Who has the greatest knowledge of magic in comics?

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Golgo13
Top 3 only.

1. Constantine?
2. Fate?
3. Strange?

JakeTheBank
Doom.

Golgo13
How is he in the top 3?

JakeTheBank
His feats within the past few years.

753
merlin

Golgo13
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
His feats within the past few years.

And how does he rank against guys like Fate W/Helm and Constantine. Please elaborate.

JakeTheBank
Doom currently is at least as well learned as Strange. More so if you do decide to take the statements made by Strange himself and Wanda at face value, which really, there's no reason not to.

pym-ftw
Originally posted by 753
merlin
Merlyn is my vote aswell

Golgo13
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Doom currently is at least as well learned as Strange. More so if you do decide to take the statements made by Strange himself and Wanda at face value, which really, there's no reason not to. [/QUOTE

I'd vote Fate ahead of Strange. His Helm is an infinite source of all things and is basically an encyclopedia worth of magic inside.

Golgo13
Originally posted by pym-ftw
Merlyn is my vote aswell

What has Merlyn done?

pym-ftw
He is the guardian of the omniverse

Golgo13
That doesn't mean he has more magic knowledge than Strange or Fate.

753
no. but he does anyway.

Golgo13
Originally posted by 753
no. but he does anyway.

Those types of statements don't make it true. I want to see actually feats. Saying he's the guardian of the omniverse doesn't necessarily describe his power levels or knowledge. Fate and the rest of the Orders of chaos have existed before the actual Multiverse and possibly magic. They have knowledge of ALL magic. So, how is Merlyn more knowledgeable than Fate or Strange?

MF DELPH
1. Ancient One
2. Mordru
3. Dormammu

-K-M-
Doom does not have the most knowledge in magic....erm

JakeTheBank
Didn't say he does. But on panel, as of now, he's at least as well learned as Strange. There's been more than one comparison between the two since Doom's push toward being a top tier sorcerer on Earth, so it's not like a one-off thing.

pym-ftw
Shuma-Gorath could be considered aswell

SevenShackles
On that list? fate.
Your list is lacking tbh.

-K-M-
There's a lot of people that could be considered, but as the thread said it's between the three

Omega Vision
I'll be the dick who says "A Supreme Being"

Golgo13
Originally posted by SevenShackles
On that list? fate.
Your list is lacking tbh.

Those are my top 3 for the moment. It's not something you have to use. I'd like to see some reasons, instead of just naming off characters. Both Constantine and Fate have had similar amount of knowledge in all things magic, thouigh.

Golgo13
Originally posted by -K-M-
There's a lot of people that could be considered, but as the thread said it's between the three

It doesn't have to be. So who is your top 3 and why?

Golgo13
BTW, just keep this in the herald range. Nothing too powerful like Mordru or Shuma.

-K-M-
You may need to put a cap on it, as you could go Ancient One, Nabu, the Vishanti, Mauvais (more powerful then Strange), Odin, etc.

ozz81
Mordru

SevenShackles
Originally posted by Golgo13
Those are my top 3 for the moment. It's not something you have to use. I'd like to see some reasons, instead of just naming off characters. Both Constantine and Fate have had similar amount of knowledge in all things magic, thouigh.
Overall fate is just more impressive to me and given it's a matter of 'greatest knowledge of magic' and despite Constantines current push into greatness having Nabu in a can gives fate the edge to top out over the other two. My opinion anyway.

Horrificus
Strange

Golgo13
So, it's Strange and Doom in Marvel. And Fate and Constantine in DC.

pym-ftw
Loki in Marvel in all honesty

Golgo13
So,
Strange
Doom
Loki

nannasin28
they have existed before the actual Multiverse and possibly magic.

LM7805

lannfear
Where would you place Modred the mystic ?

beatboks
The way I see it, Constantine ( at least classic not fully around Nu52 though i am getting JL Dark just behind) is more knowledgeable on the "rules of the universe" than magic itself. It's not that he has the mystic answer to everything ( at least not in Hell Blazer) it's that he knows the rules these guy's have to play by and uses their won rules to tie them up. He plays the con to get them to stick their proverbial heads in the noose of their own rules so they have to play the game his way.

As such I wouldn't place him as anywhere near the "most knowledgeable in magic on any list. Kick ass character who can take almost anyone to town but his knowledge is certainly limited. The proof of this was in the trenchcoat Brigade. He blustered and Bluffed but ALL the others ( Occult, Mr E, and Phantom Stranger) had greater knowledge in magic than him.

In DCU I'd say the most Knowledgeable pre Flashpoint was the Phantom Stranger. He was the one who always seemed to be able to explain the intricacies of magic to others. He always demonstrated a greater knowledge of the overall plan too. Which sort of fit's with the inference that eh was the agent of the Presences Hope like Spectre was fro vengeance, that he was intended to be there in every man's darkest hour to help them make the hard choice but never influence them.

Honestly Fate is also not what I would call the most knowledgeable in DCU. I'm a Dr Fate fan (boy) but really there are far too many instances of him just not getting the whole picture or having the right way. Hell even Nabu was shown to be short in that dept a few times. it was shown during the Straus Run ( as Fate) that Nabu's new life as a lowly mortal in Kent's orginal body was opening his eyes to things he had previously been denied because of his arrogance. he became aware of the greater plan etc etc.

The same happened to Shat-Ru ( another Lord of order) to a degree in Inza run as Fate. Mordru was easily more knowledgeable than both these two in magic and really he's not that OP. He started out being able to be taken down by Lady Amethyst in his own place of Power. That was back when he first assumed a mortal gaze, the thing was unlike Nabu and others who did so he didn't just put himself in the body of a mortal he also absorbed the soul essence of the being he occupied. So where they became limited by their mortal form he was not. He was constantly able to absorb and grow in power and use more power. He slowly absorbed the power of many he killed like Lords of Order and Chaos. BY the 30th century he had absorbed Sorcerers world and all the magic in the universe ( almost). I would say that makes him a little more knowledgeable than either Fate or Constantine. He's powerful because he's knowledgeable not the other way around and in marvel that would be the Ancient one.

abhilegend
Not Doom.

sneer

Supermex
Strange
Loki
Mordo

I'm Marvel

Endless Mike
What about Agamotto?

Sixth_Winged
Id say Chthon for mu. Guy is so knowledgeable about stuff he wrote a book.

Wei Phoenix
Sise-Neg?

unknowable
fate

TheHulk
Strange,Fate and def not Doom!

JakeTheBank
I would read comics with Doom in it before stating that.

With the cap at herald level, it's, frankly, stupid to argue against Doom not even being placed.

-K-M-
I would put Shaman or Talisman over Doom.

Galan007
You're dumber than I thought. thumb down

-K-M-
I'm content with my choices in life....so so so so content sad

Galan007
thumb up

the Darkone
No Order

Odin
Nabu
Shazam
Loki
Karnilla
Dr. Strange
Dr Fate
Mordru
Dr. Doom
Tailsman
Shaman
Clea

Golgo13
No love for Arion, guys? He'd be in top 5 for sure.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/Ar_zps8c7287d9.jpg

Galan007
The whole Sorcerers' World concept solidified that even the power of 5D Imps falls under category of 'magical'.

That said, Mxy takes this. thumb up

Oliver North
all comics?

Giselle from Mystic would be up there for sure.

beatboks
Originally posted by Golgo13
No love for Arion, guys? He'd be in top 5 for sure.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/Ar_zps8c7287d9.jpg

Yeah I'm a fan of Arion too. The thing is as far as knowledge goes there are also many instances of his knowledge of magic ( and all things in general )not being that vast.

For example in the scan you chose, this was from a time that he actually didn't know most of his history. He was unaware of his origin altogether. At that point he didn't even know That Calculhah and Dark Majestra were his parents. He also didn't remember the sacrifice he made to save Earth centuries before and how his father had merged his essence with a star to save his existence.

His knowledge was so wanting that he had completely lost power four of five times during his series. After his fathers death at the hands of his brother he relied very heavily on the guidance of pieces of Calculhah's spirit in crystals that he had used an enchantment to capture his essence in. He also gained knowledge from Calculhah's citadel when he found it in the dark worlds and still had to be "taught" certain facts about the ways of Magic in the dark worlds by a familiar in the issue where he finally faced and defeated his Mother for teh last time.

Arion's magic was far more instinctual than knowledge based and he honestly lucked his way through a LOT of things. In turns of knowledge his evil Brother Garn Dannauth was far more equipped. For one thing all the centuries that Arion spent as a star in the heavens Garn was learning from their mother.

Golgo13
Originally posted by beatboks
Yeah I'm a fan of Arion too. The thing is as far as knowledge goes there are also many instances of his knowledge of magic ( and all things in general )not being that vast.

For example in the scan you chose, this was from a time that he actually didn't know most of his history. He was unaware of his origin altogether. At that point he didn't even know That Calculhah and Dark Majestra were his parents. He also didn't remember the sacrifice he made to save Earth centuries before and how his father had merged his essence with a star to save his existence.

His knowledge was so wanting that he had completely lost power four of five times during his series. After his fathers death at the hands of his brother he relied very heavily on the guidance of pieces of Calculhah's spirit in crystals that he had used an enchantment to capture his essence in. He also gained knowledge from Calculhah's citadel when he found it in the dark worlds and still had to be "taught" certain facts about the ways of Magic in the dark worlds by a familiar in the issue where he finally faced and defeated his Mother for teh last time.

Arion's magic was far more instinctual than knowledge based and he honestly lucked his way through a LOT of things. In turns of knowledge his evil Brother Garn Dannauth was far more equipped. For one thing all the centuries that Arion spent as a star in the heavens Garn was learning from their mother.

I just chose that pic, because I like the art. Who is on your list, BTW?

Uriel005
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Doom. i'd actually agree with this as a contender and not just because its doom. His knowledge is actually broader than Dr. Strange and most mortal mystics though he lacks the raw power of Dr. Strange. Hell Strange has consulted with him on mystic matters on occasion. That said is this discussion including non-mortals or what.

Non-mortals between the vishanti/deity figures in Marvel.

DC I'd say Merlin or Mordru as lord of the Sorcerer's world. Maybe Shazam/Nabu.

In terms of mortals I'd give Doom the nod in terms of raw knowledge at his disposal for Marvel

John Constantine has a lot of knowledge but is less than enthusiastic about practicing most of what he knows but as per stips i'll give it to him or someone from trenchcoat brigade barring phantom stranger

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Uriel005
i'd actually agree with this as a contender and not just because its doom. His knowledge is actually broader than Dr. Strange and most mortal mystics though he lacks the raw power of Dr. Strange. Hell Strange has consulted with him on mystic matters on occasion. That said is this discussion including non-mortals or what.

Non-mortals between the vishanti/deity figures in Marvel.

DC I'd say Merlin or Mordru as lord of the Sorcerer's world. Maybe Shazam/Nabu.

In terms of mortals I'd give Doom the nod in terms of raw knowledge at his disposal for Marvel

John Constantine has a lot of knowledge but is less than enthusiastic about practicing most of what he knows but as per stips i'll give it to him or someone from trenchcoat brigade barring phantom stranger

thumb up

Ever since Mark Waid's run on F4, Doom's sorcery has been steadily and steadily been touched upon and his feats have shown repeated increase both in knowledge and power. Comparing him now to the "mid tier mage" Strange described him as years ago is a complete injustice to the character as well as ignoring all of his development. I mean, how many comparisons to we have to see made between Doom and Strange to get to the very clear message that currently, Doom is at least as well learned as Strange is in the mystic arts?

Golgo13
Strange has had entire runs to show feats of all kinds of magic, whether that is black magic, white, etc... He's even created his own type of magic as well. What type of magic has Doom displayed? And is it as much as Strange?

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Golgo13
Strange has had entire runs to show feats of all kinds of magic, whether that is black magic, white, etc... He's even created his own type of magic as well. What type of magic has Doom displayed? And is it as much as Strange?

Doom's displayed dark magic, has effortlessly infused technology with sorcery (which is a magic feat in of itself as the two schools of thought seem to be in opposition with one another). He's also used chronal magic, summoning magic, and has - on multiple occasions now - had his knowledge directly compared to Strange's own. And then there's what he did in Children's Crusade.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Golgo13
Strange has had entire runs to show feats of all kinds of magic, whether that is black magic, white, etc... He's even created his own type of magic as well. What type of magic has Doom displayed? And is it as much as Strange? you have to understand that a lot of Doom's mystic know-how comes from his pursuit of his mother. The guy was prepping to toe-to-toe with anyone he might encounter in hell and ultimately Mephisto. IMO Doom mostly defers to tech answers because its ultimately more reliable and harder to on the spot counter rather than run the risk of encountering another mage who can pick apart his spells on the spot. Like I said he's not the most powerful mage around just more knowledgeable than most in many fields. Plus he has willpower out the wazoo which is half of magic.

On Strange. Strange has limited himself for years since his issues with black magic and sticks to white magic save for the most dire of circumstances. That is not to say he isn't knowledgeable in other areas but it falls out of his perceived purview. For instance brother vodoo is much more knowledgeable about vodoo and other shamanistic arts than Strange or Baron Mordo with black magic.

Golgo13
I saw a complete list of types of magic that strange knows and it dwarfs most mages in comics. I wish I could find that list again.

beatboks
Originally posted by Golgo13
I just chose that pic, because I like the art. Who is on your list, BTW?

For DC (Pre Flashpoint) I'ds say
1. Phantom Stranger
2. Mordru
3. Merlin
4. Nabu
5. Shazam / Circe

For Marvel
1. Ancient one
2. Agommotto
3. Sese Neg
4. Doom / Strange

That's based on Knowledge NOT power

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