm okay.. I never said it wasn't canon.. just levels of canon BELOW the movie, script or novels.

Jedi Mom

doesn't matter when it contradict nothing of higher canon-level

Vensai

For one thing, Dooku had less trouble dealing with Bulq (and Tholme) than Windu did.

Jedi Mom

Good point.

�hroud

As the Poll above indicates, Windu indeed wins, here.

ROTS Dooku would barely be able to beat AotC Windu.

But ROTS Windu is significantly more skilled and powerful than ROTS Dooku - and would mutilate him after a moderately difficult fight.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
WRong again.. it's YOU that has to prove they were fighting with real sabers NOT ME. it's not my argument to prove. Further it doesn't matter if it was a real one or not...

No you have to prove they fought with training sabers which are designated for Padawans.

What sort of bullshit red herring is this? What does my participation in sports have to do with lightsaber battles with individuals with ftl precog, hypersonic speed and reactions. Sparring for Jedi IS NOT the same as sparring between athletes.

Doesn't say sparring, it says

I don't have to. He invented Vaapad decades prior. Why would his mastery suddenly jump on his 60th birthday?

Post a quote that says Mace's mastery increased in between AOTC and ROTS.
It used to be hypothesized he invented Vaapad in between TPM and AOTC and mastered it during the Clone Wars.

This has been knocked down given that PADAWAN Kenobi wanted to study Vaapad. So Vaapad was already a know and well recognized form well by the time of TPM. Giving Mace over 10 year to master it...

Jedi Mom

Oh boy.

Vensai

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Good point.

Not to mention Bulq was able to force push Windu once. And Dookus force powers are above Bulqs considerably. Windu has never TKed Dooku.

Jedi Mom

Has Dooku killed with his lightning?

Vensai

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Has Dooku killed with his lightning?

He's Knocked out people with it. Doesn't really matter. He can stab them or something after they're down.

ROTJ Vader

Cant we all agree Dooku & Windu are complete equals in all categories and a fight between them can go ether way 50/50?.

KuRuPT Thanosi

ummm no.... maybe I could buy into that theory for Lighside dooku.. DS dooku.. nah

Vensai

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Cant we all agree Dooku & Windu are complete equals in all categories and a fight between them can go ether way 50/50?.

Personally, I would say Dooku 6/10 Windu 4/10. Dooku has better consistent showings than Windu against duos like Ventress/Savage and Bulq/Tholme.

�hroud

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Cant we all agree Dooku & Windu are complete equals in all categories and a fight between them can go ether way 50/50?.

No.

Perhaps if Dooku hadn't known he'd lose against Sidious, then it might be different.

But Dooku would lose to the man that Windu defeated.

ROTS Dooku would barely be able to defeat AotC Windu.

And ROTS Windu would kill ROTS Dooku, with moderate difficulty. smokin'

�hroud

Originally posted by Vensai
ABC Logic has rarely shown to work.

It's 123's, not ABC's. smokin'

And it works here.

Dooku knew Sidious was too much for him, in any arena. He knew it.

But Mace was capable of defeating him.

So while ROTS Dooku could defeat AotC Mace with high-difficulty - ROTS Mace would defeat ROTS Dooku with mid-difficulty.

Galan007

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Also inner darkness or not. Palpatine has WAY more of it than Dooku does. This is entirely inconsequential. With Vaapad, Mace was able to form a superconducting loop between he and Palpatine. That is what matters:

"Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow."

"Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source."

---

Mace uses Vaapad to draw in an opponent's darkness and reflect it back at them in an infinite loop. That same principle would apply to Dooku just as it applied to Palpatine. Comprende?

Mizukage Yoda

Dooku vs. Windu is
51:49
Dooku's favor imo
It's that damned close.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes it does.

No, it doesn't?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No source implies the gap between MagnaGuards is to the degree that 3 could defeat one swordbeing and yet dozens cannot defeat another.

Except the one I provided you that declares three of them were beyond Obi-Wan's ability to handle alone.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Shaak Ti's feat wasn't exaggerated.

It was depicted in the same microseries that portrays Mace as capable of manhandling countless droids... whereas Dooku can't take 30 pirates in the new series. STFU and quit moving the goalpost to satisfy your Dooku wankery.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Aside from your one quoted do you have proof that there is such a gap?

Nope. Thank God I don't need one.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I've never seen evidence aside from that single quote that 3 MagnaGuards could defeat Kenobi.

Me either.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Elite or no, Kenobi fended off Savage and Maul, to suggest he'd have trouble with any 3 droids is absurd.

Yeah, so is thinking that he'd have trouble with Grievous alone, but lo and behold, he was running from Grievous later on in season 5.

Of course, maybe it's fending off Maul and Savage that's the absurd, inconsistent feat... maybe. mmm

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Dooku is well aware of Mace's caliber. The point is that he had the chance to gore Mace the moment the MagnaGuards detained him. He elected to flee in the interest of time not the interest of he might die if he continued.

Yeah, because there's no chance Dooku would die taking on Mace Windu in a fight. laughing out loud

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I'm implying jack shit.

Cool story, bro.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
From the start I've stated Mace and Dooku are equals, but if one has the SLIGHT advantage it's the Count. Reading comprehension ftw.

Then you should probably have just ended it there.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It does matter because Mace NEVER was able to best Dooku in sparring, where as Dooku was able to best him

I challenge you to find me a single source that says Mace never bested Dooku in sparring.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
If you got Mace Windu's erect BAMF engraved penis out of your mouth for five seconds you'd realize this.

Given that Dooku's liverspotted dick has all but dissolved betwixt your lips, you probably shouldn't be giving anyone advice in this regard.

LOL THEYRE EQUALS BUT DOOKU RUNNIN FROM MACE DONT MEAN SHIT DOOKU BEAT MACE AT SOME POINT OR ANOTHER IN THE PAST AND THERES NO WAI MACE HAS IMPROVED SINCE THEN BECAUSE ONLY GRIEVOUS AND OBI-WAN CAN IMPROVE BECAUSE IT SUITS MY ARGUMENTS MAGNAGUARDS ARE PUSSIES UNTIL THEY HOLD MACE THEN THEYRE AWESOME DOOKU WOULD CURBSTOMP HIM LOLOLOLOL

^ Your argument in a nutshell.

The single logical interpretation is that the Count and Mace are without question peers in combat. There would be no comfortable victory, no curbstomp, no decisive advantage on either side. Mace is presented in less source material, but when he does, he displays prowess on par with Dooku (even in the Force). At one point in their past, Dooku defeated Mace in combat, which isn't surprising given a ~30 year age disparity between them. We know Dooku is at least proficient in multiple forms as the Temple's battlemaster and his claims in Labyrinth of Evil; we know, per Fight Saber, Mace is a master of multiple forms in order to wield Juyo/Vaapad. Mace appears to have an advantage in raw physicality, but this may very well not be the case as Dooku is shown to be quite the bruiser and unarmed combatant ("Dooku Captured" wink

. Dooku has a clear advantage in combat experience and refinement, if not broad technical technique. And though he's likely to tire before Mace, he's more than capable of replenishing himself at the drop of a dime.

It's pretty clear each has his advantage/s. In terms of natural ability, I would probably give Dooku the nod in an exceptionally grueling battle. But once Vaapad enters the equation? The balance shifts to Mace.

Galan007

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Given that Dooku's liverspotted dick has all but dissolved betwixt your lips, you probably shouldn't be giving anyone advice in this regard. No joke, this is one of the funniest posts I've ever read. I literally lol'd. thumb up

ROTJ Vader

lol look at the ****ed up results of the poll.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No you have to prove they fought with training sabers which are designated for Padawans.

What sort of bullshit red herring is this? What does my participation in sports have to do with lightsaber battles with individuals with ftl precog, hypersonic speed and reactions. Sparring for Jedi IS NOT the same as sparring between athletes.

Doesn't say sparring, it says

I don't have to. He invented Vaapad decades prior. Why would his mastery suddenly jump on his 60th birthday?

Post a quote that says Mace's mastery increased in between AOTC and ROTS.
It used to be hypothesized he invented Vaapad in between TPM and AOTC and mastered it during the Clone Wars.

This has been knocked down given that PADAWAN Kenobi wanted to study Vaapad. So Vaapad was already a know and well recognized form well by the time of TPM. Giving Mace over 10 year to master it...

It's YOUR claim that they sparred with real sabers.. PROVE IT. I don't need to prove a negative i.e. that they didn't. Further, you're claiming they weren't sparring but "battling" So you're trying to increase the credibility of the fight and make it something MORE than sparring. Even the quote you use... about Yoda nad Dooku being the only ones able to overcome him in battle proves very little. No you expect me to believe Yoda and Mace fought a fight with REAL SABERS and went ALL OUT to beat one another. That is the most idiotic thing I've heard of. IF they went all out it would be WITHOUT lightsabers. Thatis just plain common sense. Do you know the accident that could happen IF they were going all out and using sabers.. People could lose limbs. Stop being stupid and trying to pawn these sparring matches off as real life fight.. THEY AREN'T.

Furthermore, even the quote you posted doesn't mean Mace hasn't beaten Dooku MORE than he was beaten. It simple sayis they overcame him... Nothing about HE NEVER BEAT THEM. I could say Matt Hughes was one of the very few to beat GSP (fact) yet that don't tell the whole story of GSP beating hughes twice after that. Get it? Even the quote you used isn't very convincing at all.

It's clear you have never participated in any sport at a high level if you can't distinguish a sparring match between friends testing ones abilities and a life and death fight between enemies. Just the fact, that you see you difference between the two tells me you haven't.

Because mastery jumps like this ALL the time. Jedi and Sith continue to grow more powerful as they are peaking... then, like all other athletes start to go down. For example, Kenobi was using Ataru all the way up to Clone wars.. He beat Maul using Ataru and lost to Dooku using it. By the time of ROTS.. he had mastered Soresu... Yes things can jump quite a bit ina short time period. This has been shown over and over again. Decades or even a year or two would and have made big differences.

Somebody knowing about a form doesn't mean said from was totally mastered by its inventor. They are not mutually inclusive. Vappad could've been known about as a form and being work on by Mace to continue to master it and tweak it. There is NO mention about him being a master of it.

NOW POST THE PROOF that Mace had mastered Vaapad and Shatterpoint by the time of the duels. Post proof that Mace never beat Dooku? Post the dates of the sparring matches between Yoda, Dooku and Mace. I also want proof they were fighting all out and going all out with sabers? Now get to it or concede.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

NOW POST THE PROOF that Mace had mastered Vaapad and Shatterpoint by the time of the duels.

He had Shatterpoint as a child. So that would definitely be there to a high degree in the contests in question.

And is there any reason to believe Mace hadn't mastered Vapaad at the time? It's not like he was a Padawan, he was a Senior Council Member/Head of the whole frigging Council.

And if Obi-Wan was seeking permission to be trained in it chances are it was already well developed.

Heck the fact that the quote states that ONLY Dooku and Yoda had ever defeated him shows it's clearly talking about a well established Mace.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Well established and mastered at the level he had by ROTS AREN'T MUTUALLY INCLUSIVE buddy. They can be world's apart. As I mention.. Just look at Kenobi.. He got pwned by Dooku in AOTC using Ataru.. BY ROTS he was THE master of Soresu. A few years can and have made all the difference in the world.

Further, as I pointed out.. that quote NEVER says Mace never beat Dooku... Just as in the example I posted... I'll give another... It could be said that the Raging Bull was one of only a few fighters to EVER beat Sugar Ray in his prime. While true, that doesn't talk about the 5 losses Jake got at the hands of Sugar.. See how that works. That quote doesn't nor is there ANY quote that says Mace never beat Dooku.

Plus, regardless it's SPARRING... not applicable to life and death. Mace more certainly grew in power from the sparring matches to ROTS... and Dooku was much older and more experienced than Mace at the time of said sparring. That is all that is needed to put that quote in it's proper perspective.... i.e. it was a simple quote used to build up Dooku and make him badass. This is done all the time. Dooku is badass, but let's nol make more out of this quote than need be.

Jedi Mom

You talk as if the only proof we've given you is that he's got Windu beaten in sparring. You're ignoring canon proof in which Dooku survived against Mace and Kenobi (albeit with guards) and ignoring their fight on Boz Pity in which they are equal.

DARTH POWER

Agreed. It only adds to the numerous sources explaining/showing that there is at least parity between the 2.

Where are all the sources/proofs of Mace being superior?

It all seems to come down to Vapaad being seen as a guaranteed win against Dark Siders.

As for sparring meaning nothing. Well it clearly does give an indication of combat prowess since it was ONLY Dooku and Yoda who were capable of beating Mace.

As for Mace substantially improving over the years. Well the evidence suggests it was actually Dooku who grew more powerful as a Sith.

KuRuPT Thanosi

DP do you think sparring is the same as a life and death fight? Simple question.. Answer it bud

Furthermore, did you see my boxing analogy.. Jake Lamotta could say he was only one of few to overcome Sugar Ray in his prime.. While true.. does that sentence mention the 5 losses get got from Sugar? That line means next to nothing. Not only was it sparring it was a prime dooku with more experience and knowledge fighting a green Mace compared to ROTS. How on earth people view that line as anything substantial is beyond me.

Q99

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Agreed. It only adds to the numerous sources explaining/showing that there is at least parity between the 2.

Where are all the sources/proofs of Mace being superior?

It all seems to come down to Vapaad being seen as a guaranteed win against Dark Siders.

To me, it was a case of he was winning against Palpatine (not won, but was doing more of the pressing forward), while Yoda had Dooku on the defense.

Jedi Mom

^The script has Yoda disarming Sidious iirc.

The_Tempest

The so-called "ABC" syllogism doesn't always work with respect to fights because battles can end very differently depending on circumstance, environment, motivation, etc.

Simply put, Mace dropping Sidious doesn't necessarily mean he'd do it to Dooku nor does it mean he'd be able to do it to Sidious again. Ironically, the same paradigm applies to Dooku beating Mace in the past. Just because he's done it at least once doesn't mean he'd do it consistently.

Unfortunately for the Count, Vaapad is an equalizer here and it will be present for Mace to use against him. And while it alone wasn't enough to allow Mace to beat Sidious, Dooku is no Sidious. erm

Q99

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The so-called "ABC" syllogism doesn't always work with respect to fights because battles can end very differently depending on circumstance, environment, motivation, etc.

Yea, it doesn't... but do we have anything else to indicate otherwise?

There are cases where someone performs better against some types of foes but worse against others (Fisto vs Grievous going much better for Kit than Fisto vs Ventress. Or Kenobi, Anakin, and Dooku), but we don't have enough indication to see if that's the case here.

Those two fights made Mace look the more impressive.

Well, that and the matter that Dooku lost to Anakin's power, and Mace is also a very physically powerful duelist.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
DP do you think sparring is the same as a life and death fight? Simple question.. Answer it bud

No. But combat prowess is obviously used in sparring, so it does give us an indication.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Furthermore, did you see my boxing analogy.. Jake Lamotta could say he was only one of few to overcome Sugar Ray in his prime.. While true.. does that sentence mention the 5 losses get got from Sugar?

I never said Mace never beat Dooku. It'd be a reasonable assumption that he did even though there's no evidence of that.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That line means next to nothing. Not only was it sparring it was a prime dooku with more experience and knowledge fighting a green Mace compared to ROTS. How on earth people view that line as anything substantial is beyond me.

It wasn't prime Dooku. Sith Dooku was Prime Dooku. And where's your proof that Mace was so much worse then than he was in ROTS?

Fact is they've fought twice during the Clone Wars period. And Mace did not show superiority either time.

They're seem to be on par. But I'd personally give Mace the edge in Sabers and Dooku the edge in the Force.

Jedi Mom

I feel Dooku's edge (force) is bigger in comparison to Mace's edge (sabers) which is why Dooku wins.

Galan007

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The so-called "ABC" syllogism doesn't always work with respect to fights because battles can end very differently depending on circumstance, environment, motivation, etc.

Simply put, Mace dropping Sidious doesn't necessarily mean he'd do it to Dooku nor does it mean he'd be able to do it to Sidious again. Ironically, the same paradigm applies to Dooku beating Mace in the past. Just because he's done it at least once doesn't mean he'd do it consistently.

Unfortunately for the Count, Vaapad is an equalizer here and it will be present for Mace to use against him. And while it alone wasn't enough to allow Mace to beat Sidious, Dooku is no Sidious. erm

Like you said: Vaapad alone didn't give Mace an edge against Palpatine-- it merely equalized their respective powers. Mace being able to sense shatterpoints is what ultimately allowed him to press advantage and "overpower" Palps. Put them on a ground-level wide open street without any of those same situational/locational shatterpoints available for Mace to readily exploit, and the battle could well end differently. Although there is no real proof to support this opinion, it is certainly a logical one.

At any rate, I don't see why people are still talking about Dooku out-sparring Mace back when he was a Jedi, and the full effects of Vaapad were not applicable..? That 'evidence' is utterly inconsequential to the fight at hand. Here, Mace will be facing Dooku as a Sith lord, and Vaapad's superconducting loop will be in full effect.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No. But combat prowess is obviously used in sparring, so it does give us an indication.

I never said Mace never beat Dooku. It'd be a reasonable assumption that he did even though there's no evidence of that.

It wasn't prime Dooku. Sith Dooku was Prime Dooku. And where's your proof that Mace was so much worse then than he was in ROTS?

Fact is they've fought twice during the Clone Wars period. And Mace did not show superiority either time.

They're seem to be on par. But I'd personally give Mace the edge in Sabers and Dooku the edge in the Force.

1. I agree we're on the same page.

2. I agree we're on the same page

3. We disagree and agree here. Firstly, you stated earlier you believe Mace grew in power and mastery by the time of ROTS. A logical deduction since we see evidence for this with countless people growing in power in a shorter period of time. Are you now stating you don't believe he grew in power or mastery?

Next, I disagree that Sith Dooku was Prime just beause he was a sith. I do agree he grew in power in SOME areas.. but as we know... going to the DS also makes one weaker in other areas. Yoda casually dealing with Dooku lighting proves that any advantages a DS gains in power.. a jedi can have an answer to that as well as not having their mind clouded by anger.. fear...lust for power etc etc. Mentality is just a big a weapon as a saber. Anyways, not only that.. but you must rember Dooku was OLDER than Kenobi was during ANH. That Kenobi on panel is stated to be weaker and his appearance backed up said claim. So, while dooku gained power in some areas... he physical body was no longer prime. That much should be obvious.

4. I agree Mace has an edge in Sabers and I believe they are equal in the force. Maybe.. just maybe a slight edge to Dooku in the force.. but not nearly enough to give him the victory.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

4. I agree Mace has an edge in Sabers and I believe they are equal in the force. Maybe.. just maybe a slight edge to Dooku in the force.. but not nearly enough to give him the victory.

I agree the all-out fight is more likely to be decided in a Saber contest than a Force contest.

And Mace probably has the edge there in pure Sabers.

But then Dooku tends to do well in All-Out's as he's very good at combining the 2 - Saber Prowess with simultaneous Force attacks.

So it's too close to call Imo.

Vensai

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I agree the all-out fight is more likely to be decided in a Saber contest than a Force contest.

And Mace probably has the edge there in pure Sabers.

But then Dooku tends to do well in All-Out's as he's very good at combining the 2 - Saber Prowess with simultaneous Force attacks.

So it's too close to call Imo.

Depends on environment really. But Dooku always appeared more confident whenever he engaged Windu.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Except the one I provided you that declares three of them were beyond Obi-Wan's ability to handle alone.
Which predates other sources that have Padawans pwning them in the threes.

The ROTS novel and the microseries were written at the same time though. In fact in the ROTS commentary directly references the microseries. The microseries depicts Jedi struggling with Magnaguards. Shaak Ti is the only one in the series who fights off dozens. And if a goddamned Padawan can take on 3, mere days after she left the Jedi Temple a Jedi Master and renowned swordbeing taking on dozens isn't farfetched at all.

Yes you do.

It will take more than an outdated source from a C-canon novel to convince me. Especially when T-Canon source material and other C-canon material contradicts that quote. No Magnaguard is a match for a Jedi Master.

Considering Grievous has feats that allow him to match Mace Windu blade for blade, with 2 sabers no.

Don't put words in my mouth like you shove Windu's BBC in yours.

Burden of proof is on you to find me a source that says Mace bested Dooku. Except...there are none considering I've checked all the source material.

laughing

That made me lol in real life.

Uh, no. My argument is that I'd rather have Obi-Wan Kenobi backing me up against Dooku, than Magnaguards backing me up against Mace Windu.

The Magnaguards caught Windu off guard, and he didn't have Obi-Wan watching his back.

No.
They are equals WITH Vaapad and Shatterpoints included in the equations. With Dooku's force powers granting him a SLIGHT advantage. SLIGHT. I don't think I need to say that enough. SLIGHT. Once more SLIGHT advantage.

The_Tempest

Unless those three that were pwned by the Padawan were the same three that were apparently beyond Obi-Wan, you lack a cogent point.

Nothing new, there, of course.

And even if I were to entertain that tragically inane argument, it's still irrelevant unless you can prove that the MagnaGuards beyond Obi-Wan's prowess were part of the group that accosted Shaak Ti.

No, I don't?

My friend, you're the lying son of a ***** who claimed ad nauseam that Qui-Gon and Mace were equals and, when asked, refused to provide the evidence. I'm not interested in convincing you of anything.

You haven't offered a single shred of evidence that contradicts the quote.

Thank God I didn't claim that.

Right, because Labyrinth of Evil isn't an outdated source. I forgot how age and obsolescence are irrelevant when they support your little jihad against Mace Windu.

Even if I wanted to put words in your mouth, I don't think you'd let Dooku move away from it long enough for me to succeed.

I didn't make the claim, you did. Instead of properly wording your remark ("There exists no evidence to suggest Mace ever bested Dooku" or "No source to my knowledge ever claims Mace ever bested Dooku" wink

, you jumped the gun and made an absolute claim on the matter.

Retract the claim or prove up. If your next post doesn't include either of these, it will be considered an act of concession.

Except... you said the same thing about Qui-Gon vs. Mace and you flat out lied. Clearly your anti-Mace agenda incites dishonesty on your part.

I'm sure Dooku enjoyed the hummer.

Yup, because Mace Windu would have failed where a "goddamn Padawan" fresh from Coruscant succeeded, and two droids would have gave Dooku a decisive advantage over him.

thumb up

Not really. Mace soloed an army of droids; Dooku can't take 30 pirates. Mace would clearly trash the Count since the microseries is unexaggerated.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by The_Tempest
-snip-

I am tired of this argument, it's a giant digression from our primary debate. You can either prove that the MagnaGuards that were backing up the Count were the same of Greivous' personal guard on Utapau or GTFO. Because from what I can see those 3 are unique even if we take that quote with a grain of salt.

**** you man. I didn't lie about anything. Even as far back as '08 people believed the quote existed. I personally went through the wookiepedia and a shit ton of source material to ascertain the truth. I debunked all of them. I was lied to a devoted a lot of my own time to find out the truth. And when I found I was wrong I admitted it.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t479921.html

LOE is a valid source to back up why Kenobi would retreat against the Genera.

I don't have to prove a negative. It's not up to me to prove that Mace never bested Dooku, it's up to you to prove Mace bested Dooku. Debating 101.

Because I had been deceived. I'd appreciate you not bringing that up considering I've already retracted my remarks on the matter. It's just a dick move of you to bring it up. Then again, you are what you eat.

I am well aware of that. That's what I said. Those Magnaguards didn't have to be the bee's knees in order to give an advantage to Dooku. As I said they are equals. 2 Magnaguards would easily give him the advantage.

Different incomparable circumstances.

Arhael

My friend, you're the lying son of a ***** who claimed ad nauseam that Qui-Gon and Mace were equals and, when asked, refused to provide the evidence. I'm not interested in convincing you of anything.

Except... you said the same thing about Qui-Gon vs. Mace and you flat out lied. Clearly your anti-Mace agenda incites dishonesty on your part.

He admitted of being wrong on the matter quite some time ago. But of course you will never let go of the past. wink

axel_jovan

Originally posted by Vensai
Depends on environment really. But Dooku always appeared more confident whenever he engaged Windu.
Dooku was also quite confident when engaging Yoda. Didn't help him much. stick out tongue

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It's just a dick move of you to bring it up. Then again, you are what you eat.

laughing

Now this is worthy of a LOL

Zett

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not really. Mace soloed an army of droids; Dooku can't take 30 pirates. Mace would clearly trash the Count since the microseries is unexaggerated.

Pure Windu's fanboy ;|

After Yoda: DR its clear that Dooku > Windu in the force. But as I see, not for some fanboys like You. But np. I can give You some quote from reference book, which is above your funny cw series.
The Jedi Master confronted Dooku. The two engaged in a titanic struggle of force powers, neither besting the other. - The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, p.198.

Beside that, Dooku prove himself better then Mace against people like Sora Bulq. Dooku was untouchable for people like Bulq, while Windu wasn't (Bulq was even able to force push him).

The_Tempest

The nuances of debate continue to elude you, I see. This argument that has exhausted your mediocre mind was one you started.

I simply pointed out that Dooku didn't take on Mace and Obi-Wan unaided. You dismissed them as non-factors. I need only prove that MagnaGuards can be lethal to Jedi Masters in small numbers; I never claimed that the ones aiding Dooku were, precisely because I don't know.

You, clumsy hack that you are, stumbled right into this mess on your own volition.

It's no more valid than the ROTS quote I provided about the MagnaGuards viz a viz Obi-Wan.

I don't have to prove something I NEVER CLAIMED.

Yup, because Shaak Ti can take on 30, Ahsoka can take on 3, but Mace Windu would be brought down by 2. thumb up

Different only because it makes Dooku look like a b1tch and Windu look like a god?

Concession accepted.

�hroud

Originally posted by Zett
Pure Windu's fanboy ;|

After Yoda: DR its clear that Dooku > Windu in the force. But as I see, not for some fanboys like You. But np. I can give You some quote from reference book, which is above your funny cw series.
The Jedi Master confronted Dooku. The two engaged in a titanic struggle of force powers, neither besting the other. - The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, p.198.

Beside that, Dooku prove himself better then Mace against people like Sora Bulq. Dooku was untouchable for people like Bulq, while Windu wasn't (Bulq was even able to force push him).

laughing

That's a ****ing joke.

Tempest is not a "Windu Fanboy" - he is a champion of Darth Sidious, and wouldn't ever over exaggerate on Windu's abilities beyond what Canon implies.

And he's done a fine job of proving Windu the victor, here.

And when Dooku had his "titanic struggle" with Yoda in DR - he was on a Dark side Force Nexus, Idiot.

It is clear that up until a certain point in the War, Windu and Dooku were equals - and later at some point, Windu surpassed Dooku in nearly all respects.

Dooku knew in his heart of hearts that he could never defeat Darth Sidious without more time for study and preparation - and ironically, the book you referenced points this out very well.

Mace Windu on the other hand matched the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith in history and defeated him - having him at Windu's mercy.

It's very clear to those who aren't afflicted with Cerebral Palsy that Windu wins here. cool