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Originally posted by Mindship
Perhaps a more precisely worded OP in "Skynet vs Matrix v.2" would take care of any "ambiguities."

As suggested, let's see if we can make this less ambiguous.

The wolds/realities occupied by Skynet and the Matrix merge (don't ask me how, they just do). They know absolutely nothing about each other, but they decide to destroy the other team so that they'll be the sole robotic entity in control of the world.

They use their entire forces and whatever resources they have to try and destroy the other team. Who wins the war?

Skynet via:

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/1474222/atomic-bomb-o.gif

i believe it was already established that skynet, given their ability to travel backwards through time, could easily wipe out the matrix in its infancy.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
i believe it was already established that skynet, given their ability to travel backwards through time, could easily wipe out the matrix in its infancy.

But then in this thread it's mentioned that they know nothing about each other. Therefore, Skynet has no idea how or when the Matrix started and will not know how to destroy it in the past.

Originally posted by FrothByte
As suggested, let's see if we can make this less ambiguous.You honor me, sir.

Originally posted by FrothByte
They use their entire forces and whatever resources they have to try and destroy the other team.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Skynet has no idea how or when the Matrix started...We know that a common tactic for Skynet is to send back a terminator to nix the origin of an enemy. I submit it begins a systematic search for the origin of the Matrix in those years calculated to have the highest probability of an AI arising.

Still, it would be easier to use/manufacture nukes. On the other hand, I still see the Matrix as the superior AI with superior hacking skills.

I give this to whoever becomes aware of the other first then plots and executes first strike.

Originally posted by Mindship

I give this to whoever becomes aware of the other first then plots and executes first strike.

a fair assessment.

Originally posted by Mindship
You honor me, sir.


We know that a common tactic for Skynet is to send back a terminator to nix the origin of an enemy. I submit it begins a systematic search for the origin of the Matrix in those years calculated to have the highest probability of an AI arising.

Still, it would be easier to use/manufacture nukes. On the other hand, I still see the Matrix as the superior AI with superior hacking skills.

I give this to whoever becomes aware of the other first then plots and executes first strike.

You're welcome. On the issue about time travel, I believe it's effectiveness (or rather it's non-effectiveness) was already discussed briefly in T3 and T4, although the best explanation I've heard yet was from the movie Time Machine. I'll try to explain this theory on why it won't work using this current situation as an example:

Skynet sees the threat of the Matrix and thus decides to send a terminator back in time to stop the matrix from ever happening. But no matter what the terminator does in the past, it can never stop the Matrix from coming into being because if there was no Matrix in the future, then Skynet would never have sent the terminator back in the past and thus there would never have been a terminator to stop the Matrix in the past. So for that terminator to have been sent to the past, the Matrix needs to exist in the future, meaning the terminator will always fail.

This was explained briefly I believe near the end of T3 (or beginning of T4 maybe?) wherein it's said that even thought the Connors killed the man responsible for making Skynet (Dyson) and destroyed the lab, it was impossible to stop the future from happening. All they did was alter the way it happened (in this case postponed judgement day).

So I suppose this theory should apply as well to this thread since it was used in the terminator movies.

Originally posted by FrothByte
You're welcome. On the issue about time travel, I believe it's effectiveness (or rather it's non-effectiveness) was already discussed briefly in T3 and T4, although the best explanation I've heard yet was from the movie Time Machine. I'll try to explain this theory on why it won't work using this current situation as an example:

Skynet sees the threat of the Matrix and thus decides to send a terminator back in time to stop the matrix from ever happening. But no matter what the terminator does in the past, it can never stop the Matrix from coming into being because if there was no Matrix in the future, then Skynet would never have sent the terminator back in the past and thus there would never have been a terminator to stop the Matrix in the past. So for that terminator to have been sent to the past, the Matrix needs to exist in the future, meaning the terminator will always fail.

This was explained briefly I believe near the end of T3 (or beginning of T4 maybe?) wherein it's said that even thought the Connors killed the man responsible for making Skynet (Dyson) and destroyed the lab, it was impossible to stop the future from happening. All they did was alter the way it happened (in this case postponed judgement day).

So I suppose this theory should apply as well to this thread since it was used in the terminator movies.

No, that's not how the time travel movie logic works (the first part of your post).

The reason why Arnold said Judgement Day was inevitable not because of some mumble jumbo timeline, but because technology was constantly advancing, even if the first precursor (or whatever you want to call it) to Skynet was destroyed (as it was in T2), it would be developed again in the future.

I guess according to this, it isn't technically inevitable. Arnold could've stayed alive in T2 and continuously assassinate those who would advance Skynet until he ran out of power. But by then maybe he would be able to find an alternative power source.

this again?

Actually, the main issue here is that the two worlds somehow merge and are thrown together. I'm going to assume that they're suddenly thrown onto some alternate earth/designed planet. Their pasts could not co-exist, and therefore, the time travel bit is out AFAIC. They were created under very different circumstances, so I'm not sure how we're going to assume that only the Matrix past timeline exists.

Secondly, Skynet couldn't even kill ONE human or her son in the past. Clearly there ability to time travel isn't unlimited, and if they can't manage that, I doubt they could pull off the entire series of events necessary to stop the Matrix machines from coming into existence. I do not believe that the machines could manage to simply wipeout Skynet either given that for both timelines what has happened in the past is murky.

The humans in the Matrix and the Terminator series, as well as Skynet itself were unable to determine the sum total of events that led to their "current" existence. The time travel victory premise is entirely out of sorts in every way for this scenario. Just leave it alone.

Sticking with valid points that have already been discussed at length in the original thread, the machines wholly destroy skynet.

It's blatantly obvious that the Sentinels and other Matrix Machines outclass the Terminators in combat proficiency, so instead people are trying to tip-toe around it with time travel and such, which simply doesn't work.

Originally posted by Lestov16
tip-toe around

yeah computers applying unique abilities to strategy. pfft how gay.

i mean if skynet was that ball-less they would have just sent someone back in time to kill john conners mother instead of just taking on him and his whole sissy army!

head to head!!

LIKE A BADASS!!!!

at it'll be "pew pew pew *BOOOOOOOM*" all up in this shit and skynet dies because i said so/thread

Yeah. Anyone with a brain stem can tell that Skynet was struggling against the humans, to the point that they had to resort to time travel (which failed), whereas Zion would have been anally raped if not for Neo making the truce. Machines are clearly the bigger threat

I GET IT

you think that by avoiding time travel ability over and over eventually it wont be a legitimate factor in the topic.

are you using this forum as a test environment for some sort of newly invented brand of logic?

Originally posted by Lestov16
It's blatantly obvious that the Sentinels and other Matrix Machines outclass the Terminators in combat proficiency,

Are you sure the squids are really all that combat proficient?

In the battle for Zion, it was easily 20-to-1, Squid to exposed exo-combat-suit and they certainly didn't just overwhelm, despite the ridiculous speed and numbers advantage.

Yep Let's ignore that time travel has worked a whopping zero times for Skynet. Explain how the under-equipped humans were able to subvert the time travel, but the machines won't be able to.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Yep Let's ignore that time travel has worked a whopping zero times for Skynet. Explain how the humans were able to subvert the time travel, but the machines won't be able to.

For one, will the Matrix be able to send a unit(s) back in time itself to stop the one(s) Skynet sent? Last I checked, the Matrix excels at making highly advanced VR; it's not smart enough to crack time travel.

They'll use whatever method the humans did.

Originally posted by Lestov16
They'll use whatever method the humans did.

So your premise is "The Matrix will just happen to capture a Skynet time portal". Stop scripting.

Yes. If the humans could do it, a small squad of Sentinels could do it effortlessly. You honestly think Skynet will succeed in protecting their portal from the overwhelming Squiddies, when under-equipped humans managed to seize it stop scripting

Originally posted by Lestov16
It's blatantly obvious that the Sentinels and other Matrix Machines outclass the Terminators in combat proficiencyThey're faster, more agile, can fly, have more fighting appendages. However: Sentinels are very susceptible to EMPs. What about the Skynet machines? Offhand, I don't recall if they are. If anything, the cyborg Terminators, at least, were consistently shown to be extremely tenacious in pursuit of their prey ("That's what he does!".

Originally posted by Lestov16
Yes. If the humans could do it, a small squad of Sentinels could do it effortlessly. You honestly think Skynet will succeed in protecting their portal from the overwhelming Squiddies, when under-equipped humans managed to seize it stop scripting

1) Read the OP:

Originally posted by FrothByte
They know absolutely nothing about each other,

2) Watch the Terminator, the humans happened to luck onto a time displacement facility.

3) Stop the "no you" retorts, we already have enough of that and I'm clearly not the one who's trying to script with "The Matrix will just do it" type of replies.

So your premise of the Matrix combating Skynet's time antics the same way the humans did is faulty. Not that Skynet needs or would for certain use time travel here.

there is a valid point beneath liz's incredible mound of horseshit and its that the matrix, like skynet, is a conscious perfection of intelligence with the hardware to build w/e the **** it wants. i too believe that if the situation called for it, it could solve the problem of time travel just as handily. so it boils down to:

Originally posted by Mindship
whoever becomes aware of the other first then plots and executes first strike.

its already been stated that they are unaware of eachother so one will make the discovery first and have more time to prepare defenses/evade/launch nukes or wtf ever.

your attempt at scripting beyond that is adorable though

I'm assuming that the original Skynet/Matrix thread needs to be closed, yes?

the premise of this thread renders it stalemate.

Originally posted by Impediment
I'm assuming that the original Skynet/Matrix thread needs to be closed, yes?

Yes that's fine. Thanks.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
its already been stated that they are unaware of each other so one will make the discovery first and have more time to prepare defenses/evade/launch nukes or wtf ever.
Actually, the OP doesn't say if one will discover the other first or anything about prep:
Originally posted by FrothByte
The worlds/realities occupied by Skynet and the Matrix merge. They know absolutely nothing about each other, but they decide to destroy the other team so that they'll be the sole robotic entity in control of the world.
For all we know, it could've been a simultaneous discovery. Anyways, in response to this, my complete line was:
Originally posted by Mindship
I give this to whoever becomes aware of the other first then plots and executes first strike. Not "whoever will become aware of the other first." I was addressing one possibility (likely an unintended carryover from the previous thread).
Originally posted by focus4chumps
a fair assessment. Originally posted by focus4chumps
your attempt at scripting beyond that is adorable thoughYou were right the first time.

Originally posted by Mindship

For all we know, it could've been a simultaneous discovery.

fair enough

Originally posted by Mindship

You were right the first time.

lol calm down

Again, the time travel ideal makes even less sense against the Matrix. Even giving the assumption that the timelines of both sides are merged, and further assuming that Skynet is able to gain knowledge of the history of the machines, what are they going to do? There was no singular event that was discussed as being "the" turning point. It seems that AI was worked on and developed by multiple parties and that, unfortunately for the humans, those systems were interconnected in more than one way and multiple entities within the system became self-aware and sentient around the same time.

It seems extremely unlikely that anything can be done that stops the creation of the machines any more than singular agents of humanity were able to stop the creation of Skynet or any more than Skynet was able to kill either of the TWO humans who needed to die to keep them from being defeated.

Again, it's quite clear that the time travel itself is an arduous process, as otherwise Skynet would have sent back an entire squad to kill off the Connors. Why is this scenario still even being argued?

Further, obviously any attempt to change the past failed, because otherwise there would be no reason to go back anyway. In the first Terminator they discuss the possibility of perhaps affecting an alternate timeline, but as we see per the films in that "realm" any time travel to the past only results in minor changes in the future. Even in the third film Skynet only manages to kill off a few of Connor's lieutenants. The premise seems to hold to the "no reason to go back" fallacy of timeline alteration.

Skynet falls hard. In a situation of machines who conquered the entirety of humanity vs those who could never find a way to win in the end, I'll take the former.

As to the EMPs, there's no reason to assume the Terminators would be unaffected by them. Nothing suggests that they are somehow shielded from the effects. Terminators are harmed by high voltage, so I don't see anything indicating that they are magically protected from anything within the EM spectrum.

Due to timelines also being merged, I would assume anyway, then Skynet and the Matrix machines may share common creation elements in their history.

I had always imagined that the Matrix machines are what Skynet would eventually evolve into in time, if it ever gained the upper hand over the resistance. One particular point of note is that Skynet was paranoid as all hell in that it literlly set all it's troops to "read only" mode to prevent them becoming self aware on their own, effectively lobotomising it's own troops. BUT, how would Skynet know about this effect? The thing must've had some rogue AI's of it's own making, and, in a twisted crossover like this, the Matrix machines may have had it's origins in Skynet's screw-up rogue self aware AIs, and that makes time-schenanigans very difficult.

In a purely VS sense, Skynet is screwed. It lacks the centuries of tech advancement the Matrix machines have over it. But it does make up for it slightly in more potent and compact fuel sources that is hydrogen batteries, and perhaps a more militaristic development as well as access to unknown numbers and types of nuclear weaponry, even though the Matrix tech far outshines this.

was it ever determined if all of skynets' machines are networked real-time with central command like the matrix? (you know, one sentinal see's target or gets hit and the rest immediately swarm) im not sure if terminators have this ability.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
was it ever determined if all of skynets' machines are networked real-time with central command like the matrix? (you know, one sentinal see's target or gets hit and the rest immediately swarm) im not sure if terminators have this ability.

I can't be certain, but in T3, it was definitely remoting the proto HKs and T-1s, plus it was literally hardwired into every computer on the planet. Not to mention that the T-X had remote control capabilities, so I would say yes, it probably is. That would be the only way I can think of to effectively co-ordinate and control it's own forces if they are set to read-only.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I had always imagined that the Matrix machines are what Skynet would eventually evolve into in time, if it ever gained the upper hand over the resistance. Indeed.

I also think Skynet inventing the time machine reflected more a necessary plot device than a "true reflection" of Skynet's processing power, given the "more conventional" state of the rest of its hardware (liquid metal Terminator is impressive too, but the time machine trumps that by far, imo).

I might even say that Skynet may be somewhat of an AI savant, in this regard. Most of its stuff is conventional (more/less), but when it gets serious, it has these "quantum leap" breakthroughs.

The Matrix, otoh, is consistently on this higher level, given that it can hack vast multitudes of human brains and fool them completely.

The canon Animatrix explains it all. The Machines and humans had an all out war, and the humans struck first. They did a huge bombing of the main Machine City, 01. And keep in mind this happened decades upon decades in the future, with future nukes. The land of the Machine City "was lit from the light of the fire of a thousand suns".

Guess what? The machines survived. They started to battle with humanity, and started to win so badly that the humans came up with a desperate plan: Operation Darkstorm. We blotted out the

sun, since the machines relied on solar energy.

Nevertheless, the machines still crushed humanity, and this was a century in the future. Forget John Connor and laser guns, we're talking giant mechs, giant lightning cannons, huge lasers, massive nuclear planes. And we still lost. The Machines had lasers too, massive flying pyramids shooting lasers the size of small buildings. This was all shown in The Second Renaissance.

They captured humanity, absolutely crushed us, and put us into the Matrix, the absolute last word in sentient programming and simulations.

Zion only existed because the Machines needed it to. We were completely under their rule. The prophecy, Neo, and everything the humans had was just another method of control.

Sentinels are prison guards. They are not the Machine's main forces. Their main forces are giant hovering laser ships, massive spider like robots, and armies upon armies of sentinels and sentries and humanoids. Maybe they even have their own version of terminators.

A small glimpse of their main force was shown in Matrix Revolutions when Trinity and Neo got close to 01, their city. A huge armada of Titanic-sized ships came out of the ground and shot enough bombs at them to blow up a country.

So what if Skynet destroys one wave of sentinels and war forces? 01 will send another. And another. And another.

They will never stop.

Skynet is impressive, I will grant you that, but it does not match up to the power of 01, the Matrix, and the Machines. They have giant robots and hunter killer ships, but I have not seen a single Matrix machine the size of the spider keepers in the Matrix. The ones tending to the human growing fields used to be soldiers. And they were the smaller ones.

If you watch the animatrix, you will be completely awed by how the Machines dominated humanity, and would dominate Skynet. 01 is shielded from EMPS, and a full-out nuking didn't destroy it. It barely hurt the machine's forces.

01 is like the matrix. It will upgrade and update, finding new ways to survive. They are also centuries older then Skynet, giving them

a massive technical advantage.

Skynet has time travel, but this has been proven to be ineffective,

You can not change destiny, as it has been proven in the Terminator movies. They could not kill John Connor, and the humans killing Dyson did not impede the creation of Skynet. The future is set as soon as it happens. And unlike skynet, the Machines were the culminated effort of humanity to create AI after many centuries. The Machines understand emotion and feelings, unlike Skynet.

The machines will crush skynet under pure numbers, force, durability, experience and overwhelming force. It is a curb stomp.

Skynet was losing to humanity, and a small portion at that, a small Resistance. 01 went against the entire forces of humanity a century later then now, and it suffered a nuking first. And yet it still won.

Even the Sentinel, one of the lowliest of Machine forces, can still be compared to a Terminator. Granted, they are not as durable, but they can fly, have a hive mind, and can act as one giant hand/tentacle ripping apart everything in it's path, as shown the the last stand of Zion. They can fly at an outward of 100 miles per hour, have terminator strength and take multiple 30mm bullets at close range to take down, or several shots from a lightning gun. I am sure a Terminator will take damage from both, and will maybe survive it a bit better, but will still take massive damage, as evidenced in all the movies, from T1 to T4.

Skynet can manufacture incredibly powerful robots like the TX and T-1000 and T-Infinity at a tremendous rate, but that rate is not as fast as the planet-ruling Machines, and I'm pretty sure the TX will take a (sarcasm) teeeensy bit of damage if it got hit by a 8-million-volt lightning cannon. Hell, it was put down by a crashed helicopter and a small nuclear fuel cell.

Yes, Skynet was designed for war, and advances in technology extremely fast, but the Machines also did. They Machines weren't even designed for war and they still crushed humanity. They now have a huge repertoire of weapons and forces. People don't realize there is a lot more to the Machines then it was shown in the Matrix Trilogy.

In three decades after it started, Skynet used antimatter, lasers and time travel. In five decades after humanity lost, the Machines created a worldwide system using billions of humans as a power source, mass-produced their machines so there were billions of them, ended almost all organic life on Earth, forced all humans underground and nuked every city.

Skynet even started to lose to humans, while there is not a word in the English language strong enough to described how the Machines utterly destroyed humanity.

People are always making fun of how un-durable the Sentinels were, but the weapons used to kill them were actually extremely powerful and advanced, EMP bombs. 30mm rounds from a mech. Lightning guns. Futuristic double rocket launchers.

30mm rounds are explosive and are used to bust tanks wide open. I'm pretty sure the rocket launchers are much, much more powerful then anything we have today. After all, this is CENTURIES in the future. The lightning guns were super-tasers, made to kill machines.

I'm pretty sure any of them can do substantial damage to a Terminator as well.

At the very least, sentinels can pick up Terminators and drop them from several kilometers up, or cut them to ribbons with their laser, which was powerful enough to slice through a future ships hull. They also have terminator-like strength, as they were shown ripping metal and parts of a ship. They also have twice as much arms as the Terminators, more then twice as long and twice as flexible. They're tentacles.

The Machines are the "big brothers" to skynet. Skynet will be destroyed, period. This is like comparing a rifle to a tank, or the Enterprise to the Death Star.

Ergo, the Machines win. Many Terminator fans will have problems with this, but the simple truth is that Skynet has neither the power nor agility to take on the unbelievably overpowered forces of 01.

Thank you for reading.

~Omnibrine