Darth Vader's sith gauntlet

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Intrepid37
RotJ Vader. Four hours of rest between each match. No preparation, setting is the Invisible Hand where Dooku lost his head. All his enemies are at their peak unless stated otherwise.

1. Darth Malak
2. TCW Darth Maul
3. Darth Krayt
4. PoD Darth Bane
5. Darth Malgus
6. Count Dooku
7. Darth Plagueis

I see him go down between 4-6.

smokin'

axel_jovan
Dies at 6 or 7.

Vensai
I don't know enough about Malak to say anything, but Vader loses at 2 for sure. TPM Maul was handily beating Vader.

Q99
Lesse, Plagueis definitely beats him, but 3-6 all aren't very far apart in power and have their chance.

It's a case where he probably stops in that range, but it's rather hard to tell just which one. Might be Krayt. If he beats Krayt, he's likely to have taken damage and fall to Bane, but if he manages to beat Krayt without serious damage he may do the same to Bane, and so on.

Based
5 or 6.

Q99
So, do people really put Dooku above Bane and the like?

Intrepid37
Why not? Most of the good stuff done by Bane is with Orbalisks or when he's enhanced by a nexus.

Q99
Still, he was a senior sith master and fought quite a few very powerful foes, like Ka'sim and the Jedi hit squad and Zannah.

Intrepid37
Not saying he isn't powerful even as of DoE. Being lesser than Dooku doesn't indicate that, but, to be honest, Kas'im is rather featless and Zannah without her Sorcery isn't anything special.

Galan007
Unless this is purely a force contest, Vader gets decisively stomped at 2.

As mentioned, TPM Maul had the clear advantage when he and Vader battled in SW Tales-- and CW Maul>>TPM Maul.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Galan007
Unless this is purely a force contest, Vader gets decisively stomped at 2.

As mentioned, TPM Maul had the clear advantage when he and Vader battled in SW Tales-- and CW Maul>>TPM Maul.

It doesn't need to be a purely Force contest for Vader to beat TCW!Maul. It will need to be a purely sword contest for Vader to get "decisively stomped."

Galan007
Historically, how often has OT Vader employed the force (offensively) while engaged in saber-to-saber combat with another force-wielding character? Is it 'in character' for him to do so? Because I know that he certainly didn't use the force to dominate Maul during their last 'all-out' battle . /shrug

Furthermore, we know superior saber skills can bridge substantial gaps in force power-- a fact Kas'im commented on quite plainly: "Someone well trained in lightsaber combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the Force."

Zampanó
Originally posted by Galan007
Historically, how often has OT Vader employed the force (offensively) while engaged in saber-to-saber combat with another force-wielding character? Is it 'in character' for him to do so? Because I know that he certainly didn't use the force to dominate Maul during their last 'all-out' battle . /shrug

Furthermore, we know superior saber skills can bridge substantial gaps in force power-- a fact Kas'im commented on quite plainly: "Someone well trained in lightsaber combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the Force."
facepalm
ESB. First major appearance.
Throws a bunch of shit at Luke.
Directly contradicts Yoda's demand that Luke "never use the Force to attack."

Ring any bells?

The_Tempest
Vader has used the Force against Luke in TESB and against Roan Shryne in LOE. He isn't restricted to a repeat performance of his duel with Maul anymore than Sidious would be in a rematch with Mace.

Pwned
Vader is quite famous for using the Force in combat. It became part of his entire technique.

Galan007

Galan007
Originally posted by Pwned
Vader is quite famous for using the Force in combat. It became part of his entire technique. I'm not saying he hasn't. I'm asking for some of said feats, is all.

Vensai
Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not saying he hasn't. I'm asking for some of said feats, is all.
Well, he did use the force to fire blasters in his duel against Maul, but all it did was amuse him. Maul was clearly winning in the all out till his arrogance cost him.

Galan007
Originally posted by Vensai
Well, he did use the force to fire blasters in his duel against Maul, but all it did was amuse him. Maul was clearly winning in the all out till his arrogance cost him. thumb up

Maul's arrogance+Vader's willingness to skewer himself lol.

Q99
Vader is no slouch in the slightest with sword, having beaten groups of Jedi masters at once.

I'd put him over TCW Maul.


Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not saying he isn't powerful even as of DoE. Being lesser than Dooku doesn't indicate that, but, to be honest, Kas'im is rather featless and Zannah without her Sorcery isn't anything special.


Zannah's not as exceptional but she's no slouch even with blade.

Then there's Raskta Lsu. Raskta Lsu is reported to have killed as many Sith with her blade as the Thought Bomb killed, and Bane was able to stand up to that.


Personally I think it's just rating people from other eras lower because they're from other eras. I can't think of anything Dooku did that'd actually put him above them.

The Merchant
I'm sure that Vader is stronger than his ROTS self, so why would he lose to Dooku again? Only people who I can see lose to are Bane and Plaguies.

Q99
Originally posted by The Merchant
I'm sure that Vader is stronger than his ROTS self, so why would he lose to Dooku again? Only people who I can see lose to are Bane and Plaguies.

I'd put Krayt in there too ^^

Galan007
Originally posted by Q99
I'd put Krayt in there too ^^ This fanboy over here.

Q99
Yea, you can fanboy all you want, I just don't see the point in assuming other eras are weaker 'just because,' without anything indicating that that's the case.

Whichever the era. Bane's, Krayt's, NJO, TOR, etc.. Plenty of feats, plenty of sword duels, I just find the excuses to discount them really weak, y'know?

Vensai
Originally posted by Q99
Yea, you can fanboy all you want, I just don't see the point in assuming other eras are weaker 'just because,' without anything indicating that that's the case.

Whichever the era. Bane's, Krayt's, NJO, TOR, etc.. Plenty of feats, plenty of sword duels, I just find the excuses to discount them really weak, y'know?
The prequel era is supposed to be the jedi's golden age when lightsaber and force disciplines had been developed for generations. Bane's era just had a bunch of featless fodder and rule of Two meant each succeeding generation would be stronger than the next. For a real life comparison, it's like saying mankind was more powerful during the 1600s than today after years of technology development.

Q99
Originally posted by Vensai
The prequel era is supposed to be the jedi's golden age when lightsaber and force disciplines had been developed for generations.


And we're comparing the very best of other eras to people a step or two down in the golden age.

I'm not, in fact, saying that the golden age didn't have the best. I'm just saying that other eras can still compete with the people who aren't the very best.

Bane's era had people honed in combat from centuries of war, though aside from Bane often slacking in non-saber disciplines, but never said to be slacking in that one.

And Krayt's era? Well, he's from the golden age himself, and has it's refined knowledge! As are multiple others, and we know the Jedi of that time were formed by Luke, who's stronger than anyone from the Golden Age.




Except for all the feats.

They might not have as many feats, but we still have some good battle histories on some of them, plus their battles against each other.




Or was supposed to be. There were times of stasis or even backsliding, including the time a Sith turned light and destroyed a lot of the knowledge before being taken down.

Also, one of the big purposes of his project was reclaiming lost knowledge. Even if you count Bane's era for less since it did have that problem, many other eras had that knowledge.



Except training people isn't exactly like technology. The biological bodies are still the exact same, and even the amount of talent with a sword. The force potential of the individuals, also, is completely decided by what you can find, if Bane has more potential than the Sith, say, 6 generations down, then that one'll just have to make due with skills in other areas to make up for less power. Bane appeared to be not all that far from the top of natural force power to begin with, so that specific area isn't one that can really increase through training. Well, at least until you get stuff like the creation of a being with far more force power.

Now, they did improve their knowledge of the dark side and came up with more techniques and such to help your force power, but we're talking improvement by inches as every bit of knowledge must be re-taught each generation before you start adding more, not technology-style leaps.



And, this isn't an entire society 'improving technology' like in real life- it's two researchers at a time. That makes for very slow work, inching along generation by generation.

A lot of the stuff we know they studied and spent a lot of time studying isn't combat-applicable- making a shadow in the force to hide them from Jedi precog was vital, but took a ton of effort and doesn't help in a fight. Essence transfer, manipulating the minds of the populace, manipulating midichlorians.

(in some of these cases, we know people from other areas who're better at them- Krayt and Muur surpass RoT Sith in life manipulation)



We have seen people from past eras show up and still be plenty powerful in other eras. Muur's talisman showing up convincing Vader that, (1), he could beat Palpatine with it, and (2) it may very well take him over in the process.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Q99

Again, killing many Sith isn't really a feat. Grievous did the same.

Dooku has outdueled many foes of whose feats are better than Kas'im and Zannah.

Jedi Mom
5 or 6

Q99
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Again, killing many Sith isn't really a feat. Grievous did the same.

It's totally a feat. Especially if they're done in large quantity.

And Grievous's killing of Jedi is, in fact, a large part of his feats and why he's respected. Without that he'd just be the cyborg that Kenobi owned.





Really? Who?

I mean, let's face it, aside from late-war Obi-wan and Anakin he hasn't faced that many skilled foes.

Unless you're counting the likes of Ventress and Opress, in which case, them, better than Kas'im? Hah.



This is just kinda 'assuming them weak'. There aren't any low feats that indicate they're weaker, and they've been indicated to be walking death against most foes of their era.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Q99
It's totally a feat. Especially if they're done in large quantity.

And Grievous's killing of Jedi is, in fact, a large part of his feats and why he's respected. Without that he'd just be the cyborg that Kenobi owned.
Yet he consitently gets outsparred by Dooku...





Originally posted by Q99
Really? Who?

I mean, let's face it, aside from late-war Obi-wan and Anakin he hasn't faced that many skilled foes.
Mace Windu and Yoda comes to mind. Anakin twice in TCW. Consistenly outdueling Grievous, beating Tholme and Bulq, beating Vos, Ventress and three Nightsister while drugged and blind.


Originally posted by Q99
Unless you're counting the likes of Ventress and Opress, in which case, them, better than Kas'im? Hah.
Nothing suggests otherwise...



Originally posted by Q99
This is just kinda 'assuming them weak'. There aren't any low feats that indicate they're weaker, and they've been indicated to be walking death against most foes of their era.
No it isn't. I'm just not going to rank someone high when they haven't accomplished enough to do it. It'd be silly to.

axel_jovan
Originally posted by The Merchant
I'm sure that Vader is stronger than his ROTS self, so why would he lose to Dooku again? Only people who I can see lose to are Bane and Plaguies.
This is PoD Bane, and PoD Bane gets destroyed by Vader.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Q99
Vader is no slouch in the slightest with sword, having beaten groups of Jedi masters at once.

I'd put him over TCW Maul.



Vader's not going to take TCW Maul in Sabers. I find it very difficult to even believe he would match him.

The guy held his own for a while against Sidious. Completely stomped Opress who has bested the likes of Ventress and Plo Koon.

Not to mention his one one ones with Kenobi showed there's not much disparity between the 2 of them in Sabers. The same Kenobi who is the Master of Soresu and stalemated/bested Sith Anakin.

Intrepid37

Q99
There's Grievous, sure, but Grievous is definitely below Anakin or Kenobi.

When did he outduel Windu or Yoda? He held off Yoda but that's all in TCW, and wasn't the last time he sparred with Mace way pre-PM?




Of which Bulq and especially Tholme and Vos are below Kenobi. Ventress and the two nightsisters was pretty good.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Vader's not going to take TCW Maul in Sabers. I find it very difficult to even believe he would match him.

The guy held his own for a while against Sidious. Completely stomped Opress who has bested the likes of Ventress and Plo Koon.

Vader's a more experienced version of Anakin, who beat Dooku.




But then there was the time Kenobi was doing good against Maul *and* Opress together.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Q99
There's Grievous, sure, but Grievous is definitely below Anakin or Kenobi.
Definitely.

Originally posted by Q99
When did he outduel Windu or Yoda?
I did not mean claim this.

Originally posted by Q99
He held off Yoda but that's all in TCW, and wasn't the last time he sparred with Mace way pre-PM?

Dark Rendezvous suggests that ''Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground.''

Besides, they fought on Boz Pity in Obsession

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/2151174-new_picture__13_.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/square_medium/4/48954/2151175-new_picture__14_.jpg


Originally posted by Q99
Of which Bulq and especially Tholme and Vos are below Kenobi. Ventress and the two nightsisters was pretty good.
Bulq was able to fight evenly with Mace Windu. Not saying he's on their level, far from, but he's an accomplished duelist. It doesn't really matter, this is far from Dooku's best feat.

Another impressive feat from Labyrinth of Evil;

He flicked his blade quickly, ridding two of the guards of their staffs, then placing the glowing tip a millimeter from Grievous's death-helmeted visage.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Q99
But then there was the time Kenobi was doing good against Maul *and* Opress together.

And before that, there was the time Opress alone spanked Obi-Wan and Anakin together twice in the same episode.

There's absolutely zero reason to believe that Obi-Wan could duplicate that performance on neutral terrain against both brothers. He'd be crushed.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by The_Tempest
And before that, there was the time Opress alone spanked Obi-Wan and Anakin together twice in the same episode.

There's absolutely zero reason to believe that Obi-Wan could duplicate that performance on neutral terrain against both brothers. He'd be crushed.
I concur with this. Further more, Asajj Ventress, while a extremely skilled duelist, has been able to fight on par with Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously. It does not indicate that she is on par with both of them.

While Kenobi's win was hard fought and well done, he ''only'' fought evenly with Maul in the Season 4 final, indicating they are on the same level in swordplay.

The_Tempest
Ventress is on par with Obi-Wan and Anakin individually and yes, you're right, while wounded she was able to take them both on in "Nightsisters." Maul curbstomped Savage in "Revival" and Savage, in turn, not only defeated Anakin and Obi-Wan together in "Witches of the Mist" but ragdolled Dooku and Ventress combined in that same episode and drove them both to retreat.

Certain individuals have been deliberately conflating the exception for the rule.

Intrepid37
Agreed with the most of that.

Nephthys
Basically Clone Wars has completely bullshit power-levels.

SIDIOUS 66
Actually it's somewhat realistic.

Though, I do believe they have done certain characters dirty.

Intrepid37
The outcome of fights depend more on the story than on ''power-scaling'' in my opinion.

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
Basically Clone Wars has completely bullshit power-levels.

Pretty much.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Maul curbstomped Savage in "Revival" and Savage, in turn, not only defeated Anakin and Obi-Wan together in "Witches of the Mist" but ragdolled Dooku and Ventress combined in that same episode and drove them both to retreat.


This is one thing that didn't make sense to me. Savage gives all these powerful individuals struggles, but was so easily stomped by Maul.

Intrepid37
In ''Witches of the Mist'' it seems to be he got some kind of rage boost.

As for Maul's literal stompage of him, I can't figure that out, but personally I'd wager it was due to his mechanical legs not being affected by it.

Q99
Opress is a case where a lot of people are taken offguard by his strength, but then once they get his number they start taking him apart.

When Anakin and Obi-Wan faced him together, they were being really cautious.

When Obi-wan fought him again, he was able to use the terrain to his advantage and had a much better sense of Opress's weaknesses.



Originally posted by Intrepid37

Bulq was able to fight evenly with Mace Windu. Not saying he's on their level, far from, but he's an accomplished duelist. It doesn't really matter, this is far from Dooku's best feat.

It strikes me that Dooku does better against weaker foes, but does less-good against stronger ones...



Ok, here's a question for you: If the Clone Wars had at least 5 people of this level (Yoda, Windu, Dooku, Palpatine, Anakin), plus some close to it, why is it so hard to believe that other eras had one or two?

Nephthys
Becose teh golden age off the jedi!

Vensai
Originally posted by The_Tempest
And before that, there was the time Opress alone spanked Obi-Wan and Anakin together twice in the same episode.

There's absolutely zero reason to believe that Obi-Wan could duplicate that performance on neutral terrain against both brothers. He'd be crushed.
You mean when Opress ran with his tail between his legs from the duo? Explain neutral ground when the brothers had Kenobi boxed in and unable to use his signature "giving ground" style and was easy to target with TK.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Vensai
You mean when Opress ran with his tail between his legs from the duo?

Not familiar with that one.

I'm talking about the one where he ragdolled both of them, dropped a hover platform on their heads, destroyed their ship, and made off with a hostage he spent half the duel trying to subdue.

Then their rematch where he ragdolled them again, forced them down a corridor into the main hangar, and then flattened them (and a ring of battle droids) with a Force push after being shot half a dozen times.

You should probably actually watch the episode in question rather than make shit up about it. thumb up

Originally posted by Vensai
Explain neutral ground when the brothers had Kenobi boxed in and unable to use his signature "giving ground" style and was easy to target with TK.

Obi-Wan knew the Sith would expect him to take up a defensive stance in an effort to keep them at bay. But he also knew that tactic would give him no hope to prevail -- he would be worn down until his guard slipped and then he would die, like Adi had.

Surprise was his best bet for survival -- and perhaps his only chance.

The two Sith fell back, startled to find Obi-Wan taking the offensive and surprised by the ferocity of his attack. Sabers hissed, their blades striking sparks from the walls, leaving half-melted scrapes and bubbling burns in their wake.

The two Sith maneuvered to pin Obi-Wan against the wall -- but there was so little room in the corridor that they got in each other's way.

-- Star Wars: The Clone Wars: Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy, pg 38-39

Obi-Wan's aggressive attacks and the confining corridor was to his benefit and their detriment, period.

Trying to distort Obi-Wan's circumstantial "victory" as the general rule has zero basis on-screen, in-text, and from Filoni himself. You lose.

Q99
Originally posted by Nephthys
Becose teh golden age off the jedi!


Yea, exactly smile


Never mind that we have people from all over talk about how great the ancient force users were. Never mind we have people from later on fix the mistakes of the 'golden age' and build a new order to go beyond them.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Q99
Ok, here's a question for you: If the Clone Wars had at least 5 people of this level (Yoda, Windu, Dooku, Palpatine, Anakin), plus some close to it, why is it so hard to believe that other eras had one or two?
Because there is nothing to suggest it...?

Again, I'm open to place Bane on their level when I see him doing something rivaling them.

I'm not going to make random assumptions about his powers in comparison to the ones you listed.

As it stands, DoE Bane certainly hasn't done anything indicating that.

Q99
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Because there is nothing to suggest it...?

Actually, there is. We have incredibly talented people undergo heavy training and fight many powerful foes, including ones with very long kill lists. We have multiple tierings in-era where people stand above already competent force users with their own kill sheets.



What there isn't, is anything to suggest they're significantly weaker.



Clone Wars era demonstrates it's possible to get a good half-a-dozen people of that power level at once, so no wonder that it's considered the golden age, but it also indicates people capable of getting to that level aren't that rare and it makes sense for a few of other eras to get in the same tier.









Oh if only he fought someone listed as having literally hundreds of Sith kills! That sure would be convenient!



I mean, I guess if you want to say it's only Bane when he's still growing that doesn't stand up there, I can accept that, but we've got plenty evidence of high-end blade work.

Intrepid37
Originally posted by Q99
but we've got plenty evidence of high-end blade work.
Such as?

Q99
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Such as?


Raskta Lsu, who killed more Sith Lords than the Thought Bomb.



There's not an insignificant number of fights and mentions of fights in the Bane novels, all in all. The people Bane fights and encounters in the Sith academy, all the Jedi he bumps into, yadda yadda, and a lot of them involve backstories with mentioned feats too.

Nephthys
Yeah, considering when they weren't boosted by Battle Meditation he was pushing back Raskta Lsu, said to have killed more Sith Lords than the Thought Bomb, Valenthyne Farfalla, who defeated Lord Kopecz in a duel (who himself was able to slay an entire squad of the Republics best soldiers before they could fire more than once) and Johun Othone, who has an unfair reputation for shittiness given that he was the padawan of the Orders Battlemaster, all at the same time, I'd say Bane has more than enough chops to stand with the best of the best.

axel_jovan
Originally posted by Nephthys ]Yeah, considering when they weren't boosted by Battle Meditation he was pushing back Raskta Lsu, said to have killed more Sith Lords than the Thought Bomb, Valenthyne Farfalla, who defeated Lord Kopecz in a duel (who himself was able to slay an entire squad of the Republics best soldiers before they could fire more than once) and Johun Othone, who has an unfair reputation for shittiness given that he was the padawan of the Orders Battlemaster, all at the same time, I'd say Bane has more than enough chops to stand with the best of the best.
How is THAT a combat feat? erm

Nephthys
Did I say it was? All I said was that he's unfairly dismissed given that he was being trained by the best.

But if you insist.... its ****ing retarded to believe that the apprentice to the best duelist of the Jedi would be shit at dueling. You'd think that would probably have been something Lord Hoth would train him in. And he was able to hit Bane afterall.

axel_jovan
Originally posted by Nephthys
Did I say it was? All I said was that he's unfairly dismissed given that he was being trained by the best.

But if you insist.... its ****ing retarded to believe that the apprentice to the best duelist of the Jedi would be shit at dueling. You'd think that would probably have been something Lord Hoth would train him in. And he was able to hit Bane afterall.
Correction. Unless Johun does something of note combat-wise, the level of his mastery, or lack of thereof, remains shrouded in a mystery and cannot be solely based on a fact that his master was good. erm

EDIT: But whatever.

However, this gives me an idea for a thread. Hold on.

Nephthys
You didn't correct anything. :I

Raptor22
Originally posted by Q99
Yea, you can fanboy all you want, I just don't see the point in assuming other eras are weaker 'just because,' without anything indicating that that's the case.

Whichever the era. Bane's, Krayt's, NJO, TOR, etc.. Plenty of feats, plenty of sword duels, I just find the excuses to discount them really weak, y'know? I agree with everything except banes era. I like bane a lot but a major theme throughout the story was that the sith were weak due to their power being spread too so many. While that might not be the case in other eras such as vitates and krayts empires not being weakened by the watering down effect i think it was clearly the writers intent of the bane books that the sith of that time were weaker. The way i see it is Bane by the end of book 1 was badass but not nearly as powerful/skilled as later versions and already he was above every other sith alive by a good amount. Just think of everyone from tcw era that would be above bane at the end of book 1 and they would be above basically everyone from banes era.

ares834
Originally posted by Nephthys
But if you insist.... its ****ing retarded to believe that the apprentice to the best duelist of the Jedi would be shit at dueling. You'd think that would probably have been something Lord Hoth would train him in. And he was able to hit Bane afterall.

But he was shitty... In fact, he was so shitty that, while boosted by battle-meditation, he was actually detrimental to his team while battling Zannah. Hell, in that passage he is even called mediocre.

Q99
Originally posted by Raptor22
I agree with everything except banes era. I like bane a lot but a major theme throughout the story was that the sith were weak due to their power being spread too so many. While that might not be the case in other eras such as vitates and krayts empires not being weakened by the watering down effect i think it was clearly the writers intent of the bane books that the sith of that time were weaker. The way i see it is Bane by the end of book 1 was badass but not nearly as powerful/skilled as later versions and already he was above every other sith alive by a good amount. Just think of everyone from tcw era that would be above bane at the end of book 1 and they would be above basically everyone from banes era.

Mm, fair enough, though Bane at least had Revan's holocron, and you can still get good saber skill- though not force skill- via raw experience.

NewGuy01
3.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Intrepid37


As for Maul's literal stompage of him, I can't figure that out, but personally I'd wager it was due to his mechanical legs not being affected by it.

I personally just give Maul that one without question as it was his only Saber feat which really stood out since his return.

Intrepid37
I'd like to think there's not the biggest difference between them.

DARTH POWER
I personally think it's a significant difference. Looking at their joint performance against Kenobi and later Sidious, Maul clearly did fair better than Opress in both fights.

Intrepid37
I don't remember Savage fighting Kenobi alone, though it's possible I have missed an episode.

Look at Kenobi's fight against Ventress though, she disarmed him rather easily and then fought even with him throughout the fight.

I don't think there's a big difference at all between Ventress, Kenobi, Savage and Maul in swordfighting.

DARTH POWER
Have to put Maul and Kenobi a notch above Opress and Ventress though. In Sabers that is.

In the Force I'd put Maul and Savage a notch above Kenobi and Ventress.

Intrepid37
There is some kind of pararity though. Ventress has shown that against Kenobi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e14jJ1KxiDQ

DARTH POWER
Yeah tbh I don't remember Kenobi ever soundly defeating Ventress. Although most agree he did win that fight you've posted.

I guess the fact that he's consistently shown he's "at least" on par with Maul in Sabers, and his stompage of Opress is what makes me put Kenobi above Ventress.

Intrepid37
I'm not claiming she's above him. But I just don't think there is a significant difference between them and between Maul and Savage. They can all fight on par with each other and give good fights.

Arhael
Indeed, there isn't. It's a matter of versatility.
Opress even before Dooku's training was fast enough to kill a master and padawan without lightsaber. His unnatural strength was a surprice element against his opponents.
Strictly saber skill was, also, alright, he was able to block all saber attacks even from Jarkai Kenobi and Sidious.
But he lacked maneuverability and was particularly vulnerable to unarmed combat techniques.
He disarmes Ventress, yet, she landed several kicks and punches after.
He forced Adi Galia onto defensive, yet, she managed to kick him in the knee.
When Kenobi was attacking him, he had no problem countering saber attacks, yet, was helpless against kicks.
Maul used Makashi style to counter Opress' strength and applied a joint lock technique - a move Opress simply did not expect.
Sidious kept landing kicks past his defence. When left alone, wise choice would be to fight defensively and try to survive until Maul rejoins but Opress on opposite kept attacking Sidious. When oponent fights offensively, it is much easier to expose weaknesses in his defence.

Intrepid37
That seems fair to me. thumb up

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