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Prep battle. Equal amount of prep. Which bad ass, manipulator wins?

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/VD_zpse02d2cc7.jpg

vs

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/TS_zpsba7756eb.jpg

IMO Dox, primarily because of his enhanced charisma program and the technopathy of his AI/Shield Silica ( which has better feats that IM's tecnopathy - i.e jacking a whole quadrant of space). Silica accesses Stark's suit the ECP is uploaded and Stark becomes Vrill's willing puppy.

Vril Dox, mainly because he's fifty times the man Stark is

Drox obviously

Originally posted by iceman24567
Drox obviously


HaHaHa... NO

I win

Iron Man, he has 3 movies.

Originally posted by Mindset
Iron Man, he has 3 movies.



You are correct O'wiseone

Dox defeats Tony the same way he did LOBO.

WITH BOOZE!

Because Tony is a BIG DRUNK!

Originally posted by Mindset
Iron Man, he has 3 movies.

Superman trumps every character, then. He has like 5, with a 6th one coming up.




Seriously, Dox would win, IMO.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Superman trumps every character, then. He has like 5, with a 6th one coming up.




Seriously, Dox would win, IMO.

Batman says hello.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Batman says hello.

Superman has the longest running sci fi show of all time. Batman does have the best with the highs, with TAS, so Batgod would probably win with quality.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Superman has the longest running sci fi show of all time. Batman does have the best with the highs, with TAS, so Batgod would probably win with quality. Longest Sci Fi show??? Surely you jest?

Sides. Dox wins cause he has the Ulitmate Secret Weapon.

Originally posted by Flyattractor
Longest Sci Fi show??? Surely you jest?

Sides. Dox wins cause he has the Ulitmate Secret Weapon.

That ultimate galaxy destroying weapon was a bluff !!
Both the Kund and the Dominion empires were trying to get their hands on that doomsday device. Dox beat them too it and realized it was based on a false premise and wouldn't work.
That was why he handed it to the people of the planet on the border of both empires to keep them in check.

1. Dox's Force field / artificial AI has tanked more than Tony's BEST armor has.
2. It has tecnopathically controlled 10000's of times more and spread it's field of control over complete galaxies
3. His enhanced charisma protocols have controlled entire planetary and galaxy populations and are subliminal so not something you can consciously fight.
4. He has mastered and backward engineered tech from 10 centuries ahead in less than minutes
4. He has mastery a lot more fields of science not just engineering but botany, genetics, and much more.
His engineering feats easily match and exceed Tony's ( Creating Silica the AI and technopath/ force field, devices that literally counter and make ineffective the powers of every member of his team as well as several very powerful enemies he's faced)
Genetics he has cloned himself, genetically enhanced himself enough to be Lobo's match in physical combat, He has also altered other super beings genetic markers enough to alter their abilities.
5. He is a tactical genius who has defeated with superior tactics intellects far above his like Brainiac, Brainiac 5, Pulsar Stargrave and Lyrl ( Brainiac 3)
6. He's also a master of Psychology and manipulation who has controlled the actions of others by simply playing their nature against them ( both allies and enemies)

Considering he appears in a little over 200 issues compared to the 6000 Tony does he has amased feats that match all the best Tony has whihc shows a greater consistecy of the high end feats also.

Originally posted by beatboks
That ultimate galaxy destroying weapon was a bluff !!
Both the Kund and the Dominion empires were trying to get their hands on that doomsday device. Dox beat them too it and realized it was based on a false premise and wouldn't work.
That was why he handed it to the people of the planet on the border of both empires to keep them in check.

1. Dox's Force field / artificial AI has tanked more than Tony's BEST armor has.
2. It has tecnopathically controlled 10000's of times more and spread it's field of control over complete galaxies
3. His enhanced charisma protocols have controlled entire planetary and galaxy populations and are subliminal so not something you can consciously fight.
4. He has mastered and backward engineered tech from 10 centuries ahead in less than minutes
4. He has mastery a lot more fields of science not just engineering but botany, genetics, and much more.
His engineering feats easily match and exceed Tony's ( Creating Silica the AI and technopath/ force field, devices that literally counter and make ineffective the powers of every member of his team as well as several very powerful enemies he's faced)
Genetics he has cloned himself, genetically enhanced himself enough to be Lobo's match in physical combat, He has also altered other super beings genetic markers enough to alter their abilities.
5. He is a tactical genius who has defeated with superior tactics intellects far above his like Brainiac, Brainiac 5, Pulsar Stargrave and Lyrl ( Brainiac 3)
6. He's also a master of Psychology and manipulation who has controlled the actions of others by simply playing their nature against them ( both allies and enemies)

Considering he appears in a little over 200 issues compared to the 6000 Tony does he has amased feats that match all the best Tony has whihc shows a greater consistecy of the high end feats also.



Didn't Vril also put Despero's head back on? Made him whole again.

Originally posted by Golgo13


Didn't Vril also put Despero's head back on? Made him whole again.

Yeah that's how he got him to serve him.

Also as Spin doctor he's made the population of entire star systems do what he wants.

Originally posted by beatboks
That ultimate galaxy destroying weapon was a bluff !!
Both the Kund and the Dominion empires were trying to get their hands on that doomsday device. Dox beat them too it and realized it was based on a false premise and wouldn't work.
That was why he handed it to the people of the planet on the border of both empires to keep them in check.

1. Dox's Force field / artificial AI has tanked more than Tony's BEST armor has.
2. It has tecnopathically controlled 10000's of times more and spread it's field of control over complete galaxies
3. His enhanced charisma protocols have controlled entire planetary and galaxy populations and are subliminal so not something you can consciously fight.
4. He has mastered and backward engineered tech from 10 centuries ahead in less than minutes
4. He has mastery a lot more fields of science not just engineering but botany, genetics, and much more.
His engineering feats easily match and exceed Tony's ( Creating Silica the AI and technopath/ force field, devices that literally counter and make ineffective the powers of every member of his team as well as several very powerful enemies he's faced)
Genetics he has cloned himself, genetically enhanced himself enough to be Lobo's match in physical combat, He has also altered other super beings genetic markers enough to alter their abilities.
5. He is a tactical genius who has defeated with superior tactics intellects far above his like Brainiac, Brainiac 5, Pulsar Stargrave and Lyrl ( Brainiac 3)
6. He's also a master of Psychology and manipulation who has controlled the actions of others by simply playing their nature against them ( both allies and enemies)

Considering he appears in a little over 200 issues compared to the 6000 Tony does he has amased feats that match all the best Tony has whihc shows a greater consistecy of the high end feats also. A few notes:

1. Debatable, considering the armors Stark's built. SKIN Armor, Thorbuster, etc.
2. This sounds like a cool feat. Reference?
3. How come it feels like there's still an air of distrust when people look to associate themselves with him? Honest question.
4. Stark invented the Bleeding Edge armor based on Kid Kang's armor, who was from the 31st century. And he didn't need to reverse engineer it. He just looked at him and thought that was cool enough to invent.
5. Stark's done impressive things with genetics and engineering. He created a genetic disrupter that power drained everybody.

Not sure Vril Dox has matched all of Stark's best feats. Just recently, Stark split apart the raw Phoenixforce.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Seriously, Dox would win, IMO. is that why you made the thread?

Originally posted by beatboks
That ultimate galaxy destroying weapon was a bluff !!
Both the Kund and the Dominion empires were trying to get their hands on that doomsday device. Dox beat them too it and realized it was based on a false premise and wouldn't work.
That was why he handed it to the people of the planet on the border of both empires to keep them in check.

No. The weapon created by Prof. Rn'nt'nt'n isn't Dox's 'ulitmate weapon...




http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_pScx8BN4h3s/TLBVgpJV-hI/AAAAAAAAKVM/RDzPtlDthP8/s1600/rebels+21-02.jpg



THIS IS!

Originally posted by psycho gundam
is that why you made the thread?

I've known this since day 1 when I came on KMC. This guy consistently makes bait/spite threads in favor of DC over Marvel.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Superman has the longest running sci fi show of all time.

What?

Are you talking about Smallville, with what, ten seasons? Doctor Who's 34 total seasons would disagree with you.

Originally posted by ODG
A few notes:

1. Debatable, considering the armors Stark's built. SKIN Armor, Thorbuster, etc.
2. This sounds like a cool feat. Reference?
3. How come it feels like there's still an air of distrust when people look to associate themselves with him? Honest question.
4. Stark invented the Bleeding Edge armor based on Kid Kang's armor, who was from the 31st century. And he didn't need to reverse engineer it. He just looked at him and thought that was cool enough to invent.
5. Stark's done impressive things with genetics and engineering. He created a genetic disrupter that power drained everybody.

Not sure Vril Dox has matched all of Stark's best feats. Just recently, Stark split apart the raw Phoenixforce.

1. I was considering Thor buster when I made teh statement though not SKIN. Honestly not up on that one.

2. In the recent pre flashpoint series that is how Starro spread his sphere of influence so far so fast. He took control of Silica from Dox and using her control of all Dox's "robotic cop as well as tecnopathically controlling any defense of worlds he sent his spors to was able to take of massive areas of space faster than he ever had before.

3. Honestly because he is. No one who works with Dox trusts him. he always has his own agenda in which he includes no one. he doesn't trust anyone enough to keep them fully in the loop. Instead he always manipulates events so that their own natures make them do what he wants done ( he never trusts anyone enough to just ask). Those closest too him question and have suspicions over his every move because of their experience and yet he still manipulates their actions. He has only personally used his enhanced charisma program once to "save Colu" from itself ( he was talked out of using it again by the Durlan who pointed out that using it made him more like his father - who he hates with a passion). The program however has been used by his father to do much more damage and by his son to completely control a galaxy

Originally posted by beatboks
1. I was considering Thor buster when I made teh statement though not SKIN. Honestly not up on that one.

2. In the recent pre flashpoint series that is how Starro spread his sphere of influence so far so fast. He took control of Silica from Dox and using her control of all Dox's "robotic cop as well as tecnopathically controlling any defense of worlds he sent his spors to was able to take of massive areas of space faster than he ever had before.

3. Honestly because he is. No one who works with Dox trusts him. he always has his own agenda in which he includes no one. he doesn't trust anyone enough to keep them fully in the loop. Instead he always manipulates events so that their own natures make them do what he wants done ( he never trusts anyone enough to just ask). Those closest too him question and have suspicions over his every move because of their experience and yet he still manipulates their actions. He has only personally used his enhanced charisma program once to "save Colu" from itself ( he was talked out of using it again by the Durlan who pointed out that using it made him more like his father - who he hates with a passion). The program however has been used by his father to do much more damage and by his son to completely control a galaxy 1. Thorbuster held up better than Cap's shield against King Thor. I'd definitely be interested in seeing what Vril Dox has designed that trumps them. SKIN Armor was basically his adamantium-lite armor.

2. Based on this synopsis, where Starro begins and where Vril Dox ends concerning that feat is a bit hazy to me.

3. Again, where his father/son begin and where Vril Dox ends concerning that feat is a bit hazy to me.

1. Vril's force field has withstood black and yellow lanterns, point nlank Nuclear blasts and the the attacks of Pulsar Stargrave ( who in LoSH has taken down Superboy, Mon-el and ultra boy). at the very least it's a match.
2. Starro used Silica's capability. Dox still designed and biult the AI that Starro used without making any changes to it.
3. again he subliminal program was created and designed by Vril. his father and son simply used it once they found it. Vril used a modified watered down version regain the loyalty of his troops after he shut down the program that Lyrl had used. IIRC some of his higher operatives also questioned whether he had used it to have so many so fiercely loyal to him so quick after taking over the Cairn police force. he answered the quieries by fiving them full access to his computers. I would say a history of designing IT and subliminal programs thatcan control on a galactic level plays to the character who created them more than the one who may have eventually used them. After the Lyrl thing he set up safe guards to ensure it never happened again. I never got the end of the last run but would assume an in character Vril would have done the same after regaining control of Silica.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
What?

Are you talking about Smallville, with what, ten seasons? Doctor Who's 34 total seasons would disagree with you. Or Star Trek.

Originally posted by Raisen
I've known this since day 1 when I came on KMC. This guy consistently makes bait/spite threads in favor of DC over Marvel.

How is it spite?

Guys, no backseat modding.

Also, I wouldn't call Smallville a sci-fi show, tbh. It had sci-fi elements, but it's more a fantasy/teen drama than anything else.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Guys, no backseat modding.

Also, I wouldn't call Smallville a sci-fi show, tbh. It had sci-fi elements, but it's more a fantasy/teen drama than anything else.

It was the longest running something. Maybe it was fantssy, but I thought i read sci fi. Never saw the show tbh.

if you mean what it says here http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallville_(season_10)

it's just plain wrong.

Longest running embarrassment to the Superman mythos, maybe.

Smallville is like the 4th longest running sci fi series.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Guys, no backseat modding.

Also, I wouldn't call Smallville a sci-fi show, tbh. It had sci-fi elements, but it's more a fantasy/teen drama than anything else. Do you even know who Superman is, bro?

Originally posted by Mindset
Do you even know who Superman is, bro?

Well of course I do, I...

No, it's all A LIE! I secretly love Wolverine. cry

That's what happens when you move to Canada.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Longest running embarrassment to the Superman mythos, maybe.

I am starting to wonder if Tony and Dox can even be said to be on the same level of manipulation.

At least when comparing Tony to Dox. Dox is FAR more of a bastard then Tony. Tony is at heart a good person who as aims that are in the parameter of a good person that may have to do some bad things. Dox is a hyper intelligent infant in a adult body that was raised by a mad man with ablsolutely no morals. Dox takes things on a far more personal level then does Tony.

I think Dox would be the worst manipulator then Tony

Originally posted by -Pr-
Guys, no backseat modding.

Also, I wouldn't call Smallville a sci-fi show, tbh. It had sci-fi elements, but it's more a fantasy/teen drama than anything else.

I will admit there were a few episodes that made me a little giddy inside, though they were few and far between. For such a long series, I think I could count them with one hand. Pretty sad actually, but as a superman fan, I watched the whole series.

Originally posted by Flyattractor
I am starting to wonder if Tony and Dox can even be said to be on the same level of manipulation.

At least when comparing Tony to Dox. Dox is FAR more of a bastard then Tony. Tony is at heart a good person who as aims that are in the parameter of a good person that may have to do some bad things. Dox is a hyper intelligent infant in a adult body that was raised by a mad man with ablsolutely no morals. Dox takes things on a far more personal level then does Tony.

I think Dox would be the worst manipulator then Tony
When it comes to manipulation Dox is in a league all his own. I wouldn't say he's infantile so much as he hasn't developed any morals. He may play the 'hero/anti hero but it's only because he despises everything his father represents because of his hatred for him. The total irony is he has absolutely no problem using exactly the same methods as. brainiac so long as the ends are opposite.

Originally posted by Sh3nG L0nG
I will admit there were a few episodes that made me a little giddy inside, though they were few and far between. For such a long series, I think I could count them with one hand. Pretty sad actually, but as a superman fan, I watched the whole series.

I watched it when it started, and I watched it when It ended, but there's about three seasons in the middle I avoided due to that stupid witches thing.

Thorbuster armor is not canon. Its from an alternate reality.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I watched it when it started, and I watched it when It ended, but there's about three seasons in the middle I avoided due to that stupid witches thing. I watched every single horrible episode.

I guess we know who the real Superman fan is.

Me, it's me, Pr.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Thorbuster armor is not canon. Its from an alternate reality.

And lest they doubt :
http://s23.postimg.org/rjps0w587/alt_reality.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
Thorbuster armor is not canon. Its from an alternate reality.

Says who?

I'm looking at volume 3 issue 64 of Iron Man (first appearance of the Thorbuster armor). Standoff is a three part cross over arc (Thor #58, Iron Man #64, Avengers #63) and I don't have numbers 1 or 3 but nothing I'm seeing on the subject says it's an alternate reality.

Edit: You're talking about the Reigning arc? Doesn't change the fact that Thorbuster is canon to 616.

Originally posted by beatboks
1. Vril's force field has withstood black and yellow lanterns, point nlank Nuclear blasts and the the attacks of Pulsar Stargrave ( who in LoSH has taken down Superboy, Mon-el and ultra boy). at the very least it's a match.
2. Starro used Silica's capability. Dox still designed and biult the AI that Starro used without making any changes to it.
3. again he subliminal program was created and designed by Vril. his father and son simply used it once they found it. Vril used a modified watered down version regain the loyalty of his troops after he shut down the program that Lyrl had used. IIRC some of his higher operatives also questioned whether he had used it to have so many so fiercely loyal to him so quick after taking over the Cairn police force. he answered the quieries by fiving them full access to his computers. I would say a history of designing IT and subliminal programs thatcan control on a galactic level plays to the character who created them more than the one who may have eventually used them. After the Lyrl thing he set up safe guards to ensure it never happened again. I never got the end of the last run but would assume an in character Vril would have done the same after regaining control of Silica. 1. I don't see how any of that puts Dox's forcefield over Cap's shield, let alone the more durable Thorbuster armor.
2. It could be my fault, but that didn't really clear things up for me.
3. Neither did that.

Thorbuster armor is canon.

When King Thor went back in time to warn present day Thor of the future, the events which occurred right before Thor went beserk and killed Jake Olsen still happened by that point in time, which includes the Thorbuster armor skirmish. The only things that were prevented were Thor killing Olsen and forcibly taking over the world and killing many of his former allies in the process. But Asgard being moved to the Earthly plane and all the events which lead up to the government attacking it certainly still happened.

Not sure where the idea came from that it's not canon came from?

facepalm

Originally posted by Mindset
Or Star Trek.
Stargate Sg-1 holds the record for American shows.

Did you guys read the REBELS series a few years ago?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Stargate Sg-1 holds the record for American shows. If you take each incarnation of Star Trek as completely different entities.

Combined, they are the second longest running sci fi series.

Come at me.

Originally posted by Sh3nG L0nG
I will admit there were a few episodes that made me a little giddy inside, though they were few and far between. For such a long series, I think I could count them with one hand. Pretty sad actually, but as a superman fan, I watched the whole series.
The superhero registration arc with the suicide squad was pretty cool, but they disappointed on a lot of the big fights

Originally posted by ODG
1. I don't see how any of that puts Dox's forcefield over Cap's shield, let alone the more durable Thorbuster armor.
2. It could be my fault, but that didn't really clear things up for me.
3. Neither did that.

I'm not saying over but basically his force fields have tanked damage that Superman could dish out and take. I've seen nothing from Thorbuster armor to indicate it could take that that level of Damage. Basically Dox's force field has tanked planet destroying attacks. Pulsar Stargrave can solo the LoSH and take out 5 Kryptonian level beings almost at once. He is basically a living star with Kryptonian level strength durability etc. PS hates Dox more than anyone becaue it was Dox who ripped his 2000 year long reign over Colu from him and trapped him in his carbon based form ( a thing he hates). I can assure you he would not have been holding back against Dox.

To simplify the other two.

Dox designed and built silica and cam up with his enhanced charisma program.

Silica, his creation ( with NO CHANGES made by anyone else) has feats of technopathically controlling whole quadrants of space / entire galaxies at the same time. This far and away exceeds the best feat Tony has with any of his devices in technopathy.

The enhanced charisma program when used by others has allowed them to completely control worlds or galaxies. When used by Dox it's made a world hero worship him to the point they will do what ever he says.

Tony has no defense against subliminal messages and since he is predominantly a tech guy is MORE susceptible to them than a non tech player. That combined with the fact that a superior technopath is standard gear for Dox means Dox can control both Tony's armor and mind/perceptions/motivations from the outset of the fight. One could argue that tony also has technopathic feats except it would be like arguing that Luke Cage has super strength and can match Superman. Using technopathy on a global scale cannot compare to having a device that does it on a galactic one.

Originally posted by Mindset
I watched every single horrible episode.

I guess we know who the real Superman fan is.

Me, it's me, Pr.

Well, someone had to take one for the team.

Originally posted by beatboks
I'm not saying over but basically his force fields have tanked damage that Superman could dish out and take. I've seen nothing from Thorbuster armor to indicate it could take that that level of Damage. Basically Dox's force field has tanked planet destroying attacks. ... are you comparing Superman to King Thor??? Originally posted by beatboks
Pulsar Stargrave can solo the LoSH and take out 5 Kryptonian level beings almost at once. He is basically a living star with Kryptonian level strength durability etc. PS hates Dox more than anyone becaue it was Dox who ripped his 2000 year long reign over Colu from him and trapped him in his carbon based form ( a thing he hates). I can assure you he would not have been holding back against Dox. Even taking all that for granted, I still don't understand how Kryptonian strength trumps King Thor's attacks (who wasn't holding back either). Originally posted by beatboks
To simplify the other two.

Dox designed and built silica and cam up with his enhanced charisma program.

Silica, his creation ( with NO CHANGES made by anyone else) has feats of technopathically controlling whole quadrants of space / entire galaxies at the same time. This far and away exceeds the best feat Tony has with any of his devices in technopathy.

The enhanced charisma program when used by others has allowed them to completely control worlds or galaxies. When used by Dox it's made a world hero worship him to the point they will do what ever he says.

Tony has no defense against subliminal messages and since he is predominantly a tech guy is MORE susceptible to them than a non tech player. That combined with the fact that a superior technopath is standard gear for Dox means Dox can control both Tony's armor and mind/perceptions/motivations from the outset of the fight. One could argue that tony also has technopathic feats except it would be like arguing that Luke Cage has super strength and can match Superman. Using technopathy on a global scale cannot compare to having a device that does it on a galactic one. Granting what you say, Silica easily sounds like a greater technopath than Stark was. Though the more you keep trying to describe it, the less Starro there seems to be. Why the disconnect?

I don't see why you would assume Stark has no defense against subliminal messages or why this enhanced charisma would prove especially effective against a tech opponent like Stark. If you have scans of Vril Dox easily controlling his opponents from the outset of his fights (especially tech-oriented ones), I'm interested in seeing them.

Either way, the sheer scale of Silica's feat is impressive. For sheer scale, do you believe that Stark prepping and thwarting an Abstract force of the universe is impressive? Because this isn't a random encounter but a prep war.

Originally posted by ODG
... are you comparing Superman to King Thor??? Even taking all that for granted, I still don't understand how Kryptonian strength trumps King Thor's attacks (who wasn't holding back either). Granting what you say, Silica easily sounds like a greater technopath than Stark was. Though the more you keep trying to describe it, the less Starro there seems to be. Why the disconnect?

I don't see why you would assume Stark has no defense against subliminal messages or why this enhanced charisma would prove especially effective against a tech opponent like Stark. If you have scans of Vril Dox easily controlling his opponents from the outset of his fights (especially tech-oriented ones), I'm interested in seeing them.

Either way, the sheer scale of Silica's feat is impressive. For sheer scale, do you believe that Stark prepping and thwarting an Abstract force of the universe is impressive? Because this isn't a random encounter but a prep war.

On the first two point what I'm trying to say is that there are a few instances of his force fields tanking things that Superman couldn't. Pulsar Stargrave has taken on and down four or five Kryptonian level beings at once, yet he has not done so to Dox courtesy of his shields. Dox has defeated him several times. If Dox's shield on three or four occasions has withstood damage that a couple of Kryptonian level beings have been shown unable too, I'd say that is a durability feat above anything I've seen or heard of from the Thor buster armor ( which from my understanding could not "bust" or withstand Thor.

I'm really not sure what your fixation is on Starro. It wasn't a starro feat it was a feat of Silica Dox's personal AI and Force Field. I never "connected" Starro to the feat to have to disconnect him. All Starro did was have a couple of LEGION operatives who were controlled by his spors enter LEGION HQ that enabled him to take Silica as his own.. If Tony created a weapon that could destroy a solar system and normally carries, and someone stole it and used it would it make that weapon that he normally has no longer valid for him?? I fail to see why I have to "play down" Starro's part at all. he stole a device that Dox created which allowed him to control several galaxies in a fraction of the time it would have normally taken him to conquer them.

Dox's prep is quite a thing to behold. he has

With a weeks prep as I recall altered his own DNA to enhance himself enough that he could best Lobo in a hand to hand fight.

With a coupe of days prep taken over a planet, defeated and destroyed every criminal on it and created an intergalactic police force.

With a few days prep defeated a galactic piracy ring that had four galaxies in fear and dissarray

With a month or so's prep and a little Spin doctoring he has basically conquered several galaxies and stopped the expansion of Four galactic empires.

With two days prep and under equipped he has orchestrated a complete evacuation of a planet about to be destroyed when he was told by every source that the resources to do so were impossible.

With mere hours prep he orchestrated a jail break from an inescapable prison designed to hold even powerful beings like Daxamites

While flying to his homework he planned and orchestrated the downfall of a tyrannical rule that had lasted for almost 4000 years.

He has with prep defeated his father with three seperate actions. he layed out one that was a diliberate attack that he knew his father Brainiac would know was a ruse. He also had a second attack that was actually set up to allow him to be captured by his father and was truly another ruse but even Brainiac didn't suspect. he further planted a trap within his mind awaiting for the moment he was caught by his father. Knowing that his father would sense he was "hiding " something in his mind and his arrogance would not rest until he knew what it was he proceeded to break Vril's defense. The irony was that because he had to push so hard to actually do so once he was in to Vril's mind he had no defense for the mental trap that Vril had layed ( his real intended plan for victory). Brainiac was over whelmed by the sheer emotion that Vrill had contained in his trap and was broken.

Add to this that over the course of his history he has developed weapons and devices that have countered or simply shut down the powers of every operative he has working for him. he made a temporary immunity to lead for Valor/ Mon-el, he shut off Phase's intagibility, The Durlans Shape shifting ( which in turn caused him agony). When he was killed he had a spare back up clone body ready to transfer his consciousness to. With little more than a handful of operatives who don't trust him and are skeptical of his every move he has defeated galactic spanning forces like 4 times.

I'm not even saying he has better prep here, I'm just saying he wont be out done. He has defeated beings far more intelligent than him several times because of his use of psychology and playing their own character.

^ If I understand your reasoning correctly, I'm not sure how wise it is to take Pulsar Stargrave's original pre-Crisis feats and reverse-project that onto Vril Dox. Either way, Thor isn't King Thor. So trying to use Thor as a measurement stick for the Thorbuster armor is faulty. You should use King Thor, who dented in Cap's shield with a single blow, but did not do so against the Thorbuster armor and only defeated it after an extended brawl.

You made it sound like Starro used Silica to help him control those galaxies. Now you're making it sound like Starro himself had absolutely nothing to do with actually controlling those galaxies. That's the disconnect I am pointing out. If Starro really had nothing to do with it all, then ok.

Your list, while extensive, doesn't seem to measure up to Stark's feat of directly engaging and disrupting an Abstract force of the universe -- if that's what the list was intended to address in the first place. I mean... at least to me, your list doesn't seem to buttress your other notion that Vril Dox would easily control his opponents (especially tech-oriented ones) at the outset of a fight with the enhanced charisma you mentioned.

Sounds like Silica is Tony's worst nightmare.

Originally posted by ODG
^ If I understand your reasoning correctly, I'm not sure how wise it is to take Pulsar Stargrave's original pre-Crisis feats and reverse-project that onto Vril Dox. Either way, Thor isn't King Thor. So trying to use Thor as a measurement stick for the Thorbuster armor is faulty. You should use King Thor, who dented in Cap's shield with a single blow, but did not do so against the Thorbuster armor and only defeated it after an extended brawl.

You made it sound like Starro used Silica to help him control those galaxies. Now you're making it sound like Starro himself had absolutely nothing to do with actually controlling those galaxies. That's the disconnect I am pointing out. If Starro really had nothing to do with it all, then ok.

Your list, while extensive, doesn't seem to measure up to Stark's feat of directly engaging and disrupting an Abstract force of the universe -- if that's what the list was intended to address in the first place. I mean... at least to me, your list doesn't seem to buttress your other notion that Vril Dox would easily control his opponents (especially tech-oriented ones) at the outset of a fight with the enhanced charisma you mentioned.

As I understand it ( from what I've seen in several forums and scans to support) Tony's Thor buster armor didn't even stand up to normal Thor, how could it then take King Thor. That just doesn't make sense to me. I'm basing these assessments on the fact that normal Thor seriously damaged his so called Thor buster armor. That being the case it could not possibly be as durable as something that can and has withstood forces above that.

Also re the pre COIE feats of LoSH they are completely valid. LoSH retained tehe exact same continuity post COIE they even changed it so that TT created a pocket Universe so Superboy ( who no longer existed ) was still their driving influence. There were some very minor changed in the mid 90's ( post the first runs of LEGION/REBELS) and again in 2001. In infinite Crisis their continuity was put back to pre crisis exactly. Every single story featuring Vril Dox came from a period when LoSH continuity WAS pre COIE.

Starro used Silica's technopathy to ensure he had no resistance as his spors flooded through the universe in hyper speed. None of the war ships, weapons etc were functional to defend against his little stars. He controlled the people once he had possessed them but the feat of technopathically controlling all the devices across vast reaches of space was solely Silica after he gained possession.

Any teach based hero is going to have all their weaponry under the control of silica. That's a given. When Lyrl Dox as an infant found his fathers program burried deep within his fathers system he made a simple change to it so that he was the patron of the enhanced charisma and not his father. The result was that anyone within the reach of a piece of technology that could be reached in the grid was under his control. Anyone who could see a computer screen, hear a signal from a device sending the auditory subliminal messages. Tony has a lot of those things in hiss armor. Multiple points where a subliminal message can get in. Seriously I don't see this as a stretch at all. Plus it's not like it's even something Tony would be prepared for with Prep. Dox's inner circle kept the idea that he controlled whole populations with brain washing very bloody secret. Even if he was how do you prepare yourself for something that acts only on teh subconscious mind.

Dox has also faced Eclipso and Neron at their peaks of power. During Underworld unleashed Dox actually managed to trick a favor out of Neron while not giving him his soul. Instead he sold the souls of others he would control if he was given what he wanted and then simply never even tried to take control.

Dox has also faced Eclipso in "heart of Darkness", plus Ion, Lady Styx, Synarr and his masters the "Nameless, as well as the new god's (including Shazam), X'Hal and defeated them. All are god's/abstract beings. That's hardly a feat exclusive to any single character.

Originally posted by beatboks
As I understand it ( from what I've seen in several forums and scans to support) Tony's Thor buster armor didn't even stand up to normal Thor, how could it then take King Thor. That just doesn't make sense to me. I'm basing these assessments on the fact that normal Thor seriously damaged his so called Thor buster armor. That being the case it could not possibly be as durable as something that can and has withstood forces above that.

Also re the pre COIE feats of LoSH they are completely valid. LoSH retained tehe exact same continuity post COIE they even changed it so that TT created a pocket Universe so Superboy ( who no longer existed ) was still their driving influence. There were some very minor changed in the mid 90's ( post the first runs of LEGION/REBELS) and again in 2001. In infinite Crisis their continuity was put back to pre crisis exactly. Every single story featuring Vril Dox came from a period when LoSH continuity WAS pre COIE.

Starro used Silica's technopathy to ensure he had no resistance as his spors flooded through the universe in hyper speed. None of the war ships, weapons etc were functional to defend against his little stars. He controlled the people once he had possessed them but the feat of technopathically controlling all the devices across vast reaches of space was solely Silica after he gained possession.

Any teach based hero is going to have all their weaponry under the control of silica. That's a given. When Lyrl Dox as an infant found his fathers program burried deep within his fathers system he made a simple change to it so that he was the patron of the enhanced charisma and not his father. The result was that anyone within the reach of a piece of technology that could be reached in the grid was under his control. Anyone who could see a computer screen, hear a signal from a device sending the auditory subliminal messages. Tony has a lot of those things in hiss armor. Multiple points where a subliminal message can get in. Seriously I don't see this as a stretch at all. Plus it's not like it's even something Tony would be prepared for with Prep. Dox's inner circle kept the idea that he controlled whole populations with brain washing very bloody secret. Even if he was how do you prepare yourself for something that acts only on teh subconscious mind.

Dox has also faced Eclipso and Neron at their peaks of power. During Underworld unleashed Dox actually managed to trick a favor out of Neron while not giving him his soul. Instead he sold the souls of others he would control if he was given what he wanted and then simply never even tried to take control.

Dox has also faced Eclipso in "heart of Darkness", plus Ion, Lady Styx, Synarr and his masters the "Nameless, as well as the new god's (including Shazam), X'Hal and defeated them. All are god's/abstract beings. That's hardly a feat exclusive to any single character.

Who are the Nameless again?

Originally posted by Golgo13
Who are the Nameless again?

The Namesless was the name given to what was formerly the demiurge. The force that the Presence created to cause creation. It was this entity that cause the creation of multiple universes. He grew to think of God as corrupt and sought to oppose him and was than smite like Morningstar. Synar is basically an aspect of the nameless forced to assume mortal form but still possessing devine powers and immortality.

Originally posted by beatboks
As I understand it ( from what I've seen in several forums and scans to support) Tony's Thor buster armor didn't even stand up to normal Thor, how could it then take King Thor. That just doesn't make sense to me. I'm basing these assessments on the fact that normal Thor seriously damaged his so called Thor buster armor. That being the case it could not possibly be as durable as something that can and has withstood forces above that. Thor never fought the Thorbuster armor. King Thor fought it. The guy who dented Cap's shield with a single blow, but took two issues to defeat the Thorbuster armor. Originally posted by beatboks
Also re the pre COIE feats of LoSH they are completely valid. LoSH retained tehe exact same continuity post COIE they even changed it so that TT created a pocket Universe so Superboy ( who no longer existed ) was still their driving influence. There were some very minor changed in the mid 90's ( post the first runs of LEGION/REBELS) and again in 2001. In infinite Crisis their continuity was put back to pre crisis exactly. Every single story featuring Vril Dox came from a period when LoSH continuity WAS pre COIE. I'm not unread with all things DC. I know what Infinite Crisis supposedly did and about the random interviews Geoff Johns gave. But what happens on-panel is more important than what people say (or intend). I read the post-Infinite Crisis depiction of Superboy's original meeting with the original Legion of Super-Heroes and it's different. I also know that the original PC Supergirl was an important part of pre-Crisis Legion history and she was never retconned back in after Infinite Crisis. So your blanket statements saying that pre-Crisis Legion history was reinstated and simply transplanted onto post-Crisis timeline "exactly" is inaccurate on its face.

And I mean, that's all Legion stuff and not even about Pulsar Stargrave. Is he really supposed to be a future Braniac like he was revealed to be in pre-Crisis continuity? C'mon now, let's stop pretending there isn't a question about pre-Crisis continuity. Originally posted by beatboks
Starro used Silica's technopathy to ensure he had no resistance as his spors flooded through the universe in hyper speed. None of the war ships, weapons etc were functional to defend against his little stars. He controlled the people once he had possessed them but the feat of technopathically controlling all the devices across vast reaches of space was solely Silica after he gained possession.

Any teach based hero is going to have all their weaponry under the control of silica. That's a given. When Lyrl Dox as an infant found his fathers program burried deep within his fathers system he made a simple change to it so that he was the patron of the enhanced charisma and not his father. The result was that anyone within the reach of a piece of technology that could be reached in the grid was under his control. Anyone who could see a computer screen, hear a signal from a device sending the auditory subliminal messages. Tony has a lot of those things in hiss armor. Multiple points where a subliminal message can get in. Seriously I don't see this as a stretch at all. Plus it's not like it's even something Tony would be prepared for with Prep. Dox's inner circle kept the idea that he controlled whole populations with brain washing very bloody secret. Even if he was how do you prepare yourself for something that acts only on teh subconscious mind. I'll read about Silica and Starro for myself.

So show scans of opponents fighting Vril Dox and him roflstomping them from the outset of the fight with his enhanced charisma (especially those who were tech-based). I feel like I've made this request before. Originally posted by beatboks
Dox has also faced Eclipso and Neron at their peaks of power. During Underworld unleashed Dox actually managed to trick a favor out of Neron while not giving him his soul. Instead he sold the souls of others he would control if he was given what he wanted and then simply never even tried to take control.

Dox has also faced Eclipso in "heart of Darkness", plus Ion, Lady Styx, Synarr and his masters the "Nameless, as well as the new god's (including Shazam), X'Hal and defeated them. All are god's/abstract beings. That's hardly a feat exclusive to any single character. You list all those characters as if it's supposed to mean something. That you would be so bold to say Vril Dox defeated each of them is disappointing. Has Vril Dox directly engaged an Abstract force of the universe and disrupted it like Stark has? If not, then Vril hasn't matched every level of feat Tony has performed. The original point of discussion.

Originally posted by beatboks
The Namesless was the name given to what was formerly the demiurge. The force that the Presence created to cause creation. It was this entity that cause the creation of multiple universes. He grew to think of God as corrupt and sought to oppose him and was than smite like Morningstar. Synar is basically an aspect of the nameless forced to assume mortal form but still possessing devine powers and immortality.

Ah, thanks.

Originally posted by ODG
Thor never fought the Thorbuster armor. King Thor fought it. The guy who dented Cap's shield with a single blow, but took two issues to defeat the Thorbuster armor.

I'm not unread with all things DC. I know what Infinite Crisis supposedly did and about the random interviews Geoff Johns gave. But what happens on-panel is more important than what people say (or intend).

I read the post-Infinite Crisis depiction of Superboy's original meeting with the original Legion of Super-Heroes and it's different. I also know that the original PC Supergirl was an important part of pre-Crisis Legion history and she was never retconned back in after Infinite Crisis. So your blanket statements saying that pre-Crisis Legion history was reinstated and simply transplanted onto post-Crisis timeline "exactly" is inaccurate on its face.

And I mean, that's all Legion stuff and not even about Pulsar Stargrave. Is he really supposed to be a future Braniac like he was revealed to be in pre-Crisis continuity? C'mon now, let's stop pretending there isn't a question about pre-Crisis continuity. I'll read about Silica and Starro for myself.

So show scans of opponents fighting Vril Dox and him roflstomping them from the outset of the fight with his enhanced charisma (especially those who were tech-based). I feel like I've made this request before. You list all those characters as if it's supposed to mean something. That you would be so bold to say Vril Dox defeated each of them is disappointing. Has Vril Dox directly engaged an Abstract force of the universe and disrupted it like Stark has? If not, then Vril hasn't matched every level of feat Tony has performed. The original point of discussion.
Than I've been miss informed the way I understood it he was stomped by normal Thor and that is what I'm chasing this assessment on.

The overall continuity of LoSH carried through on panel post COIE vast amounts of those old trails have been referenced and shown as flash back. PS isn't Brainiac he originally alluded that but post coie it was changed to show that he was the actual computer grants given biography form. It was also shown later that when he linked with the coluan data core he got slightly over loaded by brainiacs memories ( presumably though not stated to explain him referring to himself as such in legion's history)
Super girl has actually made more appearances as a Legionare post crisis than pre so I m not sure what you mean here.
I had a. Quick look to find scans of Silica and Starr o. Seems my memory is way off. Starro never actually got Silica. He sent an operative to but they trailed and she self destructed . When she did her control over all Legion robots , ships etc across space was gone. She was created as a safe guard after Lyrl so easily took over Legion with Vril's enhanced charisma program to ensure it couln't happen again. When she did Starro was able to easily hack and control them when close. Vril created a 2nd silica who technopathically controlled everything in the Maltan system from a neighboring system and used it to put a force field around malta trapping. Starr o

Originally posted by beatboks
Than I've been miss informed the way I understood it he was stomped by normal Thor and that is what I'm chasing this assessment on.

The overall continuity of LoSH carried through on panel post COIE vast amounts of those old trails have been referenced and shown as flash back. PS isn't Brainiac he originally alluded that but post coie it was changed to show that he was the actual computer grants given biography form. It was also shown later that when he linked with the coluan data core he got slightly over loaded by brainiacs memories ( presumably though not stated to explain him referring to himself as such in legion's history)

Super girl has actually made more appearances as a Legionare post crisis than pre so I m not sure what you mean here. Re-assess then.

The continuity has not been carried through on-panel as exactly as you'd like it to be. These flashbacks you refer to have shown vast differences starting from the very beginning, i.e., Superboy's first encounter with the Legion. Compare Adventure Comics #247 with Action Comics #858 and see for yourself. That Pulsar Stargrave's origin is different only serves to punctuate my point.

Pre-Crisis Supergirl joined the original Legion. Before CoIE, she had dozens of appearances in their comics throughout the original Adventure Comics, Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes, and Legion of Super-Heroes vol.2. titles. I meant exactly what I stated. The original PC Supergirl was an important part of pre-Crisis Legion history and she was never retconned back in after Infinite Crisis. Accordingly, your assertion that Legion continuity carried over "exactly" is inaccurate on its face. Originally posted by beatboks
I had a. Quick look to find scans of Silica and Starr o. Seems my memory is way off. Starro never actually got Silica. He sent an operative to but they trailed and she self destructed . When she did her control over all Legion robots , ships etc across space was gone. She was created as a safe guard after Lyrl so easily took over Legion with Vril's enhanced charisma program to ensure it couln't happen again. When she did Starro was able to easily hack and control them when close. Vril created a 2nd silica who technopathically controlled everything in the Maltan system from a neighboring system and used it to put a force field around malta trapping. Starr o I read the relevant issues of Omega Men and R.E.B.E.L.S. for myself. Your descriptions weren't accurate (and that's putting it nicely). I am sufficiently underwhelmed by Silica, and for good reason. She frankly doesn't merit anymore discussion. Moving past that, you've still provided me with no examples of this "enhanced charisma" you described being put to practical use in a fight, much less an example of it being used to greater effect on a tech-oriented being. At this point, I don't feel the need to grant it any consideration.

Just a note for people: Not all Legion stuff was reinstated; only stuff that was actually referenced specifically can be used.

We made a mod ruling on this a while back, I thought.

Didn't Abi say that PC Legion was canon? According to LO3W?

Originally posted by Golgo13
Didn't Abi say

Your first mistake.

Honestly though, while some of the stuff from pre crisis was reinstated, there's no blanket restoration of every appearance they've ever had.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Your first mistake.

You're a cruel man, PR. A cruel man.

badawe

Originally posted by -Pr-
Your first mistake.

Honestly though, while some of the stuff from pre crisis was reinstated, there's no blanket restoration of every appearance they've ever had.
LO3W and Lightning saga made it explicitly clear that PC stories are canon for legion. That's not the same thing as selectively choosing which comic is canon for superman based on flashbacks. As for interaction of supergirl and legion, her role was filled by Andromeda post-crisis. Just because supergirl never became a member of original legion doesn't means those stories are non-canon just like the stories of JSA interacting with wonder woman aren't non-canon because hippolyta filled the role of wonder woman.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Your first mistake.



haermm

Originally posted by abhilegend
LO3W and Lightning saga made it explicitly clear that PC stories are canon for legion. That's not the same thing as selectively choosing which comic is canon for superman based on flashbacks. As for interaction of supergirl and legion, her role was filled by Andromeda post-crisis. Just because supergirl never became a member of original legion doesn't means those stories are non-canon just like the stories of JSA interacting with wonder woman aren't non-canon because hippolyta filled the role of wonder woman.

Is this because there were 3 Val's, 3 Brainiacs, etc...

facepalm

Originally posted by Golgo13
Is this because there were 3 Val's, 3 Brainiacs, etc...
The original legion was featured in comics till zero hour without any continuity problem thanks to pocket dimension superboy and andromeda replacing supergirl. After that Earth-247 legion was featured in legion comics till Titans/Legion: Universe Ablaze. Earth-prime legion is shown after that in legion comics untill IC. Lightning saga and Superman and Legion of Super-heroes firmly establish PC legion again as true legion and their stories canon to proper DCU. Its just that simple. To argue that Legion stories are not canon just because the original meeting of superboy is told differently or supergirl was never a member is frankly stupid since it has an in-universe explanation of why some things are different. Time-Trapper made countless attempt to erase superman from Legion's past and it caused some events to play out differently.

Originally posted by abhilegend
LO3W and Lightning saga made it explicitly clear that PC stories are canon for legion. That's not the same thing as selectively choosing which comic is canon for superman based on flashbacks. As for interaction of supergirl and legion, her role was filled by Andromeda post-crisis. Just because supergirl never became a member of original legion doesn't means those stories are non-canon just like the stories of JSA interacting with wonder woman aren't non-canon because hippolyta filled the role of wonder woman.

We mod ruled on this months ago.

Originally posted by -Pr-
We mod ruled on this months ago.
I know about that mod rule about superman. LOSH isn't superman though. They don't have any retcon or re-tellings to muddle their continuity. They just ceased to be shown in the comic in 1994 after decades of publishing and were again star of legion comic after lightning saga. Its like saying if a character like say creeper shows up after a decade of not showing up in his comic while another creeper was starring in his own comics, then the previous stories don't count for the original creeper.

I wasn't talking about Superman.

Whether or not LOSH is in continuity, I'll give Vril the edge in prep.

Why was this even brought up in the first place, out of curiosity?

It had something to do with Beatbok's and ODG debating about Vril surviving Pulsar's attacks with his force fields. I thik Beat was using PC feats or something.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I wasn't talking about Superman.
What was it about then?

The Legion, like I said in my original post:

Originally posted by -Pr-
Just a note for people: Not all Legion stuff was reinstated; only stuff that was actually referenced specifically can be used.

We made a mod ruling on this a while back, I thought.

Ok then. Although I can prove all the major storylines happened post-crisis for legion.

I know you can. I have read Legion myself, you know.

This decision wasn't made out of ignorance.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I know you can. I have read Legion myself, you know.

This decision wasn't made out of ignorance.
Oh I know you've read legion. That's my favorite team you're talking about though. BTW who are your favorite legionnair?

I was always partial to Cosmic Boy, Triplicate Girl (for obvious reasons) and Colossal Boy.

Mine are Wildfire, Mon-El and Brainy.

I liked brainiac in that legion show. the animated one.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I liked brainiac in that legion show. the animated one.
I never watched it. How good was it?

It was all right. I wouldn't put it up there with YJ, but I enjoyed it more than the Teen Titans shows.

Originally posted by ODG
Re-assess then.

The continuity has not been carried through on-panel as exactly as you'd like it to be. These flashbacks you refer to have shown vast differences starting from the very beginning, i.e., Superboy's first encounter with the Legion. Compare Adventure Comics #247 with Action Comics #858 and see for yourself. That Pulsar Stargrave's origin is different only serves to punctuate my point.

Pre-Crisis Supergirl joined the original Legion. Before CoIE, she had dozens of appearances in their comics throughout the original Adventure Comics, Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes, and Legion of Super-Heroes vol.2. titles. I meant exactly what I stated. The original PC Supergirl was an important part of pre-Crisis Legion history and she was never retconned back in after Infinite Crisis. Accordingly, your assertion that Legion continuity carried over "exactly" is inaccurate on its face.

I read the relevant issues of Omega Men and R.E.B.E.L.S. for myself. Your descriptions weren't accurate (and that's putting it nicely). I am sufficiently underwhelmed by Silica, and for good reason. She frankly doesn't merit anymore discussion.

Moving past that, you've still provided me with no examples of this "enhanced charisma" you described being put to practical use in a fight, much less an example of it being used to greater effect on a tech-oriented being. At this point, I don't feel the need to grant it any consideration.

1. Based on it being King Thor that he faced than obviously Dox's shields aren't as durable as Thor buster. As i said I was solely basing this on what I have been told in various forums and I was led to believe that normal Thor trashed the armor pretty well ( personally haven't read IM since the early 80's)

2. Of course it's note exactly, I only meant that the majority of the major arks have been referenced in various titles ( admittedly not all LoSH titles some were referenced in Valor, some in the brief Cosmic Boy sires etc. Like the story where Mordru and Glorith absorbed Infinity man was a part of the late issues of valor in the mid 90's, the time barrier thing with TT was in Cosmic boy mini, the JLA/JSA/ LoSH cross over with Mordru was in JSA etc). It's really inconsequential in relation to Pulsar Stargrave as he has as many post COIE feats of the same magnitude as his pre. For example he has easily taken down Valor, reduced Lobo to bone and mangled flesh ( which of course he got better from but even Superman's most powerful heat vision and DS Omega beams haven't), Knocked out Lady Quark with a blast, devastated Emerald Eye, taken down Captain Comet.

3. OK so if you've read the issues please tell me the inaccuracies i gave. In issue 1 as teh omega men approach legion space the Legion robots attack and are attacking and killing many civilians under Silica's control. In issue 3 it clearly states that Silica controls all of Legions robot forces with her technopathy. Forces that it states are spread across 83 inhabited worlds. In issue 5 ( somewhere in the first dozen pages) when Starro's minion was offering Dox the deal she clearly said that SIlica was the key, that possessing her gave the minion Dox's robot army and through that 80 odd worlds in the blink of an eye. How Starro wanted to take advantage of the mind that created that. His personal field has withstood a few dozen Thermonuclear warheads at point blank, blasts from PS, and matter manipulaotrs and such.

All I've stated all along is that Silica gives Dox Technopathy that spreads across space sectors ( I may have mentioned "galaxies" once because there was a reference once that Legion policed two and half galaxies). It was you reading between the lines asking about Starro and other things that I wasn't quite understanding why. Now it may just be that I'm not aware of it but if Tony has a technopathic feat greater than commanding technology on 83 separate worlds and would therefore be able to combat technopathy on that level when it's entire focus is only his tech, please present it. You may be unimpressed but i don't see an answer for that level of technopathy from someone who ( to the best of my knowledge) has only exhibited planet level technopathy maybe a little above.

4. I haven't provided it because I'm pretty sure I'd already stated before you asked that Dox has only used it twice on panel and it's been referenced a third time that he denied. I also stated somewhere back that when he went to use it again he was talked out of it by his closest friend the Durlan ( the one who would eventually be the time displaced R J Brande who funds LoSH). Both those times were NOT in battle but to quite a potential riot population and to motivate another to survive. The times it has been used for/in combat it was used by his father and son. Again I already stated this. When Brainiac first returned to Colu and tried to conquer it he found Dox's enhanced charisma program. he made him it's beneficiary instead and as the pilots of Colu's defense force attacked him and looked at their consoles they became his puppets. The second time was when his son Lyrl used it to take LEGION out from under him. When he first tried to get support from his client worlds and some aided they were taken over by Lyrl as they attacked also. I was pretty open in saying it isn't something he's used that way. Since however he has no real moral compass and no one here to talk him out of it I really don't see it as that much of a stretch to put it into play.

Dox has defeated superior intellects SO many times mostly due to his superior use of psychology. He has defeated Pulsar Stargrave about 5 times. PS is basically the combined knowledge of a culture over 5000 years. he has defeated his father Brainiac twice ( a 12th level intellect), plus his son Lyrl once. he has defeated Starro hwo had the combined mental processing power of 1000's of civilizations thanks to his spores. He has defeated galactic Empires ( and in fact the moment he wasn't in control of Legion any more when Starro took over those empires saw the chance to spread their borders once again). he has out maneuvered Darksied, the Guardians, and many others.

You also asked once about Dox personally engaging an abstract level being. Dox rarely personally engages anything. he usually tricks or manipulates someone else to do his fighting for him or tricks the adversary into just defeating themselves. He only actively engages someone when he can see gaining a benefit from it. Like when he engaged Lobo in a H2H battle so that once he beat him he had the complete adulation and devotion of every one of his troops and it strengthened their resolve for the coming mission. Very little of what Dox does is personal battle. He's much more likely to alter some of his Legion bots to be up to taking a fight to IM while he attacks in other ways.

Originally posted by beatboks
1. Based on it being King Thor that he faced than obviously Dox's shields aren't as durable as Thor buster. As i said I was solely basing this on what I have been told in various forums and I was led to believe that normal Thor trashed the armor pretty well ( personally haven't read IM since the early 80's) Glad we agree. Originally posted by beatboks
2. Of course it's note exactly, I only meant that the majority of the major arks have been referenced in various titles ( admittedly not all LoSH titles some were referenced in Valor, some in the brief Cosmic Boy sires etc. Like the story where Mordru and Glorith absorbed Infinity man was a part of the late issues of valor in the mid 90's, the time barrier thing with TT was in Cosmic boy mini, the JLA/JSA/ LoSH cross over with Mordru was in JSA etc). It's really inconsequential in relation to Pulsar Stargrave as he has as many post COIE feats of the same magnitude as his pre. For example he has easily taken down Valor, reduced Lobo to bone and mangled flesh ( which of course he got better from but even Superman's most powerful heat vision and DS Omega beams haven't), Knocked out Lady Quark with a blast, devastated Emerald Eye, taken down Captain Comet. You said, "exactly," not me. Glad we now agree it wasn't that at all. And your recitation of certain facts concerning Valor, Mordru and Glorith is both pointless and baffling. Mordru and Glorith never absorbed Infinite Man in pre-Crisis history. That was a strictly post-Crisis affair that in no way reinforces a tie to previous pre-Crisis tales. And that whole storyline actually occurred concurrently with the mid-90's Valor title, so how can it be "later" referenced in them? You've got your facts seriously mixed up here or you're just not being clear with what you write. And I'm beginning to seriously question whether that's intentional on your part. Like I said, I am not un-read in all things DC. I've got no issue with references to Pulsar Stargrave's current feats, just attempts to inelegantly shoehorn in questionable pre-Crisis history. Originally posted by beatboks
3. OK so if you've read the issues please tell me the inaccuracies i gave. In issue 1 as teh omega men approach legion space the Legion robots attack and are attacking and killing many civilians under Silica's control. In issue 3 it clearly states that Silica controls all of Legions robot forces with her technopathy. Forces that it states are spread across 83 inhabited worlds. In issue 5 ( somewhere in the first dozen pages) when Starro's minion was offering Dox the deal she clearly said that SIlica was the key, that possessing her gave the minion Dox's robot army and through that 80 odd worlds in the blink of an eye. How Starro wanted to take advantage of the mind that created that. His personal field has withstood a few dozen Thermonuclear warheads at point blank, blasts from PS, and matter manipulaotrs and such. Silica only ever controlled Vril Dox's 10,000,000 police robots. Which were already placed on those 83 worlds who paid Vril Dox for them and who also completely relied on them for protection. And Silica herself was the AI interface for Vril Dox's control over them (and all his technology) in the first place. So Silica never was "technopathically controlling whole quadrants of space / entire galaxies at the same time." Silica never did control those robots along with "tecnopathically controlling any defense of worlds he sent his spors to."

Silica was essentially Tony's J.A.R.V.I.S. If Mandarin took over the J.A.R.V.I.S. AI with a computer virus and turned hundreds of Iron Man armors against the U.S. in an ambush, it would be a complete misrepresentation to suggest that "J.A.R.VI.S. technopathically controlled entire continents and their defense systems." And that's pretty much exactly what you did for pages in this thread. Originally posted by beatboks
All I've stated all along is that Silica gives Dox Technopathy that spreads across space sectors ( I may have mentioned "galaxies" once because there was a reference once that Legion policed two and half galaxies). It was you reading between the lines asking about Starro and other things that I wasn't quite understanding why. Now it may just be that I'm not aware of it but if Tony has a technopathic feat greater than commanding technology on 83 separate worlds and would therefore be able to combat technopathy on that level when it's entire focus is only his tech, please present it. You may be unimpressed but i don't see an answer for that level of technopathy from someone who ( to the best of my knowledge) has only exhibited planet level technopathy maybe a little above. Your waffling with Starro in your synopses (ultimately inconsequential) made me suspect; that is all. And it was apparently for good reason. I am only unimpressed by the blatant misrepresentations you've heaped onto the thread about Silica. She merits no consideration whatsoever beyond noting that with a single starfish, she single-handedly ended up nearly unraveling everything Vril Dox accomplished. Which is why Vril destroyed her despite having freed her from Starro's influence. Originally posted by beatboks
4. I haven't provided it because I'm pretty sure I'd already stated before you asked that Dox has only used it twice on panel and it's been referenced a third time that he denied. I also stated somewhere back that when he went to use it again he was talked out of it by his closest friend the Durlan ( the one who would eventually be the time displaced R J Brande who funds LoSH). Both those times were NOT in battle but to quite a potential riot population and to motivate another to survive. The times it has been used for/in combat it was used by his father and son. Again I already stated this. When Brainiac first returned to Colu and tried to conquer it he found Dox's enhanced charisma program. he made him it's beneficiary instead and as the pilots of Colu's defense force attacked him and looked at their consoles they became his puppets. The second time was when his son Lyrl used it to take LEGION out from under him. When he first tried to get support from his client worlds and some aided they were taken over by Lyrl as they attacked also. I was pretty open in saying it isn't something he's used that way. Since however he has no real moral compass and no one here to talk him out of it I really don't see it as that much of a stretch to put it into play. So Vril Dox never roflstomped competent opponents from the outset of the fight with his enhanced charisma (especially those who were tech-based). Ever. Good to know. Originally posted by beatboks
Dox has defeated superior intellects SO many times mostly due to his superior use of psychology. He has defeated Pulsar Stargrave about 5 times. PS is basically the combined knowledge of a culture over 5000 years. he has defeated his father Brainiac twice ( a 12th level intellect), plus his son Lyrl once. he has defeated Starro hwo had the combined mental processing power of 1000's of civilizations thanks to his spores. He has defeated galactic Empires ( and in fact the moment he wasn't in control of Legion any more when Starro took over those empires saw the chance to spread their borders once again). he has out maneuvered Darksied, the Guardians, and many others.

You also asked once about Dox personally engaging an abstract level being. Dox rarely personally engages anything. he usually tricks or manipulates someone else to do his fighting for him or tricks the adversary into just defeating themselves. He only actively engages someone when he can see gaining a benefit from it. Like when he engaged Lobo in a H2H battle so that once he beat him he had the complete adulation and devotion of every one of his troops and it strengthened their resolve for the coming mission. Very little of what Dox does is personal battle. He's much more likely to alter some of his Legion bots to be up to taking a fight to IM while he attacks in other ways. I asked whether Vril Dox ever managed to directly engage an Abstract force because you declared that he matched all the best feats Tony has ever had. On page 1. Obviously, Vril hasn't or you would have said so by now. I'll thank you to not move the goalposts beyond that.

Does Vril have to best a cosmic force to beat Tony?

^ Tony didn't even best a cosmic force. Why would Vril have to?

The argument of Tony engaging a cosmic force.

Originally posted by Golgo13
The argument of Tony engaging a cosmic force. Re-read the discussion.

lol

Originally posted by ODG
Re-read the discussion.

Too lazy.

After reading the thread for an hour it seems that Vril is out of Stark's weight class.

Also the feat of Stark blowing up the Phoenix force is out of context. Both Stark and Pym made the gun, and the Phoenix Force is the cosmic jobber of Marvel, even Xorn was able to smash it into a million pieces with an EMP so it's not that impressive.

The only thing that Vril brings to the table here is his forcefield. I don't really understand why Silica's even in the discussion to begin with - the whole REBELS series was pretty clearly treating her as a separate being, with her own body and mind. Maybe a creation and tool of Dox's, but her own entity and not exactly 'standard equipment'.

Vril and the Brainiac's are known for their force fields, but Vril has come up with other inventions that are impressive and on top of that being a prep master in his own right.

Originally posted by Golgo13
but Vril has come up with other inventions that are impressive and on top of that being a prep master in his own right. Yes, and so has Tony, and it looks like that's about as far as this discussion gets in 6 pages.

Originally posted by Existere
Yes, and so has Tony, and it looks like that's about as far as this discussion gets in 6 pages.

I'd think Vril has access to better tech. And who do you see being a better manipulator/tactician?

I think Vril is a better manipulator, and I think Tony has the more impressive feats of tactical foresight and complexity, but Vril wrestling control of the galaxy and uniting the REBELS under the nose of Starro is a feat on a greater scale of tactical warfare than anything I can think of Stark doing.

Through sheer amount of showings though, if they get access to all their existing tech, Stark should win. Teleportation could get around and through Dox's forcefields, and Tony's used teleportation tech in his armor before. Stark also invented those missiles that created miniature black holes. Combining those two is one of dozens of ways that Stark's tech could be combined to overcome the only things we've seen Dox create.

Maybe Vril has better resources on hand to prep with, because he's surrounded by 10 spacefaring, warrior planets, but from there it's all just absent guesswork.

Originally posted by Existere
I think Vril is a better manipulator, and I think Tony has the more impressive feats of tactical foresight and complexity, but Vril wrestling control of the galaxy and uniting the REBELS under the nose of Starro is a feat on a greater scale of tactical warfare than anything I can think of Stark doing.

Through sheer amount of showings though, if they get access to all their existing tech, Stark should win. Teleportation could get around and through Dox's forcefields, and Tony's used teleportation tech in his armor before. Stark also invented those missiles that created miniature black holes. Combining those two is one of dozens of ways that Stark's tech could be combined to overcome the only things we've seen Dox create.

Maybe Vril has better resources on hand to prep with, because he's surrounded by 10 spacefaring, warrior planets, but from there it's all just absent guesswork.

Dox has created a few things over time tech wise, but his better scientific feats are definitely in the biological fields of science.

Tech created
His force field
His personal AI Silica
Energy damps era that overloaded Pulsar star grave
The implant he used to to control the psionic brute ( who's name escapes me)
His tachyon cage that held Wave rider unable to shift through time.
And the various devices he created to null the powers of his operatives like phase should they turn on him.
His subliminal programming program ( charisma enhancement program) that was used to make all Colu hero worship him and Lyrl used to turn his whole operation against him.

When you compare that to his bio work like neutering lobo's regeneration, enhancing his own body to be able to match lobo, and other genetic manipulations he's done it pales by comparison.

Most of which won't help unless there is prep ( and I can't remember if there was)

On the Lobo front, that was the result of turning the dial of the regen bath he was in to 11, basically.

Sort of kind of PIS, since if those regenerations could do that, you'd think he'd take regular baths in them, instead of only when he's grievously injured.

Originally posted by cdtm
On the Lobo front, that was the result of turning the dial of the regen bath he was in to 11, basically.

Sort of kind of PIS, since if those regenerations could do that, you'd think he'd take regular baths in them, instead of only when he's grievously injured.

It wasn't a "regeneration bath". Dox was being cloned by the machine he'd made to do so. His consciousness was transferred from his former dead body ( killed by stealth in her mating process that spawned his son Lyrl) and he had come to a week or so earlier and tuned up the settings on the machine that was sustaining the generation ( not regeneration ) process of his newly cloned body. It was only a temporary augmentation, but he could have just as easily had the machine set to produce a body like the one of Pulsar star grave ( that was permanently those stats). I doubt very much it's a process he could go through regularly. Though I'll be honest in a tourney on cv where I had him in my team recently with Ultra Humanite and Mr Terrific I argued the exact opposite. Of course Ultra actually has feats of making genetic alterations to make permanent upgrades to physicals. I mean those white ape bodies he genetically altered and grew to make him a 100++ tonner and all.

When you put it that way, it doesn't sound as bad.

Dox still had no business beating down Lobo though, given what he's shrugged off even back in those early days. (And didn't they make a tongue in cheek excuse after the fact about Lobo not being as motivated because heavy metal music he usually has pipped directly into his brain was out of commission, or something?)

Originally posted by Existere
I think Vril is a better manipulator, and I think Tony has the more impressive feats of tactical foresight and complexity, but Vril wrestling control of the galaxy and uniting the REBELS under the nose of Starro is a feat on a greater scale of tactical warfare than anything I can think of Stark doing.

Through sheer amount of showings though, if they get access to all their existing tech, Stark should win. Teleportation could get around and through Dox's forcefields, and Tony's used teleportation tech in his armor before. Stark also invented those missiles that created miniature black holes. Combining those two is one of dozens of ways that Stark's tech could be combined to overcome the only things we've seen Dox create.

Maybe Vril has better resources on hand to prep with, because he's surrounded by 10 spacefaring, warrior planets, but from there it's all just absent guesswork. What issue did Stark make those mini black hole missiles? I gotta read that.

Originally posted by Existere
I think Vril is a better manipulator

On the manipulation front I used Vril in a scenario thread here http://thecomicsledger.*********.com/thread/4043?page=2 to manipulate a lot of graveyard hitters to serve him in a way I believe to be in character for him.

Your right though in tech stark has a lot more and a lot more feats. The weirdest hing out where Dox is concerned is that the scientific field which is supposed to be his field of expertise as stated by him ( i.e. Botony ) is the only one we have never seen a feat in

Originally posted by Existere
Teleportation could get around and through Dox's forcefields

Not sure about that. Dox's force fields boxed in Starro's fleet, keeping him from exiting even in warp space..

And they did have tp tech, pretty sure..

Originally posted by cdtm
Not sure about that. Dox's force fields boxed in Starro's fleet, keeping him from exiting even in warp space..

And they did have tp tech, pretty sure..

your right, but i dont think the shield he used to do that is the same as his personal shield. I doubt very much the shield he has around himself as personal protection could do that. I'm a Vril dox fanboy and all but it's never been shown to be that powerful. Stand up to rigors of space, close explosions and Black Lanerns (though that wasnt for long and a yellow ring made itself available to him mid battle because of his capacity to inspire fear more than almost anyone in the sector)

Originally posted by beatboks
your right, but i dont think the shield he used to do that is the same as his personal shield. I doubt very much the shield he has around himself as personal protection could do that. I'm a Vril dox fanboy and all but it's never been shown to be that powerful. Stand up to rigors of space, close explosions and Black Lanerns (though that wasnt for long and a yellow ring made itself available to him mid battle because of his capacity to inspire fear more than almost anyone in the sector) Pretty sure he states in REBELS that it's the same forcefield.

I didn't bother going through the listed tech feats of Dox one by one, because I don't think most of them are relevant. Notably, the implant that he used to control Tribulus was one he stole from the robot mercenary, nothing of his own creation. He had Supergirl put it into his brain using X-ray vision, again, nothing of his own doing.

Teleportation was shown to be able to get through the forcefield. Starro's fleet attempted to recruit those underwater dudes (the Dishpan or something like that) because their warp weavers could get around Dox's forcefield. Adam Strange's zeta radiation also worked.

Lyrl Dox seemed more impressive in the tech field. Guy built Pulsar Stargrave and even learned martial arts in a few moments.

DOX WINS

Originally posted by Golgo13
Lyrl Dox seemed more impressive in the tech field. Guy built Pulsar Stargrave and even learned martial arts in a few moments.
O_o ??!! Pulsar Stargrave was "built" long before Vril's son Lyrl was even conceived . The Computer tyrants transferred their AI into the artificial body that had been created by the work of Vril and his father Brainiac at the end of the first ark of L.E.G.I.O.N.

Though both Lyrl and Brainiac are above Vril in most fields ( both being 12 level intellects to Vril's 10 level). He beats them only because he plays better mind games and is a better manipulator

Originally posted by Golgo13
Vril and the Brainiac's are known for their force fields, but Vril has come up with other inventions that are impressive and on top of that being a prep master in his own right.

Who do you think wins and how many times out of 10?

Iirc, Robinson restored Supergirl's role in classic Legion continuity during the New Krypton storyline.

Originally posted by carver9
Who do you think wins and how many times out of 10?

Vril 6/10.

Given the revelations since this thread's inception --namely that Tony's intellect is on par with, and in some cases superior to, Reed's... According to Reed himself-- I'd have to side with Tony here.

Originally posted by Galan007
Given the revelations since this thread's inception --namely that Tony's intellect is on par with, and in some cases superior to, Reed's... According to Reed himself-- I'd have to side with Tony here.

Reed level, Dox ain't.
At least not Dox II

Originally posted by psycho gundam
is that why you made the thread?

Do you even have to ask?

Originally posted by Zack M
Vril and the Brainiac's are known for their force fields, but Vril has come up with other inventions that are impressive and on top of that being a prep master in his own right.

That's great, Stark thoroughly kicks his ass.

Originally posted by beatboks
Reed level, Dox ain't.
At least not Dox II

B5 would be, imo.

Originally posted by ZebusKing
After reading the thread for an hour it seems that Vril is out of Stark's weight class.

Also the feat of Stark blowing up the Phoenix force is out of context. Both Stark and Pym made the gun, and the Phoenix Force is the cosmic jobber of Marvel, even Xorn was able to smash it into a million pieces with an EMP so it's not that impressive.

LOL, based on what? Stop trying to detract from the PF FEAT because that's exactly what it was. Phoenix was portrayed as ultra uber in that series.

Originally posted by Galan007
Given the revelations since this thread's inception --namely that Tony's intellect is on par with, and in some cases superior to, Reed's... According to Reed himself-- I'd have to side with Tony here.

So, Stark>Reed now?

Here Reed states that he is only 'fractionally' smarter than Tony where single tasks are concerned, but goes on to say that Tony is the smartest there is when multiple tasks need addressed at the same time:
http://i.imgur.com/JHEvi0m.jpg
"Mister Stark, on the other hand, is this world's greatest multitasker..."

__________________________________


This is likely why Tony was able to school Reed at multiple games of chess simultaneously:
http://i.imgur.com/ipe4bRQ.jpg

__________________________________


Reed later says that Tony is the best builder there is. Period.:
http://i.imgur.com/YcYhPJh.jpg
"There's no one --absolutely NO ONE-- who can do the things he does. If we're talking about building, well, then we should be taking our best builder."

__________________________________


In fact, Tony hypothesized that the only reason Reed is fractionally smarter than himself is because Reed's powers allow him to make his brain(and intellect) physically larger as it suits him:
http://i.imgur.com/nuMc50V.jpg

^^ so, do you think it will still be competitive? Vril is super crafty, who outsmarted his son, Lyrl, who is smarter than him, iirc.

He could make a fight out of it, sure... But where feats/accolades are concerned, Tony has the clear advantage.