Lord Vitiate runs the gauntlet.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
1. Sith Emperor's dueling skills are unknown; Round 1 is inconclusive.

2. You think Yoda can defeat Vitiate in a contest of Force powers?

You should keep in mind that Vitiate would have utterly destroyed Revan with his FLS, if the droid haven't intervened. What makes you think the same fate won't befall Yoda, who was finding it difficult to handle relatively much inferior lightning of (PT) Sidious? Please don't give me Acolytes and Worm BS in (expected) defense of Sidious's inferior lightning in response. Vitiate also overwhelmed an entire Jedi Strike Team with his FLS and this team was made-up of the strongest and most resolute Jedi of the Order as well; they all failed easily.
You should keep in mind that Yoda has manhandled ridiculous CIS ships and matched Sidious' lightning, and Sidious is, you know, the most powerful Sith Lord ever.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
3. You think Anakin and Ahsoka would defeat Vitiate? You are probably not in your senses. These two will go down like a putty. Vitiate have purged entire Councils; defeated Strike Teams; broken many powerful individuals with his mental powers alone; controlled millions of Sith Lords in a span of many generations. Their is no contest.
Anakin is, in my mind superior to the likes of Dooku and Mace and while he hasn't comparable force powers he hasn't been subdued by Dooku without the aid of Magnaguards. Vitiate is superior to Dooku in force powers, although not enough for me to see him destroying Anakin with complete ease. Ahsoka is another destraction.

Speed-wise, Anakin has leaved afterimages of his blades and been called ''perhaps the fastest Jedi in any generation'' so lightning should be avoided without trouble.

Anakin is just too fast for Vitiate in my opinion.

4. Same as point 3

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It is entirely possible other beings are capable of performing it, but Vitiate's disintegration isn't as impressive so it doesn't indicate he can do what Yoda did.
Disintegration and moving an object are two different kind of activities; I believe that disintegration is more difficult feat.

Remember that scene in Episode II movie during which Dooku used both hands to rip apart some chunks from the ceiling? This feat required more effort then the crane feat.

In addition, Sidious haven't demonstrated amazing telekinetic abilities either so should we assume that he is not capable? You are making no sense.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
First Maul being one of the deadliest Sith is retconned, now Sidious being the most powerful is too?
Not my fault.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
As for the quote from Luceno, he was talking about the Sidious portrayed in Darth Plagueis who is logically weaker then a later RotS Sidious who managed to surpass Plagueis.
This is your assumption; from the back cover of the book: He was the most powerful Sith lord who ever lived.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
RotS Sidious>Plagueis>TPM Sidious
Even if power progression have occurred during this period, it is debatable if Sidious surpassed Plagueis in power by this point.

Do you think that Yoda would defeat Plagueis in single combat?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
My point stands: Sidious, as of RotS is the most powerful Sith ever. Vitiate hasn't done anything suggesting it has been retconned.
And what has Sidious done, as of RotS, that warrants him the "most powerful Sith ever" accolade? Was he breaking planets apart with thought?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He has only managed to get him in a choke with the aid of Magnaguards. Each time he's blasted him with lightning or telekinesis or huehue, Anakin has come back up as if nothing happened. Vitiate should find it hard to overwhelm Anakin in my opinion.
BS! Dooku overwhelmed Anakin with his telekinetic abilities on Tatooine but since the fight took place in a desert so Dooku was not in the position to harm Anakin easily in that setting. In addition, Dooku once incapacitated Anakin with his lightning. Furthermore, Dooku didn't go all-out against Anakin on Invisible Hand because he was tasked to lure Anakin to the dark side. You should drop the silly habit of exaggerating your favorite characters in debates.

Also, you cannot use Dooku as a analogy to advance your argument in favor of Anakin against a supremely strong character like Vitiate.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Huh?
Vitiate have easily felled some of the strongest Jedi in the Order. Do you think that Ahsoka would stand a chance? She would be broke even before she makes a move.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
All of whom are faster than Vitiate. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Do not expect me to take your subjective opinions seriously.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
How 'bout you stop saying every canon fact you don't like has been retconned?
How about you start warming up to latest canonical developments rather then lurking in 2003?

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Disintegration and moving an object are two different kind of activities; I believe that disintegration is more difficult feat.
I agree disintegration is as good as it gets, but Vitiate's demonstration is a far cry off the most impressive disintegration feats, i.e Bane and Plagueis.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Remember that scene in Episode II movie during which Dooku used both hands to rip apart some chunks from the ceiling? This feat required more effort then the crane feat.
He didn't disintegrate the wall.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In addition, Sidious haven't demonstrated amazing telekinetic abilities either so should we assume that he is not capable? You are making no sense.
Explicit ragdollings of Maul and Savage?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Not my fault.
You say it as if it's fact which it isn't.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is your assumption; from the back cover of the book: He was the most powerful Sith lord who ever lived.
He was the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived up until that point. He was surpassed by Sidious in RotS.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Even if power progression have occurred during this period, it is debatable if Sidious surpassed Plagueis in power by this point.
I think it's pretty clear considering numerous statements confirming Sidious as the most powerful Sith Lord ever at the point of RotS, while at the point of TPM, Plagueis was the most powerful Sith Lord.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Do you think that Yoda would defeat Plagueis in single combat?
Yoda would win a little majority, probably 7/10 but it'd be an extremely hard battle.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And what has Sidious done, as of RotS, that warrants him the "most powerful Sith ever" accolade? Was he breaking planets apart with thought?
Manipulated the galaxy? Killed four of the Orders most powerful Jedi Masters, stalemating/defeating the most powerful Jedi ever in Yoda, manhandling Maul and Opress, making Dooku shit himself over a goddamn holocron?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
BS! Dooku overwhelmed Anakin with his telekinetic abilities on Tatooine but since the fight took place in a desert so Dooku was not in the position to harm Anakin easily in that setting.
Who are you to decide the environment was in Anakin's favor without proof? If he could, Dooku would be choking him to death.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In addition, Dooku once incapacitated Anakin with his lightning.
When?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Furthermore, Dooku didn't go all-out against Anakin on Invisible Hand because he was tasked to lure Anakin to the dark side.
I don't have the novelization on me at this moment but I recall it implying Dooku didn't hold back.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, you cannot use Dooku as a analogy to advance your argument in favor of Anakin against a supremely strong character like Vitiate.
I can, actually. Dooku and Vitiate are easily comparable.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate have easily felled some of the strongest Jedi in the Order. Do you think that Ahsoka would stand a chance? She would be broke even before she makes a move.
Agreed, but lifting her up and choking her would probably take a few seconds, enough time for Anakin to get close and kill him.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Do not expect me to take your subjective opinions easily.
What, now Dooku, Kenobi and Ventress aren't faster than Vitiate? laughing out loud

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
How about you start warming up to latest canonical developments rather then lurking in 2003?
It doesn't retcon anything, it retcons your opinion which you apparantly think is fact.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I agree disintegration is as good as it gets, but Vitiate's demonstration is a far cry off the most impressive disintegration feats, i.e Bane and Plagueis.
The event involving Bane and Kas'im proves that feats such as these have superficial value. And what have Plagueis disintegrated?

Regardless, Vitiate is capable of collapsing gigantic buildings should he try. This he proved during his second confrontation with HoT.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Explicit ragdollings of Maul and Savage?
Opress send Sidious packing with his Force push during the same encounter as well...

Have Sidious moved aircraft with his telekinetic abilities like Yoda? Have he lifted aircraft with his telekinetic abilities like Yoda?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You say it as if it's fact which it isn't.
My contention is that when Sidious was awarded the "strongest Sith" accolade; Plagueis wasn't explored; and Vitiate wasn't even introduced.

In this book: http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Readers-Companion-Star-Wars/dp/0345511190 - all of the aforementioned characters have been featured and Sidious haven't been touted as the "strongest Sith" in it which was typical in previous Star Wars history based sources.

Therefore, authorities do not subscribe to your subjective theory of power rankings.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He was the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived up until that point. He was surpassed by Sidious in RotS.
Their is difference between "ever" and "in history."

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I think it's pretty clear considering numerous statements confirming Sidious as the most powerful Sith Lord ever at the point of RotS, while at the point of TPM, Plagueis was the most powerful Sith Lord.
No, this is your subjective theory.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Yoda would win a little majority, probably 7/10 but it'd be an extremely hard battle.
Yoda isn't very smart; Plagueis may find a way to undermine him too. Dooku have outwitted him; Sidious have outgunned him regardless of his cockiness. Sidious clearly had the chance to kill Yoda during the very early stages of combat but he let that chance slip due to his cockiness. And Yoda isn't very good at utilizing his power to utmost effectiveness.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Manipulated the galaxy?
He managed to conceal his Sith persona, which is impressive. However, he was a mastermind as well. He succeeded in his plans due to combination of both of these factors. However, these factors doesn't warrant him the accolade of "strongest Sith."

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Killed four of the Orders most powerful Jedi Masters,
Apart from Mace, others were celebrated swordsmen; nothing more. In addition, Sidious may have died if Anakin had not intervened.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
stalemating/defeating the most powerful Jedi ever in Yoda,
Yoda isn't very smart.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
manhandling Maul and Opress, making Dooku shit himself over a goddamn holocron?
These shouldn't matter.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Who are you to decide the environment was in Anakin's favor without proof? If he could, Dooku would be choking him to death.
Fair enough! But the million dollar question is? Did Sidious wanted Anakin dead?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
When?
On Naboo.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I don't have the novelization on me at this moment but I recall it implying Dooku didn't hold back.
This was the plan:

"You will duel them," Sidious had said. "Kill Kenobi. His only purpose is to die and, in so doing, ignite young Skywalker to tap the depths of his fear and rage. Should you defeat Skywalker easily, then we will know that he is not prepared to serve us. Perhaps he never will be prepared. Should he by some fluke best you, however, I will control the outcome to spare you any some fluke best you, however, I will control the outcome to spare you any unnecessary embarrassment, and we will have gained a powerful ally. But above all you must make the contest appear real, Lord Tyranus." (SWLOE)

Dooku incapacitated Obi-Wan during the fight onboard Invisible Hand as per the plan. He could do the same to Anakin but chose not to because Sidious didn't want him to.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I can, actually. Dooku and Vitiate are easily comparable.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_gWQaU40PH24/TQrrAq1H3sI/AAAAAAAAJ74/n1uDMSTPSec/s1600/Epic_Facepalm_by_RJTH%255B1%255D.jpg

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Agreed, but lifting her up and choking her would probably take a few seconds, enough time for Anakin to get close and kill him.
Vitiate have taken on and defeated multiple (powerful) opponents simultaneously.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What, now Dooku, Kenobi and Ventress aren't faster than Vitiate? laughing out loud

How much times does it takes to unleash Force powers? It happens with a thought or faster. And if Vitiate is slow, how come so many have failed to subdue him? Think...

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It doesn't retcon anything, it retcons your opinion which you apparantly think is fact.
Covered above. Your assumptions are not facts.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The event involving Bane and Kas'im proves that feats such as these have superficial value. And what have Plagueis disintegrated?

In blinding motion his hands and feet smashed skulls and windpipes. He stopped once to conjure a Force wave that all but atomized the bodies of six Maladians. He spun through a turn, dragging the wave halfway around the room to kill half a dozen more.

He did this under heavy injuries.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Regardless, Vitiate is capable of collapsing gigantic buildings should he try. This he proved during his second confrontation with HoT.
Link?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Opress send Sidious packing with his Force push during the same encounter as well...
Are you gonna ignore Sidious' complete manhandling of both of them?

Now who's the Maul fanboy?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Have Sidious moved aircraft with his telekinetic abilities like Yoda? Have he lifted aircraft with his telekinetic abilities like Yoda?
His showing against the brothers, who themselves have very impressive feats makes it entirely possible. For that matter, his lightning exceeded Yoda's limit.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My contention is that when Sidious was awarded the "strongest Sith" accolade; Plagueis wasn't explored; and Vitiate wasn't even introduced.

In this book: http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Readers-Companion-Star-Wars/dp/0345511190 - all of the aforementioned characters have been featured and Sidious haven't been touted as the "strongest Sith" in it which was typical in previous Star Wars history based sources.

Therefore, authorities do not subscribe to your subjective theory of power rankings.
Neither has done anything suggesting they are above Sidious' abilities.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Their is difference between "ever" and "in history."
What?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No, this is your subjective theory.
A theory which is really damn logically.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yoda isn't very smart; Plagueis may find a way to undermine him too. Dooku have outwitted him; Sidious have outgunned him regardless of his cockiness. Sidious clearly had the chance to kill Yoda during the very early stages of combat but he let that chance slip due to his cockiness. And Yoda isn't very good at utilizing his power to utmost effectiveness.
What's your point? I made it clear that Plagueis would take some of the fights.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He managed to conceal his Sith persona, which is impressive. However, he was a mastermind as well. He succeeded in his plans due to combination of both of these factors. However, these factors doesn't warrant him the accolade of "strongest Sith."
Being a mastermind isn't part of being a strong Sith?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Apart from Mace, others were celebrated swordsmen; nothing more.
All have been called some of the best swordsmen in the order. Agen Kolar, the first to get blitzed if I recall correctly, has outright been stated to be one of the ''greatest swordbeings in the history of the Order'' following his stomp of Quinlan Vos.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In addition, Sidious may have died if Anakin had not intervened.
Not really.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yoda isn't very smart.
What the hell has this to do with anything?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
These shouldn't matter.
No? Dooku himself is one of the greatest Jedi in the 25,000 year history of the Order and an even greater Lord of the Sith, but being incredibly afraid of Sidious doesn't matter?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Fair enough! But the million dollar question is? Did Sidious wanted Anakin dead?
Doesn't matter. Sidious didn't fight Anakin, Dooku did. Watch the fight, Dooku was going to kill Anakin at one point had Anakin not reacted fast enough.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
On Naboo.
With the aid of Magnaguards, yeah.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This was the plan:

"You will duel them," Sidious had said. "Kill Kenobi. His only purpose is to die and, in so doing, ignite young Skywalker to tap the depths of his fear and rage. Should you defeat Skywalker easily, then we will know that he is not prepared to serve us. Perhaps he never will be prepared. Should he by some fluke best you, however, I will control the outcome to spare you any some fluke best you, however, I will control the outcome to spare you any unnecessary embarrassment, and we will have gained a powerful ally. But above all you must make the contest appear real, Lord Tyranus." (SWLOE)

Dooku incapacitated Obi-Wan during the fight onboard Invisible Hand as per the plan. He could do the same to Anakin but chose not to because Sidious didn't want him to.

Outdated. The RotS novelization has it that Dookku goes for the kill from his own perspective and that ''Sidious would come up with a new plan quicker than a new apprentice.''

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_gWQaU40PH24/TQrrAq1H3sI/AAAAAAAAJ74/n1uDMSTPSec/s1600/Epic_Facepalm_by_RJTH%255B1%255D.jpg
Concession accepted.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate have taken on and defeated multiple (powerful) opponents simultaneously.

How much times does it takes to unleash Force powers? It happens with a thought or faster. And if Vitiate is slow, how come so many have failed to subdue him? Think...
Prove it happens faster than thought.

Either way, faster than thought isn't really that good. Anakin's speed is far above that.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Covered above. Your assumptions are not facts.
But yours are?

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Dooku have managed to rag-doll Anakin with his telekinetic abilities; his defeat onboard Invisible Handle was the result of a setup. Dooku foolishly played by the rules and fell.

The novel has Dooku stop holding back after replenishing himself with the Force and getting Kenobi out of the way.

Lucas says that Sidious said to Dooku something like "if he beats you I'll stop the fight, if you beat him, we'll know he's not ready." ROTS Audio commentary IIRC. Which is pretty much what the passage from LOE says that you quoted.

So Dooku was supposed to attempt to win the fight according to Lucas and LOE.

Whatever source you use, Anakin legitimately overpowered Count Dooku after "Attacking with a new ferocity" (ROTS Script).

The only argument that can be used against Anakin, is that Dooku could have possibly beat him before he attacked with that "new ferocity" had he not wasted so much time disposing of Kenobi.

BUT once Skywalker did attack on that new level, it was over for Dooku.

axel_jovan

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Another axel_jovan in the making; ignorant and clueless.
Your butthurt is showing, bro.

But it is understandable that the growing number of posters who do not masturbate in awe to KOTOR / TOR characters is your worst nightmare. wink

Originally posted by Nephthys
IMO a fair debate is one in which both parties do everything they can to win, with neither side bound by morality and both giving their all to win.
Considering that "fair" as in "what is fair and what is not" is usually decided on moral grounds, your little credo fails miserably.
You could just as well state that you will conform to being dishonest only in order to win a debate.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Outdated? SWLOE was released in 2005; 2 years after release of ROTS Novelization. Dooku's perception does not holds true. He didn't suspected that Sidious planned to replace him.
Correction: both novels have been released in 2005.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
January 25, 2005 Labyrinth of Evil and April 2, 2005 Revenge of the Sith Novelization?

Hardcover came out on January 25, 2005 ( September for paperback )
Hardcover came out on April 2, 2005 ( October 25 for paperback )
Addressed it.

Still Dooku's thought doesn't invalidates revelation in SWLOE. Dooku acted according to the plan during the actual fight as depicted in the G-Canon movie.

"You have hate. You have anger. But you don't use them." (Dooku to Anakin)

He knew that if he lost, he would be saved by Palpatine. That didn't happen.

GM Skywalker

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Round 1: Inconclusive (Vitiate's martial skills are unknown)

Round 2: Clears
Really? I always thought Luke was the best, followed by Sidious and Yoda.......Looking into that one.

Round 3: Clears
Same as above.

Round 4: 50/50 at 8

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The novel has Dooku stop holding back after replenishing himself with the Force and getting Kenobi out of the way.
Well, Dooku obviously had to defend himself. He wouldn't have just stood their waiting for Anakin to cut him in to two. The novel attempted to deviate from movie's depiction of this fight but the fact remains that Dooku didn't go all-out against Anakin in this fight. In all of the previous confrontations, Dooku have never let Anakin disarm him. Since Dooku was tasked with the objective to lure Anakin to the dark side, he did so. And since he was assured that if the fight does not turns out to be in his favor then Palpatine would intervene and save Dooku, therefore he didn't felt the need to go all-out against Anakin.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lucas says that Sidious said to Dooku something like "if he beats you I'll stop the fight, if you beat him, we'll know he's not ready." ROTS Audio commentary IIRC. Which is pretty much what the passage from LOE says that you quoted.

So Dooku was supposed to attempt to win the fight according to Lucas and LOE.

Whatever source you use, Anakin legitimately overpowered Count Dooku after "Attacking with a new ferocity" (ROTS Script).
Anakin tapped in to the dark side and that ferocity was the outcome of this.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The only argument that can be used against Anakin, is that Dooku could have possibly beat him before he attacked with that "new ferocity" had he not wasted so much time disposing of Kenobi.

BUT once Skywalker did attack on that new level, it was over for Dooku.
Skywalker certainly gained upperhand over Dooku once he tapped in to the dark side because that fueled his already amazing raw power. Dooku was not in the position to overcome Anakin with his martial abilities due to him being much older. However, Dooku had the option to use his Sith powers to stop Anakin; he didn't in this fight. Therefore, whether he could do something during Anakin's furious onslaught or not remains a mystery.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
However, Dooku had the option to use his Sith powers to stop Anakin; he didn't in this fight. Therefore, whether he could do something during Anakin's furious onslaught or not remains a mystery.
Just wanted to address this point aswell:

Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.

Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.

Based

How are you going to have a poll but then have 4 different scenarios?

1. Stops at one.
2. Stops at six.
3. and 4. stops at five.

pencilcrayon

I haven't seen Vitiate shown capability of even wielding a saber (he could barely even hold one), let alone be a master of all the seven lightsaber forms and all techniques and stances within said forms, and have mastery over all the said forms ambidextrously.

I haven't seen Vitiate move at near-relativistic speeds that are too fast for someone (who dodges lightning and sees sub-light speed ships in slow motion) to even see.

GM Skywalker

Yea, the vote thing is messed up....Don't know if you can change it... Oh well.

axel_jovan

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
I haven't seen Vitiate shown capability of even wielding a saber (he could barely even hold one), let alone be a master of all the seven lightsaber forms and all techniques and stances within said forms, and have mastery over all the said forms ambidextrously.

I haven't seen Vitiate move at near-relativistic speeds that are too fast for someone (who dodges lightning and sees sub-light speed ships in slow motion) to even see.
Maybe because Vitiate's saber abilities are non-existent and he is one slow-a$$ motherfvcker stick out tongue

pencilcrayon

I haven't seen Vitiate become powerful without relics and trinkets.

I haven't seen Vitiate light up a planet with Force Lightning.

I haven't seen Vitiate create a storm with his mere fury while keeping his fury private.

I haven't seen Vitiate slay three council members in combat before they can react (one council member already began to withstand his lightning, plus another knight).

Nephthys

Vitiate hasn't ever used relics and trinkets to my knowledge. His power came purely from his knowledge and rituals.

And Vitiate has technically slain more than three council members before they can react, lol.

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
I haven't seen Vitiate shown capability of even wielding a saber (he could barely even hold one)

Now this is just stupid. He wields one against the Hero of Tython when he possesses Kira Carsen (even does a fancy twirl). People calling him slow and that he has weak lightsaber skills are getting way ahead of themselves. Just because he's shown no abilities there does not make him weak, merely that we don't know his capabilities.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Nephthys
He wields one against the Hero of Tython when he possesses Kira Carsen (even does a fancy twirl).

A fancy twirl you say?! Definitely Dooku-level material right there.

pencilcrayon

He could barely hold a saber properly in the Revan novel.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
He could barely hold a saber properly in the Revan novel.

And yet is capable of fancy twirls a mere 300 years later. Time well spent, I'd say.

Intrepid37

He was disarmed by a mere saber-throw.

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He was disarmed by a mere saber-throw.

Give him another three centuries. With that staggering learning rate, there's no telling what he'd be capable of.

Dare I say two fancy twirls?!

Intrepid37

Then he'd be too fast for the eye to see, no?

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That's a trailer. Did it happen in-game?
I don't know, I haven't played the game. It is an official TV Commercial for the TFU lore.

However, message given is clear-cut that defenseless humans don't stand a chance against the power of the Force. Only a Jedi or Sith can withstand such power through defensive applications of the Force.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Either way, bad logic. T3 was defenseless, so was the technobeasts. Wanna write of these feats too?
No! They got atomized or whatever as well. However, could Revan and Zannah be atomized like that?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
laughing out loud

Malgus' injus were ''serious'' as per the trooper, nothing more.
roll eyes (sarcastic)

Malgus's brutal campaign nearly ended forever when he suffered a crushing defeat battling Jace Malcom, commander of the elite Havoc Squad, and Satele Shan on Aldeeran. The Empire's greatest surgeons and cyberneticists repaired Malgus's broken body and installed a special breathing apparatus to conceal his ruined face. (SWTORE, Page 169)

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No proof Vitiate did it.
So the Temple began to self-destruct? Please spare me the idiocy in your responses.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious' lightning exceeding Yoda's limits and complete ragdollings of Maul and Savage isn't as good as Yoda's feat?
You are comparing apples and oranges here.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Right, because the Sith serving Vitiate are on Yoda's level?
Some of those Sith who served him were extraordinarily powerful.

Some examples:

Darth Jadus was so powerful that he could prevent disintegration of his Imperial starship with his power in the Force out in the space while he stood inside it after attempts were made to disintegrate it with planted bombs. Imperial intelligence claims that Jadus's powers are second only to the Emperor but this is disputed; Darth Marr is arguably stronger.

Darth Marr; a master of the dark side; survived on the Dark Council for several decades; became de-factor leader of the Empire in the absence of the Sith Emperor.

This is an indication of Marr's skill and power:

Tales spread through the Republic of the masked Dark Council member who routed armies and deflected assaults more thoroughly than any planetary shield. (SWTORE, Page 174)

Darth Tanaton was supremely strong in the dark side. And even this guy was routed out by the deadly Darth Nox (who harnessed overwhelming power of several consumed Force spirits). I don't know if it is even possible to defeat Darth Nox through conventional means.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
lol
Laugh at this:

-----------------------------
-----------------------------

Time to explain a bit about capabilities of HoT (Hero of Tython):

"You harness immense power." (Sith Emperor to HoT)

Defeated following noteworthy opponents in single combat:

01. Bengel Morr (Corrupted)

A powerful Jedi hero; survivor of Sacking of Coruscant event; defeated the battle-hardened Jedi Master Orgus Din in single combat.

02. Sith Lord Tarnis

Son of powerful Darth Angral; skilled swordsman (trained by the EXPERT swordsman Praven) with decent mastery of the Force.

03. Lord Sadic

Noted to be highly powerful before he underwent the Power Gaurd programme, which transformed him from a slight man into a hulking cybernetic giant. Said to be the best of Angrals apprentices even before his upgrade.

04. Sith Lord Praven

EXPERT swordsman; superb warrior; defeated some of the Jedi Order's finest duelists; once blitzed 3 opponents simultaneously with a single attack.

05. The Sand Demon

This thing hunts Krayt Dragons. no expression

Let that set in for a moment. Codex Entry.

06. Lord Nefarid

Its noted that he isn't very powerful in the Force despite the fact that hes pants-shittingly difficult in the game. Still, we see how immensely hard it is to prove yourself worthy of becoming a Sith Lord in the Inquisitor campaign, so he must be pretty good. Also he can become invisible and has a ****ing orbital death laser firing at you throughout the fight, which the Knight dodges several times.

07. Rakata entity (20,000 years old)

Gigantic figure who corrupted individuals around him and possesses supernatural powers.

08. Darth Angral

One of the Empire's most celebrated warlords; very powerful in the Force; master swordsman; decent tactician; commander of Darth Malgus; slaughtered Orgus Din. Lead the Sack of Coruscant, the most significant military attack in Imperial History. This lead to him being offered a place on the Dark Council, but he refused. So even as of Act 1 the Hero defeated a Dark Council-level opponent. After fighting through the Desolator to get to him.

09. Kira Carsen (possessed)

Kira is then possessed by the Emperor and you have to defeat her. While Kira is obviously not as powerful as the Hero, the Emperor is likely the most skilled and knowledgable Force User up to that point in galactic history, plus you'd just fought through a star destroyer and fought a Darth.

10. Pulled down pieces of the ceiling to collapse four tunnels which the Colicoids were using to enter a hospital, despite resistance from several dozen enemies.

.... pretty self-explanatory.

11. Emperor's Wrath

EXPERT swordsman; superb warrior; kill record of Sith and Jedi exceeding 1000. Even the Dark Council is afraid of him.

12. Leehan Narez (Fallen)

One of the strongest Jedi of the Order. Fights along with her droids.

13. Warren Sedoru (Fallen)

One of the strongest Jedi of the Order; survived many near-death situations. Satale Shan credits him as the best infiltrator in the Order, as well as some other shit.

14. Guardsman Lassicar

A member of the Imperial Guard who's defeated 'six Jedi and over two dozen Sith Lords who made the mistake of crossing the Emperor.'

15. Ancient Terentatek

Much bigger than a regular terentatek, this thing was pretty damn big.

16. Lord Fulminiss

One of the greatest Sith Sorcerers in the Empire, who is said to have once disintegrated an entire city with 'a raging storm of pure Force energy.' Was able to drive even Sith Lords and Voss Mystics to gibbering madness and planned to use his power to drive the entire planet Voss insane. Dunno if that makes him a planetary-level Force-User but you have to admit its kind of crazy. http://www.drumchat.com/images/smilies/drumset-1.gif

15. The Gormak Guardian

Its ****ing enormous:

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/8/89/Gormak_Guardian.png

The Gormak by its leg is a good 8 feet tall. The Gormak Guardian is telepathic and a manifestation of Sel-Makor, radiating darkside energy and dominating the minds of the Gormak.

16. Blitzed 2 Sith Warriors

For clarity: You come up behind them after they've defeated Jedi Council member Kiwiiks and instead of just killing them from behind the Hero gives them time to react to them by activating their lightsaber, leaping straight over them and then cutting both of them down before they can do anything.

17. Blitzed 2 Sith Warriors (again)

This time they drop down from the ceiling behind the Hero in an ambush yet the Hero is still able to turn around and cut both down with a single slash each.

16. Tol Braga (Fallen)

One of the strongest Jedi of the Order; defeated a Dark Councilor in single combat after several days of fighting. The Hero can also dominate his mind, which is a really damn good feat.

17. Imperial Guard

Elite warriors, 'unmatched in martial skill' and able to contend with Jedi and Sith. The Knight fights through them to get to the Emperor (after already fighting through Kaas City).

13. The Sith Emperor

Avatar of the dark side; supremely powerful in the Force. Fought on a darkside nexus so powerful that conventional weapons don't even work near it.

This is the big one. An amazing feat.

------------

As per SWTORE, HoT handled impossible odds.

------------

List compiled with help of member (Nephthys).

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
How the hell does it not make sense? Plagueis was the most powerful Sith Lord in history but was surpassed by a later RotS Sidious who then claimed the title of being the most powerful Sith Lord ever/in history.
Except that Plagueis have been stated to be the most powerful Sith Lord (ever). Please don't twist the statements to fit your agenda. Vitiate is definitely superior to Plagueis on the basis of sheer evidence.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Yeah?
So what does it have to do with "strength"?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Battledroids have higher killcounts than Count friggen' Dooku. Battledroid>Dooku now?
A single battledroid? Once again, spare me such idiocy in your arguments.

Emperor's Wrath have cut down over a thousand Jedi and Sith.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The novelization makes it clear Sidious could've made Mace eat his own saber had he continued the lightning.
You are lying; I have the novel.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
If you really think that Mace would give anything but a decent challenge to Sidious you're delusional.
Your idiocy have toughed new heights now.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I'm not going to take you seriously. Fighting evenly with the most powerful Jedi ever at this point isn't a big deal?
Yoda is most powerful Jedi (ever)? You shouldn't be taken seriously instead.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku was forced to flee both encounters. He never ''outwitted'' him.
He outwitted him to make his escape both times.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The ones who feared Vitiate, do they have the same accolades as Dooku?
Yes.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku is only ''above average''? No longer a ''heavyweight''? You must be smoking hard.
Your knowledge is extremely limited. Learn from my posts.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The reason why Ventress has been sent to kill Anakin. Had he not survived the Clone Wars, he hadn't proved himself worthy of being an apprentice.
Of-course, Anakin was expected to become strong given his high affinity with the Force. Sidious expected him to perform; he wasn't an idiot.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Of course he isn't. But he sure as hell has a better chance of overcoming them than most.
Subjective assumption; just because he is an important character of the mythos, doesn't means he can contend with true heavyweights of the mythos. He beat Dooku but he lost to Obi-Wan; he also lost to Shaak Ti in the Jedi Temple.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
In force power, Vitiate is above Dooku but there's no big margin really.
He (is) considerably more powerful then Dooku. Heck, Nyriss will WTFpwn Dooku.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
RotS novelization was released three months after LoE.
I noted it. It doesn't changes a dime.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Vitiate has defeated no one above Dooku's caliber.
laughing out loud

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not faster than Anakin can be all over Vitiate's face.
laughing out loud

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Likely is keyword.
The assertion makes perfect sense.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Yoda and Sidious are. Mace? Nah.
You don't have ROTS Novelization perhaps or you haven't read it properly. Mace absolutely matched Sidious's speed and gained upperhand.

pencilcrayon

I haven't seen Vitiate be the culmination of nearly 1000 years' worth of training, experience, knowledge, wisdom and observation.

Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure.

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook

"There is nothing I do not know. Nothing that is worth knowing, anyway."

Vitiate requires additional aid as well as countless simultaneous deaths, plus an entire ritual.
Not from his own power.

Nephthys

Lol.

Vitiate is the culmination of nearly over 1000 years' worth of training, experience, knowledge, wisdom and observation.

His own. wink

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He was disarmed by a mere saber-throw.

He was taken by surprise. And I don't know where pencils getting that he could barely hold one.

The_Tempest

Just some stray observations for your erudition:

Mocking aside, Neph is absolutely right on this one. We cannot factually conclude that Vitiate is an inept swordsman simply because there are no current available depictions of him properly wielding one. Likewise, we cannot assume he is a master duelist simply because he's really powerful. It is certainly not without merit to believe that Dooku, while not as powerful as Vitiate, would utterly eviscerate Vitiate by virtue of the fact that we know Dooku is an uncommonly prolific and talented duelist.

Pencilcrayon, the quote from The Dark Empire Sourcebook isn't ironclad: it merely communicates a common belief about Palpatine's abilities. It may be right, it may not.

The idea that Dooku is ineligible for "heavyweight" status is really, really, really dumb and indefensible given what we know of the character.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Some of those Sith who served him were extraordinarily powerful.

Some examples:

Darth Jadus was so powerful that he could prevent disintegration of his Imperial starship with his power in the Force out in the space while he stood inside it after attempts were made to disintegrate it with planted bombs. Imperial intelligence claims that Jadus's powers are second only to the Emperor but this is disputed; Darth Marr is arguably stronger.

Darth Marr; a master of the dark side; survived on the Dark Council for several decades; became de-factor leader of the Empire in the absence of the Sith Emperor.

This is an indication of Marr's skill and power:

Tales spread through the Republic of the masked Dark Council member who routed armies and deflected assaults more thoroughly than any planetary shield. (SWTORE, Page 174)

Darth Tanaton was supremely strong in the dark side. And even this guy was routed out by the deadly Darth Nox (who harnessed overwhelming power of several consumed Force spirits). I don't know if it is even possible to defeat Darth Nox through conventional means.
In addition;

The (second) Emperor's Wrath cut down Darth Baras; a Dark Councilor who handled (Jedi Master) Satele Shan in single combat. I don't think Satele Shan needs any introduction.

There were more:-

- Darth Malgus
- Darth Angral

Perhaps lot more...

-----

Not to forget that it is very difficult to become a Dark Councilor in the first place. The competition is cut-throat involving millions of Sith. Sometimes Sith Lords don't even last a month in the Council.

Nephthys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Tanaton was supremely strong in the dark side. And even this guy was routed out by the deadly Darth Nox (who harnessed overwhelming power of several consumed Force spirits). I don't know if it is even possible to defeat Darth Nox through conventional means.

I think they can be defeated, though not killed. So far Thanaton has 'killed' me once already. I got better. But I hear whispers about the Inquisitor gaining an invincible body. So you may be right.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think they can be defeated, though not killed. So far Thanaton has 'killed' me once already. I got better. But I hear whispers about the Inquisitor gaining an invincible body. So you may be right.
This guy is very scary. He is turning in to major serious supernatural shit.

What surprised me is that when he cut down Darth Thanaton (supremely strong dark sider after a major battle) in front of the other Councilors, they were watching in amusement (like they were eating popcorn). Damn, these guys are hardcore to the bone.

Nephthys

Indeed. Apparently the Imperial Guards state themselves that the Emperor was keeping an eye on him the whole time, stating that he was one of few Sith worthy of his attention. The Inquisitor is doubtless one of the most powerful TOR characters.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
Even on a Dark Side Nexus, his lightning has no knockback capabilities that Sidious has even in neutral setting.
Genius, he got injured and couldn't unleash his power properly afterwards. Prior to this confrontation, he had easily overwhelmed a Jedi Strike Team (HoT included) in a neutral setting with his powers involving his lightning. In addition, Sith Emperor had just put his (Galaxy busting) ritual in to effect; he was interrupted by HoT in the process and this also backfired upon him in some way. The timing was perfect to strike at him.

Should he decide to go all-out, he would reduce even super-strong opponents to ash and dust with his lightning alone. He went all-out against legendary Revan (because Revan managed to give Vitiate some taste of his own medicine) and would have utterly destroyed him if T3-M4 had not intervened. And Revan is supremely adept in the use of Jedi healing and defensive applications; more so then Yoda. In fact, the knowledge of the technique to resist the effects of poisons and drugs through the Force was passed from Revan's holocron to RoT initiator: Bane.

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
He has never lit up a planet with force lightning.
He kept the entire Dromund Kaas lit up with storms (constantly) with his powers and rituals.

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
He has never killed beings so quickly they appeared to be disposed of by a phantom, while an apprentice.
What are you smoking? He snapped his (not real) father's neck at the age of 6. At the age of 10, he subdued the ruler of Nathema in single combat like instantly.

Centuries later, he (instantly) purged an entire Dark Council with a single blast of power:

I remains a mystery how the Emperor learned of his Council's treachery. He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel. (SWTORE, Page 157)

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
He has never mind wiped billions effortlessly.
He manipulated 8000 Sith Lords to do his bidding on Nathema.

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
I haven't seen Vitiate telepathically incapacitate multiple Jedi Masters from across the galaxy.
And who has done this?

However, Vitiate did something big:

Children of the Emperor:-

For the rest of their lives, these unwitting pawns would serve as the eyes and ears of the Emperor. And should he desire their action, the Emperor could reach out and control them to enact his will. Thus the Children of the Emperor were born.

The Jedi remained blind to the Emperor's children due to the presence of the First Son, the being who was first imprinted with the Emperor's power. While the First Son lived, the Emperor's secret army remained hidden and undetectable beneath the Republic's nose. By the time of the Great Warm hundreds of the Emperor's Children were embedded within the Republic. Devoted Jedi, loyal soldiers and influential politicians all unknowingly served as the Emperor's spies and, when the Emperor willed it, acted to tear down the Republic they held so dear. (SWTORE, Page 163)

More;

By drawing on his incredible dark powers, the Emperor imprinted his consciousness onto unwitting pawns who would serve as vessels for carrying out his will. Through the eyes and ears of these "children," he could uncover threats in both the Empire and Republic while they were still nothing but whispers. And should the need arise, the Emperor could seize control of his children and instruct them to crush any plot that dared defy his will. (SWTORE, Page 161)

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
I haven't seen Vitiate picture events in exact detail across planetary, let alone galactic, distances.
His story is still in development. Maybe we will see lot more material in the future.

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
I haven't seen Vitiate be described as a Black Hole in the Force.
He has been described like this:

Over 300 years ago, the great Jedi heroes Revan and Malak stumbled upon the long-hidden Sith Empire's capital of Dromund Kaas, and its ruler - a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side. (SWTORE, Page 88)

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
I haven't seen Vitiate become powerful without trinkets and relics.
Rituals and trinkets that required time to accomplish most of his feats. Sidious' feats were all from himself.
This is a misconception.

When Vitiate was born, he was (naturally) supremely strong in the dark side of the Force. No wonder he gained control over his home planet at the age of 13.

Then he performed a (planet busting) ritual with which he trapped millions of spirits - creating an enormous supply of (Force) reserves - for himself which he would siphon continuously to artificially prolong his life. He also transformed himself in to an immortal being through the same ritual and no longer depended upon his biological characteristics for power.

The pain, energy, and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries. (SWTORE, Page 161)

Many centuries later, he finally was in the position to perform a (Galaxy busting) ritual which would transform him in to an omnipotent godlike being with the ability to create space matter itself and not just life.

This was his power progression:-

Sith Lord Vitiate -> Sith Emperor -> Godlike omnipotent entity

He was fortunately stopped at the 3rd step.

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
I haven't seen Vitiate establish and destroy telepathic links from across the galaxy, without having to formerly interact and establish a mental link with them at close proximity.
What?

Sith Emperor have demonstrated Abeloth like abilities:

The Voice is the mouthpiece through which the Emperor delivers his orders. This possessed being sacrifices all consciousness to become a hollow vessel for the Emperor. Over the centuries, the Emperor has taken many Voices, from young children to alien species. When the Voice speaks, it does so with the Emperor's cold, emotionless, and commanding tone. The Voice also wields the Emperor's incredible power and is capable of striking down anyone who displeases him. Those who converse with the Voice are overwhelmed with dread and unshakable obedience. To speak with the Voice is to speak with the Emperor himself.

The Emperor created his first Voice after the legendary Jedi named Revan attempted to assassinate him on Dromund Kaas. Through Revan's plot failed, he approached within striking distance of the Emperor. To guard against further vulnerability, the Emperor created the Voice to deliver his orders while distancing himself from the forces that conspired against him. Centuries later, this very safeguard would save the Emperor once more. (SWTORE, Page 163)

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
Malgus' lightning against an armored Republic Commando wasn't able to kill him and he kept moving at Malgus until force pushed.
Genius, Malgus have harvested Jedi with his Force lightning; he have even destroyed very strong opponents with his Force lightning. His signature move is Force Maelstrom. This power led to creation of the concept of Force Storm which Sidious unleashed during DE era.

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
Sidious has destroyed 50 armored stormtroopers in a single blast while arcing around royal guards.
FLS talent is not exclusive to Sidious. I have seen the example and I counted 7 bolts.

Sith Emperor unleashed a dozen bolts towards Revan alone.

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
Shrugged off a force enhanced explosion from a force user capable of manipulating a Star Destroyer
Vader also shrugged off the same explosion though is mechanical parts were further damaged in the process.

Darth Malgus and Darth Vindican have endured direct SLM hits. Sith Emperor will be able to endure such powerful explosives.

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

--Taken from The New Essential Chronology
Released in 2005; Vitiate wasn't even introduced.

However;

The Sith Emperor, history's most powerful dark side master, performed a ritual of incredible scope to consume the life of energy of every being on his homeworld. (SWTORE, Page 148)

SWTORE released in 2012.

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
Darth Sidious proved to be the grim culmination of a thousand years of Sith philosophy and teachings.

--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force
Hint: Rule of Two

Credit for this goes to ancient Sith as well; hint: Revan's holocron.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
I haven't seen Vitiate be the culmination of nearly 1000 years' worth of training, experience, knowledge, wisdom and observation.
Vitiate has amazing accomplishments under his belt actually.

Buy this book, if you take interest in TOR era lore: http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-The-Republic-Encyclopedia/dp/0756698391

It is wonderful book with lot of information about ancient era lore of the mythos.

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure.

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook

"There is nothing I do not know. Nothing that is worth knowing, anyway."
This;

In his relentless pursuit of immortality, the Emperor explored the most sinister, uncharted depths of the dark side. (SWTORE, Page 161)

Vitiate's talents haven't been fully disclosed. He packs incredible knowledge of Sith lore and his command of the dark side is amazing. With passage of time, hopefully lot more about him will be revealed.

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
Vitiate requires additional aid as well as countless simultaneous deaths, plus an entire ritual.
Not from his own power.
Vitiate have done lot more; I have pointed out some of his other amazing accomplishments in my previous responses to you.

Also, the ritual is a product of Sith Sorcery and this isn't Alchemy. Sith Sorcery involves the power of the dark side of its user and therefore Vitiate's full (natural) power came in to play when he performed that (planet busting) ritual.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't know, I haven't played the game. It is an official TV Commercial for the TFU lore.

However, message given is clear-cut that defenseless humans don't stand a chance against the power of the Force. Only a Jedi or Sith can withstand such power through defensive applications of the Force.
By this logic, should we ignore everything done against non-force users? T3 couldn't defend itself, neither could technobeasts, neither could the durasteel door Revan blew up, neither could the stones Dooku lifted, the list goes on and on and on...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No! They got atomized or whatever as well. However, could Revan and Zannah be atomized like that?
No, but it's a far greater demonstration of power than what either Revan or Zannah have shown.

roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malgus's brutal campaign nearly ended forever when he suffered a crushing defeat battling Jace Malcom, commander of the elite Havoc Squad, and Satele Shan on Aldeeran. The Empire's greatest surgeons and cyberneticists repaired Malgus's broken body and installed a special breathing apparatus to conceal his ruined face. (SWTORE, Page 169)
Plagueis was at the point where he only had one attack left, his heart was failing him, paralyzing him and almost making him unconcious.

For that matter, Plagueis' feat is far better than Malgus'.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Prove Vitiate did it or get out of here. If he did, then why the hell didn't he use such powers against Revan? Against Hero of Tython?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are comparing apples and oranges here.
Address the damn argument.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Some of those Sith who served him were extraordinarily powerful.

Some examples:

Darth Jadus was so powerful that he could prevent disintegration of his Imperial starship with his power in the Force out in the space while he stood inside it after attempts were made to disintegrate it with planted bombs. Imperial intelligence claims that Jadus's powers are second only to the Emperor but this is disputed; Darth Marr is arguably stronger.

Darth Marr; a master of the dark side; survived on the Dark Council for several decades; became de-factor leader of the Empire in the absence of the Sith Emperor.

This is an indication of Marr's skill and power:

Tales spread through the Republic of the masked Dark Council member who routed armies and deflected assaults more thoroughly than any planetary shield. (SWTORE, Page 174)

Darth Tanaton was supremely strong in the dark side. And even this guy was routed out by the deadly Darth Nox (who harnessed overwhelming power of several consumed Force spirits). I don't know if it is even possible to defeat Darth Nox through conventional means.
This is supposedly Yoda's level?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Laugh at this:

-----------------------------
-----------------------------

Time to explain a bit about capabilities of HoT (Hero of Tython):

"You harness immense power." (Sith Emperor to HoT)

Defeated following noteworthy opponents in single combat:

01. Bengel Morr (Corrupted)

A powerful Jedi hero; survivor of Sacking of Coruscant event; defeated the battle-hardened Jedi Master Orgus Din in single combat.

02. Sith Lord Tarnis

Son of powerful Darth Angral; skilled swordsman (trained by the EXPERT swordsman Praven) with decent mastery of the Force.

03. Lord Sadic

Noted to be highly powerful before he underwent the Power Gaurd programme, which transformed him from a slight man into a hulking cybernetic giant. Said to be the best of Angrals apprentices even before his upgrade.

04. Sith Lord Praven

EXPERT swordsman; superb warrior; defeated some of the Jedi Order's finest duelists; once blitzed 3 opponents simultaneously with a single attack.

05. The Sand Demon

This thing hunts Krayt Dragons. no expression

pencilcrayon

Throughout the worlds submissive to the Empire, Byss is renowned as a paradise, whose siren call multitudes to willingly apply for emigration to its shores. Once there, wrapped in the power of the dark side, the immigrants become completely submissive, their life energy forever enslaved to the mind that would devour a galaxy.

--Taken from the Dark Empire endnotes

20 Billion+ mind wiped vs something Vitiate did over several weeks, requiring sacrifices and his servants to help him yet still much less..

Palpatine's abilities are all from himself.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
By this logic, should we ignore everything done against non-force users? T3 couldn't defend itself, neither could technobeasts, neither could the durasteel door Revan blew up, neither could the stones Dooku lifted, the list goes on and on and on...
This is why I am not such a fan of engaging in (pure) feat-wars in my debates. Feats are important to point out but arguments should not be restricted to them only.

As an example:

Corrupted Jedi hero Bengel Morr overwhelmed Jedi Master Orgus Din in single combat; this Jedi Master had Dooku level Force-mastery.

By the way, T3 have participated in many battles and survived. It did a fine job at defending itself.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No, but it's a far greater demonstration of power than what either Revan or Zannah have shown.

roll eyes (sarcastic)

Both Revan and Zannah are capable of utterly destroying opponents.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Plagueis was at the point where he only had one attack left, his heart was failing him, paralyzing him and almost making him unconcious.

For that matter, Plagueis' feat is far better than Malgus'
Look! If you want to be taken seriously, you need to drop the habit of using the terms such as "far far better" to promote the feats of characters that you like.

Malgus was also heavily injured and almost died from the cliff-shattering attack unleashed by Satele Shan.

Here is interesting revelation:-

Sidious pivoted to see his Master limp into the room, mouth, chin, and neck concealed behind a breath mask or transpirator of some sort. Most of the vibroblade wounds had healed, but his skin looked especially wan. Sidious had been wondering if Plagueis had been weakened by the attack, but he saw now that, for all the punishment his body had sustained at the hands of the Maladian assassins, the Muun was no less strong in the Force.

"Your thoughts betray you," Plagueis said. "Do you think that Malak's powers were weakened by Revan's lightsaber? Bane by being encrusted in orbalisks? Do you think Gravid's young apprentice was hindered by the prosthesis she was forced to wear after fighting him?"
"No, Master." (Star Wars: Darth Plagueis)

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove Vitiate did it or get out of here. If he did, then why the hell didn't he use such powers against Revan? Against Hero of Tython?
Why would he collapse a structure over himself in an attempt to crush his opponents? Also, he attacked Revan several times and gradually increased his ferocity level; a time came when he went all-out against the Jedi Master and would have utterly destroyed him but T3 intervened and the unlucky droid ended-up atomized instead.

Against HoT, what makes you think that Vitiate wasn't attacking him with lethal powers? HoT packs lot of talent of his own; he uses his immense power to restrict Vitiate from unleashing his most potent powers somehow because the Sith Emperor actually can one-shot him to death.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Address the damn argument.
What do you think I have been doing? You have totally evaded my question because it shattered your original argument which you attempted to advance in favor of Yoda's supposed supremacy. Yoda's aircraft moving TK isn't going to help him against a super-strong individual like Vitiate who can very easily blunt its impact. Not even HoT managed to overwhelm Vitiate with his TK abilities and this guy collapsed four tunnels during one of his encounters.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This is supposedly Yoda's level?
-You think Yoda have demonstrated the capability to prevent disintegration of a (gigantic) Starship of around Ravager's size?

-Have Yoda ever routed whole armies by himself?

-Have Yoda destroyed an entire city by himself?

-Have Yoda actually overwhelmed extremely powerful adversaries in single combat and killed them?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Good but calling them ''EXPERT swordsmen'' or ''SUPERB warrior'' isn't really helping your case.
You cannot overlook his accomplishments...

He have actually subdued EXPERT swordsmen. You think that only PT/OT era characters can be superb duelists?

Emperor's Wrath was EXPERT swordsman; Lord Praven was EXPERT swordsman; and so on...

For example, read about Lord Praven: http://www.swtor-spy.com/codex/lord-praven-knight/1599/

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
Throughout the worlds submissive to the Empire, Byss is renowned as a paradise, whose siren call multitudes to willingly apply for emigration to its shores. Once there, wrapped in the power of the dark side, the immigrants become completely submissive, their life energy forever enslaved to the mind that would devour a galaxy.

--Taken from the Dark Empire endnotes

20 Billion+ mind wiped vs something Vitiate did over several weeks, requiring sacrifices and his servants to help him yet still much less..

Palpatine's abilities are all from himself.
Palpatine was at his prime during this time; Vitiate had just begun given his long history.

Also, population size doesn't matters against extreme power of the Force. If billions had inhabited Nathema, all of them would have perished.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is why I am not such a fan of engaging in (pure) feat-wars in my debates. Feats are important to point out but arguments should not be restricted to them only.
I agree to an extent, but feats are surely the best way to go, no?

As an example:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Corrupted Jedi hero Bengel Morr overwhelmed Jedi Master Orgus Din in single combat; this Jedi Master had Dooku level Force-mastery.
Point?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
By the way, T3 have participated in many battles and survived. It did a fine job at defending itself.
Does surviving battles make it harder to disintegrate? Don't think so.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Both Revan and Zannah are capable of utterly destroying opponents.
Not the caliber of Plagueis.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Look! If you want to be taken seriously, you need to drop the habit of using the terms such as "far far better" to promote the feats of characters that you like.

Malgus was also heavily injured and almost died from the cliff-shattering attack unleashed by Satele Shan.

Here is interesting revelation:-

Sidious pivoted to see his Master limp into the room, mouth, chin, and neck concealed behind a breath mask or transpirator of some sort. Most of the vibroblade wounds had healed, but his skin looked especially wan. Sidious had been wondering if Plagueis had been weakened by the attack, but he saw now that, for all the punishment his body had sustained at the hands of the Maladian assassins, the Muun was no less strong in the Force.

"Your thoughts betray you," Plagueis said. "Do you think that Malak's powers were weakened by Revan's lightsaber? Bane by being encrusted in orbalisks? Do you think Gravid's young apprentice was hindered by the prosthesis she was forced to wear after fighting him?"
"No, Master." (Star Wars: Darth Plagueis)
What, now lifting a lot of rubble is comparable to practically atomizing 18 Maladians?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Why would he collapse a structure over himself in an attempt to crush his opponents? Also, he attacked Revan several times and gradually increased his ferocity level; a time came when he went all-out against the Jedi Master and would have utterly destroyed him but T3 intervened and the unlucky droid ended-up atomized instead.
Oh please. He had numerous chances to destroy Revan had he the power to collapse the Dark Temple

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Against HoT, what makes you think that Vitiate wasn't attacking him with lethal powers? HoT packs lot of talent of his own; he uses his immense power to restrict Vitiate from unleashing his most potent powers somehow because the Sith Emperor actually can one-shot him to death.
So the reason for Vitiate not using such powers is because HoT is powerful enough to undermine them?

No proof, babe.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What do you think I have been doing? You have totally evaded my question because it shattered your original argument which you attempted to advance in favor of Yoda's supposed supremacy.
Yoda's aircraft moving TK isn't going to help him against a super-strong individual like Vitiate who can very easily blunt its impact. Not even HoT managed to overwhelm Vitiate with his TK abilities and this guy collapsed four tunnels during one of his encounters.
How is it not going to help Yoda? Crashing the aircrafts together is a far better feat then disintegrating T3. Vitiate's offensive force powers would make little differences.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
-You think Yoda have demonstrated the capability to prevent disintegration of a (gigantic) Starship of around Ravager's size?

-Have Yoda ever routed whole armies by himself?

-Have Yoda destroyed an entire city by himself?
All these are hard to answer. Yoda's feats isn't the same ''kind'' if you get me.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
-Have Yoda actually overwhelmed extremely powerful adversaries in single combat and killed them?
Overpowering Dooku twice and disarming Sidious isn't good enough?

QUOTE=14309683]Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You cannot overlook his accomplishments...

He have actually subdued EXPERT swordsmen. You think that only PT/OT era characters can be superb duelists?

Emperor's Wrath was EXPERT swordsman; Lord Praven was EXPERT swordsman; and so on...

For example, read about Lord Praven: http://www.swtor-spy.com/codex/lord-praven-knight/1599/
Lord Praven was an EXPERT swordsman because he killed one of the most famous duelists?

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I agree to an extent, but feats are surely the best way to go, no?
Feats help but they often do not solve the issue. I focus on all aspects; feats (if available); promotion (accolades assigned); and accomplishments (combat and others); of a character whom I choose to debate for. But some people are addicted to feats; not surprisingly, they are the ones who are least likely to be objective in debates.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Point?
Orgus Din collapsed a part of a gigantic cave during one of the events on Tython. In contrast, Bengel Morr haven't been shown demonstrating impressive telekinetic abilities like Orgus Din.

If these two haven't clashed, it would have been impossible to side with Bengel Morr, because he and Din both were regarded as heroes of the Jedi Order and the latter had feats on his side too.

Such are the complexities of the Star Wars lore; some characters are more explored in the context of talents then others and this makes it very difficult to determine their relative position in terms of strength against each other.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Does surviving battles make it harder to disintegrate? Don't think so.
No other foe managed to disintegrate it. Ponder over this.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not the caliber of Plagueis.
Debatable.

- Zannah's tendrils could dissolve (organic) bodies.

- Revan's raw power reduced a very powerful opponent to a pile of ash. Had their been a defenseless opponent in her place, he or she would have been atomized.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What, now lifting a lot of rubble is comparable to practically atomizing 18 Maladians?
These feats are of entirely different nature; one involves telekinetic abilities to lift lot of rubble; the other involves a manifestation of a pure dark side energy which atomized defenseless bodies. In both cases, raw power was involved but the nature of powers unleashed were (are) vastly different.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Oh please. He had numerous chances to destroy Revan had he the power to collapse the Dark Temple
His first response was to uproot Revan with a Force push and he succeeded in doing so. It surprises me that why you still are not able to comprehend the fact that Revan packed lot of raw power too and his abilities would have been (logically) considerable too accordingly.

Keep in mind that no bombs were planted in the Dark Temple prior to this encounter. Vitiate actually started collapsing the structure in his effort to prevent HoT from escaping with the intent to crush him under lot of rubble. He actually pointed out to HoT that he will not let him leave alive.

Analogy: Kas'im haven't demonstrated remarkable telekinetic abilities too and yet he was able to withstand the building-shattering power unleashed by Bane.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
So the reason for Vitiate not using such powers is because HoT is powerful enough to undermine them?

No proof, babe.
A major part of this encounter is not scripted so hard to tell. However, several SWTOR players have revealed that the Sith Emperor can actually one-shot HoT to death if not prevented from unleashing his Sith Sorcery during combat.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
How is it not going to help Yoda? Crashing the aircrafts together is a far better feat then disintegrating T3. Vitiate's offensive force powers would make little differences.
By token of this logic, Darth Jadus should have attempted to kill the Sith Emperor. Why didn't he try it?

Some of the strongest Jedi of the Order (in history) couldn't budge him with their telekinetic abilities; such was his power.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
All these are hard to answer. Yoda's feats isn't the same ''kind'' if you get me.
Another evasion tactic; concession accepted regardless.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Overpowering Dooku twice and disarming Sidious isn't good enough?
Mace had also disarmed Sidious so Yoda isn't unique in this aspect. And disarming Dooku shouldn't be a big deal for a Jedi of such strength.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Lord Praven was an EXPERT swordsman because he killed one of the most famous duelists?
This is weird; you are the first one to reject evidence that supports my assertion about Praven being an EXPERT swordsman. Must it be written in a text book to make you believe a (validated) assertion and not the actual deed itself?

Jedi Master Usma was one of the Order's most famous duelists; and she was slain in a duel of epic proportions by Lord Praven. How do you think a Jedi gains renown/fame as a duelist?

Praven's martial capabilities are considerable.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Luceno believes that Plagueis is better duelist.
He can only talk of the versions in the book he made in which he supports my logic.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Care to elaborate?
Plagueis' disintegration feat outshines Vitiate's, his speed is far higher, he is far stronger and is a far more skilled duelist. The only thing that Vitiate edges is lightning.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You originally made this assertion;

"Being a mastermind isn't part of being a strong Sith?"

A strong Sith isn't necessarily a mastermind. Concession accepted regardless.
no expression

You and I differ the meanings of a ''strong Sith''. A strong Sith isn't necessarily a mastermind, but being a mastermind is a part of a strong Sith.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Powerful enough to be regarded as a threat to be eliminated. Emperor's Wrath doesn't kills for amusement.
As was Maul but that didn't matter.

He dueled Palpatine on equal-footing (thanks to his Vaapad talent):

The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. (ROTS novel)

Then he got the upperhand (thanks to his shatterpoint talent):

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete. Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half. One piece flipped back in through the cut-open window. The other tumbled from opening fingers, bounced on the ledge, and fell through the rain toward the distant alleys below. Now the shadow was only Palpatine: old and shrunken, thinning hair bleached white by time and care, face lined with exhaustion.

"For all your power, you are no Jedi. All you are, my lord," Mace said evenly, staring past his blade, "is under arrest."

Mace successfully disarmed Palpatine, as apparent from the above description. I have highlighted the crucial developments for your convenience.

And Palpatine couldn't overwhelm Mace with his lightning either:

Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source. (ROTS novel)

And the fight eventually reached this point:

Mace turned toward the cringing, beaten Sith Lord. "You can explain the difference after he's dead." (ROTS novel)

Now Anakin was at Mace's shoulder. Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

Palpatine's eyes glowed with power, casting a yellow glare that burned back the rain from around them. "He is a traitor, Anakin. Destroy him."

"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny.'"

Skywalker echoed him faintly. "Destiny ..."

"Help me! I can't hold on any longer!" The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. "He is killing me, Anakin-! Please, Anaaahhh-"

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me-"

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What is a fair ground? A setting favorable to Sidious?
Mace was forced back the entire fight until he gained an advantage through Shatterpoint. The Shatterpoint was Anakin's fear, and Anakin's fear will not be there in a rematch.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Even in a so-called fair ground, Sidious couldn't hope to disarm Mace with his martial abilities. The former could try his Sith powers but his lightning didn't work; maybe other powers?
Sidious is a superior duelist and a far better telekinetic. Mace would stand no chance.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I know! Issue is that these sources precede SWTOR.
TOR does nothing to retcon it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
IWhat happened on Vjun?
Dooku shot a quick glance at the red button on his desk and, with a Force push, he punched it in. Yoda cocked his head.

"A choice made, have you, Count?"

"I notice I am no longer your apprentice," Dooku said between breaths. "There was always a chance you could overpower me, of course."

Yoda attacked: Dooku parried.

"So I put a missile in high orbit, slaved to this location. It's falling now. Gathering speed."

Dooku stepped warily back to the open window casement.

"Can you feel it dropping? A thorn, a needle, an arrow. Faster all the time." He paused to get his breath. "Obi-Wan and your precious Skywalker and your little Padawans will be wiped out when the missile hits. So what you need to decide is, what means more to you, Master Yoda? Saving their lives-or taking mine?"

-Dark Rendezvous

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malgus? He is actually Dooku's superior
Nope.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dooku's limitation.
Nope. His telekinetic feats talk for themselves, as does his ragdolling of Kenobi and Ventress.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Genius, person is the same. In-fact, tapping in to the dark side grants more strength.
It is made clear that he was weaker then.

But even Sidious hadn't foreseen Anakin's defeat by Obi-Wan Kenobi on Mustafar. Anakin had still been between worlds then, and vulnerable. The failure to defeat his former Master had worked to prolong that vulnerability.

-Rise of Darth Vader

You care clueless; some Sith Lords have served the Emperor who put Dooku to shame (examples already provided) and even these Sith Lords didn't dare to challenge Sith Emperor in combat.
You haven't provided any examples of Vitiate putting Dooku to shame.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Haven't you read Revan's novel? She subdued two powerful opponents simultaneously; one was an expert swordsman; the other one was a KoTOR 2 heavyweight. Nyriss's signature power was lethal enough to destroy these opponents and even stronger ones. In-fact, Nyriss was also a practitioner of Sith Sorcery which gives her more advantage against conventional foes.
Dooku hasn't subdued expert swordsmen? no expression

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And yet he acted upon according to the plan he agreed to; he actually removed Obi-Wan from the picture and then lured Anakin to tap in to the dark side.
It doesn't matter what he agreed to when he changed his mind mid-duel.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He didn't employed his Sith powers against Anakin during this duel like he did in his previous duels. Do the math.

Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.

Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Those assertions are so absurd that they do not warrant a response. Anakin like warriors have confronted Sith Emperor and failed.
If so, you could have ended this debate long ago by proving it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yours are mostly filled with misconceptions unfortunately. Your bias is very obvious.
Which is why you have an apparant history of extreme bias, right?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This point has been defeated already. See above.
It hasn't.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Orgus Din collapsed a part of a gigantic cave during one of the events on Tython. In contrast, Bengel Morr haven't been shown demonstrating impressive telekinetic abilities like Orgus Din.

If these two haven't clashed, it would have been impossible to side with Bengel Morr, because he and Din both were regarded as heroes of the Jedi Order and the latter had feats on his side too.
If Bengel Morr won over Orgus Din, he's better (unless it was circumstancial, of course).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No other foe managed to disintegrate it. Ponder over this.
Because they hadn't the power to disintegrate.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Debatable.

- Zannah's tendrils could dissolve (organic) bodies.
Her socery is unique. Without it she'd kinda suck.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
- Revan's raw power reduced a very powerful opponent to a pile of ash. Had their been a defenseless opponent in her place, he or she would have been atomized.
If you refer to Nyriss' lightning, it is made very explicit it was her own power, not Revan's.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
These feats are of entirely different nature; one involves telekinetic abilities to lift lot of rubble; the other involves a manifestation of a pure dark side energy which atomized defenseless bodies. In both cases, raw power was involved but the nature of powers unleashed were (are) vastly different.
Disintegration is an extreme power. Vitiate, Bane, Plagueis and Marek per few have done it. Obviously more impressive than the telekinetic feat done by Malgus.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
His first response was to uproot Revan with a Force push and he succeeded in doing so. It surprises me that why you still are not able to comprehend the fact that Revan packed lot of raw power too and his abilities would have been (logically) considerable too accordingly.
no expression

Saying that he didn't use it against Revan because Revan is that good isn't proof - it's just a way for you to overrate Revan and Vitiate at the same time.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Keep in mind that no bombs were planted in the Dark Temple prior to this encounter. Vitiate actually started collapsing the structure in his effort to prevent HoT from escaping with the intent to crush him under lot of rubble. He actually pointed out to HoT that he will not let him leave alive.
Sorry bud, but no proof has been provided. Vitiate saying that ''if he dies, everything must die with him'' and then Scourge saying that ''the temple is coming apart'' is not proof Vitiate collapsed it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Analogy: Kas'im haven't demonstrated remarkable telekinetic abilities too and yet he was able to withstand the building-shattering power unleashed by Bane.
Bane didn't actually collapse it, it imploded as made clear in the text.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
A major part of this encounter is not scripted so hard to tell. However, several SWTOR players have revealed that the Sith Emperor can actually one-shot HoT to death if not prevented from unleashing his Sith Sorcery during combat.
If it's so hard to tell don't try to defend the point.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
By token of this logic, Darth Jadus should have attempted to kill the Sith Emperor. Why didn't he try it?

Some of the strongest Jedi of the Order (in history) couldn't budge him with their telekinetic abilities; such was his power.
You assume far too much. Let's work with what we've got which is Vitiate's disintegration and Yoda's telekinetic display.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Another evasion tactic; concession accepted regardless.
Not really. Provide the examples.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Mace had also disarmed Sidious so Yoda isn't unique in this aspect.
Mace's victory was circumstancial.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And disarming Dooku shouldn't be a big deal for a Jedi of such strength.
Except Dooku has accolades such as being one of the strongest Jedi in the twentyfivethousand year history of the Order and an even greater Lord of the Sith, yet was overpowered when amped.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is weird; you are the first one to reject evidence that supports my assertion about Praven being an EXPERT swordsman. Must it be written in a text book to make you believe a (validated) assertion and not the actual deed itself?

Jedi Master Usma was one of the Order's most famous duelists; and she was slain in a duel of epic proportions by Lord Praven. How do you think a Jedi gains renown/fame as a duelist?

Praven's martial capabilities are considerable.
Again, this is far from enough. Agen Kolar curbstomped Quinlan Vos and has been noted to be ''among the greatest bladesbeing ever produced by the Order'' but if I'd say he'd beat Jedi Master Usma you'd act as if you were on your period.

pencilcrayon

The video has him gethering energy into a sphere before he launches attacks. Prep time he wouldn't have against Sidious' lightning. By the way, most of his feats are from original body.

"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

--Taken from the Revenge of the Sith commentary

If you fail to pay attention to context, this sounds like Lucas said that Mace in fact did defeat Palpatine. However, you need to notice the comment as a whole. Lucas starts off by offering a description on a certain scene, but then he moves on to tell how he fitted details in with one another. But this is the distinction: He describes a sequence of events as the viewer sees them at first, giving a brief background on what sequence in particular he is talking about, but then his focus shifts from what the audience sees to what the characters' intentions are and what they experience and think. So from the context of simply a perceivable sequence, no, this does not constitute proof that Lucas stated that Mace did really defeat Palpatine.

Intrepid37

Agreed.

DARTH POWER

Originally posted by Intrepid37

But even Sidious hadn't foreseen Anakin's defeat by Obi-Wan Kenobi on Mustafar. Anakin had still been between worlds then, and vulnerable. The failure to defeat his former Master had worked to prolong that vulnerability.

-Rise of Darth Vader

That's a useful quote thumb up

Intrepid37

I'm a useful guy.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It doesn't matter what he agreed to when he changed his mind mid-duel.

Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.

Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.
He had the chance to incapacitate Anakin early on but didn't because he followed the plan.

Yes, once the two clashed in a lightsaber duel after Obi-Wan was knocked out, the fight took a serious turn and Dooku but then Dooku was assured by Palpatine that he would intervene if he looses. Dooku got played actually.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
If so, you could have ended this debate long ago by proving it.
Once again, what do you know about Vitiate's speed?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Which is why you have an apparant history of extreme bias, right?
No, I am objective and only PT/OT era fans declare me as biased because I do not blindly adhere to their perceptions.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It hasn't.
Covered above.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
If Bengel Morr won over Orgus Din, he's better (unless it was circumstancial, of course).
Intended point is that many would have sided with Din in a debate if these two hadn't clashed for real. Reason: Din have feats.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Because they hadn't the power to disintegrate.
Or weren't as strong as Sith Emperor?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Her socery is unique. Without it she'd kinda suck.
Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
If you refer to Nyriss' lightning, it is made very explicit it was her own power, not Revan's.
Well, Revan matched her power. So the point stands.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Disintegration is an extreme power. Vitiate, Bane, Plagueis and Marek per few have done it. Obviously more impressive than the telekinetic feat done by Malgus.
Satele disintegrated a rocky cliff in its entirety. Malgus and Revan have disintegrated concrete structures. Rock and concrete are very durable materials; much more so then biological bodies. As I stated before, focus on nature of power.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
no expression

Saying that he didn't use it against Revan because Revan is that good isn't proof - it's just a way for you to overrate Revan and Vitiate at the same time.
When a point of yours is beaten, your response is to discredit the counterargument. When you construct a logical point, it is OK! but when I do the same then suddenly I am overrating the characters that I am debating for? Concede...

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sorry bud, but no proof has been provided. Vitiate saying that ''if he dies, everything must die with him'' and then Scourge saying that ''the temple is coming apart'' is not proof Vitiate collapsed it.
You have a better explanation for the Temple falling apart?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Bane didn't actually collapse it, it imploded as made clear in the text.
Whatever. The power unleashed by him was considerable enough to do significant structural damage and liquidity a defenseless individual.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
If it's so hard to tell don't try to defend the point.
Why shouldn't I highlight Sith Emperor's capabilities? Because they discredit your lowballing tactics?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You assume far too much. Let's work with what we've got which is Vitiate's disintegration and Yoda's telekinetic display.
You are getting desperate it seems.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not really. Provide the examples.
You are getting desperate it seems.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Mace's victory was circumstancial.
Why didn't Palpatine use his telekinetic abilities to overwhelm him?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Except Dooku has accolades such as being one of the strongest Jedi in the twentyfivethousand year history of the Order and an even greater Lord of the Sith, yet was overpowered when amped.
As per holistic view of recent updates in the mythos, that accolade looses its value.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Again, this is far from enough. Agen Kolar curbstomped Quinlan Vos and has been noted to be ''among the greatest bladesbeing ever produced by the Order'' but if I'd say he'd beat Jedi Master Usma you'd act as if you were on your period.
Quinlan Vos isn't an expert swordsman; not even close. Therefore, your assumption is baseless. Heck, Fisto performed better then him against Sidious and he lost to Ventress.

Don't fret too much over accolades awarded to characters in ROTS novel. They represent internal viewpoints.

Some revelation for you:

THOUGH THE EPISODE III adult novelization by Matthew Stover follows the Episodes I and II precedent of adding new scenes, its greatest additions to the screenplay are extensive internal viewpoints exploring the psychological underpinnings to character actions. (SW: TERC, 2012)

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He had the chance to incapacitate Anakin early on but didn't because he followed the plan.

Yes, once the two clashed in a lightsaber duel after Obi-Wan was knocked out, the fight took a serious turn and Dooku but then Dooku was assured by Palpatine that he would intervene if he looses. Dooku got played actually.
He got played, yeah, but I have proved he went for the kill. Done deal.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Once again, what do you know about Vitiate's speed?
Once again, it is not my job to prove his speed, it's yours.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No, I am objective and only PT/OT era fans declare me as biased because I do not blindly adhere to their perceptions.
I assume that you think of me as a Sidious fanboy, Dooku fanboy, Plagueis fanboy, Yoda fanboy and Anakin fanboy, right?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Covered above.
No.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Intended point is that many would have sided with Din in a debate if these two hadn't clashed for real. Reason: Din have feats.
As would I, but your point is moot because they have clashed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Or weren't as strong as Sith Emperor?
Same thing.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Concession accepted.
Wait, you think Zannah can take Plagueis? laughing out loud

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Well, Revan matched her power. So the point stands.
I don't remember the original point but Revan hasn't displayed lightning of that calibier.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Satele disintegrated a rocky cliff in its entirety.
It didn't disintegrate and it was after she absorbed saber.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malgus and Revan have disintegrated concrete structures. Rock and concrete are very durable materials; much more so then biological bodies. As I stated before, focus on nature of power.
Malgus and Revan have never disintegrated. As for Plagueis' feat, re-read the text:

He stopped once to conjure a Force wave that all but atomized the bodies of six Maladians.

In this case, it's not a different power - a Force wave is a telekinetic power. Plagueis' Force wave was just that good.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
When a point of yours is beaten, your response is to discredit the counterargument. When you construct a logical point, it is OK! but when I do the same then suddenly I am overrating the characters that I am debating for? Concede...
There's nothing to concede.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You have a better explanation for the Temple falling apart?
It's not my job to prove it. You said he collapsed it, you prove it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Whatever. The power unleashed by him was considerable enough to do significant structural damage and liquidity a defenseless individual.
It pales in comparison to other Force waves.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Why shouldn't I highlight Sith Emperor's capabilities? Because they discredit your lowballing tactics?
You can't defend it because it's scripted so stop it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are getting desperate it seems.

You are getting desperate it seems.
Get your head out of your ass and prove it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Why didn't Palpatine use his telekinetic abilities to overwhelm him?
He did. Had Mace not redirected its path he'd have crashed into a wall.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As per holistic view of recent updates in the mythos, that accolade looses its value.
It doesn't. Considering that there are now powerful beings pre-PT it makes it even more impressive.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Quinlan Vos isn't an expert swordsman; not even close. Therefore, your assumption is baseless. Heck, Fisto performed better then him against Sidious and he lost to Ventress.
He's still among the greatest bladesbeings in the history of the Order.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Don't fret too much over accolades awarded to characters in ROTS novel. They represent internal viewpoints.

Some revelation for you:

THOUGH THE EPISODE III adult novelization by Matthew Stover follows the Episodes I and II precedent of adding new scenes, its greatest additions to the screenplay are extensive internal viewpoints exploring the psychological underpinnings to character actions. (SW: TERC, 2012)
Point?

S_W_LeGenD

I will respond to your BS soon.

Ben "cA" Risa

Is it weird that whenever Intrepid posts I sort of picture a mischievous little schoolgirl who's keeping terrible secrets from all of us...

Intrepid37

Eh...

My only secret is that I am not from Austrailia. wink

Ben "cA" Risa

But the mischievous little schoolgirl part was accurate right?

Intrepid37

That wasn't supposed to be a secret but yeah.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
As are you. Neither of us have proof for our points, so why did you bring it up?
Have you been sleeping or you suffer from short-term memory loss?

You brought the "most powerful Sith Lord ever" argument in to this debate, and I reminded you that Sidious is no longer exclusive with this accolade and it remains to be seen how Sidious will be positioned/promoted in the light of updated lore which continues to expand. For now, it would be wise for you to put this argument to rest.

Regardless, you just weakened the credibility of your original argument with this revelation:

Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface. (SW: Plagueis)

"What greater weapon is there than to turn an enemy to your cause? To use their own knowledge against them?" (Bastila Shan)

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2013/05/21/technology/21-baby/21-baby-custom1.gif

Originally posted by Intrepid37
More durable than twelve armored maladians?
I don't know but T3-M4 was heavily customized (as per kOTOR-CG) and very durable:

An instant later, the little astromech came tumbling down the stairs and bounced across the floor as if he'd been shot from a cannon. He landed in the corner on his back, his wheels still spinning. (SWTOR: Revan)

T3-M4 wasn't damaged...

A human would have ended with broken bones in T3-M4's place, armor or not...

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No. It's not my job to prove Vitiate is fast, it's yours and so far you haven't done a very good job at it.
Nice escape attempt! It is your job to prove that Anakin is going to blitz Vitiate because you made this claim in the first place. My contention is that Force powers can be unleashed instantly.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Others Plagueis felled with his hands by snapping necks and putting his fists through armored torsos.

In blinding motion his hands and feet smashed skulls and windpipes.

I meant with a lightsaber.
Whether Plagueis is a physical brute and/or a master swordsman is not going to give him edge over Vitiate who is known to overwhelm foes with similar advantages over him with his power in the Force. Use your brain, please.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.
Interesting information; this nullifies your attempts to belittle Plagueis against Sidious as well.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
So where are we getting with this?
You tell me...

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Your double standards are annoying.
roll eyes (sarcastic)

My point is that EXPERT/SUPERB swordsmen existed during TOR era also; why are you arguing against this? Your double-standards are actually annoying.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He was lucky Sidious faked the part of being too weak, otherwise he'd eat his own saber.
Speculation continues at your end...

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Proves nothing.

Proves nothing.
Your responses prove that you are a stubborn jerk. Canonical sources offer conflicting accounts of Mace's confrontation with Sidious; the account demonstrated in the movie is the one with wider acceptance within Star Wars (canon) literature.

ROTS movie + SWTCE + SWTERC versus ROTS novel

NOTE: Sources on the left favor Mace.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
no expression

Mace was forced back on the defensive the whole time until he gained an advantage he wouldn't gain in a rematch. His feat is really no better than Dooku holding his own against Yoda.
Giving space is not necessarily a sign of being outclassed but rather a tactic employed to avoid getting injured or killed specially in a restricted setting. If Sidious had forced Mace to his knees then you would have a point but the opposite happened. In the movie, Mace disarmed Sidious by landing a boot on him.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
His feat is really no better than Dooku holding his own against Yoda.
"What did you say?" (Anakin Skywalker)

Sidious was so skilled that he outdueled both Maul and Opress simultaneously. In contrast, Dooku couldn't outduel Opress and Ventress simultaneously. Replace Ventress with Maul and the brothers would have overwhelmed Dooku. Mace outdueled Sidious when 3 other Jedi Masters couldn't and even the brothers couldn't. Your brain needs a CT scan.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The Complete Visual Dictionary was re-released in September 2012 and includes this quote:

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.
Too bad! This book: http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-The-Republic-Encyclopedia/dp/0756698391 - have been released a month later.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No problem. You concede the point?
I accept that Yoda > Dooku

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I know what he's capable of and he's not capable of taking down Dooku more times than not.
What a joke you really are.

He outclassed Dooku in this footage alone: http://www.swtor.com/info/media/trailers/return

Originally posted by Intrepid37
On Tatooine, The Clone Wars: The Visual Guide implies Dooku brought up the holocron to ''gain an advantage'' implying his force powers did nothing.
I don't understand?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Ventress brought down stones from a ceiling,
Link?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Kenobi stalemated Pre-Suit Vader in their force push.
Pre-Suit Vader have better showings with the Force then Dooku?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This contradits nothing. Just because neither the novel nor movie says it doesn't mean other sources can; I have cited one that does, concede and move on.
Anakin was vulnerable when Obi-Wan reached higher ground. Their is no sign or indication of any other vulnerability.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove the Jedi were on Dooku's level.
I am not in the mood to start another lengthy debate with you! I will shorten the argument: Their combined might would be significantly greater then that of (single) Dooku's so your argument is moot. Furthermore, HoT is among these Jedi and he have singlehandedly defeated very impressive foes.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen.
He is better duelist then even Luke?

The key word is "perhaps" in that statement.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
There's really no shame in that.
No! But it is shameful that he couldn't overcome other less capable duelists then Yoda.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Nick Gillard confirmed Kenobi was a level 8, Anakin and Mace were level 9's. Guess what, Dooku is an equal to Mace.
Friendly sparring contests prove nothing.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Thanks for proving how good Anakin is.
Obi-Wan is in the same boat, did you forget? Obi-Wan have dueled the brothers and survived.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku disarmed Savage twice.
This is prior to Dooku's confrontation with both Opress and Ventress or after?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not really. Dooku holding his own for a good 30 seconds against perhaps the best lightsaber duelist the Order ever had seen is well above Nyriss.
Baseless!

Outdueling too EXPERT duelists > Dooku lasting 30 seconds against one EXPERT duelist

SCOURGE WAS AN EXPERT SWORDSMAN; at the Academy even the instructors had been reluctant to face him in the training ring. When the dark side flowed through him, his blade was more than a weapon. It became an extension of his will. (SWTOR: Revan)

Ben "cA" Risa

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2013/05/21/technology/21-baby/21-baby-custom1.gif

lol

Best gif ever.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Obi-Wan is in the same boat, did you forget? Obi-Wan have dueled the brothers and survived.
Shadow Conspiracy makes it clear circumstances was in his favor.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is prior to Dooku's confrontation with both Opress and Ventress or after?
Same episode, a little earlier.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Baseless!

Outdueling too EXPERT duelists > Dooku lasting 30 seconds against one EXPERT duelist

SCOURGE WAS AN EXPERT SWORDSMAN; at the Academy even the instructors had been reluctant to face him in the training ring. When the dark side flowed through him, his blade was more than a weapon. It became an extension of his will. (SWTOR: Revan)
If you think Yoda would anything but completely stomp on Scourge then you've crossed the line.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He got played, yeah, but I have proved he went for the kill. Done deal.
Anakin's confrontation with Dooku on Naboo affirms that the latter didn't stood a chance against the former in a martial clash. However, had Dooku not followed the plan, he had a good chance at defeating Anakin or escaping alive.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Once again, it is not my job to prove his speed, it's yours.
Nice escape attempt! It is your job to prove that Anakin is going to blitz Vitiate because you made this claim in the first place. My contention is that Force powers can be unleashed instantly.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I assume that you think of me as a Sidious fanboy, Dooku fanboy, Plagueis fanboy, Yoda fanboy and Anakin fanboy, right?
Conclusion: You are a PT fanboy.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No.
See above

Originally posted by Intrepid37
As would I, but your point is moot because they have clashed.
Nice attempt to dodge an argument. The message that I am trying to convey to you is that don't fully rely upon feats in debates; their are additional ways to evaluate a character in the context of power and skill.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Wait, you think Zannah can take Plagueis? laughing out loud

Point is that she can atomize human bodies too so Plagueis managing to atomize 6 humans simultaneously isn't such a big deal as you are making it out to be. Other powerful characters can accomplish the same with their powers.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I don't remember the original point but Revan hasn't displayed lightning of that calibier.
Revan is a practitioner of both Jedi and Sith powers. He is unorthodox.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It didn't disintegrate and it was after she absorbed saber.
It didn't disintegrate?

http://s24.postimg.org/710kyk0ad/Cliff1.png

http://s21.postimg.org/qnhj7y8uv/Cliff2.png

Their were other cliffs (or it was a belt) in the region but she destroyed the rocky formation she hit.

What is disintegration?

Break up into parts, typically as the result of impact or decay. (Google)

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Malgus and Revan have never disintegrated.
They have disintegrated concrete/stone:

At the far end of the hall, another half a dozen of the Imperial Guard rounded the corner. Revan reached out with the Force and ripped the vaulted stone archway in the ceiling above them free from its setting. A shower of dust and debris rained down on the reinforcements, sending them into temporary retreat. (SWTOR: Revan)

Anger refilled him, overcame him. A shout of hate, raw and jagged, burst from his throat. Power went with it, shattering a nearby column and sending a rain of stone shards through the room. (SWTOR: Deceived)

Originally posted by Intrepid37
As for Plagueis' feat, re-read the text:

He stopped once to conjure a Force wave that all but atomized the bodies of six Maladians.

In this case, it's not a different power - a Force wave is a telekinetic power. Plagueis' Force wave was just that good.
Ok! However, other powerful individuals could be just as potent with their telekinetic abilities.

The Force wave that Revan conjured which send Vitiate packing may have atomized defenseless humans in the latter's place. Similarly, the Force wave that Bane conjured would also have atomized defenseless individuals.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
There's nothing to concede.
When Revan confronted Vitiate; the latter continued to (gradually) up his game until he beat the former. As far as the telekinetic abilities are concerned, neither Revan and nor Vitiate wanted to or had time to attempt to collapse the structure around them because they were; (1) fighting in it; (2) and wouldn't give each other sufficient time to attempt to bring down the structure.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's not my job to prove it. You said he collapsed it, you prove it.
You tell me why the Dark Temple fell apart then since you are denying my explanation.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It pales in comparison to other Force waves.
sick

The feat is one of the greatest display of power in the mythos.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You can't defend it because it's scripted so stop it.
My point is that Vitiate packs devastating powers and depending upon your actions, he uses them.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Get your head out of your ass and prove it.
What the hell you are babbling about? I have already proved that individuals as strong and/or stronger then Yoda have served Vitiate. It makes sense to point out that Vitiate is much stronger then PT/OT era characters.

Read this:

It remains a mystery how the Emperor learned of the council's treachery. He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel. (SWTORE, Page 157)

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He did. Had Mace not redirected its path he'd have crashed into a wall.
So this bodes well for Mace actually...

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It doesn't. Considering that there are now powerful beings pre-PT it makes it even more impressive.
His performance doesn't warrant him that accolade anymore. He might be among the best Jedi but he is certainly not "an even greater Sith Lord." This particular phrase is hyperbolic and the latest updates in the lore make it moot.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He's still among the greatest bladesbeings in the history of the Order.
Their are likely to many more "among the" like him in the Order's 25000 year long history. And their can be great variation in the skill department even the "among the" category; Mace >>>> Kolar

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Point?
ROTS novel has been written in a unique fashion; It seems like someone within the Universe is describing the events. Keyword: "Internal Viewpoint."

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anakin's confrontation with Dooku on Naboo affirms that the latter didn't stood a chance against the former in a martial clash. However, had Dooku not followed the plan, he had a good chance at defeating Anakin or escaping alive.
Of course Dooku has a good chance in defeating Anakin. He has a good chance against anyone from the era that is not Yoda and Sidious. Doesn't change the fact that Anakin has had Dooku on the defensive in each of their fights and has always overcome his force powers.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nice escape attempt! It is your job to prove that Anakin is going to blitz Vitiate because you made this claim in the first place. My contention is that Force powers can be unleashed instantly.
I never claimed Anakin is going to blitz Maul, just that he is far faster than ''instantly''.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Conclusion: You are a PT fanboy.
Let me guess, everyone that disagrees with you is a PT fanboy?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nice attempt to dodge an argument. The message that I am tryingto convey to you is that don't fully rely upon feats in debates; their are additional ways to evaluate a character in the context of power and skill.
Statements?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Point is that she can atomize human bodies too so Plagueis managing to atomize 6 humans simultaneously isn't such a big deal as you are making it out to be. Other powerful characters can accomplish the same with their powers.
She did it as a child and as a mistake and have never replicated such power.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan is a practitioner of both Jedi and Sith powers. He is unorthodox.
Sure thing.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It didn't disintegrate?

http://s24.postimg.org/710kyk0ad/Cliff1.png

http://s21.postimg.org/qnhj7y8uv/Cliff2.png

Their were other cliffs (or it was a belt) in the region but she destroyed the rocky formation she hit.

What is disintegration?

Break up into parts, typically as the result of impact or decay. (Google)
She blasted Malgus with enough power that he went through the cliff. Not disintegration.

And she gained that power after she absorbed his lightsaber.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
They have disintegrated concrete/stone:

At the far end of the hall, another half a dozen of the Imperial Guard rounded the corner. Revan reached out with the Force and ripped the vaulted stone archway in the ceiling above them free from its setting. A shower of dust and debris rained down on the reinforcements, sending them into temporary retreat. (SWTOR: Revan)
Not disintegration. He ripped a stone out of the ceiling which caused dust and debris to fall down. That's like saying Ventress disintegrated the ceiling.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anger refilled him, overcame him. A shout of hate, raw and jagged, burst from his throat. Power went with it, shattering a nearby column and sending a rain of stone shards through the room. (SWTOR: Deceived)
Force scream. Nice try though.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Ok! However, other powerful individuals could be just as potent with their telekinetic abilities. .
I don't give a flying **** about what they possibly can do. We could say Dooku could lift double as many stones as he did, we could say DoE Bane can disintegrate without his orbalisks, whatever

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The Force wave that Revan conjured which send Vitiate packing may have atomized defenseless humans in the latter's place. Similarly, the Force wave that Bane conjured would also have atomized defenseless individuals.
No proof.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
When Revan confronted Vitiate; the latter continued to (gradually) up his game until he beat the former. As far as the telekinetic abilities are concerned, neither Revan and nor Vitiate wanted to or had time to attempt to collapse the structure around them because they were; (1) fighting in it; (2) and wouldn't give each other sufficient time to attempt to bring down the structure.
I didn't mean for Vitiate to collapse the structure, just to his immense powers that are capable of doing that.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You tell me why the Dark Temple fell apart then since you are denying my explanation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpnJeYVvhps

2:54, Temple is still there.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
sick

The feat is one of the greatest display of power in the mythos.
A Force wave powerful enough to shatter bones is one of the greatest displays in the mythos? laughing out loud

Also, he gathered power when Kas'im was talking, it's not something he can do in a normal fight against other opponents because they won't stand and talk mid-fight.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My point is that Vitiate packs devastating powers and depending upon your actions, he uses them.
Am I supposed to be somewhat impressed?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What the hell you are babbling about? I have already proved that individuals as strong and/or stronger then Yoda have served Vitiate. It makes sense to point out that Vitiate is much stronger then PT/OT era characters.
No. Yoda at this point is the strongest Jedi to ever live and disarmed the strongest Sith to ever live.
Read this:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So this bodes well for Mace actually...
No?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
His performance doesn't warrant him that accolade anymore. He might be among the best Jedi but he is certainly not "an even greater Sith Lord." This particular phrase is hyperbolic and the latest updates in the lore make it moot.
It's not hyperbolic nor has it been retconned. Stop acting like you're have authority to say things like that.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Their are likely to many more "among the" like him in the Order's 25000 year long history. And their can be great variation in the skill department even the "among the" category; Mace >>>> Kolar
I don't care about your speculation. He was given the quote and it's goddamn good hype. But let me guess, Vitiate would beat Kolar in a lightsaberduel.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
ROTS novel has been written in a unique fashion; It seems like someone within the Universe is describing the events. Keyword: "Internal Viewpoint."
It's canon bud.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku overwhelming Anakin with the force on Tatooine didn't help him as he was put on his ass twice.
I have seen the fight and I maintain that Dooku's limitations do not apply to someone as powerful in the dark side as Vitiate is. The latter will annihilate Anakin.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShpFLOmjAe8

2:30
I don't use this particular source for debates because it has (immensely) exaggerated the power and skill of all PT era Force-users and these depictions are contradictory to the depictions of the same characters in the higher-budget (more realistic) mediums. If PT era Force-users packed such power and skill on average, they would have cleared that arena in Geonosis with ease since they numbered 200 in that fight. Mace was in that arena too and I didn't see him destroying armies with his powers in the movie. heck, even Yoda didn't demonstrate such capability in the more realistic variant of the Clone Wars cartoons (For example: watch the Ambush episode).

I have advised you before to not rely upon contradictory sources to support your arguments because they generate confusion and nothing else.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No, but his one showing is pretty good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y54mkVkBc0

2:40. Consider Dooku's absolute ragdolling of Kenobi, his powers are immense.
Of-course! I don't expect Anakin to be poor in the use of the Force, but he was mediocre in the context of Force mastery during his tenure as a Jedi since he honed his talents like a Jedi Knight (warrior type) rather then like a Jedi Consular or even a Jedi Knight (Sentinel type). Jedi Consulars are expected to be formidable in the use of the Force but Jedi Knights are expected to be formidable in the use of the blade. Of-course, this doesn't means that a Jedi Knight cannot become a powerful Force-user with time or acquire some Jedi Consular like talents but Anakin hadn't reached this point prior to getting struck down by Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove it.
This;

-H3o8r7JgGY

You know what happens next, right?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove it.
roll eyes (sarcastic)

If you are not willing to use your brain, do not expect me to expand much on my points for you.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Obviously prior to Luke.
Then why did you cited that quote? You think that Yoda cannot be matched in skill by an ancient? Are you insecure about this or something?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Who has he not overcome?
He slowly but surely lost his edge over some of his greatest opponents in martial aspects. He had is Force mastery to aid him during difficult situations. He is powerful and a master swordsman but he is not such a big deal that some of his fans make him out to be. Dooku still have his limitations; I like this character but PT/OT lore fans unnecessarily exaggerate him and this forces me to call a spade a spade. I don't need lectures on Dooku's skill because the character is not alien to me and I can observe his performances.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Anakin is a very good fighter. He has fought as an equal with Mace who, at the time of Attack of the Clones was second to only Yoda.
Look! Anakin was becoming stronger with passage of time but he was not in the league of Mace, Yoda and Sidious.

This is from GL, I believe:

"You have to be either Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious"

In-fact differentiation was made clear in the ROTS movie; Yoda forbade Obi-Wan to confront Sidious because the Sith Master was too strong for him. Obi-Wan proved to be a match for the (fallen) Anakin and they had a long duel.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Gillard's statement had nothing to do with sparring.
Mace and Dooku sparred once and people often use that event as indication of Dooku being equal of Mace in lightsaber skill. This is logical fallacy. And who cares about Gillard's rankings when we have so much canonical material to consider?

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Of course Dooku has a good chance in defeating Anakin. He has a good chance against anyone from the era that is not Yoda and Sidious. Doesn't change the fact that Anakin has had Dooku on the defensive in each of their fights and has always overcome his force powers.
Dooku cannot defeat Mace (ROTS incarnation); Dooku isn't supremely strong in the dark side (his limitations do not apply to relatively stronger individuals).

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I never claimed Anakin is going to blitz Maul, just that he is far faster than ''instantly''.
You mean Vitiate? Well, "instantly" may not be an ideal choice of word but Force powers can be unleashed at such a speed that it is not easy to evade them. Some powers cannot be evaded simply by the way.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Let me guess, everyone that disagrees with you is a PT fanboy?
Those who lowball characters of the ancient lore without logical and valid basis. You certainly qualify.

For example: you want me to prove that a Jedi Strike Team (of four of the "strongest" Jedi of the Order) outclasses a single Count Dooku in might. Your idiocy is endless.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Statements?
Do some work now instead of wasting my time with silly reponses; go back a few pages and check out my original assertion.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
She did it as a child and as a mistake and have never replicated such power.
She can atomize defenseless humans with her Sith Sorcery. In-fact, she was destroying Bane's body with her Sith Sorcery.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sure thing.
Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
She blasted Malgus with enough power that he went through the cliff. Not disintegration.

And she gained that power after she absorbed his lightsaber.
Genius, I stated that she could disintegrate rocky formations with her powers; do you think that Malgus is defenseless like Maladins? Follow the argument properly and stop wasting my time.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not disintegration. He ripped a stone out of the ceiling which caused dust and debris to fall down. That's like saying Ventress disintegrated the ceiling.
Genius, he ripped a "vaulted stone archway" free from its foundation and it fell to the ground in the form of debris.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Force scream. Nice try though.
How he performed the feat is not important; he performed the feat of disintegration which is important.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I don't give a flying **** about what they possibly can do. We could say Dooku could lift double as many stones as he did, we could say DoE Bane can disintegrate without his orbalisks, whatever
No, this isn't how logic works. It is important to focus on the effort put in to performing a feat.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No proof.

I didn't mean for Vitiate to collapse the structure, just to his immense powers that are capable of doing that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpnJeYVvhps

2:54, Temple is still there.
Genius, that is a BETA build.

This is the polished build:

zoFNJ7UophU

Once the Temple begins to fall apart, the Jedi Knight escapes but the screen goes temporarily blank and when it returns, we get to see the Jedi Knight inside his ship.

My original assertion is that Vitiate have demonstrated the capability to collapse buildings with his power if he wants to. Whether he chooses to fully destroy the Dark Temple or not remains to be seen but he has the capability which is important. This is what the polished version of the game makes apparent.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
A Force wave powerful enough to shatter bones is one of the greatest displays in the mythos? laughing out loud

Also, he gathered power when Kas'im was talking, it's not something he can do in a normal fight against other opponents because they won't stand and talk mid-fight.
Haven't you read Darth Bane: Path of Destruction?

The power unleashed by Bane collapsed a building. Kas'im certainly tolerated the power (since he isn't a defenseless Maladin) but he couldn't prevent tons of rock to crush him beneath. The whole event is one of the greatest display of power in the whole mythos.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Am I supposed to be somewhat impressed?
Let me guess! You are impressed by PT era characters only.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No. Yoda at this point is the strongest Jedi to ever live and disarmed the strongest Sith to ever live.
Read this:
Back to square one. roll eyes (sarcastic)

You are not just a fanboy but a deluded one who cannot understand the importance of "creative liberties" and their impact on older content during expansion process.

Listen you stupid fanboy; TOR era lore have introduced some characters that (as per the available descriptions and hints) seem to be stronger then any incarnation of Yoda and even Sidous up till OT part. It remains to be seen how Yoda and Sidious will be revaluated on the basis of this update in the Star Wars mythos. The sources which you cling to for arguments predate SWTOR. Therefore, caution is advised until new sources come up and clarify the situation.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No?
roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's not hyperbolic nor has it been retconned. Stop acting like you're have authority to say things like that.
It gives the hyperbolic vibe in the light of the latest updates made to the mythos. Point is not about authority; point is about analyzing Dooku's accomplishments and comparing them to those of the ancients and then making a logical deduction about his relative standing in the mythos in the context of his skills and power accordingly.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I don't care about your speculation. He was given the quote and it's goddamn good hype. But let me guess, Vitiate would beat Kolar in a lightsaberduel.
Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's canon bud.
We have to put things in to perspective. It is important to differentiate actual observations from claims made by historians within the mythos. Similarly, it is important to differentiate character's POV from information offered in a source which acts as a 3rd part guide and vice versa.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
George Lucas no longer owns Star Wars mythos. This science fiction work is now fully open to "creative liberties" aspect.
You aren't Disney either.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, any (educated) person can figure out a retcon; their is no need to explicitly point it out. Why do you think that "updated" versions of books are often released?
Cool that the ''updated'' version of the Encyclopedia claims Sidious to be the most powerful.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
When Sidious was promoted with "the most powerful Sith Lord" accolade; Vitiate wasn't invented. The authors, who previously promoted Sidious with the aforementioned accolade, would now have to revaluate their previous decision in the light of the expanded lore; Sidious may or may not retain his accolade in the light of the expanded lore. And even if he does so, it doesn't makes much difference because his position is not going to discredit Vitiate's talents and accomplishments and neither it would affirm that Vitiate cannot hurt or kill Sidious in single combat (Sidious actually have fallen to less powerful foes). You can also learn from the example of Abeloth; despite being considerably stronger then Luke, she (or IT) lost to him in several battles. So power dynamics and their effectiveness in the mythos aren't so black and white.
Unless new sources confirm Vitiate as more powerful than Sidious, guess what, it stands.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Plagueis still have the accolade.
Up until the point, yes. The re-released version of the Encyclopedia confirms Sidious as the most powerful ever.

Sidious himself implies he surpassed Plagueis:

Sidious paused, then, in derision, added, "Plagueis the Wise, who in his time truly was, except at the end, trusting that the Rule of Two had been superseded, and failed to realize that he would not be excused from it. Plagueis the Wise, who forged the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy has ever known, and yet who forgot to leave a place for himself; whose pride never allowed him to question that he would no longer be needed."

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The power was unleashed in the form of a wave. It would affect 1 maladin in the same way as it would 12 maladins. However, its effectiveness against a relatively more durable droid may not be the same because durability would make the difference.
Just because it is a wave doesn't mean that it is as easy to kill one maladian as it is to kill twelve. If there is only one target, the wave can focus on that target, if there is more, guess what, less power per target.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This doesn't disproves my point; Maladins were vulnerable to Force powers and a human will definitely get hurt by falling from stairs and/or being hurled at the wall. Their are many examples in Star Wars that support my assertion.
This doesn't disprove my point either. The maladians were armored, atomizing twelve while injured is better than disintegrating a droid.

Also, wasn't Vitiate at a nexus at the time he disintegrated T3?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You mean Vitiate? Well, instantly may not be an ideal choice of word but Force powers can be unleashed at such a speed that it is not easy to evade them. Some powers cannot be evaded simply by the way.
I meant Vitiate, sorry for that.

If he can kill Ahsoka in an instant that's fine but that is more than enough time for Anakin to stab Vitiate to death.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Force showings above Vitiate? He haven't defeated a Jedi Strike Team (of very powerful Jedi) in single combat. No Sith Lord have demonstrated this level of capability in single combat yet.
What we need is proof that Vitiate can take on powerful individuals such as Dooku, Plagueis, Sidious etc.

Faster? Plagueis.
Stronger? Plagueis.
Better telekinetic showings? Plagueis.
More skilled with a lightsaber? Plagueis.
More powerful lightning? Vitiate.

And for the record, Plagueis is more powerful than Vitiate as per the backcover.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This indicates that you are arguing for the sake of argument and wasting my time and effort.

To refresh your memory: HoT outdueled some EXPERT swordsmen.
So have a lot of Jedi.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have addressed this part already.

HoT is also a real top-tier individual; in-fact, he subdued an opponent who have killed over a 1000 Jedi and Sith in single combat. This accomplishment alone puts HoT on par with perhaps Luke or possibly better?
It doesn't. The kill count is impressive but not deciding. Let's take Dooku, has HoT done anything suggesting he can kill Dooku in a contest of either lightsabers or force powers?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Mace did (legitimately) got the upperhand in this duel and was in the position to kill Palpatine; this doesn't means that Sidious lost his power, but GL did not ruled out the possibility of him (Sidious) getting killed. As per the movie based depiction, the Sith Lord knew that he could die so he used the opportunity provided to him-with arrival of Anakin-to his advantage and did his best to manipulate Anakin to help him. In-fact, Sidious had already planted the seeds of this manipulation prior to his encounter with Mace so Anakin's timely arrival was a blessing for him.
Lucas' words doesn't mention how or why Mace disarmed Sidious, just that he did. Novelization makes it clear it was circumstancial.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What you are not realizing is the fact that Mace sank in to Vaapad and then began to match Sidious's dueling abilities. When no one could gain the upperhand, Mace then put his another talent to use to gain the upperhand; shatterpoint. He legitimately outdueled Sidious because he saw an opening via shatterpoint and exploited it.
He gained the upper hand through a shatterpoint that won't be there in a certain re-match.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You need to recheck the novel; Mace experienced two shatterpoints during the fight; the first one granted him the edge he needed to disarm Palpatine and the second one was Anakin whom he failed to make his ally.
There was only one shatterpoint, Anakin.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And no! Mace (eventually) surpassed Dooku in skill and power.
He never did.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If Yoda hadn't played nice, he would have subdued Dooku.
Not sure what you mean by ''playing nice'', but I agree; had Yoda gotten 20 seconds more Dooku would be done for.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And Sidious will eliminate Dooku relatively faster.
Faster than whom?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You suck at analyzing things; Malgus tolerated everything thrown at him during much of the duel and when he eventually used his emotions to fuel his power, he became an unstoppable force and then proceeded to slay the significantly skilled and experienced Jedi Master. Yoda is not the focus here; Dooku is, and he is outclassed by Malgus.
No. Dooku's telekinetic showings are far above what is shown of Darach's and so is his swordmastery.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have seen the fight and I maintain that Dooku's limitations do not apply to someone as powerful in the dark side as Vitiate is. The latter will annihilate Anakin.
Dooku has no limitations of use of the force.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't use this particular source for debates because it has (immensely) exaggerated the power and skill of all PT era Force-users and these depictions are contradictory to the depictions of the same characters in the higher-budget (more realistic) mediums. If PT era Force-users packed such power and skill on average, they would have cleared that arena in Geonosis with ease since they numbered 200 in that fight. Mace was in that arena too and I didn't see him destroying armies with his powers in the movie. heck, even Yoda didn't demonstrate such capability in the more realistic variant of the Clone Wars cartoons (For example: watch the Ambush episode).
The show is inconsistent with some characters, Mace for example. It isn't inconsitent with Ventress because she hasn't any feats in the new CW.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have advised you before to not rely upon contradictory sources to support your arguments because they generate confusion and nothing else.
It's canon. Ventress ripped stones down from a ceiling, Dooku put her on the floor with a finger.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
IOf-course! I don't expect Anakin to be poor in the use of the Force, but he was mediocre in the context of Force mastery during his tenure as a Jedi since he honed his talents like a Jedi Knight (warrior type) rather then like a Jedi Consular or even a Jedi Knight (Sentinel type). Jedi Consulars are expected to be formidable in the use of the Force but Jedi Knights are expected to be formidable in the use of the blade. Of-course, this doesn't means that a Jedi Knight cannot become a powerful Force-user with time or acquire some Jedi Consular like talents but Anakin hadn't reached this point prior to getting struck down by Obi-Wan.
Did you watch the feat Anakin performed? Very impressive. Kenobi stalemating Anakin proves he is a good telekinetic.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This;

-H3o8r7JgGY

You know what happens next, right?
There is zero proof Anakin became vulnerable in that moment. I have given you a quote that he was vulnerable, nowhere is it stated he was only vulnerable in the end.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
roll eyes (sarcastic)

If you are not willing to use your brain, do not expect me to expand much on my points for you.
What should I make of this?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Then why did you cited that quote? You think that Yoda cannot be matched in skill by an ancient? Are you insecure about this or something?
He can't, no.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He slowly but surely lost his edge over some of his greatest opponents in martial aspects. He had is Force mastery to aid him during difficult situations. He is powerful and a master swordsman but he is not such a big deal that some of his fans make him out to be. Dooku still have his limitations; I like this character but PT/OT lore fans unnecessarily exaggerate him and this forces me to call a spade a spade. I don't need lectures on Dooku's skill because the character is not alien to me and I can observe his performances.
If you could observe his performances you'd realise disintegrating a droid isn't out of Dooku's league.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Look! Anakin was becoming stronger with passage of time but he was not in the league of Mace, Yoda and Sidious.

This is from GL, I believe:

"You have to be either Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious"
He was talking of Jedi.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And who cares about Gillard's rankings when we have so much canonical material to consider?
Yeah, like Dark Rendezvous' statement of Dooku being an equal to Mace and their evenly fought fight on Boz Pity?

Intrepid37

After reading the last of your post, I'm not really interested in this discussion not to mention it's horribly off-topic. The original point was that Anakin could beat Vitiate because he has been able to shrug off Dooku's force attacks which are as good as Vitiate's considering Vitiate's best feat was done on a nexus. I have proven that Dooku went for the kill each and every time they fought and the only time he has subdued Anakin was with help. Nothing suggests Vitiate can subdue Anakin without the aid of a nexus.

Other points

-Atomizing twelve armored maladians while injured>>disintegrating a droid on a nexus.

-Force screams are, to my knowledge at least, not useable in combat.

-Mace beat Sidious with circumstances in his favor.

-Kenobi isn't a mediocre telekinetic.

-Sidious is still the most powerful Sith Lord to ever exist.

-Dooku is an equal to Mace.

Intrepid37

Having only 15 minutes to edit sucks.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The original point was that Anakin could beat Vitiate because he has been able to shrug off Dooku's force attacks

He has?

My understanding is that Dooku has constantly been able to overpower Skywalker and use it to his great advantage in battle.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by Nephthys
He has?

My understanding is that Dooku has constantly been able to overpower Skywalker and use it to his great advantage in battle.
He has overpowered Anakin but not to the extent where he has been tossed in a choke and rendered unconcious or put on the floor with a finger.

On Tatooine, Anakin pushes Dooku back with the Force; Dooku redirects the attack causing Anakin to fall on the sand but it had zero impact on the outcome; Anakin put Dooku on his ass a few seconds after that.

In their other duel, Dooku was getting choked on the steps until he blasts Anakin across the hall with his lightning, only for Anakin to force Dooku to flee a few seconds later.

The only time when Dooku has held the advantage over Anakin was on Naboo when he had four or so Magnaguards to aid himself, constantly weakening him until Dooku chokes him and blasts him with lightning until he goes unconcious.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dooku cannot defeat Mace (ROTS incarnation); Dooku isn't supremely strong in the dark side (his limitations do not apply to relatively stronger individuals).
He can.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You mean Vitiate? Well, "instantly" may not be an ideal choice of word but Force powers can be unleashed at such a speed that it is not easy to evade them. Some powers cannot be evaded simply by the way.
Covered elsewhere.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
She can atomize defenseless humans with her Sith Sorcery. In-fact, she was destroying Bane's body with her Sith Sorcery.
Sorcery is a different power than telekinetic.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Concession accepted.
There's no concession.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Genius, I stated that she could disintegrate rocky formations with her powers; do you think that Malgus is defenseless like Maladins? Follow the argument properly and stop wasting my time.
She can't disintegrate it with her own powers; she absorbed energy from his lightsaber.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Genius, he ripped a "vaulted stone archway" free from its foundation and it fell to the ground in the form of debris.
No different from what Ventress did.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
How he performed the feat is not important; he performed the feat of disintegration which is important.
Force screams aren't useable in combat.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No, this isn't how logic works. It is important to focus on the effort put in to performing a feat.
Dooku didn't show any level of restraint when he lifted the stones.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Genius, that is a BETA build.

This is the polished build:

zoFNJ7UophU

Once the Temple begins to fall apart, the Jedi Knight escapes but the screen goes temporarily blank and when it returns, we get to see the Jedi Knight inside his ship.
The only difference is that we don't get to see the temple in the newest version, not that it is still there.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Haven't you read Darth Bane: Path of Destruction?

The power unleashed by Bane collapsed a building. Kas'im certainly tolerated the power (since he isn't a defenseless Maladin) but he couldn't prevent tons of rock to crush him beneath. The whole event is one of the greatest display of power in the whole mythos.
Have you read it?

"I agree," Bane replied, hurling out the wave of Force energy he had been gathering during the Blademaster's speech.

There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.

Unfortunately, he couldn't shield the Temple around him. The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone, burying Kas'im beneath tons of rock and mortar. A second later the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi'lek's dying screams with a deafening rumble.

Bane watched the spectacle of the Temple's implosion from the safety of the ground at the foot of the stairs. Billowing clouds of dust rolled out from the wreckage and down the stairs toward him. Exhausted by the long lightsaber battle and drained by the sudden unleashing of the Force, he simply lay there until he was covered in a layer of fine white powder.

Eventually he struggled wearily to his feet. Reaching out with the Force, he sought some sign that Kas'im might still be alive beneath the mountain of stone. He felt nothing. Kas'im-his mentor, the only instructor at the Academy who had ever actually helped him-was dead.

Shattering bones is good but not comparable to atomizing armored assassins.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Let me guess! You are impressed by PT era characters only.
Really, everyone in Star Wars packs ''devesating powers'' as you like to call it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It gives the hyperbolic vibe in the light of the latest updates made to the mythos. Point is not about authority; point is about analyzing Dooku's accomplishments and comparing them to those of the ancients and then making a logical deduction about his relative standing in the mythos in the context of his skills and power accordingly.
If we analyze Dooku's accomplishments and compare them to Malak, Revan, Malgus, they're far better.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Concession accepted.
Nice consession. thumb up

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You aren't Disney either.
Star Wars is free from one man's dictatorship at least.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Cool that the ''updated'' version of the Encyclopedia claims Sidious to be the most powerful.
SW: TCVD is about PT/OT eras only.

SW: TERC is about all eras and no Sith Lord have been hyped in it.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Unless new sources confirm Vitiate as more powerful than Sidious, guess what, it stands.
Are you a Star Wars insider now?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Up until the point, yes. The re-released version of the Encyclopedia confirms Sidious as the most powerful ever.
See above

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious himself implies he surpassed Plagueis:

Sidious paused, then, in derision, added, "Plagueis the Wise, who in his time truly was, except at the end, trusting that the Rule of Two had been superseded, and failed to realize that he would not be excused from it. Plagueis the Wise, who forged the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy has ever known, and yet who forgot to leave a place for himself; whose pride never allowed him to question that he would no longer be needed."
This is Sidious's perception about himself.

Tenebrous interrupted him once more. "To be strong in the Force is one thing. But to believe oneself to be all-powerful is to invite catastrophe. Remember, that even in the ethereal realm we inhabit, the unforeseen can occur." (SW: DP)

Anyways, this is not a character's perception about himself:

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. (SWTOR)

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Just because it is a wave doesn't mean that it is as easy to kill one maladian as it is to kill twelve. If there is only one target, the wave can focus on that target, if there is more, guess what, less power per target.
Fail! Those Maladins got caught by the Force Wave simultaneously.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This doesn't disprove my point either. The maladians were armored, atomizing twelve while injured is better than disintegrating a droid.
What kind of armor? How much armored?

If Plagueis could kill then with bare hands;

Others Plagueis felled with his hands by snapping necks and putting his fists through armored torsos. (SW: DP)

- then the Maladins were not fully armored or their armor wasn't strong enough.

And T3-M4 isn't an ordinary droid.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Also, wasn't Vitiate at a nexus at the time he disintegrated T3?
The dark side is strong on Dromund Kaas but the entire planet is not a nexus. Dark Temple is a nexus, as per SW: TORE.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I meant Vitiate, sorry for that.

If he can kill Ahsoka in an instant that's fine but that is more than enough time for Anakin to stab Vitiate to death.
roll eyes (sarcastic)

If Anakin is so fast, why haven't he literally blitzed his enemies like Sidious once did? You are making no sense at all.

Look at this fight:

catXn4QAclI

Even the younglings could see Skywalker and Offee dueling. So you think that Vitiate's reflexes would be poorer then even younglings?

---

Vitiate have easily felled whole Strike Team(s). An example below:

http://s3.postimg.org/etzlwbb6b/Fight4.png

Vitiate's command of the dark side is such that he doesn't needs to concentrate on one individual at a time with his powers, he can easily destroy/subdue whole Strike Teams (of powerful individuals).

Also;

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. His corrupting influence is so complete that none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred. The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side.

Jedi Master Tol Braga's strike team was not the first group to succumb to the Sith leader's oppressive influence. Hundreds of years ago, the Jedi Revan and Malak discovered Dromund Kaas and confronted the Emperor. They fell to the dark side and returned to Republic space as Sith Lords. Since then, dozens more Jedi have followed the same path into evil. (SWTOR)

On the basis of evidence and available information, the duo of Anakin and Ahsoka will be crushed as well. More evidence of Vitiate's incredible power given below.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What we need is proof that Vitiate can take on powerful individuals such as Dooku, Plagueis, Sidious etc.
Their is no "we" here. Their is only "you" thus far. And you need a brain.

If Vitiate can take on 4 of the strongest Jedi in the Galaxy simultaneously and easily defeat them, you think that he cannot handle a lone Dooku, Plagueis and Sidious?

And you are putting Dooku in the league of Plagueis and Sidious? You should be ashamed of yourself.

Vitiate was so powerful that he have ruled over millions of Sith Lords (including generations of mighty Dark Councilors).

What is a Dark Council?

It oversees daily operations of a vast Imperial civilization. Only the strongest Sith Lords in the Galaxy can become members of the Dark Council and survive in it for long periods.

To serve on the Dark Council is to achieve the greatest position of honor, power, and influence in the Empire. Many Sith spend their lives plotting their ascension to the council, but with millions vying for only 12 seats, the competition is cutthroat. The powerful few who join the council often serve for only a few months, their lives cut short by internal power struggles or external enemies who target them for assassination. Once every few centuries, a bold few make the foolish mistake of defying the Emperor's will - a path that inevitably leads to ruin. (SW: TORE, Page 172)

When Vitiate's rule was (ever) challenged:

The Dark Council was formed to rule in the Emperor's stead. Should they fail or attempt treachery, the Emperor's punishment is swift and devastating. (SW: TORE, Page 172)

Some examples:

1. It remains a mystery how the Emperor learned of his council's treachery. He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel. (SW: TORE, Page 157)

2. "The Imperial Guard were only unleashed on Nyriss and two others. The Emperor must have assumed they were the ones least likely to answer his summons. The other nine were called together in the hours before the attack to meet with the Emperor at his citadel. None of them left alive." (Scourge, SWTOR: Revan)

Vitiate is this damn powerful. As pointed out to you before:

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. (SWTOR)

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Faster? Plagueis.
Stronger? Plagueis.
Better telekinetic showings? Plagueis.
More skilled with a lightsaber? Plagueis.
More powerful lightning? Vitiate.
- Subjective speculation
- Useless
- No
- Big deal?

On the basis of available evidence, Vitiate is much more likely to overwhelm Plagueis with his powers then the opposite.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
And for the record, Plagueis is more powerful than Vitiate as per the backcover.
FYI:

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. (SWTOR)

Originally posted by Intrepid37
So have a lot of Jedi.
You have a list?

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku has no limitations of use of the force.
roll eyes (sarcastic)

I failed to see the truth.

This truth. that he, the avatar of dark, Supreme Master of the Sith Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the light had ever known . . . can break a planet apart with a thought.

That he have unlimited power. Wow.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The show is inconsistent with some characters, Mace for example. It isn't inconsitent with Ventress because she hasn't any feats in the new CW.
Ventress isn't envisioned as being impressive in the use of the Force or pack Sith Inquisitor like talents by George Lucas; this is why she doesn't have any notable feats in the (new) CW. In contrast, many other characters have some feats in the (new) CW including Anakin.

The (old) CW have exaggerated the capabilities of (all) PT era Force-users. But if you are willing to use this source to support your arguments then do no pick and choose from it to further your agenda. As per this source, Mace will shit on Dooku.

Also, if TOR era characters are featured in a source like this one, they will look godly. So stick to realistic mediums.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's canon. Ventress ripped stones down from a ceiling, Dooku put her on the floor with a finger.
I have mentioned my reservations.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Did you watch the feat Anakin performed? Very impressive. Kenobi stalemating Anakin proves he is a good telekinetic.
Anakin performed that impressive feat using both of his hands, giving it his maximum that he could muster at that time.

This explains how Anakin was able to perform that feat:

The Jedi Temple was the greatest nexus of Force energy in the Republic; its ziggurat design focused the Force the way a lightsaber's gemstone focused its energy stream. (ROTS Novel)

During his duel against Obi-Wan, Anakin wasn't fighting on a nexus and he used one hand; the power that Anakin could muster by using one hand was matched by Obi-Wan. I don't see the comparison as a valid one.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
There is zero proof Anakin became vulnerable in that moment. I have given you a quote that he was vulnerable, nowhere is it stated he was only vulnerable in the end.
If Anakin wasn't vulnerable at that moment, why did he get injured by Obi-Wan? Why Obi-Wan warned him not to jump?

In addition;

Despite his powers and years of attunement to Obi-Wan, his rage had blocked his ability to sense his former Master's presence on Mustafar until he saw the Jedi standing in the hatch of Padme's star ship.

He also never imagined that Obi-Wan possessed the strength to bring him down so brutally. (SW: Rise and Fall of Darth Vader, 2007)

So once again! What is the vulnerability?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What should I make of this?
Those Jedi were among the strongest Jedi of the Order. Why is this do difficult for you to digest?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He can't, no.
roll eyes (sarcastic)

If this is your reasoning ability, do not expect to reach an understanding with me. It isn't written in stone that Yoda should be the top duelist barring Luke.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
If you could observe his performances you'd realise disintegrating a droid isn't out of Dooku's league.
Maybe but depends upon the droid's durability.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He was talking of Jedi.
Nice attempt at dodging the point.

Read this again:

He also never imagined that Obi-Wan possessed the strength to bring him down so brutally. (SW: Rise and Fall of Darth Vader, 2007)

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Yeah, like Dark Rendezvous' statement of Dooku being an equal to Mace and their evenly fought fight on Boz Pity?
I am talking about Mace at the end of clone wars.

Even on Boz Pity, Dooku ran away; correct me, if I am wrong here.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He can.
Watch this:

-7hBZNsPnyg

Do you think that Dooku is as good as Mace (ROTS incarnation) now?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Covered elsewhere.
Failed in that attempt.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sorcery is a different power than telekinetic.
I know! But she has the capability to atomize defenseless humans, be it through other talents. Focal point is that the capability to atomizing defenseless humans isn't unique to Plagueis.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
There's no concession.
Revan can atomize defenseless humans with his powers; his raw power is such that he easily handled a dark side power lethal enough to atomize defenseless humans. Therefore, he can also unleash power which can do the aforementioned deed. Common sense.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
She can't disintegrate it with her own powers; she absorbed energy from his lightsaber.
She became stronger after this fight. Try better.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No different from what Ventress did.
What the hell Ventress have to do with this? Stop twisting my points.

Also, Ventress's feat is an unrealistic medium; if Revan was featured in that medium, he would have been depicted destroying armies as his story suggests.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Force screams aren't useable in combat.
But Malgus packs such power; only difference is that he performed that feat unintentionally.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku didn't show any level of restraint when he lifted the stones.
Dooku was doing his best.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The only difference is that we don't get to see the temple in the newest version, not that it is still there.
So now you are an SWTOR insider?

My original point stands...

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Have you read it?

"I agree," Bane replied, hurling out the wave of Force energy he had been gathering during the Blademaster's speech.

There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.

Unfortunately, he couldn't shield the Temple around him. The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone, burying Kas'im beneath tons of rock and mortar. A second later the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi'lek's dying screams with a deafening rumble.

Bane watched the spectacle of the Temple's implosion from the safety of the ground at the foot of the stairs. Billowing clouds of dust rolled out from the wreckage and down the stairs toward him. Exhausted by the long lightsaber battle and drained by the sudden unleashing of the Force, he simply lay there until he was covered in a layer of fine white powder.

Eventually he struggled wearily to his feet. Reaching out with the Force, he sought some sign that Kas'im might still be alive beneath the mountain of stone. He felt nothing. Kas'im-his mentor, the only instructor at the Academy who had ever actually helped him-was dead.

Shattering bones is good but not comparable to atomizing armored assassins.
You overlooked this part: and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid

The damage on the whole would be nearly as good as atomization.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Really, everyone in Star Wars packs ''devesating powers'' as you like to call it.
You are mistaken.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
If we analyze Dooku's accomplishments and compare them to Malak, Revan, Malgus, they're far better.
Unlike Dooku; Malak and Revan possessed the strength to efficiently run a Sith Empire and rule over lot of Sith (not just normal humans). Revan's combat based accomplishments trump that of Dooku's and Malak was one of the Revan's greatest foes. In contrast, Drooku have ruled over droids (how unfortunate). And Malgus is also stronger then Dooku on the basis of his feats alone. Lowballing TOR era characters will do you no good.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Nice consession. thumb up

You are mistaken.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Star Wars is free from one man's dictatorship at least.
You can't say something is retconned and expect people to believe you.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
SW: TCVD is about PT/OT eras only.

SW: TERC is about all eras and no Sith Lord have been hyped in it.
TCVD and TERC?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Are you a Star Wars insider now?
No?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is Sidious's perception about himself.
Doesn't make it false.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Fail! Those Maladins got caught by the Force Wave simultaneously.
It's sure as hell harder to atomize x6 flesh/armor than x1 flesh/armor. Common sense.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What kind of armor? How much armored?
Probably like Jango Fett is my guess.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If Plagueis could kill then with bare hands;

Others Plagueis felled with his hands by snapping necks and putting his fists through armored torsos. (SW: DP)

- then the Maladins were not fully armored or their armor wasn't strong enough.
...or Plagueis is that strong?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The dark side is strong on Dromund Kaas but the entire planet is not a nexus. Dark Temple is a nexus, as per SW: TORE.
If the dark side is strong on there it indicates a nexus.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If Anakin is so fast, why haven't he literally blitzed his enemies like Sidious once did? You are making no sense at all.
Because his opponents are fast enough not to get blitzed?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Look at this fight:

catXn4QAclI

Even the younglings could see Skywalker and Offee dueling. So you think that Vitiate's reflexes would be poorer then even younglings?
You have no proof they could see them duel. It might have been light, afterimages etc.

----------

Rest will be addressed later.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
On the basis of evidence and available information, the duo of Anakin and Ahsoka will be crushed as well. More evidence of Vitiate's incredible power given below.
The information provided is all about his mental domination: Revan makes it clear it takes a lot of power and exhausts him, Revan mentions that Malak and he were ''walking into a trap'', I recall Scourge mentioning his mental domination is the part of ''a long ritual''.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If Vitiate can take on 4 of the strongest Jedi in the Galaxy simultaneously and easily defeat them, you think that he cannot handle a lone Dooku, Plagueis and Sidious?
Being one of the strongest in the galaxy doesn't suggest you can on opponents with greater showings.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And you are putting Dooku in the league of Plagueis and Sidious? You should be ashamed of yourself.
I never did. In fact, I made it perfectly clear that Mace would get his ass handed to him again by Sidious. If you could read, I have Dooku as an equal to Mace.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate was so powerful that he have ruled over millions of Sith Lords (including generations of mighty Dark Councilors).
Succesful Sith Lord =/= succesful combatant.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What is a Dark Council?

It oversees daily operations of a vast Imperial civilization. Only the strongest Sith Lords in the Galaxy can become members of the Dark Council and survive in it for long periods. minating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. (SWTOR)
So what? Dooku consistently humiliates opponents the caliber of Council Members.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
- Subjective speculation
- Useless
- No
- Big deal?
-I have supported mine with feats of Plagueis. If you want me to consider your point, support yours.

Oh wait, Vitiate has no speed feats.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
On the basis of available evidence, Vitiate is much more likely to overwhelm Plagueis with his powers then the opposite.
How the hell is he gonna overwhelm Plagueis when Plagueis is too fast for him to even see?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
FYI:

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. (SWTOR)
At this point, the galaxy had never seen Plagueis or Sidious. Nice try though.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You have a list?
Pretty much every Council-member have, save for Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar (although Kolar is one of the greatest bladesbeings ever).

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
this is why she doesn't have any notable feats in the (new) CW.

In contrast, many other characters have some feats in the (new) CW including Anakin.
Not really the reason.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The (old) CW have exaggerated the capabilities of (all) PT era Force-users. But if you are willing to use this source to support your arguments then do no pick and choose from it to further your agenda.
It does not.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As per this source, Mace will shit on Dooku.
Covered this already.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anakin performed that impressive feat using both of his hands, giving it his maximum that he could muster at that time.
Still impressive.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This explains how Anakin was able to perform that feat:

The Jedi Temple was the greatest nexus of Force energy in the Republic; its ziggurat design focused the Force the way a lightsaber's gemstone focused its energy stream. (ROTS Novel)

During his duel against Obi-Wan, Anakin wasn't fighting on a nexus and he used one hand; the power that Anakin could muster by using one hand was matched by Obi-Wan. I don't see the comparison as a valid one.
Way to ignore following text:

With the thousands of Jedi and Padawans within it every day contemplating peace, seeking knowledge, and meditating on justice and surrender to the will of the Force, the Temple was a fountain of the light.
Anakin was a dark sider.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If Anakin wasn't vulnerable at that moment, why did he get injured by Obi-Wan? Why Obi-Wan warned him not to jump?
He wasn't only vulnerable at that moment, he was vulnerable throughout the fight.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Despite his powers and years of attunement to Obi-Wan, his rage had blocked his ability to sense his former Master's presence on Mustafar until he saw the Jedi standing in the hatch of Padme's star ship.

He also never imagined that Obi-Wan possessed the strength to bring him down so brutally. (SW: Rise and Fall of Darth Vader, 2007)
Thanks for helping my case. thumb up

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Those Jedi were among the strongest Jedi of the Order. Why is this do difficult for you to digest?
It's not but doesn't suggest they can take everyone out.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If this is your reasoning ability, do not expect to reach an understanding with me. It isn't written in stone that Yoda should be the top duelist barring Luke.
It is.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Maybe but depends upon the droid's durability.
Agreed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Read this again:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He also never imagined that Obi-Wan possessed the strength to bring him down so brutally. (SW: Rise and Fall of Darth Vader, 2007)
Pre-Suit Vader, not Anakin.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am talking about Mace at the end of clone wars.
Prove Mace got stronger between Clone Wars and Revenge of the Sith.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Even on Boz Pity, Dooku ran away; correct me, if I am wrong here.
He did but Jedi were hunting him.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Watch this:

-7hBZNsPnyg

Do you think that Dooku is as good as Mace (ROTS incarnation) now?
He is.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I know! But she has the capability to atomize defenseless humans, be it through other talents. Focal point is that the capability to atomizing defenseless humans isn't unique to Plagueis.
Agreed, but then again, I never claimed that.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan can atomize defenseless humans with his powers; his raw power is such that he easily handled a dark side power lethal enough to atomize defenseless humans. Therefore, he can also unleash power which can do the aforementioned deed. Common sense.
Possibly the worst logic I have ever seen regarding Star Wars. Revan absorbing lightning capable of reducing a Sith to ash in no way means he can reduce others to ash with the help of his force powers.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
She became stronger after this fight. Try better.
Good for her.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, Ventress's feat is an unrealistic medium; if Revan was featured in that medium, he would have been depicted destroying armies as his story suggests.
Bullshit.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
But Malgus packs such power; only difference is that he performed that feat unintentionally.
laughing out loud

Force screams is a completely useless point to prove disintegration isn't special. Malgus' demonstration isn't close to Anakin collapsing a tower. Even Plagueis shattered eardrums with it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dooku was doing his best.
Prove it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So now you are an SWTOR insider?
I don't need to be.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My original point stands...
It doesn't. I have provided evidence the Temple didn't ''come apart''. Provide evidence of the opposite or concede.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The damage on the whole would be nearly as good as atomization.
No.

Also, I don't remember the name of the place in where he and Kas'im fought but it was often described as ''very strong in the dark side'' implying that it's a dark side nexus.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are mistaken.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Unlike Dooku; Malak and Revan possessed the strength to efficiently run a Sith Empire and rule over lot of Sith (not just normal humans). Revan's combat based accomplishments trump that of Dooku's and Malak was one of the Revan's greatest foes. In contrast, Drooku have ruled over droids (how unfortunate). And Malgus is also stronger then Dooku on the basis of his feats alone. Lowballing TOR era characters will do you no good.
Running a Sith Empire doesn't make you a good combatant

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are mistaken.
Bad concession then. Still a concession.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The information provided is all about his mental domination: Revan makes it clear it takes a lot of power and exhausts him,
You are mistaken! You have failed to realize thus far that Vitiate is immortal and has gigantic supply of reserves at his disposal to keep him going like forever; he is not exhausted by his powers.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Revan mentions that Malak and he were ''walking into a trap'',
Revan's POV! He felt about this event in this manner because he and his companion were oblivious to the fact that Vitiate was aware about their presence and plan.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I recall Scourge mentioning his mental domination is the part of ''a long ritual''.
Scourge's POV

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Being one of the strongest in the galaxy doesn't suggest you can on opponents with greater showings.
No individual is expected to earn the accolade of being one of the strongest in the Galaxy without significant power and skills. And we are talking about a Strike Team of individuals with such repute.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I never did. In fact, I made it perfectly clear that Mace would get his ass handed to him again by Sidious. If you could read, I have Dooku as an equal to Mace.
Dooku is equal to Mace in what aspect exactly?

- If you consider swordsmanship then my counterargument is that Mace has Vaapad

- If you consider Force-mastery then my counterargument is that Mace has shatterpoint abilities and his showings in the low-budget Clone Wars medium exceed that of Dooku's; Mace isn't much explored in depiction of his Force powers in other sources, correct me if I am wrong. I prefer to not rely upon this particular source in debates but you are leaving me no choice.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Succesful Sith Lord =/= succesful combatant.
The ruler of a Sith Empire is supposed to be the strongest individual within the Empire. Otherwise, the ruler will not survive and will be replaced by another. Once again, you should be ashamed of yourself for making idiotic statements.

"This is also the reason there can be only one Dark Lord. The Sith must be ruled by a single leader: the very embodiment of the strength and power of the dark side. If the leader grows weak, another must rise to seize the mantle. The strong rule; the weak are meant to serve. This is the way it must be." (Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)

Originally posted by Intrepid37
So what? Dooku consistently humiliates opponents the caliber of Council Members.
There is difference between how individuals become members of the Sith Dark Council and Jedi Council. A seat in the Dark Council is earned after enduring cut-throat competition and this process ensures that only the strongest and smartest individuals make it to the Dark Council. This is not the case with Jedi High Council. Jedi can secure a spot in the Council on the basis of their wisdom, bravery and self-sacrifice oriented actions and not necessarily power. As an example: PT era Jedi High Council was not willing to give Anakin Skywalker a seat in the Council; he got the seat after Chancellor's request. Power wise, Anakin was Council-level individual but this factor alone was not enough.

Ascension to one of the Council seats is often a natural progression determined primarily by necessity and a Jedi's innate qualifications. Master Gardon Jard, a founding member of the Jedi Order, summarized it best: "Every Master of the High Council arrives in their proper time and place, in accord with the will of the Force." Deliberations by the Council's members over promoting new Masters are typically brief, as the best choice is often clear to all well in advance of a vacant leadership act. (SWTORE, Page 82)

In the nutshell, Dooku managing to humiliate some opponents the caliber of Jedi High Council doesn't prove much because Council members themselves can vary significantly in strength.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
-I have supported mine with feats of Plagueis. If you want me to consider your point, support yours.

Oh wait, Vitiate has no speed feats.
Look! Different authors have different writing styles and it is not necessary for a character to be explored in every context of Force-ability for the benefit of versus type debates. It is obvious from Vitiate's history that he isn't an individual who end-up getting blitzed in a fight because of his intelligence, sheer command of the dark side and experience. He packs good enough reflexes to figure out moves of his opponents.

Read this again and again till you get the memo:

Scourge expected them to search him, or at least instruct him to turn over his weapons. But Yarri and the others simply stood at attention, waiting for him to enter. The fact that they showed no concern over letting an armed Sith Lord speak to the Emperor face-to-face without any kind of preparation was a testament to the Emperor's unfathomable power. (SWTOR: Revan)

Lord Scourge is an example of a Sith warrior. Read more about Sith warrior here: http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes/sith-warrior

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Possibly the worst logic I have ever seen regarding Star Wars. Revan absorbing lightning capable of reducing a Sith to ash in no way means he can reduce others to ash with the help of his force powers.
Honestly speaking, you should be the last person to lecture about logic to others. Revan's raw power was sufficient enough to nullify the (expected) effect of such a potent Sith power on him; why wouldn't he be able to channel his raw power in to extremely lethal bursts of energy if he wanted to? Do you have doubts about his extraordinary command of the Force?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Good for her.
Concession accepted

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Bullshit.
Have you forgotten Revan's combat resume in Star Forge?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
laughing out loud

Force screams is a completely useless point to prove disintegration isn't special. Malgus' demonstration isn't close to Anakin collapsing a tower. Even Plagueis shattered eardrums with it.
Here is another example:

Still, he landed in a cocoon of power, hitting the ground in an explosion of might that shattered the stones around them and turned them into a hail of shrapnel. (SWTOR: Deceived)

Point is that Malgus packs the capability to disintegrate extremely durable objects.

In addition, correction about Anakin's feat: he collapsed a large statue (not a tower).

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove it.
Sure;

http://i44.tinypic.com/x4rnts.png

Comments: Dooku gathers his power

http://i42.tinypic.com/xqet6d.png

Comments: Dooku unleashes power with both of his hands

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I don't need to be.
Then you are not in the position to dictate your assumptions.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It doesn't. I have provided evidence the Temple didn't ''come apart''. Provide evidence of the opposite or concede.
Genius, you posted a BETA footage to support your argument which isn't the right thing to do. The developers CHANGED the same footage in final release of the game for a reason; they decided to depict that it was no longer safe to stay in the Dark Temple after Vitiate began to demolish it.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No.
It would be! Keep in mind that Plagueis also didn't actually absolutely atomize several Maladians. The key term is all but which means "very nearly."

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Also, I don't remember the name of the place in where he and Kas'im fought but it was often described as ''very strong in the dark side'' implying that it's a dark side nexus.
Planet Lehon

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Running a Sith Empire doesn't make you a good combatant
Covered above! The ruler of a Sith Empire has to be a good combatant to ensure his/her survival and control over it.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Bad concession then. Still a concession.
Prove it that everyone in the Star Wars packs devastating powers.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Then why do you have such a hard time understanding it hasn't been retconned?
You better drop Sidious being the most powerful Sith Lord argument for now.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Common sense please.
Real-world perspective cannot be overlooked in this case.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
In truth, Palpatine was well versed in the ways of the Force, having been apprentice to Darth Plagueis the Wise, a Sith Lord who was a master of arcane and unnatural knowledge. In true Sith tradition, Palpatine murdered his Master upon receiving the skill and ability to do so.

-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
But he didn't beat Palpatine in a fair duel.

Crackling from his fingertips, a web of blue lightning ground itself on the Muun's breathing device. Plagueis's eyes snapped open, the Force gathering in him like a storm, but he stopped short of defending himself. (SW: Plagueis)

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Bullshit.

...and in response to confronting Force powers, they didn't shrink or flee but simply changed tactics, moving with astounding agility to surround Plagueis and wait for openings.

With nothing more than the Force of his mind, Plagueis rattled the floor, knocking some of the assassins off their feet, but others rushed in to take their places, slashing at him with their vibroblades from every angle.
Seriously, are you even reading my responses properly?

I used the word "weren't" in my sentence. Do you know what the word "weren't" means?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You asked. I have no evidence so I gave you my guess.
So Maladians wear Mandalorian armor? Please stop making a fool out of yourself.

Maladians:-

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121002193535/starwars/images/1/1c/Attack_on_Plagueis.jpg

Jango Fett:-

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100202215527/starwars/images/c/cc/JangoFett-OP.jpg

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Putting fists through armored torsos, no matter what armor is proof of his strength, not that the armor is thin.
Nice attempt at dodging my point. Check the difference in armors above.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Then it makes no sense for you to argue that Vitiate brought down the temple.
Who brought down the Temple then? Either provide a valid answer or SU.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
As confirmed in The Cestus Deception, superior Jedi handicap themselves in order to have fair sparring matches.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YMB3WDbre90/URt0IUx28HI/AAAAAAAABwM/fMkF4uEHLGc/s320/ImpliedFacepalm.jpg

Did Anakin blitzed anyone in the Jedi Temple?

Originally posted by Intrepid37

Wait, moving with ''blinding speed'' or ''supernatural speed'' is comparable to be able to cover yourself in light?
What do you mean by "be able to cover yourself in light" part of your statement?

The Merchant

Almost clears, what's stopping him is LOTF Luke, he loses that one. LOTF Luke will take the match 10/10.

Nephthys

"Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?"

Wow, what a stupid statement. What can he do? Errrrrrr kill Count Dooku??? You arrogant shrew.

pencilcrayon

"EXPERT SWORDSMAN" can range from beings who are slow enough to be shot by a bounty hunter and having difficulty with 3 droids per wave ( Scourge in the Revan book ), to beings who can produce after images for even a very quick force sensitive. How are any of those "expert swordsman" comparable to even Maul, who's trained by the most powerful Sith Lord ever.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
"EXPERT SWORDSMAN" can range from beings who are slow enough to be shot by a bounty hunter and having difficulty with 3 droids per wave ( Scourge in the Revan book ), to beings who can produce after images for even a very quick force sensitive. How are any of those "expert swordsman" comparable to even Maul, who's trained by the most powerful Sith Lord ever.
roll eyes (sarcastic)

Scourge killed both of those Bounty Hunters, didn't he?

In addition, Scourge had problem dealing with the droids in UDM due to this reason;

Scourge nodded. Battling a living foe was intoxicating; with each attack and counter he felt a rush of heat coursing through his veins, energizing and empowering him. Yet he had felt almost none of that at the UDM plant. "When I fought the security droid, there was nothing to grab on to. It was cold. Empty."

"Precisely. You tried to feed off its nonexistent emotions, and in doing so only made yourself weaker. I wonder that this wasn't observed in you; even the most powerful gift needs guiding to be used effectively." She shook her head. "You are so used to using your gift that you neglect the most basic source of power: yourself. The next time you find yourself in a similar situation, you must turn your focus inward. Draw on your own emotions, and you will destroy your mechanical enemies as readily as you slaughter your organic ones."

Scourge nodded. He did not like being lectured, but her observation was a good one: he realized that he had, indeed, learned to rely on the emotions of his enemies to feed his power, and he had not seen that such a gift could also be a weakness. But one that, with time and practice, could be overcome.

"A valuable lesson, my lord. One I will take to heart."

---

Scourge was a natural siphon(er): he siphoned on the emotions of his opponents to fuel his power and not just his own. Scourge became so much addicted to his siphoning talent that he relied less on his emotions to fuel his power and this is was the flaw which Nyriss tutored him to address and he did so; against the Imperial Guard, Scourge used his own emotions to fuel his power in-addition to using the emotions of his opponents for the same purpose.

In comparison to Maul?

- Scourge became such a skilled swordsman that during his final days in the Sith academy, his Sith Masters were reluctant to duel him. He fought in many battles afterwards and became so popular he was handpicked by the Sith Emperor himself to help Nyriss in her struggle against her enemies.

- Scourge (in his prime; Emperor's Wrath incarnation) have kill record of over a thousand Jedi and Sith.

Maul seems humbled in comparison.

Intrepid37

Also, Scourge above Maul? Really?

pencilcrayon

Scourge was shot once and saved by his armor ( on two occasions ) Something that wouldn't happen to other Jedi at least not by one or two attackers.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Plagueis' kill count is 'two'. Grievous' is over hundred. Do you want to establish Grievous as a more worthy foe than Plagueis?
By the end of the Clone Wars, Grievous's skills had developed to such a degree that he was capable of taking on even (Jedi Master) Obi-Wan and kill him in single combat. So he wouldn't be a pushover for Plagueis in martial aspects of combat at-least.

Against Emperor's Wrath, Plagueis's only chance is with his Force-mastery. However complication is that Emperor's Wrath is virtually immortal; it is unclear at the moment that how he can be killed.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Being one of the Jedi's most famous duelists is no better than being one of the Order's most talented lightsaber instructors (Bulq), one of the Order's best duelists (Fisto), a celebrated swordsman (Tiin), one of the Order's finest duelists (Ti), one of the greatest bladesbeings ever produced by the Order (Kolar), being the second-best duelist in the Order (Windu), being the best duelist in the Order (Yoda), being a nearly unstoppable weapon (Maul), being one of the most powerful Jedi in the 25,000 year history of the Order and an even greater Sith (Dooku), being the most powerful of his generation (Anakin), being 'the' master of Soresu (Kenobi), having superb skills (Luminara)...
Nicely put hype looses its value if not complemented by feats/combat prowess. For example: Fisto lost not just to Sidious but also to Ventress. In contrast, Tinn and Kolar turned out be even worse then Fisto up against Sidious. Heck, Opress relatively put up a better fight against Sidious then the aforementioned 3 Jedi Masters.

Usma, at minimum, didn't turned out be a fodder for anybody; she lost only once as per available evidence but not without putting an epic fight. So a notch-up for Sith Lord Praven for being able to subdue her after a clash of "epic proportions" with her. In turn, this bodes very well for HoT's combat abilities; he is "considerably above" the risk of being within the fodder domain in the big picture.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I never said as much. In fact, I merely pointed out the stamina shown by Sidious and Plagueis (I can't remember the original point to be honest).
Well, such stamina is not exclusive to them. If you attempted to impress with this example, you failed in your task.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I never made the comparison. Besides, you know as well as I that both Sidious and Plagueis have better showings.
Once again! This is your subjective opinion. By virtue of available evidence, the very first notable opponent that HoT subdued in single combat is seemingly stronger then Dooku. And HoT proceeded to accomplish lot more later on. HoT even struck down a Voice of the Emperor in a duel of "apocalyptic proportions."

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This is not even close to Plagueis' level.
Seriously? He did that to Republic forces; not some lame native species.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This is not close either.
So single-handedly defeating "armies of the Republic" is inferior showing to "slaughtering a force of considerably less capable of primitive fighters"? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I agree. Until you prove otherwise, the accolade on the backcover of Plagueis' book is canon and fact.
And he is not exclusive to this accolade. The fact that this accolade has been awarded to him on the backcover of the novel dedicated to him and not within the canonical story inside, indicates that it has more marketing appeal then actual credibility.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Point is, inferior duelists can force push superior duelists.
Yes, but performance varies and Darach's showing is much more impressive then that of Bulq's.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not to gain the advantage, but rather allowing him to escape . The actual duel was completely even.
This duel doesn't proves Dooku's "supposed" equivalency with Mace in martial abilities and power in the Force; Dooku was able to hold Mace for a short while but decided to disengage and escape ASAP. This is not the first time Dooku acted in this manner; whenever Dooku have fought against relatively superior opponents, he have chosen to fled. Fail.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I really don't care what you think. Sidious surpassed Plagueis as of TPM, deal with it.
Concrete evidence is lacking since the author himself pointed out that Plagueis would have beaten Sidious in a fair fight. Fail.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No, he's just moving his saber in a blur.
You cannot understand your own sources properly:

his green blade whirling with such speed that he seemed almost encased in green light.

The image that I posted depicts Tol Braga enased in red light of his blade.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Nothing you've posted confirms that Vitiate can use his mind-domination abilities without the advantages of preparation and focus; in fact, Drew thinks otherwise.
And how much time do you think Vitiate needs to unleash his mental powers? Does not takes even a second as revealed in SWTOR :Revan novel with the example of him giving a slight mental brush to Scourge.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Also, Scourge above Maul? Really?
Combat-prowess wise, YES. He becomes far more powerful as Emperor's Wrath, thanks to Sith Emperor's assistance.

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
Scourge was shot once and saved by his armor ( on two occasions ) Something that wouldn't happen to other Jedi at least not by one or two attackers.
Genius, many Jedi have fallen to assassination attempts and bounty hunters; even amazingly impressive ones.

Also, wearing combat armor is not a bad thing; it improves chances of survival.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
By the end of the Clone Wars, Grievous's skills had developed to such a degree that he was capable of taking on even (Jedi Master) Obi-Wan and kill him in single combat.
All things considered, Eeth Koth held him off with a wounded arm, Adi Gallia held him off too, Fisto put him on his ass, as did Ventress.

Filoni has gone on-record to say that ''it's not that good of a match'' when Jedi get him to one-on-one terms''. Point is, his high kill count doesn't show in his fights with Jedi who possess kill records of zero

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So he wouldn't be a pushover for Plagueis in martial aspects of combat at-least.
lol

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Against Emperor's Wrath, Plagueis's only chance is with his Force-mastery.
Considering how Plagueis hates lightsaber duels, I doubt he would even try to engage him with one.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
For example: Fisto lost not just to Sidious but also to Ventress.
You need only to read the actual text to know why he did:

The cavern was awash with whirling bodies. These were lackeys, and Ventress would sacrifice every one of them to learn what she wished to know. She knew the Jedi wouldn't just cut them down. She was watching, and studying, and saving the moment for herself. The Jedi's unarmed tactics would reveal their lightsaber technique: there was nothing they could do to prevent it.

-The Cestus Deception

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In contrast, Tinn and Kolar turned out be even worse then Fisto up against Sidious.
They weren't ''worse'' than Fisto by the account of getting slaughtered before him: he was killed after a few seconds with the help of Mace.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Heck, Opress relatively put up a better fight against Sidious then the aforementioned 3 Jedi Masters.
Sidious was toying with him.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Usma, at minimum, didn't turned out be a fodder for anybody; she lost only once as per available evidence but not without putting an epic fight. So a notch-up for Sith Lord Praven for being able to subdue her after a clash of "epic proportions" with her.
Fisto was only fodder for Sidious (as if Usma wouldn't be). As for Kolar, his only loss that I'm aware of was against Sidious; victories include a stomp of Quinlan Vos.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Well, such stamina is not exclusive to them. If you attempted to impress with this example, you failed in your task.
Cool.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Once again! This is your subjective opinion. By virtue of available evidence, the very first notable opponent that HoT subdued in single combat is seemingly stronger then Dooku. And HoT proceeded to accomplish lot more later on. HoT even struck down a Voice of the Emperor in a duel of "apocalyptic proportions."
I meant better showings than fighting Kursid warriors.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Seriously? He did that to Republic forces; not some lame native species.
A reputation that consists of killing republic forces is in the same league as Plagueis?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So single-handedly defeating "armies of the Republic" is inferior showing to "slaughtering a force of considerably less capable of primitive fighters"? roll eyes (sarcastic)

''Armies of the republic'' is what exactly?

Besides, fighting Kursid warriors is far from Plagueis' and Sidious' best showing.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And he is not exclusive to this accolade. The fact that this accolade has been awarded to him on the backcover of the novel dedicated to him and not within the canonical story inside, indicates that it has more marketing appeal then actual credibility.
Not really. The fact that the other version of the novel (hardback or paperback, don't remember) doesn't give him the accolade makes it clear it wasn't for marketing appeal.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, but performance varies and Darach's showing is much more impressive then that of Bulq's.
I wasn't trying to make Bulq's more impressive, just making a point that a force push isn't very uber unless it's very powerful.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This duel doesn't proves Dooku's "supposed" equivalency with Mace in martial abilities and power in the Force; Dooku was able to hold Mace for a short while but decided to disengage and escape ASAP.
It does, actually.

The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Concrete evidence is lacking since the author himself pointed out that Plagueis would have beaten Sidious in a fair fight. Fail.
The Encyclopedia is more canon than the authors comments. erm

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The image that I posted depicts Tol Braga enased in red light of his blade.
Not really. Anakin was practically covered in light: Braga moved his saber in a blur, ie the light behind the saber.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And how much time do you think Vitiate needs to unleash his mental powers? Does not takes even a second as revealed in SWTOR :Revan novel with the example of him giving a slight mental brush to Scourge.
He doesn't need much time if he already prepared himself, but in this time, he doesn't get time to prepare himself.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Combat-prowess wise, YES.
no

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
All things considered, Eeth Koth held him off with a wounded arm, Adi Gallia held him off too, Fisto put him on his ass, as did Ventress.

Filoni has gone on-record to say that ''it's not that good of a match'' when Jedi get him to one-on-one terms''. Point is, his high kill count doesn't show in his fights with Jedi who possess kill records of zero
You are also overlooking the fact that Grievous is unorthodox and dirty in his approach to combat situations. He attempted to win through unfair means as well and not necessarily in a straightforward manner. When he found himself on the receiving end, his reaction was to flee.

In contrast, Emperor's Wrath is a bold and straightforward warrior like Darth Malgus. The fact that he struck down many powerful opponents is testament to his great skill and power. I am excluding the possibility of Emperor's Wrath capable of playing dirty if the situation demanded such a course of action to get the job done but available evidence depicts him as a bold and straightforward warrior.

By virtue of available evidence, Emperor's Wrath >>> Grievous.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
lol

Considering how Plagueis hates lightsaber duels, I doubt he would even try to engage him with one.
Why does he hates lightsaber duels?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You need only to read the actual text to know why he did:

The cavern was awash with whirling bodies. These were lackeys, and Ventress would sacrifice every one of them to learn what she wished to know. She knew the Jedi wouldn't just cut them down. She was watching, and studying, and saving the moment for herself. The Jedi's unarmed tactics would reveal their lightsaber technique: there was nothing they could do to prevent it.

-The Cestus Deception
Ventress played smart; however, this doesn't discredits the my point that Fisto failed to overwhelm her and got his @ss handed to him in response. If Sidious was in Fisto's place, do you think that Ventress could have outdueled him? I don't think so, therefore, Fisto's failure is not excusable.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
They weren't ''worse'' than Fisto by the account of getting slaughtered before him: he was killed after a few seconds with the help of Mace.
Fisto managed to parry Sidious's initial blitz.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious was toying with him.
What?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Fisto was only fodder for Sidious (as if Usma wouldn't be). As for Kolar, his only loss that I'm aware of was against Sidious; victories include a stomp of Quinlan Vos.
So because Fisto turned out to be fodder for Sidious, then this means that Usma would also be? What kind of logic is this?

Kolar's fall certainly baffles me. Maybe Vos and Bulq aren't so great after all.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I meant better showings than fighting Kursid warriors.
Ok

Originally posted by Intrepid37
A reputation that consists of killing republic forces is in the same league as Plagueis?
Shattering the frontline of a Republic army doesn't sounds like big deal to you? Can you imagine taking on Republic forces like that?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
''Armies of the republic'' is what exactly?
What kind of a question is this?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Besides, fighting Kursid warriors is far from Plagueis' and Sidious' best showing.
Noted already

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not really. The fact that the other version of the novel (hardback or paperback, don't remember) doesn't give him the accolade makes it clear it wasn't for marketing appeal.
Such a statement occurring on the back-cover of a book and not within the actual story is representative of a marketing appeal.

Was it so difficult to declare him the most powerful Sith Lord ever within the story? No, but the author or publisher played smart.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I wasn't trying to make Bulq's more impressive, just making a point that a force push isn't very uber unless it's very powerful.
Well, Darach's telekinetic abilities are very good; his Force push was very powerful.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It does, actually.

The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.
You are comparing apples and oranges here. This source represents an assumption and not a concrete fact. When the two actually clashed, Dooku chose to flee like he normally did against other superior opponents.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The Encyclopedia is more canon than the authors comments. erm

Issue is with release dates here; Encyclopedia is much older source then the novel dedicated to Plagueis. The latest viewpoint is that Plagueis could defeat PT era Sidious in combat at least. However, this doesn't disqualifies the assertion of the Encyclopedia that Sidious relatively lacked in skill and/or strength but that Plagueis could be relatively smarter combatant or packed greater tolerance.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not really. Anakin was practically covered in light: Braga moved his saber in a blur, ie the light behind the saber.
That quote is obviously symbolic in its description of Anakin's blade-work. It depicts this:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/G/01/videogames/detail-page/B001BWRBB2.02.lg.jpg

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He doesn't need much time if he already prepared himself, but in this time, he doesn't get time to prepare himself.
Once again, how much time he needs to prepare to unleash his mental powers?

In the novel, his eyes flashed and his mental powers were already in the works.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
no
Debatable. As Emperor's Wrath, he is superior to Maul.

pencilcrayon

That doesn't look like he's covered in light at all. He's not even inside a sphere. That's just some horizontal swing.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
By virtue of available evidence, Emperor's Wrath >>> Grievous.
That's not the point, but rather that a high kill count won't save you.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Why does he hates lightsaber duels?
To Plagueis, lightsaber duels were tedious affairs, full of wasted emotion and needless acrobatics. Tenebrous, however, who had pronounced Plagueis a master of the art, had always enjoyed a good fight, and had clearly bequeathed that enthusiasm to his other trainee.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Ventress played smart; however, this doesn't discredits the my point that Fisto failed to overwhelm her and got his @ss handed to him in response. If Sidious was in Fisto's place, do you think that Ventress could have outdueled him? I don't think so, therefore, Fisto's failure is not excusable.
You're making it out as if losing to Ventress in a circumstancial fight takes away the accolade of being one of the Order's best, which it doesn't.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Fisto managed to parry Sidious's initial blitz.
Mace was helping.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What?
Sidious let Opress put up the fight he did.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So because Fisto turned out to be fodder for Sidious, then this means that Usma would also be? What kind of logic is this?
Can you prove otherwise?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Kolar's fall certainly baffles me. Maybe Vos and Bulq aren't so great after all.
They don't lack skill (maybe Vos does), just speed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Shattering the frontline of a Republic army doesn't sounds like big deal to you? Can you imagine taking on Republic forces like that?
Republic army of what? Jedi? Troopers?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What kind of a question is this?
Answer the question.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Such a statement occurring on the back-cover of a book and not within the actual story is representative of a marketing appeal.

Was it so difficult to declare him the most powerful Sith Lord ever within the story? No, but the author or publisher played smart.
Prove it's non-canon.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are comparing apples and oranges here. This source represents an assumption and not a concrete fact. When the two actually clashed, Dooku chose to flee like he normally did against other superior opponents.
Not really. Dooku only fled from Yoda twice, both times because he was clearly the inferior opponent. In this fight, the duel depicts no such thing. As I have said already, he fled because his plans had been realized by the Jedi.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Issue is with release dates here; Encyclopedia is much older source then the novel dedicated to Plagueis. The latest viewpoint is that Plagueis could defeat PT era Sidious in combat at least. However, this doesn't disqualifies the assertion of the Encyclopedia that Sidious relatively lacked in skill and/or strength but that Plagueis could be relatively smarter combatant or packed greater tolerance.
Luceno's novels are canon: his opinion and comments outside of it are not.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That quote is obviously symbolic in its description of Anakin's blade-work.
Prove it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Once again, how much time he needs to prepare to unleash his mental powers?
I don't know. But this is by all means a random fight/encounter. Odds are it takes longer for him to prepare than it takes for Anakin to cut him down.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Debatable. As Emperor's Wrath, he is superior to Maul.
There's another thread for this discussion.

Intrepid37

http://i41.tinypic.com/nx821z.jpg

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That's not the point, but rather that a high kill count won't save you.
Depends upon the characteristics of the individual in question. By virtue of available evidence, Emperor's Wrath outguns Grievous in all aspects of combat. He has killed many (powerful) adversaries and only HoT was able to outduel him in a span of several centuries. This is big.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
To Plagueis, lightsaber duels were tedious affairs, full of wasted emotion and needless acrobatics. Tenebrous, however, who had pronounced Plagueis a master of the art, had always enjoyed a good fight, and had clearly bequeathed that enthusiasm to his other trainee.
Interesting! This reinforces my POV that his supposed superiority over Emperor's Wrath is not certain.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You're making it out as if losing to Ventress in a circumstancial fight takes away the accolade of being one of the Order's best, which it doesn't.
On what basis is it a circumstantial fight? Was it a preplanned setup to trap Fisto or something? Did Ventress employed some kind of help to bring down Fisto?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Mace was helping.
I rechecked the fight depicted in the movie; you are correct.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious let Opress put up the fight he did.
Proof?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Can you prove otherwise?
I do not need to prove anything here because I have not made any assumption in this regard; do not know how Usma will perform against Sidious. However, to give you an idea of skill of Sith Lord Praven; he once cut down 3 opponents simultaneously with a single attack. He was also well-versed in the use of dark arts; capable of unleashing powerful bursts of Force Lightning, Force Blasts or lethal bursts of energies, Force Paralysis and others. The fight between Usma and Praven was of epic proportions.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
They don't lack skill (maybe Vos does), just speed.
Possible!

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Republic army of what? Jedi? Troopers?
This is not clear but dominating a Republic Army out in the open like that is impossible for majority of individuals in the mythos.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Answer the question.
Same as above. Not even Yoda have demonstrated this level of capability and/or skill.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove it's non-canon.
I am not sure about its canon validity but accolades are normally awarded to characters within the stories/literature and not on book covers. In addition, you mentioned that not every book of Plagueis have this statement written on its back-cover?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not really. Dooku only fled from Yoda twice, both times because he was clearly the inferior opponent. In this fight, the duel depicts no such thing. As I have said already, he fled because his plans had been realized by the Jedi.
1. The word "perhaps" indicates an assumption.
2. Dooku chose to flee from Mace.
3. Mace's showings are superior to that of Dooku.

Their is no need to rely on just one source to make a point. Focus on the holistic picture.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Luceno's novels are canon: his opinion and comments outside of it are not.
Nice! So I should discredit Drew's statements about Vitiate as well?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove it.
Anakin's spun his blade at such a speed that it gave the impression of him being encased in its light. I showed you a depiction of this kind of action. Use your brain now.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I don't know. But this is by all means a random fight/encounter. Odds are it takes longer for him to prepare than it takes for Anakin to cut him down.
You need to drop this BS then; Vitiate have never been blitzed by any opponent regardless of the opponent's capabilities. Even HoT was not able to blitz him and he is superior to Anakin in all aspects.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
http://i41.tinypic.com/nx821z.jpg
Well of-course, he learned so much about dark arts from his Sith Master and/or through other means that he felt that Plagueis was no longer important for his plans.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Depends upon the characteristics of the individual in question. By virtue of available evidence, Emperor's Wrath outguns Grievous in all aspects of combat. He has killed many (powerful) adversaries and only HoT was able to outduel him in a span of several centuries. This is big.
I'm not comparing him to Grievous: but how skilled were the Jedi and Sith that Scourge slew? How many at once? How long did it take him? Unless all three can be answered, it's not really important.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Interesting! This reinforces my POV that his supposed superiority over Emperor's Wrath is not certain.
Although Plagueis only has one feat with his saber, it's a good one. He killed Venamis who was using the exact same style as Plagueis and was basically trained to kill him. For Plagueis to defeat him is a good feat.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
On what basis is it a circumstantial fight? Was it a preplanned setup to trap Fisto or something? Did Ventress employed some kind of help to bring down Fisto?
She was watching them and learning their moves so she could counter them easier. The instant before they fought her, they had been fighting through an army of X'ting without their weapons, so they were pretty tired.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I rechecked the fight depicted in the movie; you are correct.
Good.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Proof?
Laughing, not igniting his saber at the start, reducing his speed so Opress could follow his movements etc

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I do not need to prove anything here because I have not made any assumption in this regard; do not know how Usma will perform against Sidious.
You tried to make a point of Usma not being fodder for anyone and that Fisto were: thing is, Usma has done nothing indicative of being able to do better than Fisto.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Possible!
Yep.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is not clear but dominating a Republic Army out in the open like that is impossible for majority of individuals in the mythos.
Do you have any information about the army? Size, individuals etc?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not sure about its canon validity but accolades are normally awarded to characters within the stories/literature and not on book covers.
In this case, it was.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In addition, you mentioned that not every book of Plagueis have this statement written on its back-cover?
The hardback has it, not the paper back, indicating that it wasn't written for marketing.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
1. The word "perhaps" indicates an assumption.
You're reading it wrong: it doesn't say ''perhaps'' as in ''perhaps Mace is an equal to Dooku'' it says ''perhaps'' as in ''perhaps only Mace is an equal to Dooku, but there may be others''.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
2. Dooku chose to flee from Mace.
Not because of inferiority.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
3. Mace's showings are superior to that of Dooku.
Outside a circumstancial victory over Sidious? No. Dooku eclipses him in everything.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nice! So I should discredit Drew's statements about Vitiate as well?
If you want to. Difference is, you have no canon source that contradict Drew's statement, but I do for Luceno's.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anakin's spun his blade at such a speed that it gave the impression of him being encased in its light. I showed you a depiction of this kind of action. Use your brain now.
The depiction wasn't replicating that.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You need to drop this BS then; Vitiate have never been blitzed by any opponent regardless of the opponent's capabilities.
He's never faced anyone as fast as Anakin, so yeah.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Even HoT was not able to blitz him and he is superior to Anakin in all aspects.
Prove it.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I'm not comparing him to Grievous: but how skilled were the Jedi and Sith that Scourge slew? How many at once? How long did it take him? Unless all three can be answered, it's not really important.
Some information:

As the feared "Emperor's Wrath", Scourge enforced his Master's will for more than three centuries. When a Jedi grew too powerful or a Sith too ambitious, Scourge eliminated the threat. (SWTORE, Page 94)

Scourge became more powerful and dangerous as Emperor's Wrath then he ever had been:

There was only on Scourge, his life prolonged by Sith alchemy, and his battle prowess enhanced by the Emperor. (SWTORE, Page 94)

His extreme kill record is indicative of his extraordinary skill and power that he gained while being the Emperor's Wrath. On top of this, he would have accumulated lot of experience since he has been through a lot. Heck, it is currently unclear how he can even be killed.

Scourge's much inferior incarnation has taken on multiple dangerous foes simultaneously and slaughtered them. The Emperor's Wrath incarnation would have done better.

Emperor's Wrath were supposed to be extraordinarily powerful and skilled because they had to enforce Vitiate's will whenever and where-ever necessary.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Although Plagueis only has one feat with his saber, it's a good one. He killed Venamis who was using the exact same style as Plagueis and was basically trained to kill him. For Plagueis to defeat him is a good feat.
Agreed! Though he is still disadvantaged against Emperor's Wrath on the basis of available information.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
She was watching them and learning their moves so she could counter them easier. The instant before they fought her, they had been fighting through an army of X'ting without their weapons, so they were pretty tired.
Now you finally have a point. Though I would appreciate if you would show me canon information about this event.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Laughing, not igniting his saber at the start, reducing his speed so Opress could follow his movements etc
Sidious laughed while fighting Yoda too. This is his style; he intimidates his opponent(s) in this manner. He gives his opponent(s) the impression that whatever he/she/they is/are doing is not enough. Good strategy.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You tried to make a point of Usma not being fodder for anyone and that Fisto were: thing is, Usma has done nothing indicative of being able to do better than Fisto.
As per canon information about her, she hasn't been fodder for anybody. To assume that she would be for Sidious is asinine. She is one of the most famous duelists of the Order and this leaves room for lot of potential for the authors to depict her as an amazing combatant. The Sith Lord who killed her was an exceptionally skilled and powerful individual but she wasn't a walk in the park for him.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Do you have any information about the army? Size, individuals etc?
Not yet, but the word "army" indicates that it was a big force.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
In this case, it was.
Well, time will tell that how he will be promoted in future sources. We will have to wait and see.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The hardback has it, not the paper back, indicating that it wasn't written for marketing.
Hardback is marketing component of a book.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You're reading it wrong: it doesn't say ''perhaps'' as in ''perhaps Mace is an equal to Dooku'' it says ''perhaps'' as in ''perhaps only Mace is an equal to Dooku, but there may be others''.
My focus is on Mace here and not on semantics. The quote which you offered proves nothing.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not because of inferiority.
Speculation

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Outside a circumstancial victory over Sidious? No. Dooku eclipses him in everything.
It isn't a circumstantial victory. Mace overwhelmed Sidious legitimately; he managed to disarm Sidious in contrast to others who failed in the same setting.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
If you want to. Difference is, you have no canon source that contradict Drew's statement, but I do for Luceno's.
You are not paying attention.

It didn't took him much time to mentally subdue Scourge; his eyes flashed and the deed was done.

In addition, an SWTOR codex entry reveals that he can break even the strongest of the Jedi with his mental powers.

It can be argued that Vitiate has element of surprise on his side; a new opponent have no clue that Vitiate can mentally mess him/her up. Therefore, any opponent he wishes to break, he succeeds in doing so during the confrontation.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The depiction wasn't replicating that.
What is it replicating in your opinion then?

The individual seems to be encased in the light of his blade when he swung it.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He's never faced anyone as fast as Anakin, so yeah.
roll eyes (sarcastic)

You have yet to prove that Anakin can blitz any opponent of note. The speed with which he can swing his lightsaber is irrelevant.

In contrast, HoT have actually blitzed highly skilled opponents and he have done so even when such opponents had element of surprise over him. Go figure.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove it.
You've got to be kidding me.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Some information:

As the feared "Emperor's Wrath", Scourge enforced his Master's will for more than three centuries. When a Jedi grew too powerful or a Sith too ambitious, Scourge eliminated the threat. (SWTORE, Page 94)

Scourge became more powerful and dangerous as Emperor's Wrath then he ever had been:

There was only on Scourge, his life prolonged by Sith alchemy, and his battle prowess enhanced by the Emperor. (SWTORE, Page 94)

His extreme kill record is indicative of his extraordinary skill and power that he gained while being the Emperor's Wrath. On top of this, he would have accumulated lot of experience since he has been through a lot. Heck, it is currently unclear how he can even be killed.

Scourge's much inferior incarnation has taken on multiple dangerous foes simultaneously and slaughtered them. The Emperor's Wrath incarnation would have done better.

Emperor's Wrath were supposed to be extraordinarily powerful and skilled because they had to enforce Vitiate's will whenever and where ever necessary.
''When a Jedi grew too powerful'' is amgibous: what does that mean? As powerful as who? How powerful?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Agreed! Though he is still disadvantaged against Emperor's Wrath on the basis of available
11-4D is fast enough to react instantaneous and dodge blaser bolts; only by adjusting the input rate of its its photoreceptors were it able to track Plagueis movements, and yet the droid only saw Plagueis as a blur.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Now you finally have a point. Though I would appreciate if you would show me canon information about this event.
The protocol droid barked an order, and all of Ventress's allies laid their weapons down.

"Surely they're not surrendering," Kit said.

Ventress laughed. "By no means. I told them they don't stand a chance against you with blasters."

"And ..."

"And now," she said, "defend yourselves, Jedi."

The young X'Ting thugs moved in. Obi-Wan groaned. He couldn't simply cut them down. Young and foolish, they believed they were acting for the good of the hive.

"I know what you're thinking," Ventress grinned. "You wish you could talk to them. A pity you don't speak X'Ting."

"Obi-Wan?" Kit asked.

"Well, we can't just slaughter them."

No.. ? Kit seemed to want to ask. "They're hardly innocent." The Nautolan radiated urgency, the pull of Form I strong as he prepared for battle. Ventress was the key. They had to stop her. And if these idiots put themselves between them and Dooku's minion, the woman who might be the salvation of millions, that was their misfortune.

But... it would be a massacre. Obi-Wan searched his conscience, and made a hard decision. "We must do this without our lightsabers."

Kit seemed to struggle with the idea, and then finally sighed. "A bit of exercise, then," he said, and reluctantly extinguished his blade.

Obi-Wan dampened his as well, and as if on cue, Ventress's foolish young X'Ting allies attacked from every angle. Obi-Wan leaned away from the swipe of a durasteel crowbar, the edge of his foot cracking the X'Ting's knee as he did. A second youth jumped on him from behind. Obi-Wan gripped a primary right hand, a secondary left hand, and torqued: The X'Ting corkscrewed through the air and shattered a pile of boxes.

Kit Fisto snarled, surrendering to the pull of Form I's unarmed techniques. His attack was absolute fluidity, one motion flowing into the next without a wasted effort. Heads cracked, limbs twisted against their joints, and X'Ting flipped howling into the lake.

Ventress stood back, her eyes watching, and Obi-Wan knew she was waiting, learning about her opponents.

The cavern was awash with whirling bodies. These were lackeys, and Ventress would sacrifice every one of them to learn what she wished to know. She knew the Jedi wouldn't just cut them down. She was watching, and studying, and saving the moment for herself. The Jedi's unarmed tactics would reveal their lightsaber technique: there was nothing they could do to prevent it.

Obi-Wan's opponents had enthusiasm, but little technique. The Force blossomed within him, and time perception distended, slowing reality to a crawl. He had all the time he needed to slide out of the way of the blows, retaliating with perfect economy.

From the corner of his eye he saw that Kit had made his way almost to Ventress, and what he saw as the Nautolan increased his efforts almost broke Obi-Wan's concentration. His companion was a living, martial hurricane, his body moving in two and three directions at once, joints flexing, unlimited by human vertebral restraints.

Who he touched went down. And those who went down, stayed down. Ventress might have gathered a rabble, but the youthful X'Ting were fearless, and fought as if for their lives.

Such an onslaught left no time for thought or planning, no room for pretty moves. There was only attack and defense, and precious little time for defense.

Obi-Wan himself could only attack and attack, taking the battle to them, creating his own timing and distancing, smashing his way toward Ventress.

Stingers bared, the young X'Ting came at them in waves. Obi-Wan calmed himself, using them as shields against each other, moving continuously and ferociously as he went.

Now ... a blow from the upper left quadrant. Obi-Wan was just a hair slow defending there, and a wicked knife slit his cloak. Again and again, he narrowly skirted disaster. She's watching? Obi-Wan thought. Let her.

Obi-Wan missed the moment, but Kit finally won his way through to Ventress. She raised her hand, and the X'Ting who had harried the Nautolan turned to attack Obi-Wan, leaving her to face Kit alone.

-The Cestus Deception

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He laughed while fighting Yoda too. This is his style; he intimidates his opponent(s) in this manner. He gives his opponent(s) the impression that whatever he/she/they is/are doing is not enough. Good strategy.
Actually, he only laughed at Yoda when he had a clear terrain advantage and threw pods at Yoda: in the actual duel, he was clearly struggling.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As per canon information about her, she hasn't been fodder for anyone. To assume that she would be for Sidious is asinine. She is one of the most famous duelists of the Order and this leaves room for lot of potential for the authors to depict her as an amazing combatant. The Sith Lord who killed her was an exceptionally skilled and powerful individual but she wasn't a walk in the park for him.
Being one of the Order's best duelist is as good if not better than being on of the most famous duelists of the Order.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Not yet, but the word "army" indicates that it was a big force.
Alright.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Well, time will tell that how he will promoted in future sources. We will have to wait and see.
The statement stands.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My focus is on Mace here and not on semantics. The quote which you offered proves nothing.
It confirms they're equals, actually: as shown in their duel on Boz Pity.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Speculation
Nope.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It isn't a circumstantial victory. Mace overwhelmed Sidious legitimately; he managed to disarm Sidious in contrast to others who failed in the same setting.
It was, but discussing this is tiresome.

He won through a shatterpoint: the shatterpoint was Anakin's fear.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, Mace have better feats then Dooku.
Such as?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are not paying attention.

It didn't took him much time to mentally subdue Scourge; his eyes flashed and the deed was done.

In addition, an SWTOR codex entry reveals that he can break even the strongest of the Jedi with this mental powers.
None of this is relevant to the discussion. Prove he can use his mental powers without the aid of preparation (which he doesn't get in this fight)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What is it replicating in your opinion then?
Having your whole body, perhaps except the head, covered in light.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
roll eyes (sarcastic)

You have yet to prove that Anakin can blitz any opponent of note. The speed with which he can swing his lightsaber is irrelevant.
I don't need to prove he can blitz him: you need to prove that Vitiate can unleash his powers before Anakin can cut him down.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
''When a Jedi grew too powerful'' is amgibous: what does that mean? As powerful as who? How powerful?
Powerful enough to be regarded as a threat to the interests of the Empire. The information at least confirms that these victims weren't mooks but rather powerful individuals.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
11-4D is fast enough to react instantaneous and dodge blaser bolts; only by adjusting the input rate of its its photoreceptors were it able to track Plagueis movements, and yet the droid only saw Plagueis as a blur.
Lord Scourge has been stated to have physically moved with "blinding" and "supernatural" speeds. He dodged automated firepower unleashed by a speeder during its flight with his physical abilities and brought it down with a single attack in response.

Scourge could also effortlessly switch between lightsaber dueling forms and even physically outpace a lightsaber swing itself:

He abruptly changed tactics, shifting from the conventional defensive positions of the Soresu form to the acrobatic attack sequences of Ataru. Taking two quick steps to gain speed, Scourge leapt at the nearby cavern wall, planted both feet on its vertical surface, then pushed off hard to launch himself in a spinning flip over the man's head.

His opponent tried to turn and pivot to keep Scourge in front of him, but the furious burst of action was too fast for his lightsaber to track. He was late bringing his blade up to protect his head, once again exposing himself to a lethal strike. (SWTOR: Revan)

Scourge's martial talents were amazing:

SCOURGE WAS AN EXPERT SWORDSMAN; at the Academy even the instructors had been reluctant to face him in the training ring. When the dark side flowed through him, his blade was more than a weapon. It became an extension of his will.

The blue highlighted part is very important; on the basis of this talent, Bane was able to hang with with relatively much superior duelist, Kas'im, in a duel.

Most importantly, Vitiate transformed Scourge in to an even more powerful and talented killing machine; an individual who slaughtered over a 1000 Jedi and Sith in total. Emperor's Wrath is a different ball game in comparison to SWTOR: Revan incarnation of Lord Scourge.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The protocol droid barked an order, and all of Ventress's allies laid their weapons down.

"Surely they're not surrendering," Kit said.

Ventress laughed. "By no means. I told them they don't stand a chance against you with blasters."

"And ..."

"And now," she said, "defend yourselves, Jedi."

The young X'Ting thugs moved in. Obi-Wan groaned. He couldn't simply cut them down. Young and foolish, they believed they were acting for the good of the hive.

"I know what you're thinking," Ventress grinned. "You wish you could talk to them. A pity you don't speak X'Ting."

"Obi-Wan?" Kit asked.

"Well, we can't just slaughter them."

No.. ? Kit seemed to want to ask. "They're hardly innocent." The Nautolan radiated urgency, the pull of Form I strong as he prepared for battle. Ventress was the key. They had to stop her. And if these idiots put themselves between them and Dooku's minion, the woman who might be the salvation of millions, that was their misfortune.

But... it would be a massacre. Obi-Wan searched his conscience, and made a hard decision. "We must do this without our lightsabers."

Kit seemed to struggle with the idea, and then finally sighed. "A bit of exercise, then," he said, and reluctantly extinguished his blade.

Obi-Wan dampened his as well, and as if on cue, Ventress's foolish young X'Ting allies attacked from every angle. Obi-Wan leaned away from the swipe of a durasteel crowbar, the edge of his foot cracking the X'Ting's knee as he did. A second youth jumped on him from behind. Obi-Wan gripped a primary right hand, a secondary left hand, and torqued: The X'Ting corkscrewed through the air and shattered a pile of boxes.

Kit Fisto snarled, surrendering to the pull of Form I's unarmed techniques. His attack was absolute fluidity, one motion flowing into the next without a wasted effort. Heads cracked, limbs twisted against their joints, and X'Ting flipped howling into the lake.

Ventress stood back, her eyes watching, and Obi-Wan knew she was waiting, learning about her opponents.

The cavern was awash with whirling bodies. These were lackeys, and Ventress would sacrifice every one of them to learn what she wished to know. She knew the Jedi wouldn't just cut them down. She was watching, and studying, and saving the moment for herself. The Jedi's unarmed tactics would reveal their lightsaber technique: there was nothing they could do to prevent it.

Obi-Wan's opponents had enthusiasm, but little technique. The Force blossomed within him, and time perception distended, slowing reality to a crawl. He had all the time he needed to slide out of the way of the blows, retaliating with perfect economy.

From the corner of his eye he saw that Kit had made his way almost to Ventress, and what he saw as the Nautolan increased his efforts almost broke Obi-Wan's concentration. His companion was a living, martial hurricane, his body moving in two and three directions at once, joints flexing, unlimited by human vertebral restraints.

Who he touched went down. And those who went down, stayed down. Ventress might have gathered a rabble, but the youthful X'Ting were fearless, and fought as if for their lives.

Such an onslaught left no time for thought or planning, no room for pretty moves. There was only attack and defense, and precious little time for defense.

Obi-Wan himself could only attack and attack, taking the battle to them, creating his own timing and distancing, smashing his way toward Ventress.

Stingers bared, the young X'Ting came at them in waves. Obi-Wan calmed himself, using them as shields against each other, moving continuously and ferociously as he went.

Now ... a blow from the upper left quadrant. Obi-Wan was just a hair slow defending there, and a wicked knife slit his cloak. Again and again, he narrowly skirted disaster. She's watching? Obi-Wan thought. Let her.

Obi-Wan missed the moment, but Kit finally won his way through to Ventress. She raised her hand, and the X'Ting who had harried the Nautolan turned to attack Obi-Wan, leaving her to face Kit alone.

-The Cestus Deception
Thanks for sharing. I didn't notice any signs of Jedi getting tired in this clash.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Actually, he only laughed at Yoda when he had a clear terrain advantage and threw pods at Yoda: in the actual duel, he was clearly struggling.
This suggests that he laughs when he knows that he has advantage. My extrapolation from this is that Opress wasn't capable of pushing Sidious to his limits with his martial skills so Sidious laughing at him in response shouldn't come as a surprise. In contrast Yoda managed to push Sidious to his limits with his martial skills and Sidious couldn't afford to laugh during such moments. However, Sidious's laughing behavior doesn't suggests that he would be toying with his opponents during such moments. He wasn't toying with Yoda when he was laughing at him; he was rather throwing senate pods towards Yoda during this moment.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Being one of the Order's best duelist is as good if not better than being on of the most famous duelists of the Order.
Accolades such as these offer an ambiguous picture.

Usma was not fodder for Sith Lord Praven who in turn was not fodder for HoT who in turn is not fodder for nobody in the entire Galactic history. Get the picture now?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The statement stands.
I will consult the author in this regard and let you know.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It confirms they're equals, actually: as shown in their duel on Boz Pity.
Dooku managed to duel Yoda longer then that. Does this means that he was Yoda's equal? Actions speak for themselves.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Nope.
Yes.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It was, but discussing this is tiresome.

He won through a shatterpoint: the shatterpoint was Anakin's fear.
As per novel. In the movie, the shatterpoint is an opening in Sidious's defenses which Mace exploited. This contradiction is the issue in this case but I would stick with G-Canon depiction of this duel.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Such as?
1. Being able to subdue Sidious (beyond Dooku's abilities)
2. His showings in the anime type CW source which you love to cite.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Powerful enough to be regarded as a threat to the interests of the Empire. The information at least confirms that these victims weren't mooks but rather powerful individuals.
Alright, but for all we know, they could've been Quinlan Vos-level.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He dodged automated firepower unleashed by a speeder during its flight with his physical abilities and brought it down with a single attack in response.
Cite the source.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Scourge could also effortlessly switch between lightsaber dueling forms
That's not unique. Plagueis displayed this in his duel with Venamis, as did Marek in his duel with Maris Brood.

and even physically outpace a lightsaber swing itself:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
His opponent tried to turn and pivot to keep Scourge in front of him, but the furious burst of action was too fast for his lightsaber to track. He was late bringing his blade up to protect his head, once again exposing himself to a lethal strike. (SWTOR: Revan)
He outpaced Xedrix. How fast is Xedrix?

Scourge's martial talents were amazing:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
SCOURGE WAS AN EXPERT SWORDSMAN; at the Academy even the instructors had been reluctant to face him in the training ring. When the dark side flowed through him, his blade was more than a weapon. It became an extension of his will.

The blue highlighted part is very important; on the basis of this talent, Bane was able to hang with with relatively much superior duelist, Kas'im, in a duel.
Bane's duel with Kas'im is a bad example. He was winning until Kas'im switched styles.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Thanks for sharing. I didn't notice any signs of Jedi getting tired in this clash.
Common sense.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This suggests that he laughs when he knows that he has advantage. My extrapolation from this is that Opress wasn't capable of pushing Sidious to his limits with his martial skills so Sidious laughing at him in response shouldn't come as a surprise. In contrast Yoda managed to push Sidious to his limits with his martial skills and Sidious couldn't afford to laugh during such moments. However, Sidious's laughing behavior doesn't suggests that he would be toying with his opponents during such moments. He wasn't toying with Yoda when he was laughing at him; he was rather throwing senate pods towards Yoda during this moment.
Sidious definitely ''toyed'' with Yoda when he threw Senate Pods at him.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Accolades such as these offer an ambiguous picture.

Usma was not fodder for Sith Lord Praven who in turn was not fodder for HoT who in turn is not fodder for nobody in the entire Galactic history. Get the picture now?
This is a bad A>B>C argument. Maul isn't fodder for Dooku who isn't fodder for Sidious, but Maul is clearly fodder for Sidious...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I will consult the author in this regard and let you know.
Until you've proven otherwise, it stands.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dooku managed to duel Yoda longer then that. Does this means that he was Yoda's equal? Actions speak for themselves.
In contrast, Dooku was forced on the defensive, indicating inferiority.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes.
Prove it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As per novel. In the movie, the shatterpoint is an opening in Sidious's defenses which Mace exploited. This contradiction is the issue in this case but I would stick with G-Canon depiction of this duel.
There's no contradiction..?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
His showings in the anime type CW source which you love to cite.
erm

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nowhere it is implied that he needs to prepare himself beforehand to break an opponent.
Revan and Scourge comes to mind.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Light of blade, right? Your description makes no sense at all.
Light of the blade, yes.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No one has been able to blitz Vitiate. Individuals better then Anakin couldn't either. Your assumption is baseless and pathetic. Drop it already. Anakin is outgunned badly.
Prove HoT is faster than Anakin.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Alright, but for all we know, they could've been Quinlan Vos-level.
Vos doesn't strikes me as "powerful" material.

Also, it is asinine to assume that all of the victims of Emperor's Wrath would be Vos's level.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Cite the source.
SWTOR: Revan

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He outpaced Xedrix. How fast is Xedrix?
They were Xedrix's apprentices. No idea how fast they were but outpacing a "lightsaber strike itself" is pretty damn amazing feat.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Bane's duel with Kas'im is a bad example. He was winning until Kas'im switched styles.
How so?

Kas'im lunged in again, and the room was filled with the hiss and hum of lightsabers striking each other half a dozen times in the space of two heartbeats. Bane would have been carved to ribbons had he tried to react to each move individually. Instead he simply called upon the Force, letting it flow through him and guide his hand. He gave himself over to the dark side completely, without reservation. His weapon became an extension of the Force, and he responded to the Twilek's unstoppable attack with an impenetrable defense. (Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)

Bane demonstrated this talent to survive and take charge:

When the dark side flowed through him, his blade was more than a weapon. It became an extension of his will. (SWTOR: Revan)

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Common sense.
Jedi can/do use the Force to augment their physical abilities. Those opponents didn't tire out Obi-Wan and Fisto or the fight with them didn't last long enough to tire them out otherwise the author would have given some hint.

If the Jedi were facing a challenging force then your assumption would have some merit but it doesn't fits well in this case.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious definitely ''toyed'' with Yoda when he threw Senate Pods at him.
I disagree! Sidious was trying to kill Yoda. Once again! His laughing behavior doesn't suggests that he is toying with his opponent(s) during such moments.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This is a bad A>B>C argument. Maul isn't fodder for Dooku who isn't fodder for Sidious, but Maul is clearly fodder for Sidious...
Maul wasn't fodder for Sidious; he didn't get blitzed by Sidious.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Until you've proven otherwise, it stands.
Plagueis is outclassed by several other Sith Lords, feats wise. Therefore, the accolade awarded to him gives hyperbolic vibe.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
In contrast, Dooku was forced on the defensive, indicating inferiority.

Prove it.

There's no contradiction..?

erm

Look! Unnecessarily dragging this debate isn't going to help you.

Anakin was the shatterpoint in the novel. In contrast, an opening in Sidious's defenses was the shatterpoint in the movie. Contradiction is clearly evident.

In addition, Dooku cannot outduel Sidious in any setting and is rather outclassed by the latter. By virtue of this evidence, Mace is superior to Dooku. The duel which you cited proves nothing since it didn't last long and Dooku chose to flee; what it indicates is that Dooku is not fodder for Mace. The quote which you cited represents an assumption; nothing concrete. I rest my case.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Revan and Scourge comes to mind.
Vitiate broke Revan with a fraction of his power. In addition, he didn't had to prepare himself to subdue Scourge mentally. You have no argument.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Light of the blade, yes.
And it cannot cover his entire body. Learn to differentiate between symbolism, hyperboles and actual depictions.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove HoT is faster than Anakin.
HoT is not yet featured in novels so I cannot offer any statement. However, HoT have actually blitzed skilled opponents. In comparison, Anakin haven't. By virtue of this evidence, HoT is faster then Anakin. I rest my case.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vos doesn't strikes me as "powerful" material.
Neither does whoever Scourge slew for me.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
SWTOR: Revan
Quote?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
They were Xedrix's apprentices. No idea how fast they were but outpacing a "lightsaber strike itself" is pretty damn amazing feat.
It's amazing if the ones wielding the saber were fast.

How so?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Kas'im lunged in again, and the room was filled with the hiss and hum of lightsabers striking each other half a dozen times in the space of two heartbeats. Bane would have been carved to ribbons had he tried to react to each move individually. Instead he simply called upon the Force, letting it flow through him and guide his hand. He gave himself over to the dark side completely, without reservation. His weapon became an extension of the Force, and he responded to the Twilek's unstoppable attack with an impenetrable defense. (Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)
Training session.

For that matter, according to a sourcebook, Maul served Sidious as an extension of Sidious' will...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Jedi can/do use the Force to augment their physical abilities. Those opponents didn't tire out Obi-Wan and Fisto or the fight with them didn't last long enough to tire them out otherwise the author would have given some hint.

If the Jedi were facing a challenging force then your assumption would have some merit but it doesn't fits well in this case.
Oh come on. It was clearly quite circumstancial that she had time to observe whatever forms Kit and Kenobi were using.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I disagree! Sidious was trying to kill Yoda. Once again! His laughing behavior doesn't suggests that he is toying with his opponent(s) during such moments.
It does. Compare his fight with the brothers to the one with Yoda and the one with the Council.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Maul wasn't fodder for Sidious; he didn't get blitzed by Sidious.
He wasn't fodder? He and his brother got completely ragdolled.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Plagueis is outclassed by several other Sith Lords, feats wise.
Such as?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anakin was the shatterpoint in the novel. In contrast, an opening in Sidious's defenses was the shatterpoint in the movie. Contradiction is clearly evident.
There's no contradiction. Mace angled the battle out to the window because he knew that Sidious would fall there, due to shatterpoint.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate broke Revan with a fraction of his power. In addition, he didn't had to prepare himself to subdue Scourge mentally. You have no argument.
I hold Drew's opinion in higher regard than yours.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And it cannot cover his entire body.
According to whom?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
HoT is not yet featured in novels so I cannot offer any statement. However, HoT have actually blitzed skilled opponents. In comparison, Anakin haven't. By virtue of this evidence, HoT is
faster then Anakin. I rest my case.
laughing out loud

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Neither does whoever Scourge slew for me.
Canonical quote confirms that many among his victims were "powerful."

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Quote?
Here;

He was still pondering this new information when he heard a speeder approaching through the storm. The sound was innocuous, but it instantly put his senses on high alert. His heart began beating rapidly and his breathing quickened. A rush of adrenaline caused his cheek tendrils to twitch and his muscles to tense.

He drew his lightsaber and glanced up at the sky. At his feet, Sechel cried out and covered his face, assuming the lightsaber was meant for him. Scourge ignored him.

In the darkness of the storm, he could just make out the speeder's silhouette heading straight for them. He reached out with the Force, probing the vehicle and its passengers. He felt a bolt of anger rip through him as his suspicions were confirmed: Whoever was in the speeder was coming to kill him.

All of this, from Scourge's first awareness of the speeder to confirmation of its hostile intent, took less than two seconds. Time enough for the speeder to close the distance and come bearing down on him. Scourge leapt to the side as a barrage of blasterfire was unleashed from the vehicle. He hit the ground in a roll that brought him to his feet just in time to spring clear of a second series of bolts. Moving with the blinding speed of the Force, he raced across the courtyard, bolts ricocheting off the ground just behind him every step of the way. He dived behind the cover of the Emperor's statue, his mind assessing the situation. The speeder had to be equipped with an autotargeting blaster cannon; there was no other way the shots could have tracked him so closely on his desperate run for cover. Even a Sith Lord couldn't evade that kind of firepower forever. He had to disable the vehicle.

The speeder was heading away from him, circling around for another strafing run. Before it could complete its turn, Scourge stepped out from behind the statue and launched his lightsaber across the courtyard. The crimson blade went spiraling through the night, tracing a wide, looping arc. It clipped the back end of the speeder, sending up a shower of spark and flame, and continued on its trajectory to return to Scourge's outstretched hand.

Source: SWTOR: Revan

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's amazing if the ones wielding the saber were fast.

How so?
Ever seen the speed with which a trained Sith can swing a lightsaber in visual? Physically outmaneuvering that kind of blow is damn impressive.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Training session.
What?

That is actual fight between Bane and Kas'im in the Rakatan Temple on Lehon. You are so much clueless.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
For that matter, according to a sourcebook, Maul served Sidious as an extension of Sidious' will...
Fail.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Oh come on. It was clearly quite circumstancial that she had time to observe whatever forms Kit and Kenobi were using.
Your argument is ok in this context but the fact remains that the Jedi weren't tired and Ventress outgunned Fisto after observing him in combat. If Fisto was so damn good as the hype he received, he should still have found a way to undermine or overcome Ventress but he failed. To be honest, Fisto doesn't impresses me.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It does. Compare his fight with the brothers to the one with Yoda and the one with the Council.
Of-course, Maul is not on the level of Mace and Yoda. However, he didn't go down so easily like his brother; he put up some fight.

By fodder, I personally assume an individual not capable of dueling someone. For example: Fisto, Tinn and Kolar were fodder for Sidious.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He wasn't fodder? He and his brother got completely ragdolled.
See above.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Such as?
- Sidious
- Vitiate
- Nihilus
- Traya
- Decimus
- Nox
- Marr
- Hord
- Jadus

Originally posted by Intrepid37
There's no contradiction. Mace angled the battle out to the window because he knew that Sidious would fall there, due to shatterpoint.
Contradiction is that novel suggests that Anakin was watching the duel and Mace used him as a shatterpoint source. This wasn't the case in the movie. Yes, Mace did force Sidious in to a position which made him vulnerable on the basis of his shatterpoint abilities.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I hold Drew's opinion in higher regard than yours.
Those are canonical revelations; not my opinion. Fail.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
According to whom?
Is his lightsaber as long as he is himself?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
laughing out loud

Concession accepted.

Intrepid37

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Canonical quote confirms that many among his victims were "powerful."
Let's be honest: being ''powerful'' isn't as good as being one of the Order's finest swordsmen.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Here;

He was still pondering this new information when he heard a speeder approaching through the storm. The sound was innocuous, but it instantly put his senses on high alert. His heart began beating rapidly and his breathing quickened. A rush of adrenaline caused his cheek tendrils to twitch and his muscles to tense.

He drew his lightsaber and glanced up at the sky. At his feet, Sechel cried out and covered his face, assuming the lightsaber was meant for him. Scourge ignored him.

In the darkness of the storm, he could just make out the speeder's silhouette heading straight for them. He reached out with the Force, probing the vehicle and its passengers. He felt a bolt of anger rip through him as his suspicions were confirmed: Whoever was in the speeder was coming to kill him.

All of this, from Scourge's first awareness of the speeder to confirmation of its hostile intent, took less than two seconds. Time enough for the speeder to close the distance and come bearing down on him. Scourge leapt to the side as a barrage of blasterfire was unleashed from the vehicle. He hit the ground in a roll that brought him to his feet just in time to spring clear of a second series of bolts. Moving with the blinding speed of the Force, he raced across the courtyard, bolts ricocheting off the ground just behind him every step of the way. He dived behind the cover of the Emperor's statue, his mind assessing the situation. The speeder had to be equipped with an autotargeting blaster cannon; there was no other way the shots could have tracked him so closely on his desperate run for cover. Even a Sith Lord couldn't evade that kind of firepower forever. He had to disable the vehicle.

The speeder was heading away from him, circling around for another strafing run. Before it could complete its turn, Scourge stepped out from behind the statue and launched his lightsaber across the courtyard. The crimson blade went spiraling through the night, tracing a wide, looping arc. It clipped the back end of the speeder, sending up a shower of spark and flame, and continued on its trajectory to return to Scourge's outstretched hand.

Source: SWTOR: Revan
Alright, so he moved with blinding speed. As did Kar Vastor, and Mace were able to hit him six times before he could focus his eyes: in contrast, Plagueis has better speed feats than Mace.

See where this is going?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Ever seen the speed with which a trained Sith can swing a lightsaber in visual? Physically outmaneuvering that kind of blow is damn impressive.
Yeah, but if the ones wielding the sabers were slow, it's not really that good.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What?

That is actual fight between Bane and Kas'im in the Rakatan Temple on Lehon. You are so much clueless.
Point conceded.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Fail.
What?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If Fisto was so damn good as the hype he received, he should still have found a way to undermine or overcome Ventress but he failed.
Why? Ventress is very skilled too. Besides, without the aid of any circumstances, Fisto and Ventress are definitely comparable.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
To be honest, Fisto doesn't impresses me.
I could post a good showing of his from Labyrinth of Evil, if you want to.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Of-course, Maul is not on the level of Mace and Yoda. However, he didn't go down so easily like his brother; he put up some fight.

By fodder, I personally assume an individual not capable of dueling someone. For example: Fisto, Tinn and Kolar were fodder for Sidious.
The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me.

Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow. I smell heat and smoke. The laser traces the outline of my body, my face, my hands. The buzz is loud in my ear. One flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle, and I am dead.

I do not flinch.

At last, Lord Sidious deactivates my weapon. He tosses it toward me. The sweat on my palm almost causes me to drop it.

"Do not let me see you relax your guard again, " my Master says. His eyes burn. "You are valuable, yes. But you are not indispensable, Lord Maul. I can do without you."

A flick of his robe, and he is gone.The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me.

Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow. I smell heat and smoke. The laser traces the outline of my body, my face, my hands. The buzz is loud in my ear. One flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle, and I am dead.

I do not flinch.

At last, Lord Sidious deactivates my weapon. He tosses it toward me. The sweat on my palm almost causes me to drop it.

"Do not let me see you relax your guard again, " my Master says. His eyes burn. "You are valuable, yes. But you are not indispensable, Lord Maul. I can do without you."

A flick of his robe, and he is gone.

Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

He did not take it well. He raised a hand, and the dark side grabbed me by the throat and lifted me high. My breath was squeezed out of me slowly. Too slowly. I had time to feel every stretched-out moment of panic as I struggled to force even the tiniest trickle of air into my lungs.

When I was close to passing out, I was dropped to the floor in a heap. My Master walked away. He did not address me or call for me for some time. The removal of his favor was worse than the punishment.

-Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
See above.

- Sidious
- Vitiate
- Nihilus
- Traya
- Decimus
- Nox
- Marr
- Hord
- Jadus
Sidious, yes. Combat-wise, Plagueis outstrips everyone else.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Contradiction is that novel suggests that Anakin was watching the duel and Mace used him as a shatterpoint source.
There's no contradiction... as soon as Anakin lands outside the office, Mace feels a shatterpoint which led to a win.

Those are canonical revelations; not my opinion. Fail.
None of these ''revelations'' prove Vitiate can use his mind-domination abilities without the aid of preparation.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Is his lightsaber as long as he is himself?
No?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Concession accepted.
Prove the instance in which HoT blitzed his enemy.

Nephthys

The HoT blitzed two Sith Assassin's on Corellia, fully leaping over them and cutting them down before they really had time to react (and they knew he was there). These weren't fodder Sith either, they'd just defeated Jedi Master Kiwiks.

The HoT then repeats this later on on the same planet, cutting down two Sith Warriors with a single slash each. Both had their lightsabers drawn, in front of them and were moving to attack the HoT. He appears to have simply moved faster then they could defend against.

AM0BT5wcpQE

9.00 and 18.45

Intrepid37

Thanks for that. Still don't see him close to Anakin:

He practically encases himself in green light:

"I'm a slow learner," Anakin replied coolly, and he came on then, so suddenly, so powerfully, his green blade whirling with such speed that he seemed almost encased in green light.

He moves his blade in a blur:

Anakin was off and running, off and leaping, his blade spinning left and right in a blur, every stab taking a Tusken down, writhing to the ground, every slash putting a piece of a Tusken on the ground.

He moves in a blur:

Right behind her came Anakin, his lightsaber a blur of motion, turning laser shots back at the battle droids. He leapt into the cart and Padme kicked the orray away.

Anakin's blade is described as blue lightning:

-And in the space where Kenobi's chest had been was now only the blue lightning of Skywalker's blade driving straight for Dooku's heart.

The quote below implies Anakin was faster than Dooku (and he leaves a haze of afterimages at the same time):

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze...

Dooku has some nice speed feats himself.

He's able to react before the pieces of the droids hit the floor:

Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half...

He moves impossibly fast:

But Dooku retracted impossibly fast, and Anakin's down-cutting green blade hit nothing but air.

-Attack of the Clones

He is faster than Kenobi:

The two droids fired at Obi-Wan, but he batted their fired energy bolts back at them and cut them down as he moved fast for Dooku. Unfortunately, Dooku moved faster, extending his left hand toward Obi-Wan as he used the Force to lift the Jedi off his feet while at the same time constricting his throat.

Kenobi is quite fast himself. He moves as a torpedo:

...and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker...

Kenobi moves in a blur:

And in that instant, Obi-Wan disappeared in a blur, headed for Cohls pod.

He moves in a blur again:

In a blur of motion, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan hurried to Tiin's aid, spinning and leaping in the face of the onslaught.

He moves his blade so fast it creates a barrier/shield:

Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Tiin, and Ki-Adi-Mundi surged from the pyramid entrance, engaging the terrorists that had driven them back. A quarter of the way across the immense plaza, the Jedi spread out in a wedge formation, their constantly moving blades fending off blaster bolts loosed from ahead and to either side. Behind the energy barrier fashioned by the lightsabers, Yaddle, Depa, Vergere, and two of the judicials raced out to divert fire from the rear.

He moves in a blur again:

In a blur of motion, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan bolted to the end of the flat roof, wound between several domes, and covered a length of sheer ledge without a moment's hesitation.

Anakin is the fastest Jedi of his generation, perhaps any:

This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

This alone puts him above all Jedi bar Yoda in terms of speed.

He's faster than Mace who is so fast that he appeared to wield dozens of lightsabers:

Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.

Mace is faster than Kar Vastor (who is blindingly fast) and moves invisibly fast:

But where Vastor's speed was blinding, Mace's was invisible. Not one of those slaps connected.

Despite Vastor being blindingly fast, Mace hits him six times before he can blink/focus his eyes:

Before Vastor could even focus his eyes, Mace had hit him six times: two thundering hooks to his short ribs, a knee slamming hard into the same thigh he'd hit before, an elbow snapping up to the point of his chin, and two devastating palm strikes to either hinge of his jaw.

An ordinary man would have been unconscious. Vastor seemed to be getting stronger.

Vastor fired another of those blinding slaps. This time, instead of ducking, Mace countered with a whirring hook that met the lor peleKs swinging arm directly on the nerve that ran up the inside of the biceps. Vastor threw the other even harder-which only made the inside of that arm connect that much harder with Mace's coun-terhook.

Vastor's mighty arms spasmed and dropped limply to his sides. "This is called Vaapad, Kar." A fierce light burned in Mace's eyes. "How many arms do you see?"

Then he hit Vastor twice in the nose before the lor pelek could even blink.

Anakin is also faster than Kit Fisto. Fisto has moved his body in three directions at once:

From the corner of his eye he saw that Kit had made his way almost to Ventress, and what he saw as the Nautolan increased his efforts almost broke Obi-Wan's concentration. His companion was a living, martial hurricane, his body moving in two and three
directions at once, joints flexing, unlimited by human vertebral restraints.

Fisto moves in a blur of light/impossibly fast:

"Your pleasure," Kit hissed, and went at her. He was like fire, Ventress like smoke. The dance had substance but not form, a blur of light that seemed impossibly fast, unbelievably deadly. The two leapt and swerved, collided and bounced away. Single against double light-blades. Hands, knees, feet, all in a mind-numbing blur.

The speed of Fisto's blade is described as a blazing cyclone of light:

To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Let's be honest: being ''powerful'' isn't as good as being one of the Order's finest swordsmen.
Big misconception! An individual should possess decent command in the Force because his/her martial skills alone are not going to be enough sometimes. Decent Force-Mastery complements martial skills and abilities of a Force-user. Look no further then Bane versus Kas'im event to understand this.

Kolar, Tinn, and Fisto didn't lack in martial aspects of combat; they lacked in command of the Force aspect and this is why they got their @sses handed to them by Sidious in such a brilliant manner. In contrast to the 3 aforementioned Jedi, Mace was much more well-versed in the Jedi arts and his performance proved this.

A Jedi becomes powerful when he accomplishes decent command of the Force or high level Force-Mastery.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Alright, so he moved with blinding speed. As did Kar Vastor, and Mace were able to hit him six times before he could focus his eyes: in contrast, Plagueis has better speed feats than Mace.

See where this is going?
Speed feats alone would never give you full picture of how an individual would perform against another. This the ambiguity that we have to deal with in these debates. If speed feats were to be solely considered, we would have never suspected that Sidious would have blitzed Tinn in combat; we found this out when these two actually met in combat.

Fact is that Scourge moved so fast that the auto-blaster, regardless of being programmed to be a highly accurate and deadly weapon, didn't manage to hit him. So Scourge would have been like a blur to this weapon's tracking system. Now difference is that we do not have much information about this weapon's tracking system but it is supposed to be great because it was mentioned in the novel that a Sith Lord would not have been able to dodge its firepower forever.

In addition, Scourge's skills can be gauged through lot of other information. I am sure that Kar Vastor doesn't matches his resume. Therefore, your point is moot.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Yeah, but if the ones wielding the sabers were slow, it's not really that good.
Why would a trained Sith be slow at swinging the blade?

The acolytes shown in the Hope Cinematic Video were demonstrating impressive bladework as an example; they were twirling the lightsaber very fast.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What?
What does Maul serving Sidious's will have to do with my point regarding one being able to transform his weapon in to an extension of his will during combat?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Why? Ventress is very skilled too. Besides, without the aid of any circumstances, Fisto and Ventress are definitely comparable.
Maybe! However, Fisto is a Master of Form I which makes him very effective against multiple foes but not necessarily against a single skilled foe.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I could post a good showing of his from Labyrinth of Evil, if you want to.
No need! I know that he has decent martial skills.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me.

Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow. I smell heat and smoke. The laser traces the outline of my body, my face, my hands. The buzz is loud in my ear. One flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle, and I am dead.

I do not flinch.

At last, Lord Sidious deactivates my weapon. He tosses it toward me. The sweat on my palm almost causes me to drop it.

"Do not let me see you relax your guard again, " my Master says. His eyes burn. "You are valuable, yes. But you are not indispensable, Lord Maul. I can do without you."

A flick of his robe, and he is gone.The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me.

Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow. I smell heat and smoke. The laser traces the outline of my body, my face, my hands. The buzz is loud in my ear. One flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle, and I am dead.

I do not flinch.

At last, Lord Sidious deactivates my weapon. He tosses it toward me. The sweat on my palm almost causes me to drop it.

"Do not let me see you relax your guard again, " my Master says. His eyes burn. "You are valuable, yes. But you are not indispensable, Lord Maul. I can do without you."

A flick of his robe, and he is gone.

Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

He did not take it well. He raised a hand, and the dark side grabbed me by the throat and lifted me high. My breath was squeezed out of me slowly. Too slowly. I had time to feel every stretched-out moment of panic as I struggled to force even the tiniest trickle of air into my lungs.

When I was close to passing out, I was dropped to the floor in a heap. My Master walked away. He did not address me or call for me for some time. The removal of his favor was worse than the punishment.

-Episode I Journal: Darth Maul
Once again! Am I missing something that you are offering me this information?

I am talking about actual fight between brothers: Maul and Opress against Sidious in which both parties attempted to kill each other.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious, yes. Combat-wise, Plagueis outstrips everyone else.
You are sadly mistaken.

- Vitiate have taken on multiple exceptionally powerful opponents simultaneously and defeated them. He have done so several times. His defeat in single combat is circumstantial.

- Nihilus eliminated many powerful Sith Lords on Katarr with his incredible powers. His defeat in single combat is circumstantial.

- Traya easily destroyed 3 famous Jedi Masters with her dark side powers on Dantooine. She has been canonically confirmed to be more powerful then Meetra Surik; it is not clear if her defeat in single combat is circumstantial or not.

- Decimus have played a vital role in destruction of a Republic army.

- Marr single-handedly destroyed a Republic army or possibly armies.

- Nox subdued Thanaton in single combat; a Sith Lord touted to be supremely strong in the dark side of the Force. Nox is like a supernatural being with extraordinary talents; he is virtually unstoppable.

- Hord is arguably the greatest and most famous lightsaber duelist among the Sith in the Star Wars and his power in the Force is such that his greatest known feat outstrips the greatest showing of Yoda with the Force.

- Jadus; while not much is known about his combat prowess but Imperial Intelligence rates him second to none but Sith Emperor in power and depending upon the storyline, he managed to prevent disintegration of his enormous Imperial Cruiser out in the space with his power in the Force when attempts were made to destroy it.

While Plagueis's showings against Maladians are impressive; he doesn't looks big in the big picture.

Your attempts to hype PT era characters are lame. Give up for your own good.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
There's no contradiction... as soon as Anakin lands outside the office, Mace feels a shatterpoint which led to a win.
Anakin wasn't watching them dueling in the movie or was he? His timing of approach had nothing to do with Mace managing to disarm Sidious with his shatterpoint abilities. It was a coincidence. The novelization presented somewhat different account from the movie.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
None of these ''revelations'' prove Vitiate can use his mind-domination abilities without the aid of preparation.
This is your assumption because this haven't been explicitly stated in any source barring Revan's POV which gives this impression. Sorry.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No?
So how can his whole body be covered in its light when he swirled it? You are focusing too much on hyperbolic semantics; the visual example that I offered is the only valid depiction of Anakin's feat as per the available description.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove the instance in which HoT blitzed his enemy.
Neph did this and hopefully it will shut you out for good.

Thank you, Neph.