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1.Sabers
2.Force
3.All Out

Obviously Windu wins all 3 but I just want to see what others say.

Mace wins in a good fight. He'd find it hard due to Kenobi's Soresu but in the end he'd win.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
1.Sabers
2.Force
3.All Out

Obviously Windu wins all 3 but I just want to see what others say.

So you made an obvious thread just for spite?
I'm going back to the Depa thread...

Windu.

Not even the defense of a form III master(Kenobi) can hold up to the strikes of a form VII master(Windu.)

Speed - Mace
Strength - Mace
Skill - Mace
Intelligence - Mace
Force Power - Mace
Force Mastery - Mace
Situational Advantage - Mace

Gee, this is a tough one.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Speed - Mace
Strength - Mace
Skill - Mace
Intelligence - Mace
Force Power - Mace
Force Mastery - Mace
Situational Advantage - Mace

Gee, this is a tough one.

I'd say Skill is a split. And I'd definitely give both Intelligence and Situational Advantage to Kenobi. But I agree with the rest.

Well, Mace's clarity in the force was supposed to be second only to Yoda, and he's an a lot more experienced council member. And situational advantage goes to Mace, considering that his main form is directly the perfect form for tearing apart Soresu defenses.

And as for skill, Mace could go toe-to-toe with Sidious, and that takes some serious bladework, as Sidious's style is precise and unrelenting, as well as extremely unorthadox.

1) Mace
2) Mace
3) Mace

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well, Mace's clarity in the force was supposed to be second only to Yoda, and he's an a lot more experienced council member. And situational advantage goes to Mace, considering that his main form is directly the perfect form for tearing apart Soresu defenses.

And as for skill, Mace could go toe-to-toe with Sidious, and that takes some serious bladework, as Sidious's style is precise and unrelenting, as well as extremely unorthadox.

Not sure where your getting the "clarity in the force" thing from. If it was all about experience then Plo Koon, Ki-Adi Mundi, Adi-Gallia would all be far superior to Kenobi.

The entire Council agrees that Kenobi is the most cunning Master on the Council.

Right. By situational advantage I thought you meant taking advantage of whatever environment they fight in which would probably be Obi-Wan.

I'd say in terms of pure saber skill Kenobi is on par with Mace and even Sidious. But of course Mace and Sidious are stronger and more powerful.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'd say in terms of pure saber skill Kenobi is on par with Mace and even Sidious. Gillard(and Lucas) would disagree with you, I think.

They might disagree on one hand.. but on another they might agree... Afteralll Kenobi is a 8.. not far below a 9 and they had Kenobi defeat a 9. So, while you could be right.. they might also agree with Darth. Anyways, I think Kenobi could last a good amount of time with Mace in pure sabers and maybe even defeat him sometimes... say 3or4/10 but yes overalll Mace would win a dominate majority in all out or force powers.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not sure where your getting the "clarity in the force" thing from. If it was all about experience then Plo Koon, Ki-Adi Mundi, Adi-Gallia would all be far superior to Kenobi.

The entire Council agrees that Kenobi is the most cunning Master on the Council.

Right. By situational advantage I thought you meant taking advantage of whatever environment they fight in which would probably be Obi-Wan.

I'd say in terms of pure saber skill Kenobi is on par with Mace and even Sidious. But of course Mace and Sidious are stronger and more powerful.

1. It was a wookipedia quote, so the clarity in the force thing may not be reliable. And rememberer, we're talking about experience, not all out. In experience, Mundi may BE the superior.

2. Kenobi notes that Shaak Ti is the most cunning. Your point?

3. Good point.

4. He's an 8, Mace/SIDS are 9s. They're reasonably superior.

except that Kenobi already beat a 9... See where that could lead?

In a circumstancial fight, yeah.

Originally posted by Galan007
Gillard(and Lucas) would disagree with you, I think.

The rankings (if that's what your referring to) was overall prowess as a sword fighter. Anakin was a 9 and Kenobi an 8, even though they were equally "skilled."

In fact Gillard even says an 8 can jump up to a 9 by embracing the dark side. So it's clear the difference is in power not skill.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
1. It was a wookipedia quote, so the clarity in the force thing may not be reliable. And rememberer, we're talking about experience, not all out. In experience, Mundi may BE the superior.

2. Kenobi notes that Shaak Ti is the most cunning. Your point?

3. Good point.

4. He's an 8, Mace/SIDS are 9s. They're reasonably superior.

1. Well in that case I don't think "more" experience amounts to much.

2. That's 1 humble opinion. Kenobi had the opinion of the whole council.

4. See above.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Afteralll Kenobi is a 8.. not far below a 9 and they had Kenobi defeat a 9. Per Gillard, the difference between a level 8 and a level 9 is "enormous"--- and clearly there was not an "enormous" difference between Anakin and Kenobi when they battled on Mustafar. If there was a difference, it was marginal at best.

That said, the only logical conclusions are:
a.) Anakin's swordsmanship regressed by the time he fought Kenobi, because all of the guilt/conflict/remorse/doubt he was experiencing(per Lucas) was catching up to him.
-Or-
b.) Kenobi's skills somehow massively increased by the end of the film.
-Or-
c.) The 'levels' concept is a load of crap that Gillard didn't put much thought into.

Imho, 'option c' seems like the most logical choice. srug

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In fact Gillard even says an 8 can jump up to a 9 by embracing the dark side. So it's clear the difference is in power not skill. Know what's funny about that? Anakin and Kenobi's force powers were identical on Mustafar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DDSDPZN8zk

So unless Anakin's powers were vastly inferior to Kenobi's prior to turning to the dark side(which was certainly not the case), then his powers weren't really amplified at all upon converting to a Sith. If anything, they regressed.

Originally posted by Galan007
Per Gillard, the difference between a level 8 and a level 9 is "enormous"--- and clearly there was not an "enormous" difference between Anakin and Kenobi when they battled on Mustafar. If there was a difference, it was marginal at best.

That said, the only logical conclusions are:
a.) Anakin's swordsmanship regressed by the time he fought Kenobi, because all of the guilt/conflict/remorse/doubt he was experiencing(per Lucas) was catching up to him.
-Or-
b.) Kenobi's skills somehow massively increased by the end of the film.
-Or-
c.) The 'levels' concept is a load of crap that Gillard didn't put much thought into.

Imho, 'option c' seems like the most logical choice. srug

This.

Also "option a" makes some sense. After all Anakin turned into a psycho wanting to murder his beloved wife, hardly the best mental state for him to take advantage of his prodigious dueling skills.

Originally posted by Galan007
Per Gillard, the difference between a level 8 and a level 9 is "enormous"--- and clearly there was not an "enormous" difference between Anakin and Kenobi when they battled on Mustafar. If there was a difference, it was marginal at best.

That said, the only logical conclusions are:
a.) Anakin's swordsmanship regressed by the time he fought Kenobi, because all of the guilt/conflict/remorse/doubt he was experiencing(per Lucas) was catching up to him.
-Or-
b.) Kenobi's skills somehow massively increased by the end of the film.
-Or-
c.) The 'levels' concept is a load of crap that Gillard didn't put much thought into.

Imho, 'option c' seems like the most logical choice. srug

Know what's funny about that? Anakin and Kenobi's force powers were identical on Mustafar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DDSDPZN8zk

So unless Anakin's powers were vastly inferior to Kenobi's prior to turning to the dark side(which was certainly not the case), then his powers weren't really amplified at all upon converting to a Sith. If anything, they regressed. I pretty much agree with those being the logical conclusions and I would a D) Kenobi knew Anakin that well and exploited his mentality and being one of, if not the most cunning masters made up any marginal gap in skill. I personally believe Kenobi did increase his skill and kinda think a little of each could be true of your conclusion.. Who knows I guess.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
This.

Also "option a" makes some sense. After all Anakin turned into a psycho wanting to murder his beloved wife, hardly the best mental state for him to take advantage of his prodigious dueling skills. As we know.. I do diagree tha Anakin was hugely effected by his mental state.. if anything al lthe rage he had used to empower him. Could his mentality also negatively effect him along with the positive effects he got.. Sure, there is some truth to that being plausible. I just happen to believe it wasn't significant if so.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
This.

Also "option a" makes some sense. After all Anakin turned into a psycho wanting to murder his beloved wife, hardly the best mental state for him to take advantage of his prodigious dueling skills.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I pretty much agree with those being the logical conclusions and I would a D) Kenobi knew Anakin that well and exploited his mentality and being one of, if not the most cunning masters made up any marginal gap in skill. I personally believe Kenobi did increase his skill and kinda think a little of each could be true of your conclusion.. Who knows I guess. Tbh, I think Gillard simply jumped the gun when he ranked Anakin and Kenobi. Had he given it some thought, he surely would have realized that, given their battle on Mustafar, Anakin/Vader was not an "enormously" better duelist than Kenobi, and would have re-ranked them accordingly.

My opinion: At the beginning of the film, Anakin was easily a level 9 swordsman on par with Yoda and Palpatine(quite possibly superior to either of them, given how effortlessly he slew Dooku.) By the end of the film, however, the extreme/nigh-debilitating emotions he was experiencing from all the evil things he'd done caught up with him, and hindered his skills as a whole.

Originally posted by Galan007


Tbh, I think Gillard simply jumped the gun when he ranked Anakin and Kenobi. Had he given it some thought, he surely would have realized that, given their battle on Mustafar, Anakin/Vader was not an "enormously" better duelist than Kenobi, and would have re-ranked them accordingly.

My opinion: At the beginning of the film, Anakin was easily a level 9 swordsman on par with Yoda and Palpatine(quite possibly superior to either of them, given how effortlessly he slew Dooku.) By the end of the film, however, the extreme/nigh-debilitating emotions he was experiencing from all the evil things he'd done caught up with him, and hindered his skills as a whole.

I agree with your first sentence but would only add that no matter how you view his rankings the difference between a 8 and 9 can NEVER be enormous unless you're using some ass backwards rating system. Inheriently 8 and 9 aren't far apart.

We've gone over this part before and I would just add that Dooku was no longer in his prime by this point. He had expended vital energy via narration fighting both Kenobi and Anakin. Thus he didn't have much reserves by this point. Anakin style is tailor-made to overwhelm Dooku's. Lastly, I believe the novel or I've seen someplace it mentioned that Dooku underestimated Anakin. I think those are also factors on why he was able to win and win easy. Just my thoughts though.

Originally posted by Galan007


Tbh, I think Gillard simply jumped the gun when he ranked Anakin and Kenobi. Had he given it some thought, he surely would have realized that, given their battle on Mustafar, Anakin/Vader was not an "enormously" better duelist than Kenobi, and would have re-ranked them accordingly.



Or he was just exaggerating when he said "enormous." But you can't say he didn't give the fight much thought. He choreographed the whole thing.

Also Gillard says in the Making of ROTS that he calls the Anakin vs Obi-Wan fight "toe to toe," because "they can't get past each other's defenses."

So even though he says Skywalker is the more powerful swordsman, he does recognize there's still a level of parity when Skywalker and Kenobi face each other.

Originally posted by Galan007

Know what's funny about that? Anakin and Kenobi's force powers were identical on Mustafar:


They staelmated a force push. I don't know if that alone means their force powers are identical.

Skywalker's always shown greater power int he force. From tanking Count Dooku's force attacks in TCW whilst Kenobi gets embarrasingly owned by Dooku's force attack in ROTS.

Then there's Force Choking Ventress in "The Wrong Jedi", just plain out Force owning her in the comic book "Clone Wars Volume 6 Dreadnaughts of Rendilli ". And finally levitating that huge Temple statue (after he turned to the Dark Side). Kenobi's never shown that kind of Force TK power.

So I'm not going to ignore all that, and assume their force powers to be equal because they force repulsed each other once.

That doesn't make their Force powers identical. If not Force explosion, Anakin would overpower him.

^ I agree. Same thing happened to Luminara and Ventress when they force pushed each other but I doubt their Force Powers are also exactly the same.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I agree with your first sentence but would only add that no matter how you view his rankings the difference between a 8 and 9 can NEVER be enormous unless you're using some ass backwards rating system. Inheriently 8 and 9 aren't far apart. I'm just telling you what Gillard said. Per him, the difference between a level 8 and 9 is "enormous."

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
We've gone over this part before and I would just add that Dooku was no longer in his prime by this point. He had expended vital energy via narration fighting both Kenobi and Anakin. Thus he didn't have much reserves by this point. Anakin style is tailor-made to overwhelm Dooku's. Lastly, I believe the novel or I've seen someplace it mentioned that Dooku underestimated Anakin. I think those are also factors on why he was able to win and win easy. Just my thoughts though. I've debunked this myth a few times. Dooku didn't start to weaken until Anakin tapped his Christ power and began attacking him with "the unstoppable power of a meteor strike." Each time Kenobi entered the fray, he was handled by Dooku effortlessly--- ie. he didn't help Anakin defeat Dooku whatsoever.

I can post the entire battle, if need be.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Or he was just exaggerating when he said "enormous." But you can't say he didn't give the fight much thought. He choreographed the whole thing. I never said Gillard didn't give the fight much thought. I said he didn't give the levels concept much thought. Again: he placed Vader as a level 9 and Kenobi as a level 8, and then went on to say there is an "enormous" difference between a level 8 and 9. Clearly there was not an "enormous" difference between Vader and Kenobi. That's all I'm saying.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
They staelmated a force push. I don't know if that alone means their force powers are identical. It means their raw TK was relatively equal. If Vader's TK would have been that much greater, Kenobi would have been flung across the room with little effort-- but that wasn't the case at all.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Skywalker's always shown greater power int he force. Anakin has shown greater force power. Vader has not.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
From tanking Count Dooku's force attacks in TCW whilst Kenobi gets embarrasingly owned by Dooku's force attack in ROTS. That was Anakin, not Vader.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And finally levitating that huge Temple statue (after he turned to the Dark Side). Kenobi's never shown that kind of Force TK power. Anakin could also use force lightning in the game, iirc. Maybe that isn't the most accurate source to go by.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So I'm not going to ignore all that, and assume their force powers to be equal because they force repulsed each other once. You don't need to ignore anything. You need to realize that Anakin and Vader are, essentially, two different characters. One was a calm/cool/collected force-god. The other was a mindphucked trainwreck, riddled with doubt/conflict/remorse/guilt.

Originally posted by Arhael
That doesn't make their Force powers identical. If not Force explosion, Anakin would overpower him. Based on what, exactly, could Vader have overpowered Kenobi with his alleged superior TK..?

Originally posted by Galan007
Based on what, exactly, could Vader have overpowered Kenobi with his alleged superior TK..?
Based on being far more powerful.

As Anakin, sure. As Vader, no way in hell. It's clear his emotions hindered him greatly on Mustafar--- hence the one TK attack he used being equal to Kenobi's.

Originally posted by Galan007
As Anakin, sure. As Vader, no way in hell. It's clear his emotions hindered him greatly on Mustafar.
No, his emotions empowered him greatly. Level 9 combat prowess and intensive training by actors to be able to demonstrate such performance, remember?

Being more powerful doesn't mean that character can simply overpower others. Skill is much more important factor. Dooku had skill to stomp Kenobi, Anakin didn't, simple as that.

Originally posted by Arhael
No, his emotions empowered him greatly. Level 9 combat prowess and intensive training by actors to be able to demonstrate such performance, remember? You and I have already gone rounds over the levels nonsense. Still not buying the notion that Anakin was an "enormously" better duelist--- nor will I buy-off on your opinion that Anakin wasn't being hindered by the guilt, remorse, doubt, and conflict that Lucas explicitly stated he was feeling. Never will.

...But that's neither here nor there.

Originally posted by Arhael
Being more powerful doesn't mean that character can simply overpower others. Skill is much more important factor. Dooku had skill to stomp Kenobi, Anakin didn't, simple as that. So Anakin was potentially more powerful with the force, but never reached that potential by the time of their duel on Mustafar--- hence his TK attack being equal to Kenobi's...?

Sure, I can buy that. All I'm saying is that his force power certainly didn't come off as more powerful then.

Originally posted by Galan007
You and I have already gone rounds over the levels nonsense. Still not buying the notion that Anakin was an "enormously" better duelist--- nor will I buy-off on your opinion that Anakin wasn't being hindered by the guilt, remorse, doubt, and conflict that Lucas explicitly stated he was feeling. Never will.

...But that's neither here nor there.

Levels is not nonsense, it is evaluation of combat prowess. Nowhere it says that Anakin is enormously better duelist. It says that the difference is enormous. And this difference is clearly seen between how Anakin fights against Dooku and later against Kenobi. Anakin, when fighting Dooku was slow and clumsy. Against Kenobi he fought literally twice faster and technical level was far more advanced. Just re-watch fight scenes and look at how slow Anakin and Dooku are comparing to Vader and Kenobi.


Look. Greater power allows Force users to reach deeper concentration. As example Dorsk 81 by tapping into reserves of other Jedi and prolong concentration managed to send 14 star destroyers out of orbit. He couldn't achieve such focus straight away, it took him a long time.
Focus during channeling progressively increases until limit is reached.

At some point Kenobi would reach his limit but Anakin would continue drawing on Force heavier and heavier. Anakin's potential would allow him to reach deeper concentration without getting exhausted.

Originally posted by Galan007


Anakin could also use force lightning in the game, iirc. Maybe that isn't the most accurate source to go by.



But wasn't the Force Lightning only shown during gameplay? Gameplay moves/powers are not canon.

Originally posted by Galan007
hence the one TK attack he used being equal to Kenobi's.

Well according to the script it wasn't actually an attack. Kenobi attacked and Skywalker blocked.

According to the novel however Skywalker does force slam Kenobi against the wall at one point.

Originally posted by Arhael
Levels is not nonsense, it is evaluation of combat prowess. As the levels concept pertains to Kenobi and Vader, it is absolutely nonsense. There was not an enormous difference between them on Mustafar. Simple.

Originally posted by Arhael
At some point Kenobi would reach his limit but Anakin would continue drawing on Force heavier and heavier. Anakin's potential would allow him to reach deeper concentration without getting exhausted. Anakin could have, sure. Vader, though? There is no proof of that. He was experiencing so much confliction/guilt/remorse/doubt by that point(per Lucas), that deep concentration was likely beyond him.

Again: Anakin and Vader possessed 2 completely different sets of emotions. All other variables being equal, a calm/cool/collected force user(Anakin)>>a doubtful/guilty/conflicted force user(Vader). All day, every day.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But wasn't the Force Lightning only shown during gameplay? Gameplay moves/powers are not canon. Don't remember, tbh. Wasn't being serious either way.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well according to the script it wasn't actually an attack. Kenobi attacked and Skywalker blocked.

According to the novel however Skywalker does force slam Kenobi against the wall at one point. Yoda slammed Palpatine against a wall via TK-- that doesn't mean his powers were superior.

My only point is that the one time Vader and Kenobi launched simultaneous TK assaults, they were equal. No ground was given until they experienced a backlash which threw them both against the walls. Had Anakin's TK been superior -even slightly- he would have been shown to have some sort of advantage.

Could he have tapped into his pool of Christ power and overcame Kenobi? It's possible, I guess. Although considering the emotions Anakin was experiencing during that battle, it's unlikely imo. After all, he was given enough time to tap -at least some of- said power when they were locked in that TK-off, but still failed to gain any ground.

Pre-Suit Vader was obviously below his Jedi-self in swordsmanship, who's to say he wasn't below his Jedi-self in other aspects, such as TK?

Feats? OT Vader has TK feats vastly beyond those of his PT self.

Originally posted by Galan007
As the levels concept pertains to Kenobi and Vader, it is absolutely nonsense. There was not an enormous difference between them on Mustafar. Simple.

There was. When one mercilessly attacks and another gives ground barely surviving, the difference is rather obvious. If Kenobi attempted to fight offensively, he would lose like Opress to Sidious.


Anakin's dominant emotion was rage, the emotion that empowers Force users by a lot consistently throughout EU. Better saber showing than against Dooku, also, supports it. During fight Anakin had no doubts, he was attacking non-stop to the point that he didn't care that Kenobi had higher ground.

This farther proves my point:
Anakin roared and flew at him, using both the Force and his body to crash Obi-Wan back into the wall once more. His hands seized Obi-Wan's wrists with impossible strength, forcing his arms wide. "I am so sick of your lectures!"

Dark power bore down with his grip.

Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks.

Oh, he thought. Oh, this is bad.

Hampered performance and impossible strength don't go along well.

Originally posted by Arhael
There was. No, there wasn't. You are literally the only person who believes Anakin's skill was "enormously" beyond Kenobi's on Mustafar.

Originally posted by Arhael
Anakin's dominant emotion was rage, the emotion that empowers Force users by a lot consistently throughout EU. Better saber showing than against Dooku, also, supports it. During fight Anakin had no doubts, he was attacking non-stop to the point that he didn't care that Kenobi had higher ground. Yes, lets ignore the fact that Lucas himself flat-out told us Anakin was remorseful, conflicted, guilty, doubtful, etc. just before he battled Kenobi. Lets also ignore the fact that it was never so much as hinted at that those emotions weren't still present when they fought. Lets also ignore the fact that those emotions have never, in the history of the Jedi/Sith orders, done anything but hinder a force-user's abilities.

Originally posted by Arhael
This farther proves my point:
Anakin roared and flew at him, using both the Force and his body to crash Obi-Wan back into the wall once more. His hands seized Obi-Wan's wrists with impossible strength, forcing his arms wide. "I am so sick of your lectures!"

Dark power bore down with his grip.

Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks.

Oh, he thought. Oh, this is bad.

Hampered performance and impossible strength don't go along well. You provide an excerpt in which Vader uses Kung-Fu-Grip as evidence that his force power(TK) was superior to Kenobi's? Lol?

Here's my evidence to the contrary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DDSDPZN8zk

Originally posted by Galan007
No, there wasn't. You are literally the only person who believes Anakin's skill was "enormously" beyond Kenobi's on Mustafar.




Well a lot of people here feel Skywalker was the more powerful duelist.

But I think your too hooked on this "enormous" difference. He said the gap between 8 and 9 is enormous. He didn't say the gap between Skywalker and Kenobi was.

This is what he says about their fight in the Making of ROTS pg144:

"That toe-to-toe thing thing shows they can't get past each other's defenses, because they know each others moves so intimately."

The ROTS novel says pretty much the exact same thing:

Blade-to-blade they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.

So Skywalker vs Kenobi was always going to be equal in skill. But with Kenobi having to give a lot of ground to make up for Skywalker's superior strength.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well a lot of people here feel Skywalker was the more powerful duelist.

But I think your too hooked on this "enormous" difference. He said the gap between 8 and 9 is enormous. He didn't say the gap between Skywalker and Kenobi was.

This is what he says about their fight in the Making of ROTS pg144:

"That toe-to-toe thing thing shows they can't get past each other's defenses, because they know each others moves so intimately."

The ROTS novel says pretty much the exact same thing:

Blade-to-blade they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior. Gillard: "Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous."

So yes, he DID say there was an enormous difference between Anakin and Kenobi--- which is a blatantly incorrect statement. Did Vader have more raw force power at his disposal? Sure. However, he clearly did not utilize the bulk of said power against Kenobi, otherwise it would've been a complete non-fight. Furthermore, the levels concept refers exclusively to saber skills-- and as the quotes you posted above blatantly state: they were EQUAL in that area(like I've been saying the entire time.)

The circumstances likely balanced out the ''enormous'' difference.

Something happened, as there was definitely not an enormous difference between them on Mustafar.

Personally, I think Gillard simply jumped the gun and didn't put much thought into that statement before he made it. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
Something happened, as there was definitely not an enormous difference between them on Mustafar.

Personally, I think Gillard simply jumped the gun and didn't put much thought into that statement before he made it. /shrug

Eh. I think that Kenobi may very well be a level 9 given his feats in TCWs. However I do have a hard time seeing him taking down people like Mace, Sidious, or Yoda. But the thing is that Level 9s like Dooku, Mace, Sidious, and Yoda repeatedly show dominance over people like Skywalker and Kenobi. Until the Clone Wars where we have Skywaker fighting on par with Dooku throughout the Clone Wars, and Kenobi taking on Savage and Maul, one of whom should be a level 8 the other a solid 6 or 7.

It could be argued the levels have been retconned.

Originally posted by Galan007


Personally, I think Gillard simply jumped the gun and didn't put much thought into that statement before he made it. /shrug

Yeah I'm saying don't put so much emphasis on that one word "enormous." It was likely just an overstatement. Especially considering he's said both Kenobi and Skywalker can't get past each other's defenses.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
It could be argued the levels have been retconned.



I've been saying this for a while. That new canon material should take precedence over 8 year old quotes, even Lucas's own quotes. Seen as he's in charge of TCW and is known to constantly contradict his older quotes/material.

For instance saying only Mace or Yoda can compete with the Emperor was obviously retconned as soon as Skywalker overpowered the Son and Daughter. It can be argued that was a one off, but Lucas never said anything about "consistent" showings in his quote.

And guess who came up with the Mortis story idea? Yep, it was Lucas.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Until the Clone Wars where we have Skywaker fighting on par with Dooku throughout the Clone Wars, and Kenobi taking on Savage and Maul, one of whom should be a level 8 the other a solid 6 or 7.

Yeah Maul and Opress should be a solid 8 and 7 respectively. Kenobi's prowess likely has been retconned after the episode "Revival." Just like Vader's speed/saber prowess seems to have been retconned after new material like RODV and TFU.

He can overpower those two that can hold down Abeloth with whom Luke struggles with?

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
He can overpower those two that can hold down Abeloth with whom Luke struggles with?

Well he's done it once. But then later in the same arc got easily overpowered by the Son alone.

I always assumed he went into Zone mode like when he slaughtered Dooku in RotS?

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
I always assumed he went into Zone mode like when he slaughtered Dooku in RotS?

Im not sure if it was the same thing. But if it was then ZonAkin is basically >>> everyone else in the mythos.

So is Zone Anakin=Anakin's potential possible?

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm just telling you what Gillard said. Per him, the difference between a level 8 and 9 is "enormous."

I've debunked this myth a few times. Dooku didn't start to weaken until Anakin tapped his Christ power and began attacking him with "the unstoppable power of a meteor strike." Each time Kenobi entered the fray, he was handled by Dooku effortlessly--- ie. he didn't help Anakin defeat Dooku whatsoever.

I can post the entire battle, if need be.

I agree it's not enormous so I'm not sure what else there is to say on that matter.

If you would like to post the entire fight.. go ahead. In reading the novel it says Dooku replenished himself with the force before he started dueling Anakin. However, he had to do so because fighting BOTH of them taxed him. Thus, even though he replenished before fighting Anakin.. he wouldn't have the force reserves he could've had he not have to take them both on before. Again, Dooku while gaining some power via the DS... we must also remember wasn't in his prime anymore. He was older than Kenobi in ANH. So he wasn't a spring chicken anymore. I also believe Nick said...Dooku underestimated Anakin which is another factor.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah I'm saying don't put so much emphasis on that one word "enormous." It was likely just an overstatement. Especially considering he's said both Kenobi and Skywalker can't get past each other's defenses. I agree 100% that it was a drastic overstatement. Like you mentioned, multiple other sources confirm that they were equal.

I've been ove rthis Anakin was a emotional mess before and I just don't buy it.. There is too much that leads to the opposite opinion. The only emotion I saw Anakin showing was Rage when he was confronted by Kenobi. It just takes common sense to see that.. as well and paying attention to his words and actions. All of it point towards him being fueled by anger.. and as we've seen in the mythos.. Anger can lead one to become even more powerful and dangerous. Kenobi IMO beat the most powerful version of Anakin ever seen.

Also, I believe Kenobi was about a level 9 by ROTS... If not a 9 a elite top of the tier 8. However, being able to fight off Maul and Opress and not let a SINGLE strike hit him... is the work of somebody who improved a lot during the Clone Wars.. and I believe that improvement only continued during the ROTS period.

Anakin wasn't able to harness the rage, the rage was harnessing him, making him a mess.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Anakin wasn't able to harness the rage, the rage was harnessing him, making him a mess. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Anakin wasn't able to harness the rage, the rage was harnessing him, making him a mess.

Please cite the narration in the movie or novel that makes his rage work against him and not enhance him as it's almost always shown to do.

The rage didn't work against him during his battle with maul. In fact, the rage he felt when he saw his master killed is exactly what had Maul on the defensive for the start of their battle. The same rage that put Vader on the defensive when Luke go enraged. The emotions that Mace used against Sidious.. he was many things including angry when he realized that he was the last hope of the republic when he fought against Sids. Maul got a rage boost against Sids... THere are a number of examples of this.

Don't even count the Maul vs Sidious fight pre-TPM. Maul was already weakened so much that he was going to get stronger no matter what.

''The battle wore on, and for a time it was fought evenly. But Darth Maul was the stronger of the two and was driven by a frenzy that surpassed even the frantic determination that fueled Obi-Wan. Eventually, the Sith Lord began to wear the young Jedi down. Bit by bit, he pressed him back, carrying the attack to him, looking to catch him off guard. Obi-Wan could sense his body weakening, and his fear of what it would mean if he, too, were to fall, began to grow.''

What are you talking about? Kenobi got an initial rage boost when he went solo on maul. Maul eventually weathered the storm and started to take control.. but that doesn't change the boost Kenobi initially got.. nor does it change all the other situations where this has occured.

He couldn't control the rage boost he got, just like Anakin. Yes, Kenobi got enhanced for a while. But the same power fueled Maul, making him more powerful as well.

WHO CARES.. you wanted examples of rage boosts and I gave them to you.. numerous examples through the mythos shows a boost in rage can and has meant a boost in performance.. ESPECIALLY for Sith. Point is, Anakin wasn't weaker when battling Kenobi.. in fact he was stronger and more deadly.

You gave no good examples.

1) Vader held back unless you actually think enraged RotJ Luke > RotJ Vader

2) In Mace's case he was able to harness the rage since that is the point of the superconducting loop/Vaapad.

3) It made him weaker. Anakin as of CW has put Dooku on his ass twice (albeit very even fights). That's better than Obi-Wan slicing defending himself from the brothers.

Then there are two quotes stating he is arguably the most powerful Jedi as of RotS. Better than

B.S. all the examples I gave are clear aod concise on the matter. Even sids says numerous times.. once Anakin gives into his rage and fear.. he'll become more powerful than any sith or Jedi. He says this numerous times. That is EXACTLY what he did and we saw and enraged Anakin attacking Kenobi full force. Not a depressed...guilt ridden one that people are claiming. There was NO sign of that when Kenobi arrived. All that we did see wwa an angry.. arrogant.. hungry for powre and domination Anakin. not some sniffing cry baby like people are making out.

It doesn't matter if Vader was holding back.. he was holding back the entire fight yet STILL winning. When Luke got his rage boost he turned the fight and dominated. PERIOD. Kenobi was geting the better of maul thanks to the rage boost. Mace got stronger thanks to the rage boost. Shit it was even shown what Yoda could do if he gave into rage.. fear... and turned to a sith.. Rage, more times than not, has been shown to increase performance of both Jedi and especially Sith. Shit Bane has done that very thing numerous times. Maul showed that against Sidious when he got his rage boost.. Savage as well. There are so many examples it's ming boggling you're arguing that rage does nothing but mess a perosn up mentally. :facepalm:

Really?

''Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the more afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn; like the proverbial Corellian multipede, now that he had started thinking about what he was doing, he could no longer walk.''

That was your counter? Really? Concession accepted then

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That was your counter? Really? Concession accepted then

His quote shows that if Skywalker's attention shifts to controlling his emotions then his performance will be hindered.

which is nothing of what I'm claiming and means nothing. Sith Anakin that fought Kenobi WASN'T trying to control his emotions.... neither were any of the examples I gave with angery making them stronger... So his examples was utterly useless.. but what I would expect from him.

Regardless, Windu bro rapes Kenobi.

Not controlling his emotions?! A simple taunt was all that was required by Dooku. You don't think that choking his own wife, slaughtering younglings, watching as Mace flew out the window?!

''He would not mourn for the lives he had taken. But for the loss of his former self, the boy who had dreamed of becoming a Jedi, he was unable to hold back the tears that streamed down his cheeks.''

Hell, he wasn't even able to sense Kenobi because of his rage;

''Despite his powers and years of attunement to Obi-Wan, his rage had blocked his ability to sense his former Master's presence on Mustafar until he saw the Jedi standing in the hatch of Padme's star ship.''

There. Two sources showing he had a hard time dealing with emotions and that it hindered him.

Come back when you find a source that says the opposite.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Regardless, Windu bro rapes Kenobi.
Give Kenobi more credit. It won't be a stomp.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Not controlling his emotions?! A simple taunt was all that was required by Dooku. You don't think that choking his own wife, slaughtering younglings, watching as Mace flew out the window?!

''He would not mourn for the lives he had taken. But for the loss of his former self, the boy who had dreamed of becoming a Jedi, he was unable to hold back the tears that streamed down his cheeks.''

Hell, he wasn't even able to sense Kenobi because of his rage;

''Despite his powers and years of attunement to Obi-Wan, his rage had blocked his ability to sense his former Master's presence on Mustafar until he saw the Jedi standing in the hatch of Padme's star ship.''

There. Two sources showing he had a hard time dealing with emotions and that it hindered him.

Come back when you find a source that says the opposite.

Where are those 2 sources from?

Originally posted by Vensai
Give Kenobi more credit. It won't be a stomp.

Kenobi would give him hell in a pure sword fight, but in an all out I'm sure it won't be too difficult for Mace to own him via TK.

The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader, a novel showing the movies from Anakin's point of view.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_Darth_Vader

Originally posted by Galan007
No, there wasn't. You are literally the only person who believes Anakin's skill was "enormously" beyond Kenobi's on Mustafar.
Not skill, combat prowess. Kenobi was able to survive by constantly giving ground. Had he fought offensively or got cornered, Anakin would have made short work of him.



Emotions you mentioned make character hesitate and be unwilling to fight. Anakin on opposite wanted to kill Kenobi and tried his hardest.

The fight and narration showed that during fight rage was the dominant emotion. If you think there was other emotions during actual fight, that's for you to prove.


It is evidence that he was tremendously empowered. "Impossible strength" requires heavy drawing on the Force. If his performance was hindered, he wouldn't have that strength. Add to the fact that Kenobi could counter strength of Maul and Opress simultaneously, so Anakin nearly breaking his wrists is truly big feat.

In any case you want TK example? Here it is:
A roar of the Force blasted Obi-Wan back into a wall, smashing breath from his lungs, leaving him swaying, half stunned. Anakin stepped over bodies and lifted his blade for the kill.


LOL


Nice one.

This thread is about Windu and I can give good reason why Windu would win Kenobi in the same RotS scenario.

In Anakin's showings I noticed one consistency. Whenever he gets angry, he turns his sole focus on opponent disregarding surroundings and simply keeps attacking in straight line.

In one encounter with Dooku, when 4 magnaguards were attacking him, Dooku turned his back. This taunt was enough for Anakin do disregard those droids and try to strike Dooku down. Wise combatant would try to destroy droids first or retreat.

In next encounter Dooku was throwing objects at him. Anakin didn't even try to counter it with his own TK or simply dodge, he just tanked everything.

In RotS Anakin ran at Kenobi even without lightsaber. First time it worked and he disarmed Kenobi, second - he got kick in the face and nearly lost the fight early on.

So basically angry Anakin gains combat prowess but doesn't try to outwit opponent at all.

Windu would pay attention to surroundings and corner Kenobi. And with no space to retreat Kenobi wouldn't last long. And, if there is situation, when Kenobi has higher ground, obviously, Windu would find safer way to level it up.

Kenobi succeed against Anakin because he let go, he had the intention of killing Anakin unlike Jedi normally do.

Originally posted by Galan007


Yet another example that doesn't prove your point. We already knew Anakin/Vader could force push. That quote, however, says nothing of Vader's ability to outdo Kenobi in a force vs. force scenario. Hell, if Vader weren't attempting to defend, Kenobi could bash him against a wall with the force as well.



In that case how do we know Dooku > Kenobi with the Force? Let's face it Kenobi never countered Dooku's TK attacks with the Force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In that case how do we know Dooku > Kenobi with the Force? Let's face it Kenobi never countered Dooku's TK attacks with the Force. Has Kenobi ever tried to use the force against Dooku? Either way, that's not the point he's making. The film itself already provided us with a scene where Anakin and Obi-Wan use their TK against one another at the same time, and it was identical. No advantage was shown, and they both experienced an equal amount of recoil from the attempt.

I'm sure Anakin had more raw energy reserves then Obi-Wan, but in that scene their TK definitely appeared equal.

Dooku has far better force feats than Kenobi though.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Dooku has far better force feats than Kenobi though.

So does Skywalker.

^ Again: Anakin has better force-feats, Vader does not.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Again: Anakin has better force-feats, Vader does not.

Temple Statue remember?

Where does gameplay rank in canonicity? Compared to the novel for example?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Temple Statue remember? Has Kenobi ever tried, and failed, to lift something of that size? I do not recall any such instances. That being said, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

For example, we've never seen Cin Drallig use the force to lift something of comparable size to that statue. However, that didn't stop him from soaking Vader's TK attack, before using his own TK to throw him out of a window:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfW4vK-Fu1A
(3:15)

Same coin, while Kenobi has apparently never had the need to lift an object of that size, it didn't stop him from matching Vader's TK when they fought:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DDSDPZN8zk

Originally posted by Galan007
Has Kenobi ever tried, and failed, to lift something of that size? I do not recall any such instances. That being said, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

For example, we've never seen Cin Drallig use the force to lift something of comparable size to that statue. However, that didn't stop him from soaking Vader's TK attack, before using his own TK to throw him out of a window:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfW4vK-Fu1A
(3:15)

Same coin, while Kenobi has apparently never had the need to lift an object of that size, it didn't stop him from matching Vader's TK when they fought:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DDSDPZN8zk

Yeah the idea that lack of feats don't necessarily mean a person can't do those feats is fine.

But then by that logic Dooku's superior feats would also be moot. As we've never seen Kenobi attempt to lift Multiple Stone Pillars, or attempt to Force Choke Dooku e.t.c.

I personally think Kenobi's really not got an excuse for a lack of feats given the amount of exposure he's had.

Whilst Cin Drallig has hardly been seen at all in Canon so we would have only a very small idea of what he's capable of.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah the idea that lack of feats don't necessarily mean a person can't do those feats is fine.

But then by that logic Dooku's superior feats would also be moot. As we've never seen Kenobi attempt to lift Multiple Stone Pillars, or attempt to Force Choke Dooku e.t.c. The part you're apparently not understanding is that Kenobi has done absolutely nothing which suggests that he is remotely comparable to Dooku with the force. Conversely, Kenobi has preformed a feat which heavily suggests that he was on par with Vader in the force.

See the difference?

I will just remind people.. Anakin's ACTIONS and WORDS were not one of somebody conflicted or upset or remorseful.. Those emotions being dominate would look like

1. Anakin admitting he messed up.. especially with his love there. Even if not admitting he messed up.. Showign SOME sign of being sad.. head down.. sad.. expressing regret.. SOMETHING.. He did NON of that.

2. He wouldn't have choked and almost killed the love of his life if his dominate emotions were sadness, regret, guilt etc etc. Instead that is EXACTLY what he did.. further proving those were the furthest thing from his mind

3. He wouldn't have attacked his former master and father figure with such agression and anger with NO sign of regret or remorse or guilt if those were dominate emotions

Instead of showing these emotions he was supposedly overwhelmed by... he showed the exact opposite... "My empire" "If you're not with me you're against me" "You under estimate my power" "I'm sick of your lectures" No indication of anything other than a lust for power and anger.. like literally NOTHING besides those things when Kenobi showed up. It's beyond clear that whatever guilt he was feeling.. was pretty much all gone by the time Kenobi showed up and he had accepted who he had become.

Originally posted by Galan007
The part you're apparently not understanding is that Kenobi has done absolutely nothing which suggests that he is remotely comparable to Dooku with the force. Conversely, Kenobi has preformed a feat which heavily suggests that he was on par with Vader in the force.

See the difference?

I understand that. I just think it was a one-off. End of the day if Kenobi was equally as powerful in Force Power, then why was he being "Forced Backwards" like the script says?

That seems to me to suggest Skywalker was more powerful. That and when you read the novel it's clear Skywalker was more powerful.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I understand that. I just think it was a one-off. End of the day if Kenobi was equally as powerful in Force Power, then why was he being "Forced Backwards" like the script says? Kenobi was 'forced back' because he uses a very passive form of combat, while Anakin uses a very aggressive form of combat. Furthermore, that statement was made before Kenobi stopped holding back. I'd also like to add that the ability to force an opponent back in a saber match doesn't mean much in the way of superiority-- Palpatine, for example, was able to "force the mighty Windu back" during the initial phase of their duel, yet was still "overpowered" by Mace in the end. /shrug

Regardless, it still doesn't change what we saw happen on screen-- the TK attacks of Vader and Kenobi were equal.

With responses a week apart, don't expect me to keep much interest in this(tbh, I'd completely forgotten about it.)

Originally posted by Arhael
if you want to elevate Kenobi to level 9, I am fine with it too, after all he outskilled brothers. That'd certainly make a LOT more sense than assuming an "enormous" difference existed between them on Mustafar.

Originally posted by Arhael
It's a matter of what character thinks during the fight. He had remorse of his actions, yet, it wasn't what he was thinking about during the fight. Hatred for Kenobi was all he had on his mind. That's for you to prove, if Anakin had any sence of guilt/conflict/remorse/guilt during the fight or that his performance was hampered in any way.Lucas himself stated that Anakin was feeling extremely guilty/remorseful/conflicted/doubtful/etc. not long before he and Kenobi fought. So the burden of proof falls entirely on you to prove those emotions simply... Went away during their battle on Mustafar.

Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt that the predominate emotion during said battle was anger. That, however, doesn't change the fact that the other emotions were still present within Anakin on some level-- and those emotions do nothing but hinder a force-user.

Originally posted by Arhael
Everything implies that Anakin had huge power boost:
Anakin forced him back and back, slamming his blade down with strength that seemed to flow from the volcano overhead. He spun and whirled and sliced razor-sharp shards of steel from the wall and shot them at Obi-Wan with the full heat of his fury.A huge power boost? Lol, give me a break. Several of the quotes made during Anakin's fight with Dooku are much, MUCH better than being compared to a volcano. none

Originally posted by Arhael
No, I don't act like he wasn't empowered before becoming Vader, otherwise he wouldn't beat Dooku on two occasions.
Example you provided shows that Anakin was empowered by rage but he still was restraining himself, trying to control his emotions. Darkside Anakin does not try to control his rage, he dropped his restraints entirely, taking full advantage of his fury.Yes, and per Lucas he was also feeling guilty/remorseful/conflicted/doubtful/etc.

Emotions like those don't just go away. Heck, Vader felt those emotions until the day he died.

Originally posted by Arhael
Ok, then Dooku Force handling Kenobi can also be dismissed, since Kenobi did not attempt to resist. And indeed, that's what Dooku does, he catches opponents offguard, when they are least likely to resist. Imho Dooku wouldn't be able to overpower Kenobi in direct contest.Don't act stupid for the sake of acting stupid.

Dooku has demonstrated FAR more power/control/mastery over the force than Kenobi has. Pre-suit Vader hasn't. HUGE difference.

Originally posted by Arhael
Imho Cin Drallig demonstrated rare ability of absorbing TK, which was demonstrated only by Corran Horn and Kota, which means that Cin Dralig simply used Anakin's power against him. Or maybe he simply blocked and counter attacked, you can't be sure, when it comes to visual feats.Your opinion doesn't matter if it cannot be substantiated.

Originally posted by Arhael
And I don't get you. Cin Drallig's feat of Force pushing Anakin qualifies but Anakin pushing Kenobi against a wall doesn't? What's the difference?The difference is that before Cin force-pushed Anakin out of the window, he negated/caught/overpowered Anakin's TK attack. Had Anakin no-sold one of Kenobi's TK attacks, it'd be comparable to what Cin did.

But as it stands, the one time we saw Vader and Kenobi use simultaneous TK assaults, they were equal.

Hey Galan, could you give the source/interview/quote where GL says Anakin felt all these emotions? I believe you and agree by the way, just want to be able to prove it.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Hey Galan, could you give the source/interview/quote where GL says Anakin felt all these emotions? I believe you and agree by the way, just want to be able to prove it. The source is the Director's Commentary portion of the RotS DVD. Here are the statements from Lucas I'm referring to:

*"Anakin knows murdering a bunch of was wrong, but he won't admit it to Padme. He tries rationalizing his decisions in spite of knowing they are wrong."

*"The tear in this scene shows that Anakin knows what he's doing is wrong, but he has now committed himself to a path he may not agree with."

*"If Anakin had to turn to the dark side all over again, he probably wouldn't have."

*"There is still good in him."

Like I've said before: Anakin felt so badly about the decisions he'd made, that he was literally crying over them. Emotions that strong don't just... Go away over a short period of time. none

Awesome, thanks.

This settles it. I don't see how a fair argument for Pre-Suit Vader>Jedi Anakin can be made now.

Galan buddy.. At least you agree anger was the dominate emotion he was feeling, and he likely wasn't feeling much else besides that.

What he was feeling BEFORE that fight isn't really relevant to what he was feeling. As i said... Just because a guy kills a little innocent kid.. do you think he'll be thinking about that when if a guy attacks him in a alley with a knife or will he he fight to survive and not have that in his mind. Seems obvious he won't be thinking of that much if at all. Further, what if siad guy kills a little kid and then runs into a guy who murdered his mother or who stole his wife and he's coming to kill him. Do you honestly think he'll be thinking of the innocent kid he killed? Come on big buddy. Anakin's emotions before the fight clearly don't indicate how he was feeling at the time. His actions showed the EXACT OPOOSITE of feeling anything bug angry or power hungry...

1. He never admitted to Kenobi or padme he was wrong or made a mistake.
2. Shit, he didn't even show a gesture that he was upset.. not holding down of the head.. no shaking of the head.. NOTHING that indicated he was upset by what he did. If there was a person or time to admit it or show it.. it would be with his love or kenobi... He showed NONE of that.
3. Too make it worse he then tries to kill his love.. yet you're telling me he was feeling guilty or remorseful... Not only would've he have shown something like that.. he certainly wouldn't have tried to kill her if he was feeling the least bit of anything like that.
4. There was mention of Kenobi holding back against anakin yet not ONE mention of Anakin holding back.. NOT ONE.. You would think if he waw feeling anything other than anger.. he would feel upset or hold back from killing his brother father figure.. NO sign of that.

I think it's beyond clear he wasn't feeling much of anything. If he was, it was so slight it was insignifcant to the battle at hand.

Arguing with Arhael is a complete waste of time.

Fighting defensively is just as much of a skill as fighting offensively; they are just two completely different styles of fighting. If someones skill in defense is such that it allows him to stalemate/win an opponent whose skill is in offense, then the gap between them is not enormous. Period.

Gillard ranked them based on their skills in swordsmanship, and Kenobi's skill and style is based on defense, and he was still labeled as a level 8, which is said to be inferior to a level 9 by an enormous difference. Yet there was not an enormous difference between Anakin and Obi Wan.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Arguing with Arhael is a complete waste of time.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Galan buddy.. At least you agree anger was the dominate emotion he was feeling, and he likely wasn't feeling much else besides that.

What he was feeling BEFORE that fight isn't really relevant to what he was feeling. As i said... Just because a guy kills a little innocent kid.. do you think he'll be thinking about that when if a guy attacks him in a alley with a knife or will he he fight to survive and not have that in his mind. Seems obvious he won't be thinking of that much if at all. Further, what if siad guy kills a little kid and then runs into a guy who murdered his mother or who stole his wife and he's coming to kill him. Do you honestly think he'll be thinking of the innocent kid he killed? Come on big buddy. Anakin's emotions before the fight clearly don't indicate how he was feeling at the time. His actions showed the EXACT OPOOSITE of feeling anything bug angry or power hungry...

1. He never admitted to Kenobi or padme he was wrong or made a mistake.
2. Shit, he didn't even show a gesture that he was upset.. not holding down of the head.. no shaking of the head.. NOTHING that indicated he was upset by what he did. If there was a person or time to admit it or show it.. it would be with his love or kenobi... He showed NONE of that.
3. Too make it worse he then tries to kill his love.. yet you're telling me he was feeling guilty or remorseful... Not only would've he have shown something like that.. he certainly wouldn't have tried to kill her if he was feeling the least bit of anything like that.
4. There was mention of Kenobi holding back against anakin yet not ONE mention of Anakin holding back.. NOT ONE.. You would think if he waw feeling anything other than anger.. he would feel upset or hold back from killing his brother father figure.. NO sign of that.

I think it's beyond clear he wasn't feeling much of anything. If he was, it was so slight it was insignifcant to the battle at hand. So you're telling me that the very stong emotions of guilt/remorse/confliction/doubt that Lucas stated Anakin was experiencing a few scenes before he battled Kenobi just... Went away? Nah.

Given that we literally SAW Anakin crying on Mustafar over all the evil things he'd done, you're never going to get me to buy-off on the notion that he stopped feeling those emotions, just because he also displayed rage toward Kenobi during that battle. Fact is, Vader experienced the emotions Lucas referenced until the day he died.

Maul: "What could you hate enough to destroy me?"
Vader: "Myself."



So yeah, no sense arguing with me about this any further, because I'm not going to agree.

Fair enough, but the movie is quite clear.. he showed NO signs of anything other than Rage/Anger and lust for power when he met Kenobi. Not one sign of anything else. Could it have been there.. even a little.. sure... did it effect him in battle.. nah I saw no evidence it did so I'll go with that. However, as you said.. we're just not going to agree on this matter and that is fine.