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In your opinion, do you support the idea to grant amnesty to anyone who crosses our borders illegally? Do you support our system to reward law breakers while those still in their respective foreign lands are still working to obtain social security and citizenship to be in the United States? No offense is intended here. I just want your take on all this.

For the sake of keeping your question impartial, I'd advise not inserting your own feelings on the matter into it (such as the process being "unfair".

Otherwise, what you have is a loaded question.

Edit: gj

As far as my own stance: from a moral perspective I don't mind illegal immigrants being allowed to stay do long as they don't commit crimes. From a practical perspective, however, I believe that there's too many complications that arise from allowing them to stay, considering how long it takes for them to get their cards or whatever.

I agree with legalizing illegal immigration. I do not agree with Obama's amnesty decision, I think its insulting to people who are trying to get into the US legally.

Can we truly ever legalize illegal immigration?

No, but you can legalize these nuts.

If there is no difference between foreigner and citizen then you do not have a country. There is no basis for the distribution of social services like Social Security, Welfare, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. So you can drain the money from a social program by introducing a large enough amount of people who are withdrawing but not depositing.

Additionally the more low skill workers you have in a society the more worthless labor becomes. Driving down the salary of the lowest paid people in the country and making it harder to earn a living wage.

Most illegal immigration discussion is directed at our neighbors to the south (in the USA) and I admittedly have a bias in their favor, I also know that a country needs strict immigration laws to stay afloat. If anyone had actually been enforcing our immigration laws in the USA we would not have the current problem we do now, but here we are. I think the Dream act is decent but that extremely strict immigration law should be put into effect very soon or we risk a further loss in the quality of life for those who are already struggling.


TL: DR
No

Originally posted by Bardock42
Can we truly ever legalize illegal immigration?
Former illegal immigration?

ALL illegal immigration

Originally posted by Oliver North
ALL illegal immigration
Then what's the point of immigration laws? http://www.chatslang.com/images/shortcuts/twitch/admins/kappa.png

Originally posted by Astner
Then what's the point of immigration laws? http://www.chatslang.com/images/shortcuts/twitch/admins/kappa.png

keeping the little guy down, man

Oh most definitely no! We must ask the masters for permission to let people walk across the arbitrary lines drawn on a map or else we wouldn't be a formal tax farm, *erm*, country!

But these damn cattle cannot be free, oh no no, the rest of us cattle will be upset! They must be extorted, *erm*, taxed like the lot of us! For the good of society of course... what else?


Sounds like a bunch of chickens complaining about the birds who just come in, take some feed, and fly away. Up until they get their heads cut off of course.

I for one am glad that we have at least one poster here who's completely above the fray and enlightened.

this is the dumbest topic ever

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I for one am glad that we have at least one poster here who's completely above the fray and enlightened.
Stop it, you're embarrassing me.

Originally posted by Nemesis X
In your opinion, do you support the idea to grant amnesty to anyone who crosses our borders illegally? Do you support our system to reward law breakers while those still in their respective foreign lands are still working to obtain social security and citizenship to be in the United States? No offense is intended here. I just want your take on all this.

If you're about the Dream Act, it's not rewarding law breakers per se, as "arrived as children" is one of the stipulations. So their arrival in the US was beyond their control. It's like blaming a child cos his father took him on a run to rob a liquor store.

Their parents who brought them here illegally are law breakers and those children (or now adults) who want to fall under the Dream Act should be required to beat their parents to death with their own shoes as one of the stipulations.

^ Typical aloof white man who doesn't understand the immigrants' plight.

Immigrants don't have shoes. They'd have to at least use pinata sticks.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
^ Typical aloof white man who doesn't understand the immigrants' plight.

Immigrants don't have shoes. They'd have to at least use pinata sticks.

When I said "shoes" I was including all footwear, like hand-me-down sandals and hollowed out gourds.

Originally posted by Robtard
If you're about the Dream Act, it's not rewarding law breakers per se, as "arrived as children" is one of the stipulations. So their arrival in the US was beyond their control. It's like blaming a child cos his father took him on a run to rob a liquor store.

Their parents who brought them here illegally are law breakers and those children (or now adults) who want to fall under the Dream Act should be required to beat their parents to death with their own shoes as one of the stipulations.

Well I guess if they crossed the border with their parents as infants, it would feel morally wrong kicking them out when the only country they're familiar with is America as they grew up and we can keep them here but only them. Anymore children that come to take advantage we need to send back to their home country so we can remind the world we have laws. And the students staying here to learn aside, that would still leave millions of illegal immigrants that didn't come here as kids and even those ones are being argued over to stay.

Give them a path to citizenship and allow them amnesty.

Originally posted by snowdragon
Give them a path to citizenship and allow them amnesty.

Why though?

i think they should legalizing illegal marijuana

Originally posted by Nemesis X
Well I guess if they crossed the border with their parents as infants, it would feel morally wrong kicking them out when the only country they're familiar with is America as they grew up and we can keep them here but only them. Anymore children that come to take advantage we need to send back to their home country so we can remind the world we have laws. And the students staying here to learn aside, that would still leave millions of illegal immigrants that didn't come here as kids and even those ones are being argued over to stay.

Why draw the line at infants? Seems a toddler who spent say 5 years here would have the same "familiar with America" marker, or a 10 year old who crossed over illegally and is now 30.

Again, "children" don't come here to take advantage generally speaking. They're brought here by their parents, other family or some older guardian. I'm sure you could find me a story of an orphaned 10 year old who made a solo trip over the Rio Grande, but that's not the norm.

Originally posted by Robtard
Why draw the line at infants? Seems a toddler who spent say 5 years here would have the same "familiar with America" marker, or a 10 year old who crossed over illegally and is now 30.

Point taken.

If illegal immigration is legalized, then part of the immigration law will become meaningless.

Exactly. Why even have a fence? Shouldn't we just give amnesty away to everyone around the world to come join in? If you think about it, should the twenty million illegal immigrants be granted citizenship, what's to say it won't be argued to keep twenty million more once the bill passes and encourages more to sneak in America?

Originally posted by Nemesis X
Shouldn't we just give amnesty away to everyone around the world to come join in? If you think about it, should the twenty million illegal immigrants be granted citizenship ?

Yes

to be honest, I really don't understand what the downside is...

Originally posted by Oliver North
to be honest, I really don't understand what the downside is...

-Unregistered criminals

-Health care financial burden

-Education financial burden

-Law enforcement burden

-The slums that rise up when large masses of poor people settle down

-Regional overpopulation

These are just six issues that are brought up, there are more I am sure.

based on the assumption that immigration laws prevent illegal immigration, yes?

Originally posted by Oliver North
based on the assumption that immigration laws prevent illegal immigration, yes?

The laws don't prevent, they lesson. ie paying for 20 million illegals compared to paying for 20+X illegals.

Originally posted by Oliver North
to be honest, I really don't understand what the downside is...

Social programs cost money. More people places more strain on those programs. The question is if immigrants will bring in more money than they will cost. I don't think its realistic to expect that they will, almost certainly not once you open the floodgates.

no, thats what I meant

I'm not sure I'd agree with the assumption though, do the laws really stop anyone from entering? It seems the money saved trying to enforce such ineffective laws would be at least one added benefit.

Originally posted by Oliver North
no, thats what I meant

I'm not sure I'd agree with the assumption though, do the laws really stop anyone from entering? It seems the money saved trying to enforce such ineffective laws would be at least one added benefit.

Yes, seems they stop people when they're caught and turned back around and it also prevents some people from ever trying, due to fear and/or lack of financial resources to pay the Coyotes (illegal border runners). I couldn't give you an exact number though.

Really can't say how much the US spends on its prevention methods.

I don't have any numbers either, probably no reliable ones anyways. idk, I can't say I think costs are going to increase too dramatically if people who are already in America, using the services described, were given citizenship.

It is probably not a good idea to do something that would encourage illegal immigration though... which, ya, idk. It almost strikes me like drug laws, the number of people they are stopping is negligible... at least that is my thinking...

Originally posted by Oliver North
no, thats what I meant

I'm not sure I'd agree with the assumption though, do the laws really stop anyone from entering? It seems the money saved trying to enforce such ineffective laws would be at least one added benefit.

Money saved on enforcement would be one benefit but there are invisible benefits to the enforcement, so-called "soft power". We can't get a count of the people who decided not to make the trip because of the border patrol or because of the difficulty of the process. It's almost impossible to say what immigration to the US would look like with truly open borders. Uncertain costs are worth worrying about especially for something as irreversible as bringing in potentially tens of millions of new people.

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/truth-hurts-mike-shapira/2013/apr/2/illegal-immigration-rising-and-dangerous-tide/

"Would you want to be accused of being ignorant or racist..."

lol

"This year alone, American taxpayers are footing a $113 billion bill to ensure that illegal immigrants receive free education, health care, and other services, according to a study by Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), a non-partisan group that has been called to testify in front of Congress about immigration bills more than any other group in the U.S."

There's a number. Does seem large.

how would legalizing this make anything better?

It won't but they don't care. Whatever gives them cheap labor and more votes.

ok, well i think i figured out how to make this happen. See i was so confuzzled about this idea. I mean, why would you even suggest making illegal immigration legal? What is the point of having laws if you're going to break them or change them just for your benefit? Then it hit me. I now know why this situation is so hard. we have two words at war here. Illegal and immigration. Just drop Illegal and then everyone will be happy. Ok, that's definitely how dem politicians must make these decisions. I better hurry up and get the **** out of this country before i become an illegal citizen.

Just why is the term illegal immigrant such an issue anyway? If somebody crossed the border non-legally, what else are they if not immigrants who came here illegally? If it's so offensive, what else do we need to get rid of that would be "inhumane" to describe somebody breaking society's rules? If intoxicated individuals driving cars hate being called drunk drivers, will that be gone?

Originally posted by Nemesis X
Just why is the term illegal immigrant such an issue anyway?

In my experience the term "illegals" is what people take offense to, its dehumanizing.

just go to one of the border towns. Then you'll realize real quick who the illegal immigrants, immigrants and mexicans are. There is definitely a distinguishable line. im just saying there is a system set in place. The vast majority of the people use abide by and appreciate said system. When others say" frack that, i dont need no man tellin me wah to do, ima climb that fence". When this sober person wakes up on the other side of that fence. THE MAN asks the inebriated dumb shit what he was doing on this side of the fence. THe drunken fool responded by saying.."huh, wha ooooh yeah i don't know i hate dis cuntry, peace a crap it belongs to me though so i wann it back?
THE MAN...,walked away.

wut

The bill that will grant illegal immigrants citizenship might kick out anyone who came to the US after Dec. 31, 2011 and doesn't have a clean criminal record.

http://dailycaller.com/2013/04/12/reports-legalization-promise-spurs-illegal-immigration/

.........

Originally posted by Nemesis X
http://dailycaller.com/2013/04/12/reports-legalization-promise-spurs-illegal-immigration/

.........

Gotta love the comments on that website.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Gotta love the comments on that website. This one especially tickled my fancy:

"Our once great United States of America, has been permanently destroyed by the rich elite low-lifes who are addicted to cheap slave labor."

No, I don't think we should legalize illegal immigration - but I do have a middle of the road solution. I think illegal immigrants should be given some kind of special license, where they sign up - kind of like a union, to make sure that they can't be used as cheap labor. Also, I would put in a clause someplace that says "after you've lived here years, staying signed up and following whatever rules are put into place, you may start to apply for citizenship.

The license would also allow the illegal immigrants to be susceptible to all things that regular citizens have to do - pay taxes, give their fingerprints for record, etc.

It sets a sort of pathway for those who truly want to be a United States citizen. Of course, those who flout the rules and try to stay undercover should be deported.

It's just a sketch of an idea, so don't definitively quote me on this. But I think the US needs to start thinking about ways that illegal immigrants can be part of the society. Just my opinion.

Can we just start calling it LII? It's much easier.

I don't think it is so simple as a "yes or no" question. There are some very employable people all over this world who are trying to find a better life, and not only for themselves. Some folks have this crazy idea of building community. And a non-obtrusive/co-dependent/smart-working one at that. Nonetheless, the idea I'm trying to express is; Does it really matter is it's legalized or not? It doesn't Any person or people with enough drive and focus towards a specific goal will meet it. Complete annihilation, notwithstanding. IMO

Immigration reform will cost $6.3 trillion.

Driving down the salary of the lowest paid people in the country and making it harder to earn a living wage. ULN2003

Violent criminals released by ICE if they are 'Obama Dreamers'

Yeah, that site doesn't look like it has an agenda.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Yeah, that site doesn't look like it has an agenda.

Nope, no agenda or massive, throbbing biases to be found there.

http://dailycaller.com/2013/05/08/beware-of-liberals-who-come-in-evangelicals-clothing/

Seriously, Nemesis, stop linking us this garbage. It's ****ing embarrassing.

We need our own Berlin wall running along the entire length of the border to keep illegals out. All trade should be handled via cargo ships and tractor/trailer traffic should be halted or even more tightly regulated than it is now.

Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
We need our own Berlin wall running along the entire length of the border to keep illegals out. All trade should be handled via cargo ships and tractor/trailer traffic should be halted or even more tightly regulated than it is now.

How much do you factor that would cost? Keep in mind you'd have to still patrol the wall and pay for its upkeep.

Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
We need our own Berlin wall running along the entire length of the border to keep illegals out. All trade should be handled via cargo ships and tractor/trailer traffic should be halted or even more tightly regulated than it is now.

let me guess, you are one of them small-government types?

Originally posted by Robtard
How much do you factor that would cost? Keep in mind you'd have to still patrol the wall and pay for its upkeep.

Ah, shouldn't be that much, just use some cheap ille......oh.

Originally posted by Robtard
How much do you factor that would cost? Keep in mind you'd have to still patrol the wall and pay for its upkeep.

I was really being facetious with that comment. As far as the cost, it would be cheaper than ObamaCare over the long haul..lol. I have no practical solution but something needs to be done to control the situation. I have no problem with immigrants seeking a better life in America, but it must be done the right way. Commiting a crime by illegaly entering a country is not the right way.

What worries me the most is not immigration itself, but the insecurity of our borders. If Latinos can cross this border illegally without being caught, then terrorist cells in Asia and the Middle East most certainly can do the same.

However, that subject is a different topic. My primary concern with illegal immigration is the social problems that it brings. I don't want my tax money to help provide free handouts, when I can't get half the things they are eligible for. I already despise people who sit on their ass drawing welfare and foodstamps when the vast majority are able to get a job, but choose not too. I realize illegal immigrants come here to work, but they get paid under the table and can take full advantage of the system at the same time.

Like I said earlier, I'm not against immigration, but it must be regulated and done the right way.

As far as I know domestic terrorists and terrorists staying legally in the country is a much, much, bigger problem than threats from terrorists crossing the boarder illegally.

Illegal Immigrants can surely not take full advantage of the system the same way you can (and they do pay certain taxes anyways, sales tax for example).

Originally posted by Oliver North
let me guess, you are one of them small-government types?

You think? Well, I'm a proud southerner, so I must be a Republican, huh

Actually, I could care less about government. I only care about issues that directly affect me and my paycheck. If I had my choice, i'd own an island and choose not to be governed.

Well, no government is pretty damn small , so I suppose you might be right, chief.

Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
You think? Well, I'm a proud southerner, so I must be a Republican, huh

Actually, I could care less about government. I only care about issues that directly affect me and my paycheck. If I had my choice, i'd own an island and choose not to be governed.

Well, no government is pretty damn small , so I suppose you might be right, chief.

mind=blown

you couldn't disagree with what I said, yet support the point I was making, in any more significant of a way...

Originally posted by Oliver North
mind=blown

you couldn't disagree with what I said, yet support the point I was making, in any more significant of a way...


You never made a point. You offered a guess as to what political viewpoint I may have regarding the size of government. As an 'intellectual' and 'big government' liberal, I thought you would know the difference.

Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
As an 'intellectual' and 'big government' liberal, I thought you would know the difference.

get out of my head!!!!

I bet you know I voted for Obama too!

EDIT: why is "big government" in quotes?

Originally posted by Oliver North
get out of my head!!!!

I bet you know I voted for Obama too!

EDIT: why is "big government" in quotes?

Good question. I usually assume it is for the person to distance themselves from such labels as they wouldn't use it in the real world. But he could mean it sarcastically.

Originally posted by dadudemon
sarcastically.


Bingo


Anyway, back on topic.

What does the sarcastic phrasing of "big government" convey from a conservative point of view?

Originally posted by Oliver North
I bet you know I voted for Obama too!


Damn it, I could have sworn you were a Ron Paul guy!!

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
What does the sarcastic phrasing of "big government" convey from a conservative point of view?

That liberals don't want a "big government" per se, just a crony government for their union buddies?

Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
Damn it, I could have sworn you were a Ron Paul guy!!

or not even American at all...

Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
If Latinos can cross this border illegally without being caught, then terrorist cells in Asia and the Middle East most certainly can do the same.
No, they can't.

Edit: Double post.

lol no..