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How do these two Sith lords match up?

Setting: Kamino platform in AoTC
State: Bloodlusted
Bonus: Replace Bane with Zannah

Scenario 1: No orbalisks for Bane
Scenario 2: Orbalisks for Bane

Sabers:
Force:
All-out:

Note: Some people should read "Read Me" before making unbalanced threads like Sidious or Yoda vs RoTJ Luke or putting more than three people on a team

Malgus is my favorite character. Good thread

Bane w/orbalisks: Bane probably. Orbalisks are near undestructable, his lightning is capable of reducing people to ash, astonishing speed, disintegration of technobeasts and I think it's a win for Bane.

Bane w/ orbalisk (DoE Bane): Here I'm ready to argue for Malgus, if anybody wants to.

Mmm Bane takes this... Great battle.

Bane with obselisks wins. Without... closer, I could see Malgus win, but tough fight.

Originally posted by Q99
Bane with obselisks wins. Without... closer, I could see Malgus win, but tough fight.
Agreed.

Originally posted by Q99
Bane with obselisks wins. Without... closer, I could see Malgus win, but tough fight.
mmm
Interesting....
There used to be a heated debate that DoE Bane could give Sidious a run for his money. IIRC the reason being his supposedly virtually unmatched saber-skills (rain feat)....

Yet, if Malgus has a very good chance at beating him, either DoE Bane's abilities has been dramatically overblown, or Malgus's prowess has been severely underestimated.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
mmm
Yet, if Malgus has a very good chance at beating him, either DoE Bane's abilities has been dramatically overblown, or Malgus's prowess has been severely underestimated.
Both.

Anyone here think Bane could essence transfer to Malgus then?

Bane in both scenarios. Orbs is ridiculous for most anyone to take him.

As to DoE, yes, the speed feat is relevant here. The fact that he survived against Zannah when he was unarmed and in an enclosed hallway speaks to his abilities. His battle against Kas'im when he was only a neophyte in saber combat speaks to his abilities. He may have been amped against the three Jedi, but they were also aided by BM and were pressed to their eventual deaths.

On the Force side, his lighting is nigh ridiculous. That is one place that only he and Sidious have demonstrated such great power. His of one million volts that ashed bodies and disintegrated technobeasts, and Sidious' whose ashed a Sith Worm from the inside. His Dark Void that left nothing of those who contacted it. His cloaking himself in the Force for a trip into vacuum and subsequently using the Force to survive an impact that left everyone and everything else involved as nothing but bloody pulp. The destructive capability of his Force Wave.

Malgus is no punk, but he is not on Bane's level. There's a reason that there are Bane vs Yoda/Luke/Sidious/Windu threads. Malgus would be eaten alive by any duelists/Force users of that calibur.

Malgus as an apprentice: defeated along with his lord by one Master and his apprentice.

Bane as an 'apprentice': evinces lighting after a few hours of study that utterly terrifies the woman who has taught it to him, explores forgotten Sith worlds on his own, forces one of the most revered lords of his order to kowtow to him, defeats the most capable individual Sith duelist of the order, overcomes the mental techniques of a Sith capable of offering Battle Meditation to an entire fleet while simultaneously disrupting the combat coherency of enemy forces.

Bane far outstrips Malgus, and yes, if necessary, I believe that Bane's will and mental prowess could overcome that of Malgus for a forced essence transfer.

This place has a lot of Bane fanboys?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
This place has a lot of Bane fanboys?
Uh-oh

Or maybe its because people don't want to believe that he can do what he can do. A lot of people who argue against him have not read the books.

Originally posted by Pwned
A lot of people who argue against him have not read the books.

Can you really blame them?

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Bane in both scenarios. Orbs is ridiculous for most anyone to take him.

As to DoE, yes, the speed feat is relevant here. The fact that he survived against Zannah when he was unarmed and in an enclosed hallway speaks to his abilities. His battle against Kas'im when he was only a neophyte in saber combat speaks to his abilities. He may have been amped against the three Jedi, but they were also aided by BM and were pressed to their eventual deaths.

On the Force side, his lighting is nigh ridiculous. That is one place that only he and Sidious have demonstrated such great power. His of one million volts that ashed bodies and disintegrated technobeasts, and Sidious' whose ashed a Sith Worm from the inside. His Dark Void that left nothing of those who contacted it. His cloaking himself in the Force for a trip into vacuum and subsequently using the Force to survive an impact that left everyone and everything else involved as nothing but bloody pulp. The destructive capability of his Force Wave.

Malgus is no punk, but he is not on Bane's level. There's a reason that there are Bane vs Yoda/Luke/Sidious/Windu threads. Malgus would be eaten alive by any duelists/Force users of that calibur.

Malgus as an apprentice: defeated along with his lord by one Master and his apprentice.

Bane as an 'apprentice': evinces lighting after a few hours of study that utterly terrifies the woman who has taught it to him, explores forgotten Sith worlds on his own, forces one of the most revered lords of his order to kowtow to him, defeats the most capable individual Sith duelist of the order, overcomes the mental techniques of a Sith capable of offering Battle Meditation to an entire fleet while simultaneously disrupting the combat coherency of enemy forces.

Bane far outstrips Malgus, and yes, if necessary, I believe that Bane's will and mental prowess could overcome that of Malgus for a forced essence transfer.
Almost all the opponents Bane fought were featless, even the Sith swords master didn't really do much. Besides, Bane was losing against him. Bane was also amped during his most impressive force usages.

Originally posted by Vensai
Almost all the opponents Bane fought were featless, even the Sith swords master didn't really do much. Besides, Bane was losing against him. Bane was also amped during his most impressive force usages.


I don't think it's reasonable to assume top-people from their respective eras were unimpressive just because it hasn't been detailed. Some of the stuff that said warriors were said to have done is very impressive.





People's opinions of Bane seem to have fallen with time.

If the opponents are featless, they're featless. Darth Mlagus was able to achieve a state that resembled oneness in Deceived. Bane hasn't done anything like that unless he was amped.

Originally posted by Vensai
If the opponents are featless, they're featless. Darth Mlagus was able to achieve a state that resembled oneness in Deceived. Bane hasn't done anything like that unless he was amped.

Malgus couldn't fry a damn trooper with his lightning during the height of battle. Even when he did so at a later time, his display was not on par with that of Bane. Again, only Bane and Sidious have displayed Force lighting capable of utterly destroying its target.

I have no problem with you disagreeing with assessments of Bane, but try addressing the arguments made. There is no era in which a Jedi killing fifty or so other Force users is a 'featless' character.

Tulak Hord's ability is only in question because of the murkiness surrounding him. No one argues that if he truly slayed hundreds of other duelists that he was a punk because he was born too long before Yoda/Anakin/etc.

Clearly Kas'im was great in his ability one, for being able to train Bane in the manner that he did, two for having survived in an era in which he would have faced a number of Jedi in combat before taking his role on Korriban, and three, for even having survived the Force wave that Bane unleashed on him.

I do wish Karpyshyn had done a better job going into detail in the Bane novels because a lot more could have been developed, but the top tier duelists were demonstrated to be that.

I will say what I've said before: Tempest and I in no way agree as to the whole picture that is the Bane era, but at least he sites evidence and expects me and others to do the same in our arguments. Vensai, in other threads you make it clear that you know little of this era, and argue little about it, yet here you want to claim that Malgus is Bane's equal; fine, give some reason as to why.

Again, look at what little Malgus did as an apprentice vs what Bane evinced both in terms of saber prowess, mental strength, and proficiency in the Force. Look at what they did at their peaks. Malgus in not a lightweight, but I he doesn't even show the capability with sabers of Maul or Dooku, nor does he show the affinity for the Force necessary to survive an encounter with Bane.

As to Bane's Force prowess, I'd also like to point to him having the requisite ability to satisfy the requirements of the wards leading to Revan's holocron, his possession of the Force knowledge to access it and later Derzu's holocron, create his own holocron, and to immerse his own consciousness into the holocron of Andeddu in order to unlock the necessary information for essence transfer.

Holocron's were not an artifact left behind weak Sith Lords, nor were the majority of them easily utilized.

Please. I don't recall Bane killing anyone with lightning in DoE without a nexus enhancing him. Malgus, on the other hand, has done so, without any enhancement.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Please. I don't recall Bane killing anyone with lightning in DoE without a nexus enhancing him. Malgus, on the other hand, has done so, without any enhancement.
Yeah. Malgus has also spent years fighting a war against the Jedi while Bane did not besides hiding and manipulating rather than using combat.

While under the effects of drugs that reduced his ability to use the Force, he created an ionic storm, casually blasted out a door meant to stop bombs, and killed 12 guards barehanded. They had blasters.

His lightning also blasted through the duracrete wall to expose the explosive underneath.
Turned armored men to ashes.

None of that done of a nexus.


And overcharged his Orbalisks in a second or less. It was also called, "A million volts". (Which is a slight mistake on the authors part. It should be, "amps" since I believe amps are actually what kills you)

You have no reason to believe that Malgus is superior from what I see. Bane has better showings which you are attempting to low-ball. Malgus isn't even as strong as casual Bane during a fight?

Originally posted by Pwned
While under the effects of drugs that reduced his ability to use the Force, he created an ionic storm, casually blasted out a door meant to stop bombs, and killed 12 guards barehanded. They had blasters.

His lightning also blasted through the duracrete wall to expose the explosive underneath.
Turned armored men to ashes.

None of that done of a nexus.


And overcharged his Orbalisks in a second or less. It was also called, "A million volts". (Which is a slight mistake on the authors part. It should be, "amps" since I believe amps are actually what kills you)

You have no reason to believe that Malgus is superior from what I see. Bane has better showings which you are attempting to low-ball. Malgus isn't even as strong as casual Bane during a fight?
I'm not trying to lowball Bane. He's one of my favorite Sith. I'm just saying he's only killed featless fodder and hurt himself according to your feat post. If you want to compare, Malgus took a grenade to the face and was buried under a great deal of rubble but survived, he also killed two Jedi soon after, who are more impressive than random soldiers.

Originally posted by Vensai
If you want to compare, Malgus took a grenade to the face

gif fail

Twenty pieces of silver to the man who can make a funny joke about Nephthys's mother in the vein of this sentence.

My mom was a Sith Lord......

Till she took a grenade to the face.

Oh yes, hilarious. Oh man. So classic.

Originally posted by Pwned

You have no reason to believe that Malgus is superior from what I see. Bane has better showings which you are attempting to low-ball. Malgus isn't even as strong as casual Bane during a fight?
Bane's showings are better than any character from other books due to author's writing style.

Read Deceived, if you didn't. One of the best books. While Bane is just a supercool badass as every character in Drew's books, Malgus is actually a real character who has sense of honor and even can love.

Malgus removing his respirator to kiss his girlfriend is clearly the best part of Deceived.

Malgus:

-Kills Jedi with single bursts of Lightning
-Takes out the temple's battlemaster before he reached his peak
-Beat the shit out of Atris
-Overall pretty fantastic TK feats during the sacking of Corusant.
-Dueled evenly with a younger Satele Shan.

Bane:

-Extremely powerful lightning that leaves Jedi Charred
-Took out the temple's battlemaster while she was amped on BM
-Showed insane speed feats
-Shattered a pillar with TK with only moderate difficulty.
-In his elder years, almost defeated a peak Zannah


I think Bane's feats are ever so slightly superior here.

To sum it up:

Bane:

-Faster
-More powerful Lightning
-Superior bladework

Malgus:

-Stronger
-More powerful TK
-More Experience battling Force Users

Originally posted by Vensai
I'm not trying to lowball Bane. He's one of my favorite Sith. I'm just saying he's only killed featless fodder and hurt himself according to your feat post. If you want to compare, Malgus took a grenade to the face and was buried under a great deal of rubble but survived, he also killed two Jedi soon after, who are more impressive than random soldiers.

A human trooper also survived that same blast, while holding said grenade in his hand. The same human that Malgus couldn't kill with his lighting.

You can try and spin it as you like, but Lsu, Kas'im, Farfalla, and even Zannah herself weren't fodder. Your insistence that he never demonstrated powerful lightning while not amped were disproved above.

I think New Guy summed things up somewhat. Again, Bane's feats as a Sith of only what, two or three years, far outclass what Malgus demonstrated as the wars began during the Old Republic scape, and Malgus was trained in the Sith ways from childhood.

Ven Zallow is noted as Malgus' most famous kill: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ven_Zallow

Read that and tell me he's not garbage compared to blade masters like Kas'im and Lsu. He's not even on Qui Gon's level. You're going to try and tell me his is on par with the Sith who enstated the Rule of Two? Don't even try and tell me that Bane only killed fodder after that. We have Bane engaging in combat with three of the most noted duelists of the time, one amped by the same nexus that Bane was empowered by, and the other two aided by Battle Meditation.

Farfalla would likely even be capable of eating Malgus up by himself considering the combat he saw during the Sith War. I'm glad I looked further into it because Malgus' has no duels of worth to his name, nothing.

You can say that I'm wrong all you like, but I want examples. What prowess did he show in combat that proves him greater than Bane? He defeated ONE Jedi as his claim to fame. Bane survived as a trooper, defeated the entirety of his training class comprised of only those who had the potential to become Lords of the Sith, engaged in battle with and killed the greatest saber users of his day, showed speed and knowledge of saber combat that as his instructor put it took him beyond the forms into another realm of understanding of the blade, demonstrated abilities in the Force that Malgus didn't even hope to touch in his wet dreams, and survived his apprentice trying to kill him in an enclosed space despite having no saber to defend himself. He purged poison from his system by utilizing the Force, fed off of the fear and anguish of others in order to survive what should have killed him, unlocked holocrons that were only capable of being utilized by top tier practitioners of the Force, and pushed his own spirit into another in order to unlock its secrets. He survived an ambush by his apprentice, a Sith acolyte, and two Umbarran-trained assassins cloaked in the Force. He cowered one of the most feared Sith Lords of his day, and overcame the mind dominance of another who, as I noted earlier, had a Force reach great enough to empower his entire fighting force while at the same time crushing the battle coherence and capabilities of the enemy.

What did Malgus do that in any way shows that he is on Bane's level in terms of saber ability, Force affinity, and overall power as it relates to the other Sith Lords? He got screen time because of some cool looking cutscenes, but it seems what was revealed there was the entirety of his Sith legacy.

I await your retort. Again, please provide something of substance this time.

As far as I'm aware no one has said that Ven and Kao were exactly beasts in saber combat. But the opponents Bane fought are just as featless as Ven and Kao with a saber.

Ven killed, like, 3 sith and a couple troopers just before fighting Malgus. So aside from his rank, we got to see that feat.

And Tsu still has her huge kill-count ^^




Mind, force-user growth rates can vary wildly and don't necessarily reflect final power very well.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
As far as I'm aware no one has said that Ven and Kao were exactly beasts in saber combat. But the opponents Bane fought are just as featless as Ven and Kao with a saber.

Do we see OMGWTFBBQGRASS! battle scenes with them? No. But we do have Lsu and Kas'im who are both blade masters for their order during a time of almost continual conflict. You don't put someone who's garbage in those positions. Secondly, though it's not a displayed feat, Lsu is again credited with having killed more Sith than the Thought Bomb, so 50 plus kills to her name. You're going to tell me that isn't of value?

Again, Tulak Hord is given most of his credence simply by way of having killed somewhere in the order of 300 or more in combat, many of whom were troopers, etc. Is he now a no one simply because he's "featless" and we don't have a written description or cinematic of him curb stomping three or four specific high-level opponents?

Joking aside, there have been valid arguments made by others for Bane in both his Orb and DoE incarnations standing against Windu, Yoda, Sidious, and prime Skywalker. While in some cases he would lose, no one ever said that it would be a day in the park for any of his opponents. Are you going to tell me that Malgus would even have a whisper of a chance against them? It's been argued as well that Bane takes Maul decidedly due to both his saber skills and Force abilities, outclassing the Zabrak in either category. Having looked at the little that Malgus displayed in terms of both feats and back story can you honestly tell me that you think that Malgus would ever be the victor if Darth Maul were dispatched to take his head?

I took the time to lay out what Bane did to demonstrate his prowess, as did others. If you can't bother to give specifics as to what Malgus has done to bolster him as a greater saber duelist, Force user, and Sith Lord then I'm just going to leave your statements be. An argument uses evidence to back up its position. I asked some very specific questions both here and above. Take the time to respond to them if you want me to take your points seriously, otherwise I'm just going to relegate your future posts to the junk pile and assume that the statements you make have nothing backing them up but empty opinion.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Having looked at the little that Malgus displayed in terms of both feats and back story can you honestly tell me that you think that Malgus would ever be the victor if Darth Maul were dispatched to take his head?

Yes.

Again, you mention Bane's lightning as able to reduce ash when in fact he has only done this while being enhanced by Orbalisks. I'm looking for feats either from PoD or DoE.

From Dynasty of Evil;

Three of the victims were electrocuted, dying before they even had a chance to scream. The fourth, however, managed to throw herself back from the balcony's edge, evading the deadly attack.

I'm fairly certain that is his best lightning feat from DoE. Very impressive but Malgus has done the same. In fact, he once killed three Jedi with lightning, just as Bane did;

Malgus, not to be outdone, picked a Jedi Knight at random, a human female ten meters away, held forth his left hand, and discharged veins of blue lightning from his fingertips. The jagged lines of energy cut a swath through the battle, harvesting two Padawans as they went, until they caught up to the Jedi Knight and lifted her off her feet.

She screamed as the lightning ripped into her, her flesh made temporarily translucent from the dark power coursing through her. Malgus savored her pain as she died.

-Deceived

He burns flesh with lightning;

As Aryn prepared to leap at Malgus, he held forth a hand, almost casually, and lightning sizzled through the space between them. Aryn interposed her lightsabers, but the power in the lightning exceeded anything she had felt from Malgus before. It blasted through her defenses and both lightsabers flew from her hands. The lightning seized her, lifted her up, and threw her from the top of the shuttle.

As she flew toward the deck, she smelled burning flesh, heard screaming, realized that it was her flesh, her screams. She hit the ground hard and her head bounced off the ground. Sparks erupted in her brain, pain, and everything went dark.

-Deceived

Burning flesh again;

Malgus held forth his hand and the rage within him manifested in blue veins of lightning that discharged from his fingertips and slammed into Adraas. The power stopped Adraas's charge cold, blew his lightsaber from his hand, caught him up in a cage of burning lightning. He screamed, squirming in frustration and pain.

"End it, Malgus! End it!"

Malgus unclenched his fingers and released the lightning. Adraas fell to the ground, his flesh smoking, the skin of his once handsome face blistered and peeling. Again he rose to all fours and looked up at Malgus.

-Deceived

Bane is impressive in the lightning regard but Malgus more so.

Then you choose to use his disintegration as a proof of his powers, while in fact this was again done whilst wearing Orbalisks.

Provide some telekinesis feats for Bane, preferably with quotes, then I'm gonna provide some of Malgus'.

Look in RoT. When he first had the Orbalisks attached, before he got the amp or anything from them, he reduced a dozen (?) armored men to ash.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Provide some telekinesis feats for Bane, preferably with quotes, then I'm gonna provide some of Malgus'.

Heres one, I don't have the books on me so its all I have atm in terms of quotes:

Bane thrust out with the Force, and a dozen of the oncoming creatures exploded into dust and tiny flecks of small, twisted metal.

That enemy vanquished, he used the Force to disintegrate two more advancing technobeasts, then felt something bump against his foot.

He also demolished the temple on Lehon with a Force Wave powerful enough to pulp bones, and would have killed Raskta with a Force Push had Farfalla not protected her.

Also whatever Pwned mentioned.

Originally posted by Intrepid37

Then you choose to use his disintegration as a proof of his powers, while in fact this was again done whilst wearing Orbalisks.


p117, RoT, pre-Orbalisks Bane reduces one of his foes to ash. Only part of his mount, a two-ton winged lizard remained. There's an earlier example when he does the same to a few of the mercenaries that he kills, but I can't get the excerpt and I don't have the hard copy to give you the exact quote.

New Guy or Q99 already posted earlier in the thread what he managed after escaping his bonds in DoE, years after the Orbs were long gone.

I will say that what you posted from Deceived certainly gives Malgus more credence in terms of what he is capable of, but his lighting certainly isn't beyond what Bane manifested.

I've been willing to concede that the Force Void that Bane created on Prakith was only sustainable for so long because he was on a Dark Side nexus, but the technique itself is another attack that almost no other Sith have come close to, save the greatest in the order. It is not something that just any Sith could manage.

Beyond that, Bane's survival of Kaan's mental attacks and his ability to actually enter a holocron, destroy its guardian's essence, and extricate himself are again something very, very few others could manage. That is an understanding of the Force that is more than difficult to compete with.

As to TK, the Temple that he leveled was again, pre Orbs. Even something as simple as sending other Force users flying with his TK during training sessions and when they attempted to ambush him in the archives is something that not all Sith or Jedi were capable of, and he does so after a year's training. Other examples have been provided by others above.

@Nephthys

Done while wearing Orbalisks.

@Ascendancy

If he did indeed reduce enemies to ash without any enhancements then I concede the lightning part.

New post incoming with all of Malgus' feats.

2/2

He deactivated his lightsaber, held up his left hand, and made a pincer of his fingers.

Adraas tried to use his own power to defend himself but Malgus pushed through it and took telekinetic hold of Adraas's throat.

Adraas gagged, the capillaries in his wide eyes beginning to pop. Malgus's power lifted Adraas from the floor, his legs kicking, gasping.

Malgus stood directly before Adraas, his hate the vise closing on Adraas's trachea.

"You and Angral caused this, Adraas. And the Emperor. There can be no peace with the Jedi, no truce." He clenched his fist. "There can be no peace, at all. Not ever."

Adraas's only answer was continued gagging.

Seeing him there, hanging, near death, Malgus thought of Eleena, of Adraas's description of her. He released Adraas from the clutch of his Force choke.

Adraas hit the ground on his back, gasping. Malgus had a knee on his chest and both his hands on his throat before Adraas could recover. He would kill Adraas with his bare hands.

"Look me in the eyes," he said, and made Adraas look at him. "In the eyes!"

Adraas's eyes showed petechial hemorrhaging but Malgus knew he was coherent.

"You called her a mongrel," Malgus said. He removed his gauntlets, took Adraas by the throat, and began to squeeze. "To my face you called her that. Her."

Adraas blinked, his eyes watering. His mouth opened and closed but no sound emerged.

"You are the mongrel, Adraas." Malgus bent low, nose-to-nose. "Angral's mongrel and you and those like you have mongrelized the purity of the Empire with your pollution, trading strength for a wretched peace."

Adraas's trachea collapsed in Malgus's grip. There was no final cough or gag. Adraas died in silence.

Malgus rose and stood over Adraas's body. He pulled on his gloves, adjusted his armor, his cloak, and walked out of the manse.

-Deceived

Malgus stood in a pocket under a mountain of rubble, legs bent, the power from his upraised hands preventing several tons of duracrete and steel from crushing him. Dust made his already troubled breathing more difficult. He coughed as the words of his father echoed in his mind.

He'd been sloppy, so lost in his need for revenge that he'd failed to properly evaluate the Jedi's power. He'd surrendered his reason to bloodlust. But no more. With an effort of will, he contained his anger, controlled it, made it a whetstone against which he sharpened his power. Using the Force, he blew the rubble up and away from him. It fell with a crash into the adjacent buildings. A Force-augmented leap carried him out and over the heap. The Jedi's eyes widened as Malgus hit the street. Malgus sneered and charged.

-The Third Lesson

He closed the distance between them rapidly. The red line of Malgus's lightsaber moved so quickly it blurred into a red smear.

-The Third Lesson

A human male in his twenties rose up out of ruins, dangling like a fish on the hook of Malgus's power. His legs kicked futilely; the green blade of his lightsaber cut at empty air; he gagged as Malgus's power squeezed shut his throat.

"Vorin!" shouted the Zabrak.

"So much for your ambush," Malgus said, and closed his fist, crushing Vorin's windpipe. He let the body fall to the charred earth.

-The Third Lesson

At 10 meters, Malgus extended his free hand and loosed veins of blue Force lightning. They struck the charging Jedi: swept through his defenses, swirled around him, and began to burn flesh.

Shouting with pain, the Jedi leaned forward into the lightning - teeth bare, blue blades held before him - and staggered toward Malgus. Despite his burns, he came onward. One step, another, another, but he was failing, wilting in the heat of the lightning. Malgus channeled more power and the Jedi fell to his knees, screaming. The lightning spiraled around the Zabrak, blasting dark holes in his body. The lightsabers fell from his hands and he writhed in agony, screaming his pain into the sky.

Malgus ended his attack. The Jedi, ruined, fell to the ground and rolled over onto his back. His breathing sounded worse than Malgus's.

The Jedi, his face twisted with pain, stared up at Malgus. One of the horns on his head had cracked from the heat of the Force lightning. The Jedi's eyes went to the deactivated lightsaber in Malgus's fist and he cocked his head.

Malgus read the question in his eyes. Mercy from a Sith? Malgus smiled. He stepped forward, activated his blade, and stabbed the Jedi through the chest. "Sleep," he said.

-The Third Lesson

Originally posted by Intrepid37
@Nephthys

Done while wearing Orbalisks.

I don't care.

...

I was specifically asking for feats from Bane without Orbalisks.

At no point did you specifically say that.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I'm looking for feats either from PoD or DoE.

You were talking about lightning.

No.

Maybe you should have been more specific. awermm

Maybe.

@Intrepid37
good job with listing Malgus' feats

As of now, I see his battle with DoE Bane to sway in Malgus' favor.

@alex_jovan

Thanks.

Malgus' displays of lighting are definitely up there; not equal to Sidious', Bane's, and from the limited description I've read Gethzerion's, but it's no doubt some of the strongest evinced in the series. I'd have to look again, but it seems likely that he is above Dooku in terms of his abilities with lightning.

The TK feats are powerful as well but not unmatched. We see Dooku evince TK-enhanced kicks of that magnitude against Kenobi, Anakin, and others of unquestioned Force power. His Force Pushes moving people across hangars, etc, are on par with what others have demonstrated as well. Not lessening what he did, saying that it is more or less relative to a strong level Force user. Malgus cracked the bone of the soldiers that he struck; Bane's Force push on multiple occasions was unleashed at the point of being able to shatter every bone in his opponents body and liquify their very flesh. Both Kas'im and Lsu were only saved from this by channeling the Force to deflect it as well, so had it been unleashed against standard soldiers it's clear that more than just fractures would have resulted.

The last evidence of Force power is that in Bane, Sidious, Windu, Yoda, Luke, even Shan, who I think is overrated in total power, we see a mastery of the Force to the point that they demonstrate abilities that have rarely if ever been shown by others. Shan in Tutamis capable of blocking Malgus' saber bare handed, Bane in his Force Void, Sidious with his Force Storm, Yoda in his utilization of Tutamis to catch Force Lighting. We have unheard of feats demonstrated by everyone from Sadow to Exar Kun to Plageius--even in the little we learn of him--but there is nothing of this level from Malgus'. Like Dooku and Maul he is in no way weak, but we know of him simply because we were allowed a glimpse of him through the recent arc of the mythos. Dooku is never mentioned again as someone of note outside of his own era, and neither shall be Malgus. The greats all have their legacies that remain a thing of lore for those who follow, and Malgus was no great.

Malgus showed no grand feats in the areas that lead to greatness amongst Force Users. He never searched for deeper knowledge to take him beyond what he was to what he could be. He did not seek out rumors and whispers to become a Revan, or a Bane, or an Exar Kun. In Yoda, Luke, and Jacen we see Jedi who reach out to augment what they have already become. He had no great mysteries to pass on to future Sith through holocrons. His abilities are not mediocre, but neither are they legendary. Sidious uses him as an example to Vader of what a great Sith warrior can be, but not as the archetype for maintaining the Sith order; it is Bane's teachings and methods, those followed by his Master before him, that Sidious looks to for his own rule, as an example of what it is to reach the heights of the Force.

Lastly, as to the bread and butter of saber combat, in Aryn we see someone strong in the Force--but again someone not strong enough to be woven into the continuum of the Star Wars mythos--able to stand against Malgus' initial blow as he descends from the shuttle that he has just leapt from. We see her knocking him back and forcing him to give ground for a time. Contrast this to Bane. Aside from his time training in the temple before he declares himself Darth Bane there is not a single time in which he engaged in combat and was on the offensive that he didn't force his opponent back. When Kas'im confronts him in the temple on Lehon, Bane as only a Sith of a year, stands toe-to-toe with him, then pushes him back relentlessly. It is only when Bane stops to savor his victory that Kas'im is able to unleash his dual wielding and turn the tide. On Tython he remains on the offensive against a trio of battle-hardened Jedi, and continues to do so even when their weak link is called away and they are able to engage him in earnest, all the while augmented by Battle Meditation. Even when facing Zannah, an opponent who has grown up knowing the ins and outs of his abilities and who has come to challenge him for leadership of the Sith he goes on the attack from the beginning and never relents. Malgus' is not Bane's superior.

Malgus doesn't demonstrate the mental strength or capacity in the Force to have brushed off and overcome Kaan's mind domination the way Bane did. Malgus does not demonstrate the menace in the Force to cower a Sith Lor--one that all others feared for his ruthlessness--in Qoordis the way that Bane did, later crushing him in the Force as though he were nothing. The Sith were certainly weakened by infighting at the time, but there is nothing of weakness in the Jedi, and what Kopecz, Qoordis, Kaan, Kas'im and others demonstrated in surviving against them is not weak in any way. Malgus does not show the fine control in the Force necessary to channel its energies for days in order to create and stabilize a holocron. Malgus' failed in his attempts to maintain and restore the Sith order after the death of the Emperor. While Bane may have gone about it in another way, he had the foresight and drive to lay the foundation of the new Sith that would see it rise to its ultimate revenge. From Force abilities to outright tenacity he surpassed Malgus' in every estimable capacity.

^ However, Obi-Wan Kenobi for example was a legendary Jedi that would be spoken of in any era past his own, and yet I do not see anything hinting that he is far superior to Malgus. If anything, Malgus would be Kenobi's superior, would he not?

I think lifting the rubble of two buildings while injured is pretty good, up there with Dooku.

Sorry for double posting (15 min limit) but Bane's lightning turning the riders to ash are whilst wearing Orbalisks;

Bane didn't take the time to revel in the fear of his fallen enemies. Before they even hit the ground he'd turned his attention to the third opponent, unleashing a storm of Sith lightning that reduced the riders to ash and the drexl into a hunk of charred and smoking flesh that dropped from the sky.

-Rule of Two

I still don't see what makes DoE Bane superior to Malgus...

In other words, you view him as a strait-As student of the sith, but not one who pushed the field?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sorry for double posting (15 min limit) but Bane's lightning turning the riders to ash are whilst wearing Orbalisks;

Bane didn't take the time to revel in the fear of his fallen enemies. Before they even hit the ground he'd turned his attention to the third opponent, unleashing a storm of Sith lightning that reduced the riders to ash and the drexl into a hunk of charred and smoking flesh that dropped from the sky.

-Rule of Two

I still don't see what makes DoE Bane superior to Malgus...

There was literally nothing left of the rider. He was ash, and the only thing that remained of a multi-ton beast was a roasted chunk of flesh. Again, Malgus was not weak with his lightning, but his best showings are around that of what Bane demonstrated immediately after having declared himself Darth Bane. Bane's greatest showings disintegrated his humanoid targets both in RoT and DoE, as well as the technobeasts in the later part of RoT, though I'll leave that one alone since you don't want to include situations in which his Force Lightning was amped by the orbs.

Originally posted by Q99
In other words, you view him as a strait-As student of the sith, but not one who pushed the field?

I'd concede that's a pretty good way to put it. I'm going to have to pick up Deceived, but based on what Intrepid posted it seems that Malgus' is pretty much on par with or greater than Dooku in terms of lightning and somewhere around Vader's level in terms of TK, but again, he never produced anything that says his control of and affinity for the Force was beyond that of a great Sith fighter and at the level of a true Master. I mentioned the various feats of the others above. Something along those lines, something like Windu's mastery of Vaapad, young Anakin's linking with the Force against the Vong, Luke's amping and Force Illusion against Caedus, those kinds of things would make me think that he is just is at the level of the greatest Force users and not hold him only at the level of a great combatant.

I know some had their fun with the threads I mentioned earlier, but there are many legitimate arguments as to Bane's capability in the Bane vs threads that I mentioned, including some detailed posts in the Sidious thread and Windu thread as to where he falls based on what is written of him.

Maybe we'll see something other than what I expect if the threads are started, but I don't think that a 'Malgus vs Windu' thread will go remotely in the Sith's favor.

Vaapad is just a mental state Windu happened to give a name. Luke's amping and Force illusion are just techniques that can be mastered by any Force user. Anakin linked with Vongs cos of a bio-crystal.

In any case Malgus has done something unique as well. He sacrificed his love and embraced the pain it caused. Amount of anger it gave him is far better than limited brush with darkside of Vaapad or a certain Force technique mastered.

Sorry to meddle in, but I want to say that I think most of us agree that RoT Bane wins.

However, what is interesting is how DoE Bane fares against Malgus, so lets just do that fight.

Originally posted by Arhael
Vaapad is just a mental state Windu happened to give a name. Luke's amping and Force illusion are just techniques that can be mastered by any Force user. Anakin linked with Vongs cos of a bio-crystal.

In any case Malgus has done something unique as well. He sacrificed his love and embraced the pain it caused. Amount of anger it gave him is far better than limited brush with darkside of Vaapad or a certain Force technique mastered.

But Malgus did not master any higher order techniques, and none of those feats are something that some middling Force user is capable of, or even one who is strong but doesn't have beyond a high level affinity for channeling the Force.

Physically extending your presence in order to lend your power to an unseen ally and creating a Force Illusion that contains your aura to the point of convincing another person strong in the Force of your actual presence is not something that just any Force user can master. Stop being dense, you know it is not a technique that any books, manuals, etc say is easy to manifest, and especially not at that level.

All of the Sith had to sacrifice. Perhaps that's why the image of Malgus was perfect for Sidious to point to, as Vader had to do the same in his embrace of the Sith way. It was one of the whackest things in lore, but we know whom Caedus 'sacrificed' during his turning. That's the norm; uncommon manifestations of the Force are not.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Sorry to meddle in, but I want to say that I think most of us agree that RoT Bane wins.

However, what is interesting is how DoE Bane fares against Malgus, so lets just do that fight.

We can continue along those lines, but I think that's much of what we discussed. Pretty much everyone agreed with you in initial arguments that Orbalisk Bane is beyond anything Malgus could ever hope to stand against. As requested earlier I stuck to mostly examples of what Bane accomplished before or after the parasites attached to him. DoE Bane lacks the armor, but everything about the descriptions of his abilities say that he was far, far more powerful then than during his youth. His manifestations of the Force continue at that point to be beyond what I believe Malgus to be capable of handling.

I've pointed to the specifics of where I think he's lacking in a duel against Bane at the height of his power.

Unless you can show me Bane doing something rivaling that of Malgus, I stand by my argument.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Unless you can show me Bane doing something rivaling that of Malgus, I stand by my argument.

Bane's lighting left literally nothing of his opponents at it's highest manifestations, his Force Void left nothing of his opponents, he had the technical proficiency in the Force to create and even ENTER holocrons in spirit form. In terms of combat he battered down his opponents, on the offensive the entirety of almost all his battles. We have someone who seems likely to be around a high 6 to 7 in terms of sabers absorbing Malgus' attacks as they begin and for a time forcing him on the defensive before he can turn the tables. I've spelled it out, I've given you examples, I've given you quotes.

For every high showing you provided for Malgus, Bane has higher. Malgus only evinces TK, Force push, and lightning; Bane demonstrates techniques that Malgus never even sniffed at and never showed the capacity of being capable of.

You show me what Malgus did that is better than Bane's top manifestations of the Force. None of your examples are equal to what Bane unleashed. Most certainly what Malgus does not demonstrate anywhere in the examples you posted is power or speed in saber combat that is capable of overcoming what Bane showed during any point in his dueling. I conceded that his lighting might be beyond that of Dooku, but his saber prowess most certainly is not. To that point as well lighting of that level is not something that Bane would have trouble overcoming.

Malgus dies. He doesn't go out with a whimper, but it would take an extraordinary set of circumstances for him to overcome Bane.

You keep claiming stuff. If Bane is so good, why not prove it?

Shouldn't be hard. In fact, you haven't provided a single quote.
Meanwhile, I have given you all of Malgus'.

Originally posted by Intrepid37


You keep claiming stuff. If Bane is so good, why not prove it?

Shouldn't be hard. In fact, you haven't provided a single quote.
Meanwhile, I have given you all of Malgus'.

YOU QUOTED WHAT I HAD ALREADY QUOTED EARLIER. HE TURNED THE RIDERS TO ASH. THERE WAS NOTHING LEFT OF THEM BUT ASH. This is something that Malgus did not demonstrate. Malgus' does evince strong lightning, but it is nothing beyond what Lord Kopecz demonstrates when he boards the Jedi ship during the space battle, turning a Force user into a convulsing, smoking corpse.

I'm glad you took the time to copy and paste every line from Deceived, it gave great insight into Malgus' abilities. I provided the quote about Bane ashing bodies; Q99 provided you the example of Bane doing so again later. That part is in what's redacted on GBooks so I can't provide the quote, but 213 has him unleashing a Force Wave that crushes the organs of a cadre of guards surrounding him while he is still drugged.

Further, going back and looking through DoE, I had forgotten entirely about the fact that he fought almost the entire time when he was ambushed in his estate while blinded by flash grenades. Repeating what he demonstrated in his youth, killing multiple targets with single shots using only the Force to guide him, he used the Force to fight his ambushers. Look it up on Google Books if you want to read the excerpt. Starts around 161.

If you're going to act like you need every word of what was done to substantiate Bane's ability then we might as well hang this up now. All of these showings are discussed at length in other threads and are not in dispute. The only reason you needed to show anything because outside of Deceived there is nothing speaking to Malgus being of any great ability other than Sidious' referring Vader to his example. I have fully admitted that he was strong in the Force, but he does not surpass Bane. His only feats are TK, Lightning, and Force Waves, and he does not outclass Bane in any of those regards, nor does he show the higher capabilities in the Force that Bane does.

Read p148-49 in DoE and tell me if you honestly think Malgus' has the capability in the Force to enter the holocron as Bane did, overcome Andeddu's essence, and maintain the hours' long effort to rearrange the lattices to get what he seeks. He had already spent the past four days taking the device from the temple, using the Force to navigate the hyperspace lanes away from the planet, and working to unlock what was within and still manages this feat.

Now you have the pages, read to your delight. No one has argued that what I have said didn't occur, so for you to act otherwise is asinine.

That's all great. But Bane didn't reduce anyone to ash in DoE I'm 99% sure.

In choosing to argue for Malgus, I have satisfied my burden. Nothing of what you are posting makes me change my mind.

I'm not arguing against RoT Bane whilst wearing Orbalisks. I know what he's capable of. But has DoE Bane turned people to ash with his lightning? No.

Has DoE Bane disintegrated beings? No.

If you prove me wrong on either account I will concede the point.

Entering a holocron is all good. Qui-Gon became a force ghost. It's not power he's able to demonstrate in a fight.

We can agree to disagree or you can provide telekinesis showings from that of Bane that surpasses Malgus'.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That's all great. But Bane didn't reduce anyone to ash in DoE I'm 99% sure.

In choosing to argue for Malgus, I have satisfied my burden. Nothing of what you are posting makes me change my mind.

I'm not arguing against RoT Bane whilst wearing Orbalisks. I know what he's capable of. But has DoE Bane turned people to ash with his lightning? No.

Has DoE Bane disintegrated beings? No.


p110 of DoE he does exactly that. The attack is actually quite similar to what happened to Githany and everyone else who were struck by the shockwave from the Thought Bomb. The Void is described as an aura of pure dark side energy.

As he strides through the hallways using the Force he snaps the necks of those in his way without missing a step. Again, beyond anything Malgus ever demonstrates.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
p110 of DoE he does exactly that. The attack is actually quite similar to what happened to Githany and everyone else who were struck by the shockwave from the Thought Bomb. The Void is described as an aura of pure dark side energy.
Wasn't Bane amped when he used DS field?


They were Force-users or random mooks?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I'm not arguing against RoT Bane whilst wearing Orbalisks. I know what he's capable of. But has DoE Bane turned people to ash with his lightning? No.

Has DoE Bane disintegrated beings? No.

I fail to see why this is a distinction that needs to be brought up. When he disintegrated the beast riders he had only a single orbalisk attached. Given that even with his entire body covered in orbalisks there is not a notably large boost to his capabilities, its highly unlikely that a single orbalisk affected his abilities enough to completely write off the feat as you wish to.

Likewise he disintegrated a full dozen technobeats. Its obvious that he would be capable of doing it on a lesser number without the orbalisk boost. Either way, disintegration seems to me to be more an indication of mastery and skill, not power. So the orbalisks boosting his power is irrelevent imo to that aspect of the feat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I fail to see why this is a distinction that needs to be brought up. When he disintegrated the beast riders he had only a single orbalisk attached. Given that even with his entire body covered in orbalisks there is not a notably large boost to his capabilities, its highly unlikely that a single orbalisk affected his abilities enough to completely write off the feat as you wish to.

Likewise he disintegrated a full dozen technobeats. Its obvious that he would be capable of doing it on a lesser number without the orbalisk boost. Either way, disintegration seems to me to be more an indication of mastery and skill, not power. So the orbalisks boosting his power is irrelevent imo to that aspect of the feat.

It is possible. But why should I assume he can do it without when he's done nothing suggesting so?

Plagueis is my favorite character. He only used lightning twice. The first time he killed his victim. The second time he reduced his victim to dust, however he was only capable of that after absorbing a blaster bolt. Shall we assume he is capable of turning victims to ask under normal circumstances? I think not.

The above should've been ...''Shall we assume he is capable of turning victims to dust under normal circumstances''...

Intrepid, I find your attempts to low-ball or dismiss Bane's feats quite amusing.


The people in the temple who's necks he snapped were Force-sensitives amped by a nexus.







Also, that field is usable off a nexus, he just has to kill a lot of people instantly, or he is tired out. He only brought it up on a nexus when he was sure to get the first wave. However, once some people die to it, he can use their life energy to fuel it, making it last much longer. In a 1v1 fight, it is entirely viable, since being exhausted afterwards is not an issue.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Wasn't Bane amped when he used DS field?


They were Force-users or random mooks?

It's covered by Pwned and another poster just above this, but they were Force sensitives, users, and priests of Andeddu's order. It was a world where all dark siders had increased power. The passage says that it was feeding off of their essence as he destroyed them that allowed Bane to maintain it for so long. That's why elsewhere I said that I doubted Zannah could have maintained her tentacles in a gauntlet situation because they too were pure dark side energy.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It is possible. But why should I assume he can do it without when he's done nothing suggesting so?

Plagueis is my favorite character. He only used lightning twice. The first time he killed his victim. The second time he reduced his victim to dust, however he was only capable of that after absorbing a blaster bolt. Shall we assume he is capable of turning victims to ask under normal circumstances? I think not.

So you're really going to assume that he could only manifest lighting of that power if he's struck by/absorbs a bolt first? That's pretty laughable. I guess Malgus could only pull off is feats if he's facing possible death and has part of a building dropped on his head first. You're just getting silly at this point.

There are instances of other force users only being able to manifest certain powers after absorbing energy. Corran Horn most obviously.

Yeah, but I don't think a single bolt of plasma is going to be the deal breaker as to whether or not Plagueis can manifest such again.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
So you're really going to assume that he could only manifest lighting of that power if he's struck by/absorbs a bolt first? That's pretty laughable. I guess Malgus could only pull off is feats if he's facing possible death and has part of a building dropped on his head first. You're just getting silly at this point.



Absorbing bolts gives more energy. Facing death with troubled breathing... doesn't...

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Yeah, but I don't think a single bolt of plasma is going to be the deal breaker as to whether or not Plagueis can manifest such again.

True, a blaster isn't a crazy amount of energy.

Originally posted by Intrepid37


Absorbing bolts gives more energy. Facing death with troubled breathing... doesn't...

Still makes no sense. It would take a LOT of plasma to disintegrate a body. A few little bolts aren't going to take him to a level that he could not reach otherwise. Think what you want, but it's getting a bit silly trying to say "conditions must be x,y,z" for a feat to occur when there's nothing out of the ordinary going on in the situation.

I'm going by what characters have achieved under normal circumstances. If you want to go by what characters ''can'' achieve, cool, but I'm not gonna argue with that logic.

Sheet, then we're going to have to throw out half of the feats Luke managed over the years if only "normal" circumstances can be taken into account.

I think I'm done here.

No, please continue.

Why?

I wish to see you and Ascendancy clash like warring gods.

Who do you agree with?

Bane has some impressive feats, thanks to the hack writing of the most successful hack in the franchise. But I think you've defended your case very well and have brutally clobbered the Bane faction on some longstanding weaknesses. Namely, dark side nexuses/orbalisks.

People actually attempted to address any nexus feats in the past, it's been answered by providing slightly lesser showings while Bane was handicapped. The easiest to point out is him fight Zannah unarmed, and the Breakout in DoE while heavily drugged.

All I've seen is people conclude that Bane could replicate such feats outside of a nexus without evidence to support it.

As far as the feat in Andeddu's temple is concerned, DoE specifically states that Bane's opponents were not Force sensitive: "The Force did not flow through their veins; they were nothing but fodder." Only their fury was driven by the temple's dark side presence. And even on the nexus, the text notes that Bane would have been exhausted had he not also consumed the cultists' life energy as they died.

I thought everyone conceded the fact that it's not a feat he could maintain at length in any setting. I only pointed it out as an example of his understanding of the Force, as well as to show that someone who doesn't have an understanding of more arcane techniques could be in trouble against it.

Bane is one of the more powerful Force users, along with Vitiate, Sidious, Zannah, et al, who have manifested attacks that are denoted as being comprised of pure Force energy, not simply a manipulation of the flow of the Force.

I don't remember Bane winning an actual duel.

Kas'im? Won by collapsing the temple on him.

Farfalla and the other Jedi? It is implied the Orbalisks gave him a clear advantage, and even then he only managed to overpower them when Zannah distracted them.

Zannah? He had the edge most of the fight but didn't manage to do more than kick her a few times if I remember correctly. Either way Zannah is nearly featless besides beating Set Harth who is a joke.

Bane is getting overrated here.

Sirak.

Featless, if I remember correctly.

Top student of the sith academy, so we've got other academy students to compare him to. And he was good enough with the force to use some fairly advanced tricks, like force barrier.

That certainly puts Bane among the best of the best.

This is rich. Bane memorised hundreds of thousands of sequences in a short amount of time and progressed so far in his lightsaber skills that he was said to be 'beyond forms.' For all your dismissal Sirak was heralded to be the Sith'ari and yet Bane ****ing owned easily. Making him look like a complete joke. He beat Kas'im in lightsabers before the latter switched to dual blades. He tore through Zannah's 'perfect defense' with ease, said to be moving so fast that it appeared as if he wielded a dozen lightsabers at once. He charged the Jedi Strike Team so fast that only their BM enhancement saved them from being crushed, and afterwards when the BM faded he was able to push back 3 of them at the same time. He stood in a torrential downpour for 20 minutes and was able to block or dodge every single drop, emerging bone dry afterwards. Bane's skills and ability in lightsaber combat is not in question. Malgus has shown nothing to indicate that he's in Bane's league. Bane would destroy him.

Furthermore, your argument can apply to Yoda as well. Yoda's never won a single duel. He must suck.

Originally posted by Nephthys
This is rich. Bane memorised hundreds of thousands of sequences in a short amount of time and progressed so far in his lightsaber skills that he was said to be 'beyond forms.'
Statements only go so far.

Originally posted by Nephthys
For all your dismissal Sirak was heralded to be the Sith'ari and yet Bane ****ing owned easily. Making him look like a complete joke
Good for him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He beat Kas'im in lightsabers before the latter switched to dual blades..
...and when he did that, Bane was noting himself to be ''no match'' for Kas'im, if I remember correctly.


Originally posted by Nephthys
He tore through Zannah's 'perfect defense' with ease,
Statements only go so far.

Originally posted by Nephthys
said to be moving so fast that it appeared as if he wielded a dozen lightsabers at once.
Good for him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He charged the Jedi Strike Team so fast that only their BM enhancement saved them from being crushed, and afterwards when the BM faded he was able to push back 3 of them at the same time.
Had the Jedi enjoyed the same advantages Bane's orbalisk armor provided, their encounter would have ended long ago. Bane could shrug off otherwise lethal blows, forgoing all sense of personal safety in a reckless assault of pure offense to overwhelm her defenses.

-Rule of Two

Originally posted by Nephthys
He stood in a torrential downpour for 20 minutes and was able to block or dodge every single drop, emerging bone dry afterwards.
Yet couldn't outspeed Zannah who has never been noted as more than a blur if I remember correctly.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane's skills and ability in lightsaber combat is not in question. Malgus has shown nothing to indicate that he's in Bane's league. Bane would destroy him.
Your argument relies on Bane fighting featless fodder and then his speed. Not cutting it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Furthermore, your argument can apply to Yoda as well. Yoda's never won a single duel. He must suck.
Yoda, in comparison to Bane, has

a) Forced Dooku to flee on Geonosis
b) Overpowered Dooku on Vjun where he was amped
c) Disarmed Sidious
d) Confirmed superior to Mace Windu as a duelist
e) Noted as ''perhaps the best duelist the Order had ever produced''.

Yoda would crush Bane.

Double post.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Statements only go so far.

They go far enough. You can't simply ignore them.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Good for him.

It is good for him, and the duel shows how skilled Bane is, able to deal with Sirak so easily that he can fake having trouble.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
...and when he did that, Bane was noting himself to be ''no match'' for Kas'im, if I remember correctly.

Because Bane is wholly unfamiliar with the dual blades. Not for a lack of skill or ability that would be relevant here. Malgus doesn't use 2 lightsabers ordinarily.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Statements only go so far.

They go far enough. You can't simply ignore them.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Good for him.

It is. Bane's speed should allow him to handle Malgus comfortably.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Had the Jedi enjoyed the same advantages Bane's orbalisk armor provided, their encounter would have ended long ago. Bane could shrug off otherwise lethal blows, forgoing all sense of personal safety in a reckless assault of pure offense to overwhelm her defenses.

-Rule of Two

Irrelevent. The only reason this was brought up is because it was showing how recklessly the Orbalisks allowed him to fight. He wouldn't have fought like that had he not been wearing the orbalisks.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Yet couldn't outspeed Zannah who has never been noted as more than a blur if I remember correctly.

He was able to dodge her lightsaber unarmed and in the duel later he was pushing her back. And again, him not being able to overwhelm her simply means that she was an impressive combatant with an impressive defense. Defending herself against Bane is all the proof we need that she was impressively fast.

Also she does note his high speed.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Your argument relies on Bane fighting featless fodder and then his speed. Not cutting it.

While yours is......... remind me again what Malgus has done thats so impressive you think he can beat one of the top duelists in the mythos?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Yoda, in comparison to Bane, has

a) Forced Dooku to flee on Geonosis
b) Overpowered Dooku on Vjun where he was amped
c) Disarmed Sidious
d) Confirmed superior to Mace Windu as a duelist
e) Noted as ''perhaps the best duelist the Order had ever produced''.

Yoda would crush Bane.

But he never actually won a duel. It funny how you can ignore the impressive aspects of Bane's fights and not Yoda's.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They go far enough. You can't simply ignore them.
Agen Kolar has been refered to be ''among the best duelists the Order had ever produced'' but his only showing is beating Vos.



Originally posted by Nephthys
It is good for him, and the duel shows how skilled Bane is, able to deal with Sirak so easily that he can fake having trouble.
I forgot Sirak is one of the most skilled duelists in the mythos.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Because Bane is wholly unfamiliar with the dual blades. Not for a lack of skill or ability that would be relevant here. Malgus doesn't use 2 lightsabers ordinarily.
True he doesn't. Kas'im is completely featless however. The best he's got going for him is being a blademaster like Kao.



Originally posted by Nephthys
hey go far enough. You can't simply ignore them.
Agen Kolar has been refered to be ''among the best duelists the Order had ever produced'' but his only showing is beating Vos.



Originally posted by Nephthys
It is. Bane's speed should allow him to handle Malgus comfortably.
Prove it.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Irrelevent. The only reason this was brought up is because it was showing how recklessly the Orbalisks allowed him to fight. He wouldn't have fought like that had he not been wearing the orbalisks.
...and he's not wearing Orbalisks in the fight we're imagining.



Originally posted by Nephthys
He was able to dodge her lightsaber unarmed and in the duel later he was pushing her back. And again, him not being able to overwhelm her simply means that she was an impressive combatant with an impressive defense.
You're trying to make Bane sound good by going with his fight with Zannah. In that case you need to prove how good she is and you can't do that by refering to her fight with Bane.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Defending herself against Bane is all the proof we need that she was impressively fast.
Same as above. Prove she was ''impressively fast'' without taking her fight with Bane into account.

Originally posted by Nephthys
While yours is......... remind me again what Malgus has done thats so impressive you think he can beat one of the top duelists in the mythos?

Pretty sure I have already agreed that they're fairly equal in dueling.


Originally posted by Nephthys
But he never actually won a duel. It funny how you can ignore the impressive aspects of Bane's fights and not Yoda's.
And I fight it quite amusing that you ignore Yoda disarming Sidious.

Actually, he can] refer to that fight, as the proof is in the descriptive text from the author, otherwise known as an All-knowing observer.

You still need to answer several of his questions, btw.



IIRC, Kolar was one of the ones that went to fight Sidious. Being that the narrator called them some of the best, he is one of the best.

Originally posted by Pwned
Being that the narrator called them some of the best, he is one of the best.
Point is, being ''beyond forms'', having ''near-perfect skills'' or an ''impenetrable defense'' isn't gonna put you above warriors with impressive feats in combat.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Point is, being ''beyond forms'', having ''near-perfect skills'' or an ''impenetrable defense'' isn't gonna put you above warriors with impressive feats in combat.

It does when your showings back it up. Zannah survived against and eventually killed a knight, apprenticed to the greatest Jedi duelist of the era, who can be described as nothing less than a hulk, and his massive size belied his speed. Not only was he strong, but his bladework was ridiculously quick. Despite this, Zannah was able to keep every stroke at bay and only came close to defeat because of his sheer strength, which Bane told her from her youth would be what she would have to guard against.

As to Bane, his feats really do speak for themselves. I'm also not sure how you try to claim he never won a duel. He killed Sirak, tooled Qoordis despite the decades of combat the Dark Lord had, he cut down a Sith Adept and a number of Shadow Assassins cloaked in the Force as though they were nothing--a trap that likely would have cost Malgus his life-- and he most certainly defeated Farfalla when he cut the Jedi's head off.

He also most certainly won the saber portion of combat against Zannah every time they engaged. She notes the sheer power and skill of his blade work, and it remains quite relevant considering what she herself survived.

You aren't making a point. Set Harth, Qoordis and Sirak are, as of now, below Ki-Adi Mundi in both combat showings and force showings. They are nothing but fodder.

Yeah, clearly the headmaster of the school they send the strongest Sith to would be weak. Its not as if Sith resort to infighting or anything.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Agen Kolar has been refered to be ''among the best duelists the Order had ever produced'' but his only showing is beating Vos.

Whats your point?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I forgot Sirak is one of the most skilled duelists in the mythos.

An opponent can be skilled and impressive without being the most elite ever. In this case it demonstrates Banes sheer lightsaber ability that he's able to toy with an opponent so powerful people suspected him of being the Sith'ari, who even Lord Kaan was made aware of.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
True he doesn't. Kas'im is completely featless however. The best he's got going for him is being a blademaster like Kao.

Completely featless other than that he's mastered basically all forms of lightsaber combat, to the highest degree, in all the Forms, as well as creating thousands of sequences for each form/lightsaber style. But yeah, he's probably not that skilled. I'd give a B, solid B+.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Agen Kolar has been refered to be ''among the best duelists the Order had ever produced'' but his only showing is beating Vos.

Ascendancy is already taking you to task for this.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove it.

...... Huh? It's.... just logical that Bane's speed should let him handle Malgus. Malgus isn't as fast as he is, which gives Bane a huge advantage in lightsaber combat. If Malgus can't keep up with Bane's blade, he dies. Thats it. I've already proven that Bane is amazingly fast, right now its your task to prove that Malgus can handle Bane's speed. What, do you think in a fight where a single hit cuts off limbs that it won't matter?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
...and he's not wearing Orbalisks in the fight we're imagining.

Yes.

So why did you bring it up? You pointed out that Bane would have died if not for the orbalisks, which I countered by pointing out that the text notes that this is because Bane was being reckless due to the orbalisks and that Bane wouldn't be so reckless if not for the orbalisks. Making your entire point....

http://newnation.sg/wp-content/uploads/notepad.jpg

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You're trying to make Bane sound good by going with his fight with Zannah. In that case you need to prove how good she is and you can't do that by refering to her fight with Bane.

No I'm not. You're trying to make him sound bad by pointing out that he couldn't outspeed her, by which I pointed out that he was able to dance around her without a lightsaber and was pushing her back. Indicating that he was outspeeding her.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Same as above. Prove she was ''impressively fast'' without taking her fight with Bane into account.

No. I'd much rather do it with taking her fight by Bane into account. Bane is impressively fast. Thats fact, I've already proven it by pointing out that he appeared to wield a dozen blades at once and was able to block every raindrop in a torrential storm from hitting him. Zannah being able to parry his at7tacks proves that she's impressively fast, or that her defense is so impressive that it nullifies speed.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Pretty sure I have already agreed that they're fairly equal in dueling.

Well you're wrong. So I ask you: 'Remind me again what Malgus has done thats so impressive you think he can beat draw with one of the top duelists in the mythos?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
And I fight it quite amusing that you ignore Yoda disarming Sidious.

Mostly because I don't really care about what happens in the script. Lucas didn't put it in for a reason, so I don't care about it.

All that I am seeing here is Intrepid trying to low-ball Bane is any way imaginable.


+1 Internets for you, Neph.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Whats your point?

Ascendancy is already taking you to task for this.
The points he brought up matters not. Beating Set Harth, a complete joke Means nothing. Being trained by Bane isn't a feat. Defending herself against a strong guy isn't anything.



Originally posted by Nephthys
An opponent can be skilled and impressive without being the most elite ever. In this case it demonstrates Banes sheer lightsaber ability that he's able to toy with an opponent so powerful people suspected him of being the Sith'ari, who even Lord Kaan was made aware of.
Not sure if I'm supposed to be impressed...?


Originally posted by Nephthys
Completely featless other than that he's mastered basically all forms of lightsaber combat, to the highest degree, in all the Forms, as well as creating thousands of sequences for each form/lightsaber style. But yeah, he's probably not that skilled. I'd give a B, solid B+.
I forgot mastering all forms makes you a beast in combat. Sorry for that.


Originally posted by Nephthys
...... Huh? It's.... just logical that Bane's speed should let him handle Malgus. Malgus isn't as fast as he is, which gives Bane a huge advantage in lightsaber combat. If Malgus can't keep up with Bane's blade, he dies. Thats it. I've already proven that Bane is amazingly fast, right now its your task to prove that Malgus can handle Bane's speed. What, do you think in a fight where a single hit cuts off limbs that it won't matter?

1. His Force-enhanced reflexes moved faster than their trigger fingers. Without slowing his pace, he pulled his lightsaber into his hand and activated it as the blasters discharged. The red line of his weapon spun so fast in his hand it expanded into a shield.

2. Adraas loosed a flurry of strikes, his blade a humming, red blur as he spun, stabbed, slashed, and cut. Malgus backed off a single step, another, then held his ground, his own blade an answer to all of Adraas's attacks. Adraas shouted as he attacked, the sound that of desperation, filled with the knowledge that he was no match for Malgus.

Finally Malgus answered with an attack of his own, forcing Adraas back with the power and speed of his blows.

3. He closed the distance between them rapidly. The red line of Malgus's lightsaber moved so quickly it blurred into a red smear.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes.

So why did you bring it up? You pointed out that Bane would have died if not for the orbalisks, which I countered by pointing out that the text notes that this is because Bane was being reckless due to the orbalisks and that Bane wouldn't be so reckless if not for the orbalisks. Making your entire point....

http://newnation.sg/wp-content/uploads/notepad.jpg

confused

Have you really not understood that I'm arguing against DoE Bane?

Originally posted by Nephthys
No I'm not. You're trying to make him sound bad by pointing out that he couldn't outspeed her, by which I pointed out that he was able to dance around her without a lightsaber and was pushing her back. Indicating that he was outspeeding her.
When did he dance around her without a lightsaber...?


Originally posted by Nephthys
No. I'd much rather do it with taking her fight by Bane into account. Bane is impressively fast. Thats fact, I've already proven it by pointing out that he appeared to wield a dozen blades at once and was able to block every raindrop in a torrential storm from hitting him. Zannah being able to parry his at7tacks proves that she's impressively fast, or that her defense is so impressive that it nullifies speed.
I was talking about Bane evading raindrops, not Bane looking to wield more lightsabers.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Well you're wrong. So I ask you: 'Remind me again what Malgus has done thats so impressive you think he can beat draw with one of the top duelists in the mythos?
Malgus' dueling feats are just as good as Bane's.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Mostly because I don't really care about what happens in the script. Lucas didn't put it in for a reason, so I don't care about it.
Ignoring canon isn't gonna help your case here.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The points he brought up matters not. Beating Set Harth, a complete joke Means nothing. Being trained by Bane isn't a feat. Defending herself against a strong guy isn't anything.

You're really going to tell me that Lsu would train a sub-par duelist, and further that she and Farfalla after all their experience in the war would choose someone of lesser ability to aid them in taking down the last known Sith, whom they fully understand to be more than capable fighters and Force users? That doesn't make any sense.



So you're really going to act as though he's a no one, despite whom he was trained by, despite the description of his ability, despite the description of the fight and his speed, and then try and claim that we should consider anyone that Malgus fought a worthy adversary and of value in proving his abilities? No joke, if that's what this is going to come down to then no one Malgus faced proves anything in terms of him being a worthwhile combatant.

Originally posted by Intrepid37

When did he dance around her without a lightsaber...?



When he escaped from the dungeon, ashed the guards, and fought her while unarmed and still drugged. It's a fight that's been mentioned more than once in the thread, and is without question an amazing display of ability.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
So you're really going to act as though he's a no one, despite whom he was trained by, despite the description of his ability, despite the description of the fight and his speed, and then try and claim that we should consider anyone that Malgus fought a worthy adversary and of value in proving his abilities? No joke, if that's what this is going to come down to then no one Malgus faced proves anything in terms of him being a worthwhile combatant.


Am I claiming he's a nobody?

No.

Am I claiming Malgus have fought better opponents?

No.

You are claiming he's a better duelist because the foes he's beaten when in fact they're just as featless as Malgus'.

I have already agreed to them being equal in dueling, so if you want to say otherwise, prove it.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
When he escaped from the dungeon, ashed the guards, and fought her while unarmed and still drugged. It's a fight that's been mentioned more than once in the thread, and is without question an amazing display of ability.
RoT or DoE?

Something of an aside, I'm following this thread and can't help but noting my Legacy characters are actually a good deal easier to back up, with almost everyone having fought multiple feated foes, and sometimes even chains of 'beat X feated character who beat Y feated character who beat Z feated character'.

It's a lot harder with these characters who've only been in two novels or one video game, even if it is a big one.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
RoT or DoE? It was in DoE. If you'd have payed attention to any other posts earlier in the thread, this was brought up several times.

Originally posted by Pwned
It was in DoE. If you'd have payed attention to any other posts earlier in the thread, this was brought up several times.
So he's faster than Zannah. Not sure how that makes him faster than Malgus...?

It makes him fast enough to fight a powerful Sith Lord who's whole style of fighting relies on speed and agility.

From what I've seen, Malgus has never shown even CLOSE to the speed that Zannah alone has.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
So he's faster than Zannah. Not sure how that makes him faster than Malgus...?

He managed to avoid the sabers of a dual blade that is described as an impenetrable wall, and does this while in an enclosed hallway.

Regardless, what makes him faster than Malgus is every description of the speed of his blade, i.e., "seeming to wield twelve sabers at once," stopping every drop of rain in a torrential downpour, even his speed displayed when going against Sirak at the academy. You can't really argue against what are very specific descriptions of immense speed during combat, far beyond his blade simply being a blur.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Statements only go so far


...and when he did that, Bane was noting himself to be ''no match'' for Kas'im, if I remember correctly.


Had the Jedi enjoyed the same advantages Bane's orbalisk armor provided, their encounter would have ended long ago. Bane could shrug off otherwise lethal blows, forgoing all sense of personal safety in a reckless assault of pure offense to overwhelm her defenses.

-Rule of Two


Yoda, in comparison to Bane, has

a) Forced Dooku to flee on Geonosis
b) Overpowered Dooku on Vjun where he was amped
c) Disarmed Sidious
d) Confirmed superior to Mace Windu as a duelist
e) Noted as ''perhaps the best duelist the Order had ever produced''.

Yoda would crush Bane.

Your argument is flawed. Your response to many arguments is "Statements only go so far". Fair enough, so let's see your counters.

-A statement saying that the Jedi could have won with Orbalisks.
-A statement saying Bane was no match for Kas'im.
-A statement saying Yoda>Windu as a duelist
-A statement saying Yoda was the best duelist

That's in this post alone. Your argument, by your rules, is completely invalid.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
-A statement saying that the Jedi could have won with Orbalisks.
Bad comparison.

Marek's skill being ''near perfect'' means shit, same goes for Bane being ''beyond forms'' or whatever poop. It means they're skilled duelists, but these statements + victory over featless fodder doesn't mean you're super awesome.

The quote I posted isn't a characters opinion, it's the god damn narrator stating something.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
-A statement saying Bane was no match for Kas'im.
Please. It was Bane's mere opinion.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
-A statement saying Yoda>Windu as a duelist

a) canon statement? Check.
b) Not an opinion from a in-universe character? Check.
c) No hyperbole? Check.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
-A statement saying Yoda was the best duelist
Same as above.

Weak excuses. The Bane novels are also canon sources. Many of the above used statements were also not character opinions, yet you discounted them.

It all boils down to you discounting them because you think they're ridiculous. Your argument in support of Malgus is great, and I agree that he would give Bane a run for his money, however, your argument against Bane simply is not convincing.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Marek's skill being ''near perfect'' means shit

How can you possibly say that? I acknowledge the ambiguity and hyperbole there, but even so that is an amazingly great description of his skills that puts him up there as likely one of the most technically talented duelists in the mythos. Certainly Malgus has never received such praise, nor anything to indicate that he even approaches that level of ability.

Zannah's only beat Set Harth who is featless. Because she's got ''near impenetrable defenses'' are you really gonna tell me that Yoda is gonna have a hard time defeating her in combat?

Originally posted by Nephthys
How can you possibly say that? I acknowledge the ambiguity and hyperbole there, but even so that is an amazingly great description of his skills that puts him up there as likely one of the most technically talented duelists in the mythos. Certainly Malgus has never received such praise, nor anything to indicate that he even approaches that level of ability.

Sure. He is a good duelist, no doubt. But the statement implies only that he is a good duelist, not that he's above anyone else.

If his skills are ''near perfect'', then Shaak Ti's are even nearer, and Grievous' are even more nearer, and Dooku's would be literally ''perfect'', and Yoda would be... beyond perfect?

Are you comparing Malgus with Yoda?

I would say that if that description was all we knew and it came from an omniscient narrator, yeah he'd probably take some time to get past that. 'Near impenetrable' isn't something you shrug your ****ing shoulders at. It means that even the best would find it a challenge.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sure. He is a good duelist, no doubt. But the statement implies only that he is a good duelist, not that he's above anyone else.

If his skills are ''near perfect'', then Shaak Ti's are even nearer, and Grievous' are even more nearer, and Dooku's would be literally ''perfect'', and Yoda would be... beyond perfect?

I never said that he was.

Not true. They can be his superior without being superior in lightsaber skill, so long as they are simple faster and better than him. Technical ability is not everything. Unfortunately for Malgus, nothing indicates that he's faster or otherwise superior to Marek.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Are you comparing Malgus with Yoda?
...no?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I would say that if that description was all we knew and it came from an omniscient narrator, yeah he'd probably take some time to get past that. 'Near impenetrable' isn't something you shrug your ****ing shoulders at. It means that even the best would find it a challenge.

a) Where was it actually stated?

b) Kenobi was ''the master of Soresu'' yet has been put on his ass multiple times.

a) I'm pretty sure it was from Zannah's PoV in DoE and RoT.

b) Whats your point?

Originally posted by Nephthys
a) I'm pretty sure it was from Zannah's PoV in DoE and RoT.

b) Whats your point?

a) Are you seriously using Zannah own opinion to make a point?

b) Mace's opinion of Kenobi is as invalid as is the statement of Zannah (apparantly her own?)

a) No, hence why I said 'if'.

b) Being the master of Soresu isn't the same as having impenetrable defense. But no, it isn't 'invalid', as it is high praise, It is simply not 100% true facts.

Being 'the master of Soresu' is as good as having a ''nearly impenetrable defense''.

No it isn't. Again you are ignoring the disparity between technical ability (how much one has mastered a form of combat) and overall combat ability. Just because Obi-Wan is an excellent Soresu master does not mean he cannot be overwhelmed by people much more powerful than him.

'Nearly impenetrable defense' on the other hand is a flat description of combat ability, encompassing all elements of swordplay.

Oh and by the way, the description of Galen having 'near perfect' lightsaber ability comes from the database in the first game. AKA directly from the games creators and is thus infallible.

Originally posted by Nephthys
'Nearly impenetrable defense' on the other hand is a flat description of combat ability, encompassing all elements of swordplay.
Nah. I found the conversation in Rule of Two.

"Crip the handle lightly in your fingers. Control the weapon with your wrist and hand rather than the muscles of your arm. You will sacrifice reach and leverage, but you will be able to create a shield of impenetrable defense."

"Defense will not slay my enemy," Zannah remarked, smoothly transferring the spinning crimson blades from her left hand to her right and back again.

"You lack the physical strength required for the powerful attacking strikes of Djem So or the other aggressive forms" her Master explained. "You must rely on quickness, cunning and, most of all, patience to best your enemies."

First off, it doesn't note that her defense was impenetrable, only that by combining a double-bladed lightsaber and Soresu she'd be able to make it impenetrable.

Second, she lacks physical strength and relies on cunning and patience, so I don't see how it refers to ''all elements of swordplay''.

Third, it's mentioned as ''impenetrable'', not ''nearly impenetrable''.

Big hyperbole.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh and by the way, the description of Galen having 'near perfect' lightsaber ability comes from the database in the first game. AKA directly from the games creators and is thus infallible. '
Apparantly you haven't gotten the point.

Marek having ''near perfect'' lightsaber ability means he's good, but it doesn't mean he's better than a lot of other combatants.

He was only overwhelming Maris Brood when he changed his style who didn't even know what it meant.

Big hyperbole.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Nah. I found the conversation in Rule of Two.

"Crip the handle lightly in your fingers. Control the weapon with your wrist and hand rather than the muscles of your arm. You will sacrifice reach and leverage, but you will be able to create a shield of impenetrable defense."

"Defense will not slay my enemy," Zannah remarked, smoothly transferring the spinning crimson blades from her left hand to her right and back again.

"You lack the physical strength required for the powerful attacking strikes of Djem So or the other aggressive forms" her Master explained. "You must rely on quickness, cunning and, most of all, patience to best your enemies."

First off, it doesn't note that her defense was impenetrable, only that by combining a double-bladed lightsaber and Soresu she'd be able to make it impenetrable.

Second, she lacks physical strength and relies on cunning and patience, so I don't see how it refers to ''all elements of swordplay''.

Third, it's mentioned as ''impenetrable'', not ''nearly impenetrable''.

Big hyperbole.

It's mentioned a few times more:

'She scrambled to her feet and twirled her lightsaber before her, creating what she hoped would be an impenetrable wall of defense. Instead of trying to pierce her guard, Bane leapt high in the air and came down almost right on top of her. She deftly parried his blade, redirecting it to the side as she spun away to keep his body from slamming into her. But Bane caught her on the chin with his elbow as she turned, the blow snapping her head back. Her body went limp, her weapon dropped from her nerveless fingers, and she crumpled to the ground.'

'The man with the green lightsaber saved her. He leapt in to finish her off, blocking his companion from doing the same. Against his pedestrian assault she was able to regain her feet and slide into the sequence of moves that were the foundation of her virtually impenetrable style.'

And in DoE:

'Zannah wasn't used to being the aggressor. In all the times she and Bane had sparred he had been the one pressing the action. Her lightsaber style was built on a foundation of parries and counterstrikes, hiding behind her virtually impenetrable defense while waiting for her opponent to make a mistake.'

'The next exchange had a more familiar feel. Bane pressed the action with a devastating, complex combination of attacks, but Zannah was able to intercept, parry, or deflect each one. Her defensive style was simple, but performed correctly it was nearly impenetrable.'

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Apparantly you haven't gotten the point.

Marek having ''near perfect'' lightsaber ability means he's good, but it doesn't mean he's better than a lot of other combatants.

He was only overwhelming Maris Brood when he changed his style who didn't even know what it meant.

Big hyperbole.

I never said that it did make him better than them. All I've said is that its a fantastic bit of praise and is better than anything mentioned about Malgus in terms of skill. I then backed up my point with the observation that Malgus has neither a speed not strength advantage over Marek and that Marek has defeated opponents with actual accolades and feats under their belts. Without an advantage to off-set Mareks skill, I can comfortably conclude Malgus' defeat.

Yes it is likely hyperbole. So what? Hyperbole isn't completely irrelevant, especially since that's a pretty unambiguous statement altogether.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's mentioned a few times more:

Alright. Seems to me it was the style (Soresu) that was nearly impenetrable. But thanks for the quotes.

It's not irrelevant, but not decisive.

Agreed?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I never said that it did make him better than them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
All I've said is that its a fantastic bit of praise and is better than anything mentioned about Malgus in terms of skill.
Sure.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I then backed up my point with the observation that Malgus has neither a speed not strength advantage over Marek and that Marek has defeated opponents with actual accolades and feats under their belts.
Who has Marek defeated that is worth of note? In a strict duel?

Please don't say Vader.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Without an advantage to off-set Mareks skill, I can comfortably conclude Malgus' defeat.
In a all-out fight? Maybe. Probably. But in a strict duel? No.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes it is likely hyperbole. So what? Hyperbole isn't completely irrelevant, especially since that's a pretty unambiguous statement altogether.
It isn't irrelevant but it's not desicive either.

Agreed?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's not irrelevant, but not decisive.

Agreed?

TBH I don't even know why we're talking about this, but sure.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sure.

Sigh. Do I need to spell everything out for you? I meant that I didn't claim that it made him better than 'a lot of other combatants.' Only Malgus.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Who has Marek defeated that is worth of note? In a strict duel?

Please don't say Vader.

Darth Vader. He is easily superior to anyone Malgus has defeated. He actually has, you know, feats and evidence his side? You know, unlike some people?

Whoops.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
In a all-out fight? Maybe. Probably. But in a strict duel? No.

Why not? What the hell has Malgus done that makes you so hungry for his cock? All he has are those trailers, which look flashy but offer very little in the way of context or analysis of his abilities.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It isn't irrelevant but it's not desicive either.

Agreed?

No, its pretty decisive.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sigh. Do I need to spell everything out for you? I meant that I didn't claim that it made him better than 'a lot of other combatants.' Only Malgus'.
The ''Sure'' wasn't... sarcastic... I actually agreed it's higher praise than whatever Malgus has received...


Originally posted by Nephthys
Darth Vader. He is easily superior to anyone Malgus has defeated. He actually has, you know, feats and evidence his side? You know, unlike some people?

Whoops.

We went over this in the other thread.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Why not? What the hell has Malgus done that makes you so hungry for his cock?
Are you 12? Cut off this shit.

Originally posted by Nephthys
All he has are those trailers, which look flashy but offer very little in the way of context or analysis of his abilities.
He also has deceived.

...Galen Marek is a motherf***ing Force prodigy. He could best Malgus pretty easily. His height, his acrobacy, his speed, his Force power, his saber styles, his lightsaber, and--of course--Force repulse are all advantages.

He could beat him as easily as he could Savage Opress. He could've killed Satele and that Zabrak on his own quite handily in his own 'Return' trailer at apprentice-level, and seeing his evolvement, Malgus would lose to Galen like Ventress did to Dooku.

Malgus is managing all those operations on the Vaiken spacedock when Galen could be doing all of that himself. Galen defeated tons of Jedi Masters/Dark Jedi/Sith for and against Vader. Malgus is being cheesy and sitting on his throne like a fatass declaring himself new Emperor when suddenly a Republic/Imperial strike team comes aboard and kills him. I can see Galen doing all of that by himself, and taking his place as Emperor rightfully.

Malgus can go suck an egg (which his head is shaped like.) Galen galen GALEN! Deal with it, he wins, and your fanlike, over-glorified nature of thinking about Malgus doesn't get you anywhere in this argument. Even I don't really pay attention to Galen anymore, but you renewed my interest, and I just realized how much better he is than Malgus.

Bonus: Zannah</=Satele Shan>>>Malgus

Scenario 1: Bane dominates thoroughly (End of DOE).
Scenario 2: Bane wins with no effort (ROT).

Seriously? Bane is a monstrosity, in combat he was by far the most ferocious Sith Lord, a rival in endurance to Malgus, then add his greater knowledge of the Dark Side, approaching Vitiate's and Palpatine's, and he annihilates Malgus.

With the Orbalisks he'd take down the Sith Emperor and NJO Luke.

Shaak Ti is a notable defeat on Galen's part. While at first look, Shaak Ti doesn't seem all that special, she's really stronger than most give her credit for.

Firstly, she was able to influence and empower the inhabitants of a large section of a planet to fight off Starkiller in TFU, showing her mastery of the Force. She was even capable of controlling the Sarlaac. Not to mention her offensive Force attacks she displayed in her battle with Starkiller.

Secondly, as we can see in SW:CW, she was able to fend off a tremendously large group of MagnaGuards with her lightsaber skills, and was noted by Dooku that by the time of LoE, despite her loss to Grievous in the early stages of the Clone Wars, Shaak Ti was an opponent that Grievous could not overcome in a duel in Dooku's perspective.

Finally, Obi-Wan Kenobi noted Shaak Ti as an even more cunning Jedi than himself, and even noted that many of his tricks that he uses were taken from her originally.

It can also be noted that by the time she was put on the Council, she was relatively young in comparison to many of the other members, which may point to her being a prodigy. This is further backed up by the fact that by the time of TFU, even Vader was quite wary of her powers.

Starkiller, before he finished his training, was able to defeat Shaak Ti by himself, and only grew more powerful from then on. And as Nephthys pointed out, he also defeated Vader when he was at his peak. Starkiller is far from feat-less.


Though I will say Starkiller vs Malgus is a somewhat debatable fight.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Shaak Ti is a notable defeat on Galen's part. While at first look, Shaak Ti doesn't seem all that special, she's really stronger than most give her credit for.

Firstly, she was able to influence and empower the inhabitants of a large section of a planet to fight off Starkiller in TFU, showing her mastery of the Force. She was even capable of controlling the Sarlaac. Not to mention her offensive Force attacks she displayed in her battle with Starkiller.

Secondly, as we can see in SW:CW, she was able to fend off a tremendously large group of MagnaGuards with her lightsaber skills, and was noted by Dooku that by the time of LoE, despite her loss to Grievous in the early stages of the Clone Wars, Shaak Ti was an opponent that Grievous could not overcome in a duel in Dooku's perspective.

Finally, Obi-Wan Kenobi noted Shaak Ti as an even more cunning Jedi than himself, and even noted that many of his tricks that he uses were taken from her originally.

It can also be noted that by the time she was put on the Council, she was relatively young in comparison to many of the other members, which may point to her being a prodigy. This is further backed up by the fact that by the time of TFU, even Vader was quite wary of her powers.

Starkiller, before he finished his training, was able to defeat Shaak Ti by himself, and only grew more powerful from then on. And as Nephthys pointed out, he also defeated Vader when he was at his peak. Starkiller is far from feat-less.


Though I will say Starkiller vs Malgus is a somewhat debatable fight.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t578704.html

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The ''Sure'' wasn't... sarcastic... I actually agreed it's higher praise than whatever Malgus has received...

Lies.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Shaak Ti is a notable defeat on Galen's part.

Except for the fact that he won, you mean.

?

Originally posted by Ben "cA" Risa
Lies.
No.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
?

Ah, he meant as in that Galen defeated her. I misinterpreted that.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Please. I don't recall Bane killing anyone with lightning in DoE without a nexus enhancing him. Malgus, on the other hand, has done so, without any enhancement.

Who was this?

A Jedi Knight in a short story set after the Alderaan trailer. The guy was apparantly pretty boss given that he collapsed 2 buildings on Malgus. Also a few in the Sacking of Coruscant.

I don't understand the reason to lowball Malgus. He have struck down extremely skilled foes in single combat and survived against heavy-odds on several occasions. He have tolerated powerful explosives, lightsaber stabs and even cliff-shattering surge of energy unleashed by Satele shan. In addition, he have handled buildings collapsing around him; something that even Vader and Kas'im couldn't do under similar circumstances.

You deserve a cigar.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't understand the reason to lowball Malgus. He have struck down extremely skilled foes in single combat and survived against heavy-odds on several occasions. He have tolerated powerful explosives, lightsaber stabs and even cliff-shattering surge of energy unleashed by Satele shan. In addition, he have handled buildings collapsing around him; something that even Vader and Kas'im couldn't do under similar circumstances.

A regular trooper also tanked the same detonator blast that Malgus did, and he also survived Malgus' lightning. No one is low-balling him, we're just pointing out that while his feats are not weak, he is not on the top tier of Dark Lords.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You deserve a cigar.
Thanks, but I don't smoke.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
A regular trooper also tanked the same detonator blast that Malgus did,
Sometimes people get lucky; tolerance capacity varies from person to person.

As an example, this man survived 7 bullets: http://www.standard.net/stories/2013/01/13/kaysville-man-who-survived-7-bullets-credits-god-police-and-2-armed-citizens

How many people do you think would have survived in his place?

Heck, look at this example: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/09/01/afghan-soldier-took-14-5mm-bullet-to-head-and-survived/

How many people do you think would have survived in his place?

------

The regular trooper in question here was wearing a Durasteel armor. This level of protection may have afforded him survival against a grenade blast.

------

Prior to this grenade event, Malgus tolerated a direct SLM hit; same SLM destroyed everything else it touched during the battle.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
and he also survived Malgus' lightning.
Malgus could be just torturing him.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
No one is low-balling him, we're just pointing out that while his feats are not weak, he is not on the top tier of Dark Lords.
Book of Sith lists Malgus as one of the strongest predecessors of Sidious. SWTORE promotes Malgus as one of the Sith Order's greatest warriors.

Heck, Sidious regards Malgus as a role-model for Vader to follow.

Sidious regards Malgus as a role-model because, IIRC, Malgus did not harbor extreme ambitions to take over. He followed orders like a soldier with the Force and a lightsaber. This fits with how Sidious planned to be immortal and have the Chosen One serve him until death.



Meanwhile, he doesn't encourage Vader to be like Bane due to the fact that Bane manipulated the Sith into all dying so he could take over. He also was more powerful than any at the time. Go figure.

Indeed. We discussed earlier in the thread those very reasons that Sidious wanted Vader to emulate Malgus, Legend.

Bane.

Despite Malgus' superior physical strength/speed/durability (Orbalisk armor removed from the equation) and Oneness with the dark side, Bane is more clever, slightly more skilled in combat, he is more talented and possesses vastly superior telekinetic abilities, superior Force lightning, a superior array of powers, etc. I'd say he'd actually exhaust his Force reservoir before Malgus, but by that point I'd say Malgus is more in ruin than he was against Satele Shan.

SWLegend is beginning to strike me as an almost unreasonably biased supporter of SWTOR characters in Versus debates.