DBZ Base Goku vs. Cooler

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vansonbee
This is the movie Cooler where he first appear on Earth in his final form.

I recall the fight in the movie was in Goku favor when he transformed in ss1, but his base at that time took a hard beating.

Q99
Well, base Goku from the same time, of course, also loses.


Cell Saga base Goku likely does a bit better, but ditto, lose.

Really, it's hard to tell when base form surpasses Cooler level.

Based
I'm not getting this. Vegeta and Goku have a hard time in SSJ but we're using their base now?

Regardless based on the new movie there's a line implying the base Saiyans are weaker than Freeza. Regardless of how you want to take form it, during this time base Goku gets massively raped. I mean it's right in the movie...

Nevan
Originally posted by Based
I'm not getting this. Vegeta and Goku have a hard time in SSJ but we're using their base now?

Regardless based on the new movie there's a line implying the base Saiyans are weaker than Freeza. Regardless of how you want to take form it, during this time base Goku gets massively raped. I mean it's right in the movie...
Goku was not powered up when Bills said that

Supra
Why use base Goku when cooler is not at base?

juggerman
Goku via Spirit Bomb pulled out of his anus

Galan007
If this is base Goku during the Cell Games and/or Buu saga, then my money is on him.

Even as a n00b SSJ(he couldn't even transform at will yet), Goku effortlessly tooled final form Cooler. By the time of the Cell Games and/or Buu saga, I would definitely put base Goku against a n00b SSJ, given how astronomically his power had increased across the board by then. In fact, given the enormous difference that existed between a n00b SSJ and Cooler, Goku wouldn't even have to be as powerful as the former to still have a decisive edge against the latter. Just my opinion.

BloodRain
That would be correct from what we know, unless what Based said about the the line in BoG is true.

Galan007
^ Unless a huge portion of the Saiyans' histories have been retconned, that cannot possibly be right. Goku was able to match final form Frieza(@ 50% power) as a base Saiyan. Assuming that his base form hadn't become at least 2x more powerful by the time of the Cell Games makes absolutely no logical sense. He went from being considerably less powerful than Imperfect Cell at the beginning of the saga, to being nearly on par with Perfect Cell during the Cell Games-- his power level increased several times over during that saga alone; nevermind the Buu saga when he'd literally spent years training in Otherworld.

Perhaps Bills didn't *think* a base Saiyan could attain power of that order? Either way, Goku, Vegeta and their kin are clearly the exception to this 'rule'.

BloodRain
Guess it depends if he meant Goku or the species he knew about.. I find it surprising that no ones seen the movie yet.

Based
Originally posted by Galan007
^ Unless a huge portion of the Saiyans' histories have been retconned, that cannot possibly be right. Goku was able to match final form Frieza(@ 50% power) as a base Saiyan. Assuming that his base form hadn't become at least 2x more powerful by the time of the Cell Games makes absolutely no logical sense. He went from being considerably less powerful than Imperfect Cell at the beginning of the saga, to being nearly on par with Perfect Cell during the Cell Games-- his power level increased several times over during that saga alone; nevermind the Buu saga when he'd literally spent years training in Otherworld.

Perhaps Bills didn't *think* a base Saiyan could attain power of that order? Either way, Goku, Vegeta and their kin are clearly the exception to this 'rule'.

Yes this quote would ultimately retcon popular train of thought. Whatever the case is the large amount of your argument is, well, invalid. Goku did not match 50 percent Freeza. One, Freeza was toying with Goku at 50 percent. Two, Goku used kaioken. At that point his base was boosted up to 10 times. Then when Freeza went into 50 percent full power, Goku desperately went into 20x kaioken which also did little.

The Freeza saga's power level chart is pretty much set in stone. What gets out of whack is right after the hyperbolic time chamber training.

Back to the OP, in my previous post was I was completely mistaken. I thought we were using the 2nd Cooler movie. But the end result is the same this fight makes little sense.

Galan007
Originally posted by Based
Yes this quote would ultimately retcon popular train of thought. Whatever the case is the large amount of your argument is, well, invalid. Goku did not match 50 percent Freeza. One, Freeza was toying with Goku at 50 percent. Two, Goku used kaioken. At that point his base was boosted up to 10 times. Kaioken is part of base Goku's skillset-- it is no different than a kamehameha in that regard.

Do you believe that in this battle Goku should be forbidden from using a technique that he frequently utilized throughout the series(including his fight with Cooler)? To me, that is an utterly ridiculous presumption. If base Goku cannot use kaioken, then he shouldn't be able to use any other ability in his arsenal(kamehamehas notwithstanding.) We cannot fallaciously pick and choose which abilities are neutered and which are not. :/

Originally posted by Based
Then when Freeza went into 50 percent full power, Goku desperately went into 20x kaioken which also did little.Frieza himself said that Goku's 20x kaioken+kamehameha nearly killed him:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15952261/db27_011.gif.html

So it obviously caused more than just "a little" damage.

Originally posted by Based
The Freeza saga's power level chart is pretty much set in stone. What gets out of whack is right after the hyperbolic time chamber training. We know that Goku was undoubtedly inferior to 1st stage Cell before the time chamber. We know he was nearly on par with Perfect Cell after the time chamber. Any way you cut it, his power increased several times over from that training session. Am I to believe that the PL of his base form remained stagnant for some inextricable reason, and received no benefit from said training? No. It doesn't work that way.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Galan007
Kaioken is part of base Goku's skillset-- it is no different than a kamehameha in that regard.

Do you believe that in this battle Goku should be forbidden from using a technique that he frequently utilized throughout the series(including his fight with Cooler)? To me, that is an utterly ridiculous presumption. If base Goku cannot use kaioken, then he shouldn't be able to use any other ability in his arsenal(kamehamehas notwithstanding.) We cannot fallaciously pick and choose which abilities are neutered and which are not. :/

Frieza himself said that Goku's 20x kaioken+kamehameha nearly killed him:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/15952261/db27_011.gif.html

So it obviously caused more than just "a little" damage.

We know that Goku was undoubtedly inferior to 1st stage Cell before the time chamber. We know he was nearly on par with Perfect Cell after the time chamber. Any way you cut it, his power increased several times over from that training session. Am I to believe that the PL of his base form remained stagnant for some inextricable reason, and received no benefit from said training? No. It doesn't work that way.


I agree and you beat me to the scan.

Goku's base form power did increase several times when he trained for several months in the HBTC. It had to because his SSJ form increased in power by several times.


Let's just pretend for a second:


Pretend Goku's base form has a power level of 100 before the HBTC training.

SSJ offers a 50X power boost.

That's a PL of 5000.

We do not know exactly how much Goku's power increased by we know Cell's power increased many times until he reached Perfect Cell form. Let's just throw this out there and say it was 10x stronger.

Powered up base Cell would then have to have a PL greater than 5000 in order to exceed Goku in SSJ form.

Bear with me, here...almost there...


So, using my same pretend numbers, 10*5000=50,000.

So Perfect Cell would be at a PL of 50,000.

Goku would then have needed to increase his base form's PL to get close to that PL.

How much so?


x*50 = 50,000

x=1000



Seems obvious, now, doesn't it? He would need to increase his base power level by 10x in order to keep up with Cell. Well, we know he didn't quite reach that point because Perfect Cell was still stronger.


But, his base PL, in my pretend scenario, increased by 10x. These numbers become MUCH more pronounced when we deal with their actual Power Levels because they are likely in the billions.


So, no, there is no way Cooler could deal with the final base form of Goku from DBZ because he had trained a long time in Otherworld and before the tournie where he fought against Uub. His base form will have increased many many times over. I am guessing hundreds to thousands of times over.

Galan007
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lu27a0fOSf1qzgpx9.gif

Merlyn
@ dadudemon and Galan007:

How powerful would base Goku have to become in order to defeat final form Cooler then?

Galan007
Originally posted by Merlyn
@ dadudemon and Galan007:

How powerful would base Goku have to become in order to defeat final form Cooler then? I hinted at the answer to this question in my above posts hoping to avoid typing a breathy mega-post, but what the hell...

Frieza's PL @ 100%=120,000,000
Frieza's PL @ 50%=60,000,000

Therefore, the PL of Goku's 20x kaioken would have been right around the 60,000,000 mark as well(arguably a little greater, given that he nearly killed Frieza with a kamehameha.) Subsequently, this puts Goku's base PL w/o the kaioken powerup at 3,000,000(60,000,000/20=3,000,000.)

Using the above 'formula', you'll find that Goku would have needed to have a base PL of just over 6,000,000 to defeat a fully powered Frieza with the same amp(6,000,000*20=120,000,000.)

That said, we know final form Cooler was certainly intended to be more powerful than Frieza, but we don't know what his exact PL was. However, given that Goku was able to effortlessly trounce him as a n00b SSJ, I can't imagine Cooler's PL being massively beyond Frieza's. However, even if we assume his PL was 200,000,000, then Goku's base PL would only need to be just over a measly 10,000,000 to defeat him with a 20x kaioken amp(10,000,000*20=200,000,000.)

And as DDM said, a base PL of 10,000,000 during the Cell Games(and especially the Buu saga) certainly wouldn't be out of the question, given that Goku's PL as an ASSJ logically in the billionS.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Galan007
And as DDM said, a base PL of 10,000,000 during the Cell Games(and especially the Buu saga) certainly wouldn't be out of the question, given that Goku's PL as an ASSJ logically in the billionS.

Yup. thumb up

vansonbee
So from my understanding. Goku base can never reach Cooler 200,000,000 power level without the uses of skill sets or turning SS1.

Anyone can discuss about kaioken a bit? That manga panel of Goku using it against Frieza was great scene. However it look like Goku took the full grunt than Freiza there. So my question is, kaioken pro and cons?

Galan007
Originally posted by vansonbee
So from my understanding. Goku base can never reach Cooler 200,000,000 power level without the uses of skill sets or turning SS1. Understand that me putting Cooler's PL at 200,000,000 was an extremely high over-approximation(I even said as much.) In the anime/manga, Goku's PL as a n00b SSJ was 150,000,000-- so if we assume his n00b SSJ form in Movie #5 was equal to his n00b SSJ form in the Freiza saga(which is an absolutely logical presumption), then it means Cooler's PL would have been below 150,000,000, given that n00b SSJ Goku tooled him with sheer ease.

130-140 million sounds a bit more accurate for Cooler. More powerful than Frieza, but less powerful than SSJ Goku.

Based
Originally posted by Galan007
Kaioken is part of base Goku's skillset-- it is no different than a kamehameha in that regard.
Okay, it's still an amplifier and it's not his base form. He was powered 20 times his actual base. His base alone is pitiful compared to Freeza.



What the fvck is this? The OP said base Goku. Therefore that means no amplifiers. In a real situation ofc Goku would use kaioken but the OP said base. C'mon.



And what damage do you see? A burnt hand? The page right before this has Goku exclaiming about the little damage he sent to Freeza.



Again, the hell? I mean that's picking a straw right there, I've never once said Goku's base remained stagnant. And I mean did you read that story arc? The whole purpose of the ROSAT was to transcend the Super Saiyan. Both Vegeta and Goku came to the conclusion that to fight the Androids and Cell they needed to improve the Super Saiyan. They both did it in their unique ways. They never said "we need to improve our base levels."

Obviously by the merits of training they get stronger regardless. But their power up isn't coming from their base, it's because of their transcended SUper Saiyans. The base Saiyans have no feats nor ANY evidence of their power level.

Based
Originally posted by Galan007
I hinted at the answer to this question in my above posts hoping to avoid typing a breathy mega-post, but what the hell...

Frieza's PL @ 100%=120,000,000
Frieza's PL @ 50%=60,000,000

Therefore, the PL of Goku's 20x kaioken would have been right around the 60,000,000 mark as well(arguably a little greater, given that he nearly killed Frieza with a kamehameha.) Subsequently, this puts Goku's base PL w/o the kaioken powerup at 3,000,000(60,000,000/20=3,000,000.)

Using the above 'formula', you'll find that Goku would have needed to have a base PL of just over 6,000,000 to defeat a fully powered Frieza with the same amp(6,000,000*20=120,000,000.)
.

Uhh no, the official guide book has Goku's Super Saiyan PL at 150 million. Freeza's was 120 million. 150 million divided by 50 is 3 million. The Freeza saga's numbers are finalized by the guidebooks which are approved and I believed worked on by Akira himself.

"This Daizenshuu, the 7th and final one, is a huge Dragon Ball encyclopedia. I think the staff who make these books always have a rough time of it, but this one looked even more hellish than usual. They really did a great job."

dadudemon
Originally posted by Based
Uhh no, the official guide book has Goku's Super Saiyan PL at 150 million. Freeza's was 120 million. 150 million divided by 50 is 3 million. The Freeza saga's numbers are finalized by the guidebooks which are approved and I believed worked on by Akira himself.

"This Daizenshuu, the 7th and final one, is a huge Dragon Ball encyclopedia. I think the staff who make these books always have a rough time of it, but this one looked even more hellish than usual. They really did a great job."

You missed the "50%" number in his post. At the time Goku damaged Frieza, he was at 50% power making Frieza's PL 60,000,000.

Galan007
Originally posted by Based
Okay, it's still an amplifier and it's not his base form. He was powered 20 times his actual base. No, kaioken is a technique. A technique of which Goku frequently used while in his base form(including his battle with Cooler in Movie #5.) If you're trying to neuter one of his abilities, then you need to neuter ALL of his abilities-- you cannot fallaciously pick and choose which powers Goku can use and which he cannot. That is a ludicrous methodology.

Aside from that: this is a VERSUS BATTLE. Unless specified in the OP, characters can use ALL abilities at their disposal-- not just some of them. Simple.

Originally posted by Based
What the fvck is this? The OP said base Goku. Therefore that means no amplifiers. In a real situation ofc Goku would use kaioken but the OP said base. C'mon. Lol? The OP specifying "base Goku" doesn't mean "no powering up in his base level". It means: "no SSJ". Simple.

Originally posted by Based
And what damage do you see? A burnt hand? The page right before this has Goku exclaiming about the little damage he sent to Freeza. Frieza himself stated that Goku's blast nearly killed him. I'll take Frieza's word over yours. thumb up

Originally posted by Based
But their power up isn't coming from their base, it's because of their transcended SUper Saiyans. The base Saiyans have no feats nor ANY evidence of their power level. Lol? Per the Daizenshuu, the power of a SSJ is directly proportional to the power of a base Saiyan. Why? Because a Saiyan's base PL is increased by 50x when they transform into a SSJ(ie. base PL*50=SSJ PL.) Therefore, for a SSJ's PL to increase, the PL of their base form would HAVE to increase as well. It works both ways. Simple.

Originally posted by Based
Uhh no, the official guide book has Goku's Super Saiyan PL at 150 million. Freeza's was 120 million. 150 million divided by 50 is 3 million. The Freeza saga's numbers are finalized by the guidebooks which are approved and I believed worked on by Akira himself.

"This Daizenshuu, the 7th and final one, is a huge Dragon Ball encyclopedia. I think the staff who make these books always have a rough time of it, but this one looked even more hellish than usual. They really did a great job." You apparently didn't comprehend my post. Read it again. You'll probably feel silly.

bbrem123
Originally posted by Based

Regardless based on the new movie there's a line implying the base Saiyans are weaker than Freeza. Regardless of how you want to take form it, during this time base Goku gets massively raped. I mean it's right in the movie... You wanna use the new movie as proof Goku's base form is weaker then Frieza? You do know they can lower there power level right? Anyways based on the last fight in new movie base form Goku is as strong a Bills. So yea he stomps Cooler.

vansonbee
You don't know that fully. ^ God Goku going back to base might of have some sort of left over amp.

bbrem123
as of now we dont know...but he was able to revert to god mode with out any aid during bills final attack. Seem like a permenant upgrade to me. Also if Goku does not have this upgrade he will be a ***** to all his new enemy like ssj3 was to bills.

either way saying his current base form is weaker then frieza is stupid. His base form vs frieza is a joke compared to his current base form.

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