Is Christianity what Jesus would have wanted?

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Greatest I am

Robtard
No.

Greatest I am
Originally posted by Robtard
No.

Good sense of discernment.

Regards
DL

Oliver North
yes

753
Originally posted by Robtard
No.

Christ worship isn't idolatry, however, as per the dogma of the most holy trinity, he is both the son of and god himself, although this seems lost on many contemporary christians.

Symmetric Chaos
A) Christianity can only be what Jesus wanted, by definition.
B) There are many kinds of Christianity with clear conflicts, there is no way that all of them are what Jesus wanted.

Pick your philosophy of religion.

Raisen
Too many sects and individual churches are contradictory to "Bible teachings". Idolatry was a good example. According to what I have seen and heard, in comparison to how I've interpreted The Bible, Jehovah's Witnesses are probably the most accurate.
I'm sure nobody wants to hear this, especially if their home has been raided by JW, but that is just my opinion based on my own interpretation.
They don't wear crosses and don't pray to the Virgin Mary or any representation of any Saint etc. They don't have any pagan ornaments and don't believe in Christmas Trees. They don't believe in the Trinity and view Jesus as a lesser being than God. etc.

I am not religious at all btw. I'm also definitely not part of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Lord Lucien
According to Wikipedia, on top of Catholicism and Orthodox, there's over 33,000 denominations of Protestantism. I'm sure Jeezus approves of at least one of them.

Bat Dude
Originally posted by Raisen
Too many sects and individual churches are contradictory to "Bible teachings". Idolatry was a good example. According to what I have seen and heard, in comparison to how I've interpreted The Bible, Jehovah's Witnesses are probably the most accurate.
I'm sure nobody wants to hear this, especially if their home has been raided by JW, but that is just my opinion based on my own interpretation.
They don't wear crosses and don't pray to the Virgin Mary or any representation of any Saint etc. They don't have any pagan ornaments and don't believe in Christmas Trees. They don't believe in the Trinity and view Jesus as a lesser being than God. etc.

I am not religious at all btw. I'm also definitely not part of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Jehovah's Witnesses have a lot of the little things right:

-Jesus did not have long hair
-The holidays (outside of Thanksgiving) are pagan
-We are to pray to God and God only (in Jesus' name)
-Crosses are pagan symbols (not to mention the instrument with which our Saviour was killed)

But after that they are completely messed up. I would go so far as to say they aren't saved and are just another cult.

They believe:

-Jesus is the archangel Michael, and not the Son of God
-Jesus did not rise from the dead, but rather a new body was created for Him
-Only 144,000 people will go to heaven
-Jesus will not return visibly on earth (no second coming)

Also:

-The Watchtower publications are ALL divinely inspired every month
-They have predicted the end of the world falsely too many times to count

...and most importantly of all, they believe:

-You are saved by works

So while yes, they reject the obviously pagan stuff (which, unfortunately most Christians embrace) they themselves go very much against the Word of God, which IS divinely inspired.

Jesus was God in the flesh, so yes, real born again, Bible-believing Christianity is exactly what Jesus wanted.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Bat Dude
-Jesus did not have long hair

Is there an actual Bible citation for this?

Originally posted by Bat Dude
-The holidays (outside of Thanksgiving) are pagan

President's Day is pagan?

Bat Dude
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Is there an actual Bible citation for this?

"Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head." (1 Corinthians 11:4)

"But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering." (1 Corinthians 11:15)

"Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?" (1 Corinthians 11:14)

Jesus was God in the flesh. He would not contradict the Word, because He was the Word incarnate.

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." (1 John 5:7)



Though not as overt as X-mas/Saturnalia, Helloween/Samhain or Eastre/Ostara/Ishtar/Easter, most of the other holidays glorify men rather than the Lord. Thanksgiving is the only nationally recognized holiday that puts God above all, thanking Him for what He's given to us.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Bat Dude



Though not as overt as X-mas/Saturnalia, Helloween/Samhain or Eastre/Ostara/Ishtar/Easter, most of the other holidays glorify men rather than the Lord. Thanksgiving is the only nationally recognized holiday that puts God above all, thanking Him for what He's given to us.
Does it bother you that after all the praying it was only through the munificence of a bunch of pagans that the Pilgrims survived the winter?

Bat Dude
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Does it bother you that after all the praying it was only through the munificence of a bunch of pagans that the Pilgrims survived the winter?

Multiple times in the Bible God uses pagan/heathen people to carry out His will toward His own people, whether they be Jew (in the OT) or Christian (in the NT)

For example, God used the Babylonians to lead the Jews to repentance.

So while yes, the Native Americans were pagan, the point of Thanksgiving isn't to glorify the pagans (even though the media has tried so hard to turn Thanksgiving into 'Turkey Day', a day of unthankful, hedonistic gluttony), it's to give thanks to God for what we have.

Lord Lucien
So he used them to carry out his will... and promptly had their culture and way of life eliminated? I hope he at least spared them a place in hell.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Bat Dude
Jehovah's Witnesses have a lot of the little things right:

-Jesus did not have long hair
-The holidays (outside of Thanksgiving) are pagan
-We are to pray to God and God only (in Jesus' name)
-Crosses are pagan symbols (not to mention the instrument with which our Saviour was killed)

But after that they are completely messed up. I would go so far as to say they aren't saved and are just another cult.

They believe:

-Jesus is the archangel Michael, and not the Son of God
-Jesus did not rise from the dead, but rather a new body was created for Him
-Only 144,000 people will go to heaven
-Jesus will not return visibly on earth (no second coming)

Also:

-The Watchtower publications are ALL divinely inspired every month
-They have predicted the end of the world falsely too many times to count

...and most importantly of all, they believe:

-You are saved by works

So while yes, they reject the obviously pagan stuff (which, unfortunately most Christians embrace) they themselves go very much against the Word of God, which IS divinely inspired.

Jesus was God in the flesh, so yes, real born again, Bible-believing Christianity is exactly what Jesus wanted.

More ignorance. I'm not even a Jay Dub and I know more about Jay Dubs than you. I sure hope you don't preach your ignorance to people in the real world.

Let me enlighten you. The 144k will be serving God in heaven. But the Earth will be turned into a "heaven", as well, and the rest of the good folk will be there. The 144k thing was made up by Jay Dub haters to get people to despise Jay Dubs because, deep down, they know that some of the believes of the Jay Dubs make them look dumb (such as idolizing the death-torture device that the Romans used).

The worst part of it: you think you are not saved by works and yet it says you are judged by your works. So which is it? If your works are judged as good and it allows you to go into everlasting glory, then you are saved by your works. If you are judged by your works but they mean nothing (meaning, they neither condemn you nor save you), then why a judgement of your works? You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

inb4 white throne judgement vs. final judgement

Originally posted by Bat Dude
"Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head." (1 Corinthians 11:4)

"But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering." (1 Corinthians 11:15)

"Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?" (1 Corinthians 11:14)

Jesus was God in the flesh. He would not contradict the Word, because He was the Word incarnate.

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." (1 John 5:7)

Paul wrote that, not Jesus. Your evidence is invalid. Paul never even saw Jesus in the flesh.

I'll take the word of educated and dedicated historians over the word of Paul.

Bat Dude
Originally posted by dadudemon More ignorance. I'm not even a Jay Dub and I know more about Jay Dubs than you. I sure hope you don't preach your ignorance to people in the real world.

Let me enlighten you. The 144k will be serving God in heaven. But the Earth will be turned into a "heaven", as well, and the rest of the good folk will be there. The 144k thing was made up by Jay Dub haters to get people to despise Jay Dubs because, deep down, they know that some of the believes of the Jay Dubs make them look dumb (such as idolizing the death-torture device that the Romans used).

I realize that they believe that earth will become a "heaven". I'm not as ignorant as you think. But they don't teach that earth will be heaven. Earth will still be earth. Tell me this: What do they do with these verses?

"Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:3

"Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:10

"Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." Matthew 5:12

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:20

"But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:" Matthew 6:20

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21

"And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 8:11

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3

And that's just in the Gospel of Matthew! If what JW says is true, then Jesus was a liar, because He said that if we are converted, we will enter into the kingdom of HEAVEN. That doesn't put a number on it. Anyone that is converted sincerely and believes will go to heaven when they die.

And what about these in Revelation, that explains who the 144,000 actually are?

"And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand." Revelation 7:4-8

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads... These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." Revelation 14:1,4

The 144,000 are Jewish male virgins. If you aren't Jewish by birth, male and a virgin, you are not one of the 144,000.

I said that JW has the little things right, such as the holidays and the cross (as well as Jesus having short hair), but in terms of salvation they are 100% wrong.



Your works are judged after you die, whether you are saved or not. You are saved if you believe the gospel. The saved get their works judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ. The unsaved get their works judged at the Great White Throne Judgment. The unsaved works will perish, and they will be cast into the lake of fire, because they are sinners (as we all are) and did not have the blood of Christ to cover their sins. The saved will either get their works burned up (but still are saved) or will not. Either way, they are still saved, not because of works they did, but because Christ died for us. The Bible talks about this:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" Titus 3:5

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:15



So Paul's just the usurper then, right?

If you don't believe the words of Paul the apostle, you don't believe the Word of God, because his epistles were inspired of God (which is why they are in the Bible in the first place).

Raisen
JW believe 144k will go to heaven, and the rest that are worthy will reside on a perfect Earth.

The prediction of the end of the world was a one-time thing IIRC, and it was led by one man who was obviously misguided. Hating on the whole religion is not fair for the err of one man leading ignorant people. I don't know why they did this in the first place, seeing as one of the big things they teach is that man will not know the hour of the end

Also, how do you NOT judge people by their works. That idea is written throughout The Bible

Lord Lucien
I for one am looking forward to living on a perfect Earth.

Oliver North
its what the Jehovah's Witnesses think a perfect Earth would be

thats going to be as exciting as a Bible dance chaperoned by the priest that touched you

Bat Dude
Originally posted by Raisen
JW believe 144k will go to heaven, and the rest that are worthy will reside on a perfect Earth.

Which isn't heaven. Jesus said if we are converted and born again, we will enter the kingdom of HEAVEN. Not the kingdom of perfect earth. The kingdom of HEAVEN. They're calling Jesus Christ a liar.

And the Bible says that the 144k are saved Jewish/Hebrew male virgins. No one else.



It was the founder of the religion, Charles T. Russell, though. The Bible says: "And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it." 1 Corinthians 12:26

Basically, if the head is sick, the whole body will be sick, as well.

He falsely predicted the end of the world in:

1914
1915
1918

Then Joseph Rutherford took over the religion and predicted it in 1925.

And since then, they have falsely predicted the end in 1975 and 1989.

The Bible warns about false prophets:

"When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." Deuteronomy 18:22

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20

"If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul." Deuteronomy 13:1-3

"Then the Lord said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart." Jeremiah 14:14

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." Matthew 7:15

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1



Read my previous post on this.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" Titus 3:5

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

We will be judged on our works, but that is not what will save us from hellfire.

I didn't even elaborate on the fact that JW believe Jesus was/is just an angel and not God in the flesh, and that the Watchtower Society publications are ALL inspired by God every single month...

dadudemon
Originally posted by Bat Dude
I realize that they believe that earth will become a "heaven". I'm not as ignorant as you think. But they don't teach that earth will be heaven. Earth will still be earth. Tell me this: What do they do with these verses?

They say it will be a heavenly paradise. It will be a heavenly paradise according to their beliefs. They literally consider it a form of heaven. You and I cannot question whether or not they believe that: that is actually part of their belief system.

I apologize for my seemingly vitriolic response to you, earlier. I could have worded that better. By ignorance, I only meant "your lack of knowledge concerning our JW brethren." Not that you are an ignorant person. I was just trying to hurry up and type that as I had to go...by being short I came off short. sad

To all the other stuff, I don't really care. I am positive of my perspective and it is backed by scripture. You are positive of yours and back it by scripture. We can both agree that the ONLY way to salvation is through the genuine acceptance of Christ, Repentance, and the continual process of improvement. "Be you therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48

All the other stuff is just unnecessary squabbling which makes us look bad to outsiders.



About the thread topic: I think getting caught up in the minor details of Christianity is the same reason Jesus' was even around: to teach that following minute and mostly irrelevant customs is not very eternally enlightening: being a genuinely good person, who doesn't judge others, is the best way to go about life. So getting caught up on the idols and such is just a distraction some Christians and anti-Christians use to throw stones at Christians. There is far too much squabbling, internally, among Christians. It literally makes us look bad.

Raisen
Originally posted by Oliver North
its what the Jehovah's Witnesses think a perfect Earth would be

thats going to be as exciting as a Bible dance chaperoned by the priest that touched you

I actually still talk to the Priest that fondled me. Father McNasty, he's a swell guy.

Oliver North
It's still a bible dance, no amount of child molestation will fix that

Raisen
Originally posted by Bat Dude
Which isn't heaven. Jesus said if we are converted and born again, we will enter the kingdom of HEAVEN. Not the kingdom of perfect earth. The kingdom of HEAVEN. They're calling Jesus Christ a liar.

And the Bible says that the 144k are saved Jewish/Hebrew male virgins. No one else.



It was the founder of the religion, Charles T. Russell, though. The Bible says: "And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it." 1 Corinthians 12:26

Basically, if the head is sick, the whole body will be sick, as well.

He falsely predicted the end of the world in:

1914
1915
1918

Then Joseph Rutherford took over the religion and predicted it in 1925.

And since then, they have falsely predicted the end in 1975 and 1989.

The Bible warns about false prophets:

"When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." Deuteronomy 18:22

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20

"If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul." Deuteronomy 13:1-3

"Then the Lord said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart." Jeremiah 14:14

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." Matthew 7:15

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1



Read my previous post on this.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" Titus 3:5

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

We will be judged on our works, but that is not what will save us from hellfire.

I didn't even elaborate on the fact that JW believe Jesus was/is just an angel and not God in the flesh, and that the Watchtower Society publications are ALL inspired by God every single month...

I really don't care for all your Bible quotes; they can be interpreted in many ways. The point is One Guy was the root of the false predictions. One Guy, whether he was the creator of the religion or not, shouldn't represent the whole organization. How would you feel if everyone judged you because your father was murderer? Is it fair. No. People can rationalize that your father raised you, and instilled his values into you, but are they correct to judge you based on your father's actions?

Bat Dude
Originally posted by Raisen
I really don't care for all your Bible quotes; they can be interpreted in many ways. The point is One Guy was the root of the false predictions. One Guy, whether he was the creator of the religion or not, shouldn't represent the whole organization. How would you feel if everyone judged you because your father was murderer? Is it fair. No. People can rationalize that your father raised you, and instilled his values into you, but are they correct to judge you based on your father's actions?

The entire religion is based on his writings, Joseph Rutherford's writings, and the Watchtower Society's writings.

And btw, Joseph Rutherford did the same thing, predicting the end of the world in 1925 (via his booklet "Millions Now Living Will Never Die"wink. And so did the Watchtower Magazine that predicted the end of the world in 1975 and 1989.

So not only was Charles T. Russell a false prophet, but so was Joseph Rutherford and the entire Watchtower Society (which, all together, is what the Jehovah's Witness religion is ENTIRELY based on)

You cannot refute that.

Raisen
Originally posted by Oliver North
It's still a bible dance, no amount of child molestation will fix that

Did I kill the Atheism thread? I'm sorry if I did. Nobody's been on there for days. I really don't want to stay off, but I will if nobody wants me on there.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Raisen
I actually still talk to the Priest that fondled me. Father McNasty, he's a swell guy.

That's too bad, dude. Sorry that happened to you. sad

Greatest I am
Originally posted by Oliver North
yes

Jesus would like a self-serving church then. Ok.

Care to justify that opinion and state what Jesus would like of it?

Regards
DL

Oliver North
Originally posted by Greatest I am
Jesus would like a self-serving church then. Ok.

Care to justify that opinion and state what Jesus would like of it?

Regards
DL

Jesus was a premadona

he liked the attention

Bardock42
Prima Donna

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Oliver North
Jesus was a premadona

he liked the attention
Technically he was a postmadonna. She gave birth to him.

Oliver North
I was trying to compare him to the early Madonna, with spikey breasts and males simulating sex acts during the entire show

Bardock42
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Technically he was a postmadonna. She gave birth to him.

Well done.

Originally posted by Oliver North
I was trying to compare him to the early Madonna, with spikey breasts and males simulating sex acts during the entire show

Also well done.


On topic though, I think either Robtard or inimalist are correct...

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Bardock42
Well done.

vbqYgOXX4YM

Greatest I am
Originally posted by Greatest I am
Jesus would like a self-serving church then. Ok.

Care to justify that opinion and state what Jesus would like of it?

Regards
DL

He mostly get's justified bad press, but hey, that's show business and any publicity is good publicity.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am
Originally posted by Bardock42
Prima Donna

But but, --- the Trinity thing says that Jesus was in with and a part of God, a stupid notion, before Mary was born. He be Mother ****er.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am
Originally posted by Bat Dude
The entire religion is based on .

Human sacrifice and the notion that a God whoud die for you.

The biggest ego joke of the universe. Only really swollen egos will believe such a thing.

The slave owner dying for the slaves. How droll.

Regards
DL

Bardock42
I think perhaps you think that the quote buttons are at the top of a post. That however is mistaken, they are at the bottom.

Greatest I am
Yes. I see that.

Regard
DL

atv2
Yes! He is the way the truth and the life and no one could come to God except through him. In following Christ, we get to God/Jehovah too.

Greatest I am
Originally posted by atv2
Yes! He is the way the truth and the life and no one could come to God except through him. In following Christ, we get to God/Jehovah too.

That is not what Jesus says unless you ignore this.

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

Which quote is a lie?
They cannot both be true.

Regards
DL

Okieshowedem
Now before you blow your top ....read your Bible.
2 Cor.4:4 state point blank that Satan is the god of this world.
The Creator Who's Name is YAHWEH is NOT A GOD!
Bet you did not know that Satan was smart enough to deceived the whole world with one little word now did you?

Want proof?

Here it is.


http://www.yahweh.com/pdf/Booklet_Lord-God.pdf

See if you have eyes to see and a believing mind or are you among those whom Satan has deceived?


Okie

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Okieshowedem
Now before you blow your top ....read your Bible.
2 Cor.4:4 state point blank that Satan is the god of this world.
The Creator Who's Name is YAHWEH is NOT A GOD!
Bet you did not know that Satan was smart enough to deceived the whole world with one little word now did you?

Want proof?

Here it is.


http://www.yahweh.com/pdf/Booklet_Lord-God.pdf

See if you have eyes to see and a believing mind or are you among those whom Satan has deceived?


Okie

Wow! That's a nice twist?

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