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No BFR.

Who wins?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/80111/2507285-juggernaut_2.jpg vs http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/8/83882/1990242-thor_destroyer_armour_art.jpg

Unless he has his force field, Juggernaut gets beat the f*ck up.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Unless he has his force field, Juggernaut gets beat the f*ck up. Lol I don't see how this would end. Would be a stalemate with them smacking each other around.

Destroyer knocks Juggernaut's face off with the eye beams

Stalemate or Destroyer.

Classic Juggernaut was unharmed even by Thor's Godblast.

Destroyer's not likely to do any better.


On the other hand, only Celestial power has brought down Destroyer from what I understand, and even that was temporary.

Strange that I've not seen this topic appear before now.

The most dynamic stalemate in comicbook history, on the face of it ...

Juggernaut had his force field there. Like I said, without his force field it will be like the beating he sustained against Thor or War Hulk except much more severe.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Juggernaut had his force field there. Like I said, without his force field it will be like the beating he sustained against Thor or War Hulk except much more severe.


I'm not sure I've ever known a case where Classic Juggernaut, lacked a force field.

The terms are synonymous for me. Perhaps I'm mistaken and there were some instances where he did not have one?

The only significant and explained exception that comes to mind, however, was where Jug fought Thor on some other planet and Thor found a way to BLOCK part of the Cyttorak magic.

He had to use one of Mjolnir's godly exotic powers to do that, however.
I don't think Destroyer has the same ability. If he did, I would agree with you.

This would be a total wash. Cain would be bounced around like a ball, but would never be put down. Stalemate.

Destroyer ultimately has higher echelons of power it can reach as evidenced by forcibly tapping into the power of Pantheons. Abilities such as those are dependent on the host, though.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Juggernaut had his force field there. Like I said, without his force field it will be like the beating he sustained against Thor or War Hulk except much more severe. he was never really Hurt against any of them, War Hulk never hurted him, he is as durable with his force field up or down.

Stalemate or Destroyer.

Juggs may win this (minus bfr of course). But most likely it's a stalemate.

Destroyer knocks juggs d*ick in the dirt

http://i40.tinypic.com/20fxobk.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/33mskly.jpg

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
http://i40.tinypic.com/20fxobk.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/33mskly.jpg

Just wanted to point out that that is an alternate reality and he is also a mutant in that reality.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
http://i40.tinypic.com/20fxobk.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/33mskly.jpg

Never saw that, where is that from? Add that scene to another long list of Juggernaut being very much vulnerable without his force field.

Originally posted by googol
he was never really Hurt against any of them, War Hulk never hurted him, he is as durable with his force field up or down.

What are you talking about? Both Hulk and Thor were beating the absolute crap out of him. IIRC War Hulk was about to straight up decapitate him (Been a while since I've read that fight) and Thor was like one punch away from laying him out.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I'm not sure I've ever known a case where Classic Juggernaut, lacked a force field.

The terms are synonymous for me. Perhaps I'm mistaken and there were some instances where he did not have one?

The only significant and explained exception that comes to mind, however, was where Jug fought Thor on some other planet and Thor found a way to BLOCK part of the Cyttorak magic.

He had to use one of Mjolnir's godly exotic powers to do that, however.
I don't think Destroyer has the same ability. If he did, I would agree with you.

It's happened. Many times. I think it this point he's appeared without his force field more often than he has.

Pretty much every time he's been hurt it's because he lacked his force field. With it he's almost invulnerable to anything.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Just wanted to point out that that is an alternate reality and he is also a mutant in that reality. Lady Sphinx warped 616 Earth into her own Earth. The characters there were 616, but had their origins changed.

If it was actually an alternate reality, then that means Lady Sphinx created an entire universe...

New Warriors 12, as well Rage.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Lady Sphinx warped 616 Earth into her own Earth. The characters there were 616, but had their origins changed.

If it was actually an alternate reality, then that means Lady Sphinx created an entire universe...

New Warriors 12, as well Rage.

Juggernaut was definitely a mutant in that comic. That shield is stated to affect mutants only. Plus Thor had no ties to Mjolnir or Norse Mythology. So Thor having such a radically different background/origin can mean the same for any and all the characters.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Juggernaut was definitely a mutant in that comic. That shield is stated to affect mutants only. Plus Thor had no ties to Mjolnir or Norse Mythology. So Thor having such a radically different background/origin can mean the same for any and all the characters. A different origin doesn't make for different powers, and no one's power worked differently there.
And if the shield was changed to work for just normal cellular disruption, it would have accomplished the same thing.

Thor still had a hammer, he still shot lightning. And his ties were to Egyptian Gods since his name was Horus.

Most of them had different origins, they were still 616 characters that were being reality manipulated.

It's the equivalent of say Tiamut making Thor a Mexican God who uses a wrench.
It's still Thor, he just looks a lot different.

Now imagine that on a planetary scale.

Like jake said depending on who is controlling destroyer, someone like Odin, Thor and Loki know how to use the armor, and the armor can summon more power from earth pantheons sky fathers , well juggernaut is in some major trouble!

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
A different origin doesn't make for different powers, and no one's power worked differently there.
And if the shield was changed to work for just normal cellular disruption, it would have accomplished the same thing.

Thor still had a hammer, he still shot lightning. And his ties were to Egyptian Gods since his name was Horus.

Most of them had different origins, they were still 616 characters that were being reality manipulated. It's the equivalent of say Tiamut making Thor a Mexican God who uses a wrench.

So that fact that he was part of the Mutant Liberation Front, and on the cover of the comic he is in the middle on says, "Mutant Rebellion", and that the force field is called, "Mutant Detection Field", doesn't say he was a mutant to you? You're grasping at straws. Juggernaut has been confused for a mutant in comics plenty of times. Even in a 616 Thor comic he was labeled by the narrator as a mutant and a character within the story as one.

Thor didn't have a hammer either. I don't know what to call it, it was more of a Ankh piece.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
So that fact that he was part of the Mutant Liberation Front, and on the cover of the comic he is in the middle on says, "Mutant Rebellion", and that the force field is called, "Mutant Detection Field", doesn't say he was a mutant to you? You're grasping at straws. Juggernaut has been confused for a mutant in comics plenty of times. Even in a 616 Thor comic he was labeled by the narrator as a mutant and a character within the story as one.

Thor didn't have a hammer either. I don't know what to call it, it was more of a Ankh piece. I never once said he wasn't a mutant, so there's that.
I said he had a different origin. But his powers worked the same (super strong, invulnerable, red), so that really makes no difference. He could have been one of those hairy mutant like humans for all the difference it made.

Same principle. He hit things with it, he shot lightning, he killed Wolverine with a blast, etc.

As soon as she reversed it, it was the same New Warriors reversing back to the way they were. As well as it was the same planet. Just altered reality.

And a mutant Juggernaut does not draw on the power from the Crimson Cosmos. People were different, Nova owned Thors character (I think his name was Horus in the comic) and Thor failed to put that version of Juggernaut down when that shield did better. And I don't see Thor being put down by Nova, especially at that age.

Just to throw this out there, Thor directly calls Juggs a mutant.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
And a mutant Juggernaut does not draw on the power from the Crimson Cosmos. People were different, Nova owned Thors character (I think his name was Horus in the comic) and Thor failed to put that version of Juggernaut down when that shield did better. And I don't see Thor being put down by Nova, especially at that age.

Just to throw this out there, Thor directly calls Juggs a mutant. Or he's a mutant who draws from the crimson cosmos.
Sphinx didn't change the way people's powers worked, she just changed their origins.

Nova stunned Thor and Iron Man with a sudden surge of power that he right on panel states that he's never done anything like that before. Thor was on his knees, and Iron Man was holding his head upright. They were up right away.

Thor stood right in front of Juggernaut and they took turns hitting each other. The shield disrupted his cells. Thor hit him with basic attacks. And the Destroyer should be able to really disrupt his cells with beams that have cut Mjolnir in half.

Anyway, let's get onto the scans.
Retroactively changed reality:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/NewWar-012-12.jpg

Remade the world:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/NewWar-012-13.jpg

Reverts it back, and surprise, it's the same characters (although they have different costumes, so clearly they were different characters...):
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/NewWar-013-22.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/NewWar-013-23.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/NewWar-013-24.jpg

She used 616 characters and switched them up via reality manip. They had the same powers, they were the same characters, they just had different origins.

Sphinx later said she recreated all reality. You don't think a character can change reality for every single character on the planet (or universe), but she can't change Juggernaut into a mutant (especially when writers at the time had no idea what Juggernaut actually was)?

Morgan Le Fay did the same thing and the Avengers all had their same powers and ablities, albeit with different origins/identities to mesh with Morgan's altered Camelot-esque reality.

I'm on the fence, I'd have to read the story myself to decide. On one hand I see Bran's point on the other, reality warping is still reality warping and can drastically change history and origins making characters effectively completely different.

Morgan Le Fay for example altered reality but pretty much just lobotomized the Avengers and changed shit to Medieval times. The world was different but the changes to heroes themselves were very superficial (Might as well have transported them in time). But we also have shit like House of M when characters were completely different animals. It's almost a case by case basis imho.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I'm on the fence, I'd have to read the story myself to decide. On one hand I see Bran's point on the other, reality warping is still reality warping and can drastically change history and origins making characters effectively completely different.

Morgan Le Fay for example altered reality but pretty much just lobotomized the Avengers and changed shit to Medieval times. The world was different but the changes to heroes themselves were very superficial (Might as well have transported them in time). But we also have shit like House of M when characters were completely different animals. It's almost a case by case basis imho.

Deciding argument. Thor hits Wolverine:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/NewWar-011-05.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/NewWar-011-06.jpg

Really though, no powers were changed, just origins. And she remade the world, and then remade it back. It was still the 616 verse (unlike HoM).

Altered Reality, the 616 reality has been altered. You know a another way you can reword that, Alternate Reality.

I never assume that when a character is altered or from an altered reality, that they are the same, power wise or character traits. Especially when they have their core powers changed from what they were to mutant or from mutant to another power origin. Time and again, a mutant Juggernaut has never been more powerful than one with Mystical origin.

A shield specifically designed to affect mutants actually affected a Mutant Juggernaut is not really a surprise and shouldn't be able to do the same to one who was transformed by the Gem of Cyttorak.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Deciding argument. Thor hits Wolverine:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/NewWar-011-05.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/NewWar-011-06.jpg

Really though, no powers were changed, just origins.

Yet in 616, Wolverine has regenerated from a Skeleton. There is even still some meat on his bones in that second pic.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Deciding argument. Thor hits Wolverine:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/NewWar-011-05.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/NewWar-011-06.jpg

Really though, no powers were changed, just origins. And she remade the world, and then remade it back. It was still the 616 verse (unlike HoM).

But changing origins can drastically change powers. While that's an awesome scene to tease Skrank with, from a glance, that seems to be nothing like Thor. He's not even called Thor, and apparently he get's empowered by the Egyptian Gods? Might as well be a different person in my book tbh. No Mjolnir, not Asgardian? Meh.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Altered Reality, the 616 reality has been altered. You know a another way you can reword that, Alternate Reality.

I never assume that when a character is altered or from an altered reality, that they are the same, power wise or character traits. Especially when they have their core powers changed from what they were to mutant or from mutant to another power origin. Time and again, a mutant Juggernaut has never been more powerful than one with Mystical origin.

A shield specifically designed to affect mutants actually affected a Mutant Juggernaut is not really a surprise and shouldn't be able to do the same to one who was transformed by the Gem of Cyttorak.



Yet in 616, Wolverine has regenerated from a Skeleton. There is even still some meat on his bones in that second pic. And it's all 616 characters, as evidenced by the New Warriors being... the same characters. As evidenced by her remaking the world, as opposed to creating a new one. As evidenced by it not taking place in an alternate reality.

Yes, and it would have done the same thing had it been a cellular attack to a normal Juggernaut. Although it's funny you previously brought up how confused writers were about whether Juggernaut was a mutant or not... in the unquestionably 616 verse. Clearly those were alternate realities too.


And I bet people thought he was dead then too. It's taken him what, weeks before to regen from a skeleton. He didn't have time to show he was still alive there.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Yes, and it would have done the same thing had it been a cellular attack to a normal Juggernaut. Although it's funny you previously brought up how confused writers were about whether Juggernaut was a mutant or not... in the unquestionably 616 verse. Clearly those were alternate realities too.


And I bet people thought he was dead then too. It's taken him what, weeks before to regen from a skeleton. He didn't have time to show he was still alive there.

Again, you don't know if the shield would do the same to 616 if it had been a cellular attack.

You're grasping at straws again. So now that version of Wolverine is not dead?

Me bringing up that Juggs has been called a mutant in 616, is to show some writers don't know much about him before they write him.

But in this comic, Juggernaut is a mutant, and a shield specifically designed to affect mutants affects him.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
But changing origins can drastically change powers. While that's an awesome scene to tease Skrank with, from a glance, that seems to be nothing like Thor. He's not even called Thor, and apparently he get's empowered by the Egyptian Gods? Might as well be a different person in my book tbh. No Mjolnir, not Asgardian? Meh. He's called Horus, which following it as the absolute truth and not a "false world" (As Sayge repeatedly called it) would have meant he was the head of the Egyptian Gods.

All she did was change his appearance, and create a false mythos for him.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Again, you don't know if the shield would do the same to 616 if it had been a cellular attack.

You're grasping at straws again. So now that version of Wolverine is not dead?

Me bringing up that Juggs has been called a mutant in 616, is to show some writers don't know much about him before they write him.

But in this comic, Juggernaut is a mutant, and a shield specifically designed to affect mutants affects him. Sure I do. It affected his cells. He fell.

Why would he be? Wolverine's healed from the same thing before.

And that would be much different than writers in 616 calling him a mutant. Actually, wasn't Juggs' best durability feat (taking the God Blast) from a writer who thought he was a mutant?

Either way, you can cover your ears all you like, but at the end of the day, it was just a false world, in the same universe, with the same characters, from a character with enough power to alter every Earth character. And if she wants to make Juggernaut a mutant, or the writer (which would make it so unlike 616 at the time), then they have the power to.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
He's called Horus, which following it as the absolute truth and not a "false world" (As Sayge repeatedly called it) would have meant he was the head of the Egyptian Gods.

All she did was change his appearance, and create a false mythos for him.

Horus isn't the head of the Egyptian Gods, IIRC his the son of the brother of Seth. I forgot his name but he was the ruler until Seth took over and consumed the Egyptians to face Odin.

Meh, I don't know. I'd have to read it, seems pretty different to me imho.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Either way, you can cover your ears all you like, but at the end of the day, it was just a false world, in the same universe, with the same characters, from a character with enough power to alter every Earth character. And if she wants to make Juggernaut a mutant, or the writer (which would make it so unlike 616 at the time), then they have the power to.

Either way you can be ignorant all you like and make all the assumption you want. Because that is all you can do, is make assumptions, none of which are proven.

If the a character can alter reality and change the origin of power, the characters level of power can, and most likely, is also changed. That version of Thor couldn't put down a mutant Juggernaut and even resorted to a cheap shot in the back that couldn't put him down. He failed where a simple Mutant shield did not.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Horus isn't the head of the Egyptian Gods, IIRC his the son of the brother of Seth. I forgot his name but he was the ruler until Seth took over and consumed the Egyptians to face Odin.

Meh, I don't know. I'd have to read it, seems pretty different to me imho. Right, it was Osiris.
IIRC Horus was the only "Skyfather" during The End, which would have made him lead, since it was the head of the pantheon at the time.
I may have made all that up.

On a basic level, her world was basically "filthy muties". All the good people were black, except Nova, and then he became a filthy mutie supporter. She took existing templates, and warped their looks.

Juggernaut was like the co-main character. Thor wasn't fleshed out besides basic wacking, so you won't find anything there.

New Warriors 11-13. Interesting read.

Some more scans talking about the lies, and how the world is wrong, and they want to make it right again:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/NewWar-012-08.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/NewWar-013-07.jpg

Turn the world back:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/NewWar-013-21.jpg

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Either way you can be ignorant all you like and make all the assumption you want. Because that is all you can do, is make assumptions, none of which are proven.

If the a character can alter reality and change the origin of power, the characters level of power can, and most likely, is also changed. That version of Thor couldn't put down a mutant Juggernaut and even resorted to a cheap shot in the back that couldn't put him down. He failed where a simple Mutant shield did not. K cool. Let me know when you show scans proving it's an alternate reality.

No character's power was even shown to vary slightly.

I wouldn't expect Thor to knock Juggernaut out with basic hammer, or ankh hits. Even pussy Juggernaut was taking his attacks without getting KO'ed.

The simple mutant shield was stated to have killed many mutants. Because it disrupts them on a cellular level. Thor hit Juggernaut with basic attacks. Difference.

The shield wasn't to show Thor could take down Juggernaut (although it opens the door considering Thor's exotic powers), it was to show Destroyer would blast a mudhole in Juggernaut.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
K cool. Let me know when you show scans proving it's an alternate reality.

No character's power was even shown to vary slightly.

I wouldn't expect Thor to knock Juggernaut out with basic hammer, or ankh hits. Even pussy Juggernaut was taking his attacks without getting KO'ed.

The simple mutant shield was stated to have killed many mutants. Because it disrupts them on a cellular level. Thor hit Juggernaut with basic attacks. Difference.

The shield wasn't to show Thor could take down Juggernaut (although it opens the door considering Thor's exotic powers), it was to show Destroyer would blast a mudhole in Juggernaut.

Reality is altered, there for it is an alternate reality.

House of M, Wanda had a break down and altered reality to recreate her lost children. The universe where House of M takes place is designated as Earth-58163, not Earth 616.

The story in New Warriors #11 - 13, "Forever Yesterday" has it's own universe #: Earth 9105

Edit: Also, this realities Avengers, appear in Avengers forever #11 & #12.

Edit #2: Horus uses a large ankh as the focus for his solar energy.

616 Juggernaut has had his flesh magically stripped from his bones. Guess what skin and muscle tissue are made of? And yet he still stood.

Back to Wolverine, you claim is still alive despite several characters mention his sacrifice (death) several times. In 616, he healed from bones in hours I do believe. So until they explore the reality further and Wolverine is shown/said to still be alive, he is dead.

Who's that Thor looking guy?

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080203035244/marveldatabase/images/7/73/Avengers_%28Earth-9105%29.jpg

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Right, it was Osiris.
IIRC Horus was the only "Skyfather" during The End, which would have made him lead, since it was the head of the pantheon at the time.
I may have made all that up.

On a basic level, her world was basically "filthy muties". All the good people were black, except Nova, and then he became a filthy mutie supporter. She took existing templates, and warped their looks.

Juggernaut was like the co-main character. Thor wasn't fleshed out besides basic wacking, so you won't find anything there.

New Warriors 11-13. Interesting read.

Some more scans talking about the lies, and how the world is wrong, and they want to make it right again:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/NewWar-012-08.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/NewWar-013-07.jpg

Turn the world back:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/NewWar-013-21.jpg

Not sure what you mean by that. The eagle headed guy is Horus in the End mini?

I'm not debating whether it was an alternate reality or not, but I really don't think you can use any feats seen in this Universe for the 616. Origins being changed, it being only temporary etc. is a lot liberty to do whatever with characters even if power levels are relatively the same (Streets are streets, heralds are heralds etc.)

Simple things like Cain gaining his powers from mutations instead of Cytorrak may seem trivial but is in fact a huge change and deviation from the character. Thor not having Mjolnir and channeling Solar Egyptian power is another example. Not to mention he's beat up Horus.

This is just my opinion anyways.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Reality is altered, there for it is an alternate reality.

House of M, Wanda had a break down and altered reality to recreate her lost children. The universe where House of M takes place is designated as Earth-58163, not Earth 616.

The story in New Warriors #11 - 13, "Forever Yesterday" has it's own universe #: Earth 9105

Edit: Also, this realities Avengers, appear in Avengers forever #11 & #12.

616 Juggernaut has had his flesh magically stripped from his bones. Guess what skin and muscle tissue are made of? And yet he still stood.

Back to Wolverine, you claim is still alive despite several characters mention his sacrifice (death) several times. In 616, he healed from bones in hours I do believe. So until they explore the reality further and Wolverine is shown/said to still be alive, he is dead. That's not how that works. That's like saying anytime reality is altered in any way, it's an alternate reality.
They never exited 616 though, so there's that. Not to mention all the numerous statements, and even the same damned characters being used. You know, using the same characters makes it the same characters...

And HOM was a specific new reality that carried on after its conclusion.

Haha, online bios. At least grab an official bio if you're going to combat numerous scans that go against that.

Although I fail to see how their appearance in Avengers Forever proves this, seeing as they could have grabbed Avengers from the past, and it would have been alternate versions. He could have literally grabbed Pym from a minute before he was sent through time, and it would have been an alternate version. But that's time travel for you. Hell, the mere fact that he grabbed them from a time that we saw start and end proves that he grabbed alternate versions of them. Which means there's possibly more.
Also, the Avengers Forever versions seem awfully white, but I digress.

And the magical flesh rip would imply Juggernaut can pretty much not be put down at all. How did rapid aging, sonics, (assuming he had no brain there) numerous occasions of psychic attacks, etc, stop him? Yes, it's a cool feat, but it's also retarded and goes against a large amount of his history.

I believe the first time Wolverine healed from a skeleton it took weeks. Wolverine's healing factor was at its worst there. IE, there's room for him to have live through that.
Unless Thor's godly power just shut him down.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Who's that Thor looking guy?

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080203035244/marveldatabase/images/7/73/Avengers_%28Earth-9105%29.jpg

Basically that picture is of two (or more) Avenger teams from different realities. The Egyptian ones (with Horus) are from the reality in the New Warriors story. Basically in that story, Time-Keepers used the Forever Crystal to summon Avengers from divergent realities that had turned dark and destructive. That Thor looking guy is a bad version of Thor. I kind of like the idea of Thor having a horned helmet.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Who's that Thor looking guy?

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080203035244/marveldatabase/images/7/73/Avengers_%28Earth-9105%29.jpg



Not sure what you mean by that. The eagle headed guy is Horus in the End mini?

I'm not debating whether it was an alternate reality or not, but I really don't think you can use any feats seen in this Universe for the 616. Origins being changed, it being only temporary etc. is a lot liberty to do whatever with characters even if power levels are relatively the same (Streets are streets, heralds are heralds etc.)

Simple things like Cain gaining his powers from mutations instead of Cytorrak may seem trivial but is in fact a huge change and deviation from the character. Thor not having Mjolnir and channeling Solar Egyptian power is another example. Not to mention he's beat up Horus.

This is just my opinion anyways. Different reality.

That I recall, yes.

But it's the same characters. She only created a false mythos for everyone, including herself. The only power differential in the entire arc was a sudden powerful burst from Nova which he said he's never done before.

And that assumes Juggernaut's mutant powers don't give him a connection with Cy. Or that the writers cared enough to research it considering that was a time when writers weren't sure of what the hell he was, including his Thor issues.

It was never explained what Thor channeled.

Exactly, and Horus doesn't carry an Ankh, or a weapon anything like Mjolnir. He was Horus in name. That's where the similarities end. It was basically a superficial change.

You really are dense. All the proof is right there in front of you that it is an alternate reality. Every site that has detailed info on the Forever Yesterday story line list that reality as 9105.

A big thing in comics and other mediums, is if you tamper with a timeline, it will become a divergent reality. That is indeed an alternate reality.

I notice you took out the part on Horus utilizing solar energy. I don't think Thor has Superman powers, if he does, they are not part of his main power source.

You are practically on your own here. Every bio online has the same info. And I am sure even if I had a Marvel Appendix with this info, you'd dismiss that too like everyone else does here.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
You really are dense. All the proof is right there in front of you that it is an alternate reality. Every site that has detailed info on the Forever Yesterday story line list that reality as 9105.

A big thing in comics and other mediums, is if you tamper with a timeline, it will become a divergent reality. That is indeed an alternate reality.

I notice you took out the part on Horus utilizing solar energy. I don't think Thor has Superman powers, if he does, they are not part of his main power source.

You are practically on your own here. Every bio online has the same info. And I am sure even if I had a Marvel Appendix with this info, you'd dismiss that too like everyone else does here. So, we should just cling to bios then?
Of course every site is going to have it listed as that. Every site just copied the first site that listed that.
If there was an actual official source that listed it as that reality, you would have posted that instead.

And when it uses all 616 characters and occurs on the Earth of the 616 universe? A big thing in comics is acknowledging the actual comics themselves too, and the scans that come from it. Which you failed to accomplish.
The funny thing is, even if it were an alternate reality, it's still using the same characters from 616, so it fails to create a difference.

Then post the actual entry from the Marvel handbooks and see what I think about it. Don't threaten me with it.
"If I would have posted the scans from the actual comic that show the world was just remade and then remade back, that it was lies, that it occurred in the same universe, and that the same characters were being used, you would ignore that too."

As it stands, I'm ignoring fan made bios that arbitrarily assigned a number to the feat, and you're ignoring the comics themselves.

Though the Galactus fan in me wants to believe she created an entire universe. I wonder what the Juggernaut fan in you says...

The reality number is not fan made and the story did not take place on 616 earth.

Official Handbook of The Marvel Universe - Alternate Universes 2005

Earth-9105 Forever Yesterday. New Warriors #11 (1991)

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15783635_Alternate_Universes_2005.PNG

There, out of an official Marvel Handbook listing it as an Alternate Universe. Not 616 but 9105.

There we go, was that so hard?

Although that makes the feat possibly universal, it doesn't change much since it's still the same characters being used from 616.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

What are you talking about? Both Hulk and Thor were beating the absolute crap out of him. IIRC War Hulk was about to straight up decapitate him (Been a while since I've read that fight) and Thor was like one punch away from laying him out.
Never happened, now if you have scans showing Thor or Hulk drawing any type of fluids out of him(Crap, blood, tears) I welcome you to do it, otherwise all they(hulk and thor) were doing is knocking him down, which never even draw blood from him,not once

Originally posted by the Darkone
Like jake said depending on who is controlling destroyer, someone like Odin, Thor and Loki know how to use the armor, and the armor can summon more power from earth pantheons sky fathers , well juggernaut is in some major trouble! standard destroyer or Juggy can summon Cyttorak and Trion.

Originally posted by googol
Never happened, now if you have scans showing Thor or Hulk drawing any type of fluids out of him(Crap, blood, tears) I welcome you to do it, otherwise all they(hulk and thor) were doing is knocking him down, which never even draw blood from him,not once What's the stance on how much power Collusos had?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
What's the stance on how much power Collusos had? Cyttorak said Colossus was drawing more power from the gem than Cain ever did(not counting the Trion juggernaut) but I just dont know, Demon colossus was wreking but Trion Juggernaut is another beast

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Different reality.

That I recall, yes.

But it's the same characters. She only created a false mythos for everyone, including herself. The only power differential in the entire arc was a sudden powerful burst from Nova which he said he's never done before.

And that assumes Juggernaut's mutant powers don't give him a connection with Cy. Or that the writers cared enough to research it considering that was a time when writers weren't sure of what the hell he was, including his Thor issues.

It was never explained what Thor channeled.

Exactly, and Horus doesn't carry an Ankh, or a weapon anything like Mjolnir. He was Horus in name. That's where the similarities end. It was basically a superficial change.

Hmm, okay.

At best, we'd have to go by a case by case basis. The changes could be superficial or monumental depending on what part of their origin was changed. It's not like she just implanted false memories, history was literally changed, no?

At the end of the day, there's just too much shit going on for you to think anyone would just broadly accept this as relevant to the 616.

Didn't one of you mention Egyptian solar power or whatever? Also 616 Horus does have a staff like weapon that he uses or that Ankh thing was also seen:
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/DefeatsHorusEgyGod3.jpg
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/DefeatsHorusEgyGod4.jpg
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/DefeatsHorusEgyGod5.jpg

I know it's ultimately irrelevant but I wanted to post some cool Thor scans.

Originally posted by googol
Never happened, now if you have scans showing Thor or Hulk drawing any type of fluids out of him(Crap, blood, tears) I welcome you to do it, otherwise all they(hulk and thor) were doing is knocking him down, which never even draw blood from him,not once

What? A character has to bleeding to be hurt? Both instances had Juggernaut on his last legs, he was getting annihilated. I can think of only 3 other instances when he has sustained a worse beating (Captain Universe, Onslaught and the Exemplars).

This is some dumb shit even by today standards, never mind back when comics were a lot less bloody.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Hmm, okay.

At best, we'd have to go by a case by case basis. The changes could be superficial or monumental depending on what part of their origin was changed. It's not like she just implanted false memories, history was literally changed, no?

At the end of the day, there's just too much shit going on for you to think anyone would just broadly accept this as relevant to the 616.

Didn't one of you mention Egyptian solar power or whatever? Also 616 Horus does have a staff like weapon that he uses or that Ankh thing was also seen:
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/DefeatsHorusEgyGod3.jpg
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/DefeatsHorusEgyGod4.jpg
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/DefeatsHorusEgyGod5.jpg

I know it's ultimately irrelevant but I wanted to post some cool Thor scans. thor never "Beat the Crap" out classic Juggernaut, he has never draw blood or any type of fluids(Crap, piss) out of juggernaut, thor is incapable of doing any damage to juggernaut, with or without forcefield

Originally posted by googol
Cyttorak said Colossus was drawing more power from the gem than Cain ever did(not counting the Trion juggernaut) but I just dont know, Demon colossus was wreking but Trion Juggernaut is another beast And Collusos was getting damaged by Kuurth. So...

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Hmm, okay.

At best, we'd have to go by a case by case basis. The changes could be superficial or monumental depending on what part of their origin was changed. It's not like she just implanted false memories, history was literally changed, no?

At the end of the day, there's just too much shit going on for you to think anyone would just broadly accept this as relevant to the 616.

Didn't one of you mention Egyptian solar power or whatever? Also 616 Horus does have a staff like weapon that he uses or that Ankh thing was also seen:
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/DefeatsHorusEgyGod3.jpg
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/DefeatsHorusEgyGod4.jpg
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/DefeatsHorusEgyGod5.jpg

I know it's ultimately irrelevant but I wanted to post some cool Thor scans. Sayge said it was all false lies that Sphinx was foolish for believing. But yes, she tried creating an Earth so she could have sex with Sphinx, and she failed at that.

Mayhaps. But it was 616 characters just reality manipped, so I personally don't see any distinction. I realize it's not canon to their history, but for all intents and purposes, they were the same character. Plus they'll have questionable dreams about it for all time.

I don't know. I just don't recall them saying he had solar powers. In fact, he was shooting lightning in that arc.
That's not really the same as a Mjolnir sized ankh that glows and fires lightning. Plus it got broken.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
What? A character has to bleeding to be hurt? Both instances had Juggernaut on his last legs.

This is some dumb shit even by today standards, never mind back when comics were a lot less bloody. Thor has never bruised, bloodied, scratch, Juggernaut, not once... and yes you have to be at least bruised to be hurt, which thor has never acomplished.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
And Collusos was getting damaged by Kuurth. So...

thats not an issue, as the gem provides an Unlimited Healing Factor to juggernaut(cain, colossus) so any damage done will be healed super fast

Originally posted by googol
thor never "Beat the Crap" out classic Juggernaut, he has never draw blood or any type of fluids(Crap, piss) out of juggernaut, thor is incapable of doing any damage to juggernaut, with or without forcefield

Yeah, Juggernaut was fine and dandy here:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/JuggernautvsThor6.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/JuggernautvsThor7.jpg

Congratulations on the exceptionally flawed logic. I guess since Thor didn't draw blood but Feral did, she clearly did more damage:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/109340/2147811-shatterstarvjug1.jpg

Despite Thor beating Juggernaut so bad he could barely stand.

Kuurth was breaking Juggernaut's bones and shit, but I guess since we didn't see blood, he wasn't taking any damage. Seriously, such dumb logic. I've seen characters beaten to near death and not bleed.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Congratulations on the exceptionally flawed logic. I guess since Thor didn't draw blood but Feral did, she clearly did more damage:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/109340/2147811-shatterstarvjug1.jpg
lol, what terrible art.

Also, was it ever said that Juggernaut had an "unlimited" healing factor?

Originally posted by googol
Thor has never bruised, bloodied, scratch, Juggernaut, not once... and yes you have to be at least bruised to be hurt, which thor has never acomplished.

So, just to be clear, you don't believe Juggernaut has ever damaged Thor either right?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
lol, what terrible art.

Also, was it ever said that Juggernaut had an "unlimited" healing factor?

He was able to survive as a skeleton in that one shot and Colossus healed from some pretty severe damage so the healing factor can be pretty up there.

But like with all characters with healing factors, it doesn't mean you can't be taken out. Captain Universe beat the absolute shit out of Juggernaut put him in a mini-coma IIRC and Onslaught knocked him the hell out. Thor was also about to knock him out.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
But like with all characters with healing factors, it doesn't mean you can't be taken out. Captain Universe beat the absolute shit out of Juggernaut put him in a mini-coma IIRC and Onslaught knocked him the hell out. Thor was also about to knock him out.

the whole Cap Universe was just bad drawing, even Cap said so, he said he knew he could not hurt juggernaut physically or mentally with his helmet on, so all he did was us its PC powers to open juggernaut's helmet and "Mind Blast" him which knock him out, how the hell a Mind blast was able to bruise juggernaut's face its beyod resaon, anyways this is a feat Thor cant pull neither the Destroyer(no mental attacks) so any of you can forget about it... Onslaught just knocked him over a long distance, no sign of broken bones or even bruised face....

and Thor never Knocked him out, just as much as War hulk never did hurt Juggernaut

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
So, just to be clear, you don't believe Juggernaut has ever damaged Thor either right? He never really tried...

in the 8th day he was hurting him in a bear hugg

Originally posted by googol
He never really tried...

in the 8th day he was hurting him in a bear hugg

Cute trolling. No, he wasn't. Thor didn't even have so much as a bruise, try again.

Originally posted by googol
the whole Cap Universe was just bad drawing, even Cap said so, he said he knew he could not hurt juggernaut physically or mentally with his helmet on, so all he did was us its PC powers to open juggernaut's helmet and "Mind Blast" him which knock him out, how the hell a Mind blast was able to bruise juggernaut's face its beyod resaon, anyways this is a feat Thor cant pull neither the Destroyer(no mental attacks) so any of you can forget about it... Onslaught just knocked him over a long distance, no sign of broken bones or even bruised face....

and Thor never Knocked him out, just as much as War hulk never did hurt Juggernaut

What? Captain Universe beat his ass black and blue. He only ripped off Juggernaut's helmet to probe his mind for a weakness. Turned out it was punches:
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/126/spidercx.jpg

Eh? Pretty sure Onslaught ripped into his chest and he ended up knocked out at the X-men's lawn but it's been a while.

Thanos nearly killed Silver Surfer and we didn't see any blood, Thor nearly killed Red Hulk in there second fight, that's flawed logic if there you are beating on must show blood or something, just stupid!!

I think writters have done away with Juggernaut unbreakable invulnerability. The more time passed, the more commonly it became to injure him.

Originally posted by carver9
I think writters have done away with Juggernaut unbreakable invulnerability. The more time passed, the more commonly it became to injure him. Except Hulk has never hurt juggernaut, not once


and as for low feats, Hulk and Thor has been shown as Not Bullet proof(on panel) yet Juggernaut has never had such issues..

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

What? Captain Universe beat his ass black and blue. He only ripped off Juggernaut's helmet to probe his mind for a weakness. Turned out it was punches:
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/126/spidercx.jpg

. Wrong Again....

CU never punched Juggernaut, he use a mindblast. you really are grasping at straws arent you? you are a fool if you believe punches can hurt juggernaut's face at all.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
There we go, was that so hard?

Although that makes the feat possibly universal, it doesn't change much since it's still the same characters being used from 616.

That scan was not readily available to me. After I got done with playing Gears with my bud, I did a simple search on Google, something you can't seem to do, found a torrent, cut my grass, came back in, download was done and posted that scan.

At least now you know there is no doubt you are wrong and just making a fool of yourself. Its best not to take incorrect and assumed information like you do a post it as fact.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
That scan was not readily available to me. After I got done with playing Gears with my bud, I did a simple search on Google, something you can't seem to do, found a torrent, cut my grass, came back in, download was done and posted that scan.

At least now you know there is no doubt you are wrong and just making a fool of yourself. Its best not to take incorrect and assumed information like you do a post it as fact. Why would I go looking for something when all my proof was there in the comic? Do you listen to yourself?
I'm wrong about the reality (although it's still 616 characters so that's irrelevant like I said a while ago), but lol at me having to go find a sentence that seemingly goes against the comic.

But yes, wrong on the unimportant aspect. And you literally ignored my point to gloat about nothing. It being an alternate reality doesn't change the fact that the were 616 characters that warped into those characters, and then were warped back.

Onto the original point of posting those scans...

Anyway, if a torch, D'Sprayre, Hulk, Nimrod, Thor (when he took his shield down), Rulk, Onslaught, GayponytailsStar, Captain Universe, and a shield that effects him on a cellular level can damage Juggernaut physically, then Destroyer is going to tear Juggernaut in half

Lol, you really are stupid. We're done. 616 characters? Juggernaut is not a mutant, Thor is not Egyptian. The proof in the comic is that it was not the 616 Earth. These characters still exist on Earth 9105 as they were shown to be brought in on a different Avengers story. There is more to that earth than simply being "warped" back. I proved you wrong on several things and yet you still cling to false info as if you think it wins you the argument. You could post a response to this, but you've lost credibility in all this and I don't care enough to respond to you.

Good day.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Lol, you really are stupid. We're done. 616 characters? Juggernaut is not a mutant, Thor is not Egyptian. The proof in the comic is that it was not the 616 Earth. These characters still exist on Earth 9105 as they were shown to be brought in on a different Avengers story. There is more to that earth than simply being "warped" back. I proved you wrong on several things and yet you still cling to false info as if you think it wins you the argument. You could post a response to this, but you've lost credibility in all this and I don't care enough to respond to you.

Good day. the only thing you've actually proven is that it was an alternate reality. And you dropped every other point you had as soon as it was answered.

The proof is in the comic, and the comic states she used pre existing characters, and the end of the comic shows she warped everything back to the real characters. Wether the reality continued after that is irrelevant, since the characters involved at the specific time were for all intents and purposes 616 characters. I realize it'd be an issue if Thor turned into a dragon and started to shoot pantsuits out of his mouth, but all that happened was that every character had superficial differences with no discernible power difference in their regular power.

Boo hoo at the mutant part though. Juggernaut has worse feats than that, and his best feat happened when he was thought to be a mutant. Which was your whole point of why it mattered. The character didn't have a static history until like the the late 90's since no one cared farther than his strength and ok durability

Juggernaut still loses badly. Even the severely amped 8th Day Juggernaut would be trashed by Destroyer

Does anyone have scans or info on how strong the destroyer is?

Originally posted by Supra
Does anyone have scans or info on how strong the destroyer is? its strength was a ways over Thor, and its beam cut Mjolnir in half.
Its hand beams also tore through Hulk like butter

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
its strength was a ways over Thor, and its beam cut Mjolnir in half.
Its hand beams also tore through Hulk like butter

Jeexus! Thats f'ing powerful! What happened to Thor after Mjolnir was cut in half, did he get it back?

Mjolnir was eventually repaired.

The Destroyer also wound up killing Thor with its disintegration beam. And that was a random mortal host animating the suit.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Mjolnir was eventually repaired.

The Destroyer also wound up killing Thor with its disintegration beam. And that was a random mortal host animating the suit.

When Thor died did he go to Valhalla and then Odin brought him back to Asgaurd?

Originally posted by Supra
Jeexus! Thats f'ing powerful! What happened to Thor after Mjolnir was cut in half, did he get it back?
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsDestroyer02.jpg

Thor stayed in that floor for a bit, then got turned intangible, then ran away and found the mortal host of the Destroyer.

Funny, I remembered that being eyebeams... but yeah, it's when he opens his visor that that's when his 'ultimate' power comes out.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsDestroyer02.jpg

Thor stayed in that floor for a bit, then got turned intangible, then ran away and found the mortal host of the Destroyer.

Funny, I remembered that being eyebeams... but yeah, it's when he opens his visor that that's when his 'ultimate' power comes out.

Damn in the comics the destroyer kicks Thors ass in the movie, Thor kicks the destroyers ass!

Originally posted by Supra
When Thor died did he go to Valhalla and then Odin brought him back to Asgaurd?

When he died, he went to Hel and Hela was about to claim his soul until Marnot (really one of Odin's ravens in disguise) revived him.

Originally posted by googol
Except Hulk has never hurt juggernaut, not once


and as for low feats, Hulk and Thor has been shown as Not Bullet proof(on panel) yet Juggernaut has never had such issues..


Uuuummmm, Hulk has punched the wind completely out of Juggernaut having him on the ground on his knees grasping for air and he did this in a couple of blows.

Thor nearly koed Juggernaut until his force field came up. What are you talking about?

Originally posted by Supra
Damn in the comics the destroyer kicks Thors ass in the movie, Thor kicks the destroyers ass! The mere fact that Thor even lasts against the Destroyer is a feat in itself.

Especially when it can beat him this easily:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsDestroyer40.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsDestroyer41.jpg

That's why he was seen as such a weapon in the movie... before he was made to look like a sissy.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
The mere fact that Thor even lasts against the Destroyer is a feat in itself.

Especially when it can beat him this easily:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsDestroyer40.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsDestroyer41.jpg

That's why he was seen as such a weapon in the movie... before he was made to look like a sissy.

Who was controlling the destroyer to attack Thor? I thought only Odin could command him. Or did Loki use one of his magic tricks?

Originally posted by Supra
Who was controlling the destroyer to attack Thor? I thought only Odin could command him. Or did Loki use one of his magic tricks? Just a random human host.

Pretty much anyone can control the Destroyer though. And Odin can put a stop to them if he wants to.

That Destroyer also helped out against Zelia later on, though I can't recall if it was the same host or not.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Just a random human host.

Pretty much anyone can control the Destroyer though. And Odin can put a stop to them if he wants to.

That Destroyer also helped out against Zelia later on, though I can't recall if it was the same host or not.

Its weird the all father can see all things even while he sleeps yet he did nothing to stop the destroyer from killing Thor.

When Thor died did he go to Valhalla and then Odin brought him back to Asgaurd?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Just a random human host.

Pretty much anyone can control the Destroyer though. And Odin can put a stop to them if he wants to.

That Destroyer also helped out against Zelia later on, though I can't recall if it was the same host or not.

Yeah, it was the same host.

Originally posted by Supra
Its weird the all father can see all things even while he sleeps yet he did nothing to stop the destroyer from killing Thor.

When Thor died did he go to Valhalla and then Odin brought him back to Asgaurd? Odin's a dick.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
When he died, he went to Hel and Hela was about to claim his soul until Marnot (really one of Odin's ravens in disguise) revived him.

I thought worthy Asgaurdians all went to Valhalla after death

Hela has the ability to claim Asgardian souls for her own if she so chooses. Odin can "veto" her, though.