Mace Windu and Darth Tyranus vs Hero of Tython and Emperor Vitiate

SIDIOUS 66

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, but the did not totally resist it. Warren and Leeha were struck and stunned by it and the HoT and Tol Braga were both pushed back. You can even see electricity dance around the HoT from where they were failing to contain it properly. Then his second attack just shreds through and takes them all out.

I didn't say they successfully resisted it, but it did take some effort and two attacks for Vitiate to overpower all of them. I'm not saying that it wasn't an impressive feat, or that the dark prophets are as good as the strike team. But the fact that Palpatine reduced the prophets to skeletons, using only one, is at least comparable, IMO, considering it took Palpatine no effort at all, and did more damage with a single attack.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Those prophets were likely fodder and were not actively resisting it. The Strike Team Vitiate beat were independently confirmed by 2 sources to be the strongest Jedi in the galaxy.

While they were not expecting an attack from Palpatine, I doubt their force defenses were lowered, as Vader was about to attack them. Also the prophets were practitioners of sith alchemy, which is said to require a powerful dark side user to master.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I've never heard anything about sith spawn being especially durable, and I doubt it was a sith spawn. You can fight a Sith Spawn in TOR and it looks like a taranterek, not a big worm.

According to Wookieepedia, a sith spawn is just a creature that is altered by the dark side, which would logically make them more durable, IMO. Not all sith spawn are the same. The Essential To The Force speaks of living beings that are altered and reshaped into mutants, which Sidious refers to as monsters in his Dark Side Compendium, which I assume is the same thing as a sith spawn

Regardless, the thing was huge, and Palpatine scorched the entire thing to ash.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda was taken by surprise both times.

How was Yoda taken by surprise the second time? He had his saber gripped with both hands, and knew Palpatine had no lightsaber to defend himself with. So what other way did Yoda expect Palpatine to defend himself with? He wasn't taken by surprise. Palpatine's lightning was just too strong for Yoda to defend against with his saber.

And I don't believe Yoda was taken by surprise the first time either; he knew he was facing a sith lord. I just think Yoda underestimated Sidious' lightning the first time. He did put up one hand, seemingly trying to block it, but failed, and was knocked unconscious from a single blast.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan and the HoT resisting him only proves that they are strong, not that he is weak

Or it proves that Palpatine's lightning is stronger. What strength feats do they have to suggest they are as strong as Yoda, who has overpowered Sidious in a saber lock--the same Sidious who managed to push back Savage with one arm--the same Savage who ragdolled numerous strong force users through sheer strength.

Palpatine's lightning has also melted Vader's mask. If you rewatch the scene where Luke removed Vader's mask, the mask looked deformed and melted. And Vader's mask and armor are altered by the dark side to make it more durable.

Intrepid37

Sidious lightning killed Vader quite fast. Vader has tanked lightning from Marek who's done this:

Seeking to stun the beast, the apprentice drew on all the power of the Force and sent a sizzling blast of Sith lightning into the un-armored roof of the creature's mouth.

Every neuron in the bull rancor's brain lit up like a firework. The following seconds were among the worst the apprentice had ever experienced. The bull rancor's convulsions were wild and prolonged. He clung on for dear life, half drowning in blood and half choked by the foul air, with arms and legs bracing him firmly against the heaving, fleshy walls.

-TFU I

A stream of Sith lightning put the AT-AT itself out of action, and a good, solid shove tipped it over with a crash, providing cover for the Wookiees when the time came to cross.

The quartet had already started firing at stormtroopers converging on the scene. A furious exchange of blasterfire painted the air thick with energy. The apprentice deflected anything headed his way as he hacked into the side of the AT-AT and dropped into its munitions bay. The crew within was no threat, killed by the lightning, but he was careful not to knock any of the charges in case their contents had become unstable. He didn't want it to blow up just yet.

-TFU I

Nephthys

^^^ I've always seen that as merely idiocy on the part of the Force Unleashed team than anything else. Sidious himself refers to Vader's suit as possessing 'delicate electrical systems'. Vader shouldn't be able to just tank lightning like that.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I didn't say they successfully resisted it, but it did take some effort and two attacks for Vitiate to overpower all of them. I'm not saying that it wasn't an impressive feat, or that the dark prophets are as good as the strike team. But the fact that Palpatine reduced the prophets to skeletons, using only one, is at least comparable, IMO, considering it took Palpatine no effort at all, and did more damage with a single attack.

Well I disagree. I don't see it as comparable at all.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
While they were not expecting an attack from Palpatine, I doubt their force defenses were lowered, as Vader was about to attack them. Also the prophets were practitioners of sith alchemy, which is said to require a powerful dark side user to master.

How was Vader about to attacks them? And is there anything indicating that they were even taught in force defenses if they were merely alchemists? Finally, that quote doesn't apply to them unless you have some proof that they 'mastered' it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
According to Wookieepedia, a sith spawn is just a creature that is altered by the dark side, which would logically make them more durable, IMO. Not all sith spawn are the same. The Essential To The Force speaks of living beings that are altered and reshaped into mutants, which Sidious refers to as monsters in his Dark Side Compendium, which I assume is the same thing as a sith spawn

Regardless, the thing was huge, and Palpatine scorched the entire thing to ash.

And was that creature altered by the darkside? And I don't really agree that it would be more durable if it was. We don't know what that thing was nor what Sidious did or did not do to it.

True, but it was also a worm, and therefore is built for flexibility over durability.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
How was Yoda taken by surprise the second time? He had his saber gripped with both hands, and knew Palpatine had no lightsaber to defend himself with. So what other way did Yoda expect Palpatine to defend himself with? He wasn't taken by surprise. Palpatine's lightning was just too strong for Yoda to defend against with his saber.

Yoda being surprised is the only way that scene makes any sense since he then managed to block it with his bare hands, which is much harder to do than with a lightsaber.

The only other explanation is that.... its a plot hole. Same with how in the script Yoda disarms Sidious...... and then just jumps away instead of capitalising on his advantage. Maybe we can chalk it up to Lucas' incompetence.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And I don't believe Yoda was taken by surprise the first time either; he knew he was facing a sith lord. I just think Yoda underestimated Sidious' lightning the first time. He did put up one hand, seemingly trying to block it, but failed, and was knocked unconscious from a single blast.

He raised his hand, but it seemed to me to be more as an unconscious 'oh shit' motion than an actual attempt at defense. And again Yoda blocked Sidious' lighning in a later scene with his hands. Him being surprised is the only explanation for why he could do that there and not at the start.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Or it proves that Palpatine's lightning is stronger. What strength feats do they have to suggest they are as strong as Yoda, who has overpowered Sidious in a saber lock--the same Sidious who managed to push back Savage with one arm--the same Savage who ragdolled numerous strong force users through sheer strength.

Well I meant in terms of Force strength and proficiency in absorbing/blocking attacks. Remember how easily Revan handled Nyriss' very impressive attack for instance. He was obviously very capable at that sort of thing. Him being able to block Vitiates attacks is hardly a mark against him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Palpatine's lightning has also melted Vader's mask. If you rewatch the scene where Luke removed Vader's mask, the mask looked deformed and melted. And Vader's mask and armor are altered by the dark side to make it more durable.

I'm not seeing it. :I

SIDIOUS 66

Originally posted by Nephthys
I've always seen that as merely idiocy on the part of the Force Unleashed team than anything else. Sidious himself refers to Vader's suit as possessing 'delicate electrical systems'. Vader shouldn't be able to just tank lightning like that.

Vader's "delicate electrical systems" is underneath the armor. And Palpatine was explaining what his lightning can do to Vader, and Marek is no Palpatine, obviously.

Are you suggesting that we dismiss Vader's feat of tanking Marek's lightning?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well I disagree. I don't see it as comparable at all.

Vitiate required some effort and two attacks in order to successfully overpower the strike team. Palpatine effortlessly reduced three dark prophets to skeleton with a single attack, using only one hand. Maybe the prophets are not as good as the jedi strike team, but the ease in which Palpatine killed them with his lightning, and the damage he caused, is arguably comparable. There is no way you can say one feat is miles ahead of the other. And you suggested that Vitiate has the greatest lightning, which is arguable, is all I'm saying. I'm more impressed with Palpatine's.

Originally posted by Nephthys
How was Vader about to attacks them?

Vader only questions them and threatens them for using Maul against him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And is there anything indicating that they were even taught in force defenses if they were merely alchemists?

Why wouldn't they be taught in force defense (which is one of the most basic applications of the force)? Prophets of the dark side were originally a sith sect formed by Darth Millennial. And they were obviously the ones who trained the cloned Maul in the ways of the force. Palpatine also entrusted the prophets of the dark side with the training of his dark side adepts.

BTW, how powerful were the jedi on the strike team? Were they said to be the strongest (force-wise), or just the order's best? Can you give the quote if you have time? I remember you posted the quote before but I don't remember it exactly word for word.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Finally, that quote doesn't apply to them unless you have some proof that they 'mastered' it.

I concede this part, I'm not entirely sure if they were alchemists.

Originally posted by Nephthys
We don't know what that thing was nor what Sidious did or did not do to it.

True, but we know the creature busted through Sidious sith crystal, completely destroying it. The monster was obviously pretty durable, and huge, and yet Palpatine reduced it to almost nothing.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda being surprised is the only way that scene makes any sense since he then managed to block it with his bare hands, which is much harder to do than with a lightsaber.

That's not true. It depends on what you're stronger at. Obviously Yoda, despite being a physical beast when enhanced with the force, lacked the strength to hold on to his saber, whereas he did not lack the strength and mastery in the force to absorb Sidious lightning.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The only other explanation is that.... its a plot hole. Same with how in the script Yoda disarms Sidious...... and then just jumps away instead of capitalising on his advantage.

What advantage did Yoda have to capitalize on? Yoda jumped away because obviously he felt threatened by Sidious's lightning.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He raised his hand, but it seemed to me to be more as an unconscious 'oh shit' motion than an actual attempt at defense. And again Yoda blocked Sidious' lighning in a later scene with his hands. Him being surprised is the only explanation for why he could do that there and not at the start.

Or a better explanation is because Yoda used both hands then, but only used one at the start.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well I meant in terms of Force strength and proficiency in absorbing/blocking attacks. Remember how easily Revan handled Nyriss' very impressive attack for instance. He was obviously very capable at that sort of thing. Him being able to block Vitiates attacks is hardly a mark against him.

My point is, Sidious was able to rip Yoda's lightsaber completely out of his hands, and nearly overwhelmed Windu's defenses while pretending to lose his powers, whereas both Revan and HoT were more than capable of handling Vitiate's lightning with their sabers (HoT did so while on a dark side nexus, which dimishes a lightsiders powers), which, IMO, suggests Palpatine's lightning is stronger than Vitiate's, especially considering that Yoda is possibly one of the most physically strongest force users in the mythos.

And the fact that Yoda managed to handle and redirect Palpatine's lightning, also suggests that his mastery in absorbing lightning is greater than Revan's

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not seeing it. :I

http://youtu.be/UazvNpUthKY

The top part of Vader's helmet that overaches his mask is visually melted down.

Nephthys

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader's "delicate electrical systems" is underneath the armor. And Palpatine was explaining what his lightning can do to Vader, and Marek is no Palpatine, obviously.

Are you suggesting that we dismiss Vader's feat of tanking Marek's lightning?

Except for the box on his chest that regulates his life-support systems. :I This was specifically brought up in Rise of Darth Vader because Vaders style is partially built around protecting that box and its pretty damn vulnerable.

No, just that its ****ing stupid.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
BTW, how powerful were the jedi on the strike team? Were they said to be the strongest (force-wise), or just the order's best? Can you give the quote if you have time? I remember you posted the quote before but I don't remember it exactly word for word.

One quote says that they were the 'most powerful' Jedi and the other says they were the 'strongest, most resolute' jedi.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
http://youtu.be/UazvNpUthKY

The top part of Vader's helmet that overaches his mask is visually melted down.

No, I really can't see that.

I might be able to answer the rest tomorrow, but no promises. I am working.

Based

Team 1: 6/10 if there's no mind domination.

S_W_LeGenD

Team 2 easily.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Based
Team 1: 6/10 if there's no mind domination.

The Emperor has never been shown to dominate people of Dooku and Windu's calibre. You could convince me he could mind dominate people like Kit Fisto and even powerful Telepaths like Saesee Tiin, but certainly not Mace Windu and Count Dooku, who if the Emperor tried that on could either.
1. Skewer him
2. Put his excellency on his ass.

Nephthys

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vitiate required some effort and two attacks in order to successfully overpower the strike team. Palpatine effortlessly reduced three dark prophets to skeleton with a single attack, using only one hand. Maybe the prophets are not as good as the jedi strike team, but the ease in which Palpatine killed them with his lightning, and the damage he caused, is arguably comparable. There is no way you can say one feat is miles ahead of the other. And you suggested that Vitiate has the greatest lightning, which is arguable, is all I'm saying. I'm more impressed with Palpatine's.

A Strike Team made up of the strongest Jedi in the galaxy who were actively resisting Vitiate vs 3 acolytes of unknown strength who were taken by surprise with no indication they resisted. Don't get me wrong, its impressive that he managed to char 3 people to mere skeletons, definately top-tier, but it can't be compared to Vitiates feat since theres no indication of resistance. Without it, they're just ordinary people, and would be affected by it in the same way as anyone else. I see Vitiates feat as on another level because he actually overpowered four of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy at once. Palpatine merely killed 3 people.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader only questions them and threatens them for using Maul against him.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3ryg1PsPo1qg9lqlo1_1280.png

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Why wouldn't they be taught in force defense (which is one of the most basic applications of the force)? Prophets of the dark side were originally a sith sect formed by Darth Millennial. And they were obviously the ones who trained the cloned Maul in the ways of the force. Palpatine also entrusted the prophets of the dark side with the training of his dark side adepts.

I conceed this point. I wasn't aware that they had actually trained other Force users like Jerec, so they most likely were versed in defensive techniques. When you termed them as alchemists I assumed them to just be that. However, I still stand by my point that theres no evidence suggesting they had any resistance raised and that even if they did, that theres nothing indicating that it could be applied to Sidious' attack, which was a surprise. As far as I know, Force defenses are not omnidirectional.

Although if Maul was cloned, I doubt he'd need training. The Starkiller clones didn't seem to require it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
True, but we know the creature busted through Sidious sith crystal, completely destroying it. The monster was obviously pretty durable, and huge, and yet Palpatine reduced it to almost nothing.

The crystal didn't seem to be very thick. Like thin glass at best. Plus it did have huge tubes sticking out of it. I doubt breaking it is much proof for durability. I'm not denying that reducing it to ash is not impressive, but not on Vitiates level IMO.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That's not true. It depends on what you're stronger at. Obviously Yoda, despite being a physical beast when enhanced with the force, lacked the strength to hold on to his saber, whereas he did not lack the strength and mastery in the force to absorb Sidious lightning.

Er no. Absorbing the lightning with your hands still obviously has the same impact that absorbing it with a lightsaber does. Theres still physical force being applied, as shown by Yoda taking a step back and being pushed back by Sidious' lightning when he was absorbing it. His arm is also pushed back by Dooku's in AotC.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What advantage did Yoda have to capitalize on? Yoda jumped away because obviously he felt threatened by Sidious's lightning.

Patently false, as he wasn't afraid to attack him later, in a worse situation. Here is the exerpt from the script:

'YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

YODA: Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.

YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod. PALPATINE reaches out with one hand, and a Senate pod is released from its mooring and heads toward the Podium. PALPATINE uses the Force to hurl pod after pod at YODA, who ducks and jumps from one flying pod to another.'

Yoda was pushing his lightning back and still had his lightsaber. He had every advantage to capitalise on. Him leaping away is utter stupidity, likely why Lucas chose not to put it in the movie.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Or a better explanation is because Yoda used both hands then, but only used one at the start.

But that makes no sense. If he was 'underestimating' Sidious, then why does he look like he just shat his pants when Sidious attacks him. Theres a clear look of fear on his face. And since he was afraid, why only lift one hand? Both are on his cane, in the exact same place, it would be just as easy to lift both as it would one and if it is more effective with 2 hands as you're implying, why not do it? Yoda isn't some cocky *******, he knows that the fate of the galaxy rests on this fight and that Sidious has just murdered the entire Jedi Order. Theres no reason for him to be so arrogant. Furthermore, there is absolutely no evidence that he did try to block it. There is no mention or hint of it in the script, the book or the movie. What you're suggesting is only speculation.

And if this is the case..... then I fail to see whats so impressive about overwhelming a Yoda only using one hand, who was underestimating his opponent. erm

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
My point is, Sidious was able to rip Yoda's lightsaber completely out of his hands, and nearly overwhelmed Windu's defenses while pretending to lose his powers, whereas both Revan and HoT were more than capable of handling Vitiate's lightning with their sabers (HoT did so while on a dark side nexus, which dimishes a lightsiders powers), which, IMO, suggests Palpatine's lightning is stronger than Vitiate's, especially considering that Yoda is possibly one of the most physically strongest force users in the mythos.

And I believe that I've debunked your point quite thoroughly.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And the fact that Yoda managed to handle and redirect Palpatine's lightning, also suggests that his mastery in absorbing lightning is greater than Revan's

Only if we say that Sidious' lightning is greater or equal to Vitiates. Which it isn't. Plus Yoda only barely did so.

The_Tempest

ermm

I can't speak for anyone else, but I know for a fact that I exhaustively demonstrated multiple times, using direct quotes from the relevant source material, that Revan and Malak were being led into a trap and that there is no evidence of Vitiate mindfvcking two prepared Force users on the fly in a combat scenario.

Unless new evidence has been offered rebutting that, anything suggesting otherwise is false.

Nephthys

He uses the technique in Revan. Theres nothing indicating that it requires prep time or that it can't be used in battle.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Nephthys
He uses the technique in Revan.

Which is stated by the text to require time and effort. It's clearly not a matter of snapping one's fingers.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres nothing indicating that it requires prep time or that it can't be used in battle.

He can attempt to use it in combat, sure. Just as Sidious can attempt to use a Force Storm in combat or a Jedi Knight can attempt to use Battle Meditation. But axel is perfectly right in arguing that Dooku and Mace are quick and powerful enough to retaliate before the attempt comes close to success.

The_Tempest

I sense that this will ultimately lead down the dark, windy path to my ignore function, but it is my duty to provide the consummate refrain:

1. The encyclopedia was written entirely in-universe, it is subject to the same faults and failures as other in-universe contributions
2. Hyperbolic descriptions notwithstanding, divine entities are not likely to be telepathically manipulated, physically frustrated, and ignominiously defeated & killed

S_W_LeGenD

Majority of the Star Wars sources represent in-universe perspective of events in the lore, correct me if I am wrong here.

Revan's own admission:

"We underestimated his power. When we confronted him, he didn't even have to fight us. Instead, he broke our wills. He dominated our minds, turning us into puppets to do his bidding." (SWTOR: Revan)

SWTORE expands on this event and reveals that Vitiate didn't had to exert much to break both Revan and Malak simultaneously.

If their is a contradicting or alternative description of this event then it shall be presented.

The_Tempest

There is no contradiction with Revan's account, but then I didn't claim as much. My issue stems from the fact that the encyclopedia teems with hyperbolic and prosaic descriptions.

But let's ignore the fact that Vitiate had to divert much of his strength to try to enthrall Revan the second time around and assume the encyclopedia is being literal:

1. Revan and Malak were already teetering on the precipice of the dark side
2. Vitiate orchestrated the trap that ensnared them, enabling him opportunity to gather his energies in preparation
3. Dromund Kaas is a dark side nexus and would logically bolster Vitiate's efforts

There is no reason to conclude Vitiate would replicate that context-specific victory against these two opponents.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by The_Tempest
My issue stems from the fact that the encyclopedia teems with hyperbolic and prosaic descriptions.
This is common occurrence within Star Wars literature.

Hyperbolic descriptions are not to be taken literally but their "intended message" is important.

This is the only hyperbolic statement within the information cited from page 88 of SWTORE, as per my understanding: "a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side."

Vitiate wasn't omnipotent but he certainly represented an avatar of the dark side.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

1. Revan and Malak were already teetering on the precipice of the dark side
2. Vitiate orchestrated the trap that ensnared them, enabling him opportunity to gather his energies in preparation
3. Dromund Kaas is a dark side nexus and would logically bolster Vitiate's efforts

There is no reason to conclude Vitiate would replicate that context-specific victory against these two opponents.
Vitiate subdued the Jedi Strike Team led by Tol Braga in a neutral setting (a space station).

Here is a description of this event:

"The Emperor is more than a man - he is the living embodiment of the dark side. Armed with incalculable powers of corruption, the Emperor easily defeats the Knight, Master Braga, and their fellow Jedi, twisting them all to the dark side." (SWTORE, Page 92)

Remember that "powerful energy" which Vitiate gathered in his hands during this confrontation? When Vitiate unleashed this energy, it swiftly broke the entire strike team. Afterwards, Vitiate triumphantly gloated that all of the fallen Jedi are now his weapons, servants and slaves.

axel_jovan

@ Legend,
while I admire your undying zeal to argue for KOTOR-era, I do not find your methodology to be sound at all. erm

No debate for us, sorry.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by axel_jovan
@ Legend,
while I admire your undying zeal to argue for KOTOR-era, I do not find your methodology to be sound at all. erm

No debate for us, sorry.
Your concession is accepted.

axel_jovan

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Your concession is accepted.
...
facepalm

Nephthys

I think enough has been provided to prove that the Dark Council members are an impressive bunch, and the feat is more that he fought the guy for several days.

Do you have evidence that he wouldn't?

The dark side yes. Mental domination? Lol no.

Did I use it as such?

Yes.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think enough has been provided to prove that the Dark Council members are an impressive bunch, and the feat is more that he fought the guy for several days.

And you randomly assign that to Mace and Dooku levels? Why not Bane and Sidious?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Do you have evidence that he wouldn't?

Because I have to prove a negative now?

Originally posted by Nephthys
The dark side yes. Mental domination? Lol no.

Because it's unreasonable to think that morally-conflicted Jedi Knights on the precipice of the dark side wouldn't be on their psychic A-game on a world that "bristles" with the dark side?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Did I use it as such?

Yup

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes.

Right, because that's fair. thumb up

SIDIOUS 66

Originally posted by Nephthys
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3ryg1PsPo1qg9lqlo1_1280.png

Actually, no. The facial expression didn't match. Use a different picture.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I conceed this point. I wasn't aware that they had actually trained other Force users like Jerec, so they most likely were versed in defensive techniques. When you termed them as alchemists I assumed them to just be that. However, I still stand by my point that theres no evidence suggesting they had any resistance raised and that even if they did, that theres nothing indicating that it could be applied to Sidious' attack, which was a surprise. As far as I know, Force defenses are not omnidirectional.

And as far as I know, a force user can shield their entire body with a force aura when prepared for battle (I believe Luke mentioned something like that when he went to engage force sensitive stormtroopers in DE). And logically, the prophets would have put up a defense if they were expecting to defend themselves from an angry Vader.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Er no. Absorbing the lightning with your hands still obviously has the same impact that absorbing it with a lightsaber does. Theres still physical force being applied, as shown by Yoda taking a step back and being pushed back by Sidious' lightning when he was absorbing it. His arm is also pushed back by Dooku's in AotC.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Are you suggesting that since Sidious blasted Yoda's lightsaber out of his hands, that his lightning should have also blasted Yoda's arm off?

And, no; absorbing lightning with your hands, if you're a master at it, would likely reduce some of the affects of lightning, as you are actually absorbing the lightning, not merely containing it as you would be with a saber.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Patently false, as he wasn't afraid to attack him later, in a worse situation. Here is the exerpt from the script:

'YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

YODA: Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.

YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod. PALPATINE reaches out with one hand, and a Senate pod is released from its mooring and heads toward the Podium. PALPATINE uses the Force to hurl pod after pod at YODA, who ducks and jumps from one flying pod to another.'

Yoda was pushing his lightning back and still had his lightsaber. He had every advantage to capitalise on. Him leaping away is utter stupidity, likely why Lucas chose not to put it in the movie.

It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed?

Obviously, Yoda didn't feel as if he could have continued containing Sidious lightning any further, otherwise he wouldn't have leaped away. I'd say that is the reason he did leaped away, especially seeing how moments later, Sidious managed to blast his saber right out of his hands.

But you're right: that part didn't make it to the movie, however, the part where Sidious blasted Yoda's lightsaber right out of his hands did make it. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. And there's no way you can argue that Sidious lightning caught Yoda by surprise, and to even assume it, is rather silly for reasons I explained earlier in the thread.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But that makes no sense. If he was 'underestimating' Sidious, then why does he look like he just shat his pants when Sidious attacks him. Theres a clear look of fear on his face. And since he was afraid, why only lift one hand? Both are on his cane, in the exact same place, it would be just as easy to lift both as it would one and if it is more effective with 2 hands as you're implying, why not do it? Yoda isn't some cocky *******, he knows that the fate of the galaxy rests on this fight and that Sidious has just murdered the entire Jedi Order. Theres no reason for him to be so arrogant. Furthermore, there is absolutely no evidence that he did try to block it. There is no mention or hint of it in the script, the book or the movie. What you're suggesting is only speculation.

You're suggesting that it would be stupid of Yoda for underestimating Sidious lightning when the fate of the galaxy rests on this fight, but then you turn around and suggest that Yoda went their with absolutely no defense up, and wasn't expecting an attack from Sidious? Somehow, I think the latter makes Yoda look more stupid, and makes far less sense.

If Yoda was so scared of the incoming attack as you claim, then logically he would have put up some kind of force barrier/force defense/shield. Hell, logically, he would have had his force defense up the moment he walked in the room to face a sith lord.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And I believe that I've debunked your point quite thoroughly.

You haven't debunked it though. You're wanted me to ignore the fact that Sidious' lightning overpowered Yoda's saber defense just because it doesn't make sense to you (which I'm not seeing how it wouldn't make sense you).

Originally posted by Nephthys
Only if we say that Sidious' lightning is greater or equal to Vitiates. Which it isn't.

It's arguable, but my argument has more backing than yours.

If Palpatine can effortlessly reduce three dark prophets to charred bones with lightning, using only one hand (which suggests he wasn't giving it even half his best), kill Vader (when Vader has tanked SK's lightning, and has tanked powerful explosions), Ko'd one of the most powerful jedi with a single blast, and has reduced a giant sith worm to ash, then I'm almost certain that if Palpatine put as much effort in it as Vitiate did, and uses two attack, that Palpatine would also be capable of overpowering the jedi strike team, especially if he can blast Yoda's lightsaber right out of his hands, and nearly overpower Windu's saber defense while pretending to be weak, whereas Revan and HoT were more than capable of handling Vitiate's lightning with their sabers (HoT did so on a dark side nexus where a light siders powers are diminished, while a dark sider powers are greatly enhanced).

Vitiate and Palpatine are certainly rivals with lightning, but yeah I'm going with Sidious' lightning.

SIDIOUS 66

Well since I'm not in a long-term dabating mood at the moment, you can get to my post last.

Though, I'm not seeing what more you can say.

Nephthys

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And you randomly assign that to Mace and Dooku levels? Why not Bane and Sidious?

I'm being generous.

(How does anyone decide what level a feat puts the guy at? I'm only using my judgement here. If you disagree about it though I'd love to discuss why)

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because I have to prove a negative now?

No, you have to support your argument. I've provided evidence of Vitiates mental powers. If theres nothing countering it from your side then my argument wins. I'm just curious about why you seemed to imply that it was a stupid argument when theres nothing indicating that its not that case. Why do you think they wouldn't succumb like Scourge did?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because it's unreasonable to think that morally-conflicted Jedi Knights on the precipice of the dark side wouldn't be on their psychic A-game on a world that "bristles" with the dark side?

Got it in one. thumb up

So tell me, why would that affect their telepathic capabilities?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yup

No, I just mentioned that he's done it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Right, because that's fair. thumb up

Thanks, I do try to be sporting in these things.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If Palpatine can effortlessly reduce three dark prophets to charred bones with lightning, using only one hand (which suggests he wasn't giving it even half his best), kill Vader (when Vader has tanked SK's lightning, and has tanked powerful explosions), Ko'd one of the most powerful jedi with a single blast, and has reduced a giant sith worm to ash, then I'm almost certain that if Palpatine put as much effort in it as Vitiate did, and uses two attack, that Palpatine would also be capable of overpowering the jedi strike team, especially if he can blast Yoda's lightsaber right out of his hands, and nearly overpower Windu's saber defense while pretending to be weak, whereas Revan and HoT were more than capable of handling Vitiate's lightning with their sabers (HoT did so on a dark side nexus where a light siders powers are diminished, while a dark sider powers are greatly enhanced).

Vitiate and Palpatine are certainly rivals with lightning, but yeah I'm going with Sidious' lightning.
Nyriss's signature FL was potent enough to reduce even a Dooku level individual to a charred smoking husk or worse; Revan packed sufficient raw power to comfortably handle this level of threat. In contrast, Vitiate's FL abilities are on a whole new level; his signature FL was potent enough to destroy super-strong individuals.

To give you an idea:

Dooku's defensive abilities > Sith Acolytes, Sith Worm and vice versa. Therefore, Sidious utterly destroying the latter list with his FL abilities, is not a big deal for a Sith of his caliber. And Dooku himself doesn't stands a chance at tolerating signature FL of Nyriss; let alone Vitiate.

---

Available evidence suggests that Vitiate is unrivaled in FL abilities in the history of the Sith Order.

The_Tempest

I don't want to debate you. I thought we reached an understanding some months ago that if you can't conform to operating under a single set of standards, a debate would be utterly fruitless.

I'm merely pointing out that you are, as usual, crafting an argument that demands certain concessions and generosity from your opponent that you're unwilling to give him.

You mean you don't want to put Braga above Bane. Understandable, but Bane and Sidious have never been shown to fight an adversary for "days."

You've provided evidence that Vitiate possesses sufficient mental powers to cow Scourge. You did not adequately make your case as to how Vitiate will duplicate that against Mace and/or Dooku.

In times past, when your opponent has done as you have done, you called them out saying "Well X might have done this to Y, but Y isn't Z."

Read the full passage:

Over 300 years ago, the great Jedi heroes Revan and Malak stumbled upon the long-hidden Sith Empire's capital of Dromund Kaas, and its ruler - a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side. They argued briefly over whether to alert the Republic and Jedi Council, but Revan was already too consumed by arrogance and anger to consider the possibility of defeat. By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already at the precipice of the dark side. It took only a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War.

The context very clearly paints an elaborate picture: They were on the razor's edge by the time they got to Vitiate and so it took only a "fraction" of his powers to give them the final shove.

It is a recurring, consistent theme within the mythology that exposure to strong dark side sites often manifests in psychic temptation to harness that same power. We see it with Yoda and Whie in The Empire Strikes Back, we see it with Obi-Wan on Zigoola in Clone Wars: Wild Space, we see it with Atris and the Sith holocrons in KOTOR II, and so on.

That this would not be an environment in which morally conflicted Jedi would be at their mental and psychic peak is as obvious as it is reasonable; which is to say very.

Sidious can kill worlds unaided. How relevant is that against Bane? To you, it's not relevant at all. The same applies here. Explain how Vitiate's ambiguous purge of the Dark Council is relevant when confronted with Dooku or Mace.

You really don't. And that you despise it when I use your own tactics against you to illustrate how much of a nonstarter it is makes this enduring character deficit of yours even more bewildering.

S_W_LeGenD

Duplicate message.

The_Tempest

SWL, you posted that already.

S_W_LeGenD

Yeah, realized my mistake. Experiencing internet problems at my end.

Nephthys

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I don't want to debate you. I thought we reached an understanding some months ago that if you can't conform to operating under a single set of standards, a debate would be utterly fruitless.

Funny, you seem to be turning this into a debate. Just as you did on the last page. If you truly don't want to debate me, perhaps you shouldn't criticise my arguments or respond to my points?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm merely pointing out that you are, as usual, crafting an argument that demands certain concessions and generosity from your opponent that you're unwilling to give him.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/LeBron-James-Smallest-Violin-Gif.gif

I'm such an awful person. Thank you Tempest, thank you, for showing me the error of my ways. Pleas hold my tiny violin for me while I commit seppuku.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You mean you don't want to put Braga above Bane. Understandable, but Bane and Sidious have never been shown to fight an adversary for "days."

I don't care one way or the other. If you think the feat puts him up there then thats cool, I disagree, but you're welcome to your opinion.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You've provided evidence that Vitiate possesses sufficient mental powers to cow Scourge. You did not adequately make your case as to how Vitiate will duplicate that against Mace and/or Dooku.

In times past, when your opponent has done as you have done, you called them out saying "Well X might have done this to Y, but Y isn't Z."

I'm not sure whats 'adequate' for you, but pointing out an ability Vitiate possesses and then pointing out that there no evidence suggesting Dooku or Windu can resist it is pretty adequate in my books. Its like if you suggested Dooku would blitz Vitiate and my response was 'lol, you think he could do that do you?' without offering any reason why he couldn't. Would that be a valid argument for you. Because if so I'll just replace all my arguments from now on with unfounded scorn.

And then I offer reasons as to why it wouldn't work against Z. Or someone asks me why it wouldn't work against Z. Like I'm doing now.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Read the full passage:

Over 300 years ago, the great Jedi heroes Revan and Malak stumbled upon the long-hidden Sith Empire's capital of Dromund Kaas, and its ruler - a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side. They argued briefly over whether to alert the Republic and Jedi Council, but Revan was already too consumed by arrogance and anger to consider the possibility of defeat. By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already at the precipice of the dark side. It took only a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War.

The context very clearly paints an elaborate picture: They were on the razor's edge by the time they got to Vitiate and so it took only a "fraction" of his powers to give them the final shove.

Yes, to push them to the Darkside.

.... And how does that tie into his mentally dominating them?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It is a recurring, consistent theme within the mythology that exposure to strong dark side sites often manifests in psychic temptation to harness that same power. We see it with Yoda and Whie in The Empire Strikes Back, we see it with Obi-Wan on Zigoola in Clone Wars: Wild Space, we see it with Atris and the Sith holocrons in KOTOR II, and so on.

That this would not be an environment in which morally conflicted Jedi would be at their mental and psychic peak is as obvious as it is reasonable; which is to say very.

Yes, temptation to join the darkside. Not to become Vitiates mindslaves and conquer the galaxy for him.

I guess we're at an impasse at this point. I don't see falling to the darkside as evidence of mental vulnerability. If anything, Anakin seemed to become much more focused and sure of himself when he tapped into the darkside (in the CWC, against Dooku and when he attacked the Jedi temple), up until he lost his shit at the end. Also, if they truly were so steeped in the darkside, wouldn't a darkside nexus empower them?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sidious can kill worlds unaided. How relevant is that against Bane? To you, it's not relevant at all. The same applies here. Explain how Vitiate's ambiguous purge of the Dark Council is relevant when confronted with Dooku or Mace.

It isn't. You seem to have taken my idle boasting a bit too seriously.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You really don't. And that you despise it when I use your own tactics against you to illustrate how much of a nonstarter it is makes this enduring character deficit of yours even more bewildering.

No, I despise it when you act like an arrogant condescending prick and attempt to 'teach me the error of my ways' as if you're somehow better than me and your arguments are more valid. I've got nothing against you using underhanded tactics against me (Intellectually. I am sadly still human, and thus subject to frustration).

The_Tempest

ermm

You could always spare yourself the ensuing frustration and suffering by having an honest debate with people. Such an action would preclude me disciplining you.

As it is, your tacit confession of using "underhanded tactics" indicates that you're less interested in an honest, sporting debate than you are in wanking certain characters.

Nephthys

My confession is hardly tacit seeing as I've openly admitted it in the past. roll eyes (sarcastic)

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Nephthys
My confession is hardly tacit seeing as I've openly admitted it in the past. roll eyes (sarcastic)

http://nyobetabeat.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/markey_mark_wtf.gif

So you're not interested in honest debates and seek only to wank certain characters?

Nephthys

I don't wank certain characters. I don't even like Vitiate. He's a truly shit and unimaginative character. I just actually do think he's as powerful as I argue he is. Same with the other characters I tend to back.

Oh, but I am not a particularly honest person.

The_Tempest

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b187/hartonthenett/ONTD/2rqkozo.gif

Wow.

Glad to finally have that out in the open after all this goddamn time. uhuh

My sympathies with the poor schmuck who engages you next. thumb up

Nephthys

'All this time'? I've said this multiple times in the past, lol. Its not my fault you're too dumb to keep track.

The_Tempest

You admitted you were biased, Neph, but you never confessed to being a full on dishonest ****. They're worlds apart.

Why the hell would I, or anyone else in their right mind, for that matter, spend all this time arguing with you if we knew you were just going to deliberately twist and deceive to facilitate whatever agenda you happened to have at the time?

You cray, foo'.

Nephthys

For fun, duh.

Edit: Also, its not like I ever lie. That would be stupid.

Nephthys

Sidious, you seem to have missed out this part of my response:

Originally posted by Nephthys
Except for the box on his chest that regulates his life-support systems. :I This was specifically brought up in Rise of Darth Vader because Vaders style is partially built around protecting that box and its pretty damn vulnerable.

No, just that its ****ing stupid.

One quote says that they were the 'most powerful' Jedi and the other says they were the 'strongest, most resolute' jedi.

No, I really can't see that.

I might be able to answer the rest tomorrow, but no promises. I am working.

Or maybe you didn't feel like it was worth responding to but anyway.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And as far as I know, a force user can shield their entire body with a force aura when prepared for battle (I believe Luke mentioned something like that when he went to engage force sensitive stormtroopers in DE). And logically, the prophets would have put up a defense if they were expecting to defend themselves from an angry Vader.

I've no doubt that it can be used that way, but not always. See here:

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071128031619/starwars/images/thumb/3/32/ThonNomiBattle.jpg/200px-ThonNomiBattle.jpg

Jedi Master Thon using a force barrier that resembles, well, a big glowing barrier. I've also seen it described as a 'shimmering wall' etc. Or as completely invisible. There seems to be much variation in the technique.

You admitted that Vader just questioned and threatened them. I don't see why they would have raised a defense at that point if aggressions weren't actually imminent. So far you haven't proven that they were even likely to have raised one or that it would have affected Sidious' attack.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Are you suggesting that since Sidious blasted Yoda's lightsaber out of his hands, that his lightning should have also blasted Yoda's arm off?

And, no; absorbing lightning with your hands, if you're a master at it, would likely reduce some of the affects of lightning, as you are actually absorbing the lightning, not merely containing it as you would be with a saber.

I'm just pointing out that theres clearly still physical force applied in blocking it with your bare hands. And therefore the only real reason why Yoda couldn't keep hold of his lightsaber was that he was surprised. It makes no sense that he could accomplish the much harder task of blocking it with his hands (which is stated to be so difficult as to be 'nearly impossible'), but could perform the much easier task of blocking it with his lightsaber.

Thats the same thing. no expression

'Containing' it in a lightsaber blade is functionally the same as 'absorbing' it. In fact, its pretty much exactly the same. Hell, look at the Hope trailer and its obvious that absorbing something with your hands doesn't do shit to stop physical force, as there was so much applied to Malgus' lightsaber blade that it started to crack, and Satale was clearly straining to hold the blade back.

Furthermore, rewatch that fight in AotC. Dooku's lightning manages to force Yoda's arm back, yet Obi-Wan blocked it with his lightsaber with no strain at all. Despite the fact that according to you, Yoda is stronger than Obi-Wan. If anything I'd say that indicates that blocking it with a lightsaber reduces the force.

But of course, if you actually have some proof that it reduces the force as you say it does, show it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed?

Obviously, Yoda didn't feel as if he could have continued containing Sidious lightning any further, otherwise he wouldn't have leaped away. I'd say that is the reason he did leaped away, especially seeing how moments later, Sidious managed to blast his saber right out of his hands.

Don't be ridiculous. Not only was Yoda in the much better position of having his lightsaber, but the text notes exactly why it looks like Sidious was doomed; Yoda was successfully pushing his lightning back. He even offers a cocky boast that Sidious and his apprentice will be destroyed. You really think he'd be smacktalking if he felt threatened by Sidious' lightning?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But you're right: that part didn't make it to the movie, however, the part where Sidious blasted Yoda's lightsaber right out of his hands did make it. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. And there's no way you can argue that Sidious lightning caught Yoda by surprise, and to even assume it, is rather silly for reasons I explained earlier in the thread.

Thats funny, since I'm not only saying it (what now???) but I seem to be defending my point rather effectively.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You're suggesting that it would be stupid of Yoda for underestimating Sidious lightning when the fate of the galaxy rests on this fight, but then you turn around and suggest that Yoda went their with absolutely no defense up, and wasn't expecting an attack from Sidious? Somehow, I think the latter makes Yoda look more stupid, and makes far less sense.

If Yoda was so scared of the incoming attack as you claim, then logically he would have put up some kind of force barrier/force defense/shield. Hell, logically, he would have had his force defense up the moment he walked in the room to face a sith lord.

No, they're both just as stupid really. My theory* makes as much sense as yours does.

I also said that he was surprised by the incoming attack. He wasn't afraid until after the attack was launched, therefore your point holds no water. And if you're right that he wasn't taking Sidious seriously then that just means he wouldn't have his defenses up, would he?

Though really, all you can prove here is that Sidious overpowered a surprised and half-serious Yoda.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Sarcastic-Clap-Happy-Ending.gif

Well done.

* The term 'theory' here is important since we can neither prove nor disprove that he had a force barrier up. Since theres no actual evidence for or against it at all. This is all utter speculation. Really unless you can offer something good I'm inclined to dismiss the whole point.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You haven't debunked it though. You're wanted me to ignore the fact that Sidious' lightning overpowered Yoda's saber defense just because it doesn't make sense to you (which I'm not seeing how it wouldn't make sense you).

http://torontosportsmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/paying_attention.gif

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It's arguable, but my argument has more backing than yours.

Lol.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If Palpatine can effortlessly reduce three dark prophets to charred bones with lightning, using only one hand (which suggests he wasn't giving it even half his best),

Actually if you look at the comic you can see that he keeps using his lightning on them for quite some while he talks to Vader. That would suggest effort on his part to reduce them to that state. By contrast it only takes an instant for Nyriss to be reduced to ash and barely longer for her offhand lightning to reduce soldiers to smoking husks.

Anyway, still not on Vitiates level as there's no indication of resistance. And even if there was, they're still complete unknowns in terms of power and nowhere near the 4 strongest Jedi in the galaxy that Vitiate actually overpowered. And btw, as LeGeND pointed out Vitiate did so 'easily.' (SWTORE, Page 92)

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
kill Vader (when Vader has tanked SK's lightning, and has tanked powerful explosions),

Impressive.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Ko'd one of the most powerful jedi with a single blast,

Who was either surprised or half-serious. Woo.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
and has reduced a giant sith worm to ash,

Again, impressive. But not Vitiate impressive.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
then I'm almost certain that if Palpatine put as much effort in it as Vitiate did, and uses two attack, that Palpatine would also be capable of overpowering the jedi strike team

According to SWTORE, Vitiate defeated the Strike Team 'easily.' Do you still think Sidious could replicate that?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
especially if he can blast Yoda's lightsaber right out of his hands, and nearly overpower Windu's saber defense while pretending to be weak,

The Yoda one is debatable (obviously), but the fact remains they were just single Jedi. Sidious was overpowering 1 Jedi each time. And he didn't even legitimately overpower either imo. But still. Vitiate defeated four of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy, at the same time, by overwhelming them all, easily.

Yeah, Sidious is good, but not that good.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
whereas Revan and HoT were more than capable of handling Vitiate's lightning with their sabers (HoT did so on a dark side nexus where a light siders powers are diminished, while a dark sider powers are greatly enhanced).

Proving only that Revan and the HoT are amazing at blocking lightning. Nothing more.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/008/072/trixieyes_gif_by_workingorder-d4fw3x1.gif

SIDIOUS 66

Neph, my internet is trippin' right now, so I'll get back to you whenever. But, in the mean time, do you mind posting the video of Vitiate overpowering of the strike team?

Nephthys

bq5X3F3g69c

SIDIOUS 66

Neph, I will get back to you by either wednesday or thursday...or maybe friday.

S_W_LeGenD

Time to explain a bit about capabilities of HoT (Hero of Tython):

"You are immensely powerful." (Sith Emperor to HoT)

Defeated following noteworthy opponents in single combat:

01. Bengel Morr (Corrupted)

A powerful Jedi hero; survivor of Sacking of Coruscant event; defeated the battle-hardened Jedi Master Orgus Din in single combat.

02. Sith Lord Tarnis

Son of powerful Darth Angral; skilled swordsman (trained by the EXPERT swordsman Praven) with decent mastery of the Force.

04. Sith Lord Praven

EXPERT swordsman; superb warrior; defeated some of the greatest Jedi duelists in history.

05. Rakata entity (20,000 years old)

06. Darth Angral

One of the Empire's most celebrated warlords; very powerful in the Force; master swordsman; decent tactician; commander of Darth Malgus; slaughtered Orgus Din.

08. Emperor's Wrath

EXPERT swordsman; superb warrior; kill record of Sith and Jedi exceeding 1000.

09. Leehan Narez (Fallen)

One of the strongest Jedi of the Order

10. Warren Sedoru (Fallen)

One of the strongest Jedi of the Order; survived many near-death situations

11. Tol Braga (Fallen)

One of the strongest Jedi of the Order; defeated a Dark Councilar in single combat

12. Imperial Guard

Elite warriors

13. Voice of the Emperor

Avatar of the dark side; supremely powerful in the Force

------------

As per SWTORE, HoT handled impossible odds.

------------

HoT, by virtue of available evidence, is superior to both Dooku and Mace in skill and power. Probably in the league of Luke.

Nephthys

I'm pretty sure it was the actual Emperor they defeated, not his Voice.

The Hero also defeated Guardsman Lassicar, a member of the Imperial Guard who's defeated 'six Jedi and over two dozen Sith Lords who made the mistake of crossing the Emperor.'

The_Tempest

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Random%20Star%20Wars%20stuff/JediCouncilbestoforder_zps5e24ccf7.png

I thought you didn't lie. erm

Nephthys

I don't. I've never seen that before. Where is it from?

I do question it however, since it seems to be saying that Eeth Koth and the Jedi Council are Jedi Knights, which duh, they are not.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/Random%20Star%20Wars%20stuff/JediCouncilbestoforder_zps5e24ccf7.png

I thought you didn't lie. erm

I am curious about what you think about Coleman Trebor?

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't. I've never seen that before. Where is it from?

The words at the top left corner of the screenshot page say Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia.

So probably Cloak of Deception.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I do question it however, since it seems to be saying that Eeth Koth and the Jedi Council are Jedi Knights, which duh, they are not.

Actually, they are. "Jedi Knights" has been used as a generic term to apply to members of the Jedi Order. Obi-Wan used it with Luke in his infamous description of the order in ANH, the official website describes Dooku as a "former Jedi Knight who left the order," etc.

It's time to concede that point and move on.

Nephthys

No, I'm going to say that its invalid because of that. And then point out that it doesn't specifically say the Jedi Council are the best warriors in the Order.

But if this is true, does it mean that Trebor still sucks, or is Jango just really good?

Also Dooku technically is a former Jedi Knight. Because he became a Jedi Master. awepeach

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, I'm going to say that its invalid because of that. And then point out that it doesn't specifically say the Jedi Council are the best warriors in the Order.

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But if this is true, does it mean that Trebor still sucks, or is Jango just really good?

Or Trebor's good, so is Jango, and Jango was landed a great opportunity.

Nephthys

I was only half serious. And only half joking.

Thats what I meant. Either way this doesn't negatively impact my argument, just invalidates Axels because haha, Trebor was was one of the best in the Order suck it!

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Nephthys
I was only half serious. And only half joking.

Thats what I meant. Either way this doesn't negatively impact my argument, just invalidates Axels because haha, Trebor was was one of the best in the Order suck it!

It negatively impacts the part of your argument about the Jedi Council. You can stop trying to lowball the prime of the Jedi at anytime, bro. thumb up

Nephthys

No it doesn't since his point was that leading members of the Order can still suck, which would invalidate my point that being a Dark Council member is impressive, to which my response was that only leading Jedi can suck because they're more into wise leaders than strong. By invalidating my point you also invalidate his, meaning that I don't have to justify myself or defend against the Trebor implication. Its very simple really

So thanks for the help bro. I guess you really are objective in these things. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-smuggo.gif

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Nephthys
No it doesn't since his point was that leading members of the Order can still suck, which would invalidate my point that being a Dark Council member is impressive, to which my response was that only leading Jedi can suck because they're more into wise leaders than strong. By invalidating my point you also invalidate his, meaning that I don't have to justify myself or defend against the Trebor implication. Its very simple really

So thanks for the help bro. I guess you really are objective in these things. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-smuggo.gif

http://images.wikia.com/glee/images/4/4f/Cas-shake-head.gif

Your point was that the Jedi Council can be weaksauce members whereas the members of the Dark Council are harder than you around a copy of The Dark Knight. You were quite wrong. erm

Nephthys

Indeed.

But thanks to you it doesn't matter. I'm right by default.

Its the best kind of being right!

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Nephthys
Indeed.

But thanks to you it doesn't matter. I'm right by default.

You being right or wrong has nothing to do with me nor am I endorsing Jovan's particular point. (I think it's pretty dumb to assume that members of the leading bodies of the Jedi or Sith orders would not be warriors par excellence.)

You made an erroneous claim about the Jedi Council and I proved you wrong.

Accept your inevitable defeat.

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/363/5/8/damon__s_smirk_by_startist27-d35yhpz.gif

Nephthys

Ok.

If I'm wrong like this more often this thread is in the bag.

S_W_LeGenD

@The_Tempest

Neph is actually correct in his assertions:-

Dark Council is commonly populated by super-strong Sith because weak members don't survive; heck, sometimes super-strong members don't survive. In fact, to secure a seat in the Dark Council is a very difficult task because competition is cut-throat. But even in the Dark Council, different seats represent management of different tasks of the Empire. However, power struggles are natural in Sith doctrines.

Jedi Council operates in different manner; Council members are selected by other Council members and members aren't necessarily super-strong. Their is no cut-throat competition involved which would threaten the survival of a Council member in the Jedi Order.

The source which you cited is contradicted by depictions in GL-Canon.

The_Tempest

If the source contradicts G-canon, SWL, you've utterly failed to identify it. Try harder.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by The_Tempest
If the source contradicts G-canon, SWL, you've utterly failed to identify it. Try harder.
The movies...

The_Tempest

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The movies...

And nothing in the movies disproves that the Jedi Council represents the best warriors of the order.

DARTH POWER

I've always thought it can't be a coinincidence that the 2 leading members of the Jedi Council are also the 2 most powerful Jedi in the order. So the Council likely would be full of the most powerful Jedi.

The exceptional cases will be unorthodox Jedi like Qui-Gon, Dooku and Skywalker.

And it makes sense. It should be those most powerful in the Force leading the Order because they can see deeper into the force. Naturally those same Jedi will be amongst the most powerful Force wielding warriors as well.

Nephthys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Time to explain a bit about capabilities of HoT (Hero of Tython):

"You are immensely powerful." (Sith Emperor to HoT)

Defeated following noteworthy opponents in single combat:

01. Bengel Morr (Corrupted)

A powerful Jedi hero; survivor of Sacking of Coruscant event; defeated the battle-hardened Jedi Master Orgus Din in single combat.

02. Sith Lord Tarnis

Son of powerful Darth Angral; skilled swordsman (trained by the EXPERT swordsman Praven) with decent mastery of the Force.

04. Sith Lord Praven

EXPERT swordsman; superb warrior; defeated some of the greatest Jedi duelists in history.

05. Rakata entity (20,000 years old)

06. Darth Angral

One of the Empire's most celebrated warlords; very powerful in the Force; master swordsman; decent tactician; commander of Darth Malgus; slaughtered Orgus Din.

08. Emperor's Wrath

EXPERT swordsman; superb warrior; kill record of Sith and Jedi exceeding 1000.

09. Leehan Narez (Fallen)

One of the strongest Jedi of the Order

10. Warren Sedoru (Fallen)

One of the strongest Jedi of the Order; survived many near-death situations

11. Tol Braga (Fallen)

One of the strongest Jedi of the Order; defeated a Dark Councilar in single combat

12. Imperial Guard

Elite warriors

13. Voice of the Emperor

Avatar of the dark side; supremely powerful in the Force

------------

As per SWTORE, HoT handled impossible odds.

------------

HoT, by virtue of available evidence, is superior to both Dooku and Mace in skill and power. Probably in the league of Luke.

Furthermore, the Hero defeated Lord Fulminiss, one of the greatest Sith Sorcerers in the Empire, who is said to have once disintegrated an entire city with 'a raging storm of pure Force energy.'

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
Furthermore, the Hero defeated Lord Fulminiss, one of the greatest Sith Sorcerers in the Empire, who is said to have once disintegrated an entire city with 'a raging storm of pure Force energy.'
Superb!

Make a full list of HoT's accomplishments. This will put many arguments to rest.

You also mentioned a (Super) Imperial Guard individual who also have impressive record; put him in the list too.

Nephthys

Time to explain a bit about capabilities of HoT (Hero of Tython):

"You harness immensely power." (Sith Emperor to HoT)

Defeated following noteworthy opponents in single combat:

01. Bengel Morr (Corrupted)

A powerful Jedi hero; survivor of Sacking of Coruscant event; defeated the battle-hardened Jedi Master Orgus Din in single combat.

02. Sith Lord Tarnis

Son of powerful Darth Angral; skilled swordsman (trained by the EXPERT swordsman Praven) with decent mastery of the Force.

03. Lord Sadic

Noted to be highly powerful before he underwent the Power Gaurd programme, which transformed him from a slight man into a hulking cybernetic giant. Said to be the best of Angrals apprentices even before his upgrade.

04. Sith Lord Praven

EXPERT swordsman; superb warrior; defeated one of the Jedi's most duelists.

05. The Sand Demon

This thing hunts Krayt Dragons. no expression

Let that set in for a moment. Codex Entry.

06. Lord Nefarid

Its noted that he isn't very powerful in the Force despite the fact that hes pants-shittingly difficult in the game. Still, we see how immensely hard it is to prove yourself worthy of becoming a Sith Lord in the Inquisitor campaign, so he must be pretty good. Also he can become invisible and has a ****ing orbital death laser firing at you throughout the fight, which the Knight dodges several times.

07. Rakata entity (20,000 years old)

I don't remember this but ok.

08. Darth Angral

One of the Empire's most celebrated warlords; very powerful in the Force; master swordsman; decent tactician; commander of Darth Malgus; slaughtered Orgus Din. Lead the Sack of Coruscant, the most significant military attack in Imperial History. This lead to him being offered a place on the Dark Council, but he refused. So even as of Act 1 the Hero defeated a Dark Council-level opponent. After fighting through the Desolator to get to him.

09. Kira Carsen (possessed)

Kira is then possessed by the Emperor and you have to defeat her. While Kira is obviously not as powerful as the Hero, the Emperor is likely the most skilled and knowledgable Force User up to that point in galactic history, plus you'd just fought through a star destroyer and fought a Darth.

10. Pulled down pieces of the ceiling to collapse four tunnels which the Colicoids were using to enter a hospital, despite resistance from several dozen enemies.

.... pretty self-explanatory.

11. Emperor's Wrath

EXPERT swordsman; superb warrior; kill record of Sith and Jedi exceeding 1000. Even the Dark Council is afraid of him.

12. Leehan Narez (Fallen)

One of the strongest Jedi of the Order. You have to fight her stupid droids at the same time. She thinks she can make them feel the Force. She is dumb.

13. Warren Sedoru (Fallen)

One of the strongest Jedi of the Order; survived many near-death situations. Satale Shan credits him as the best infiltrator in the Order, as well as some other things which I've forgotten. Is said to have diminished Force Powers, yet still manages to overpower the Force hold the Hero of Tython had on a trooper and toss him aside and mindrape an admiral into revealing the Republic fleets defense codes. Implies that the Emperor boosted his power somehow. Also he's a douche who uses Forcequake. So he's a cheap piece of shit.

14. Guardsman Lassicar

A member of the Imperial Guard who's defeated 'six Jedi and over two dozen Sith Lords who made the mistake of crossing the Emperor.'

15. Ancient Terentatek

Much bigger than a regular terentatek, this thing was pretty damn big.

16. Lord Fulminiss

One of the greatest Sith Sorcerers in the Empire, who is said to have once disintegrated an entire city with 'a raging storm of pure Force energy.' Was able to drive even Sith Lords and Voss Mystics to gibbering madness and planned to use his power to drive the entire planet Voss insane. Dunno if that makes him a planetary-level Force-User but you have to admit its kind of crazy. http://www.drumchat.com/images/smilies/drumset-1.gif

15. The Gormak Guardian

Its ****ing enormous:

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/8/89/Gormak_Guardian.png

The Gormak by its leg is a good 8 feet tall. The Gormak Guardian is telepathic and a manifestation of Sel-Makor, radiating darkside energy and dominating the minds of the Gormak.

16. Blitzed 2 Sith Warriors

For clarity: You come up behind them after they've defeated Jedi Council member Kiwiiks and instead of just killing them from behind the Hero gives them time to react to them by activating their lightsaber, leaping straight over them and then cutting both of them down before they can do anything.

17. Blitzed 2 Sith Warriors (again)

This time they drop down from the ceiling behind the Hero in an ambush yet the Hero is still able to turn around and cut both down with a single slash each.

16. Tol Braga (Fallen)

One of the strongest Jedi of the Order; defeated a Dark Councilor in single combat after several days of fighting. The Hero can also dominate his mind, which is a really damn good feat.

17. Imperial Guard

Elite warriors, 'unmatched in martial skill' and able to contend with Jedi and Sith. The Knight fights through them to get to the Emperor (after already fighting through Kaas City).

13. The Sith Emperor

Avatar of the dark side; supremely powerful in the Force. Fought on a darkside nexus so powerful that conventional weapons don't even work near it.

This is the big one. An amazing feat.

------------

As per SWTORE, HoT handled impossible odds.

------------

HoT, by virtue of available evidence, is superior to both Dooku and Mace in skill and power. Probably in the league of Luke. Nephthys also agrees with this assessment.

Nephthys

Urgh, that should be 'You harness immense power' and 'one of the Jedi's most famous duelists.' Stupid Legend misquoting and me not correcting them right.

S_W_LeGenD

@Neph

That is amazing work! Thank you.

http://s24.postimg.org/icihpbryd/Sidious.png

axel_jovan

Yeah.

axel_jovan

Originally posted by Intrepid37
laughing

lol

Yeah, I've only now noticed. embarrasment

* featless

pencilcrayon

A wave that was redirected, hitting the only support structure, and thus causing the thing to collapse.

Nephthys

Nope, I've shown that thats not the case.

Arhael

Funny how Dooku gets lowballed here for not being a powerhouse. It's mostly irrelevant. Dooku's strength is in how skillfully he can utilize his Force capabilities. Someone like Vitiate will stay like a dumb in one place and try to directly overpower and someone like Revan will stay like a dumb and try to resist. Dooku on the other hand actually tries to outwit his opponents, catch them off-guard, when they least expect it.

Kenobi demonstrated that in direct contest he can stalemate even Anakin. In AotC he casually blocked Dooku's lightning with no seeming effort. However, in RotS Dooku attacked with TK in such a way that Kenobi put no Force defense whatsoever.

Anakin could block Dooku's lightning with lightsaber as he demonstrated in their last CW fight. Yet, Dooku still electrocuted him.

Dooku might not be as powerful as HoT. That doesn't mean he can't Force handle him like Kenobi or Anakin.

Also, lets not forget that Vitiate has no feats of team work. Windu and Dooku both were trained and trained others to fight like a team. The fact that Meetra could catch Vitiate off-guard and could actually kill him doesn't look well, when we consider him fighting against more than 1 opponent.

Nephthys

I'm hardly lowballing him by saying that he can't beat two of the most powerful Force Users in the mythos. erm

pencilcrayon

Vitiate will most likely walk into a lightsaber without any interaction from his opponent as he has already done with HoT.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
Vitiate will most likely walk into a lightsaber without any interaction from his opponent as he has already done with HoT.
He isn't stupid; you remember how he prevented Revan from getting close to him?

HoT is also on a whole new league in comparison to most Jedi; he is another Luke in the making. What he managed to do isn't reflective of what other relatively inferior opponents can do. He seems to be above all Jedi barring Luke.

Team 1 is outclassed totally.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
By this time the HoT had already defeated 4 Sith Lords, A Dark Council-level opponent, a creature that hunts Krayt Dragons, an Imperial Guardsman who's killed over 2 dozen (24) Sith Lords and the Emperors motherfudging Wrath. Thats easily enough to put them on Savages level. At least.
This is too much for a Savage class individual.

A) The very first major opponent that HoT encountered; Bengel Morr, rag-dolled battlehardened Jedi Master Orgus Din in front of him (this Jedi Master comfortably collapsed a large cave in front of HoT; seems to be on Dooku's level in Force mastery at least.)

B) Maul and Savage do not strike me as Dark Council materials; many powerful/noteworthy Sith Lords have served the Empire and were not Council members.

C) Wrath will cut Savage in to pieces, given his kill record and expertise in lightsaber combat.

D) Imperial Guardsman also sounds more impressive then Savage; killing 24 Sith Lords is BIG DEAL.

Savage is strong but lacks in expertise in both dark side and lightsaber combat. Telekinetic abilities are not going to be sufficient for him against much more martial and skilled combatants who also match/exeed him in power.

----

By the way, nice effort and points.

SIDIOUS 66

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious, you seem to have missed out this part of my response:

No, I just really don't care what you find stupid. Vader has tanked lightning from SK. It's canon whether you like it or not. Vader's made adjustments to his suit, so perhaps it's more protected from energy attacks, IDK. All I know is what happened: Vader has tanked lightning from a very powerful force user, and has also tanked powerful explosions. Yet, Palpatine managed to fatally wound him. Case closed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You admitted that Vader just questioned and threatened them. I don't see why they would have raised a defense at that point if aggressions weren't actually imminent.

You're seriously reaching here. The only good point you've made, is that they may have been defenseless against Palpatine's lightning attack, since they were unaware of it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm just pointing out that theres clearly still physical force applied in blocking it with your bare hands. And therefore the only real reason why Yoda couldn't keep hold of his lightsaber was that he was surprised.

He wasn't surprised, though, unless he had short term memory and forgot who he was fighting.

To assume he was taken by surprise, is just retarded.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats the same thing. no expression

'Containing' it in a lightsaber blade is functionally the same as 'absorbing' it. In fact, its pretty much exactly the same.

No, it's not the same as containing it with a saber, it's a different technique entirely, which is why not many force users can accomplish it. When Yoda absorbed Dooku's lightning, he absorbed the entire attack into his body and then released it back to him. Lightning is not absorbed into a lightsaber. The bolts can be drawn/absorbed onto a lightsaber, but the energy eventually dissipates.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Furthermore, rewatch that fight in AotC. Dooku's lightning manages to force Yoda's arm back, yet Obi-Wan blocked it with his lightsaber with no strain at all. Despite the fact that according to you, Yoda is stronger than Obi-Wan. If anything I'd say that indicates that blocking it with a lightsaber reduces the force.

Yoda pressed his hand back in preparation to redirect the attack after he absorbed all of the energy.

And again, what is your point?

As I said, Yoda, despite his incredible strength, was not strong enough to hold on to his saber when it was hit by a powerful blast of Palpatine's lightning, whereas his mastery with force aborption was a better way for him to handle it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But of course, if you actually have some proof that it reduces the force as you say it does, show it.

I said likely. Yoda even stumbles backwards when he tries to block it with his saber, whereas he kept better balance when he was absorbing that very same lightning with his hands.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't be ridiculous. Not only was Yoda in the much better position of having his lightsaber, but the text notes exactly why it looks like Sidious was doomed; Yoda was successfully pushing his lightning back.

Just because Yoda managed to bend back Palpatine's lightning, does not mean he could have kept it up much longer, and evidently he couldn't, which would be the most logical reason why he would retreat to another pod. That and the fact that we actually see, onscreen, Palpatine blasting Yoda's lightsaber right out of his hands. I think it's pretty clear that Palpatine's lightning is too strong to defend against with a saber, even for a physical beast like Yoda.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He even offers a cocky boast that Sidious and his apprentice will be destroyed. You really think he'd be smacktalking if he felt threatened by Sidious' lightning?

And do you really think he would retreat if he felt he was on the verge of winning?

That smack talk can easily be interpreted has Yoda saying "maybe not at this moment, but I will eventually destroy you before the battle is over."

If we are arguing what makes sense and what doesn't, then my explanation is the only one that makes sense. Yours doesn't. You just don't want to accept the fact that Palpatine's lightning was too strong for Yoda to handle with a saber, when we see that he blasted a prepared Yoda's saber right out of his hands.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats funny, since I'm not only saying it (what now???) but I seem to be defending my point rather effectively.

No, you're being silly, and ignoring what we clearly see onscreen.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The term 'theory' here is important since we can neither prove nor disprove that he had a force barrier up. Since theres no actual evidence for or against it at all. This is all utter speculation. Really unless you can offer something good I'm inclined to dismiss the whole point.

Since it is a standard thing to do for a force user to put up a barrier/force shield or force defense when they are expecting an attack from another force user or when they are about to enter combat with another force user, the burden of proof would be on you to prove that Yoda decided not to defend himself from an incoming attack. Maybe Yoda only half way attempted to absord the lightning and failed, but it's stupid to assume that he put up no kind of force defense.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually if you look at the comic you can see that he keeps using his lightning on them for quite some while he talks to Vader. That would suggest effort on his part to reduce them to that state.

I don't remember Palpatine talking to Vader as he was electrocuting them.

Regardless, the fact that Palpatine uses one hand, does not suggest effort.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And btw, as LeGeND pointed out Vitiate did so 'easily.' (SWTORE, Page 92)

Easily as in they wasn't much of a match for him. If I knock someone out with two punches, I would consider that as an easy take out, but that doesn't mean I didn't put a lot of effort and power in those punches.

It took two charged attacks and several seconds for Vitiate to overpower the strike team.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Impressive.

Yup, especially considering that Vader is far more durable than any of the jedi on the strike team.

Originally posted by Nephthys
According to SWTORE, Vitiate defeated the Strike Team 'easily.' Do you still think Sidious could replicate that?

Yup, considering that it took a single short blast of lightning to instantly KO Yoda, who is more powerful than any of those jedi that Vitiate overpowered.

And since we are being silly here, what proof do you have that the jedi on the strike team had their force defenses raised? I see no evidents for that, I just see a few managing to block some of the bolts with their sabers, while others were just standing there taking it until they were finally put out.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Proving only that Revan and the HoT are amazing at blocking lightning. Nothing more

Or proving that Palpatine's lightning is stronger than Vitiates. Blocking lightning with a saber is something that most jedi are capable of. However, the stronger the lightning, the harder it is to defend against with a saber. In Palpatine's case, his lightning seems too strong to defend against with a saber, considering how he blasted Yoda's right out of his hands, and nearly overpowered Windu's saber defense while pretending to be weak. The ROTS novel even says that his lightning contorted Windu's saber. And while it can argued that Windu's lightning did not look as if it was being contorted in the movie, it should not be ignored that Lucas thoroughly proof-read Stover's novel and approved of it, so it can be concluded that Lucas intended for Palpatine's lightning to be too strong for mere saber defenses.

In Vitiate's case, both Revan and HoT casually handled Vitiate's lightning despite being on a dark side nexus where a dark sider's powers are enhanced, while a light sider's powers are diminished.

axel_jovan

@ Neph, I will reply when I'll have more time, so probably tomorrow or during the weekend.

In the meantime, prepare your anus. evil face

Nephthys

I'm sure Tempest will be doing the same thing. *titter*

ares834

Originally posted by Nephthys
a creature that hunts Krayt Dragons,

wut

Nephthys

Its called a Sand Demon.

(its also weirdly small for something that hunts something that big, but the massive skeleton in front of its lair is enough to convince me its true)

Ascendancy

Originally posted by axel_jovan
@ Neph, I will reply when I'll have more time, so probably tomorrow or during the weekend.

In the meantime, prepare your anus. evil face

Don't ever pm me again with that off the wall insult shit. I'm making this completely public as I feel it should be. You have a problem with my posts then argue them in the thread as I've done with yours and keep personal attacks to yourself. Worse still is that my statement was a general one addressing an line of thought made by multiple posters in the thread, but somehow in your vanity you assumed that it was solely for you. If it were a response to you, I would have quoted you, so get over yourself.

Simple, to the point. Don't let it happen again.

pencilcrayon

Didn't he also say in an interview that he changed Palpatine's decapitation of a Jedi to make it PG-13 rating? He approved the book and its details.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, I just really don't care what you find stupid. Vader has tanked lightning from SK. It's canon whether you like it or not. Vader's made adjustments to his suit, so perhaps it's more protected from energy attacks, IDK. All I know is what happened: Vader has tanked lightning from a very powerful force user, and has also tanked powerful explosions. Yet, Palpatine managed to fatally wound him. Case closed.
Case closed?

SK actually subdued Vader with his lightning.

Proficiency in lightning is dependent upon its wielder's emotions and command of the dark side. Sidious was considerably more well-versed in dark arts/Sith lore then Starkiller (ever could be) under tutelage of Vader.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You're seriously reaching here. The only good point you've made, is that they may have been defenseless against Palpatine's lightning attack, since they were unaware of it.
They weren't armed with lightsabers either or even trained to use such a weapon for defensive purposes. So another negative for them.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He wasn't surprised, though, unless he had short term memory and forgot who he was fighting.

To assume he was taken by surprise, is just retarded.
My contention is that Yoda is not a physical brute and this is why he failed to maintain his grip when the lightning stuck his hand. Great physical strength can be an asset in combat situations. Even though the Force can be used to augment physical attributes, it is unclear if Yoda had actually pumped-up his physical strength when he landed on a pod (occupied by his opponent) during the fight before being subjected to lightning barrage again.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, it's not the same as containing it with a saber, it's a different technique entirely, which is why not many force users can accomplish it. When Yoda absorbed Dooku's lightning, he absorbed the entire attack into his body and then released it back to him. Lightning is not absorbed into a lightsaber. The bolts can be drawn/absorbed onto a lightsaber, but the energy eventually dissipates.
Nicely put here! Only the Jedi with great understanding of the Force are able to use their raw power to absorb and/or redirect powers composed of pure (Force) energies through their physical bodies.

As far as lightsaber based defense is concerned; Force lightning varies in its sheer scale and intensity on the basis of emotions and command of the dark side of its wielder, and protection afforded by a lightsaber is not always adequate.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Just because Yoda managed to bend back Palpatine's lightning, does not mean he could have kept it up much longer, and evidently he couldn't, which would be the most logical reason why he would retreat to another pod. That and the fact that we actually see, onscreen, Palpatine blasting Yoda's lightsaber right out of his hands. I think it's pretty clear that Palpatine's lightning is too strong to defend against with a saber, even for a physical beast like Yoda.
Yoda is a physical beast? Am I missing something?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And do you really think he would retreat if he felt he was on the verge of winning?
Whether Yoda could win or not is open to debate; Palpatine managed to use the (Pods filled) environment to his advantage. In contrast, in a plain setting, he ran away from Yoda.

Though the starting events of this duel still surprise. When Yoda confronted Sidious, why the hell he didn't keep his guard up? And an even more ironic event was that Sidious wasted the opportunity to kill Yoda after rendering him unconscious for a brief period. Sith mastermind at his utmost brilliance...

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Since it is a standard thing to do for a force user to put up a barrier/force shield or force defense when they are expecting an attack from another force user or when they are about to enter combat with another force user, the burden of proof would be on you to prove that Yoda decided not to defend himself from an incoming attack. Maybe Yoda only half way attempted to absord the lightning and failed, but it's stupid to assume that he put up no kind of force defense.
Nobody is exempt from bad decision-making.

Some examples:-

- Sidious wasted the opportunity to kill Yoda after rendering him unconscious.
- Vitiate got close enough to HoT during a struggle to endanger his safety and paid the price for it.

So it is absolutely possible that Yoda didn't kept his guard up when he confronted Sidious or shielded himself to such a degree that he would be able to endure a powerful attack without much issue.

Keep in mind that Yoda send Sidious packing with a Force push as well. However, I find Sidious's defensive abilities to be inadequate for an individual as strong as him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Regardless, the fact that Palpatine uses one hand, does not suggest effort.
Using one hand does not suggests effort?

Analogy: Maul put lot of effort in to pulling a shuttle with a single hand.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Easily as in they wasn't much of a match for him. If I knock someone out with two punches, I would consider that as an easy take out, but that doesn't mean I didn't put a lot of effort and power in those punches.

It took two charged attacks and several seconds for Vitiate to overpower the strike team.
Several seconds is considerable time in your opinion?

And "four of the strongest Jedi" is lot of firepower.

Vitiate easily overwhelmed such a formidable Strike Team, as per canon description.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yup, especially considering that Vader is far more durable than any of the jedi on the strike team.
And you know this how? HoT would be incredibly durable since he dealt with impossible odds.

Vader's durability is great but not unique; Malgus was extraordinarily durable as an example.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yup, considering that it took a single short blast of lightning to instantly KO Yoda, who is more powerful than any of those jedi that Vitiate overpowered.
1. Whether Yoda is stronger then HoT or not is open to debate; most likely the former isn't.

2. The combined might of "four of the strongest Jedi" is going to trump that of (single) Yoda's in all aspects anyways.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And since we are being silly here, what proof do you have that the jedi on the strike team had their force defenses raised? I see no evidents for that, I just see a few managing to block some of the bolts with their sabers, while others were just standing there taking it until they were finally put out.
The fact that they didn't got reduced to pile of ash (each) must mean something.

In addition, it is possible that Vitiate didn't go all-out in this case either since he decided to use these Jedi as his pawns.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Or proving that Palpatine's lightning is stronger than Vitiates.
Unlikely...

Nyriss have demonstrated relatively greater proficiency with lightning. Vitiate is a far cry.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Blocking lightning with a saber is something that most jedi are capable of. However, the stronger the lightning, the harder it is to defend against with a saber. In Palpatine's case, his lightning seems too strong to defend against with a saber, considering how he blasted Yoda's right out of his hands, and nearly overpowered Windu's saber defense while pretending to be weak. The ROTS novel even says that his lightning contorted Windu's saber. And while it can argued that Windu's lightning did not look as if it was being contorted in the movie, it should not be ignored that Lucas thoroughly proof-read Stover's novel and approved of it, so it can be concluded that Lucas intended for Palpatine's lightning to be too strong for mere saber defenses.
Of-course, Sidious was proficient in the use of lightning and his barrage couldn't be easily defended against but not impossible either. However, protection afforded by lightsaber(s) wouldn't have been enough against Nyriss's signature FLS, let alone Vitiate's. Heck, Malgus also have demonstrated the capability to nullify protection afforded by lightsaber(s) with his lightning.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
In Vitiate's case, both Revan and HoT casually handled Vitiate's lightning despite being on a dark side nexus where a dark sider's powers are enhanced, while a light sider's powers are diminished.
They handled his normal bursts.

axel_jovan

Originally posted by Ascendancy
Don't ever pm me again with that off the wall insult shit. I'm making this completely public as I feel it should be. You have a problem with my posts then argue them in the thread as I've done with yours and keep personal attacks to yourself. Worse still is that my statement was a general one addressing an line of thought made by multiple posters in the thread, but somehow in your vanity you assumed that it was solely for you. If it were a response to you, I would have quoted you, so get over yourself.

Simple, to the point. Don't let it happen again.

WTF?? I didn't PM you, man.

Neither I'm not stupid nor aggressive to insult or attack someone via on board or PM....

My profile must have been hacked, anyway I will pass it on to mods....

SIDIOUS 66

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Am I missing something?

Yeah

ares834

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah
Details?

DARTH POWER

S66 I think you mean Yoda is a force enhanced beast. Physical beast would be someone like Mace or Savage.

Nephthys

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, I just really don't care what you find stupid. Vader has tanked lightning from SK. It's canon whether you like it or not. Vader's made adjustments to his suit, so perhaps it's more protected from energy attacks, IDK. All I know is what happened: Vader has tanked lightning from a very powerful force user, and has also tanked powerful explosions. Yet, Palpatine managed to fatally wound him. Case closed.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcwtu8nR4p1radkm3o1_500.jpg

Case very much not closed! You've hardly articulated your point at all. Why, you didn't even point out when Vader supposedly 'tanked' this lightning. Because Legend is right, Vader was actually defeated by Starkillers lightning in TFUII. I think you're talking about this part from TFUI:

'Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath.'

Yes, that does seem to indicate that Vader could tank Starkillers lightning. A compelling case for the Emperor. Except that, again, Starkiller overwhelmed and beat him with lightning in TFUII. At first this is easy to explain, Starkiller used the lightning rod to boost his power in the game. But you forget, thats not the only version of events:

'With both hands he sent a wave of lightning into the sparking gash Juno had made in Vader's chest plate.

The Dark Lord staggered backward, transfixed by the unexpected retaliation. Starkiller leapt to his feet and followed him, keeping up the lightning attack and using telekinesis to rip Vader's lightsaber from his temporarily weakened fingers. Sheers of energy spread our across the wet rooftop. Smoke and steam rose up in a tortured spiral. The grating whine of Vader's respirator rook on a desperate edge.

He went down on one knee. Starkiller stood over him. Vader's lightsaber swept into his former apprentice's hand. The blade came to rest at his throat.'

In the novel Starkiller is able to beat Vader because theres an opening in his armor that allows his lightning to penetrate. So even if Vader insulated his suit, the damage allowed Starkiller to still damage it and defeat him. However, that's clearly irrelevent since there was no opening when Sidious electrocuted and killed him, right?

http://aceattorneyspain.com/Sprites/Apollo-S/apollo-confident%28a%29.gif

Except that there was!

http://customstarwars.x3.hu/film/vader.jpg

His hand! When Sidious killed Vader his armor was breached. Just like it was when Stakiller defeated him. In fact, as I recall Vader had also lost a hand when Starkiller defeated him in the game. So yet again Vaders protective armor could have been bypassed. And when Starkiller defeats him in the book his respirator seems to be damaged, just as it was when Sidious killed him. Because of this I conclude that Vader was near the point when he would have died. He was defeated and having difficulty breathing.

Conclusion: Sidious' lightning would only have had to be a little bit more powerful than Starkillers to kill Vader. And in my opinion that does not equal it being as powerful as Vitiates.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You're seriously reaching here. The only good point you've made, is that they may have been defenseless against Palpatine's lightning attack, since they were unaware of it.

And thats enough to prove my case. However I still stand by that there's no visual indication that they did put up an attack and no indication from them.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He wasn't surprised, though, unless he had short term memory and forgot who he was fighting.

To assume he was taken by surprise, is just retarded.

As is it retarded to suggest that he could perform an action yet not an action that is far easier to perform. And one that if the script is to be believed, he had already performed for some amount of time. So tell me, why would Yoda be able to deflect Sidious' lightning with his lightsaber at that point, and for an extended amount of time, but had his lightsaber blown out of his hand immediately at another?

Perhaps because he wasn't properly prepared the second time?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, it's not the same as containing it with a saber, it's a different technique entirely, which is why not many force users can accomplish it. When Yoda absorbed Dooku's lightning, he absorbed the entire attack into his body and then released it back to him. Lightning is not absorbed into a lightsaber. The bolts can be drawn/absorbed onto a lightsaber, but the energy eventually dissipates.

Yet the technique in question is a simple one, taught to younglings as per The Jedi Path. And you have proof that its a different technique? The Jedi Path describes Tutaminis as 'the ability to channel or diffusing potentially harmful energy by using the benevolent energy of the Force.' It does not say that you can only do this through your own body. Channeling the lightning into a lightsaber blade and diffusing it using a lightsaber blade sound very much a part of that description.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yoda pressed his hand back in preparation to redirect the attack after he absorbed all of the energy.

And again, what is your point?

As I said, Yoda, despite his incredible strength, was not strong enough to hold on to his saber when it was hit by a powerful blast of Palpatine's lightning, whereas his mastery with force aborption was a better way for him to handle it.

http://aceattorneyspain.com/Sprites/Apollo-S/apollo-document%28b%29.gif

Really? Watch it again:

BvnwLLXHabg

The jerkiness of the motion looks far more like his arm was forced back.

You forgot another possibility: Yoda simply wasn't enhancing his strength with the Force at the time. POWER is right in that Yoda is not a naturally strong being, so he must instead enhance his strength with the Force. Now he would be doing this in a saberlock with Sidious, as would the latter, yes making it impressive that he overpowered Sidious. But would he have been doing it when all he was doing was flourishing his lightsaber against an unarmed opponent? When theres no need for him to enhance his strength?

http://images.wikia.com/aceattorney/images/f/f2/Apollo_Desk_Slam_1.gif

I think not.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I said likely. Yoda even stumbles backwards when he tries to block it with his saber, whereas he kept better balance when he was absorbing that very same lightning with his hands.

Which could easily fit in with my explanation that he was surprised. And he is forced back a step by Sidious when blocking it with his hand.

And then forced back again:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/ROTS/Yoda-1.jpg

http://aceattorneyspain.com/Sprites/Apollo-S/apollo-confident%28b%29.gif

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Just because Yoda managed to bend back Palpatine's lightning, does not mean he could have kept it up much longer, and evidently he couldn't, which would be the most logical reason why he would retreat to another pod. That and the fact that we actually see, onscreen, Palpatine blasting Yoda's lightsaber right out of his hands. I think it's pretty clear that Palpatine's lightning is too strong to defend against with a saber, even for a physical beast like Yoda.

Except that the text backs up this by saying that the Dark Lord looks doomed. Just read the text: Yoda disarms Sidious, then manages to turn back his lightning, the text itself notes that Sidious looks doomed and then Yoda quips that he's going to win. You really think that whats actually going on is that Sidious is overpowering him? Everything in the scene suggests differently.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And do you really think he would retreat if he felt he was on the verge of winning?

That smack talk can easily be interpreted has Yoda saying "maybe not at this moment, but I will eventually destroy you before the battle is over."

If we are arguing what makes sense and what doesn't, then my explanation is the only one that makes sense. Yours doesn't. You just don't want to accept the fact that Palpatine's lightning was too strong for Yoda to handle with a saber, when we see that he blasted a prepared Yoda's saber right out of his hands.

No I don't, which is the entire point by which I'm calling it ****ing stupid.

No, it can't. Yoda says 'Destroy you I will' not 'Eventually.' He wouldn't take the time to confidently proclaim that he's going to win if Sidious was overpowering him. Splitting his focus between holding Sidious back and talking to him is not something he'd be doing if he was only barely doing and failing at the former.

And yet Yoda blocked his lightning for a prolonged period of time in the script and achieved the much more difficult task of doing so with his hands previously. Even if Sidious did overpower him legitimately with his lightning, I could just claim it to be from exhaustion, which is noted to be a factor in Ataru. Yoda could easily just be physically weakened from tiredness. And then I can also argue that Yoda wasn't enhancing his strength at the time.

So really I'm in no danger from this point.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, you're being silly, and ignoring what we clearly see onscreen.

I'm being logical, and offering a different explanation of what we see onscreen than you.

Successfully.

Nephthys

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Since it is a standard thing to do for a force user to put up a barrier/force shield or force defense when they are expecting an attack from another force user or when they are about to enter combat with another force user, the burden of proof would be on you to prove that Yoda decided not to defend himself from an incoming attack. Maybe Yoda only half way attempted to absord the lightning and failed, but it's stupid to assume that he put up no kind of force defense.

Its also standard for them to have their lightsaber out when they are expecting an attack from another force user or when they are about to enter combat with another force user. Yet Yoda did not have his in his hand now did he? Thats even more stupid than not putting up a force defense imo.

And no, the burden of proof is on you. I don't have to prove that he didn't do something. With no indication that he did, the burden is on you to prove that he did. The lack of any evidence for your argument is all the proof I need.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I don't remember Palpatine talking to Vader as he was electrocuting them.

Regardless, the fact that Palpatine uses one hand, does not suggest effort.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b281/Frost327/Pictures/Vader%20vs%20Maul/Palpatine1.jpg

Prolonged use does suggest some effort was involved and that he wouldn't be able to do it in a single blast. Plus, as I pointed out to Tempest, Sidious was on a Force Nexus at the time. A pretty powerful one at that.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Easily as in they wasn't much of a match for him. If I knock someone out with two punches, I would consider that as an easy take out, but that doesn't mean I didn't put a lot of effort and power in those punches.

It took two charged attacks and several seconds for Vitiate to overpower the strike team.

http://aceattorneyspain.com/Sprites/Apollo-S/apollo-document%28a%29.gif

And yet canon says that he did not require effort. Your opinion on the fight is noted, yet irrelevent.

And I disagree. Vitiate holds the lot of them off with a Force Storm that he conjures with a one handed sweep, pushes the Hero back with a blast of lightning then takes them out in a single attack. Thats easy if they say it is.

I might think that Galen Marek resisting Sidious to the degree that Sidious' own lightning was turned on him and he screamed in pain means that he wasn't 'no match' for him, but if canon says differently who am I to disagree?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yup, especially considering that Vader is far more durable than any of the jedi on the strike team.

http://aceattorneyspain.com/Sprites/Apollo-S/apollo-objects%28a%29.gif

Objection! Was Vader actively resisting Sidious' lightning like they were to Vitiate?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yup, considering that it took a single short blast of lightning to instantly KO Yoda, who is more powerful than any of those jedi that Vitiate overpowered.

And since we are being silly here, what proof do you have that the jedi on the strike team had their force defenses raised? I see no evidents for that, I just see a few managing to block some of the bolts with their sabers, while others were just standing there taking it until they were finally put out.

http://aceattorneyspain.com/Sprites/Apollo-S/apollo-objects%28a%29.gif

Objection! More powerful than all of them put together? No. Easily more powerful than all of them put together? Hahaha, hell to the no! Besides which there is no indication that Yoda even attempted to block Sidious' lightning and if he did, wasn't able to bring his full power to bare.

Even I'm not petty enough to use that argument man. They had their lightsabers out and were charging at him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Or proving that Palpatine's lightning is stronger than Vitiates.

No.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Blocking lightning with a saber is something that most jedi are capable of. However, the stronger the lightning, the harder it is to defend against with a saber. In Palpatine's case, his lightning seems too strong to defend against with a saber, considering how he blasted Yoda's right out of his hands, and nearly overpowered Windu's saber defense while pretending to be weak.

Except that both actually managed to do it. Your 'proof' kinda blows dude.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
In Vitiate's case, both Revan and HoT casually handled Vitiate's lightning despite being on a dark side nexus where a dark sider's powers are enhanced, while a light sider's powers are diminished.

Again, explainable by Revan and the HoT being better at tutaminis than Yoda and Windu. But if you really can't ****ing accept that explanation for whatever inane reason, how about this:

Revan blocked it 300 years before Vitiates prime. He had 300 years to improve since then.

When the HoT blocked his lightning he was so exhausted that he could barely stand.

Oh look at how that totally proves that Vitiate sucks guys!

Nephthys

On a re-read, this:

'Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath.'

Isn't as conclusive as I thought. It says he blasted Vader, but not whether he actually hit him. Vader could have blocked his lightning, stopping his assualt and the quote would be the same. So yeah, I think I'm going to have to ask again where exactly Vader tanked Starkillers lightning.

S_W_LeGenD

Nice, Neph.

The opening part of your response is amazing. You figured out a very vital loophole that led to easy demise of Vader from lightning of Palpatine.

You deserve a KISS.

SIDIOUS 66

Originally posted by Nephthys
Case very much not closed! You've hardly articulated your point at all. Why, you didn't even point out when Vader supposedly 'tanked' this lightning. Because Legend is right, Vader was actually defeated by Starkillers lightning in TFUII.

But was killed by Palpatine's.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In the novel Starkiller is able to beat Vader because theres an opening in his armor that allows his lightning to penetrate. So even if Vader insulated his suit, the damage allowed Starkiller to still damage it and defeat him. However, that's clearly irrelevent since there was no opening when Sidious electrocuted and killed him, right?

Except that there was!

LMAO laughing

Vader's hand being cut off has nothing to do with the armor that protects his internal circuitry respirating systems. Vader took the full brunt of SK lightning attack to an opening in his chest plate. Sidious couldn't even properly attack Vader with the full brunt of his lightning, as the bolts were flying everywhere and majority of them were missing Vader, and yet Palpatine still did more damage to him than SK did.

Originally posted by Nephthys
His hand! When Sidious killed Vader his armor was breached. Just like it was when Stakiller defeated him. In fact, as I recall Vader had also lost a hand when Starkiller defeated him in the game. So yet again Vaders protective armor could have been bypassed. And when Starkiller defeats him in the book his respirator seems to be damaged, just as it was when Sidious killed him. Because of this I conclude that Vader was near the point when he would have died. He was defeated and having difficulty breathing.

Palpatine damaged him beyond repair, and I believe there is a source that says it as well (I'll try to find it asap), but in the movie Vader flat out says that nothing can stop him from dying, whereas he ended up surviving SK's attack.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As is it retarded to suggest that he could perform an action yet not an action that is far easier to perform. And one that if the script is to be believed, he had already performed for some amount of time. So tell me, why would Yoda be able to deflect Sidious' lightning with his lightsaber at that point, and for an extended amount of time, but had his lightsaber blown out of his hand immediately at another?

A different attack of lightning. Palpatine's second lightning attack was likely more powerful, as the first one was an in the split of the moment reaction after recovering from nearly falling off the edge and dropping his saber.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Perhaps because he wasn't properly prepared the second time?

To believe that Yoda was taken by surprise the second time is outright retarded. Yoda was in combat position with both hands gripped to his saber, and knew Sidious had no lightsaber to defend himself, therefore Yoda knew that Sidious had nothing but his force powers to rely on. Are you suggesting that Yoda had short term memory?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yet the technique in question is a simple one, taught to younglings as per The Jedi Path. And you have proof that its a different technique? The Jedi Path describes Tutaminis as 'the ability to channel or diffusing potentially harmful energy by using the benevolent energy of the Force.' It does not say that you can only do this through your own body. Channeling the lightning into a lightsaber blade and diffusing it using a lightsaber blade sound very much a part of that description.

I already explained the difference.

Using a lightsaber is more dependent on one's physical strength, whereas absorbing it with your hands is dependent on one's force mastery and raw force power. When Windu was deflecting Sidious lightning with his blade, the novel said he had no more strength left to fight his own blade. Using a lightsaber to block an attack is limited to one's physical strength.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Really? Watch it again:

BvnwLLXHabg

The jerkiness of the motion looks far more like his arm was forced back.

Jerkiness? Again, the first lightning attack looked more to me that he pushed his arm back in preparation to redirect the lightning. The second attack was longer and Yoda had his hand stationary the entire time until he fully absorbed the entire attack.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You forgot another possibility: Yoda simply wasn't enhancing his strength with the Force at the time. POWER is right in that Yoda is not a naturally strong being, so he must instead enhance his strength with the Force. Now he would be doing this in a saberlock with Sidious, as would the latter, yes making it impressive that he overpowered Sidious. But would he have been doing it when all he was doing was flourishing his lightsaber against an unarmed opponent? When theres no need for him to enhance his strength?

Yoda was in the middle of combat, there is not reason to assume that he was no longer using the force to enhance his physicality, especially when he knew Palpatine was capable of attacking him with lightning, which causes a forceful impact.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which could easily fit in with my explanation that he was surprised. And he is forced back a step by Sidious when blocking it with his hand.

Yeah, being forced back a step compares to stumbling backwards.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And then forced back again:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/ROTS/Yoda-1.jpg

http://aceattorneyspain.com/Sprites/Apollo-S/apollo-confident%28b%29.gif

As I said, Yoda kept better balance when he was absorbing the lightning with his hands, despite the fact that Palpatine was closing in on him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No I don't, which is the entire point by which I'm calling it ****ing stupid.

Yeah, because you're going by your retarded explanation. Mine is the only one that makes sense.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, it can't. Yoda says 'Destroy you I will' not 'Eventually.' He wouldn't take the time to confidently proclaim that he's going to win if Sidious was overpowering him. Splitting his focus between holding Sidious back and talking to him is not something he'd be doing if he was only barely doing and failing at the former.

Have you seen the movie "Envaders from Mars"? If not, you can google it. But anyway, there is a scene where a teacher, whose mind was taken over by aliens, tried to kidnap this little boy. Well she failed and the boy managed to escape, and then the teacher shouts out in irritation "I will get you David Gardner" because of her failure to capture him. She didn't say "eventually." Stop being ridiculous, Neph.

Yoda manages to hold on to his saber and bend back Palpatine's lightning for a bit, and the scripts says Palpatine looked as if he was doomed, then Yoda says "destroy you I will" and retreats right after, which seems to suggest that Yoda didn't have faith in continuing containing the lightning any further. So regardless of whether or not Palpatine looked as if he was doomed, it is irrelevant if Yoda could not continue to bend back Palpatine's lightning any longer.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And yet Yoda blocked his lightning for a prolonged period of time in the script and achieved the much more difficult task of doing so with his hands previously.

Prolonged? How long did Yoda manage? 3 seconds? 5 seconds? The script certainly didn't mention it, and it definitely didn't suggest that it was prolonged.

And prove it is a more difficult task of accomplishing with your hands. Evidently, in Yoda's case, it wasn't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Even if Sidious did overpower him legitimately with his lightning, I could just claim it to be from exhaustion, which is noted to be a factor in Ataru. Yoda could easily just be physically weakened from tiredness.

If Yoda was exhausted when he attempted to block it with his saber, then he would have also been exhausted when he was absorbing it with his hands, which would contradict both your claims that blocking it with a saber is easier, and that absorbing it does not reduce the physical impact behind the attack, considering that he kept better balance while absorbing it even though Palpatine was closing in on him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So really I'm in no danger from this point.

Your argument was an epic fail. lol

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm being logical, and offering a different explanation of what we see onscreen than you.

Nope, clearly you're being silly.

SIDIOUS 66

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its also standard for them to have their lightsaber out when they are expecting an attack from another force user or when they are about to enter combat with another force user. Yet Yoda did not have his in his hand now did he? Thats even more stupid than not putting up a force defense imo.

It's standard for a jedi to have their sabers out if they are about to engage in a saber duel, or if it's the only way they can block energy attacks. But Yoda can evidently defend against force attacks with his force mastery better than he can with a saber. So, no, Yoda not having his saber out is "not even more stupid." Sidious was several feet from him, and didn't even have his saber out, so Yoda had no need to have his saber out at that moment. At the distance Yoda was standing from Sidious, he was most likely to be attacked by a force attack. And to suggest that Yoda had no force defense up is retarded.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And no, the burden of proof is on you. I don't have to prove that he didn't do something. With no indication that he did, the burden is on you to prove that he did. The lack of any evidence for your argument is all the proof I need.

Not when it's standard for a jedi to have their force defenses up when they are about to engage another force user. So if you want to claim that Yoda just randomly decided to have his force defenses lowered when he was standing in the presence of a force user whose force power rivaled his own, then it's up to you to prove it. And not having his saber out, is not proof that he had his force defense lowered.

Originally posted by Nephthys
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b281/Frost327/Pictures/Vader%20vs%20Maul/Palpatine1.jpg

Prolonged use does suggest some effort was involved and that he wouldn't be able to do it in a single blast. Plus, as I pointed out to Tempest, Sidious was on a Force Nexus at the time. A pretty powerful one at that.

Sidious said one sentence after his attack started wane. That hardly suggests a prolong attack.

How powerful was the nexus? Do you have a quote or source? Btw, majority of Vitiate's lightning feats all took place on a dark side nexus as well, even when Revan described it as being infinitely more powerful than Nyriss's, am I correct?

Originally posted by Nephthys
And yet canon says that he did not require effort. Your opinion on the fight is noted, yet irrelevent.

Didn't you just claim that a prolong attack suggests effort? Well it took Vitiate two attacks of gathered energy and several seconds to put them out.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I might think that Galen Marek resisting Sidious to the degree that Sidious' own lightning was turned on him and he screamed in pain means that he wasn't 'no match' for him, but if canon says differently who am I to disagree?

Because he wasn't a match for Palpatine power. He opened himself up to the force and commited a suicide attack by throwing everything he had at Sidious, which left Sidious unharmed and still standing.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Objection! Was Vader actively resisting Sidious' lightning like they were to Vitiate?

Sidious was unable to successfully attack Vader with the full brunt of his lightning. But so what? Vader's far more durable than any of the jedi on the strike team, and is likely more powerful than them as well.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Objection! More powerful than all of them put together? No. Easily more powerful than all of them put together? Hahaha, hell to the no!

Umm, yeah. There is no way in hell Vitiate would "effortlessly" take out Yoda. Yoda is on par with Sidious, who can easily overpower force users in the prime of the jedi order (Maul and Savage come to mind) just as easily as Vitiate can overpower force users of his era.

Give me some feats of theirs with full context which would suggest that they even begin to approach Yoda. And I'm not interested in a list of opponents HoT defeated if they lack context. Not too many force users rival Sidious and Yoda, and I'm not just going to assume they do just because they are called some of the most talented jedi of their time.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Besides which there is no indication that Yoda even attempted to block Sidious' lightning and if he did, wasn't able to bring his full power to bare.

Yoda puts his hand out in an attempt to block it, and as I said, it's a standard thing to do for a jedi to have their force defenses raised when they are about to engage another force user in battle. Maybe Yoda did not bring his full power to bare in an effort to absorb the lightning, but that doesn't mean he didn't put up a force barrier or defense up. Regardless, Yoda is more powerful than them, and it took one short blast of Palpatine's lightning to render him unconscious. So, yeah if Sidious can do that to one of the most powerful jedi in history, then he can definitely take out a bunch of featless jedi if he uses two prolonged lightning attacks. Definitely.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Even I'm not petty enough to use that argument man. They had their lightsabers out and were charging at him.

So they had their force defenses up because they had their sabers out, but Yoda didn't have his up because he didn't have his saber out? lol nope, I need you to prove they had their force defenses up.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Except that both actually managed to do it. Your 'proof' kinda blows dude.

Except one didn't manage the second attack, whereas the other one only managed to because Sidious was pretending to be weak and stopped his attack.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Again, explainable by Revan and the HoT being better at tutaminis than Yoda and Windu. But if you really can't ****ing accept that explanation for whatever inane reason, how about this:

Blocking with a light saber is not the same as absorbing lightning with your hands, which is something that only the most powerful force users are capable of. Being able to contain lightning with a saber depends mostly on the wielders strength and how powerful the lightning is. Both Windu and Yoda are physically strong force users, and yet struggled to contain Sidious lightning with their sabers, whereas HoT and Revan casually handled Vitiate's lightning with theirs.

Let me guess, you want me to assume that HoT and Revan are physically stronger than Yoda and Mace just because you say so, right?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan blocked it 300 years before Vitiates prime. He had 300 years to improve since then.

How much did his lightning improve?

Originally posted by Nephthys
When the HoT blocked his lightning he was so exhausted that he could barely stand.

But he was also on a dark side nexus where a dark siders powers are enhanced while a light siders powers are diminished.

When Palpatine's body was almost ready to die out on Byss, a dark side nexus, he was capable of disintegrating Leia's lightsaber, and shrugged off the crushing impact of over a ton of machinery, seemingly disintegrating it as well. Why would Vitiate's power be affected by exhaustion, especially when he would have an immense power supply to replenish himself with?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh look at how that totally proves that Vitiate sucks guys!

I didn't say Vitiate sucks. I think he is supremely powerful, but I think he is overhyped.

And your arguments are weak. The fact that you are trying to give me so many different explanations instead of sticking to one stance, suggests that you are wanting to force your opinion, that Vitiate's lightning is more powerful, on me. You are unable to counter my argument that Palpatine's lightning can overwhelm the saber defenses of some of the most physically strong individuals in the mythos, whereas Vitiate's lightning has been casually handled by the saber defenses of individuals who have done nothing to suggest they are as physically strong as Yoda, which may suggest that Palpatine's lightning is more potent, so you were just wanting me to accept that HoT and Revan are better at blocking lightning with a saber, but you are unable to prove that, so now you're claiming that Vitiate wasn't using his most powerful lightning during both instances (in Revan's case, because Vitiate wasn't as powerful back then; in HoT's case, Vitiate was exhausted). Which is it: are they just that good, or is it because Vitiate's attacks weren't as powerful when they were able to casually block it with their sabers? It's like you're just wanting me to accept that Vitiate's lightning is stronger just because you say so.

The_Tempest

As a point of clarification, Neph claimed that Kalakar VI is a dark side nexus... But could only offer a citationless sentence from a Wookieepedia article.

Nephthys

Its from Resurrection, which I do not own nor am I inclined to spend money acquiring. I believe it to be too detailed to be fabricated however.

S_W_LeGenD

@SIDIOUS 66

Your assertion fits you well:

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And your arguments are weak.

------

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You are unable to counter my argument that Palpatine's lightning can overwhelm the saber defenses of some of the most physically strong individuals in the mythos,
Since when is Yoda a physical brute? He is strong in the Force but not a physical brute. In addition, Sidious managed to disarm only Yoda with his lightning; he couldn't do the same to Mace.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
whereas Vitiate's lightning has been casually handled by the saber defenses of individuals who have done nothing to suggest they are as physically strong as Yoda,
Hello? Humans are physically stronger then Yoda's species (Lannik).

Also, evidence have already been provided that lightsaber defenses are not sufficient to counter Vitiate's lightning when he augments it to FLS level.

Vitiate actually disarmed the entire Jedi Strike Team with his FLS, in case you didn't notice:-

The Jedi are armed:

http://s22.postimg.org/ddet5nd69/Fight2.png

Vitiate's FLS begins to disarm the Jedi:

http://s15.postimg.org/52o9x59l7/Fight3.png

The entire Strike Team gets disarmed before it succumbs to simultaneous pressure of mental domination and lightning:

http://s3.postimg.org/etzlwbb6b/Fight4.png

NOTE: Narez and Sedoru got disarmed first followed by Braga and HoT.

Vitiate could go even further and reduce all Jedi to pile of ash but he decided to use them as his pawns instead.

Therefore, your lowballing makes no sense at all.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
which may suggest that Palpatine's lightning is more potent, so you were just wanting me to accept that HoT and Revan are better at blocking lightning with a saber, but you are unable to prove that, so now you're claiming that Vitiate wasn't using his most powerful lightning during both instances (in Revan's case, because Vitiate wasn't as powerful back then; in HoT's case, Vitiate was exhausted).
Vitiate unleashed his normal bursts on Revan first which the Jedi Master handled comfortably with his lightsaber and even deflected a stream back towards the Sith Emperor. Make no mistake, even these normal bursts were very potent but Revan packed amazing command of the Force so these bursts wouldn't stop him. However, when Vitiate decided to go all out then Revan realized that the best option for him to use his incredible raw power to resist Vitiate's power but it didn't work. Now to speculate that somehow a lightsaber would have worked is stupid and illogical since the Jedi Master knew how to deal with various kinds of threats and the limitations of a lightsaber.

During Vitiate's second confrontation with HoT; the Sith Emperor had commenced a Galaxy-busting ritual which put a strain on his strength and only when he got injured from a lightsaber strike during the fight then he unleashed his lightning but he couldn't manage to augment it to FLS level due to his strained strength and injuries and HoT benefited from this.

Under fair circumstances, Vitiate dismantled an entire Strike Team of strongest Jedi in the Galaxy as proved above.

It is immensely difficult to disarm 4 powerful opponents simultaneously then just one. Their is no contest.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Which is it: are they just that good, or is it because Vitiate's attacks weren't as powerful when they were able to casually block it with their sabers? It's like you're just wanting me to accept that Vitiate's lightning is stronger just because you say so.
Check the above explanation. Heck, even Nyriss and Maglus could overwhelm lightsaber based defenses with their lightning and Vitiate is above them.

This debate should now be put to rest. Vitiate's lightning is superior because he can not just only disarm powerful Jedi with his lightning but also reduce them to pile of ash, should he wish to do so.

SIDIOUS 66

Vitiate taking out a greater number of battle-ready warriors simultaneously with his lightning, does not mean his lightning his greater than Sidious's anymore than Dooku taking out Ventress along with two other nightsisters with his lightning means that his lightning is greater than Sidious's, unless you can quantify how powerful the warriors are.

From what I seen, some of the jedi on the strike team didn't even manage to block Vitiate's lightning attack with their sabers, just as Ventress and the nightsister didn't manage to block Dooku's lightning attack with theirs.

SIDIOUS 66

Also,

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its from Resurrection, which I do not own nor am I inclined to spend money acquiring. I believe it to be too detailed to be fabricated however.

I use to own it, and I vaguely remember it mentioning Vader sensing the dark side was strong there, but I think it was because he was sensing the presence of Maul and the Dark prophets, not because the planet was a dark side nexus. I could be wrong though.

However, you implied that it was a very strong nexus, but yet you are not even sure if it was a nexus at all?

Nephthys

According to Wookieepedia the nexus was strong enough to lure a Baron Yorn there, who wished to conduct experiments on a darkside nexus. However the darkside was strong enough to turn him mad, tearing out his own eyes and tongue.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vitiate taking out a greater number of battle-ready warriors simultaneously with his lightning, does not mean his lightning his greater than Sidious's anymore than Dooku taking out Ventress along with two other nightsisters with his lightning means that his lightning is greater than Sidious's, unless you can quantify how powerful the warriors are.

As I've told you, they were the strongest Jedi in the galaxy.

Nephthys

Originally posted by axel_jovan
@ Neph, I will reply when I'll have more time, so probably tomorrow or during the weekend.

In the meantime, prepare your anus. evil face

I'm still waiting for this. My anus can only clench in anticipation for so long.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But was killed by Palpatine's.

Yes, I've never denied that Sidious' lightning is more powerful than Starkillers.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
LMAO laughing

Vader's hand being cut off has nothing to do with the armor that protects his internal circuitry respirating systems. Vader took the full brunt of SK lightning attack to an opening in his chest plate. Sidious couldn't even properly attack Vader with the full brunt of his lightning, as the bolts were flying everywhere and majority of them were missing Vader, and yet Palpatine still did more damage to him than SK did.

Well his chestplate has nothing to do with his internal circuitry respirating systems either. Unless you mean purely in terms of access to it. In which case:

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/7/74/Vader_blueprint.jpg

Vaders body is connected throughout via these cables and wires that you see. Though really the breach in his suit from the severed hand should allow electricity to travel through it to the rest of his body adequately even without huge wires allowing electricity to travel to every part of his body. Its the only reason why despite Vaders armor being insulated as you say, Sidious' lightning was able to access him so completely that his skeleton lit up. Though really the lightning hardly needed to reach his respiration systems although it clearly did. Vader has a number of implants in his major organs that are essential to his survival and damage to any of them are a ticket to ****edville.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Palpatine damaged him beyond repair, and I believe there is a source that says it as well (I'll try to find it asap), but in the movie Vader flat out says that nothing can stop him from dying, whereas he ended up surviving SK's attack.

http://aceattorneyspain.com/Sprites/Klavier-S/klavier-lean%28a%29.gif

Yes. Whats your point?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
A different attack of lightning. Palpatine's second lightning attack was likely more powerful, as the first one was an in the split of the moment reaction after recovering from nearly falling off the edge and dropping his saber.

http://aceattorneyspain.com/Sprites/Klavier-S/klavier-snaps%28a%29.gif

Except that the scripts says that he 'recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY'. Recovering =/= a desperate attack. And Yoda continuously deals with that attack, not only in the split second that you suggest Palpatine was not at full power. The script itself notes that Palpatine 'recovers' and yet that 'The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor.' Begin as in they weren't previously, indicating that Yoda was in fact dealing with Palpatines lightning better as the attack continued.

I'm sorry, but your point is mere speculation to handwave a clear contradiction, whereas mine has actual evidence on its side.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
To believe that Yoda was taken by surprise the second time is outright retarded. Yoda was in combat position with both hands gripped to his saber, and knew Sidious had no lightsaber to defend himself, therefore Yoda knew that Sidious had nothing but his force powers to rely on. Are you suggesting that Yoda had short term memory?

In their fight, Caedus managed to surprise Luke by using TK against him instead of the force lightning Luke was expecting. Its entirely possible that such a thing occurred here. In fact its rather logical, Sidious had previously failed to overwhelm him with his lightning and was at the time using TK against him.

http://aceattorneyspain.com/Sprites/Klavier-S/klavier-lean%28a%29.gif

And if he was expecting a lightning attack, why hold his lightsaber to the side, in the one place that it couldn't be used to protect his body from lightning? Why even have his lightsaber out at all if he's sooooo much better at blocking lightning with his hands. You yourself argue: 'It's standard for a jedi to have their sabers out if they are about to engage in a saber duel, or if it's the only way they can block energy attacks.' So isn't that a bit of a contradiction?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I already explained the difference.

Using a lightsaber is more dependent on one's physical strength, whereas absorbing it with your hands is dependent on one's force mastery and raw force power. When Windu was deflecting Sidious lightning with his blade, the novel said he had no more strength left to fight his own blade. Using a lightsaber to block an attack is limited to one's physical strength.

http://aceattorneyspain.com/Sprites/Klavier-S/klavier-objects%28a%29.gif

Objection! Your explanations are not canon facts buster!

Any actual proof to support this theory? There is clearly an element of strength involved yet also clearly just as much an element of force use. In DoE Zannah chooses whether she wants to absorb Bane's lightning or 'slap aside the violet bolts of lightning rather than trying to absorb them'. There is clearly the ability to choose here, indicating conscious force use, indicating that it isn't as simple as holding up a lightsaber and using strength to resist it. Also, 'strength' can just as easily refer to force strength as to strength of arms.

BTW, in Rule of Two and Dynasty of Evil blocking lightning is described as thus, 'and her arms and blades became a blur as they carved figure eights in the air to catch and absorb the bolts of dark side energy' and 'The woman countered by catching the bolt with one of her lightsaber blades. It absorbed the energy, emitting the strange, high-pitched hum Serra had heard earlier.' What exactly is the difference between absorbing into and onto? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Jerkiness? Again, the first lightning attack looked more to me that he pushed his arm back in preparation to redirect the lightning. The second attack was longer and Yoda had his hand stationary the entire time until he fully absorbed the entire attack.

Yes, his arm gets thrown back in a jerky motion by the impact of the bolt. Him dealing with the second attack is probably because he was better amping his strength to deal with the impact.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yoda was in the middle of combat, there is not reason to assume that he was no longer using the force to enhance his physicality, especially when he knew Palpatine was capable of attacking him with lightning, which causes a forceful impact.

Except to save on energy. As I've said Ataru is extremely effort intensive to use and even more so for Yoda who because of his weak physicality must boost himself considerable and expend great energy to keep up and excel. Its only logical that he wouldn't be constantly boosting himself in battle when he doesn't actually need to to save on energy.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, being forced back a step compares to stumbling backwards.

http://aceattorneyspain.com/Sprites/Klavier-S/klavier-snaps%28a%29.gif

I know.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
As I said, Yoda kept better balance when he was absorbing the lightning with his hands, despite the fact that Palpatine was closing in on him.

Not true. Despite clearly putting more effort into it, he was still forced back by it physically.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, because you're going by your retarded explanation. Mine is the only one that makes sense.

Your explanations are the retarded ones. I'm actually using evidence to support my theories whereas you're just offering bullshit handwaves and unsupported speculation.

Its more strength intensive to block with a lightsaber than with your hands? ****ing prove it.

Yoda was being overwhelmed in a scene where George mother****ing Lucas himself says that it looks like Sidious is doomed? Offer a millimeter of actual evidence.

Yoda attempted to block Sidious' lightning? You have no proof at all.

You haven't offered me a single shred of evidence throughout this entire debate. The only reason why I'm still bothering to respond to your half-baked nonsense is because I've got nothing better to do while I wait for axel to actually debate with me.

Nephthys

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Have you seen the movie "Envaders from Mars"? If not, you can google it. But anyway, there is a scene where a teacher, whose mind was taken over by aliens, tried to kidnap this little boy. Well she failed and the boy managed to escape, and then the teacher shouts out in irritation "I will get you David Gardner" because of her failure to capture him. She didn't say "eventually." Stop being ridiculous, Neph.

Yoda manages to hold on to his saber and bend back Palpatine's lightning for a bit, and the scripts says Palpatine looked as if he was doomed, then Yoda says "destroy you I will" and retreats right after, which seems to suggest that Yoda didn't have faith in continuing containing the lightning any further. So regardless of whether or not Palpatine looked as if he was doomed, it is irrelevant if Yoda could not continue to bend back Palpatine's lightning any longer.

Thats an entirely different situation and you know it. She wasn't speaking from a clear position of superiority as Yoda was. She had not disarmed him moments before. She was not successfully beating back his attack and her scream was one of frustration while everything points to Yoda's being one of confidence. Note how in your example she didn't shout it in frustration as he was escaping, but afterwards. Because during she was focused on trying to catch him. Just as if Yoda was failing to block Sidious' lightning he would logically need all his concentration of continue doing so. Not boasting of his victory.

This is complete speculation. Everything points to Yoda having the clear upper hand in that engagement. The script itself, Lucas himself, points this out. There is nothing written in the script to suggest he was being overwhelmed. No indication of tiredness or weakness on his part. He wasn't just blocking Sidious' lightning, but was actually turning it back on him. Deal with it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Prolonged? How long did Yoda manage? 3 seconds? 5 seconds? The script certainly didn't mention it, and it definitely didn't suggest that it was prolonged.

Long enough for Sidious' lightning to begin to turn back on himself and for Yoda to say 'Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.' So I dunno, 10 seconds? Its a hell of a lot longer than 'not at all' in the later scene.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And prove it is a more difficult task of accomplishing with your hands. Evidently, in Yoda's case, it wasn't.

http://aceattorneyspain.com/Sprites/Klavier-S/klavier-forwardhair%28g%29.gif

According to the ultimate visual guide, blocking Force Lightning with your hands is nearly impossible. I don't have the guide myself, but the source is Tempest who just finished chewing me out for dishonesty so I'm fairly sure hes on the straight and narrow.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If Yoda was exhausted when he attempted to block it with his saber, then he would have also been exhausted when he was absorbing it with his hands, which would contradict both your claims that blocking it with a saber is easier, and that absorbing it does not reduce the physical impact behind the attack, considering that he kept better balance while absorbing it even though Palpatine was closing in on him.

I'm talking physically. Just to show you that even if you're right about it being all about strength that I can still easily counter it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It's standard for a jedi to have their sabers out if they are about to engage in a saber duel, or if it's the only way they can block energy attacks.

Or if they're going to get into a fight, which duh they were. And as I've pointed out, Yoda attempts to block lightning twice in the duel in preference over using his hands.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But Yoda can evidently defend against force attacks with his force mastery better than he can with a saber.

Proof? Anything? No, I didn't think so.

If this is true, why did Yoda have his hands on his cane instead of at the ready to block force attacks. Everything in that scene points of Yoda being retardedly at ease. He didn't have his lightsaber out, didn't have his hands in a position ready to block and was speaking lightly and arrogantly. Its hardly a stretch to say that he didn't have his force defenses up as well.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So, no, Yoda not having his saber out is "not even more stupid." Sidious was several feet from him, and didn't even have his saber out, so Yoda had no need to have his saber out at that moment. At the distance Yoda was standing from Sidious, he was most likely to be attacked by a force attack. And to suggest that Yoda had no force defense up is retarded.

I could just as easily turn this around and replace saber with 'force defense'. It is just as stupid because Yoda has no idea of his capabilities. Not having his lightsaber out leaves him right open to Sidious rushing him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not when it's standard for a jedi to have their force defenses up when they are about to engage another force user. So if you want to claim that Yoda just randomly decided to have his force defenses lowered when he was standing in the presence of a force user whose force power rivaled his own, then it's up to you to prove it. And not having his saber out, is not proof that he had his force defense lowered.

No it isn't. Its standard for them to have their lightsabers out and yet Yoda didn't have his out. The fact that Yoda, in your opinion, raised his hands to block the lightning suggests that he didn't have Force defenses up. Otherwise why would he raise his hands to defend himself?

And no, theres no proof of anything either way. Which is why the entire point is irrelevent and its impossible for you to prove your case. Theres nothing you can do to indicate that he had his defenses up. The scene doesn't even take place in the book. You cannot prove your point. Thats a fact.

http://aceattorneyspain.com/Sprites/Klavier-S/klavier-guitars.gif

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious said one sentence after his attack started wane. That hardly suggests a prolong attack.

How powerful was the nexus? Do you have a quote or source? Btw, majority of Vitiate's lightning feats all took place on a dark side nexus as well, even when Revan described it as being infinitely more powerful than Nyriss's, am I correct?

Proof that the attack 'waned'?

I've provided my source and the power of the nexus. Vitiates feat taking place on a nexus is irrelevent. Nyriss' empowered attack would have been blunted by her equally empowered defense.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Didn't you just claim that a prolong attack suggests effort? Well it took Vitiate two attacks of gathered energy and several seconds to put them out.

I said that it suggests. Which it does. However I don't make canon, do I? I also argued how the fight can be seen to be efforless on Vitiates part.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Because he wasn't a match for Palpatine power. He opened himself up to the force and commited a suicide attack by throwing everything he had at Sidious, which left Sidious unharmed and still standing.

http://aceattorneyspain.com/Sprites/Klavier-S/klavier-pounds%28a%29.gif

And despite not being a match for Sidious' power he was able to walk through his attack and physically grab Sidious.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious was unable to successfully attack Vader with the full brunt of his lightning. But so what? Vader's far more durable than any of the jedi on the strike team, and is likely more powerful than them as well.

http://aceattorneyspain.com/Sprites/Klavier-S/klavier-laughs.gif

More powerful than them put together? Don't be ridiculous. Plus he wasn't blocking him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Umm, yeah.

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j191/bo123544/facepalm.png

Feel Edgeworths facepalm.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
There is no way in hell Vitiate would "effortlessly" take out Yoda. Yoda is on par with Sidious, who can easily overpower force users in the prime of the jedi order (Maul and Savage come to mind) just as easily as Vitiate can overpower force users of his era.

Give me some feats of theirs with full context which would suggest that they even begin to approach Yoda. And I'm not interested in a list of opponents HoT defeated if they lack context. Not too many force users rival Sidious and Yoda, and I'm not just going to assume they do just because they are called some of the most talented jedi of their time.

Well Sidious took Maul and Savage by surprise and merely pinned them for a few seconds. Plus theres nothing saying he did so easily. And 4 is twice as many as 2 last time I checked. Finally, Sidious used TK to do that, not Force Lightning.

Actually its 'strongest, most powerful and most resolute.' And no, I'm not going to do that. I've done that ****ing tons of times. I refuse to do it again.

Nephthys

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yoda puts his hand out in an attempt to block it,

Proof of that interpretation?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
and as I said, it's a standard thing to do for a jedi to have their force defenses raised when they are about to engage another force user in battle.

http://aceattorneyspain.com/Sprites/Klavier-S/klavier-lean%28a%29.gif

O RLY?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Maybe Yoda did not bring his full power to bare in an effort to absorb the lightning, but that doesn't mean he didn't put up a force barrier or defense up. Regardless, Yoda is more powerful than them, and it took one short blast of Palpatine's lightning to render him unconscious. So, yeah if Sidious can do that to one of the most powerful jedi in history, then he can definitely take out a bunch of featless jedi if he uses two prolonged lightning attacks. Definitely.

So you rate a half-hearted Yoda who wasn't taking his opponent seriously, who may or may not have had his defenses up, who may have been surprised or only able to mount a token defense.... over 4 of the strongest Jedi in the galaxy at the same time.

http://aceattorneyspain.com/Sprites/Klavier-S/klavier-laughs.gif

Sounds totally legit.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So they had their force defenses up because they had their sabers out, but Yoda didn't have his up because he didn't have his saber out?

Yes. When they are actually engaging in ****ing battle its a safe assumption that they'll have their defenses up. When Yoda isn't engaging in battle, you need to show that he did have his defenses up.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Except one didn't manage the second attack, whereas the other one only managed to because Sidious was pretending to be weak and stopped his attack.

Proof that Sidious only stopped because he pretended to be weak? I mean, he was getting his face melted.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Blocking with a light saber is not the same as absorbing lightning with your hands, which is something that only the most powerful force users are capable of. Being able to contain lightning with a saber depends mostly on the wielders strength and how powerful the lightning is. Both Windu and Yoda are physically strong force users, and yet struggled to contain Sidious lightning with their sabers, whereas HoT and Revan casually handled Vitiate's lightning with theirs.

Let me guess, you want me to assume that HoT and Revan are physically stronger than Yoda and Mace just because you say so, right?

Wow, I'm still looking for some proof of any of this. It mostly seems to just be you stating your opinion. Which is nice I suppose.

No, I want you to look at the evidence and form a logical conclusion from it. Vitiates lightning is incredibly powerful. At the least it is as powerful as Sidious' own lightning. It is infinitely more powerful than lightning which disintegrates opponents. Its easily subdued 4 of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy at the same time. In my opinion its more powerful than Sidious'. But if you really want to lowball it, can you at least admit that its nearly as powerful as Sidious'? If so, the comparative ease with which Revan and the HoT blocked it does indeed indicate that they are immensely strong individuals. Right?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
How much did his lightning improve?

Would you like a percentage? Whats the point of this question, its indeterminable. But you cannot argue that Revan blocking it makes it weak when Vitiate has 3 entire centuries to improve.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But he was also on a dark side nexus where a dark siders powers are enhanced while a light siders powers are diminished.

When Palpatine's body was almost ready to die out on Byss, a dark side nexus, he was capable of disintegrating Leia's lightsaber, and shrugged off the crushing impact of over a ton of machinery, seemingly disintegrating it as well. Why would Vitiate's power be affected by exhaustion, especially when he would have an immense power supply to replenish himself with?

So? He was still ****ing exhausted.

Whaaa? No he wasn't about to die. He was walking around and talking just fine. Theres no indication of weakness of his part. In contrast Vitiate was on his knees and wheezing.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And your arguments are weak. The fact that you are trying to give me so many different explanations instead of sticking to one stance, suggests that you are wanting to force your opinion, that Vitiate's lightning is more powerful, on me.

http://aceattorneyspain.com/Sprites/Klavier-S/klavier-forwardmad%28a%29.gif

No. I'm offering different arguments because you're so goddamn stubborn that you just won't accept my actual arguments. So I'm offering you ones in the hopes that you'll actually listen for once. Otherwise theres no point in continuing the arguement. I've made my case, you just aren't listening to it. Theres only so many times I can say the same argument to you. Otherwise my argument would just be:

'They're just powerful'

'Nah'

'They're just powerful'

'Nah'

'They're just powerful'

'Nah'

'They're just powerful'

'Nah'

'They're just powerful'

'Nah'

'They're just powerful'

'Nah'

ad infinitum.

But I'm probably not going to bother responding to you anymore. It's too much effort to waste on someone so close minded and biased.