Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Alright, so this is really only a thread to test a theory I have.

Starhawk has the "one who knows" power (PIS device), that essentially gives him a general cosmic awareness, and as a top tier energy/light manipulator in Marvel (plus the ability to scan individuals for weakness, etc), he should be able to exploit the red sunlight weakness Superman has for at least a slim majority over supes.

SH is fast enough to deal with any blitz Supes might try, has FTL reflexes and intangibility. I'll be straight and say, if the red sunlight thing doesn't work, supes takes a clear majority. However, I think it is totally reasonable that SH, if he doesn't know at the onset of the fight, learns very quickly that Supes has the red sun weakness, and is able to exploit it for probably 7/10 victories.

This might be the start in a series of threads where I try to prove SH is, at least, at the absolute top of the mid herald, if not high herald status. Don't hold your breath for the next ones, just saying. lol

Starhawk was good being able to stalemate Thor was pretty good, Superman I don't know a different beast. But if Starhawk uses his powers to the best of his abilities than he might have a chance of breaking even.

that is sort of what I am suggesting

I'm not trying to advocate that SH is on the same level as Supes, just that his powers give him the ability to counter Supers almost directly. Like if there was a high meta character who just happened to have Kryptonite powers

Superman rubs his hands together and traps SH into an energy field if we're going by that route. Don't hold your breath in speed. Superman blitzes lightspeed and FTL characters regularly.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman rubs his hands together and traps SH into an energy field if we're going by that route.

the... what?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Don't hold your breath in speed. Superman blitzes lightspeed and FTL characters regularly.

lol, oh

Originally posted by Oliver North
the... what?



lol, oh
Behold superman trapping swamp thing's energy form. It was with X-rays though. I was remembering superman rubbing his hands together to seal a dimensional rift and palming a black hole.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15926132_swampthing79e.jpg

Starhawk can escape it, since he can go FTL.

You want me to list the lightspeed characters superman has punked?

lol at using a pre-crisis scan to prove regular stuff superman can do

facepalm
That's post crisis superman gundam.

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Swamp_Thing_Vol_2_79

irrelevant to the thread nonetheless

Don't get it.. Why was that x-ray thing brought up?
Especially on how u described it. Whole lot of misrepresenting going on...

"Superman rubs his hands together and traps SH into an energy field if we're going by that route."

cause abhi has a stack of superman comics right next to where the door to leave his home is

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Don't get it.. Why was that x-ray thing brought up?
Especially on how u described it. Whole lot of misrepresenting going on...

"Superman rubs his hands together and traps SH into an energy field if we're going by that route."
I mixed two different feats here. I corrected that when I post the actual scan. Stop being so butthurt over anything I say.

If Starhawk gets to use weakness exploitation which I doubt he's ever done, why limit superman when he's done this electrical attack many time? Seriously dude? Originally posted by psycho gundam
irrelevant to the thread nonetheless
Haha. Backtracking ftw.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I mixed two different feats here. I corrected that when I post the actual scan. Stop being so butthurt over anything I say.

If Starhawk gets to use weakness exploitation which I doubt he's ever done, why limit superman when he's done this electrical attack many time? Seriously dude?

I still don't get it. Why would I be butthurt if I'm not the one who constantly puts his foot in his mouth? Meh.. wutevers..

I do appreciate ure honesty with that correction though. Gud job.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I still don't get it. Why would I be butthurt if I'm not the one who constantly puts his foot in his mouth? Meh.. wutevers..

I do appreciate ure honesty with that correction though. Gud job.

With the way you keep spewing same things over and over.

Ok.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Behold superman trapping swamp thing's energy form. It was with X-rays though. I was remembering superman rubbing his hands together to seal a dimensional rift and palming a black hole.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15926132_swampthing79e.jpg

Starhawk can escape it, since he can go FTL.

You want me to list the lightspeed characters superman has punked?

so, your response to a question about whether Starhawk could use Superman's weakness to red sunlight is to post a one-off scan of a tactic you admit Superman wouldn't be able to use to defeat Starhawk.

No, I'm good on such a list... Do you have an actual opinion on the OP though?

Originally posted by abhilegend
If Starhawk gets to use weakness exploitation which I doubt he's ever done,

what don't you think Starhawk has done?

Originally posted by abhilegend
facepalm
That's post crisis superman gundam.

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Swamp_Thing_Vol_2_79

doesn't this suggest Superman was Sun-amped when he performed the feat?

LOL, and Swamp Thing uses light to blind and defeat Superman... abhi, your scan shows just how well Starhawk could do against Supes, thanks, I didn't realize you were on my side here...

Abhi, cut the attitude.

Guys, please stay on topic.

Originally posted by Oliver North
so, your response to a question about whether Starhawk could use Superman's weakness to red sunlight is to post a one-off scan of a tactic you admit Superman wouldn't be able to use to defeat Starhawk.

No, I'm good on such a list... Do you have an actual opinion on the OP though?



what don't you think Starhawk has done?
Well, I admitted starhawk would escape from that containment.

I don't see starhawk being able to down superman. His sole chance is weakness exploitation, but barring an extremely OOC tactic of red sunlight, I don't see it plausible. I have a question, does starhawk's default fighting mode is in energy form?Originally posted by Oliver North
doesn't this suggest Superman was Sun-amped when he performed the feat?

LOL, and Swamp Thing uses light to blind and defeat Superman... abhi, your scan shows just how well Starhawk could do against Supes, thanks, I didn't realize you were on my side here...

No, he was getting at full power.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/swampthing79c.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/swampthing79d.jpg

Also I posted wrong scans, here is the one I was talking about. Its late here.

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/15927286_SwampThingV2079-19.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/15927287_SwampThingV2079-20.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
Its late here. that will never stop you

SH

Starhawk wins.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Well, I admitted starhawk would escape from that containment.

so, as I and others said, you posted something irrelevant to the fight

Originally posted by abhilegend
I don't see starhawk being able to down superman. His sole chance is weakness exploitation, but barring an extremely OOC tactic of red sunlight, I don't see it plausible.

SH is one of Marvel's top herald energy manipulators, he can control light to the point of turning his body into it or to heal people from actual death... Changing the colour of the light would be trivial

Originally posted by abhilegend
I have a question, does starhawk's default fighting mode is in energy form?

no, is your point that superman might blitz him before he is able to, because lol if so

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, he was getting at full power.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/swampthing79c.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/swampthing79d.jpg

as an aside, I can't read those scans because they appear very small in my browser, anyone know what I'm doing wrong?

anyways, I looked up the issue, it still seems like an amp, but w/e, actually not relevant overall...

Originally posted by abhilegend
Also I posted wrong scans, here is the one I was talking about. Its late here.

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/15927286_SwampThingV2079-19.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/15927287_SwampThingV2079-20.jpg

I can't help but guess you are trying to say Superman is a better energy manipulator than is Starhawk... Which is outright ridiculous

also, do you have any opinion on the OP? seriously

Originally posted by Oliver North
so, as I and others said, you posted something irrelevant to the fight
Ok.

Many chracters can do that. I'm not impressed. How would he know of red sun radiation?



Wanna compare feats? What is the highest feat Starhawk in speed?



Go to the end of the page and click on full version.

Glad that's settled.



Never even implied that. Superman trapping him in the energies enough to contain a black hole or seal a multiversal rift in reality for incapacitation isn't that ridiculous.

No opinion as I've not read anything about starhawk.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No opinion as I've not read anything about starhawk.

thanks for the input

Originally posted by quanchi112
Starhawk wins.

Originally posted by Oliver North
thanks for the input
Well, educate me then. What kind of fan you are?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Well, educate me then. What kind of fan you are?

not the sisyphean type at least

at the risk of belaboring a point, in your rush to try and prove Superman could out manipulate Starhawk, you produced scans that show not only a tactic that wouldn't work against Starhawk, but actually show Superman being downed by a light-based attack.

what type of fan is that?

Originally posted by Oliver North
not the sisyphean type at least

at the risk of belaboring a point, in your rush to try and prove Superman could out manipulate Starhawk, you produced scans that show not only a tactic that wouldn't work against Starhawk, but actually show Superman being downed by a light-based attack.

what type of fan is that?

Superman can certainly place starhawk in an electro-magnetic field strong enough to contain a black hole or seal a multiversal rift in time-space.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/jla077b.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/jla077c.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/jla077d.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/jla077e.jpg

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/thenext01b.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/thenext01a.jpg

Where was superman downed by Swamp-thing entering his eyes? Superman took him out just after that with "rubbing his hands together". Make sure you read the scans before jumping to conclusions.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman can certainly place starhawk in an electro-magnetic field strong enough to contain a black hole or seal a multiversal rift in time-space.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/jla077b.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/jla077c.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/jla077d.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/jla077e.jpg

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/thenext01b.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/thenext01a.jpg

Where was superman downed by Swamp-thing entering his eyes? Superman took him out just after that with "rubbing his hands together". Make sure you read the scans before jumping to conclusions.
Huh?

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Huh?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman can certainly place starhawk in an electro-magnetic field strong enough to contain a black hole or seal a multiversal rift in time-space.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/jla077b.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/jla077c.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/jla077d.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Crazy%20Feats/jla077e.jpg

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/thenext01b.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/thenext01a.jpg

Where was superman downed by Swamp-thing entering his eyes? Superman took him out just after that with "rubbing his hands together". Make sure you read the scans before jumping to conclusions.

Korvac...

Originally posted by Oliver North
Korvac...
Do you want me to list all the skyfathers and abstracts superman has fought?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Do you want me to list all the skyfathers and abstracts superman has fought?

You are, like, determined not to discuss the topic of the thread, eh?

So you are conceding that being able to compete with Korvac, Eon or Keeper (Surfer w/Q-bands), or being able to heal people like Valkyrie or Keeper from sure death, make Starhawk a better energy manipulator than Superman rubbing his hands together?

/smh

Originally posted by abhilegend

I thought u said HE created a magnetic field? And how is he going to put SH in said field? Ure like bustin out stuff that has no application. I still don't see where he can create a containment unit/magnetic field?!?

lol

I don't even know what's being argued anymore.

Originally posted by Oliver North
thanks for the input

Originally posted by Oliver North
You are, like, determined not to discuss the topic of the thread, eh?

So you are conceding that being able to compete with Korvac, Eon or Keeper (Surfer w/Q-bands), or being able to heal people like Valkyrie or Keeper from sure death, make Starhawk a better energy manipulator than Superman rubbing his hands together?

/smh
durelly

Yes, that makes starhawk a better energy manipulator. I didn't say otherwise anywhere. However I can see superman trapping him in an electro-magnetic field which he wouldn't be able to escape.Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I thought u said HE created a magnetic field? And how is he going to put SH in said field? Ure like bustin out stuff that has no application. I still don't see where he can create a containment unit/magnetic field?!?
facepalm

How often do you see Superman trapping Starhawk (or anyone) in an electromagnetic field out of ten fights?

'Originally posted by Oliver North
not the sisyphean type at least

at the risk of belaboring a point, in your rush to try and prove Superman could out manipulate Starhawk, you produced scans that show not only a tactic that wouldn't work against Starhawk, but actually show Superman being downed by a light-based attack.

what type of fan is that?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
How often do you see Superman trapping Starhawk (or anyone) in an electromagnetic field out of ten fights?
Not many. Maybe 2 times outta ten.

Originally posted by abhilegend
durelly
facepalm
Still don't see how he's going to make a magnetic field that can hold SH. What's he gonna do, rub his hands together for some static electricity then poof, SH is held in place... I mean seriously? Like I said. Where is the application of this move?

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Still don't see how he's going to make a magnetic field that can hold SH. What's he gonna do, rub his hands together for some static electricity then poof, SH is held in place... I mean seriously? Like I said. Where is the application of this move?
That's exactly what he did against swamp thing and that black hole.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's exactly what he did against swamp thing and that black hole.
First off, it was Swampy's bio-energy form that was susceptible to a magnetic field.

2nd, He didn't trap ST at all when he started rubbing his hands together dit it? He theorized it can hold him by copying wut Lex did. What happened when ST moved at the speed of light?

3rd, Supes already was already holding the black hole in his hands before he started rubbing his hands together. If you can convince me how SH would just stand there in place and in close proximity to Supes while he starts making static electricity, uve got something.

4th, Why even bring up that scan when in case u didn't notice, Supes had the aid of a magnetic GL construct to help "corral it into a field"? I mean wtf are u really arguing here?

I may be me missing something or not informed enough of what else Supe's "rubbing of hands" has done, but ure really just trying to sell us fantasy. Pure fantasy. Where is the application? Where is the possible circumstance? In the end where is the proof?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, that makes starhawk a better energy manipulator. I didn't say otherwise anywhere. However I can see superman trapping him in an electro-magnetic field which he wouldn't be able to escape.


That doesn't follow though: By nature of being a better energy manipulator, Starhawk would have more control over the electromagnetic energy than would Superman.

Either way, the tactic is pointless, Starhawk moves faster than EM energy does and EM fields don't absorb light, meaning SH could, literally, pass through the field effortlessly.

And just to point out again, Swamp Thing was able to escape Superman's field because he had the properties of light, your scans proving my point nicely.

Im leaning towards Starhawk for the upset, his powers would work well against Superman

Inimalist, Not to be facetious at all, but I'm assuming that for the purposes of this thread the Hollywood fight wouldn't be admissible here given that Simon was still ionic powered and had little trouble seeming to overwhelm Starhawk physically?

superman should have absolutely no issue overwhelming Starhawk physically, especially if we go with the version of the character not combined with Aleta.

I'm not suggesting this is an easy fight for SH at all, and Superman could win the majority easily.

I'm just trying to understand what the parameters are for this fight if any? Is it just a straight up match with Starhawk making use of his energy manipulation or is it stipulated that this is an energy match?

no, abhi just took it in that direction

just a straight out fight, I've got a theory that Starhawk is sort of like a direct counter to a Kryptonian like Supes, so I wanted some feedback.

Ah ok gotcha.

Supes has feats of using this relatively limited power set to overcome characters that are seemingly tailor made to beat him (EM spectrum manipulators, dudes with ridiculous TK and TP et al) and the like. He also has instances of succumbing to said foes with plot powers.

Based on his showings against Thor and Hollywood, physically Starhawk definitely has the chin to take Superman's average/usual shit. It's when the dials go up that he'd be in trouble imo. If we mix in his speed and his "self awareness" ability where he can see future and past events related to himself combined with his light based powers he could give Clark hell. In a comic it'd go something like, SH defeats Supes in the initial encounter by some manipulation or another which catches Supes off guard. Then in round two, a better prepared Supes comes back and KO's Starhawk or some such. You know how superhero comics go.

In a forum however it's a bit more tricky for me. One of those cases where Supes has the overwhelming advantage in "battleboard porn" (feats, showings etc) but Starhawk has a unique power set advantage that kind of throws a monkey wrench in it and makes it more interesting then some people will acknowledge.

That said, at the end of the day Clark has the advantage in 2 of the 3 most important forum categories and it's hard to give Starhawk a forum win based on power set alone, which is where his sole advantage is. Superman 7/10. But he feels the pain of each and every one of those 10 at the end of the day.

thanks!

Why can't Superman blitz the **** out of Starhawk again?

He is some vague amount above lightspeed in flight--(something about lightspeed+ acceleration against Pathbreaker robots), whereas Superman is clear cut able to move and think within femtoseconds (or less) as if they were normal seconds to him--(if you can move your fist 12 inches during a femtosecond, it is effectively moving over 1 million times faster than light), and Starhawk is less than clear cut in that case in outright reflexes, as his feats are limited by his limited appearances.

Superman can casually match Professor Zoom in speed after getting annoyed. Starhawk has little on that I imagine.

the pathbreaker robot feat suggests Starhawk is exponentially faster than light.

how fast is Zoom, then?

(also, the whole being able to turn his body into light thing)

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Why can't Superman blitz the **** out of Starhawk again?

He is some vague amount above lightspeed in flight--(something about lightspeed+ acceleration against Pathbreaker robots), whereas Superman is clear cut able to move and think within femtoseconds (or less) as if they were normal seconds to him--(if you can move your fist 12 inches during a femtosecond, it is effectively moving over 1 million times faster than light), and Starhawk is less than clear cut in that case in outright reflexes, as his feats are limited by his limited appearances.

Superman can casually match Professor Zoom in speed after getting annoyed. Starhawk has little on that I imagine.
u referring to that time he warned some chick with a force field?
Something like "u have a femtosecond to blah blah etc.."

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
u referring to that time he warned some chick with a force field?
Something like "u have a femtosecond to blah blah etc.."

No.

I mean events like him treating a mere fraction of a nanosecond as if they were entire minutes or something, and being able to measure time in between nanoseconds.

There's also in Superman Grounded, where he caught Barry Allen ---who was going so fast that he was building entire kryptonian landscapes/Cities/Towns/Costumes over a city in Colorado in mere seconds. In that same book, Barry bragged about seeing things in attoseconds (which is even more ridiculous, and hence I settled with the middle ground of femtseconds) or less, and Superman still outright matched his perception speed. ~Professor Zoom is on the same level as Barry, on top of being a time manipulator as is, and Superman effortlessly tagged him, Prof Zoom then commended Superman's speed as being comparable to his own, and then Superman reversed a speed vortex from Zoom during that same fight.

and how fast does it say they were going on panel?

It does not say specifically, but Barry's feat in Colorado is quantifiably greater than Wally's feat of saving people from a nuke (which was calc'd at trillions of times faster than light by someone).

But we do have Barry giving a time-frame for his reflexes in that same book, which he stated as ~attoseconds, and Superman still matched his perception speed while trying to catch him while he was out of control and building/knitting all that stuff, and when they were in the diner eating pie and shit.

so it's unquantifiable and possible hyperbole?

cool

Its quantifiable, being that we are given a figure for reflexes in the book, know the size of the city, number of buildings etc and its greater than any speed feat Starhawk has in his resume.

Funny you should say something about hyperbole, as Starhawk's work still falls flat in that regard.

The best thing he has is breaking some robot after accelerating to lightspeed 'instantly', which is extremely vague and no reason whatsoever to claim a speed parity with the likes of Superman.

We have no idea of how fast the robot's could actually respond and thus what their threshold for speed was.

lol, how do you define vague?

also, you don't remember that feat as well as you think you do

I remember it well, as I just saw it again before making that post.

The robot attacked Starhawk while he was going at some undefined speed, and then Starhawk dodged after accelerating to lightspeed 'instantly' and then compounding his speed even more and broke said pathbreaker. This was all in one page, in like 3 or 4 panels.

We have no clue how fast the Pathbreaker can react because simply being able to attack something while you're moving at a comparable speed is not indicative of anything. If I punch a guy that's driving a car at 100 mph after I catch up to him while driving 105 mph myself, that says nothing great about my punching speed, as the relative speed difference is not much, just as it would not be if we were simply running, or even centered in one spot. A human does not have mach speeds for being able shoot on a sonic jet that's in front of them while they're in a jet going the same speed too.

Yeah I doubt speed will be a problem for Shawk. He's jumped into lightspeed instantly and even "compounded it geometrically" as how the comic stated.

Define 'instantly'. This is a vague term that is liberally used in fiction all over and its interpretation can mean anything from a literal instant (usually more concretely stated) to only fractions of a second.

His feat against the Pathbreaker, even if we assume he was making a u-turn at a 100 times the speed of light to crash into it, is still nowhere close to Superman's best speed and reflex feats.

would you let me in on these feats where it is stated, on panel, that superman is going that fast?

EDIT: defining "instant" is certainly less vague than trying to calculate speed based on the artist's rendition of something unquantified. By that precedent, every street-level character that has dodged a bullet has legit faster than sound reflexes and should be creating sonic-booms as they move. You can't apply real world science to comics that directly, or you get nonsense.

What do you mean something unquantifiable? In the case of Superman, he is the one between the two actually being given explicit time-frames for his feats, explicit figures for reflexes in comparison to others. Superman is given quantifiable distances, and fairly explicit time frames for his feats, that's quantifiable.

Usage of the word 'instant' is vague, and thus cannot be used by you to indicate parity of speed for Starhawk vs Superman, especially as the latter has his own scenes being defined as 'instantly' or what have you.

The street-leveler thing is a red herring. Its just a trope for the tier that is not to be taken seriously and cannot be seriously entered as quantifiable speed feats except for a few cases, and its not like other writers haven't tried to explain those showings as aim-dodging either.

From what I see, you basically don't want to enter a situation of trying to quantify speed feats because Superman, being a character who has immensely more showings than Starhawk, is going to win hands down. This is reason enough in your case to try to just hand-wave any difference by assuming a parity through vague showings that leave a lot of questions, simply because you can still reach a conclusion that 'he's very fast, so lets just assume Superman won't win on that front'. Sorry, but while that mindset works fine in a comic fight, in a forum setting Superman's speed feats utterly trump Starhawk's.

Originally posted by Oliver North
would you let me in on these feats where it is stated, on panel, that superman is going that fast?

Since you want to get into specific calculations, lets revisit your earlier post.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
No.

I mean events like him treating a mere fraction of a nanosecond as if they were entire minutes or something, and being able to measure time in between nanoseconds.

There's also in Superman Grounded, where he caught Barry Allen ---who was going so fast that he was building entire kryptonian landscapes/Cities/Towns/Costumes over a city in Colorado in mere seconds. In that same book, Barry bragged about seeing things in attoseconds (which is even more ridiculous, and hence I settled with the middle ground of femtseconds) or less, and Superman still outright matched his perception speed. ~Professor Zoom is on the same level as Barry, on top of being a time manipulator as is, and Superman effortlessly tagged him, Prof Zoom then commended Superman's speed as being comparable to his own, and then Superman reversed a speed vortex from Zoom during that same fight.
How fast was Barry going exactly when Supes caught up with him?

Were they perceiving things in attoseconds?

How fast was Zoom going when he was tagged?

I have to be honest, of all the things I would have never guessed this thread would be about, energy manip and speed... jeez...

Inimalist, I'll get back to you with scans soon.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Since you want to get into specific calculations, lets revisit your earlier post.

How fast was Barry going exactly when Supes caught up with him?

Were they perceiving things in attoseconds?

How fast was Zoom going when he was tagged?

There's two ways you can go about this.

You can either go by the explicit statement of Barry's stated reflexes/percepttion speed as being attoseconds or less in the same book--the book where Superman matched Barry's reflexes/perception speed three times, (while catching him while he was messing with the cityscape, while they both split the work in half to repair the city back to normal, and while time was stated to be frozen to them while they were eating and talking in the diner.) or you can try to independently quantify the exact city changing feat by researching the size of the city, extrapolating the number of pedestrians out an average day etc and come to a reflex figure of your own. It's far, far above lightspeed by the way.

Either way, you have a situation where Starhawk's feats don't match up.

He has no attosecond feats, and he has zero practical speed feats to suggest he can do something as complex as build Kryptonian structures around an entire city--and then undo them and redo them again to account for newer age architecture through their many years of advancement, paint each structure to accuracy, knit individual costumes for every single pedestrian on the street, and then clothe each individual person with said costumes--all in a time frame of a few seconds.

As for the Professor Zoom thing? This is much more simple than you're trying to make it. Zoom made no such statement like "Good job Superman, you matched my speed and reflexes while I toned them down to 1%!" or something or another. No, he was categorically stated by Zoom to be as comparably fast period. Professor Zoom and Barry are at least peers in speed. Both have speeds that Starhawk cannot touch, and Starhawk has not been compared favorably in speed to anyone that might either, and yet Superman has compared well to both of them, with feats and statements.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Inimalist

inimalist

the "i" isn't capitalized

Originally posted by Oliver North
would you let me in on these feats where it is stated, on panel, that superman is going that fast?

EDIT: defining "instant" is certainly less vague than trying to calculate speed based on the artist's rendition of something unquantified. By that precedent, every street-level character that has dodged a bullet has legit faster than sound reflexes and should be creating sonic-booms as they move. You can't apply real world science to comics that directly, or you get nonsense. I agree completely with the last part. You can't pick and choose when to apply real world science.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
There's two ways you can go about this.

You can either go by the explicit statement of Barry's stated reflexes/percepttion speed as being attoseconds or less in the same book--the book where Superman matched Barry's reflexes/perception speed three times, (while catching him while he was messing with the cityscape, while they both split the work in half to repair the city back to normal, and while time was stated to be frozen to them while they were eating and talking in the diner.) or you can try to independently quantify the exact city changing feat by researching the size of the city, extrapolating the number of pedestrians out an average day etc and come to a reflex figure of your own. It's far, far above lightspeed by the way.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I agree completely with the last part. You can't pick and choose when to apply real world science.

so, this goes back to what I was saying about Comet not remembering the SH feat properly. I'm just going to post the scan here:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/15932828_02.jpg

There are two important things to note here, the speed being "compound geometrically" and "multi-erg velocity". Going by real science, this actually makes Starhawks speed infinite. Let me explain.

Something being effected geometrically means it increases by some value, either linearly or to some exponent, though an exponent of 2 is the only one that really makes sense in this case. Dont worry, this part isn't really important. The compound thing is. When you compound the change to a value, you aren't just increasing it. It means that, the more you increase it, the more it is able to be increased.

So, think of interest. If I own 100 dollars at 5% interest, my first payment is $5. If it is compound interest, instead of my second interest payment also being $5, it is 5% of 105, the next being 5% of (105+5%), and the next payment being 5% of that total, increasing each time. So, at whatever geometric value Starhawk is increasing his velocity at, in fact, it produces even greater increases in speed. This type of acceleration is going to put Starhawk at several times the speed of light in a few iterations, and at hundreds and thousands of times only moments after that.

Additionally, if we look at the "Multi-erg velocity" statement. ERG is a unit of energy, not a unit of speed. Basically, this means SH is moving so fast that he is generating, rather than consuming, energy, and violating the second law of thermodynamics.

Now, in my mind this is hyperbole that suggests Starhawk can move several times the speed of light. If we want to be pedantic, the argument that it means Starhawk is infinitely fast is much less of an inference than is anything involving Superman constructing houses. But like Quanch said, you can't apply science like this. Writers and artists can't and shouldn't be held to peer review standard when doing this stuff, and it is up to us to have some eye for the nuance involved.

That's a pretty sweet feat.

agreed, its from the last issue of the GotG run, and Starhawk was just showing some real power. It's sad the character really hasn't been returned to.

Lmao @ "I simply jumped to instant lightspeed". Like it was as casual as just hopping in his car and going to the store or something lol.


CC is to speed what Mr Master is to arguing Eternity vs Infinity. He loves that shit lol.

Smh... @ dropping Infinite Mass Essays.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Omg... Is it just me or did you just try to play some jedi-mind-trickery with this duplicitous response..?
"I love the character cause he's so blah blah blah, but..."

Lol, u made it too obvious when u added a little too much lowballery in-between a few legit shortcomings...

It had nothing to do with the debate, but your cynicism is amusing, its not like there's much left to say on your part. I was just saying, I knew new little about the character to start with and he came out pretty interesting, while I set out to read simply to read up on his feats, I came out liking him very much.

I could have simply read a few issues to get the gist of his levels, but those 62 issues were actually a great read. I came to like that roster of the GoTG enough to read all of the issues. All of those characters have their idiosyncrasies that I found interesting. Yondu, Martinex, Charlie-27, they were pretty cool dudes. Nikki was hot, but ditzy. Ended up hating Aleta, and didn't like that punk Vance Astro one bit.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
It had nothing to do with the debate, but your cynicism is amusing, its not like there's much left to say on your part. I was just saying, I knew new little about the character to start with and he came out pretty interesting, while I set out to read simply to read up on his feats, I came out liking him very much.

I could have simply read a few issues to get the gist of his levels, but those 62 issues were actually a great read. I came to like that roster of the GoTG enough to read all of the issues. All of those characters have their idiosyncrasies that I found interesting. Yondu, Martinex, Charlie-27, they were pretty cool dudes. Nikki was hot, but ditzy. Ended up hating Aleta, and didn't like that punk Vance Astro one bit.
Well I for one could care less about Shawk.. He's a little pu$$y..
Too emo for my tastes..

Originally posted by JBL
Superman has never in his career moved his hands, feet or any other part of his body at your claimed speeds. WW has faster reflexes than superman and she has never in her entire career moved with reflexes twice the speed of light. Flash cannot move at the speeds you are claiming. Superman does not have faster than light reflexes. When a number is given like when shockwaves from an explosion coming at him at lightspeed, he could not react to it nor dodge it, when zoom and flash were fighting at light speed ( flash borrowed speed ) superman could not react, track, nor help flash. A number was given in the comics. So by your thinking, Wonder Woman reflexes is in the billions of times faster than light????? Not true at all.
Country1000, shut up already.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Country1000, shut up already. What? Your love for superman has really pushed you over the edge fellow. Find yourself a new character to get upset over, try Tyrant or Odin.

Originally posted by JBL
Superman has never in his career moved his hands, feet or any other part of his body at your claimed speeds. WW has faster reflexes than superman and she has never in her entire career moved with reflexes twice the speed of light. Flash cannot move at the speeds you are claiming. Superman does not have faster than light reflexes. When a number is given like when shockwaves from an explosion coming at him at lightspeed, he could not react to it nor dodge it, when zoom and flash were fighting at light speed ( flash borrowed speed ) superman could not react, track, nor help flash. A number was given in the comics. So by your thinking, Wonder Woman reflexes is in the billions of times faster than light????? Not true at all. http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/96884/1917951-1858237_epic_facepalm_super.jpg

Originally posted by JBL
What? Your love for superman has really pushed you over the edge fellow. Find yourself a new character to get upset over, try Tyrant or Odin.
You are fooling nobody.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/9/96884/1917951-1858237_epic_facepalm_super.jpg A scan stating that superman is fighting at light speed would be better for you to post, but since none exist, i guess a face palm will do... Nice superman S symbol you have, looks almost as good as abhilegends superman.

No u.

Originally posted by abhilegend
You are fooling nobody. Thats it huh? This is your defense?

Originally posted by JBL
Thats it huh? This is your defense?
Give it up already.