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If Earth had to choose a official diplomat for life,and he must be top notch at peace making and arguing for diplomacy. Who would it be between Captain America or Professor X.

A major symbol? or a bald wise man? Which is better?

Rogers.

Xavier is actually kind of an ass.

You serious?

Xavier all the way.

Rogers.

I would never listen to a dirty ass bald mutant, prone to high pitched freak outs.

Xavier.

I pick black lightning

Well this interesting...first Rogers,than Xavier,Than Roger,and again Xavier...we need a tie breaker! And no Black Lighting can go to hell

Squirrel Girl or Batman

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Rogers.

Xavier is actually kind of an ass.

Steve can be just as much if not more of an ass. And is kinda racist on top of that.

Originally posted by KingD19
Steve can be just as much if not more of an ass. And is kinda racist on top of that.

How so?

I can't imagine non American allied nations listening to Captain America.

Why not?

Regardless of his nationality, he's earned the trust and admiration of people the world over.

I can't imagine the PDF shaking hands with him in Beijing...

Just my opinion

Fair enough, but really, Cap's inspirational charisma and respect he commands is practically a super power in of itself.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Why not?

Regardless of his nationality, he's earned the trust and admiration of people the world over.

He's just some (unt when you think about it.

He's running around with some joke of a symbol on his chest wailing on bank-robbers and waving the flag for some imperialist military. I'd rather not have some sanctimonious prick represent me, at least not when Xavier's already proven himself an extremely capable diplomat to the Skrull and Shi'ar

While this point might have been raised before, I'd like to say that Cap being highly racist and sexist(given the time-period that he's from) is much more logical than the unrealistic goody-two-shoes persona that Marvel has engineered.

Anyways, if we are to go according to the "feats" of diplomacy with aliens that these characters have, Prof X is definitely proven in his interactions with the Shiar, the Skrull and other alien races the X-teams have encountered. What are caps feats in this area(if he even has any)?

Originally posted by curryman
He's just some (unt when you think about it.

He's running around with some joke of a symbol on his chest wailing on bank-robbers and waving the flag for some imperialist military. I'd rather not have some sanctimonious prick represent me, at least not when Xavier's already proven himself an extremely capable diplomat to the Skrull and Shi'ar

Not sure if serious...?

Cap's inspired everyone from humans of various races, ethnicities, religions, etc, to mutants, aliens, robots, gods, and every thing in between. He's a solider, sure, but one who's pointedly stood up to his own government numerous times regardless of who was in charge. He's beyond petty political parties and while American, tries to do good for the world over.

He's the kind of high profile figure that many politicians wish they could be or sell themselves as without even trying.

Originally posted by curryman
He's just some (unt when you think about it.

He's running around with some joke of a symbol on his chest wailing on bank-robbers and waving the flag for some imperialist military. I'd rather not have some sanctimonious prick represent me, at least not when Xavier's already proven himself an extremely capable diplomat to the Skrull and Shi'ar

You disgust me.

Die.

I think Steve Rogers could do well, but "Captain America" is a tough sell

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Not sure if serious...?

Cap's inspired everyone from humans of various races, ethnicities, religions, etc, to mutants, aliens, robots, gods, and every thing in between. He's a solider, sure, but one who's pointedly stood up to his own government numerous times regardless of who was in charge. He's beyond petty political parties and while American, tries to do good for the world over.

He's the kind of high profile figure that many politicians wish they could be or sell themselves as without even trying.

I'm just busting your balls, Cap's got some good stuff on his record

However, he's not being sent there as a motivational speaker. He's being sent as a diplomat to best represent Earth. There's a couple of advantages that I feel Xavier has over him;

- Superior experience (Shi'ar/Skrull)
- He's more intelligent
- He started a dream of coexistence while Cap was still on ice.

Originally posted by curryman
I'm just busting your balls, Cap's got some good stuff on his record

However, he's not being sent there as a motivational speaker. He's being sent as a diplomat to best represent Earth. There's a couple of advantages that I feel Xavier has over him;

- Superior experience (Shi'ar/Skrull)
- He's more intelligent
- He started a dream of coexistence while Cap was still on ice.

Ah. uhuh

Cap has led the Avengers in situations where he's dealt with about just as many alien species as the X-Men have. Plus his reputation on Earth (and beyond) is pretty top tier. The fact that he's a man who has waged war, in my opinion, actually helps him out as an advocate for peace; he knows what war does to people and views it as a last possible resort. A soldier who's battled pretty much his entire life to save innocents would have a strong value on peace and justice.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Ah. uhuh

Cap has led the Avengers in situations where he's dealt with about just as many alien species as the X-Men have. Plus his reputation on Earth (and beyond) is pretty top tier. The fact that he's a man who has waged war, in my opinion, actually helps him out as an advocate for peace; he knows what war does to people and views it as a last possible resort. A soldier who's battled pretty much his entire life to save innocents would have a strong value on peace and justice.

He's a murderer.

He's battled for peace and justice while killing other soldiers. So much for the peace right?

Originally posted by curryman
He's a murderer.

He's battled for peace and justice while killing other soldiers. So much for the peace right?

Because he's had to.

Cap is optimistic, but also grounded in the harsh reality of how the world (and universe) works. Being a soldier and having fought to prevent the loss of life for innocents doesn't make him any less qualified to preach for and advocate peace and justice.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Because he's had to.

Cap is optimistic, but also grounded in the harsh reality of how the world (and universe) works. Being a soldier and having fought to prevent the loss of life for innocents doesn't make him any less qualified to preach for and advocate peace and justice.

Why did he have to?

No one forced him to go into war.

And the America he worshiped when he became Captain America? lmfao.

Originally posted by TheHulk
And no Black Lighting can go to hell
Really? really? Your so racist! Just because of the color of his skin You think you can hate on that fictional man? Shame him? Keep him out of your little contest?! Do ya punk?! Well sorry we can't all be big and green... You Damn gamma supremacists make me sick!

Your so racist I bet you would wanna be cap.(if he was green and full of gamma sauce)...actually I'd want to be that cap.

Originally posted by curryman
Why did he have to?

No one forced him to go into war.

And the America he worshiped when he became Captain America? lmfao.

He's killed to save the lives of innocents. He takes no pleasure in it.

Of course not. But he saw what was going on across the world, namely people being butchered, and felt that he had to do something.

Cap doesn't believe and has never believed America nor its political leaders are anything close to perfect. It's a fundamental aspect of his character. Cap will always speak up and out against his government when it does some shady shit.

Cap's racist and a hypocrite. Mainly against mutants.

For example. THe entire AVX fiasco was pretty much caused by Captain America's decision to take Hope, and his insistence that despite them having no experience with the Phoenix, they could do better than the people who understand it as much as it can be understood, and Scott's daughter(Rachel) who was the avatar for the Phoenix for years. And they only did it because the world was supposedly threatened, but all the times mutants have had problems, Avengers haven't even lifted a finger.

He even goes so far as to bring pretty much the entire Avengers roster with him in a Hellicarrier, because he's not there to talk, he's there to take her.

When Iron Man fractures the Phoenix and it jumps into the Phoenix 5 and they start doing nothing but making the world a better place, Cap brings down the hammer and decides they're menaces. Doesn't even throw a, "You screwed up" Iron Man's way, despite the whole thing being his fault. So they attack them, and when the Phoenix 5 fight back, they're the bad guys. He's even blaming them for all the bad stuff, despite knowing none of them were true Phoenix hosts and couldn't control themselves eventually.

A few issues in, Mr. Fantastic calls Cap and Iron Man out on the whole issue, saying they felt threatened because the mutants with the Phoenix were making the world a place where it didn't need the Avengers.

There's also the fact that he's ready to throw the book at pretty much every mutant ever whose not on the Avenger's payroll, but Wanda causes the deaths of millions because of "No More Mutants", and it was just an accident.

Cap's not as golden as people seem to think.

Neither is Xavier, but at least Charles has admitted to his faults.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
He's killed to save the lives of innocents. He takes no pleasure in it.

Of course not. But he saw what was going on across the world, namely people being butchered, and felt that he had to do something.

Cap doesn't believe and has never believed America nor its political leaders are anything close to perfect. It's a fundamental aspect of his character. Cap will always speak up and out against his government when it does some shady shit.

Shady shit?

What was World War II?

The good guys vs the bad guys?

Originally posted by KingD19
Cap's racist and a hypocrite. Mainly against mutants.

For example. THe entire AVX fiasco was pretty much caused by Captain America's decision to take Hope, and his insistence that despite them having no experience with the Phoenix, they could do better than the people who understand it as much as it can be understood, and Scott's daughter(Rachel) who was the avatar for the Phoenix for years. And they only did it because the world was supposedly threatened, but all the times mutants have had problems, Avengers haven't even lifted a finger.

He even goes so far as to bring pretty much the entire Avengers roster with him in a Hellicarrier, because he's not there to talk, he's there to take her.

When Iron Man fractures the Phoenix and it jumps into the Phoenix 5 and they start doing nothing but making the world a better place, Cap brings down the hammer and decides they're menaces. Doesn't even throw a, "You screwed up" Iron Man's way, despite the whole thing being his fault. So they attack them, and when the Phoenix 5 fight back, they're the bad guys.

A few issues in, Mr. Fantastic calls Cap and Iron Man out on the whole issue, saying they felt threatened because the mutants with the Phoenix were making the world a place where it didn't need the Avengers.

There's also the fact that he's ready to throw the book at pretty much every mutant ever whose not on the Avenger's payroll, but Wanda causes the deaths of millions because of "No More Mutants", and it was just an accident.

Cap's not as golden as people seem to think.

Neither is Xavier, but at least Charles has admitted to his faults.

AvX? I hope that's not the entire basis of your argument, because AvX trashed the characters of several characters depending on whether or not the issue in question was a "Pro-X-Men" one or a "Pro-Avengers" one. I could go into great detail why and how AvX was a mess, but that will derail the issue at hand.

And Cap's supported Wanda and Pietro for years now. He took in two former mutant terrorists and personally vouched for them when society was all up in arms for it.

And while Captain America isn't perfect, he definitely has admitted to his own faults as well.

Cap didn't give a flying f that Genosha got annihilated.

Originally posted by curryman
Shady shit?

What was World War II?

The good guys vs the bad guys?

Cap had plenty of disagreements against his superior officers and the top brass/politicians during WWII. Him fighting to help not just America but the rest of the world against the Axis Powers doesn't change that.

You seem to have this opinion that Cap is just a "yes man" for the US gov, when he's anything but that.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Cap had plenty of disagreements against his superior officers and the top brass/politicians during WWII. Him fighting to help not just America but the rest of the world against the Axis Powers doesn't change that.

You seem to have this opinion that Cap is just a "yes man" for the US gov, when he's anything but that.

Doesn't matter what his personal disagreements were, he went there as a symbol to strengthen the war-effort. Also, let's not forget the freaking program that helped create Captain America and the experiments that followed. Cap's relative obedience is part of the reason why they decided to keep trucking with the weapon x project!

And then there's just the unbelievably lack-luster effort on his behalf to actually do anything to help mutants. Hell all of the Avengers are guilty of this one.

Originally posted by curryman
Doesn't matter what his personal disagreements were, he went there as a symbol to strengthen the war-effort. Also, let's not forget the freaking program that helped create Captain America and the experiments that followed. Cap's relative obedience is part of the reason why they decided to keep trucking with the weapon x project!

And then there's just the unbelievably lack-luster effort on his behalf to actually do anything to help mutants. Hell all of the Avengers are guilty of this one.

Yeah, he inspired his fellow soldiers. Doesn't detract from the immense amount of good he accomplished at all. Cap volunteering (this is the key word) for Operation: Rebirth also doesn't make him a guilty party for less than altruistic people to decide to conduct their own super soldier programs with decidedly more torturous experimentation. To that end, you may as well blame Xavier for ushering in the X-Men because it lead to more and more mutants exposing themselves, some with far less noble intentions.

Cap's trust and faith in Pietro and Wanda was a huge step in the right direction for mutants. He took the children of the most infamous terrorist on the planet and showed that they were heroes, regardless of their genetics. And hell, if you're going to blame Cap and the Avengers for not doing much for mutants, you may as well blame the X-Men for not doing shit for humanity in general for all the times the Earth's been invaded or the universe has been peril. Let's face it, the X-Men are primarily motivated by mutant issues and how they mesh with humans (which is an admirable goal). The Avengers save lives, regardless of them being human, mutant, androids, gods, etc.

Damn guy, you can't be serious.

Some real ignorance going on in these posts

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yeah, he inspired his fellow soldiers. Doesn't detract from the immense amount of good he accomplished at all.
Yeah he inspired his fellow soliders. Inspired them to do what? Kill.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Cap volunteering (this is the key word) for Operation: Rebirth also doesn't make him a guilty party for less than altruistic people to decide to conduct their own super soldier programs with decidedly more torturous experimentation.
He volunteered but he was practically brainwashed into thinking that they were actually doing some good. Instead of going after people who profited off the war he went down there to kill soldiers. And you need to check your logic here because him volunteering makes him more of a party to their shady business then someone who was forced

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
To that end, you may as well blame Xavier for ushering in the X-Men because it lead to more and more mutants exposing themselves, some with far less noble intentions.
How is this the same? Captain America willingly joined and carried out work for perhaps the most malicious secret organization in Marvel-America. He did this out of some foolish notion that going to war is a good things, cause he had to "beat the bad guys".

Xavier being on the forefront in trying to actually help a group that's being systematically exterminated is not the same. And when you look at the difference here Xavier is raising people to use their powers responsibly. Cap completely failed at directing the American military/Rebirth/Weapon X in a proper direction. In fact he helped by becoming the ideal for their project.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Cap's trust and faith in Pietro and Wanda was a huge step in the right direction for mutants. He took the children of the most infamous terrorist on the planet and showed that they were heroes, regardless of their genetics.
This is a good thing. Should be an obvious one considering that our heroes should be beyond base racism

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
And hell, if you're going to blame Cap and the Avengers for not doing much for mutants, you may as well blame the X-Men for not doing shit for humanity in general for all the times the Earth's been invaded or the universe has been peril. Let's face it, the X-Men are primarily motivated by mutant issues and how they mesh with humans (which is an admirable goal). The Avengers save lives, regardless of them being human, mutant, androids, gods, etc.

This is a lie.

It's a lie and you know it

The X-Men have countless incidents of helping humans and the second biggest conflict that most of the X-Men deal with is constantly helping people who want to murder them! Do you know absolutely nothing about the X-Men?

Huh? The X-Men have regularly stood in front of humanity and protected it, whether it was from mutants or otherwise.

Originally posted by curryman
Damn guy, you can't be serious.

Some real ignorance going on in these posts

There's nothing ignorant about them.

Originally posted by curryman
Yeah he inspired his fellow soliders. Inspired them to do what? Kill.

He inspired people to do the right thing and help save and protect those who couldn't fend for themselves. Did his presence increase morale and as such effect combat efficiency? Sure. But Captain America was never and has never been about "kill enemy soldiers". If Cap could end skirmishes without taking a single life, he did.

Originally posted by curryman
He volunteered but he was practically brainwashed into thinking that they were actually doing some good. Instead of going after people who profited off the war he went down there to kill soldiers. And you need to check your logic here because him volunteering makes him more of a party to their shady business then someone who was forced

He went there to stop the Axis Powers, not the simplistic notion of just killing enemy troops. He was there primarily to thwart the Red Skull, a guy who's evil and influence went far and beyond that of Adolf Hitler. And he was shutting down the guys who were making and profiteering off the weapons as well. Cap did a helluva lot more than just fight on the front lines and score up a body count. That can't even be contested or argued against. And yes, him volunteering to be a super solider doesn't make him a guilty party for other people not connected with Operation Rebirth to twist the intent from Erskine's work into dark deeds. In fact, Cap's made it a point - numerous times - to fight against those who would do such a thing.

Originally posted by curryman
How is this the same? Captain America willingly joined and carried out work for perhaps the most malicious secret organization in Marvel-America. He did this out of some foolish notion that going to war is a good things, cause he had to "beat the bad guys".

He went to war to stop the Axis Powers, who in the Marvel Universe, were far worse and much more heinous than the real world. He fought bad guys, but more importantly, saved lives by storming concentration camps, disarming doomsday weapons, shutting down weapons plants, and foiling regular criminals in the mean time. Again, simplifying what Cap did doesn't make it true.

Originally posted by curryman
Xavier being on the forefront in trying to actually help a group that's being systematically exterminated is not the same. And when you look at the difference here Xavier is raising people to use their powers responsibly. Cap completely failed at directing the American military/Rebirth/Weapon X in a proper direction. In fact he helped by becoming the ideal for their project.

What? So Cap being arguably the single greatest hero on the planet and inspiring virtually every hero since somehow makes him a poster boy, and as such, to blame for people who want to corrupt what he's done? This doesn't even make any sense.

Originally posted by curryman
This is a good thing. Should be an obvious one considering that our heroes should be beyond base racism

And yeah, it's convenient that people like to argue "Cap's done nothing for mutants!" when he's personally vouched for and supported two former criminals - the children of the most infamous terrorist on the planet - into becoming members of the premier superhero team on the planet. The X-Men have always taken a center stage when it comes to mutant/human affairs and have such, often demanded the responsibility of paving the way. Cap's respected that and has gone on record to argue for mutant rights and that they deserve the same respect as any other human. What, do you want Cap to single handily solve the mutant/human issue?

Originally posted by curryman
This is a lie.

It's a lie and you know it

The X-Men have countless incidents of helping humans and the second biggest conflict that most of the X-Men deal with is constantly helping people who want to murder them! Do you know absolutely nothing about the X-Men?

How is it a lie? The X-Men's primary goal has always been advancement toward human/mutant equality and peace. If the issue/threat at hand doesn't directly involve mutants in some way, it's not a priority for them. That's not a lie, it's fact. Yes, they do save humans and at times the world as a whole (often from other mutants or threats somehow related to them), but the X-Men's primary function has never been to save the world and beyond from all manner of superhuman/extraterrestial threat. To that end, blaming the Avengers/Cap or claiming every time they weren't in a story equates to them "not caring" is as stupid as doing the same to the X-Men for every story or threat where they weren't present. The Avengers has mutants on the roster and have even defended them to the press multiple times. How many humans are X-Men?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Huh? The X-Men have regularly stood in front of humanity and protected it, whether it was from mutants or otherwise.

Of course they have and I didn't say they haven't.

But their primary goal has always been peace and co-existance between humans and mutants, not a task force specifically designed to save the world. Obviously, if they can, they'll do it, but their mission parameter isn't the same as the Avengers.

The argument that the Avengers or Captain America don't care about the X-Men because they're not involved with or shown in their arcs makes as much sense as the X-Men not giving a shit when something goes down in the world and the Avengers are off taking care of it.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
How is it a lie? The X-Men's primary goal has always been advancement toward human/mutant equality and peace. If the issue/threat at hand doesn't directly involve mutants in some way, it's not a priority for them. That's not a lie, it's fact. Yes, they do save humans and at times the world as a whole (often from other mutants or threats somehow related to them), but the X-Men's primary function has never been to save the world and beyond from all manner of superhuman/extraterrestial threat. To that end, blaming the Avengers/Cap or claiming every time they weren't in a story equates to them "not caring" is as stupid as doing the same to the X-Men for every story or threat where they weren't present.
I am not sure why the X-Men's primary agenda being focused upon bettering the conditions of their species somehow implies that "they haven't done shit for humanity" when such a statement couldn't be further from the truth. If it's not a lie, then it's either blatant ignorance or just a plain stupid analogy to use in this case. And I am not sure where you got the idea that an X-team only saves the world from mutant-related threats, because that too is at best a half-truth. The X-Men have saved the Earth from practically as many non-mutant threats as the Avengers have, they have gone out of their way to protect the very people that have committed genocide against them more times that I can count, so yeah, they have done shit for humanity. I am not sure whether it is wise to blame Cap and the Avengers for every time they weren't in a story to aid the X-Men, but if we're talking about AvX alone(which I am getting the idea that we are), then I simply don't see how it wasn't completely the Avengers(Cap and Tony specifically) fault that the events folded out the way they did.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
The Avengers has mutants on the roster and have even defended them to the press multiple times. How many humans are X-Men?
Fantomex, Kavita Rao, Mimic, Juggernaut, Sharon Friedlander, Tom Corsi, Charlotte Jones, Moira MacTaggert etc. There are probably more that I am missing out, but that's besides the point.

We're not going to see eye-to-eye on this one anytime soon.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
And yeah, it's convenient that people like to argue "Cap's done nothing for mutants!" when he's personally vouched for and supported two former criminals - the children of the most infamous terrorist on the planet - into becoming members of the premier superhero team on the planet.
Just so we don't forget, one of those "criminals" nearly destroyed the mutant race across all realities, tore up the omniverse and did other shit which has had never-ending consequences on the Marvel actuality. From that perspective, not such a grand gesture towards mutantkind on Cap's part.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I am not sure why the X-Men's primary agenda being focused upon bettering the conditions of their species somehow implies that "they haven't done shit for humanity" when such a statement couldn't be further from the truth. If it's not a lie, then it's either blatant ignorance or just a plain stupid analogy to use in this case. And I am not sure where you got the idea that an X-team only saves the world from mutant-related threats, because that too is at best a half-truth. The X-Men have saved the Earth from practically as many non-mutant threats as the Avengers have, they have gone out of their way to protect the very people that have committed genocide against them more times that I can count, so yeah, they have done shit for humanity. I am not sure whether it is wise to blame Cap and the Avengers for every time they weren't in a story to aid the X-Men, but if we're talking about AvX alone(which I am getting the idea that we are), then I simply don't see how it wasn't completely the Avengers(Cap and Tony specifically) fault that the events folded out the way they did.

Fantomex, Kavita Rao, Mimic, Juggernaut, Sharon Friedlander, Tom Corsi, Charlotte Jones, Moira MacTaggert etc. There are probably more that I am missing out, but that's besides the point.

Where did I say the X-Men haven't done shit for humanity? The X-Men saving the world is done in the hopes because A.) it's the right thing to do, and B.) in the hopes that if they do x amount of good deeds, they'll be accepted. Neither of which is a bad thing nor a strike against them but their primary purpose has always been a non-violent means to promote equality among the species. Just like the Fantastic Four, while having saved the world and beyond numerous times, never intended to be a vanguard for Earth, but rather an exploration team (or family) that will defend Earth if need be. And again, I never said the X-Men saves the world only from mutant related threats (though threats that are mutants or otherwise specifically related to them are their primary adversaries). And again, AvX shit on multiple characters characterization wise, X-Men and Avengers alike. It is an altogether horrid event that throws out years of established characterization to sell issues. And really, placing the blame solely on Cap and Tony is a wild inaccuracy.

Cool list, but most of the people you mentioned were already directly involved with the X-Men on some level or aren't field members.

Originally posted by SevenShackles
Really? really? Your so racist! Just because of the color of his skin You think you can hate on that fictional man? Shame him? Keep him out of your little contest?! Do ya punk?! Well sorry we can't all be big and green... You Damn gamma supremacists make me sick!

Your so racist I bet you would wanna be cap.(if he was green and full of gamma sauce)...actually I'd want to be that cap.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Just so we don't forget, one of those "criminals" nearly destroyed the mutant race across all realities, tore up the omniverse and did other shit which has had never-ending consequences on the Marvel actuality. From that perspective, not such a grand gesture towards mutantkind on Cap's part.

Yes, because Cap clearly knew that one day Wanda would have a breakdown.

Damn....didn't know this thread will go so far lol glad its being taken seriously. But come on why are people calling Cap A an ass?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Where did I say the X-Men haven't done shit for humanity? The X-Men saving the world is done in the hopes because A.) it's the right thing to do, and B.) in the hopes that if they do x amount of good deeds, they'll be accepted. Neither of which is a bad thing nor a strike against them but their primary purpose has always been a non-violent means to promote equality among the species. Just like the Fantastic Four, while having saved the world and beyond numerous times, never intended to be a vanguard for Earth, but rather an exploration team (or family) that will defend Earth if need be. And again, I never said the X-Men saves the world only from mutant related threats (though threats that are mutants or otherwise specifically related to them are their primary adversaries). And again, AvX shit on multiple characters characterization wise, X-Men and Avengers alike. It is an altogether horrid event that throws out years of established characterization to sell issues. And really, placing the blame solely on Cap and Tony is a wild inaccuracy.

Cool list, but most of the people you mentioned were already directly involved with the X-Men on some level or aren't field members.
This is where you said it:Originally posted by JakeTheBank
And hell, if you're going to blame Cap and the Avengers for not doing much for mutants, you may as well blame the X-Men for not doing shit for humanity in general for all the times the Earth's been invaded or the universe has been peril.
Again, I don't understand how the X-Men being motivated to fight for the rights of their species somehow detracts from the overall good that they have done for the world(and the universe/multiverse). Here is where you said that the X-Men mainly save the world from mutant related threats:Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yes, they do save humans and at times the world as a whole (often from other mutants or threats somehow related to them), but the X-Men's primary function has never been to save the world and beyond from all manner of superhuman/extraterrestial threat.It isn't a wild inaccuracy at all. While I agree with you that AvX shat upon the individual characterizations of many characters, you're in denial if you think that the cause for the whole mess didn't rest on Cap and Tony's shoulders.

I am not sure whether it matters, since most of those characters are non-mutant (super)humans, and all of them have been actively involved in the X-Men's affairs, and have also been major members of one X-team or the other at various points in their histories. The point is that you demanded how many mutants the X-Men have in comparison to the Avengers sporting mutants among their ranks. My answer was a sufficient one.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yes, because Cap clearly knew that one day Wanda would have a breakdown.
He knew about it after it happened, and he continued to harbor her. Clearly not a smart move on his part, if he was serious about "doing more for mutants".

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
This is where you said it:
Again, I don't understand how the X-Men being motivated to fight for the rights of their species somehow detracts from the overall good that they have done for the world(and the universe/multiverse). Here is where you said that the X-Men mainly save the world from mutant related threats:It isn't a wild inaccuracy at all. While I agree with you that AvX shat upon the individual characterizations of many characters, you're in denial if you think that the cause for the whole mess didn't rest on Cap and Tony's shoulders.

I am not sure whether it matters, since most of those characters are non-mutant (super)humans, and all of them have been actively involved in the X-Men's affairs, and have also been major members of one X-team or the other at various points in their histories. The point is that you demanded how many mutants the X-Men have in comparison to the Avengers sporting mutants among their ranks. My answer was a sufficient one.

He knew about it after it happened, and he continued to harbor her. Clearly not a smart move on his part, if he was serious about "doing more for mutants".

That was in response to the idea of blaming Cap and the Avengers for not doing anything for mutants by their absence in those arcs. It makes as much sense as blaming the X-Men or saying they didn't care when they weren't featured in crises which the Avengers were involved in...which is none. Especially when we already have numerous examples of Cap being outspoken for mutants and openly supporting them.

Cyclops, in spite of all of his experience and knowledge of the Phoenix Force, somehow thinks its arrival will be a positive one. It literally defies explanation. The ball was always in Scott's court. It could have stopped at pretty much any point he wanted it to. When Magneto is constantly telling you "Hey, dude, chill out lol" you should take a long hard look in the mirror.

Which doesn't detract from what I said. It is an impressive list, though.

What did you want him to do? Murder her or let the X-Men murder her for something that wasn't her fault?

It had the potential to be a positive one. With Rachel guiding her, Hope could have taken on the Phoenix and used it to jumpstart the X-Gene in humanity again, just like she did with Wanda...even though Wanda and the K'un L'un training didn't make sense at all. And with it, the Phoenix 5 were turning the world into a much better place. It wasn't a "bad" thing for Jean either. Only when she was manipulated into becoming Dark Phoenix, and the Phoenix 5 only started going bad after they were constantly attacked by the Avengers.(Except Namor...Namor was a colossal dick)

And things would have gone much smoother if Cap didn't bring the entire Avengers with him to basically kidnap Hope.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
That was in response to the idea of blaming Cap and the Avengers for not doing anything for mutants by their absence in those arcs. It makes as much sense as blaming the X-Men or saying they didn't care when they weren't featured in crises which the Avengers were involved in...which is none. Especially when we already have numerous examples of Cap being outspoken for mutants and openly supporting them.

Cyclops, in spite of all of his experience and knowledge of the Phoenix Force, somehow thinks its arrival will be a positive one. It literally defies explanation. The ball was always in Scott's court. It could have stopped at pretty much any point he wanted it to. When Magneto is constantly telling you "Hey, dude, chill out lol" you should take a long hard look in the mirror.

Which doesn't detract from what I said. It is an impressive list, though.

What did you want him to do? Murder her or let the X-Men murder her for something that wasn't her fault?
Then you shouldn't have gone on to defend this line of thought when it was subjected to criticism from the poster against whom these remarks of yours were originally directed at. As it stands, you seem to honestly think that the X-Men have never been there to help save the Earth from whatever big menace that it faced, when such a notion couldn't be further from the truth. And anyways, as far them being in the same events that the Avengers faced, that's what inter-title crossovers are for, in a shared universe nonetheless.

Notwithstanding the fact that everything was in indication of it's coming ultimately reigniting the mutant race and benefiting Earth's evolutionary cycle, how exactly is it justifiable to blame Scott for his faith when Tony used pretty much the same thing as the ultimate solution for this event? The ball was always in Scott's court? Are you kidding me? The Phoenix Force was torn apart into 5 pieces courtesy of Tony Stark, and it ended up in 5 unworthy hosts as a result. We've already seen the devastating effects of what happens when the Phoenix completely corrupts its in the form of Jean Grey, and that was a host with whom the Phoenix has the most intimate bond. The fact that Scott didn't just straight up nuke the whole planet when he was going crazy is actually testament to the restraint he was showing to the dark influence of the Phoenix power.

It was a sufficient response to your original demand. Be happy with it.

The X-Men would have put her on trial, as was evidenced by Scott's remarks in Children's Crusade. Handing her over would really have been a gesture of giving then an opportunity to extract justice for the senseless slaughter of their kind.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Then you shouldn't have gone on to defend this line of thought when it was subjected to criticism from the poster against whom these remarks of yours were originally directed at. As it stands, you seem to honestly think that the X-Men have never been there to help save the Earth from whatever big menace that it faced, when such a notion couldn't be further from the truth. And anyways, as far them being in the same events that the Avengers faced, that's what inter-title crossovers are for, in a shared universe nonetheless.

Notwithstanding the fact that everything was in indication of it's coming ultimately reigniting the mutant race and benefiting Earth's evolutionary cycle, how exactly is it justifiable to blame Scott for his faith when Tony used pretty much the same thing as the ultimate solution for this event? The ball was always in Scott's court? Are you kidding me? The Phoenix Force was torn apart into 5 pieces courtesy of Tony Stark, and it ended up in 5 unworthy hosts as a result. We've already seen the devastating effects of what happens when the Phoenix completely corrupts its in the form of Jean Grey, and that was a host with whom the Phoenix has the most intimate bond. The fact that Scott didn't just straight up nuke the whole planet when he was going crazy is actually testament to the restraint he was showing to the dark influence of the Phoenix power.

It was a sufficient response to your original demand. Be happy with it.

The X-Men would have put her on trial, as was evidenced by Scott's remarks in Children's Crusade. Handing her over would really have been a gesture of giving then an opportunity to extract justice for the senseless slaughter of their kind.

facepalm I clearly stated, numerous times, that the X-Men have done things to help humanity and have saved the world from threats not originating from mutants. That said, it doesn't change the fact that they're primary goal has always been to promote equality and understanding between humans and mutants and to defend the world from mutants who would jeopardize that. The first issue of the series is testament to that as well as their most infamous and enduring adversary in the form of Magneto. I don't think that Cap or the Avengers should be blamed or otherwise criticized for "not helping" mutant kind when Cap's done plenty for them in the public eye via his endorsing of Pietro/Wanda to say nothing of else of others like Beast and Storm. To that end, it would be stupid to blame the X-Men for all the times they weren't there helping humanity as "not doing enough" because of them being absent.

Scott went all militant at the drop of a hat and AvX firmly pushed him over the edge. The seeds had been there for a while, but really, the way his character had developed (badly) ensured that things weren't going to end pretty. Scott not going completely bonkers by event's end doesn't mean he deserves a cookie. History has an overall less than positive view of the PF and what happens when it manifests suddenly. Scott, by all rights, should have known this, but instead wanted to reignite the mutant race in spite of the risks involved. For someone who wants to protect both humans and mutants, it reeks of irresponsibility.

I already touched on it.

Assuming Rogue or Logan didn't gank her first. It was clear, abundantly so, that Wanda wasn't in her right mind. They didn't want to help Wanda, they wanted revenge (or "justice" for something that was beyond her means of control.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Of course they have and I didn't say they haven't.

But their primary goal has always been peace and co-existance between humans and mutants, not a task force specifically designed to save the world. Obviously, if they can, they'll do it, but their mission parameter isn't the same as the Avengers.

The argument that the Avengers or Captain America don't care about the X-Men because they're not involved with or shown in their arcs makes as much sense as the X-Men not giving a shit when something goes down in the world and the Avengers are off taking care of it.

Except that it's not just when they're saving the world. Marvel makes it a point to state that mutant affairs are largely ignored until it benefits or worries someone on one of those teams. It's more than just "this is your little hero universe" going on.

Like Civil War and the registration, for example.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
facepalm I clearly stated, numerous times, that the X-Men have done things to help humanity and have saved the world from threats not originating from mutants. That said, it doesn't change the fact that they're primary goal has always been to promote equality and understanding between humans and mutants and to defend the world from mutants who would jeopardize that. The first issue of the series is testament to that as well as their most infamous and enduring adversary in the form of Magneto. I don't think that Cap or the Avengers should be blamed or otherwise criticized for "not helping" mutant kind when Cap's done plenty for them in the public eye via his endorsing of Pietro/Wanda to say nothing of else of others like Beast and Storm. To that end, it would be stupid to blame the X-Men for all the times they weren't there helping humanity as "not doing enough" because of them being absent.

Scott went all militant at the drop of a hat and AvX firmly pushed him over the edge. The seeds had been there for a while, but really, the way his character had developed (badly) ensured that things weren't going to end pretty. Scott not going completely bonkers by event's end doesn't mean he deserves a cookie. History has an overall less than positive view of the PF and what happens when it manifests suddenly. Scott, by all rights, should have known this, but instead wanted to reignite the mutant race in spite of the risks involved. For someone who wants to protect both humans and mutants, it reeks of irresponsibility.

I already touched on it.

Assuming Rogue or Logan didn't gank her first. It was clear, abundantly so, that Wanda wasn't in her right mind. They didn't want to help Wanda, they wanted revenge (or "justice" for something that was beyond her means of control.
You can tag as many pointless smilies to your post as your want, the fact of the matter is you did that only after having the utterly laughable premise behind this line of thought pointed out to you. Before that you were content to defend it against curryman.

What the hell are you talking about? Scott saw Cap's illegal invasion of Utopia as exactly what it was: an illegal invasion. I love how you take every opportunity to demonize every single action taken by Scott in that series, and go out of your way to either ignore or delve into apologetics for Cap and Tony's actions. You also don't know much about the Phoenix' history from the likes of it either, because in every single case where a PF-host went bonkers, an outside agency was involved in twisting them. Rachel Grey is the perfect example of what a Phoenix character would be like were they not tampered by malicious forces. In the case of the P5, not only were they not the intended hosts of the PF, but the Force was already fractured by the time it was forcefully shoved in their bodies. This case again illustrates the Phoenix gone wrong as a result of the foolish tampering of an outside agency, in this case Tony Stark. All the planetary destruction notwithstanding, the Phoenix was coming to Earth to reignite the mutant race, and this much was made clear in the series' tie-ins itself, and which it ultimately did achieve, ironically in the same manner as Scott had foreseen it to begin with.

Then stop fretting over it.

I love how you make an excuse for Wanda because "she wasn't in her right mind", yet refuse to give the same benefit of doubt to the P5 despite the on-panel evidence literally telling us that they were rapidly losing control of their actions to the corrupting influence of the Phoenix power that had been forced upon them.

Anyways, I am logging out due to the problems my wifi is creating for me right now.

However, JaketheBank, don't think even for a second that I am backing down or that this debate is over between the 2 of us, 'cuz it's not. I'll be back some hours later.

Originally posted by curryman


Xavier all the way. correct answer

Hasn't Cap given Kitty Pryde Mutant "cure" in the Together We Stand... arc

just sayin that doesnt sound like the actions of someone with the Mutants best interests at heart...

And IMO Nick Fury has a better understanding with the Mutants than Cap

Anyway I say T'challa

Originally posted by jitay
And IMO Nick Fury has a better understanding with the Mutants than Cap

Nick Fury almost flat out stated that he didn't care about Genosha in Astonishing X-Men

well i am mistaken

Originally posted by jitay
well i am mistaken

I mean, that's just one writer though.

I'm sure he's been pretty decent towards them. He was working on shutting down the concentration camps on American soil after all

Prof X obviously. He's a great dyplomat. So is Steve but unlike Xavier he's also a symbol and thats the problem. He cant represent Earth. Don't take it the wrong way but America isn't exactly everyone's favorite country, so a guy with American symbol on his chest teaching everyone how to live and what to do will not be appreciated by many.

Originally posted by SamZED
Prof X obviously. He's a great dyplomat. So is Steve but unlike Xavier he's also a symbol and thats the problem. He cant represent Earth. Don't take it the wrong way but America isn't exactly everyone's favorite country, so a guy with American symbol on his chest teaching everyone how to live and what to do will not be appreciated by many.

And Xavier's no stranger to using his dick as a diplomatic tool.

Does Steve still have one???

Originally posted by curryman
And Xavier's no stranger to using his dick as a diplomatic tool.

When was this with The X

I know Beast is Doing it now

Beast for President

Originally posted by KingD19
It had the potential to be a positive one. With Rachel guiding her, Hope could have taken on the Phoenix and used it to jumpstart the X-Gene in humanity again, just like she did with Wanda...even though Wanda and the K'un L'un training didn't make sense at all. And with it, the Phoenix 5 were turning the world into a much better place. It wasn't a "bad" thing for Jean either. Only when she was manipulated into becoming Dark Phoenix, and the Phoenix 5 only started going bad after they were constantly attacked by the Avengers.(Except Namor...Namor was a colossal dick)

And things would have gone much smoother if Cap didn't bring the entire Avengers with him to basically kidnap Hope. I hate to tell you this but according to AvX had Scott followed through with his plans and due to Hope not having her companions/friends to help her carry the weight of PF she would have lost control and destroyed Earth.

Also remember while the X-Men were making the world a better place they were also turning it into a tyranny where you either followed them or were sent to Magik's Limbo prison. Not to mention many of the Phoenix Five if not all of them were showing signs of mental instability and starting to do horrible things and break down.

While I'm not saying Cap was righteous and without fault don't make it sound like the X-Men were some poor unfortunate group that was being picked on. They were clear and present dangers with what they were doing.

As for being a Diplomat I would pick Cap. But that's personal opinion. If there is one thing Cap is good at it's bringing out the best in people under any circumstance it's almost like his true Superpower.

Originally posted by Newjak
As for being a Diplomat I would pick Cap. But that's personal opinion. If there is one thing Cap is good at it's bringing out the best in people under any circumstance it's almost like his true Superpower.

Do you have an example?

Feel like Xavier is just so, so much better at this.

Originally posted by curryman
Do you have an example?

Feel like Xavier is just so, so much better at this. Civil War would be a pretty good example of how much impact Captain America can have on a group of people. HE took a group of heroes that was lacking in resources and often times equal power and managed to hurt the pro reg side a number of times.

Also look how it ended. The fight ended as soon as Captain America turned himself in. A few people kept going but basically as soon as Steve said they were wrong the anti-reg side stopped all because of Steve.

It's also why Tony wanted Steve on his side early on because he knew with Steve on his side he could basically get all the support he wanted. It's also an example of Steve not simply being a yes-man for the government.

Heck Steve during the AvX fiasco managed to have a diplomatic talk with one of Phoenix Five without it coming to a fight or attacking anyone. Based solely on Namor's respect for Steve. It was also one of the few times in the arc Namor wasn't trying to kill everyone.

I know nothing came of it but it's not like Xavier can claim he ended the fight either.

Hey don't speak ill of the temporarily dead

Newjak, those are two completely different things. To me rallying people behind a symbol and organizing them is not the same as bringing out the best in people.

And speaking of mutants, Cap seemed to wanna give Quentin life-imprisonment for making the weapon-conference guys reveal their secrets.

Life.

cap. Xaviers a little too trigger happy going into a persons mind when he thinks they dont realize it.

rogers there both great choices but rogers is american and he has a pure heart wants nothing but the best for humanity

Originally posted by Newjak
I hate to tell you this but according to AvX had Scott followed through with his plans and due to Hope not having her companions/friends to help her carry the weight of PF she would have lost control and destroyed Earth.

Also remember while the X-Men were making the world a better place they were also turning it into a tyranny where you either followed them or were sent to Magik's Limbo prison. Not to mention many of the Phoenix Five if not all of them were showing signs of mental instability and starting to do horrible things and break down.

While I'm not saying Cap was righteous and without fault don't make it sound like the X-Men were some poor unfortunate group that was being picked on. They were clear and present dangers with what they were doing.

As for being a Diplomat I would pick Cap. But that's personal opinion. If there is one thing Cap is good at it's bringing out the best in people under any circumstance it's almost like his true Superpower.
Which doesn't make any sense, because Hope had been training all her life, she had been waiting the moment she found out about the Phoenix. I am not sure how exactly a a few days in Kun Lun of pretty much the same training that she had been receiving from her birth, suddenly gives her an edge, and why Rachel(who has much better experience than Wanda) couldn't have guided/taught her on how to restrain its power. Plus, it's not like Hope was some unintended host that was vying for the Phoenix power. She was the PF's chosen host, and it was all but stated that the Phoenix was coming to Earth reignite the mutant race.

The P5, under the corrupting influence of the Phoenix, were portrayed as the villains in that arc, not the X-Men. The X-Men ultimately came to the same side as the Avengers and helped battle the P5. If it weren't for their help, and the help that the Avengers received from the premier X-Man(Prof X himself), the battle would have been lost.

What dangers? Cap and T'Challa were whining about how the X-Men were harboring a potential world-destroying mutant in their midst, despite the fact that the Fantastic Four harbor an even greater threat in their ranks(Franklin) and both Cap and T'Challa first hand witnessed his adult self's power during the war of the 4 cities, in the battle against the Mad Celestials. Hope is also much better trained in the usage of her abilities, unlike Franklin who could just end the whole universe with one wrong thought, so that point is moot.

Fair enough.

Xavier.

Civil rights leader, humanitarian, scholar.

Also a telepath of the highest caliber. That would definitely come in handy in diplomacy. Empathy is a big part of diplomacy.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Which doesn't make any sense, because Hope had been training all her life, she had been waiting the moment she found out about the Phoenix. I am not sure how exactly a a few days in Kun Lun of pretty much the same training that she had been receiving from her birth, suddenly gives her an edge, and why Rachel(who has much better experience than Wanda) couldn't have guided/taught her on how to restrain its power. Plus, it's not like Hope was some unintended host that was vying for the Phoenix power. She was the PF's chosen host, and it was all but stated that the Phoenix was coming to Earth reignite the mutant race.

The P5, under the corrupting influence of the Phoenix, were portrayed as the villains in that arc, not the X-Men. The X-Men ultimately came to the same side as the Avengers and helped battle the P5. If it weren't for their help, and the help that the Avengers received from the premier X-Man(Prof X himself), the battle would have been lost.

What dangers? Cap and T'Challa were whining about how the X-Men were harboring a potential world-destroying mutant in their midst, despite the fact that the Fantastic Four harbor an even greater threat in their ranks(Franklin) and both Cap and T'Challa first hand witnessed his adult self's power during the war of the 4 cities, in the battle against the Mad Celestials. Hope is also much better trained in the usage of her abilities, unlike Franklin who could just end the whole universe with one wrong thought, so that point is moot.

Fair enough. A lot of things didn't make sense about AvX but if you're gonna use it like you are you need to at least be willing to take all of it in, and the fact remains had Cap not intervened the Phoenix would have destroyed Earth because Rachel did not have her companion to help control it.

Also the Phoenix did destroy a few worlds on its journey to Earth so it's not like a real threat wasn't shown and picked up on by everyone.

Franklin is different from Hope. Hope was summong a possible world ending force to her a force that was shown to destroy worlds in the same arc you're referencing, and it was never Caps intention to do anything to girl herself they were just trying to prevent her merger with the PF.

captain america would never ever work. let's take a look at the nature of the character:

he was created for propaganda purposes: an association of the best humanity could possibly offer with the USA and a defense of the country's involvement in the war in europe.

now, as Jake has pointed out, Cap realizes his country "isn't perfect" (a coy way of putting it) and often challenges his government's policies. this, of course, stems from the writers themselves becoming more skeptical and critical of the US establishment and culture.

nevertheless, his identification with the US is exactly the reason he gets the mary suish treatment of personifying (the writer's view of) good and justice. it is the reason he inspires "everybody in the world". he represents what americans would or do like to believe about their country. he isn't just a walking symbol of a nation he is a walking symbol of belief in american exceptionality.

if we're being minimally realistic and setting aside moments of mary sue grandeur, he would never be accepted as a global diplomat, not even by US allies, and would always be viewed as a pawn of american interests.

chuck on the other hand stands for people rising above the their differences and the vendetta cycles towards mutual acceptance and peaceful coexistence. sure he is flawed, controlling and arrogant. He has hipocritically violated his own beliefs, but he does live up to them most of the time and more importantly, he is a symbol of integration and isn't viewed as anyboy's pawn. he's also more intelligent and accomplished as a diplomat, as others have pointed out.

as for cap being more grounded to reality and willing to do what it takes to preserve peace, I disagree wholeheartedly. he is mr. "there's always another way" as exemplified by his handling of the wanda situation leading to house of m.

Originally posted by Newjak
A lot of things didn't make sense about AvX but if you're gonna use it like you are you need to at least be willing to take all of it in, and the fact remains had Cap not intervened the Phoenix would have destroyed Earth because Rachel did not have her companion to help control it. had cap not intervened hope wouldnt have fled utopia and would have the lights with her when the phoenix came, though we'll never know how things would work out without kenji on the group.

Originally posted by Newjak
A lot of things didn't make sense about AvX but if you're gonna use it like you are you need to at least be willing to take all of it in, and the fact remains had Cap not intervened the Phoenix would have destroyed Earth because Rachel did not have her companion to help control it.

Also the Phoenix did destroy a few worlds on its journey to Earth so it's not like a real threat wasn't shown and picked up on by everyone.

Franklin is different from Hope. Hope was summong a possible world ending force to her a force that was shown to destroy worlds in the same arc you're referencing, and it was never Caps intention to do anything to girl herself they were just trying to prevent her merger with the PF.
The point is that it's speculation though. The X-Men(specifically Scott who knows the Phoenix better than anyone else) were confident that Hope would control it, she'd been receiving the same training she got in KunLun her entire life, that coupled with the fact that the Phoenix was coming to Earth to specifically undo Wanda's spell clearly tells me that either way, the end result would have mutants on the rise again.

I am completely aware of that, and have addressed it in previous posts as well. For all the destruction it caused, it was made abundantly clear that the Phoenix was coming to Earth for one reason only: to revive the mutants and restore the natural evolutionary order of things.

Nope, they attempted to forcefully take her from the X-Men in the beginning of the arc. That Hope decided to leave with them because of her seeming disillusionment with the P5's actions is wholly another matter. Not to mention that Cap essentially insulted the ability of the X-Men to keep Hope under control once she became the Phoenix, when we have already seen the number of times the X-Men have successfully dealt with the Phoenix. Franklin has also time and again been referenced as a cosmic scale threat, in the presence of Abstract Beings no less, yet the Avengers have never bothered bullying the Fantastic Four into giving him up.

It's 'earth' picking a diplomat. Rogers at heart is a soldier and despite whatever peace he might have been able to barter between any parties he isn't suited for a job of pure diplomacy.

Prof X has the mental advantage if better understanding or even if underhanded matters are needed to solidify peace. He also has shown competent dealing with space aliens and thier cultures. The job of representing earth as a whole implicates diplomacy is needed against non earth related parties and Prof X is much more suited for it. If talks break down and conflict is needed then Steve has his time to shine as a rally point for humanity to fight.

I don't understand why this has dragged on for so long lol.

Originally posted by 753
had cap not intervened hope wouldnt have fled utopia and would have the lights with her when the phoenix came, though we'll never know how things would work out without kenji on the group. Except Unit was keeping her lights from her. Even if Hope had stayed with the X-Men the world would have been destroyed still.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
The point is that it's speculation though. The X-Men(specifically Scott who knows the Phoenix better than anyone else) were confident that Hope would control it, she'd been receiving the same training she got in KunLun her entire life, that coupled with the fact that the Phoenix was coming to Earth to specifically undo Wanda's spell clearly tells me that either way, the end result would have mutants on the rise again.

I am completely aware of that, and have addressed it in previous posts as well. For all the destruction it caused, it was made abundantly clear that the Phoenix was coming to Earth for one reason only: to revive the mutants and restore the natural evolutionary order of things.

Nope, they attempted to forcefully take her from the X-Men in the beginning of the arc. That Hope decided to leave with them because of her seeming disillusionment with the P5's actions is wholly another matter. Not to mention that Cap essentially insulted the ability of the X-Men to keep Hope under control once she became the Phoenix, when we have already seen the number of times the X-Men have successfully dealt with the Phoenix. Franklin has also time and again been referenced as a cosmic scale threat, in the presence of Abstract Beings no less, yet the Avengers have never bothered bullying the Fantastic Four into giving him up. It was also made abundantly clear by Unit that without her friends Hope would have lost control and destroyed everything.

Need I remind you that one of the solutions that the X-Men used to stop and control the Phoenix once was Wolverine killing Jean. So don't act like they have a perfect bloodless track record in dealing with the Phoenix.

It wasn't a forgone conclusion by any stretch of the imagination that Phoenix couldn't or wouldn't destroy the world.

Cap tried to take her from the X-Men because Cyclops plan was to do nothing.

I don't understand why you keep bringing up Franklin as a counter. Cap never had any attention of hurting Hope his main goal was to stop the Phoenix cause it was an immediate and real threat at the moment going on a cosmic stampede towards Earth. Even when Wolverine tried to kill Hope Cap didn't want any of it. Had Hope already been in possession of the PF and had it under control Cap wouldn't have cared.

Originally posted by Newjak
It was also made abundantly clear by Unit that without her friends Hope would have lost control and destroyed everything.

Need I remind you that one of the solutions that the X-Men used to stop and control the Phoenix once was Wolverine killing Jean. So don't act like they have a perfect bloodless track record in dealing with the Phoenix.

It wasn't a forgone conclusion by any stretch of the imagination that Phoenix couldn't or wouldn't destroy the world.

Cap tried to take her from the X-Men because Cyclops plan was to do nothing.

I don't understand why you keep bringing up Franklin as a counter. Cap never had any attention of hurting Hope his main goal was to stop the Phoenix cause it was an immediate and real threat at the moment going on a cosmic stampede towards Earth. Even when Wolverine tried to kill Hope Cap didn't want any of it. Had Hope already been in possession of the PF and had it under control Cap wouldn't have cared.
And the Avengers added up to that stupidity by breaking the Force into 5 fragments and causing it crashland in 5 unworthy hosts.

I am not talking merely about the Jean Grey incident, I am also talking about the times the X-Men have managed to fight off the Phoenix Force on their lonesome, scans of which have been posted by MrMaster before. And as far as Wolverine goes, he tried to kill Hope before the Phoenix even reached her. He was part of the Avengers in this case, so I presume they would take responsibility for his erratic behavior.

Scott's plan was for the natural order of things to unfold. The Phoenix was coming to Earth for one reason: correcting the aftermath of the disasters created by Wanda, and it intended to use Hope as a vessel to fulfill that purpose. Tony's ultimate plan for defeating the Phoenix was pretty much the same thing that Scott had intended to do from the start, so irony abounds in that case.

I keep bringing him up because Scott was chastised for supposedly harboring a potential planet-destroying mutant in his midst, when it reeks of hypocrisy that the F4 have the right to harbor every bit the same threat in the form of Franklin. I know that Cap never had any intention for hurting her, what I am saying is that he had no right to simply barge into Utopia and demand that they turn her over to him either, as not only was this an illegal invasive act, it was insulting as he thought the Avengers could not only take care of Hope but also knew better than the X-Men of the threat that the Phoenix represented, which simply isn't true.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
And the Avengers added up to that stupidity by breaking the Force into 5 fragments and causing it crashland in 5 unworthy hosts.

I am not talking merely about the Jean Grey incident, I am also talking about the times the X-Men have managed to fight off the Phoenix Force on their lonesome, scans of which have been posted by MrMaster before. And as far as Wolverine goes, he tried to kill Hope before the Phoenix even reached her. He was part of the Avengers in this case, so I presume they would take responsibility for his erratic behavior.

Scott's plan was for the natural order of things to unfold. The Phoenix was coming to Earth for one reason: correcting the aftermath of the disasters created by Wanda, and it intended to use Hope as a vessel to fulfill that purpose. Tony's ultimate plan for defeating the Phoenix was pretty much the same thing that Scott had intended to do from the start, so irony abounds in that case.

I keep bringing him up because Scott was chastised for supposedly harboring a potential planet-destroying mutant in his midst, when it reeks of hypocrisy that the F4 have the right to harbor every bit the same threat in the form of Franklin. I know that Cap never had any intention for hurting her, what I am saying is that he had no right to simply barge into Utopia and demand that they turn her over to him either, as not only was this an illegal invasive act, it was insulting as he thought the Avengers could not only take care of Hope but also knew better than the X-Men of the threat that the Phoenix represented, which simply isn't true. Except according to story narrative that prevented Hope from getting the Phoenix which at the time she couldn't handle and would have destroyed Earth.

Cap dumped Wolverine because of what Logan had planned for Hope. Cap literally dumped him out of a plane.

And much like you keep neglecting to bring up is that Cyclops' original plan of doing nothing would have ended with the world being destroyed as Hope couldn't control the Phoenix without her companions at the time.

There have been times the X-Men were powerless against the Phoenix as well.

Scott was chastised because he wasn't doing anything. All everyone knew was that a giant flaming bird was rampaging through the universe destroying planet after planet. It was a clear and present danger to many people.

Simply acting act what Cap did was wrong doesn't make it wrong. Billions of lives were at stake on Scott's gamble (which has been said a many times before would have failed had no one intervened)

It was never the fact that Hope was completely dangerous and Cap had to have her near him for safety it was always the fact that Scott basically was allowing a possible global catastrophic event to happen.

Originally posted by Newjak
Except Unit was keeping her lights from her. Even if Hope had stayed with the X-Men the world would have been destroyed still.

It was also made abundantly clear by Unit that without her friends Hope would have lost control and destroyed everything.
I recall the issue in which unit holds and mindwipes them, but werent the lights with hope just before she fled utopia?

unit did not know what would happen, the point of his plot was to find out.

Captain America actually proves the Nazis right, America just found out the way to produce a blonde hair, blue eyed super soldier first...

ironically created by jews angry at the pogrom in europe

This is a spite thread against Cap... X can just TP other nations FTW... no better diplomat than that.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is a spite thread against Cap... X can just TP other nations FTW... no better diplomat than that.

's not really diplomacy...

Though it would really help with new languages!

Originally posted by Newjak
Except according to story narrative that prevented Hope from getting the Phoenix which at the time she couldn't handle and would have destroyed Earth.

Cap dumped Wolverine because of what Logan had planned for Hope. Cap literally dumped him out of a plane.

And much like you keep neglecting to bring up is that Cyclops' original plan of doing nothing would have ended with the world being destroyed as Hope couldn't control the Phoenix without her companions at the time.

There have been times the X-Men were powerless against the Phoenix as well.

Scott was chastised because he wasn't doing anything. All everyone knew was that a giant flaming bird was rampaging through the universe destroying planet after planet. It was a clear and present danger to many people.

Simply acting act what Cap did was wrong doesn't make it wrong. Billions of lives were at stake on Scott's gamble (which has been said a many times before would have failed had no one intervened)

It was never the fact that Hope was completely dangerous and Cap had to have her near him for safety it was always the fact that Scott basically was allowing a possible global catastrophic event to happen.
Entirely speculative that she wouldn't have been able to handle it. That event also set in motion the P5 idiocy, which seemingly "villainized" the X-Men for the good golden Avengers to fight off. How convenient for them.

Wolverine still actively worked as part of the Avengers even after that scene.

Hardly. Rachel Grey never went psycho all the while she possessed the PF, and Jean wouldn't have to were it not for the Hellfire Club's stupidity. The Phoenix has a history of never intentionally corrupting its chosen host and Hope was, by all accounts, its chosen host.

Of course, just as the Fantastic Four would be powerless before Galactus or the Avengers would be powerless Chthon or the Serpent. These are nigh-omnipotent characters that these teams go up against, so their chances of always triumphing aren't really that good.

Scott has already witnessed first the destruction of billions of lives on an alien planet when the Dark Phoenix was first unleashed, so he's in a better position to judge whether or not the Phoenix comes for destruction or rebirth. As it so happened, despite all the destruction that it caused its way to Earth, the Phoenix was coming for rebirth.

It doesn't matter whether the writers intended her to be that dangerous or not, the Avengers clearly considered her to be so, with Black Panther chastising Scott for secretly harboring a potential planet-killing mutant, and Wolverine attempting to murder her before she even acquired the Phoenix power.

As long as we can all agree that Cyclops is a ****, that's enough for me.

Originally posted by -Pr-
As long as we can all agree that Cyclops is a ****, that's enough for me. I thought Cyclops was one of your favorite characters

Cyclops has been my favourite character since I was old enough to read comics. We're talking almost a quarter of a century.

Marvel just ****ing ruined him these last few years.

Originally posted by KingD19
It had the potential to be a positive one. With Rachel guiding her, Hope could have taken on the Phoenix and used it to jumpstart the X-Gene in humanity again, just like she did with Wanda...even though Wanda and the K'un L'un training didn't make sense at all. And with it, the Phoenix 5 were turning the world into a much better place. It wasn't a "bad" thing for Jean either. Only when she was manipulated into becoming Dark Phoenix, and the Phoenix 5 only started going bad after they were constantly attacked by the Avengers.(Except Namor...Namor was a colossal dick)

And things would have gone much smoother if Cap didn't bring the entire Avengers with him to basically kidnap Hope.

The stakes were too high.

If Scott was right, the mutant race gets a reboot.

If he was wrong, everyone dies.

Come to think of it, even if Cap successfully kidnapped Hope and they couldn't keep her from the PF, everyone dies..

I hate to say it, but pragmatically, Logan probably had the right idea..

Originally posted by -Pr-
Cyclops has been my favourite character since I was old enough to read comics. We're talking almost a quarter of a century.

Marvel just ****ing ruined him these last few years. Okay.......lol Cyclops is my favorite X-Men(Before Gambit was introduced),He was also my favorite character too(before I read Hulk comics)

Originally posted by TheHulk
Okay.......lol Cyclops is my favorite X-Men(Before Gambit was introduced),He was also my favorite character too(before I read Hulk comics)

When I was growing up (and this is the late 80s) my favourite characters were Cyclops, Colossus, Thor, Hulk and Dr. Doom.

Originally posted by -Pr-
When I was growing up (and this is the late 80s) my favourite characters were Cyclops, Colossus, Thor, Hulk and Dr. Doom.

Didn't ride the Wolverine bandwagon, even a little bit?

I'll cop, I did. ^_^;;

I liked Cyke and Colossus a bit more, though.

And in general, Hulk was the man. Thor, I didn't even really discover until much later, as I was more into collecting Superman, Transformers, and Archie comics at the time..

Originally posted by cdtm
Didn't ride the Wolverine bandwagon, even a little bit?

I'll cop, I did. ^_^;;

I liked Cyke and Colossus a lot more.

But tbh, I was collecting more Transformers comics then anything.

Cyclops was my favourite character from the start, and given the natural rivalry between them, I had to pick sides.

I used to actively dislike Wolverine. That's morphed over the years in to a sense of just not caring anymore.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Cyclops was my favourite character from the start, and given the natural rivalry between them, I had to pick sides.

I used to actively dislike Wolverine. That's morphed over the years in to a sense of just not caring anymore.

So, it was mainly because Cyke and Logan were rivals?

Not because of the fanboyism that was all over the place even before the internet as we know it, or Logan being in virtually every comic, or how the writers always pandered to the fans by making him so awesome...? ^_^;

(I still maintain I liked him, but I can see a "lot" of reasons to hate, or at least dislike, him..)

I mean, if they were never rivals, would that have changed your opinion of him?

Originally posted by cdtm
So, it was mainly because Cyke and Logan were rivals?

Not because of the fanboyism that was all over the place even before the internet as we know it, or Logan being in virtually every comic, or how the writers always pandered to the fans by making him so awesome...? ^_^;

(I still maintain I liked him, but I can see a "lot" of reasons to hate, or at least dislike, him..)

I mean, if they were never rivals, would that have changed your opinion of him?

Probably not. Even as a kid, I tended to be more interested in the characters that were the leaders of their groups. Lion-O, Bravestarr, Cyclops, Leonardo, Captain America etc as opposed to the "cool" members of the groups.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Probably not. Even as a kid, I tended to be more interested in the characters that were the leaders of their groups. Lion-O, Bravestarr, Cyclops, Leonardo, Captain America etc as opposed to the "cool" members of the groups.

Not a fan of the "That guy".

Originally posted by -Pr-
When I was growing up (and this is the late 80s) my favourite characters were Cyclops, Colossus, Thor, Hulk and Dr. Doom. I liked the cool looking characters myself.

Colossus, Omega Red, Juggernaut, Apocalypse, Venom, Carnage, Thanos, and Surfer.

Oh Marvel cartoons, how I miss how good you were.

I also even liked first form Onslaught...

Surfers cool looking?

Marvel did have some of the best designs. Juggernaut's a favorite, and he could look downright scary, with his hands drawn the size of some mutants bodies..

Originally posted by cdtm
Surfers cool looking?

Marvel did have some of the best designs. Juggernaut's a favorite, and he could look downright scary, with his hands drawn the size of some mutants bodies.. I didn't like a lot of heroes as a kid, but I liked the way Surfer looked.

I still really like MvC's rendition of Juggernaut.

Originally posted by -Pr-
When I was growing up (and this is the late 80s) my favourite characters were Cyclops, Colossus, Thor, Hulk and Dr. Doom. Lol before reaching teenage years. I loved Cyclops,Hulk and Gambit. This were the big 3 for me

Originally posted by -Pr-
As long as we can all agree that Cyclops is a ****, that's enough for me. http://www.troll.me/images2/cyclops-trolling/u-mad-bro-thumb.jpg

Originally posted by cdtm

I hate to say it, but pragmatically, Logan probably had the right idea.. damn straight he did, the phoenix arrival was unavoidable. even if he could go through with it, which he couldn't, the force might have simply ressurected hope.

if IM had fired his silly space gun at the phoenix with no x-men around, who knows who it would have bonded to. it would probably just take over a hand full of avengers and ultimately produce similar results.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Because he's had to.


And this is all the explanation needed.

With respect to your efforts, I've found arguing about war or the duties of a solider/citizen are about as constructive as arguing about religion. While I can respect arguments against a corrupt authority (Our slaughter of the Native Americans being one example), one either believes in respect for authority and the basic concept that, at the most basic level, one is obligated to serve their nation, leaving the morality to scholars and historians to sort out, or they don't.

It's an argument that belongs in politics, not here on Vs (In my respectful opinion, and not intended as a backseat mod statement. ^_^; )

I will say, killing does not = murder by default. Not any more then two boxers going at it = assault and battery...

Murder is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought ".

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/murder

Who exactly has Cap murdered?

Originally posted by Silent Master
Murder is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought ".

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/murder

Who exactly has Cap murdered?



Originally posted by curryman
He's a murderer.

He's battled for peace and justice while killing other soldiers. So much for the peace right?

Originally posted by curryman
Why did he have to?

No one forced him to go into war.

And the America he worshiped when he became Captain America? lmfao.

Ignoring the fact he just called a "lot" of people filthy murderers, many in my family included:

Killing other soldiers in war isn't murder.

Originally posted by cdtm
Killing other soldiers in war isn't murder.

Why not? Or are we saying that every kill while deployed counts as self-defence?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Why not? Or are we saying that every kill while deployed counts as self-defence?

So Cap slaughtered unarmed POW's?

Murder implies we're not talking about what normally happens in war: Soldiers killing other soldiers, that in turn are trying to kill you. Far as I know, Cap never targeted civilians or soldiers that already surrendered.

Originally posted by cdtm
So Cap slaughtered unarmed POW's?

Murder implies we're not talking about what normally happens in war: Soldiers killing other soldiers, that in turn are trying to kill you. Far as I know, Cap never wiped out civilians or soldiers that already surrendered.

I wasn't talking about POWs.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I wasn't talking about POWs.

Then what?

Who did he kill, that could be interpreted as murder (A war crime, basically.)

Originally posted by cdtm
Ignoring the fact he just called a "lot" of people filthy murderers, many in my family included:

Killing other soldiers in war isn't murder.
(not all of this is aimed at cdtm)
I have plenty of friends and family in the military and they all say it's murder. No matter what. When one of their friends are shot dead it's murder.. When they shoot back and kill the enemy it's murder. Heck even killing in self defense is murder. The guy is dead. You killed him. Murder. It's all just murder. When my cousin runs down kids with his big ol military vehicle because they are used by the enemy, it's murder. When someone else doesn't hit the kid and that person ends up crashing/blown up and his friends are slowly gunned down.. It's murder. All. Murder. Not being judgmental btw.

Cap has murdered people, but he is a soldier and most of it was WWII so it falls into the commonly accepted idea that it's 'okay'
Being a murderer, killing for your beliefs or to protect people or whatever doesn't nullify a persons capacity for peace or want/need of said peace. If anything depending on the person and if they were traumatized or not it can be argued that a person (soldier or not) who has suffered from war and had to kill to survive (as civilian or solder) have a deeper understanding for the necessity of peace. Not saying it makes him a better diplomat but still.

Originally posted by SevenShackles
(not all of this is aimed at cdtm)
I have plenty of friends and family in the military and they all say it's murder. No matter what. When one of their friends are shot dead it's murder.. When they shoot back and kill the enemy it's murder. Heck even killing in self defense is murder. The guy is dead. You killed him. Murder. It's all just murder. When my cousin runs down kids with his big ol military vehicle because they are used by the enemy, it's murder. When someone else doesn't hit the kid and that person ends up crashing/blown up and his friends are slowly gunned down.. It's murder. All. Murder. Not being judgmental btw.

Cap has murdered people, but he is a soldier and most of it was WWII so it falls into the commonly accepted idea that it's 'okay'
Being a murderer, killing for your beliefs or to protect people or whatever doesn't nullify a persons capacity for peace or want/need of said peace. If anything depending on the person and if they were traumatized or not it can be argued that a person (soldier or not) who has suffered from war and had to kill to survive (as civilian or solder) have a deeper understanding for the necessity of peace. Not saying it makes him a better diplomat but still.

I like this explanation.

My main thing, is curryman looking down his nose as Cap, as if he was some sort of monster, because he killed in wartime..

Speaking as someone that served in the military and who has family currently serving.

There is a rather large difference between killing and murder.

Captain America. I'm sorry but Charles can sometimes be written as a creepy mind rapist.

Originally posted by SamZED
Prof X obviously. He's a great dyplomat. So is Steve but unlike Xavier he's also a symbol and thats the problem. He cant represent Earth. Don't take it the wrong way but America isn't exactly everyone's favorite country, so a guy with American symbol on his chest teaching everyone how to live and what to do will not be appreciated by many.

No offense, but you're silly if you think Captain America can't represent Earth because he's a symbol for America. Everyone respects Captain America bro. It might as well be PIS.

"On Olympus, we measure wisdom against Athena...speed against Hermes...power against Zeus. But we measure courage...against Captain America."

Originally posted by TheHulk
If Earth had to choose a official diplomat for life,and he must be top notch at peace making and arguing for diplomacy. Who would it be between Captain America or Professor X.

A major symbol? or a bald wise man? Which is better? I'll take the Captain.

Originally posted by cdtm
Then what?

Who did he kill, that could be interpreted as murder (A war crime, basically.)

I'm talking about enemy combatants. Enemy soldiers. Nazis.

When cap killed them during the war, what do we classify it as? Soldiercide?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
No offense, but you're silly if you think Captain America can't represent Earth because he's a symbol for America. Everyone respects Captain America bro. It might as well be PIS.

"On Olympus, we measure wisdom against Athena...speed against Hermes...power against Zeus. But we measure courage...against Captain America."

Are we looking to send the most courageous man as a diplomat?

I see no point in this.

Originally posted by cdtm
one either believes in respect for authority and the basic concept that, at the most basic level, one is obligated to serve their nation, leaving the morality to scholars and historians to sort out, or they don't.
No. A basic belief in government authority does not entail one is exempt from the morality of one's actions or bound to obedience regardless of what the orders might be. Moreover, people who refuse specific orders, miltary deployment or conscription on moral grounds do not necessarily oppose the notion of government authority in principle.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
No offense, but you're silly if you think Captain America can't represent Earth because he's a symbol for America. Everyone respects Captain America bro. It might as well be PIS.

"On Olympus, we measure wisdom against Athena...speed against Hermes...power against Zeus. But we measure courage...against Captain America." hum and who said that?

In fact, isn't it now not a legal defence to say "I was only following orders"?

it very well should be

Originally posted by 753
it very well should be

In the American military, I've heard that it's an actual rule now.

Originally posted by 753
No. A basic belief in government authority does not entail one is exempt from the morality of one's actions or bound to obedience regardless of what the orders might be. Moreover, people who refuse specific orders, miltary deployment or conscription on moral grounds do not necessarily oppose the notion of government authority in principle.

No sir, basic belief in authority does NOT entail ignoring morality. Basic human rights apply in all circumstances, and NO ONE has the authority to overide those.

But if you read the back and forth, it looks like there's a problem with the functions of military service in general..

Originally posted by -Pr-
In fact, isn't it now not a legal defence to say "I was only following orders"?
I got out in 2011, but at the time you have the right to disobey any unlawful commands

You would face court martial, but you can defend against that much better than if you commit.

Also enemy combatants are labeled as "collateral damage'" so they aren't considered murdered unless there are mitigating circumstances.(ie. Torture, unnecessary force.)

So legally no soldier killings are not usually considered murder, but morally/Religiously it is open to debate.