why didn't Mace put the saber to Dooku's throat..

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KuRuPT Thanosi
and instead put it to Jango's neck.. That just makes no sense to me... Not only was Jango WAY less of a target to Mace than Dooku.. he probably didn't even know who he was. Further, it seems odd that Dooku didn't sense a MASS amount of Jedi there or even Mace... People he should've been very familiar with and sensed. To make it worse... and another thing I never got.. When Mace did have Jango by the balls.. Dooku never reacted or tried to draw his saber.. Mace could've easily struck him down.. Did you know that Mace would never try such or move?

Lastly, why was Jango even choose to be the "father" of all the clones.. is it ever expanded upon why he was choosen?

Lord Lucien
It's almost as if that movie... doesn't make any sense.

Galan007
Heh, those are some interesting plot-holes you've pointed out.

Did Mace really think that threatening to kill Jango would make Dooku be like: "OHHH NOOOEZ!! I SURRENDER!!!"? Hell, Mace could have ended the entire war right there if he would have just struck Dooku down, instead of trying to hold Jango hostage.

It is equally as hilarious that Dooku was unable to sense the presence of DOZENS of Jedi in his local vicinity. Given that most of them were fodder, there is no feasible way that all of them would've been able to mask their presence from someone as powerful as the good Count.

The reasons Jango was chosen as the Prime Host for the Clones were mentioned in Open Seasons. His combat prowess(ie. killing multiple Jedi with his bare hands) and cunning, were ultimately what prompted Dooku to choose him.

NTJack0
Because nothing in that movie made sense anyway, why didn't Mace just say screw the Jedi Master and the two love birds and just annihilate the arena from space?

Ascendancy
Originally posted by Galan007
Heh, those are some interesting plot-holes you've pointed out.

Did Mace really think that threatening to kill Jango would make Dooku be like: "OHHH NOOOEZ!! I SURRENDER!!!"? Hell, Mace could have ended the entire war right there if he would have just struck Dooku down, instead of trying to hold Jango hostage.

It is equally as hilarious that Dooku was unable to sense the presence of DOZENS of Jedi in his local vicinity. Given that most of them were fodder, there is no feasible way that all of them would've been able to mask their presence from someone as powerful as the good Count.

The reasons Jango was chosen as the Prime Host for the Clones were mentioned in Open Seasons. His combat prowess(ie. killing multiple Jedi with his bare hands) and cunning, were ultimately what prompted Dooku to choose him.

You'd think the Jedi in the temple would have sensed an entire army of Sith rolling down on them from nearby, but they didn't see it coming. A lot of things can be cloaked in the Force. Palps chilled with the Jedi on numerous occasions and yet they had no idea they were rubbing shoulders with the most powerful Sith they could have ever come up against.

Zannah walked into the Jedi Temple and did her thing as well. That's one "plot hole" that just isn't.

Galan007
Originally posted by Ascendancy
You'd think the Jedi in the temple would have sensed an entire army of Sith rolling down on them from nearby, but they didn't see it coming. A lot of things can be cloaked in the Force. Palps chilled with the Jedi on numerous occasions and yet they had no idea they were rubbing shoulders with the most powerful Sith they could have ever come up against. Yoda: "The dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see, the future is."
Mace: "Our ability to use the force has diminished."
Etc.

The Jedi couldn't sense wtf was going on, because Palpatine was using the dark side to skew their perceptions. Conversely, there is no evidence I'm aware of which states that the dozens of Jedi on Geonosis were concealing their presence from Dooku. So if that little tidbit was never addressed in canon, it is most definitely a plot-hole.

Vensai
Originally posted by Galan007
Yoda: "The dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see, the future is."
Mace: "Our ability to use the force has diminished."
Etc.

The Jedi couldn't sense wtf was going on, because Palpatine was using the dark side to skew their perceptions. Conversely, there is no evidence I'm aware of which states that the dozens of Jedi on Geonosis were concealing their presence from Dooku. So if that little tidbit was never addressed in canon, it is most definitely a plot-hole.
Maybe he knew they were there. He certainly wasn't extremely surprised (maybe Palpatine let him know beforehand). Besides, he had an army that he felt would be enough to beat 200 Jedi, and it was, even if Mace "Im OP in the micro series" Windu was there.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Surely he didn't know they were there.. if so.. why would he let one of the most dangerous Jedi masters get so close.. draw his weapon and do nothing. An army wasn't going to stop mace from killing dooku right then and there. he clearly didn't know.. not sure how that can be argued.

Galan007
He obviously didn't know.

I just find it hilarious that 200 Jedi were able to converge on Dooku at the Geonosis Arena, yet he was caught completely off-guard:
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15677529_1752469.jpg

His inability to sense that many Jedi within a few-hundred-yards of him either a.) demonstrates that Dooku's force-senses were the worst ever seen throughout SW, or b.) showcases a massive plot-hole.

Lord Lucien
I wonder which.

Galan007
^ Dooku is a weak feeb, obviously.

Q99
Originally posted by Galan007
He obviously didn't know.

I just find it hilarious that 200 Jedi were able to converge on Dooku at the Geonosis Arena, yet he was caught completely off-guard:


His inability to sense that many Jedi within a few-hundred-yards of him either a.) demonstrates that Dooku's force-senses were the worst ever seen throughout SW, or b.) showcases a massive plot-hole.

I presume that the Jedi were hiding their presence in the force/the stronger Jedi were actively working to conceal everyone.

Galan007
I suppose that I can buy-off on the notion that a handful of Jedi would be capable of concealing themselves from Dooku. However, there weren't just 'a handful' of Jedi at the arena--- there were 200. Imo, there is no way that many Jedi(most of whom were no-name fodder, mind you) were so adept at masking their presence as to go unnoticed by a force-user as powerful as Dooku.

The_Tempest
Not sure Dooku was really surprised. Sure didn't seem it.

Galan007
Dookes fearz noothing!!11!!1!!!!!1111!

The_Tempest
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c298/billyoliverfletcher/palpatine.jpg

erm

Galan007
sad

Vensai
Originally posted by Galan007
I suppose that I can buy-off on the notion that a handful of Jedi would be capable of concealing themselves from Dooku. However, there weren't just 'a handful' of Jedi at the arena--- there were 200. Imo, there is no way that many Jedi(most of whom were no-name fodder, mind you) were so adept at masking their presence as to go unnoticed by a force-user as powerful as Dooku.
Yeah, I guess Dooku never bothered to develop his senses properly.

Q99
Originally posted by Galan007
I suppose that I can buy-off on the notion that a handful of Jedi would be capable of concealing themselves from Dooku. However, there weren't just 'a handful' of Jedi at the arena--- there were 200. Imo, there is no way that many Jedi(most of whom were no-name fodder, mind you) were so adept at masking their presence as to go unnoticed by a force-user as powerful as Dooku.

Yea, good point there.


Even 200 strong ones doing it is a stretch, and 200 'whatever Jedi, masters, and padawans just happened to be available'? No way. Dooku had to have felt them.

Vensai
Originally posted by Q99
Yea, good point there.


Even 200 strong ones doing it is a stretch, and 200 'whatever Jedi, masters, and padawans just happened to be available'? No way. Dooku had to have felt them.
He couldn't even feel Mace sneaking up on him. In Shatterpoint, he even laments that he should have been able to kill Dooku then and there.

KuRuPT Thanosi
When did he even try and kill dooki then and there.. he coudl've easily done so... He put out his saber before dooku could even react and had it at the bounty hunters throat before dooku could even turn around. Seems like he could've easily killed him

Q99
Originally posted by Vensai
He couldn't even feel Mace sneaking up on him. In Shatterpoint, he even laments that he should have been able to kill Dooku then and there.


Well, that one I can get, Mace is powerful enough to hide himself in the force.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Which book goes into the most detail on why Dooku switched sides? Was he just fed up with the Jedi Order... Was he swayed by the darth lord into making the choice for the wrong reaons?

Galan007
^ Jango Fett: Open Seasons.

The_Tempest
^ Darth Plagueis

Q99
There's surprisingly little focus on his motives and histories in the pre-clone war, considering how central a figure to it he is.

Arhael
There is nothing wrong with that.
Large crowd can easily overshadow a bunch of Jedi keeping low profile. Maybe Dooku could notice it but he would need to properly focus on presences surrounding him, which he didn't. And still it would be unlikely.

juyomaster34
Originally posted by Arhael
There is nothing wrong with that.
Large crowd can easily overshadow a bunch of Jedi keeping low profile. Maybe Dooku could notice it but he would need to properly focus on presences surrounding him, which he didn't. And still it would be unlikely.



I agree,,Dooku might have felt that he was in no serious danger.
Maybe he only felt a slight disturbance....a tremor.

Maybe Jango was closer.
Maybe he thought in order to get to Dooku he had to contain the fastest guns in the galaxy...
I would have put my Saber to Jango's throat too....

Just to talk to Dooku into a peaceful negotiation of releaseing his hostages.

Vensai
Originally posted by Arhael
There is nothing wrong with that.
Large crowd can easily overshadow a bunch of Jedi keeping low profile. Maybe Dooku could notice it but he would need to properly focus on presences surrounding him, which he didn't. And still it would be unlikely.
Yes there is. The fact that 200 jedi escaped his notice shows that Dooku's senses are pretty pathetic based on the showing. It's incredible that he never got assassinated during the CW considering how Windu and a jedi army were able to sneak up on him. Force users are supposed to have rudimentary "I sense something amiss" powers, which Dooku seems to be lacking. It's worse when you note that Dooku is supposed to be the second strongest sith lord at the time.

Based
It is explained like 10 years ago in the PS2 game Bounty Hunter of why Jango was chosen.

Dooku's ex padawan, Komari Vosa started a spice ring which ticked off Sidious for whatever reason. He sent Dooku to kill her but instead he says he'll kill two birds with one stone by starting a bounty hunter competition to find and kill her. Jango was one of these who participated and the game brings a cool and unique Mandalorian narrative. You also see the origins of Zam.

At the end of the game, Jango kills Vosa and Dooku gives him an offer to be cloned for 5 million credits. Or you could've easily looked up Jango's wiki page instead of typing out a long overdue PT sucks thread..

Arhael
Originally posted by Vensai
Yes there is. The fact that 200 jedi escaped his notice shows that Dooku's senses are pretty pathetic based on the showing. It's incredible that he never got assassinated during the CW considering how Windu and a jedi army were able to sneak up on him. Force users are supposed to have rudimentary "I sense something amiss" powers, which Dooku seems to be lacking. It's worse when you note that Dooku is supposed to be the second strongest sith lord at the time.
No it isn't. Force users are not locators. They can sense things, if they try to. Dooku didn't try. It's irrelevant how strong he was.
Similarly no matter how Sidious strong, his lightning won't hurt, if he doesn't use it.

In Tyrant's test Luke was on an empty frozen planet and felt nothing. But at the end of the novel, when he started actively groping through planet, he finally sensed life presence.

Regardless, Jedi don't have to be powerful to master concieling Force presence technique. It's a standard technique that can be learned by any average Force user. Even, if some of them weren't good at hiding presence, there were thousands other presences muffling their presence.

As of main topic the reason why Mace didn't put saber to Dooku's throat is quite simple. Jango Fett was much closer. Putting saber to Dooku's throat would leave Windu's back exposed to Jango Fett, which would be very unwise move. Of course there was an option to assassinate Dooku but Jedi are not assassins.

Vensai
The problem is force users can be locators. There are countless examples of force users "sensing" another's presence. Darth Vader wasn't trying to sense his former master's presence on the Death Star and yet he still did. There's no proof that Dooku didn't try. The fact that Vader could sense his former master without any effort and Dooku was utterly oblivious to the fact that 200 jedi were in the stadium and his old friend Windu was right behind him looks utterly ridiculous.

And Mace's actions don't excuse the fact that, as he noted in Shatterpoint, he had a chance to end the war then and there, but failed. He also has no significant feats to suggest he has skill in hiding his presence.

Kickballjedi
I wondered about this too and decided it was part of an overall plan on Dooku's part- capture the Jedi, place them in a public arena to draw the attention of the remaining Jedi, gather them all together to either wipe them out or turn them to his cause.

Count Dooku: Brave, but, foolish, my old Jedi friend. You are impossibly outnumbered.
Mace Windu: I don't think so.
Count Dooku: We'll see.

Only Yoda arriving with a flotilla of Clones saved the Jedis' asses.

There was definitely some other plot going on in the AoTC storyline, you had a scene where Dooku admits to ObiWan that there is a Sith in the Senate:

Count Dooku: What if I told you that the Republic was now under the control of a dark lord of the Sith?
Obi-Wan: No, that's not possible. The Jedi would sense it.
Count Dooku: The Dark Side has clouded their vision. Hundreds of senators are now under the influence of a Sith lord called Darth Sidious.
Obi-Wan: I don't believe you

Why would he do this? Even if his goal was to cause confusion, he gave the Jedi the clue they needed to start figuring out the plot against the Republic. We also see Dooku used as a tool in RoTS when he captures Palpatine and is sacrificed to help pull Anakin to the Dark Side. How could Dooku allow this to happen? It's like he's fighting against Sidius and helping him at the same time, ineffective at both.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Kickballjedi
Why would he do this? Even if his goal was to cause confusion, he gave the Jedi the clue they needed to start figuring out the plot against the Republic. We also see Dooku used as a tool in RoTS when he captures Palpatine and is sacrificed to help pull Anakin to the Dark Side. How could Dooku allow this to happen? It's like he's fighting against Sidius and helping him at the same time, ineffective at both. Yeah, it's almost as if... as if... these movies, you know...


don't make any... you know, sense. Right? It's like... there was sense, b-but then... you know, someone... some--took it away, you know?

Decay
Hiding your presence is a very basic technique. Palpatine successfully hid himself from Plagueis without any training at all, its just something a force sensitive learns to do early on. Plagueis was shocked at his overall power but he didnt doubt the idea that someone that young without training would be capable of it.

Force users seem to have less control over what they sense than most people think, for example Vader clearly sensed Luke on Endor and Palpatine was surprised that he couldnt. Like trying to see the future the force seems to give out what info it wants when it wants. Dooku may have sensed a general light side presence but assumed it was Anakin and Obi Wan calling on it to try and survive the arena fights.

As for Mace, I think he knew he was lucky to get as close as he did and didnt want to risk Dooku sensing him. He picked the most important guy within reach rather than trying to get closer to Dooku himself and being spotted and fired upon. It wasnt the advantage he wanted but it was the safest way to go about it. I also think he was still kind of shocked to see Dooku had fallen so far and wasnt ready to just walk in and cut him down.

Master Han
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
and instead put it to Jango's neck.. That just makes no sense to me... Not only was Jango WAY less of a target to Mace than Dooku.. he probably didn't even know who he was. Further, it seems odd that Dooku didn't sense a MASS amount of Jedi there or even Mace... People he should've been very familiar with and sensed. To make it worse... and another thing I never got.. When Mace did have Jango by the balls.. Dooku never reacted or tried to draw his saber.. Mace could've easily struck him down.. Did you know that Mace would never try such or move?

Windu did not know that Dooku was a sith lord. Remember that they were old friends. He probably assumed, also, that Dooku was still in a Jedi-mentality and would feel protective towards Fett.

Lord Lucien
Or it was just a CIS moment for the sake of the plot.

Tzeentch._
Originally posted by Arhael
No it isn't. Force users are not locators. They can sense things, if they try to.

That's not really true. There's a large precedent, even within the movies showing that Jedi can intuitively "sense" shit through the force. Sideous sensing Anakin about to get son'd on the other side of the Galaxy, immediately after fighting a grueling duel against Yoda. Obi-Wan sensing the destruction of Alderaan. Qui-Gon being enamored with Anakin even before realizing his force potential, etc. In fact, you could argue that the majority of the time, force users tend to sense that shit is about to go down intuitively rather then through some kind of active "force radar".

So yeah, Dooku not realizing what-so-ever that the guy selling him a hot-dog was in fact one of 200 jedi in that arena is kind of retarded.

Lord Lucien
Or that his student's student is hiding in a nook right above him, listening to his plans, hearing his secrets.

Master Han
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Or it was just a CIS moment for the sake of the plot.

I don't actually see anything wrong with this CIS, since one of the plot points of the Prequels is that the Jedi are blind and arrogant; earlier in AotC, Mace Windu and Ki-adi-Mundi obviously still hold a high opinion of Dooku and believe him to simply be a political nut.

Lord Lucien
As soon as it became obvious to them that he wasn't just a political idealist, but an attempted murderer and genuine threat, it should have been obvious that you put your blade to the throat of the master Force user who's clearly in charge. Not his lackey.

Allankles
Originally posted by Galan007
Yoda: "The dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see, the future is."
Mace: "Our ability to use the force has diminished."
Etc.

The Jedi couldn't sense wtf was going on, because Palpatine was using the dark side to skew their perceptions. Conversely, there is no evidence I'm aware of which states that the dozens of Jedi on Geonosis were concealing their presence from Dooku. So if that little tidbit was never addressed in canon, it is most definitely a plot-hole.

Palpatine had nothing to do with the Jedi's diminishing ability to use the force, but the arrival of the chosen one did. Basically, the force was out of balance. The Sith had no problem because the dark side thrives in conflict.

Allankles
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Surely he didn't know they were there.. if so.. why would he let one of the most dangerous Jedi masters get so close.. draw his weapon and do nothing. An army wasn't going to stop mace from killing dooku right then and there. he clearly didn't know.. not sure how that can be argued.

Mace might have been hiding his presence in the force. (an explanation)beta

And the main reason Mace doesn't kill Dooku on geonosis is because of their friendship. They were life long friends if you remember.

Doctorwho?
I still don't understand how mace managed to tank all the droids in the micro series the clone wars, yet wasn't as good here

Lord Lucien
It's almost as if the movies suck...

Doctorwho?
No, that's not true...that's impossible!

DARTH POWER
Since the CW Micro-series was made after AOTC I don't see how that's the fault of the movies.

Doctorwho?
Didn't say it was anyones fault mate. Just said I don't understand why Mace went Super Saiyan in Micro Series and not here.

Doctorwho?
There are a lot of things I can but the blame on in the Prequels, but that would be going off topic...

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Doctorwho?
Didn't say it was anyones fault mate. Just said I don't understand why Mace went Super Saiyan in Micro Series and not here.

I believe that micro-series was supposed to be exaggerated for kids. It was a kids show and a test for the CGI Clone Wars series, in which we get some nice feats from time to time but nothing like what Mace did in the micro series.

Doctorwho?
No, in that we see the Jedi are pretty useless without their lightsaber (Hostage Crisis is a good example)

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