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VS


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The whole snake family from MGS. team up and fight teenage mutant ninja turtles.


Solid snake got a only a knife so does Liquid snake, and Big boss. While Solidus Snake has two sword. and the Turles got their weapons


the battie take place on the empty streets.

whom wins??

Solidus may be a challenge, he was able to deflect machine gun fire with ease but then he got ass railed by Raiden. MGS is weird with it's bosses and antognist

Snake, Big Boss and Liquid get ass railed in about 5 seconds though. Mateus, the current writer for the Ninja Turtles has stated that they are low end super human. Liquid did survive an explosion but he suffered burns so it's more pain tolerance, and that doesn't help defend against getting decapitated.

The snakes eat the turtles.

TURTLE POWER!!

Originally posted by BloodRain
The snakes eat the turtles. Before or after they get decapitated?

Before, would be awkward to swallow after.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Before, would be awkward to swallow after.


bloodrain but the turles got really good skils and feat

what does snake family has over the turles?

Originally posted by BloodRain
Before, would be awkward to swallow after. It's going to be hard to swallow anything when the Snake's head fly off their shoulders. But don't worry, their deaths will be fast and painless.

Originally posted by EmptyHearted
bloodrain but the turles got really good skils and feat

what does snake family has over the turles? They have nothing, bloodrain is just an idiot. the turtles are low end superhuman were the snakes aren't even peak except for solids with his exoskeleton, and their vastly more skilled also.

Originally posted by EmptyHearted
bloodrain but the turles got really good skils and feat

what does snake family has over the turles?
Just got bored and went for a metaphor

Right, well speed should be a moot point for starters. All characters have bullet dodging feats though I doubt the Turtles have feats on the MGS rail gun level, which Raigen was able to just barely react to. So yeah, about even.

Skills is a tricky one. The turtles are well trained in the classic martial arts mixed with ninja acrobatics, while the Snakes skill have been used to take down enemies much more powerful than themselves, including fast enemies with bladed weapons. And as we all know, flashy skills means little in being practical. Personally giving the skill to the Turtles. Not in some Master vs street thug way, but likely a notable difference.

Strength is the same as speed afaik, besides Solidus being physically the strongest guy here by a lot. Not sure if Solid has used brute strength on Metal Gears or not..

I know Splinter goes on about a weapon only being as good as the wielder, but in a situation when the skills this close, a blade is going to hurt more than a staff. Every Snake has a fang, when two Turtles (unless counting the new cartoon) have blunt, wooden weapons. Many hits to K.O or kill vs being stabbed and cut.


TL;DR.. I'd say skill goes slightly in the Turtles favour, while strength and weapons go slightly in the Snakes.

but you well aware that I give Solid snake and Liquid snake and big boss a knife only while solidus snake has two sword. I wanna this keep in close combat..

Yup, thats why I didn't mention the advantage of having guns and other weapons.

What's say we make it a bit more interesting and give each snake a revolver and the turtles get casey jones.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Just got bored and went for a metaphor

Right, well speed should be a moot point for starters. All characters have bullet dodging feats though I doubt the Turtles have feats on the MGS rail gun level, which Raigen was able to just barely react to. So yeah, about even.

Skills is a tricky one. The turtles are well trained in the classic martial arts mixed with ninja acrobatics, while the Snakes skill have been used to take down enemies much more powerful than themselves, including fast enemies with bladed weapons. And as we all know, flashy skills means little in being practical. Personally giving the skill to the Turtles. Not in some Master vs street thug way, but likely a notable difference.

Strength is the same as speed afaik, besides Solidus being physically the strongest guy here by a lot. Not sure if Solid has used brute strength on Metal Gears or not..

I know Splinter goes on about a weapon only being as good as the wielder, but in a situation when the skills this close, a blade is going to hurt more than a staff. Every Snake has a fang, when two Turtles (unless counting the new cartoon) have blunt, wooden weapons. Many hits to K.O or kill vs being stabbed and cut.


TL;DR.. I'd say skill goes slightly in the Turtles favour, while strength and weapons go slightly in the Snakes. Right, except that none of the Snakes except for Solidus are bullet timers and don't have a single bullet timing feat. You're right, the turtles don't have feats dodging a rail gun shot, which is 1/4 the speed of a hand gun bullet. I'm not sure who Raigen is...if you can't even spell then name right then you shouldn't even be posting here.

And at what point did any of the Snakes take down opponents more powerful than they are without weaponry or circumstances? Oh yeah...Never...and it's the opposite with Solidus, he was taken down by Raiden who's LESS Powerful than he is

strength is the same, agreed, because the turtles that are low level super human are def the same as guys who can't break hand cuffs or prison bars and get steamrolled by fat black guys and guys who can't break concrete..makes total sense /rolls eyes
Solidus is probably the weakest person here since he doesn't have any feats without his exo skeleton

seriously I know it must be hard for you to function without a 3rd grade education but it's pretty obvious that you haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about. Go away please

So why do you keep on socking this forum?

I wonder if Big Boss was able to retain his manhood after he was corn holed by Cunningham and Volgin.

No but why do you continue to sock the forum after being banned?

LOL WTF@Solid/Liquid/Big Boss just having knives.

http://i42.tinypic.com/8x3jog.jpg

Here's a picture of Cocoon trying, and failing, to crush Big Boss.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
LOL WTF@Solid/Liquid/Big Boss just having knives.

Solidus is the only one to show any genuine skill with swords, while the other three have shown skill with knives. And them having guns would be unfair, as they could just shoot the turtles before they close the distance.

I'll be frank. I was thinking the Snakes just oneshot the turtles.

Its still funny how they just get knives. Just have them fist fight the turtles.

They wouldn't oneshot many versions of the turtles. I don't know what they're doing in comics now. But aside from the original 80's toon, most versions would give the Snake's great fights. Especially the 03 version who were blatantly superhuman, the 12' version(current toon), and the versions in between.

I mean I watched the cartoons as a kid but I don't recall the Turtles feats. Honestly Solid can solo.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
I'll be frank. I was thinking the Snakes just oneshot the turtles.

Its still funny how they just get knives. Just have them fist fight the turtles. Since the version is stated I'd assume this is the current comic version, that are confirmed low level superhumans and can casually deflect bullets and lasers with their weapons like Solidus did, except they don't need to rely on an exo skeleton.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer

Here's a picture of Cocoon trying, and failing, to crush Big Boss.

gameplay mechanic, in that same game Big Boss was unable to break chains and was taken down by 4 soldiers, captured and tortured by Strangelove. Try again troll

Originally posted by KingD19
They wouldn't oneshot many versions of the turtles. I don't know what they're doing in comics now. But aside from the original 80's toon, most versions would give the Snake's great fights. Especially the 03 version who were blatantly superhuman, the 12' version(current toon), and the versions in between. Outside of the live film versions and possible the 80's cartoons, with any other versions any single Turtle would solo in under a minute. Solidus would be the only one who would survive one on one longer.

Originally posted by Based
I mean I watched the cartoons as a kid but I don't recall the Turtles feats. Honestly Solid can solo. Snake couldn't even solo 3 Genome soldiers. On top of that no one in MGS even tried to kill Snake because they needed him alive to activate the pal codes.

Snake, Big Boss and most MGS characters are quivering pussies when their feats are put into context. The sad thing is that the moderately superhuman characters like Solidus and Gene end up losing to these quivering pussies.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
What's say we make it a bit more interesting and give each snake a revolver and the turtles get casey jones.
Guns are a game-changing advantage. A strong human with clubs is not.
Originally posted by VoidLord
Right, except that none of the Snakes except for Solidus are bullet timers and don't have a single bullet timing feat. You're right, the turtles don't have feats dodging a rail gun shot, which is 1/4 the speed of a hand gun bullet. I'm not sure who Raigen is...if you can't even spell then name right then you shouldn't even be posting here.

And at what point did any of the Snakes take down opponents more powerful than they are without weaponry or circumstances? Oh yeah...Never...and it's the opposite with Solidus, he was taken down by Raiden who's LESS Powerful than he is

strength is the same, agreed, because the turtles that are low level super human are def the same as guys who can't break hand cuffs or prison bars and get steamrolled by fat black guys and guys who can't break concrete..makes total sense /rolls eyes
Solidus is probably the weakest person here since he doesn't have any feats without his exo skeleton

seriously I know it must be hard for you to function without a 3rd grade education but it's pretty obvious that you haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about. Go away please

A sock? Yay :T Yeah cept they're not? And yep, a simple typo means everything.

All the time.

Meaning what for feats?

No feats posted for the Turtles side, nice job~ If you think the Turtles win then tell me how. I've already admitted imo that its about even, so if you have Turtle feats post them. Would prefer them to win anyhow.

I figured the snakes could use a little extra help..

Big Boss and Solid Snake can probably punch the knives through their shells.

Actually I don't know shit about Turtles besides the old cartoon and the movies. Like BloodRain said, post some feats guys. Or at least mention them. don't just generalize "lol they iz superhuman and snakes r weak and everything they've done is null and BS"

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Big Boss and Solid Snake can probably punch the knives through their shells.

Actually I don't know shit about Turtles besides the old cartoon and the movies. Like BloodRain said, post some feats guys. Or at least mention them. don't just generalize "lol they iz superhuman and snakes r weak and everything they've done is null and BS"

ummm they beat the Shredder

They got lucky against kevin Nash uhuh

Originally posted by Zack Fair
They got lucky against kevin Nash uhuh


kevin nash?? that WWE xdd

what next UndertaKer vs solid snake at wrestlemania

Kevin Nash played Super Shredder in TMNT 2.

Spite against Snake. Taker is god at Wrestlemania.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Guns are a game-changing advantage. A strong human with clubs is not.


A sock? Yay :T Yeah cept they're not? And yep, a simple typo means everything.

All the time.

Meaning what for feats?

No feats posted for the Turtles side, nice job~ If you think the Turtles win then tell me how. I've already admitted imo that its about even, so if you have Turtle feats post them. Would prefer them to win anyhow. An idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about. Yay ^_^

Where are those bullet timing feats you're talking about. You said that all of the Snakes are bullet timers but you can't find a single bullet timing feat for 3 of them meaning you're full of shit.

I don't need feats for the Turtles, their writer Mateus already stated they are low end super human, they're able to casually deflect lasers with their weapons. How about the Snakes? Getting taken down by 3-4 soldiers isn't a feat, neither is getting cornholed by an overweight cripple

I know that you've never played any of the games, so you aren't qualified to speak here. Go away idiot

Hilarious.

I wonder, after Snake got ass railed by Vamp, who can't even bullet time, was he able to retain his manhood?



http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc384/King_Bradley/vamprapessnake.png

Well..at least it isn't as bad as Big Boss getting corn holed by Cunningham

I thought Vamp blocked bullets with his knife in MGS2?

lol. He even dances around them mocking the opposition.

Funny though because he doesn't even need to dodge them.

Originally posted by VoidLord
I don't need feats for the Turtles, their writer Mateus already stated they are low end super human, they're able to casually deflect lasers with their weapons.
^The only thing posted that was close to a feat or argument.

No one argued they weren't, so that was pointless. And fictional lasers highly vary in speed, so unless youre claiming FTL Turtles come back with a solid speed feat.

Though "I don't need feats for the Turtles" somewhat proves you're just here for your anti-Snake mission.

Originally posted by KingD19
I thought Vamp blocked bullets with his knife in MGS2? people think this, i thought he did until you look at it in context. we dont hear the sound of bullets flailing off of his knife, we don't see any sparks of impact and Vamp spun toward the Navy Seal, at times his knife facing the opposite direction and it would of been impossible for him to have deflected bullets because his back would of been facing the Seal while his knife is being held in front. If anything he dodged them since he can tell where the gun is pointing before its fired.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
lol. He even dances around them mocking the opposition.

Funny though because he doesn't even need to dodge them.

lol he dances around them mocking the opposition. That is until Raiden grazed him in the face because Vamp's gimmicky ability to read muscles was partially nullified by his suit. Last I checked bullet timers don't get grazed in the face

Originally posted by BloodRain
^The only thing posted that was close to a feat or argument.

No one argued they weren't, so that was pointless. And fictional lasers highly vary in speed, so unless youre claiming FTL Turtles come back with a solid speed feat.

Though "I don't need feats for the Turtles" somewhat proves you're just here for your anti-Snake mission.

What do you mean no one argued they weren't? I'm arguing it right now, you said they were when they really aren't because only one of them have actual bullet timing feats and that's because he uses an exo skeleton. End of story.

I never argued that they were FTL, But they're still better than anything the Snakes have to offer since it only takes 3-4 soldiers to take them down in a direct fight.

Originally posted by VoidLord
What do you mean no one argued they weren't? I'm arguing it right now, you said they were when they really aren't because only one of them have actual bullet timing feats and that's because he uses an exo skeleton. End of story.

I never argued that they were FTL, But they're still better than anything the Snakes have to offer since it only takes 3-4 soldiers to take them down in a direct fight.
I don't recall anyone in this thread saying that the Turtles are not superhuman, what is what I was talking about. Feats would be nice.

Then its fictional laser speed, which could be sub-bullet speed for all we know (sub-sonic lasers have come up a lot). So more on that would help.


Also (Chozone?) just remembered we we're discussing that railgun and its megajoules. What's your counter to the joules on a railgun being based on its speed (Forgot about that thread)? And if Solidus in the suit is supersonic, doesnt this means his own reactions are up there? Or is it stated the skeleton amps his reactions? And what about Raiden defeating Solidus in his suit?

Originally posted by BloodRain
I don't recall anyone in this thread saying that the Turtles are not superhuman, what is what I was talking about. Feats would be nice.

Then its fictional laser speed, which could be sub-bullet speed for all we know (sub-sonic lasers have come up a lot). So more on that would help.


Also (Chozone?) just remembered we we're discussing that railgun and its megajoules. What's your counter to the joules on a railgun being based on its speed (Forgot about that thread)? And if Solidus in the suit is supersonic, doesnt this means his own reactions are up there? Or is it stated the skeleton amps his reactions? And what about Raiden defeating Solidus in his suit? I wasn't talking about the turtles, I was talking about the Snakes, you said that they have bullet dodging feats when none of them except for Solidus have ever bullet timed, making you full of shit or proving that you've never played the games and haven't the slighest clue what you're talking about.

The rail gun had 10 mega joules, mega joule is a measurement of output and not a measurement of speed. I've seen weapons with greater megajoules that have slower projectile velocity than weapons with lower megajoules, so suck it.

No, because if you played the games you'd know that their's tech in MGS that gave the Arsenal Tengu increased reaction time which let them parry bullets with swords. All of Solidus' feats have been with his exo skeleton.

Originally posted by VoidLord
I wasn't talking about the turtles, I was talking about the Snakes, you said that they have bullet dodging feats when none of them except for Solidus have ever bullet timed, making you full of shit or proving that you've never played the games and haven't the slighest clue what you're talking about.

No, because if you played the games you'd know that their's tech in MGS that gave the Arsenal Tengu increased reaction time which let them parry bullets with swords. All of Solidus' feats have been with his exo skeleton.
You said the Turtles are superhuman, I said no ones denying that.

Sure you can post something that says his amps reaction. Just to prove the point.
If human-Raiden is a supersonic/hypersonic, wouldn't powerscaling mean characters on his level then are also that fast, or at least approaching?
Originally posted by VoidLord
The rail gun had 10 mega joules, mega joule is a measurement of output and not a measurement of speed. I've seen weapons with greater megajoules that have slower projectile velocity than weapons with lower megajoules, so suck it.
Except that for non-explosive projectiles the joules only comes from the weight and speed, and looking back it works for every example you gave yourself;

"3VBM7 variation of 125 MM smoothbore ammo muzzle energy of 6.2 mj and move at 1780 m/S"
>3VBM7 weighs 3.9kg = ((1,780m/s^2)*3.9kg)/ 2 = 6.178 MJ, so 6.2.

"3VBM6 vartiation has a muzzle energy of 5.8 mj but moves at 1800 m/s"
>3VBM6 weighs 3.6kg = ((1,800m/s^2)*3.6kg)/ 2 = 5.832 MJ, so 5.8.

"The smoothbore tank gun that was mentioned in MGS has a megajoule output and yet only has a velocity of 1580 M/s"
'Incidentally, that of a 140mm smooth bore gun ammunition is twenty megajoules.'
>A 120mm weighs around 20kg = ((1,580m/s^2)*20kg)/ 2 = 24.964 MJ, so 25 MJ.
I assume you used the 120mm for the speed posted, which can also go up to 1,750m/s. 140mm is probably slower and heavier, so output wont be drastically different.



In other words for every ammo example you gave, its weight and speed match up with its output. And in the exact same vein, the MGS Railguns output is over 10 MJ. For the slowest speeds we'd assume a large weight of 3 kg, leaving the speed as 2,582m/s.

Originally posted by BloodRain
You said the Turtles are superhuman, I said no ones denying that.

Sure you can post something that says his amps reaction. Just to prove the point.
If human-Raiden is a supersonic/hypersonic, wouldn't powerscaling mean characters on his level then are also that fast, or at least approaching?

Except that for non-explosive projectiles the joules only comes from the weight and speed, and looking back it works for every example you gave yourself;

"3VBM7 variation of 125 MM smoothbore ammo muzzle energy of 6.2 mj and move at 1780 m/S"
>3VBM7 weighs 3.9kg = ((1,780m/s^2)*3.9kg)/ 2 = 6.178 MJ, so 6.2.

"3VBM6 vartiation has a muzzle energy of 5.8 mj but moves at 1800 m/s"
>3VBM6 weighs 3.6kg = ((1,800m/s^2)*3.6kg)/ 2 = 5.832 MJ, so 5.8.

"The smoothbore tank gun that was mentioned in MGS has a megajoule output and yet only has a velocity of 1580 M/s"
'Incidentally, that of a 140mm smooth bore gun ammunition is twenty megajoules.'
>A 120mm weighs around 20kg = ((1,580m/s^2)*20kg)/ 2 = 24.964 MJ, so 25 MJ.
I assume you used the 120mm for the speed posted, which can also go up to 1,750m/s. 140mm is probably slower and heavier, so output wont be drastically different.



In other words for every ammo example you gave, its weight and speed match up with its output. And in the exact same vein, the MGS Railguns output is over 10 MJ. For the slowest speeds we'd assume a large weight of 3 kg, leaving the speed as 2,582m/s.

I'm not even talking about the turtles being superhuman, I'm referring to this quote you made and ONLY this quote

"All characters have bullet dodging feats"

This is what you said and this is what I'm refuting, it either means you're full of shit or that you haven't played the games, pick your poison.

Human Raiden isn't supersonic or hypersonic either, again you're pulling things out of your ass.

http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Solidus_Snake%27s_exoskeleton

A megajoule is a measurement of kinetic energy. Not a measurement of weight and speed. 1 Megajoule is equal to a 1000lb vehicle moving at 100 miles per hour, if you had 10 megajoules you'd have 10x the kinetic output.

You're basing the speed of the rail gun projectile SOLELY off the fact that it has 10 megajoules of kintectic energy, even though it's been shown already that more Megajoules does NOT equal greater velocity.

Your argument is simply stating that more megajoules = more speed, which is nonsense

If a 3VBM6 has 5.8 Megajoules and fires at 1800 m/s
and the 3VBM7 has an MJ of 6.2 and fires at 1780 m/s than MJ aren't relevant in terms of measuring speed. And the ammo for these two canons are nearly identical, So you're essentially pulling numbers from your ass.

Just for the record, the Navy uses a rail gun to hit velocities between 2000-3500 m/s. The MJ they use range from 5-50, 50 MJ can reach an M/S of 2000 and 5 3000. Again MJ = irrelevant

Your math is spot on, the reason why the math you posted doesn't apply to the MGS Rail gun is because you're missing 2 parts. With the smooth bore examples you posted, you have the MJ, the ammo weight and the velocity.

With the MGS Rail gun you have the MJ, Missing the ammo weight, and missing the velocity to check if it adds up.

I also lol'd when you mentioned non explosive rounds, because the rail gun in MGS ARE explosive, on top of that because there is no portable rail gun that a man can use in real life, we don't even know the type of ammo it uses either. The only thing we know that's concrete is that Fortune fired her rail gun at Raiden and it took an entire second to traverse 100-200 feet. Making it significantly slower than a handgun bullet.

I went further into the MJ argument.

A megajoule is a measurement of ENERGY. Not a measurement of speed.

Here are types of used with the 125mm smoothbore

3VBM9 and 3VBM10

Both weight 6.55 kg with the sabots, both have a Megajoule of 7.0

The M10 has a velocity of 1700 M/s where the M9 is 1760. Same weight, same MJ, different velocities hence MJ meaning dick when it comes to velocity.


The problem with your math is that you can't apply to MGS 's rail gun. You don't even know what type of ammo it uses since there is no real life portable rail gun to compare it to. You're missing the ammo weight, and you're missing the distance.

The Real Life Navy uses rail guns to reach speeds between 2000-3500 m/s, their MJ ranges from 5-50, and if you only get 3500 m/s from 50 MJ than that further proves my point. MJ =/= velocity.

I also mentioned earlier that 1 MJ is equal to a 1000lb vehicle moving 100mph, which comes to 1466 feet per second. An ammo round would be significantly smaller but would only move about 4x as fast as an object hundreds of times larger and heavier. So MJ really aren't relevant in terms of determining speed.

Originally posted by VoidLord
Thats nice and all, cept you this part was about your quote on the Turtles. Ah well.

Quote where I said that or anything close? Only said people on Raiden's speed class should have similar speed, a guy you said is a bullet timer in the other thread, who has also got feats and defeated characters with those feats.

Wait, if he has supersonic feats in the suit, and he was in that suit both against Raiden and in this thread, wont those feats stand for something?
Originally posted by VoidLord
Megajoule = 1,000,000 Joules. Joules as Kinetic Energy = (kg*m/s^2)/ 2.
If the object is heavier or faster, the joules increase. Exactly as all the ammo calcs prove, as all of them after a Joules calc give the already stated output.

A 3VBM7 weighs 3.9kg. Its velocity is 1,800m/s. ((1,800m/s^2)*3.6kg)/ 2 = 5.832 MJ ~ 5.8.
A 3VBM6 weighs 3.6kg. Its velocity is 1,780m/s. ((1,780m/s^2)*3.9kg)/ 2 = 6.178 MJ ~ 6.2.
The irl Joules calc stands and prove the relation between weight, speed and joules. All numbers are facts, my only input is the calc proving the already given data.

Ahh don't instantly believe things on wiki that lack references, because there is no 50 MJ railgun yet, just read the page. As of 2010 they hit the current record by firing a 32-33 MJ shot, and they're only working on but have not yet created a 64 MJ railgun.
That record breaker is stated to weigh 10.4kg and moved at around 2,500m/s. ((2,500^2)*10.4)/ 2 = 32.5 MJ.

The thing is I agree that I'm lacking the 'official' weight for the MGS Railgun, doesn't make it an impossible unknown though. 3MJ 'shells' are around 1kg. 10MJ are around 3kg. 30MJ are around 10kg. Its really likely that the MGS one would be 3kg from its MJ. This means we have a confirmed output and the highly likely weight. We only need these two to work backwards to find the velocity.
And it exploded from high velocity impact, not explosives. The same thing happens when IRL Railgun shells impact.
Originally posted by VoidLord
You're using the sabots, which is not included in the projectiles own velocity and force. As seen on the wiki page the M10 without the sabot is 4.85kg;
M10 with sabot- (6.55*1,700^2)/ 2 = 9.47 MJ
M10 w/o sabot- (4.85*1,700^2)/ 2 = 7 MJ <- as you posted, is the correct Joule figure.
So obviously we use it without the sabot. Doing the same with the M9 and we get- (4.485*1,760^2)/ 2 = 6.95 MJ. AKA rounded up to 7 MJ when using 1 decimal place, like the site. It still checks out.

Joules, weight, speed. If we have two we can get the third. For the MGS Railgun we have J and can logically assume the kg to be what it is from facts we know about railgun projectiles. As the only way for a 10 MJ Railgun to be, lets say, Mach 1 would be if it weighed 173kg. Its going to be clear into supersonic at the absolute least.
50 MJ countered above.

And no, that does not equal 1 MJ; 1,000lbs @ 100mph = 453.6kg @ 44.7m/s. (453.6*44.7^2)/ 2 = 0.45 MJ.
Same vehicle would need 150mph/220fps speed. To equal this output a 3 kg projectile would have to have a speed of 817m/s. Keep in mind the greatest factor of Joules is the speed.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Thats nice and all, cept you this part was about your quote on the Turtles. Ah well.

Quote where I said that or anything close? Only said people on Raiden's speed class should have similar speed, a guy you said is a bullet timer in the other thread, who has also got feats and defeated characters with those feats.

Wait, if he has supersonic feats in the suit, and he was in that suit both against Raiden and in this thread, wont those feats stand for something?

Megajoule = 1,000,000 Joules. Joules as Kinetic Energy = (kg*m/s^2)/ 2.
If the object is heavier or faster, the joules increase. Exactly as all the ammo calcs prove, as all of them after a Joules calc give the already stated output.

A 3VBM7 weighs 3.9kg. Its velocity is 1,800m/s. ((1,800m/s^2)*3.6kg)/ 2 = 5.832 MJ ~ 5.8.
A 3VBM6 weighs 3.6kg. Its velocity is 1,780m/s. ((1,780m/s^2)*3.9kg)/ 2 = 6.178 MJ ~ 6.2.
The irl Joules calc stands and prove the relation between weight, speed and joules. All numbers are facts, my only input is the calc proving the already given data.

Ahh don't instantly believe things on wiki that lack references, because there is no 50 MJ railgun yet, just read the page. As of 2010 they hit the current record by firing a 32-33 MJ shot, and they're only working on but have not yet created a 64 MJ railgun.
That record breaker is stated to weigh 10.4kg and moved at around 2,500m/s. ((2,500^2)*10.4)/ 2 = 32.5 MJ.

The thing is I agree that I'm lacking the 'official' weight for the MGS Railgun, doesn't make it an impossible unknown though. 3MJ 'shells' are around 1kg. 10MJ are around 3kg. 30MJ are around 10kg. Its really likely that the MGS one would be 3kg from its MJ. This means we have a confirmed output and the highly likely weight. We only need these two to work backwards to find the velocity.
And it exploded from high velocity impact, not explosives. The same thing happens when IRL Railgun shells impact.

You're using the sabots, which is not included in the projectiles own velocity and force. As seen on the wiki page the M10 without the sabot is 4.85kg;
M10 with sabot- (6.55*1,700^2)/ 2 = 9.47 MJ
M10 w/o sabot- (4.85*1,700^2)/ 2 = 7 MJ <- as you posted, is the correct Joule figure.
So obviously we use it without the sabot. Doing the same with the M9 and we get- (4.485*1,760^2)/ 2 = 6.95 MJ. AKA rounded up to 7 MJ when using 1 decimal place, like the site. It still checks out.

Joules, weight, speed. If we have two we can get the third. For the MGS Railgun we have J and can logically assume the kg to be what it is from facts we know about railgun projectiles. As the only way for a 10 MJ Railgun to be, lets say, Mach 1 would be if it weighed 173kg. Its going to be clear into supersonic at the absolute least.
50 MJ countered above.

And no, that does not equal 1 MJ; 1,000lbs @ 100mph = 453.6kg @ 44.7m/s. (453.6*44.7^2)/ 2 = 0.45 MJ.
Same vehicle would need 150mph/220fps speed. To equal this output a 3 kg projectile would have to have a speed of 817m/s. Keep in mind the greatest factor of Joules is the speed. No one stated anything about the Turtles, you were called out on the Bullshit you posted about all characters having bullet dodging feats, apparently their bullet dodging feats aren't as good as your ability to dodge questions pertaining to your knowledge or lack of it.
Oh well

Raiden has never bullet timed either, you're able to deflect bullets with the sword at the end of the game, what idiots fail to realize is that it isn't a bullet timing feat since Raiden literally puts his sword in front in a stationary position, sometimes bullets deflect off of it, sometimes he gets shot and survives through gameplay mechanics. When Solidus was deflecting gunfire, THAT'S bullet timing, what Raiden is doing is not.

If you're suggeting that Raiden would have super sonic reflexes because he beat Solidus, you'd be wrong, Big Boss defeated Null despite the fact that Null is a bullet timer and Big Boss isn't. There is no power scaling in MGS. Non Bullet timers beat bullet timers via plot, gameplay mechanics and other factors.

Go to youtube, type in MGS 2 harrier fight
Watch the second video, Metal Gear Solid 2 HD Harrier Boss Fight from IGNgameplay than watch the video and you'll see Solidus has the same muscle enhancing tech that the arsenal tengu use.

You're wrong about the sabot also, the sabot IS included in the velocity and force if the target is less than 30 feet or about 10 yards away. It's also included in the actual recoil. In the MGS2 Example Fortune is clearly less than 30 feet from Raiden when she fires her rail gun, so in this case the sabot would be calculated in calculating velocity in a short range. Which means the point of 2 types of ammo with similar weights and kinetic energy but having different velocities stands.

And lets take a look at that Navy example. They recently shot a 3.2 kg, about 7 lb round at 33 Megajoules from a rail gun at mach 7 speeds. Mach 7 is 2381 M/s. So, a 3.2 kg projectile firing at 33 MJ is only 500 m/s faster than 3.6 kg projectile with 5.8 Megajoules. 500 m/s less yet 28 MJ less.

Of course it's possible that a number may be wrong. But if you literally go to google and type in 33 Megajoule mach 7, the very first link from engadget.com has it in the title and I quote

"Navy's prototype rail gun projectile hits mach 7 at 33 megajoules"

Maybe it' a good time for you to admit that megajoules aren't a clear enough indicator by themselves of how fast a projectile is. And that there is too much missing information with the MGS rail gun.

Finally there's the fact that Fortune's rail gun doesn't even shoot solid projectiles. It's an electromagnetic discharge and not an actual bullet or shell like most rail guns shoot both in fiction and in real life. Hence why Fortune's rail gun looks like it's shooting lightning. She never has to reload her gun, it just has a recharge period. Also, if a typical shell weighs 3 kg or 6.6 lbs then there isn't any way that Fortune would be lugging around dozens of shells which would weigh hundreds of lbs.

MGS4 Rail gun did start using actual physical projectiles, and no longer has that resonating blue lighting effect. But that just means that it's a new/different model and the 10 MJ that applied to Fortune's gun no longer applies here.

Originally posted by Halfamazing
No one stated anything about the Turtles, you were called out on the Bullshit you posted about all characters having bullet dodging feats, apparently their bullet dodging feats aren't as good as your ability to dodge questions pertaining to your knowledge or lack of it.Oh well
Raiden has never bullet timed either, you're able to deflect bullets with the sword at the end of the game, what idiots fail to realize is that it isn't a bullet timing feat since Raiden literally puts his sword in front in a stationary position, sometimes bullets deflect off of it, sometimes he gets shot and survives through gameplay mechanics. When Solidus was deflecting gunfire, THAT'S bullet timing, what Raiden is doing is not.
If you're suggeting that Raiden would have super sonic reflexes because he beat Solidus, you'd be wrong, Big Boss defeated Null despite the fact that Null is a bullet timer and Big Boss isn't. There is no power scaling in MGS. Non Bullet timers beat bullet timers via plot, gameplay mechanics and other factors.
Go to youtube, type in MGS 2 harrier fight Watch the second video, Metal Gear Solid 2 HD Harrier Boss Fight from IGNgameplay than watch the video and you'll see Solidus has the same muscle enhancing tech that the arsenal tengu use.
You're wrong about the sabot also, the sabot IS included in the velocity and force if the target is less than 30 feet or about 10 yards away. It's also included in the actual recoil. In the MGS2 Example Fortune is clearly less than 30 feet from Raiden when she fires her rail gun, so in this case the sabot would be calculated in calculating velocity in a short range. Which means the point of 2 types of ammo with similar weights and kinetic energy but having different velocities stands.
And lets take a look at that Navy example. They recently shot a 3.2 kg, about 7 lb round at 33 Megajoules from a rail gun at mach 7 speeds. Mach 7 is 2381 M/s. So, a 3.2 kg projectile firing at 33 MJ is only 500 m/s faster than 3.6 kg projectile with 5.8 Megajoules. 500 m/s less yet 28 MJ less.
Of course it's possible that a number may be wrong. But if you literally go to google and type in 33 Megajoule mach 7, the very first link from engadget.com has it in the title and I quote "Navy's prototype rail gun projectile hits mach 7 at 33 megajoules" Maybe it' a good time for you to admit that megajoules aren't a clear enough indicator by themselves of how fast a projectile is. And that there is too much missing information with the MGS rail gun.
Finally there's the fact that Fortune's rail gun doesn't even shoot solid projectiles. It's an electromagnetic discharge and not an actual bullet or shell like most rail guns shoot both in fiction and in real life. Hence why Fortune's rail gun looks like it's shooting lightning. She never has to reload her gun, it just has a recharge period. Also, if a typical shell weighs 3 kg or 6.6 lbs then there isn't any way that Fortune would be lugging around dozens of shells which would weigh hundreds of lbs.
MGS4 Rail gun did start using actual physical projectiles, and no longer has that resonating blue lighting effect. But that just means that it's a new/different model and the 10 MJ that applied to Fortune's gun no longer applies here.
"I don't need feats for the Turtles, their writer Mateus already stated they are low end super human, they're able to casually deflect lasers with their weapons." You were saying?

"Raiden is the only natural bullet timer in MGS." A human speed Raiden would not be able to beat a supersonic one.

Did Solidus have that suit against Raiden and does he have it in this thread? If yes, supersonic feats stand.

Haha what? Besides the fact the kinetic energy calculations literally proves me to be correct about the sabot values?

Alright lets do this again;
1. When a lot of people list speed in Mach its usually without a decimal point, so the speed is rounded up or down.
2. This latest trial firing pushed muzzle energy to a blistering 33 megajoules (MJ). The muzzle velocity, as in the previous 10 MJ test in 2008, was still approximately Mach 7.5, but the heavier projectile used this time carried much more kinetic energy.
A separate 32 MJ test shot was conducted for journalists after the record-breaking shot. Viewed on video monitors, there was an audible boom and a bright flash of light as the 23 lb (10.4 kg) test round travelled down range at 2.5 km/s (Mach 7).
3. The 32-33 MJ shot used a 10.4 kg projectile, and was fired at around more or less* 2,500 m/s.
Joules = (10.4kg * 2,500m/s^2) / 2
Joules = 65,000,000 / 2
Joules = 32,500,000
= 32.5 MJ
*Even just 1 m/s faster or slower and the speed can be considered either 32 or 33 from how they generally round up/down.

4. A 3VBM6 weighs 3.6kg. Its velocity is 1,800m/s.
Joules = (3.6kg * 1,800m/s^2)/ 2
Joules = 11,664,000 / 2
Joules = 5,832,000
= 5.8 MJ

5. Speed is a massive detail in Joules. Just look at how its calculated; the weight stays the same but its speed is times by itself. E.g;
10 kg at 10m/s = 500 J
20 kg at 10m/s = 1,000 J
10 kg at 20m/s = 2,0000 J

Only doubling the weight of the projectile makes for force twice what it was, when only doubling the speed makes the force four times what it was. Anyone that understands how joules work knows that speed plays the bigger role, and that you can use the calc to find an objects speed from its joules.

Speed being a large factor is the exact reason they focus on making Railguns faster.

Don't go on about gameplay reloading or ammo, as the fact that she has a handheld railgun proves that its loading mechanism would be different. It looks like its shooting lightning as a way to show both its speed and its electromagnetic properties. Artistic flare, nothing more.

Originally posted by BloodRain
"I don't need feats for the Turtles, their writer Mateus already stated they are low end super human, they're able to casually deflect lasers with their weapons." You were saying?

"Raiden is the only natural bullet timer in MGS." A human speed Raiden would not be able to beat a supersonic one.

Did Solidus have that suit against Raiden and does he have it in this thread? If yes, supersonic feats stand.

Haha what? Besides the fact the kinetic energy calculations literally proves me to be correct about the sabot values?

Alright lets do this again;
1. When a lot of people list speed in Mach its usually without a decimal point, so the speed is rounded up or down.
2. This latest trial firing pushed muzzle energy to a blistering 33 megajoules (MJ). The muzzle velocity, as in the previous 10 MJ test in 2008, was still approximately Mach 7.5, but the heavier projectile used this time carried much more kinetic energy.
A separate 32 MJ test shot was conducted for journalists after the record-breaking shot. Viewed on video monitors, there was an audible boom and a bright flash of light as the 23 lb (10.4 kg) test round travelled down range at 2.5 km/s (Mach 7).
3. The 32-33 MJ shot used a 10.4 kg projectile, and was fired at around more or less* 2,500 m/s.
Joules = (10.4kg * 2,500m/s^2) / 2
Joules = 65,000,000 / 2
Joules = 32,500,000
= 32.5 MJ
*Even just 1 m/s faster or slower and the speed can be considered either 32 or 33 from how they generally round up/down.

4. A 3VBM6 weighs 3.6kg. Its velocity is 1,800m/s.
Joules = (3.6kg * 1,800m/s^2)/ 2
Joules = 11,664,000 / 2
Joules = 5,832,000
= 5.8 MJ

5. Speed is a massive detail in Joules. Just look at how its calculated; the weight stays the same but its speed is times by itself. E.g;
10 kg at 10m/s = 500 J
20 kg at 10m/s = 1,000 J
10 kg at 20m/s = 2,0000 J

Only doubling the weight of the projectile makes for force twice what it was, when only doubling the speed makes the force four times what it was. Anyone that understands how joules work knows that speed plays the bigger role, and that you can use the calc to find an objects speed from its joules.

Speed being a large factor is the exact reason they focus on making Railguns faster.

Don't go on about gameplay reloading or ammo, as the fact that she has a handheld railgun proves that its loading mechanism would be different. It looks like its shooting lightning as a way to show both its speed and its electromagnetic properties. Artistic flare, nothing more. The irony here is that deflecting lasers is a better feat than what 3 of the 4 MGS characters here have. Have Solid, Liquid or Big Boss deflected lasers? No, have they deflected or reacted to anything similar including bullets? Absolutely not.

Raiden isn't a bullet timer, holding a sword in front of your face and letting bullet bounce off of it isn't bullet timing. Being able to physically move your swords in the path of trajectory like Solidus did IS bullet timing. Did Raiden do this? No, and if you don't believe me go play MGS2 and find out.

Solidus did have his suit against Raiden and he does have it here, no one stated otherwise, what was stated is that power scaling with MGS doesn't work, Raiden beating a character who can deflect machine gun fire does not mean Raiden himself can deflect machine gun fire in the same manner. Same concept applies with Big Boss and Null.

Ah I see, you're ignoring the part about the sabot, cool, it doesn't change the fact that a sabot is calculated into the force in short range.

Back to Fortune's rail gun,

no it isn't artistic flair. If you had actually played the game you would know that Fortune's rail gun was a prototype. A prototype that was fit unsafe for anyone to use because it would accidentally discharge and blow up in their face, which is why at the time Fortune was the only person who had one and it didn't blow up because she was supposedly lucky. The lighting isn't artistic flair, it's literally discharged plasma that she fires from her gun because it's faulty mechanism. Want more evidence?



http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc384/King_Bradley/FortuneshootsOcelot.png

Here's another one

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc384/King_Bradley/fortuneshootsseals.png

You see a metallic object in either of these? Because I sure as hell don't.

It's also hilarious how you think Fortune' fires metallic shells at 2500+ m/s, but when it hits a metallic crate it stops dead in it's tracks.


http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc384/King_Bradley/fortunerailgunraiden.png

So...despite all the calculations lets look at this objectively

1. There is no evidence of Fortune's rail gun using metallic projectiles. I showed 2 pics of her firing, one of them dead center in from of her blast and no sighting of a metallic projectile.

2. This supposed metallic projectile that was shot with 10 Megajoules of kinectic energy..was stopped dead in it's track by a metallic crate..if it was a metallic shell it would of punched right through and hit the wall behind it. It didn't.

3. In that same fight Raiden was using metal and wooden crates as cover against her rail gun.

4. No matter what you think or how many calculations you do, the fact is that it STILL took an entire second to hit the crates behind Raiden, and this is without the abuse of cinematic time, something that MGS abuses heavily.


That's more than enough to show that there isn't any way that Fortune's rail gun works in the way you're describing it. In fact you weren't even aware that it was a faulty prototype that oozes electromagnetic plasma that's use as the projectile and blamed it on artistic flair. It's funny how the rail gun in MGS4 didn't have that artistic flair you mentioned

I can't dispute the 10 Megajoules even though this was found out by a quick internet search when Rose was looking details of Fortune's weapon, but I can easily dispute what's actually being shot from her rail gun.

Speaking of the rail gun in MGS4, Vamp provided the technology to Ocelot for Crying Wolf to use, but before you get to excited this rail gun has been heavily modified mostly so it wouldn't explode while CW was using it, so the 10 Megajoules that Fortune's rail gun had doesn't apply with that rail gun. Especially since that Rail gun actually uses metallic projectiles.

Originally posted by Khorne921
Actually fictional lasers are featless unless they're given or calced a speed.

Besides you saying that very quote that he's supersonic? Anyhow, he needs the speed to contend and defeat supersonic characters, just like Solidus. Unless theres a scene which shows Solidus' speed to be dominating against Raiden? If so, do post it.

Actually as the KE calc proves, I'm correct. Your opinion means nothing compared to facts.

Being a prototype means jack all or what we're talking about. To show its electromagnetic properties, yes. Nothing more. No projectile = No railgun.

despite all the calculations just shows your ignorance in the face of scientific fact which matches up to every fact we have about the KE of projectiles. If you don't believe that Joules work in that way thats your issue.

1. No projectile = No railgun. But its a railgun, so it does. You know what else we don't see in tons of games? Bullets in motion. Would you like to assume all these guns fire sparks?

2. We see what happens to it after the crate, and going by game damage in the face of facts.

3. Actual gameplay damage.

4. What I think = Actual scientific, proven, backed up facts.

The best part is that in your earlier post your whole argument was that the Joules calc cant be used to fine an objects speed. But now having no counter to this official, scientific calc all you can do is try to find gameplay reasons and visual effects to go against it. The calcs stand. 10 MJ would need hypersonic speed. Facts > opinions.

Really? You're going to compare the visuals of MGS2 to MGS4? A PS2 game to a PS3 one? To a game released 6.6 years later?

And now we have the same railgun in a game with updated graphics proving that it has a projectile, not that it needed proof. You can claim that the difference is that hers was a prototype, but the fact that its a prototype of this weapon means it would work in the exact same way.. being its a prototype and all.

Fact: Railguns must have projectiles.
Fact: The MGS Railgun is over 10 MJ
Fact: Joules = (weight * speed^2)/ 2
Fact: Speed = sqrt((joules*2)/ weight)
Fact: A 3kg projectile would be hypersonic, a lighter one would be faster

Originally posted by BloodRain
Actually fictional lasers are featless unless they're given or calced a speed.
Even if they were the speed of someone throwing a baseball that would still be a better feat. See this is the advantage I have for actually playing them game, an advantage you lack, I'm aware of what the characters are capable of. Where you aren't outside of reading wiki's and seeing things on Youtube.


Originally posted by BloodRain

Besides you saying that very quote that he's supersonic? Anyhow, he needs the speed to contend and defeat supersonic characters, just like Solidus. Unless theres a scene which shows Solidus' speed to be dominating against Raiden? If so, do post it.

No, he really doesn't. Had you played Portable Ops you would know that Big Boss, despite being unable to bullet time, despite on 2 occasions being held up at gun point by 4 soldiers and being practically helpless, was able to defeat Null and Gene, 2 legitimate bullet timers. No Power Scaling.

Go on Youtube and watch the fights, hell that's probably what you do anyway since that's the closest you'll get to actually playing the game.

And most importantly it's funny how you think Raiden beat Solidus because he was able to match his speed, yet the guy who can't bullet time, Vamp, was able to blitz and nearly kill him. Flawless logic.

Originally posted by BloodRain

Being a prototype means jack all or what we're talking about. To show its electromagnetic properties, yes. Nothing more. No projectile = No railgun.

despite all the calculations just shows your ignorance in the face of scientific fact which matches up to every fact we have about the KE of projectiles. If you don't believe that Joules work in that way thats your issue.
It means quite a bit because you yourself stated that it was done simply for artistic flair without actually knowing the context, that it was a prototype and that only Fortune was able to use it due to her luck and not having it blown up in her face.

2 piece of photographic evidence were shown that support Fortune's rail gun not using a metallic projectile and instead using discharged plasma.


Originally posted by BloodRain

1. No projectile = No railgun. But its a railgun, so it does.

2. We see what happens to it after the crate, and going by game damage in the face of facts.

3. Actual gameplay damage.

4. What I think = Actual scientific, proven, backed up facts.



1. Of course it has a projectile, just not a solid metallic one like a standard one does.

Now if you're still disillusioned in thinking that all rail guns have to have a metallic projectile, go to google and type in any of following

Starcraft 2 Diamond Back

Deus Ex Mag Rail

Razetwo Rail gun

Time Splitters Mag-Charger

That' 4 examples of fictional rail guns that don't use metallic projectiles. There' probably several other I haven't thought of. So that pretty much punches a hole in your idea that a rail gun needs a metallic projectile, when it can just as easily accelerate electromagnetic discharge, which is EXACTLY What's happening with Fortune.

You know what else we don't see in tons of games? Bullets in motion. Would you like to assume all these guns fire sparks?

The irony is staggering


http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc384/King_Bradley/olgamuzzleflash.png

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc384/King_Bradley/olgabullet-1.png

Yeah we don't see gun bullets in motion and gun flare, except in the same freaking game were talking about we see both of those. In fact this is the feat MGS wankers love bringing up to show that Snake is a bullet timer even though I've debunked it numerous times now thanks to the gun flare.

See? It pays to actually play the game, you should try it

2. Agreed, we see what happens to it, it stops dead in it's tracks. A metallic projectile being shot at the speed you're describing would of punched right through and continued on it's merry way. But that doesn't happen now does it?

It isn't game damage either, that damage was done in an actual cut scene, which is CANON.

3. Actual CUTSCENE damage. CUTSCENE= CANON

4. Sure, what you think is applicable..to a rail gun firing metallic projectiles and operating at max efficiency. Not the case here

Anything else?

Originally posted by BloodRain

The best part is that in your earlier post your whole argument was that the Joules calc cant be used to fine an objects speed. But now having no counter to this official, scientific calc all you can do is try to find gameplay reasons and visual effects to go against it. The calcs stand. 10 MJ would need hypersonic speed. Facts > opinions.



Really? Because I think the best part of this entire thread was when you spoke out of your ass in the first 2 post you made here by saying that everyone here has bullet dodging feats, when 3 characters clearly do not. It's the price you pay for posting about a topic that you have no knowledge of. The risk of looking like an idiot is increased and you had to find that out the hard way.

Funny thing is, nothing used here has been a gameplay reason. Everything has been shown in actual
CUTSCENES. which are canon.


Originally posted by BloodRain


Really? You're going to compare the visuals of MGS2 to MGS4? A PS2 game to a PS3 one? To a game released 6.6 years later? no expression

And now we have the same railgun in a game with updated graphics proving that it has a projectile, not that it needed proof. You can claim that the difference is that hers was a prototype, but the fact that its a prototype of this weapon means it would work in the exact same way.. being its a prototype and all.


Ah yes, because..it was totally impossible to show a projectile in the PS2...Even though in the SAME game we see gun flash and we see bullets flying..but yeah I'm sure it has something to do with the graphics engine of the PS2 and the PS3

Lets see, first you said it was artistic flair, you were wrong about that.

Then you said it's gameplay, wrong again, it was in the actual cut scenes.

Now it's the difference in power between the PS2-PS3. Even though there are plenty of games on the PS2 including MGS2 that have shown bullets, shells, gun flare and other graphic details.

Just admit that you don't know dick about the lore dude, Fortune's rail gun shot electro magnetic discharge because it was a prototype. The whole point of a prototype is to TEST a concept or an idea. To TEST is to find flaws, or bugs or other issues and FIX them. If they took Fortune's rail gun, modified it, then it's very possible that power output could of been sacrificed for actual EFFICIENCY and safety, because Crying Wolf didn't have the same luck that Fortune did and wouldn't have been safe from the rail gun blowing up in her face. But hey this is all common knowledge that you would of picked up by actually playing the game. Oh well


Originally posted by BloodRain

1.Fact: Railguns must have projectiles.
2.Fact: The MGS Railgun is over 10 MJ
3.Fact: Joules = (weight * speed^2)/ 2
4.Fact: Speed = sqrt((joules*2)/ weight)
5.Fact: A 3kg projectile would be hypersonic, a lighter one would be faster


1. Agreed, rail guns must have projectiles, not always solid projectiles, and I listed 4-5 examples of rail guns that DON'T have solid projectiles.
2. Sure, the MGS2 rail gun had over 10MJ and shot Electromagnetic discharge, the MGS4 Rail Gun has shoots solid projectiles with an unknown MJ. If only you were able to combined the MJ of Fortune's gun and use the metallic shells of the MGS4 Gun, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now

3. 4. Sure, not applicable here
5. If only Fortune's rail gun shot solid projectiles and if only we knew what the MGS4's MJ was. You'd have such a strong, unbeatable argument.


I love facts, I'm glad you do too. Let me give you some more.

Fact: Your nonsense about all Rail guns needing solid metallic projectiles has been debunked. Electromagnetic discharge can be accelerated a well. I gave 4 examples of fictional rail guns that do so and could probably find more.

Fact:
-First you said artistic flair, when you simple didn't know the lore.
-Then you said it was gameplay, even though it all happened in cut scenes.
-Then you said it was the graphics, even though bullets, flash, shells, and other partical effects were heavily present on the PS2 and last gen systems. In fact we were seeing bullets and gun flare on the flipping PSX, Nintendo 64 and Dreamcast.

Without the use of any gameplay mechanics, 100% cut scenes and canon material backed up by lore, on a graphics engine perfectly capable. We see Fortune' projectiles aren't metallic projectiles, and we see them stopped dead in their tracks by a metallic crate.


Fact: For someone who claims that Raiden and Snake can dodge sonic projectiles, you seem to be oblivious to the fact that Vamp, someone who's proven that he cannot bullet time, ass railed both of them effortlessly


http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc384/King_Bradley/vamprapessnake.png

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc384/King_Bradley/vamprailsraiden.png

I can't wait to see your next retarded post, because I can already tell what it's going to be, I think it will go something like thos.

BloodRain: Blah blah blah Megajoule blah blah I never played the games blah I know nothing about the lore blah blah wikipedia and youtube blah


Have a nice, day, idiot.

And with that gaming knowledge can you tell me the exact speed of those lasers?

Deny saying it now? Nice backtracking. So Solidus's supersonic speed failed to Raiden who has human speed? Tasty, tasty logic.

No projectile = No railgun. Being a prototype means nothing as its of the railgun you proved has a projectile. A weapon that discharges plasma is not a railgun, which this is. A taser is not a prototype for a gun. The final result is based on the prototype, modified but the same base and usage. It has a projectile. Just because you didn't see a hypersonic projectile in motion on ps2 graphics doesnt mean its not there. Stop reaching.

1. No projectile = No railgun. Deus Ex states it an EMP shot. Razetwo states it fires a particle beam Timesplitters wiki says it uses a metal slug bolt and an electo-magnetic pulse. So congratulations for posting railguns where they're stated to be used as energy weapons. Second round of applause for bringing up other games weapons and claiming this will work in the exact same way, despite MGS canonly using RL railguns

Oh wait, third round of applause for not only using a bullet caught in a slow-motion cutscene but to also only stick to one game when I said tons as the point was about how games don't usually show fast projectile speed especially in this generation of games. Way to miss the obvious point..

2. *Don't. Yeah cutscene, which is in a 'game'. Facts state its a 10 MJ railgun, and you using minor points in the face of stated facts is fruitless.

3. "In that same fight Raiden was using metal and wooden crates as cover against her rail gun." AKA the gameplay fight.

4. Facts > Opinion, so the stated 10 MJ Railgun is a stated 10 MJ Railgun. Occam's Razor, it is what it is, don't create assumptions to fit your argument.


No I believe its still about you driving on the Joules topic to the point where you needed outside assistance to explain it to you, and when the facts proved me right it suddenly is no longer a topic you believe is relevant.
10 MJ would need hypersonic speed. Facts > opinions.


Ignoring the fact that the bullet was in slow-motion and the fact that a railgun fires projectiles much faster than a bullet? Or did you forget this fact?

The GMS2 railgun is a prototype for the MGS4 railgun you admit uses a projectile, so yes, the prototype uses projectiles or else it wouldnt be a prototype for the MGS4 one. To test a weapon unrelated to the final product would not make it a prototype.

1. Citing other fictional weapons.
2. MGS2 modified is the MGS4 one, prototpe means its the same kind of weapon. Shooting electricity =/= firing a projectile.
3. Fact that proves the speed can be calced.
4. Fact that proves its speed.
5. Prototype, it fires those projectiles. Wasn't smart to bring this up if you're going to pretend it means something different.


Prove with stated evidence that the prototype railgun is a completely different type of weapon from what it became then post it, not your theories.

Originally posted by BloodRain


Deny saying it now? Nice backtracking. So Solidus's supersonic speed failed to Raiden who has human speed? Tasty, tasty logic.


Have I not explained, in about 5-6 different post, that MGS has no power scaling? That MGS characters that can't bullet time beat those that do bullet time?

Big Boss = defeated Null and Gene, even though on 2 occasions he was held up at gun point by 4 soldiers and steamrolled by Cunningham.

Raiden = Defeated Solidus, even though Vamp who can't bullet time blitzed him and Ocelot held him at gun point and was about to kill him before Olga saved him

But you probably don't recall any of this, because you haven't played he games and aren't familiar with the lore or the context. End of story.

Solidus's super speed failed to beat Raiden in the same sense that Gene's super speed failed to beat Big Boss, the guy who got railed by 4 soldiers.

Seriously am I going to have to re iterate this in my next post? Or will this perhaps indent this into that thick skull of yours?

Originally posted by BloodRain


No projectile = No railgun. Being a prototype means nothing as its of the railgun you proved has a projectile. A weapon that discharges plasma is not a railgun, which this is. A taser is not a prototype for a gun. The final result is based on the prototype, modified but the same base and usage. It has a projectile. Just because you didn't see a hypersonic projectile in motion on ps2 graphics doesnt mean its not there. Stop reaching.

No Projectile = No railgun, agreed 100% In fact no projectile = no gun Period.

Too bad I just listed 4 other examples of rail guns that don't shoot solid projectiles. A weapon that discharges plasma is not a rail gun, except for Fortune's rail gun, except for the DiamondBack in Starcraft, except for the Railgun in Razetwo, except for the Mag Rail in Deus Ex and except for the Mag Charger in Timesplitters. I'm glad your finally agreeing and are posting with even a slight bit of logic. You're making progress

Originally posted by BloodRain

1. No projectile = No railgun. Deus Ex states it an EMP shot. Razetwo states it fires a particle beam Timesplitters wiki says it uses a metal slug bolt and an electo-magnetic pulse. So congratulations for posting railguns where they're stated to be used as energy weapons.


Deus Ex states it's an EMP, shot from a rail gun. Oh and the EMP is a secondry function of the gun, the primary shot is a high density energy beam. Rail gun that doesn't shoot a solid magnetic, surprise surprise

What's the next one? The Mag Charger from Timesplitters. This is exactly what it states

The Mag-Charger is a railgun,

This weapon fires an electro-magnetic pulse generated

Says it's a rail gun, says it fires an electro magnetic pulse..it doesn't fire a slug, do you know how I know this? Because unlike you I've played the game, the EMP shuts down robots and electric systems like an EMP is suppose to...going to keep arguing this? No? Lets move on

Razetwo,

The Railgun is a black gun with red lines on the whole gun, which looks remarkably like the .50 Caliber Sniper and is battery powered.


The Railgun fires a red beam of energy that

So including the Diamond Back, that's FOUR examples of rail guns that DON'T shoot solid projectiles. But chances are your going to regurgitate the same nonsense and self denial of a rail gun needing a solid projectile. I honestly hope you do, because I love watching people delude themselves, especially people who CAN'T READ.

Originally posted by BloodRain


Oh wait, third round of applause for not only using a bullet caught in a slow-motion cutscene but to also only stick to one game when I said tons as the point was about how games don't usually show fast projectile speed especially in this generation of games. Way to miss the obvious point..

You haven't had a valid point for about a week now.

You didn't specify. This is what you stated exactly



"You know what else we don't see in tons of games? Bullets in motion."

Your statement word for word. You didn't specify slow motion. And even if you did. And even so, I showed 2 instances of Fortune's rail gun shot in SLO MO. Neither time did we see a metallic shell flying out of her gun.

If there was a metallic shell flying out of Fortune's gun, where was it? You can't blame it on the PS2's capabilities, and you can't blame it on artistic flair or whatever other excuse you'll pull from your ass.


Originally posted by BloodRain


2. *Don't. Yeah cutscene, which is in a 'game'. Facts state its a 10 MJ railgun, and you using minor points in the face of stated facts is fruitless.

A CUTSCENE isn't gameplay. If we go by your idiot logic, then Cutscenes and gameplay wouldn't count, guess what? Cut scenes and gameplay make up THE ENTIRE GAME.

In gameplay we see characters get shot, stabbed, injured, then wait for a few seconds and have their health returned.

In cut scenes if someone gets shot, they usually die. Because cut scenes are a visual representations of the GAMES LORE.

So in this cut scene we see that Fortune's projectile was stopped dead in it's tracks by a metallic crate...making it canon. End of story



Originally posted by BloodRain
3. "In that same fight Raiden was using metal and wooden crates as cover against her rail gun." AKA the gameplay fight.

You know, the irony is staggering here. Do you know why?

Think for a second, where does it state that Fortune's rail gun had 10 Megajoules?

In a codec conversation, when Colonel Cambell calls you and tells you it packs 10 Megajoules.

Now...in that same boss fight..with the same codec..the very same character Cambell..tells you to take cover until the elevator comes down...

So...using the same method, standard and character, you're told to hide behind those metal and wooden crates to hide from that supposed 10 MJ weapon that should punch straight through the cover...

Ok? Moving on


Originally posted by BloodRain


. Facts > opinions.


Oh you misunderstood, I still think the Joules are relevant, it's just not important and never was, because regardless of what you believe on screen evidence takes precedence over any caluclation you can think of.

On screen evidence = Without cinematic time, took 1 second to traverse 50-100 feet and was stopped by a crate.

No gameplay, pure canon lore. Like I've said several times now, the actual reward I earn by playing the game is to know the context, where the consequence of not playing the game but still posting about it which is what you've done, is to look like a complete idiot, a lesson you found out the hard way.



Originally posted by BloodRain
the fact that the bullet was in slow-motion and the fact that a railgun fires projectiles much faster than a bullet? Or did you forget this fact?

Fortune's rail gun shot was in slo motion also, on 2 occasions, where cans were shown but again, not playing the game you wouldn't know this.

Originally posted by BloodRain

Second round of applause for bringing up other games weapons and claiming this will work in the exact same way, despite MGS canonly using RL railguns no expression

I'm assuming that your excuse here is that MGS has a more realistic approach to their weaponry than other games do. Unfortunately, since you have no actually played any of the MGS games, you wouldn't be aware of the numerous scientific, mathetmatical and historical blunders that Kojima and his team make when writing the scripts for these titles, that don't actually match up with their supposed RL Counterparts

Here are the facts.

There is no real life portable man made rail gun, so no comparison can be made. Fortun's rail gun is a work of fiction just like the other 4 weapons that were listed, and all use the same principle of a rail gun which is to let electromagnetism accelerate their projectile.




Originally posted by BloodRain

1. Citing other fictional weapons.


1. You stated that a rail gun needs a solid projectile. I proved you wrong by quoting 4 weapons that do not use solid projectiles. So you're wrong. With that, we know that Fortune' rail gun doesn't need a solid projectile to be considered a rail gun. There is no man made rail gun in real life for comparison.

Fictional rail gun, Check
Several fictional rail guns that don't use solid projectiles, check
Absence of a solid projectile, no visual, no mention of one, check

2. Yes, and with modifications the new MGS4 rail gun has unknown spec. The burden of proof is on you.

3. Speed can be calculated, unfortunately with the first rail gun you lack a solid projectile and the second rail gun you lack the Megajoules. Oh well

4. See 3

5. I don't have to pretend, It does mean something because when something is modified new specs are needed.


Make your next post a good one, you're slipping

So before I end up quoting you in a big wall of text, lets summarize this in a few sentences.

Why did Fortune's rail gun take 1 second to travel 50 feet?

Why did the 10 Mj projectile get stopped by a metallic crate?

Why don't see Fortune's metallic projectile?

Why was Vamp, a guy who can't bullet time, able to blitz and manhandle Snake and Raiden, the guys that supposedly dodged these fast projectiles?

Did Bloodrain play Metal Gear Solid 2 or Portable Ops? No, but I'll let him answer.

Ah, so you do deny it. Interesting.
You can, but it would be a waste. If you can dodge a bullet you can dodge a punch.

"A weapon that discharges plasma is not a rail gun" Good we're in agreement. Now if you'd like to bring up /other/ fictions, please do so. Irrelevance for a verses weaponry is its own thing.
That railgun is a prototype for the later one. The later one we're all in agreement with uses a tangible projectile. Being the prototype, it uses said mechanisms. Come back with facts next time.


Citing other fictions weapons that are stated to be beams, while not being able to find anything close to a statement for MGS.. the topic of debate. How about we get some evidence, yeah?

I bring facts, you bring theory. One of us can be backed up, and that's facts.
"tons of games" somehow means "in MGS only"? And believing that all slow-motion scenes are equal, and that bullet speed = railgun speed? Hell, the slow-motion only occurred after Raiden dove out of the way.
"the point was about how games don't usually show fast projectile speed especially in this generation of games." And a lot don't. The '01 game depicting a hypersonic projectile did not. The '04 game doing a close-up slow-motion on a supersonic projectile did. So again, way to miss an obvious point.

Christ.. I said 'game', not gameplay. Read.

Quote where you're told to stand directly behind an object thats being struck by the railgun. No point if you cant.

Ah good. Official facts stand that its a 10 MJ railgun. Your theory says something else which cannot be backed up by anything besides your opinion.

So because its handheld everything gets thrown out the window? Not how it works.

With other verses fictional weapons, nothing from MGS or this railgun.

"the new MGS4 rail gun has unknown spec"
No, thats not how prototypes work. You don't make a taser to create a gun, and you don't make a weapon that fires plasma to create one that fires a projectile. In fact if they can make a railgun that doesn't use a projectile, making one that needs one would be completely pointless and less useful overall. A prototype is the stage before the final development, how the final is intended to be. No scrap the base idea of a weapon and create something new..
________________________________________________

"Why did Fortune's rail gun take 1 second to travel 50 feet?"
Transition+VG time. A second to statements.

"Why did the 10 Mj projectile get stopped by a metallic crate?"
Stated to impact with 10 MJ, regardless of projectile or plasma its stated to hit like tank shells. So I ask the same thing of you for plasma impacting at 10 MJ.

"Why don't see Fortune's metallic projectile?"
2001 game showing a hypersonic weapon, many present day games don't even show bullets in flight.

"Why was Vamp, a guy who can't bullet time, able to blitz and manhandle Snake and Raiden, the guys that supposedly dodged these fast projectiles?"
Powerscaling.

"Did Bloodrain play Metal Gear Solid 2 or Portable Ops? No, but I'll let him answer."
Dont get too upset now.
_________________________________________________

I made all of text small for the reason that after writing out this response I found some info, but was not going to delete all I wrote. But by all means, this packs all the evidence I need. In-game script:


The single reason this is a prototype is because the discharges makes it not field ready. Thats it. Not some redo to make it fire metal projectiles instead of plasma. Speaking of...


Her railgun uses bullets as ammunition.

Said ammos KE is around 10 MJ.

10 MJ ammo would need to fire at over Mach 7.

Game offered all of this on a platter.

Originally posted by BloodRain

Ah, so you do deny it. Interesting.
You can, but it would be a waste. If you can dodge a bullet you can dodge a punch.



Listen, do you own a PS3? If so the MGS Legacy collection comes out in July. This is a perfect opportunity for you to play the game and actually have a shred of credibility instead of the continuous ass talk. I know it's something you enjoy but it's irritating to people who actually use a shred of rationale. Think about it

Power Scaling =/= MGS. You jabber about Raiden and Solidus, yet you ignore the fact that Raiden was blitzed by a non bullet timer..soo...shove it?

If you can dodge a bullet you can dodge a punch...that's amazing, perhaps you should tell that to the hundreds of characters that dodge bullets yet get hit by punches...

According to you Snake and Raiden can dodge super sonic rail gun shots, but they can't dodge a non bullet timer kicking their asses, brilliant!!


http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc384/King_Bradley/vamprapessnake.png




Originally posted by BloodRain


"A weapon that discharges plasma is not a rail gun" Good we're in agreement. Now if you'd like to bring up /other/ fictions, please do so. Irrelevance for a verses weaponry is its own thing.
That railgun is a prototype for the later one. The later one we're all in agreement with uses a tangible projectile. Being the prototype, it uses said mechanisms. Come back with facts next time.


Citing other fictions weapons that are stated to be beams, while not being able to find anything close to a statement for MGS.. the topic of debate. How about we get some evidence, yeah?



Your bread and butter has been regurgitating two thing. And only two thing

10 Megajoules, and no solid projectile = no rail gun

10 Megajoules is correct, no one ever denied this

No Solid Projectile = no rail gun is INCORRECT. Because I already listed 4 other rail guns that are not only classified as rail guns but share the same properties where electromagnetism accelerates a projectile, 4 of them use plasma/energy based attacks, 5 since because no evidence has been provided otherwise, Fortune's rail gun uses discharged plasma.

Citing other fictional rail guns that

Use electromagnetism to accelerate projectiles...just like MGS's rail gun

Use plasma/energy as a projectile...just like Fortune's gun

Isn't realistic and doesn't exist in real life...just like MGS' rail gun...despite your earlier idiotic protest

Originally posted by BloodRain

I bring facts, you bring theory. One of us can be backed up, and that's facts.
I bring RELEVANT Facts, you bring IRRELEVANT FACTS.

Lets see

Your facts:

-Fortune's rail gun had 10 megajoules. That's it

My facts:

-Fortune's rail gun shoots discharged plasma, there is no evidence of a solid projectile.

-Fortune's shot was stopped by a metallic crate

-Raiden was able to take cover behind metallic and wooding crates against Fortune's shots

-Fortune's shot took 1 second to traverse 50 feet.


So it looks like I'm doing better than you are in terms of raw facts.

What else have you been babbling about? Oh yeah, this one is a classic



"No solid projectile = no rail gun"

We already covered this with 4 examples. What did you do after that?



" Second round of applause for bringing up other games weapons and claiming this will work in the exact same way, despite MGS canonly using RL railguns no expression"

MGS Canonically using RL Rail guns? Right, because I forgot about the abundance of real life portable rail guns

Oh but maybe you were talking about the simple prinicple of using Electro magnetic force to accelerate projectiles...guess what? ALL FICTIONAL RAIL GUNS DO THIS. If not, they would be simple energy weapon.

So either way you go, Fortune's rail gun is far from realistic, and fictional rail guns don't always shoot solid projectiles.

I'll give you a few minutes to let that sink it


Originally posted by BloodRain


No, thats not how prototypes work. You don't make a taser to create a gun, and you don't make a weapon that fires plasma to create one that fires a projectile. In fact if they can make a railgun that doesn't use a projectile, making one that needs one would be completely pointless and less useful overall. A prototype is the stage before the final development, how the final is intended to be. No scrap the base idea of a weapon and create something new..



Um yeah...that's exactly how a prototype works...the entire purpose of a prototype is to TEST an idea, product, concept and make MODIFICATIONS IF needed. Problem is we don't know what modifications were actually made to the rail gun. You're assuming that they kept the 10 Megajoules on the new rail gun, how would you know this? Did you work on the rail gun? Did you do the modifications? Do you write the script? No? Then you're speculating and continuing to talk out of your ass.


You don't have to show me the script, I've already played and beaten the game unlike you, because it's important that one of us have some knowledge of the lore and concepts introduced in the series, rather than having the scour youtube and wikipedia, that I leave to you.

Originally posted by BloodRain

The single reason this is a prototype is because the discharges makes it not field ready. Thats it. Not some redo to make it fire metal projectiles instead of plasma. Speaking of...


Who said otherwise? No one stated that the rail gun was used to fire plasma, what has been stated is that it's flaw is that it discharges plasma and that Fortune uses it as a weapon.

Originally posted by BloodRain


Her railgun uses bullets as ammunition.

Said ammos KE is around 10 MJ.

10 MJ ammo would need to fire at over Mach 7.

Game offered all of this on a platter.



And once again, no one is stating that weapon was designed to solely shoot plasma, just that Fortune is using the discharge as a weapon.

On top of that, Rose is describing a rail gun in general and not specifically Fortune's rail gun.

And it's hilarious how you keep dodging the questions.

Why was Fortune's shot stopped by a metallic crate?
Why was Raiden able to use crates to take cover?
Why did Fortune's shot take a second to travel 50 feet?
Why was a non bullet timer able to blitz Raiden and Snake?
Why did Raiden need Olga to save him when Ocelot had a gun to his face?

You're just going to keep dodging these questions, so I'm just going to keep responding just for the lulz factor of watching some idiot ramble and pretend to know about a game he's never played.

Oh and just for laughs

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc384/King_Bradley/ocelotraiden.png

Watch out Raiden, Ocelot has a gun to your face, use your supersonic reflexes..oh..you need Olga to save you...

So why do you continue to sock scourge?