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who wins this fight to the death?

Even though he's the master of Soreus I think Obi gets outclassed by everyone else here.

Team one wins with moderate difficulty.

Team 1 7/10. Kenobi would go down before one from Team 1 would.

I disagree with Obi being taken out early. It's the master of soresu we're talking about here. He would be able to hold out for quite awhile I recton against Dooku... against sids prob not as long.. but he also wouldn't get struck down early either.

Based on respective fights against almost identical fighers in terms of skill , Mace and Dooku should be able to stand a good 50 seconds. Kenobi has consistently struggled with Grievous, Ventress, and, excluding his extremely circumstancial victory over the brothers, his record against Maul is also negative. My guess would be for him to last 25 seconds or so.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
He would be able to hold out for quite awhile I recton against Dooku... against sids prob not as long..

Sids isn't in this.

Edit- Just noticed it's your thread so you obviously know that!

I was merely pointing out that I don't think Obi would be overwhelmed by somebody faster than even Dooku. Sure he would eventtually... but my point is... it's his thing to hold out a long time and that is what I see him being able to do.

I'd say Team 2 has a shot... I mean, if Obi-Wan can hold off Mace long enough for Yoda to deal with Mace, then they could win. Then again, he probably can't as Yoda/Mace are probably closer than Dooku/Obi in sabers.

Team 1, but it's close.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I was merely pointing out that I don't think Obi would be overwhelmed by somebody faster than even Dooku.
wut

Sidious would blitz Kenobi.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
wut

Sidious would blitz Kenobi.
Considering that Kenobi was fast enough to fight brothers simultaneously and fast enough to defeat Anakin - one of the fastest characters in the mythos, I find it hard to believe.

Kenobi is in the same speed class as Maul. If anything, Maul is faster.

Sidious moves so fast Maul can't see him:

The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me.

Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow. I smell heat and smoke. The laser traces the outline of my body, my face, my hands. The buzz is loud in my ear. One flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle, and I am dead.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Kenobi is in the same speed class as Maul. If anything, Maul is faster.

Sidious moves so fast Maul can't see him:

The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me.

Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow. I smell heat and smoke. The laser traces the outline of my body, my face, my hands. The buzz is loud in my ear. One flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle, and I am dead.
So you gonna rely on a quote, where Maul is still a learning apprentice and ignore all the performances displayed in TCW?

Originally posted by Arhael
So you gonna rely on a quote, where Maul is still a learning apprentice
As was Sidious.
Originally posted by Arhael
and ignore all the performances displayed in TCW?
Prove CW Maul is faster than TPM Maul.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
As was Sidious.
Prove that Sidious wasn't as good as he is in TCW.


I don't need to. It's enough for me to know that he is fast enough to fight Sidious alone and at the same time is not fast enough to defeat Kenobi, when aided by brother.

For future reference, this also proves that Sidious' speed was drastically reduced in his fight with the brothers.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
For future reference, this also proves that Sidious' speed was drastically reduced in his fight with the brothers.
No, it doesn't.

Originally posted by Arhael
Prove that Sidious wasn't as good as he is in TCW.
How about you prove that Maul wasn't as good as in TCW?


Originally posted by Arhael
I don't need to. It's enough for me to know that he is fast enough to fight Sidious alone and at the same time is not fast enough to defeat Kenobi, when aided by brother.
You do, actually. The fact that Sidious is so fast that for Maul to ''flinch'' is enough for him to die proves Sidious was toying with him.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
How about you prove that Maul wasn't as good as in TCW?

My prove is all the feats that he demonstrated after that event.

If you think that featless and not-fully trained Maul at the time was as good and fast as he was later, well, you are free to believe so.



That's not proof, that's your opinion.

For future reference, Sidious fought with the same speed he fought Mace, it's easy to see, when comparing both fights.

Originally posted by Arhael
My prove is all the feats that he demonstrated after that event.

If you think that featless and not-fully trained Maul at the time was as good and fast as he was later, well, you are free to believe so.
There is zero proof. Growing in power doesn't translate to growing in speed. It is noted in the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia that Sidious surpassed Plagueis after he killed him, and Sidious' speed demonstration was before he killed Plagueis.



Originally posted by Arhael
That's not proof, that's your opinion.


If Sidious is so fast that neither Maul nor Opress can see him, then why were they able to trade blows?

There are two conclusions:

a) Sidious was toying with them (logical conclusion)
b) CW Maul and Opress are both faster than TPM Maul. (lacks proof)

Originally posted by Arhael
For future reference, Sidious fought with the same speed he fought Mace, it's easy to see, when comparing both fights.
He didn't?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
There is zero proof. Growing in power doesn't translate to growing in speed. It is noted in the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia that Sidious surpassed Plagueis after he killed him, and Sidious' speed demonstration was before he killed Plagueis.

Speed depends on skill and capabilities, which grows overtime just like power.


When exactly Opress cannot see Sidious? He was fast enough to block all Sidious' saber attacks and lost due to kicks, which he have always had hard time defending against.


These are your conclusions.


Filoni took the moves from fight with Windu and expended on it. If anything, Sidious demonstrated better performance against brothers than Windu.

Originally posted by Arhael
Speed depends on skill and capabilities, which grows overtime just like power.
Plagueis mentions that he can feel Sidious power ''growing''. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia confirms that when Sidious killed Plagueis, he grew too.

There's absolutely zero proof that Maul grew more than Sidious did.


Originally posted by Arhael
When exactly Opress cannot see Sidious? He was fast enough to block all Sidious' saber attacks and lost due to kicks, which he have always had hard time defending against.
This only backs up my argument. Opress has no speed feats suggesting that he is faster than TPM Maul, and Sidious was far faster than TPM Maul.

Originally posted by Arhael
These are your conclusions.
Please. If you want to say TCW Maul is faster than TPM Maul because he grew in power, I can just as easily turn that around and say the same for Sidious.

Originally posted by Arhael
TFiloni took the moves from fight with Windu and expended on it. If anything, Sidious demonstrated better performance against brothers than Windu.
Point?

Originally posted by Intrepid37 Plagueis mentions that he can feel Sidious power ''growing''. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia confirms that when Sidious killed Plagueis, he grew too.

There's absolutely zero proof that Maul grew more than Sidious did.

The proof is Maul's performance against Sidious in TCW. Your assumption that Sidious did not fight at full speed has zero evidence.


No, it doesn't. Opress was fast enough to blitz a master and padawan before training with Dooku. Dooku failed to blitz Opress and had to rely on Force attacks. Opress was driving back both Kenobi and Anakin. And Anakin is considered to be the fastest Jedi in the Order by Windu.



It's irrelevant really. You rely on a faster than eye could see quote, which doesn't actually prove that there is significant speed difference. Bane was attacked by a Jedi faster than the eye could see, yet, in the same fight he was able to fight the same Jedi and two more opponents simultaneously.

For Anakin fight between Windu and Sidious is faster than eye could see. Yet, Anakin is given level 9 combat prowess along Yoda, Sidious and Windu.


That Sidious fought at the same speed as against Windu.

Originally posted by Arhael
The proof is Maul's performance against Sidious in TCW. Your assumption that Sidious did not fight at full speed has zero evidence.


You need to prove that TCW Maul is faster than TPM Maul in order for your argument to work.




Originally posted by Arhael
No, it doesn't. Opress was fast enough to blitz a master and padawan before training with Dooku.
Link?

Originally posted by Arhael
Dooku failed to blitz Opress and had to rely on Force attacks. Opress was driving back both Kenobi and Anakin.
So? Dooku isn't as fast as Sidious.

Originally posted by Arhael
And Anakin is considered to be the fastest Jedi in the Order by Windu.
No.

Originally posted by Arhael
which doesn't actually prove that there is significant speed difference.


How isn't it a ''significant'' speed difference? Maul's eyes couldn't track the blade, couldn't even see it.

Originally posted by Arhael
Bane was attacked by a Jedi faster than the eye could see, yet, in the same fight he was able to fight the same Jedi and two more opponents simultaneously.
Quote?

Originally posted by Arhael
For Anakin fight between Windu and Sidious is faster than eye could see.
Non canon.

Originally posted by Arhael
That Sidious fought at the same speed as against Windu.
Not really. If you refer to Filoni's statement, he just says that they wanted to build upon Sidious' acrobatics .

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You need to prove that TCW Maul is faster than TPM Maul in order for your argument to work.

That's not provable. Neither is provable that he didn't get faster.

Anyway, I can try.

"The rage rockets within me, pumping energy into my muscles. I can do anything. I can kill my Master. I want to kill him. My hatred is so huge it blots everything else but my desire for his blood.

With a howl torn from the depths of my belly, I spring at him. He barely misses the first blow from my lightsaber, for even in my rage I have employed strategy, coming at him from below, hoping to rip him in two.

He parries my next blow. Sweat stings my eyes as I move across the rough cave floor. I do not stumble. I am nothing but the pulse of my anger, pure energy, pure darkness. I streak across the cave floor and come at him again, somersaulting through the air. My lightsaber whirls in the darkness. When he parries the blow, he staggers.

I am going to kill him. Every beat of my blood exults in my power. Every blow I deliver is meant to be the killing blow. I use reserves of strength I did not know I had. My blows are sure and precise, my footwork flawless. I gather in the power of the dark side. I feel my power clash with his. The air is thick, charged with our dark, titanic powers.

He parries every blow. But I see that he has to work hard to keep me at bay. Triumph roars through me at my Master's weakness. He is not as powerful as he appears.

"You want to kill me?" he taunts. "You want to kill your Master?"

"Yes, " I grunt.

"You hate me?"

"Yes!" I scream out the word through gritted teeth.

But I have been weakened by my ordeal, and my Master maneuvers me against the cave wall. I am gasping, trying to suck in enough air to keep going. My vision blurs as Lord Sidious raises his lightsaber. I parry the blow, but my lightsaber suddenly flies out of my hand, torn by the power of my Master directing the dark side. I realize then that he has just begun to tap into his own reserves. Mine are played out.

I will not be able to deflect the next blow. It will rend me in two. In a blur of heat and pain I see the mighty power of my Master raised against me, see the lightsaber come toward me, see my death as clearly as a bone-white moon in an ebony sky.

I lunge forward and sink my teeth into his hand. I strike like an animal, so quickly he doesn't have time to step away. I taste his blood and spit it back at him in contempt.

Yes, he will kill me. But I will die with his blood on my lips.

The lightsaber comes down. I wait for the pain and shock. I wait to die."


While the fight is solely from Maul's perspective it still leads to certain conclusions:

1. As Maul witnessed Sidious' "faster than the eye could see" performance before, he "logically" would have noticed, if Sidious was fighting slower than he normally did.

2. Reflexes of Force user are heightened, when they draw on the Force. In quote you provided Maul was scared and unwilling to fight, which means he did not use the Force to heighten his reflexes.

3. Sidious staggered during fight and wasn't fast enough to avoid getting bitten. But of course you can assume that Sidious did all of that deliberately.

4. This fight happened before Maul started learning double-bladed style. Sidious was impressed by Maul's performance, if Maul was far slower, that wouldn't make sense. Later his speed impressed even Plagues, again that wouldn't make sense, if he was far slower than Sidious.


75Ig6omZ4iY


Isn't he? Attack of the clone makes it clear that his speed is equal to Yoda's. Otherwise how would he be able to keep up with Anakin who is the fastest Jedi in the mythos, while attacked by Kenobi at the same time?


Anakin is the most powerful and capable Jedi in the mythos. Speed depends on capabilities. Anakin is the most capable, tallented and trained combat for over decade. Windu's statement that he is the fastest makes sense and he is in a better position to judge than you.


Jedi can't track blaster bolts or shatter guns, yet, still fast enough to anticipate and counter. For Windu attacks of Kar Vastar were blinding fast, yet, Windu was still faster.


Just checked it, it's not from Bane's perspective...


Doesn't matter. Anakin was a passive observer as was Maul, when Sidious attacked him. During actual combat Maul uses the Force to heighten his reflexes.


Can you notice any speed difference between two fights? I can't. Of course you can assume that the fight is slowed down for viewers but such assumption has no real basis.

Also, Sidious' performance is described as "whirlwind of destruction", wouldn't make sense, if Sidious held back.

Originally posted by Arhael
1. As Maul witnessed Sidious' "faster than the eye could see" performance before, he "logically" would have noticed, if Sidious was fighting slower than he normally did.
Not really. Maul doesn't need to outright mention how Sidious is toying with him.

Originally posted by Arhael
2. Reflexes of Force user are heightened, when they draw on the Force. In quote you provided Maul was scared and unwilling to fight, which means he did not use the Force to heighten his reflexes.
He wasn't ''unwilling to fight''. He was pumped after having destroyed assassin droids.

Originally posted by Arhael
3. Sidious staggered during fight and wasn't fast enough to avoid getting bitten. But of course you can assume that Sidious did all of that deliberately.
The fight does not qualify as proof. Sidious never attacked, he just parried.

Besides:

"I stranded him on Hypori for a month without food and with only a horde of assassin droids for company. Then I returned to goad and challenge him. All things considered, he fought well, even after I deprived him of his lightsaber. He wanted to kill me, but was prepared to die at my hand."

Plagueis turned fully to face him. "Rather than punish him for disobedience, you praised his resolve."

"He was already humbled. I chose to leave his honor intact. I proclaimed him my myrmidon; the embodiment of the violent half of our partnership."

"Partnership?" Plagueis repeated harshly.

"His and mine; not ours."

"Regardless, you allowed him to believe that he is more skilled than he actually is."

"Did you not do the same for me?"

Plagueis's eyes reflected disappointment. "Never, Sidious. I have always been truthful with you."

Sidious bowed his head in acknowledgment. "I am not the teacher you are."


Originally posted by Arhael
4. This fight happened before Maul started learning double-bladed style.
False. In Entry 1, Maul explains how he ''powers up his double-bladed lightsaber and practice maneuvers''. The quote I provided comes from Entry 2.

Originally posted by Arhael
Sidious was impressed by Maul's performance, if Maul was far slower, that wouldn't make sense.
As proven, Sidious made him think he was better than he was.

Originally posted by Arhael
Later his speed impressed even Plagues, again that wouldn't make sense, if he was far slower than Sidious.
Quote?

Originally posted by Arhael
75Ig6omZ4iY
He doesn't blitz him.

Originally posted by Arhael
Isn't he? Attack of the clone makes it clear that his speed is equal to Yoda's.
Not really. Dark Rendezvous mentions that the ''green blade burned hotter'' indicating Yoda was faster than Dooku on Vjun.

Originally posted by Arhael
Otherwise how would he be able to keep up with Anakin who is the fastest Jedi in the mythos, while attacked by Kenobi at the same time?
Anakin isn't the fastest Jedi in the mythos. He is stated to be the ''fastest of his generation, perhaps of any generation''.

Originally posted by Arhael
Anakin is the most powerful and capable Jedi in the mythos. Speed depends on capabilities. Anakin is the most capable, tallented and trained combat for over decade. Windu's statement that he is the fastest makes sense and he is in a better position to judge than you.
Mace has never stated that Anakin is the fastest. He simply says thhat he is ''arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he's still getting stronger''.

Originally posted by Arhael
Jedi can't track blaster bolts or shatter guns, yet, still fast enough to anticipate and counter.
Jedi have been able to see starships/shuttles in slow-motion.

Originally posted by Arhael
For Windu attacks of Kar Vastar were blinding fast, yet, Windu was still faster.
Quote?

Either way, this does not qualify. It only shows that Mace and Vastar are close in speed.

Originally posted by Arhael
Just checked it, it's not from Bane's perspective...
Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Arhael
Doesn't matter. Anakin was a passive observer as was Maul, when Sidious attacked him. During actual combat Maul uses the Force to heighten his reflexes.
You simply can't use this argument: Anakin never sees Sidious fighting Mace and thus cannot judge his speed.


Originally posted by Arhael
Can you notice any speed difference between two fights? I can't. Of course you can assume that the fight is slowed down for viewers but such assumption has no real basis.
In-movie explanations are not usable.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, Sidious' performance is described as "whirlwind of destruction", wouldn't make sense, if Sidious held back.
That description is baseless. He might as well be a ''whirlwind of destruction'' while holding back his speed.

Team 2 FTW.

Kenobi is all about dragging out the fight. And while Mace or Dooku will likely be able to defeat him in a duel it will take away.

Actually, TCW Maul is likely faster than TPM Maul. During his and Savage's fight against Sidious, Maul muses that despite his increase in power since TPM, Sidious was still able to counter all his attacks. And it wouldn't make any sense if Maul was referring to his other force powers since he was relying on his blade to fight Sidious.

Other than that, I agree with you, Intrepid. The fact that Sidious blitzed two masters before they were able to react, and then Fisto seconds later while simultaneously crossing blades with Windu, makes it quite clear that Sidious wasn't fighting the brothers his fastest, considering that Maul and Savage are not too much faster than the likes of Fisto (well Savage isn't for sure). Fisto and Kenobi, based on their respective performances against Grievous, suggest that they are very much comparable in sheer speed, and there is not a huge speed difference between Obi Wan and the brothers (though I'd argue that Maul is faster than Kenobi, but it might not be by much). Furthermore, when we compare Sidious performance against Mace & the 3 other jedi to his performance against Maul and Savage, his demeanor was completely different: he was far more relaxed during his duel with the brothers, and was not nearly as aggressive. Then we have Filoni outright confirming that Sidious was enjoying his fight with the brothers, which seems to imply that Sidious was savoring his superiority over the brothers by prolonging the fight, as it would make sense that he would want to prolong his enjoyment, and based on Sidious character, that's usually what he does. Plus, Sidious wasn't even trying to kill Maul at all, so obviously, Sidious wouldn't be fighting his hardest or drawing on the force as heavily to enhance his speed because he would be trying to avoid delivering a fatal blow to Maul with his saber.

Intrepid, after many prolong debates with Arhael, I've come to the conclusion that debating with him is a waste of time. He never admits when he is wrong.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That description is baseless. He might as well be a ''whirlwind of destruction'' while holding back his speed.


True. The hyperbolic statement "whirlwind of destruction" has no bearing on how much effort Sidious put forth to defeat the brothers. Relying on that term in order to try to prove that Sidious was not holding back, is a very desperate argument. There is just far too much evidents to suggest that Sidious was not fighting the brothers his hardest.

Like I said, Arhael just likes to argue. He will argue that the force does not drastically enhance a force users speed. Well if it didn't, then Yoda shouldn't be able to fight faster than the majority of force users, given that he can't even walk fast when he is not enhancing himself with the force.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Actually, TCW Maul is likely faster than TPM Maul. During his and Savage's fight against Sidious, Maul muses that despite his increase in power since TPM, Sidious was still able to counter all his attacks. And it wouldn't make any sense if Maul was referring to his other force powers since he was relying on his blade to fight Sidious.
Maul muses that, through his new power, he has become a ''more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power.''

This to me suggests that he's grown in the force (he also muses that he has grown through Talzin's resturation, so that makes sense).

Maul, in his journal, has some very good speed feats. He mentions that, in a short span of time, he has delivered ten thousands blows, he moves faster than his opponent can blink, he spins in a blur, he can take out four or five Tusken Raider in the span of an eyelash, he is faster than light, his blade is a blur of red etc.

All this is, if anything, above anything Kenobi's done.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Intrepid, after many prolong debates with Arhael, I've come to the conclusion that debating with him is a waste of time. He never admits when he is wrong.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Like I said, Arhael just likes to argue. He will argue that the force does not drastically enhance a force users speed. Well if it didn't, then Yoda shouldn't be able to fight faster than the majority of force users, given that he can't even walk fast when he is not enhancing himself with the force.
lol

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Maul muses that, through his new power, he has become a ''more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power.''

This to me suggests that he's grown in the force (he also muses that he has grown through Talzin's resturation, so that makes sense).


Do you have the full quote? It seemed to me that his thoughts were referring to his force enhanced physical combat ability, since that is what he was relying on to fight Sidious with, otherwise it wouldn't make much sense for him to apply his musing to his fight with Sidious.

And yes, it does suggest that he's grown in the force, and since he is trained to enhance his speed with the force, then logically, after his increase in power, he would have more power to enhance his speed with.

And I agree that Maul is faster than Kenobi, but not by much.

It is the full quote. The next sentence is this:

But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious.

If I recall correctly, Maul then mentions how the force was effortlessly flowing through Sidious, and how he could foresee their moves before it happened.

So to me, the context of Maul's musings seem to indicate his force enhance physicality/combat prowess.

He does, and you might be right. But it could be about his boost in force power, considering he feels a ''terrible pleasure'' while he and Opress saber-locked with Sidious (at this point, they had hardly fought each other).

Either way, even if you want to argue that CW Maul is faster than TPM Maul, it in no way supports Arheal's argument considering that Sidious is confirmed to grow in power too.

The "terrible pleasure" from the text was Sidious's, not Maul's.

I know.

Also, gonna respond in the Mace v Dooku thread?

He was unwilling to fight. Sidious caught him off guard, he shitted himself.


He was defending and was barely fast enough to avoid attacks. And he failed to avoid getting bitten.

Regardless, Sidious was attacking Maul in TCW and wasn't fast enough to outduel him or avoid getting kicked.


In the part I highlighted Sidious himself praises Maul. In part you highlighted Plagueis makes judgement despite the fact that he did not witnes the fight and is in no position to make such judgement.


Plagueis spent a long moment observing the holorecording. The Zabrak's fists and legs were as lethal as his lightsaber, and his speed was astounding.


He dodges 3 attacks and disarms him. And he finished the fight with a combo to which the Jedi failed to react. That demonstrates far superior speed and reaction. For an unarmed and untrained Force user that's even more impressive. If it is not how you define "blitz", sorry.


That's not indication of speed. However, them evenly exchanging blows in the film is.


Agree, Luke might be as fast due to heritage. Or Yoda might be faster due to diminutive size. Can't tell the same about Sidious though.


Sorry, my mistake. It wasn't Windu's statement, it was author's narative from RotS novel:
"This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it".

I hope now you realise that it is absurd to claim that Sidious can blitz Kenobi, when even Anakin couldn't.


Proof?


And even hurt, lurching drunkenly, "Vaster still could whip his arms in blindingly fast raking slaps at Mace's head and wounded neck. But where Vastor's speed was blinding, Mace's was invisible. Not one of those slaps connected."

Eye perception might not be fast enough to properly see attacks. But it is obvious that Jedi have anticipation and can counter an attack regardless of speed.


That is a good example of how an author hyperballically glorifies the speed of a given character. It is still a c-canon and it is still the same character. There is no difference from the example you provided except the fact that Anakin is the fastest Jedi of his generation.

Also, courtesy of S66, he claimed that Sidious slew masters faster than Windu could react and even backed it up by a quote from an encyclopaedia.


Indeed. But it is not about explanation, it is about demonstration. Sidious demonstrated the same speed as in film as well as far greater variety of techniques.


Except it woudn't make sense. Your assumption is baseless according to all Filoni's statements. He wanted to show why Sidious is the master. If Filoni portrayed holding back Sidious, we would still be clueless why he is the master.

Claiming that Sidious holds back on speed against both brothers, while Dooku wasn't fast enough to out-duel Opress alone is a blatant over-hyping.

Originally posted by Arhael
Except it woudn't make sense. Your assumption is baseless according to all Filoni's statements. He wanted to show why Sidious is the master. If Filoni portrayed holding back Sidious, we would still be clueless why he is the master.


lmao

Seriously, Arhael?

Yoda's slightly slower than Palpatine, but not enough that he cannot disarm him. Anakin's slower than Palpatine as well, as he couldn't see him, yet he could perceive the shadow in the force. Mace only fought as fast as Palpatine for that one duel ( the novelization is written by the same author who wrote shatterpoint, so it's not like he didn't know his own character )

Yoda is slower than Sidious? Based on what?

Oh no, not this again..

Originally posted by Intrepid37

There's absolutely zero proof that Maul grew more than Sidious did.




Point is when they fought in TCW they both had a different power set. You can't just assume that they both increased in power and speed by the exact same %.

So Arhael's point is that the fight we saw in "The Lawless" was the best way to judge how they compare to each other, and not hypothetical assumptions on how much each should have/could have improved in speed since TPM days.

But if I were to guess I would say Maul improved more, due to his massive rage increase. I wouldn't think Sidious improved a whole lot since becoming Supreme Chancellor of the Galaxy.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Point is when they fought in TCW they both had a different power set. You can't just assume that they both increased in power and speed by the exact same %.
Right. So why even assume it? Why not use the speed difference between them that has been shown?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So Arhael's point is that the fight we saw in "The Lawless" was the best way to judge how they compare to each other, and not hypothetical assumptions on how much each should have/could have improved in speed since TPM days.
It's not the ''best way to judge how they compare to each other'' considering I have already proven Maul can't even see Sidious.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But if I were to guess I would say Maul improved more, due to his massive rage increase. I wouldn't think Sidious improved a whole lot since becoming Supreme Chancellor of the Galaxy.
What you guess isn't good enough. Plagueis muses in the middle of the book that he can feel Sidious' power growing. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia confirms that Sidious yet again grew in power after Plagueis was slain.

Either assume that neither grew in speed, or that they both grew equally much.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I know.

Also, gonna respond in the Mace v Dooku thread?

Probably not. Your response was excellent and we seem to be on the same page.

Alright.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Right. So why even assume it? Why not use the speed difference between them that has been shown?

We are. The speed difference that was shown in their fight in TCW is the most credible source.


Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's not the ''best way to judge how they compare to each other'' considering I have already proven Maul can't even see Sidious.

Without getting into the fact that Jedi clearly don't have invisible Flash type speed, you forget that a Jedi/Sith doesn't need to see what they're fighting to fight them. Unless you think Jedi really see every blaster shot that comes their way. And unless you think Sidious is faster than a Blaster shot.


Originally posted by Intrepid37
What you guess isn't good enough. Plagueis muses in the middle of the book that he can feel Sidious' power growing. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia confirms that Sidious yet again grew in power after Plagueis was slain.

Yeah and by how much? And for how long was he growing in power? It's all speculation.

TCW Maul and Sidious have different power sets. So you can't use TPM time period to prove Maul would get blitzed by Sidious, especially when T-Canon shows otherwise.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Either assume that neither grew in speed, or that they both grew equally much.

That's a bit silly. We don't know who grew more. The best way to judge is their fight in TCW.

Plagueis already ran faster than a blaster bolt.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
We are. The speed difference that was shown in their fight in TCW is the most credible source.
It isn't.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
TCW Maul and Sidious have different power sets. So you can't use TPM time period to prove Maul would get blitzed by Sidious, especially when T-Canon shows otherwise.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's a bit silly. We don't know who grew more. The best way to judge is their fight in TCW.
Listen. You can easily argue that Maul grew more (fanboyish, lacks proof) as easily as I can argue that Sidious grew more (also fanboyish, lacks proof).

It is only fair to both parties to speculate that they would grow equally or not grow at all.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah and by how much? And for how long was he growing in power? It's all speculation.
Sidious knew that his own powers had increased tenfold over the decades, but he couldn't be certain he had learned all of Plagueis's secrets-"his sorcerer's ways," as the Sun Guards referred to them-including the ability to prevent beings from dying.

This is before he kills Plagueis.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
you forget that a Jedi/Sith doesn't need to see what they're fighting to fight them.
True to an extent, but it is clear that it only took a ''flinch, one twitch of a muscle'' for Maul to die.

Originally posted by Intrepid37



Listen. You can easily argue that Maul grew more (fanboyish, lacks proof) as easily as I can argue that Sidious grew more (also fanboyish, lacks proof).

It is only fair to both parties to speculate that they would grow equally or not grow at all.

Since there's no way at all to know that it's much more fair to put all biases aside and judge from their CW fight.



Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious knew that his own powers had increased tenfold over the decades, but he couldn't be certain he had learned all of Plagueis's secrets-"his sorcerer's ways," as the Sun Guards referred to them-including the ability to prevent beings from dying.

This is before he kills Plagueis.

Which is after Maul saw him as invisible right? Where's the evidence Sidious became significantly more powerful after that?

It seems unlikely considering he was rarely even in combat over the next 10 years.

Originally posted by Intrepid37



True to an extent, but it is clear that it only took a ''flinch, one twitch of a muscle'' for Maul to die.

Not TCW Maul. Even on Hypori Maul did show sufficient speed to fight Sidious (while in a rage).

Speed that was clearly praised by Plagueis.

The facts are these.... Kenobi has many feats that show he wouldn't be blitzed right away by Sids... He's countered and disarmed (2limbs) of somebody using 20 strikes per second. Speed hasn't been shwon to overwhlem him yet. Shit, even when he's fighting two foes at the same time. Anyways, Sids isn't in this match and I don't think Mace or Dooku couldn't overwhelm him before let's say Yoda could beat Dooku.

KT I seem to remember you agreeing that Sids took it easy on Maul and Opress. In which case you should agree that Sids would Blitz Kenobi.

Because IF he can do it to Maul and Opress then there's no way Kenobi would do any better.

Of course I don't think he was "slowing down" when fighting Maul and Opress, but you should make up your mind on the matter instead of switching stances when it suits you.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The holorecording... if it's the holorecording where Maul fights Sidious, it is not valid: of course Maul's gonna look impressive when he's able to react to Sidious' blows.


No, he didn't see Maul's duel with Sidious. Plagueis was impressed by Maul's performance against the droids. And as fast and impressive as he found Darth Maul to be, he still did not think he was good enough to put up a fight against Sidious, otherwise he wouldn't have made the comment about Sidious allowing Maul to believe that he was more skilled than he actually was.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not really. You simply cannot dismiss the speed difference shown in the Maul's journal. Arheal made a honorable attempt at proving me wrong by noting out time timeline in which this was done, but the same goes for Sidious. I have proven Sidious is too fast for Maul to even see.

Does Sidious move faster than a Blaster Bolt? If not there's no reason to assume Maul can not react to him.

Fact is we have 7 Star Wars films now and an animated series. And at no point in all of higher canon is any Jedi or Sith been shown to be too fast to even see. Especially not by other Jedi/Sith.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This alone suggests that he held back enormously during his fight against the brother. What you need to prove is that Maul has improved drastically more than Sidious in terms of speed: from the point where he is too slow to even see Sidious to the point where he can fight at the same speed level as Sidious.

Not really. Even if what you prove is true within the context of TPM time and in the context of C-Canon. Even that is not enough to overwrite a fight shown in T-Canon which takes place 10 years later in continuity.

Especially when we have the Supervising Director of that show flat out confirm that Savage Opress put up a better fight against Sidious than the 3 Council members who Sidious blitzed. Given that your going have to give much better evidence that Sidious can blitzed Maul within a second.



Originally posted by Intrepid37
The quote I provided was early in Plagueis. Later, when he kills Plagueis, he does so ''upon gaining the skill and ability to do so'' (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia).




Right so where your proof that Sidious's combat abilities improved at all since TPM? We canonically know that Maul's did.

Originally posted by Intrepid37


As for when Maul gets enraged, it is clearly power he had never felt before:

As was the power he felt in TCW time period.


Originally posted by Intrepid37
Even then, he still only sees Sidious as a blur:



Sidious was confirmed in the Dark Side source book to have "barely deflected his blows" once Maul was in a rage enhanced state.

Not to mention you seem to be ignoring that this whole fight took place after Maul had been fighting and starving for days. Or was it weeks?

Damn,Intrepid 37....Impressive...Most impressive...
Your debate was honorable...All I can say is good job!!!
I agree with your views.

Everyone did great..
Intrepid 37 I'm speechless,well done,...

I agree,Savage did do better than those masters.
Maul was starving and fighting for weeks.
I do remember reading that.

Which still made the test that much exciting to read.
IMO,Maul did grew in power,but Sidious taught Maul everything he knows.
You have to admit he didn't teach Maul everything he knew.

Sidious (imo) only grew in Power when he executed Order 66 and the Jedi Purge.
IMO Sidious was at a level where Maul wasn't quite there yet due to his mechanical lower half.
But hey this the dark side where things were considered un-natural due to Alchemy and Sorcery.

This is Star Wars and The Force anything can happen...

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The only thing you're doing is adding your opinion onto the quote which states no such thing.

Against your opinion that Maul is not as fast due to perception.


lol
Nice try. The text continues with Maul getting angrier and angrier and then:

I spring at him. He barely misses the first blow from my lightsaber, for even in my rage I have employed strategy, coming at him from below, hoping to rip him in two.


The only thing that is painfully obvious is that you have different opinion.


You expect a Sith to admit he nearly died?


Plagueis was observing Maul fighting droids...


That Opress fast enough not to get blitzed by anyone.


It doesn't. First quote might, also, suggest outskilling/overpowering/driving back.

Second quote is non-canon. Dooku in film did not make a single step back, they evenly exchanged blows circling around each other with Dooku finishing on the offensive.


Dooku is not faster than Kenobi. Skywalker is the fastest Jedi of his generation, which is author's narration. If Kenobi doesn't get blitzed by someone who is faster than Yoda, he cannot be blitzed by anyone.


First quote. Tie Fighers are much easier to see in space than blaster bolts. Han Solo could even see canon fire and dodge it because of thousand kilometers distance.

As of second quote. Jedi achieve it by anticipation. They know in advance what action to take. It's ridiculous to assume that they have reaction/perception faster than sub-light speed.


Vastor's attacks were blinding fast for Windu, which means he couldn't percept them properly just like Maul couldn't - Sidious.


Luckily the argument here is about Kenobi who didn't get blitzed by the fastest Jedi in the Order. Also, lets not forget about the fact that Kit Fisto didn't get blitzed, you gonna claim he is faster than Kenobi?



My point is that you assume too much from a quote, where Maul is not even fighting Sidious.


No, he didn't.


Character cannot dominate, if he holds back.


Nowhere Dooku is confirmed to be faster than Kenobi. Dodging Opress does not suggest he is faster. It's a matter of skill. Ventress demonstrated even more impressive dodging against Opress, yet, when she had lightsaber, she got an elbow in the back of her scull.
Also, when Sidious tried to pierce Maul's abdomen on at least two occasions, Maul dodged it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER



Sidious was confirmed in the Dark Side source book to have "barely deflected his blows" once Maul was in a rage enhanced state.

Not to mention you seem to be ignoring that this whole fight took place after Maul had been fighting and starving for days. Or was it weeks?
Nice one. Thanks.

Here is the quote itself:

Anger and hatred welled up in Maul, and he
drew renewed strength from the dark side. Hurling
himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his
master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows.
Sidious barely deflected them all. Eventually Maul
spent his fury, and Darth Sidious still stood.

Author's narration, sourcebook. Perfect.

ermm

According to whom?

The Sith (Rule of Two) held back and dominated....
Certain Sith Lords master and employ Dun Moch....which does the same thing.

Point?

I can dominate Tempest sexually my 10 year old nephew sexually physically while still holding back.

For future reference, The Clone Wars Episode Guide by Jason Fry confirms Sidious is a master of all lightsaber forms btw.

Sidious is undoubtedly a master swordsman given that Windu had significant trouble with him.

It was the other way around Sidious had significant trouble with Mace.
Mace is also a master of Lightsaber combat and a master swordsman.
Mace beat Sidious....

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Does Sidious move faster than a Blaster Bolt? If not there's no reason to assume Maul can not react to him.
In Plagueis Sidious deflects blasterbolts from an army, if I recall correctly.

Plagueis also moved as a blur for a droid that is able to dodge blasterbolts, and Sidious has moved at same speed as Plagueis.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Fact is we have 7 Star Wars films now and an animated series. And at no point in all of higher canon is any Jedi or Sith been shown to be too fast to even see. Especially not by other Jedi/Sith.
This is completely irrelevant. There are only two beings in the movies/CW, Yoda and Sidious, that have the speed to blitz. Yoda has fought Dooku twice and Sidious once, all of them who are fast enough not to get blitzed.

Sidious has fought the brothers and Yoda.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not really. Even if what you prove is true within the context of TPM time and in the context of C-Canon. Even that is not enough to overwrite a fight shown in T-Canon which takes place 10 years later in continuity.
It doesn't overwrite it, it adds onto it.

Really, you simply can't refer to the fight in TCW and use that as proof that the brothers have enough speed to contend with Sidious. It is ambiguous to only use the visual fight in TCW. You must prove that Sidious did not hold back immensly: prove to me a single time when Maul has been able to see Sidious when Sidious was not holding back.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Especially when we have the Supervising Director of that show flat out confirm that Savage Opress put up a better fight against Sidious than the 3 Council members who Sidious blitzed. Given that your going have to give much better evidence that Sidious can blitzed Maul within a second.


What does this have to do with anything?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Right so where your proof that Sidious's combat abilities improved at all since TPM? We canonically know that Maul's did.
The quote from the Encyclopedia. Plagueis dies shortly after Maul does.

Also, TPM Sidious=RotS Sidious?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
As was the power he felt in TCW time period.
If you want to use CW Maul's boost in power as a comparison to the rage boost Maul felt on Hypori, do you also agree that Maul can only see Sidious as a blur?

Which also suggests Sidious held back.




Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Sidious was confirmed in the Dark Side source book to have "barely deflected his blows" once Maul was in a rage enhanced state.
After making him think he was better than he actually was.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not to mention you seem to be ignoring that this whole fight took place after Maul had been fighting and starving for days. Or was it weeks?
Really, I wasn't the one who brought up this fight, so I couldn't care less how long he had been starving.

Originally posted by Arhael
Against your opinion that Maul is not as fast due to perception.
It's not against my opinion, it's against the quote.


Originally posted by Arhael
lol
Nice try. The text continues with Maul getting angrier and angrier and then:

I spring at him. He barely misses the first blow from my lightsaber, for even in my rage I have employed strategy, coming at him from below, hoping to rip him in two.
Yet he only sees Sidious' saber as a blur.

Originally posted by Arhael
The only thing that is painfully obvious is that you have different opinion.
Backed up with logic.

Originally posted by Arhael
You expect a Sith to admit he nearly died?
He needed only to ''no I did not''. It's that easy.


Originally posted by Arhael
Plagueis was observing Maul fighting droids...
Maul looking impressive against droids is enough for him to contend with Sidious? Especially when Plagueis himself muses that Sidious took it easy?

Originally posted by Arhael
That Opress fast enough not to get blitzed by anyone.
Jango Fett als fought ''evenly'' with Kenobi in AotC. What, now Sidious won't blitz him?

Fast =/= Fast enough not to get blitzed.

Originally posted by Arhael
It doesn't. First quote might, also, suggest outskilling/overpowering/driving back.
Oh please.

The text specifically notes that their blades clashed together in ''a lace of fire'', and that the green one burned hotter.

It is quite obvious.

Originally posted by Arhael
Second quote is non-canon. Dooku in film did not make a single step back, they evenly exchanged blows circling around each other with Dooku finishing on the offensive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ_eu5BxAsU

About 1:45 and again 1:58.

Originally posted by Arhael
Dooku is not faster than Kenobi.
The two droids fired at Obi-Wan, but he batted their fired energy bolts back at them and cut them down as he moved fast for Dooku. Unfortunately, Dooku moved faster, extending his left hand toward Obi-Wan as he used the Force to lift the Jedi off his feet while at the same time constricting his throat.

Originally posted by Arhael
Skywalker is the fastest Jedi of his generation, which is author's narration. If Kenobi doesn't get blitzed by someone who is faster than Yoda, he cannot be blitzed by anyone.
Yoda isn't a part of Skywalkers generation.

Yoda is faster than Anakin:

With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance. Dooku

Originally posted by Arhael
It's ridiculous to assume that they have reaction/perception faster than sub-light speed.
Maybe, but it's there.

Originally posted by Arhael
Vastor's attacks were blinding fast for Windu, which means he couldn't percept them properly just like Maul couldn't - Sidious.
This argument doesn't work because Mace actually is faster than Vastor, unlike Maul who isn't faster than Sidious.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, lets not forget about the fact that Kit Fisto didn't get blitzed, you gonna claim he is faster than Kenobi?
No, but an equally fast one? He has destroyed Magnaguards (who has reflexes near lightspeed) and has tangoed with Grievous just as well as Kenobi.


Originally posted by Arhael
My point is that you assume too much from a quote, where Maul is not even fighting Sidious.
I don't.

Originally posted by Arhael
No, he didn't.
Right, prove he was as fast against Windu as he was Maul/Opress.

Originally posted by Arhael
Character cannot dominate, if he holds back.
lol

According to you?


Originally posted by Arhael
Nowhere Dooku is confirmed to be faster than Kenobi.
He is.

Originally posted by Arhael
Dodging Opress does not suggest he is faster. It's a matter of skill. Ventress demonstrated even more impressive dodging against Opress, yet, when she had lightsaber, she got an elbow in the back of her scull.
Nah. Dooku is already faster than Kenobi who is an equal (or so) to Opress in terms of speed.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, when Sidious tried to pierce Maul's abdomen on at least two occasions, Maul dodged it.
Using the TCW fight isn't a valid source, bud.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
In Plagueis Sidious deflects blasterbolts from an army, if I recall correctly.

Plagueis also moved as a blur for a droid that is able to dodge blasterbolts, and Sidious has moved at same speed as Plagueis.

Oh he moved like a blur? You mean like Kenobi and Qui-Gon did in the opening scene of TPM?

Point is yes Jedi and Sith can move fast. But they don't move faster than blaster bolts, and not properly perceiving with their eyes has never stopped them reacting.

You only have to go to Luke's training in the Original Star Wars to understand that. "Your eye can deceive you. Don't trust them."


Originally posted by Intrepid37
This is completely irrelevant. There are only two beings in the movies/CW, Yoda and Sidious, that have the speed to blitz. Yoda has fought Dooku twice and Sidious once, all of them who are fast enough not to get blitzed.

Sidious has fought the brothers and Yoda.

The fact that Yoda didn't blitzed Dooku and Sidious didin't blitzed Mace and Dooku didn't blitzed Kenobi, and Sidious didn't blitzed the Maul bros, just shows that the more powerful Jedi/Sith are not just going to be speed blitzed.

Let alone Maul and Opress simultaneously.



Originally posted by Intrepid37
It doesn't overwrite it, it adds onto it.

Really, you simply can't refer to the fight in TCW and use that as proof that the brothers have enough speed to contend with Sidious. It is ambiguous to only use the visual fight in TCW. You must prove that Sidious did not hold back immensly: prove to me a single time when Maul has been able to see Sidious when Sidious was not holding back.

Well you've got that the wrong way around completely.

It's not up to me to prove Sidious wasn't immensely holding back. It's up to you to prove it. Of course I can refer to TCW fight as my primary source. It was a fight that took place in a much higher form of canon, and showing the characters at a completely different point in time with different power sets.

You can't just ignore that because Maul saw Sidious as a blur one time.






Originally posted by Intrepid37
The quote from the Encyclopedia. Plagueis dies shortly after Maul does.

Also, TPM Sidious=RotS Sidious?



Yeah so wheres your evidence Sidious became more combat effective since TPM like we know Maul did?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
If you want to use CW Maul's boost in power as a comparison to the rage boost Maul felt on Hypori, do you also agree that Maul can only see Sidious as a blur?

What does that matter when that Sidious was barely deflecting Maul's attacks himself at that point?



Originally posted by Intrepid37
Which also suggests Sidious held back.

Theres nothing connecting the 2 incidents. The fight we saw was the higher form of canon. And the supervising directors words don't suggest at all that Sidious was holding back. Quite the opposite.





Originally posted by Intrepid37
After making him think he was better than he actually was.

Why because that's what he made out to Plageuis? Whom he was trying to convince Maul wasn't a Sith Apprentice..

That's not evidence.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Yet he only sees Sidious' saber as a blur.

To be fair, lightsabers appear as blurs in the movies as well, at regular person speeds. Glowing lightsticks blur by default when they move.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh he moved like a blur? You mean like Kenobi and Qui-Gon did in the opening scene of TPM?
For a droid that has the ability to scan blasterbolts, yes.

Don't even compare Qui-Gon Jinn to Plagueis in terms of speed. Plagueis would ultra-uber blitz him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and not properly perceiving with their eyes has never stopped them reacting.
Kolar and Tiin didn't manage to react.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You only have to go to Luke's training in the Original Star Wars to understand that. "Your eye can deceive you. Don't trust them."
Did he say this in reference to speed?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The fact that Yoda didn't blitzed Dooku and Sidious didin't blitzed Mace and Dooku didn't blitzed Kenobi, and Sidious didn't blitzed the Maul bros, just shows that the more powerful Jedi/Sith are not just going to be speed blitzed.
This means nothing. Dooku hasn't the ability to blitz, only Yoda and Sidious does.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well you've got that the wrong way around completely.

It's not up to me to prove Sidious wasn't immensely holding back. It's up to you to prove it. Of course I can refer to TCW fight as my primary source. It was a fight that took place in a much higher form of canon, and showing the characters at a completely different point in time with different power sets.
Not really. If Sidious is so fast Maul can't even see him, why were the brothers able to respond to Sidious' saber?

Conclusion A) Sidious held back
Conclusion B) Maul grew in power immensly more than Sidious, and apparantly Opress is faster than TPM Maul.

The latter has zero proof, ergo the former is correct.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah so wheres your evidence Sidious became more combat effective since TPM like we know Maul did?
There's no proof that Maul grew in speed.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What does that matter when that Sidious was barely deflecting Maul's attacks himself at that point?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Why because that's what he made out to Plageuis? Whom he was trying to convince Maul wasn't a Sith Apprentice..

That's not evidence.
Not sure why you use the fight as an example. Sidious held back. Never did he strike on Maul: he only defended himself. He reduced his speed so that Maul could see his movements: In the same book, on other instances, Maul weren't able to even see Sidious.

Despite his holding back, Sidious was still far too fast for Maul, this includes when Maul got his rage boost: he vanishes before Maul attacks and appears as a blur to Maul's eyes.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Theres nothing connecting the 2 incidents. The fight we saw was the higher form of canon. And the supervising directors words don't suggest at all that Sidious was holding back. Quite the opposite.
Canon class is irrelevant as the fights do not contradict each other in any way.

And really, Filoni suggests nothing.

Originally posted by Nephthys
To be fair, lightsabers appear as blurs in the movies as well, at regular person speeds. Glowing lightsticks blur by default when they move.
To the regular human, yes. But Maul, in Shadow Hunter easily moved five times as fast as a normal human could, he is faster than Qui-Gon Jinn who is able to move his blade so fast that it creates a shield, he moves in the time it takes for one to blink, etc.

That Maul, even when boosted by rage, is only able to see Sidious' saber as a blur, shows the extreme difference in terms of speed.

Originally posted by Intrepid37


There's no proof that Maul grew in speed.

There's clear proof Maul's combat abilities increased. Combat abilities include force enhanced strength and speed. In other words he got better. There's zero proof Sidious got better.

Originally posted by Intrepid37



Canon class is irrelevant as the fights do not contradict each other in any way.

And really, Filoni suggests nothing.

Of course there's a contradiction. You have to make a reason for the 2 fights to fit - "Sidious holding back." Your making up this reason when we already have another reason given to us - Maul improved.

Not to mention the fact that like Arhael pointed out, Sidious never did speed blitzed Maul in the first place. Maul saw Sidious's Saber as a blur? So? Mace also saw Sidious as a blur!

Stick more to canon explanations, and use less speculation.

Filoni suggests the Brothers simply performed better than the Jedi who got blitzed.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There's clear proof Maul's combat abilities increased. Combat abilities include force enhanced strength and speed. In other words he got better. There's zero proof Sidious got better.
There is not. In TCW, Maul shows improvement of his telekinetic abilities, but his showings of skill doesn't trumph TPM Maul.

Since when is growing in power = growing in everything? Likewise, there's absolutely no reason to assume that his physical strength has increased.

There's a reason why The Phantom Menace refers to Maul as a ''warrior in his prime, never to be any better.''

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course there's a contradiction. You have to make a reason for the 2 fights to fit - "Sidious holding back." Your making up this reason when we already have another reason given to us - Maul improved.
Thing is, you have no proof for your argument: I do for mine.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
(Not to mention the fact that like Arhael pointed out, Sidious never did speed blitzed Maul in the first place. Maul so Sidious's Saber as a blur? So? Mace also saw Vastor moving as a blur, despite the fact that Mace can move faster than him.)
Not comparable. Firstly, was Vastor's movements described as ''blindingly'' from Mace's point of view?

Even if it is, it doesn't matter. Vastor has the speed to which he can fight Mace equally: Maul, on the other hand, can only stand still and smell heat.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Stick more to canon explanations, and use less speculation.
I am speculating? No. You are speculating that Maul grew in speed when nothing suggests this. The fact that Sidious is too fast for Maul to even see isn't speculation, it's goddamn canon fact.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Filoni suggests the Brothers performed better than the Jedi who got blitzed.
He only mentioned this for Opress' part. Either way, this means nothing. Opress performing better than someone else is irrelevant. On that basis, AotC Kenobi's performance against Dooku is better than Ventress' performance alone in Witches of the Mist.

Thus, AotC Kenobi>Ventress.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
There is not. In TCW, Maul shows improvement of his telekinetic abilities, but his showings of skill doesn't trumph TPM Maul.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Thing is, you have no proof for your argument: I do for mine.


Originally posted by Intrepid37
Since when is growing in power = growing in everything? Likewise, there's absolutely no reason to assume that his physical strength has increased.


Originally posted by Intrepid37
I am speculating? No. You are speculating that Maul grew in speed when nothing suggests this. The fact that Sidious is too fast for Maul to even see isn't speculation, it's goddamn canon fact.

No you don't have proof. And it's certainly not fact. Just speculation about how Maul saw Sidious in another point in time when Maul was less powerful.

Anyway this is ridiculous. So we have to prove someone gets stronger/faster when they gain more power now?

So I would have to prove to you that ROTS Anakin is stronger/faster than AOTC Anakin? Or that ROTS Kenobi is stronger/faster than TPM Kenobi?

When does more power NOT lead a force user to be stronger and faster?

As for my proof:

Shadow conspiracy made it clear that when Maul is fighting Sidious, he's still in awe of how much Sidious is above him despite the fact that MAUL'S the one whose improved.

This makes it perfectly clear that his combat abilities have improved. I.e strength, speed.

/disussion.

Originally posted by Intrepid37


There's a reason why The Phantom Menace refers to Maul as a ''warrior in his prime, never to be any better.''

It was talking about his combat skill. Of course his strength and speed can increase over time as he gains more power in the Force.




Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not comparable. Firstly, was Vastor's movements described as ''blindingly'' from Mace's point of view?

Even if it is, it doesn't matter. Vastor has the speed to which he can fight Mace equally: Maul, on the other hand, can only stand still and smell heat.'

The whole passage was from Mace's perspective. As was Mace's fight with Sidious where he calls Sidious a Blur.

It's completely relevant. Because it shows just because he sees him as a blur, doesn't mean he can't fight him.

That's your own assumption/speculation.


Originally posted by Intrepid37



He only mentioned this for Opress' part.

LOL If Opress performed better then do you not think it's a no brainer that Maul who performed much better than Opress, also performed better than those Jedi?

Originally posted by Intrepid37

Either way, this means nothing. Opress performing better than someone else is irrelevant. On that basis, AotC Kenobi's performance against Dooku is better than Ventress' performance alone in Witches of the Mist.

Thus, AotC Kenobi>Ventress.

Are you kidding me?

Dooku completely stomped AOTC Kenobi in Sabers. Whilst he had to put visible effort in his fight against Ventress. And in the end actually only defeated her with Force TK/Lightning.

A better argument would be that Opress and Ventress seemed to put up a better fight than a superior duo - ROTS Kenobi and Skywalker (up until Skywalker went Uber).

But does that mean Dooku was playing around with Ventress and Opress? Of course not!

He was putting in effort, but it was just a different environment and context. It was a surprise Double Team up that Dooku wasn't expecting and in a relatively enclosed space, when Opress and Ventress attacked him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dooku completely stomped AOTC Kenobi in Sabers. Whilst he had to put visible effort in his fight against Ventress.


That's Intrepid's point: Sidious put absolutely no visible effort in his fight against the brothers; he wasn't real aggressive, he was more calm and relaxed. Then we have Filoni outright confirm that Sidious was enjoying himself during that fight, which implies he wasn't taking Maul and Savage seriously, nor did he find them as any kind of threat. Furthermore, as been brought out numerous of times, Sidious wasn't even trying to kill Maul, so blitzing him wouldn't even be an option. When Sidious slaughtered the 3 jedi masters in seconds, he was more blood lusted and was out to kill them as quick as possible so he could deal with Mace; he was far more aggressive during that fight.

This is why it's important to pay attention to the context of a fight, which is something you and Arhael have a habit of not doing. If we follow your guy's line of thinking, then AOTC Kenobi is better than Ventress, considering that Dooku was easily flooring her left and right, despite having to deal with Savage at the same time.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No you don't have proof. And it's certainly not fact. Just speculation about how Maul saw Sidious in another point in time when Maul was less powerfu
Oh please. This was before becoming powerful enough to kill Plagueis.

Further more, twice or so in Mauk's journal, he basically picks up Maul and slowly chokes him until he's at the brink of death. Considering he was handling a more powerful Maul + Opress at the same time through the force as casual as he did TPM Maul, is it not proof he improved?

It's ludicrous to assume that Maul grew when he's half spider but Sidious did not while having time to study the dark side.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anyway this is ridiculous. So we have to prove someone gets stronger/faster when they gain more power now?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So I would have to prove to you that ROTS Anakin is stronger/faster than AOTC Anakin? Or that ROTS Kenobi is stronger/faster than TPM Kenobi?
facepalm.jpg

AotC Anakin has practically covered himself in light. Has RotS Anakin ever replicated this feat?

TPM Kenobi moved his blade so fast it expanded into a shield. Has RotS Kenobi ever replicated this feat?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
When does more power NOT lead a force user to be stronger and faster?
Address the argument.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
As for my proof:

Shadow conspiracy made it clear that when Maul is fighting Sidious, he's still in awe of how much Sidious is above him despite the fact that MAUL'S the one whose improved.

This makes it perfectly clear that his combat abilities have improved. I.e strength, speed.

/disussion.

If you want to refer to Shadow Conspiracy, Maul, in the end, can only pick up afterimages of Sidious. :up]


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It was talking about his combat skill.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
This makes it perfectly clear that his combat abilities have improved. I.e strength, speed.

This is a nice double standard.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The whole passage was from Mace's perspective.
:ermm:

It's not:

Standing toe to toe, the top of Mace's head barely came to the level of Vastor's chin, and you could have tucked Mace's whole thick-muscled upper body inside Vastor's chest with room to spare. And even hurt, lurching drunkenly, Vaster still could whip his arms in blindingly fast raking slaps at Mace's head and wounded neck. But where Vastor's speed was blinding, Mace's was invisible. Not one of those slaps connected.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's completely relevant. Because it shows just because he sees him as a blur, doesn't mean he can't fight him.
He sees him as a blur when he got a boost and Sidious was holding back. When Maul wasn't given a boost and when Sidious did not hold back, Maul couldn't even see him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's your own assumption/speculation.


The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me.

Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow. I smell heat and smoke. The laser traces the outline of my body, my face, my hands. The buzz is loud in my ear. One flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle, and I am dead.

I do not flinch.

At last, Lord Sidious deactivates my weapon. He tosses it toward me. The sweat on my palm almost causes me to drop it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
LOL If Opress performed better then do you not think it's a no brainer that Maul who performed much better than Opress, also performed better than those Jedi?
No?

Really, performing better than someone else means nothing, especially if one's opponent is holding back.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Are you kidding me?

Dooku completely stomped AOTC Kenobi in Sabers. Whilst he had to put visible effort in his fight against Ventress. And in the end actually only defeated her with Force TK/Lightning.

A better argument would be that Opress and Ventress seemed to put up a better fight than a superior duo - ROTS Kenobi and Skywalker (up until Skywalker went Uber).

But does that mean Dooku was playing around with Ventress and Opress? Of course not!

He was putting in effort, but it was just a different environment and context. It was a surprise Double Team up that Dooku wasn't expecting and in a relatively enclosed space, when Opress and Ventress attacked him.
SIDIOUS66 have covered this nice and smoothly:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's Intrepid's point: Sidious put absolutely no visible effort in his fight against the brothers; he wasn't real aggressive, he was more calm and relaxed. Then we have Filoni outright confirm that Sidious was enjoying himself during that fight, which implies he wasn't taking Maul and Savage seriously, nor did he find them as any kind of threat. Furthermore, as been brought out numerous of times, Sidious wasn't even trying to kill Maul, so blitzing him wouldn't even be an option. When Sidious slaughtered the 3 jedi masters in seconds, he was more blood lusted and was out to kill them as quick as possible so he could deal with Mace; he was far more aggressive during that fight.

This is why it's important to pay attention to the context of a fight, which is something you and Arhael have a habit of not doing. If we follow your guy's line of thinking, then AOTC Kenobi is better than Ventress, considering that Dooku was easily flooring her left and right, despite having to deal with Savage at the same time.


Not sure why this kid doesn't see it.

Whether holding back or not, I still hold that had Sidious truly been fast enough to blitz the two he should not have been hit once in the duel.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Oh please. This was before becoming powerful enough to kill Plagueis.

It was all around TPM time period.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Further more, twice or so in Mauk's journal, he basically picks up Maul and slowly chokes him until he's at the brink of death. Considering he was handling a more powerful Maul + Opress at the same time through the force as casual as he did TPM Maul, is it not proof he improved?

No not at all. Opress wasn't there the first time. Simple as that.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's ludicrous to assume that Maul grew when he's half spider but Sidious did not while having time to study the dark side.

We damn well know Maul became more powerful. There's no proof anywhere Sidious did.

And how did he have more time after becoming Supreme Chancellor of the Galaxy, while secretly setting up a Galactic civil war?


Originally posted by Intrepid37
AotC Anakin has practically covered himself in light. Has RotS Anakin ever replicated this feat?


TPM Kenobi moved his blade so fast it expanded into a shield. Has RotS Kenobi ever replicated this feat?

So you don't think Anakin and Obi-Wan became more powerful throughout the movies because they don't have as many "visual feats" later on?

But I'm supposed to for absolutely no reason believe Sidious became more powerful in that time?

Wow.



Originally posted by Intrepid37
If you want to refer to Shadow Conspiracy, Maul, in the end, can only pick up afterimages of Sidious. :up]


The canon policy here is that we take books and comics(lower canon) as canon apart from when they contradict the same event in higher canon(movies and animation).

Clearly in the final battle between Maul and Sidious, Sidious wasn't moving too fast for him. He overpowered him in a Saber lock. Not through a Speed Blitz.






Originally posted by Intrepid37
This is a nice double standard.

You have to point out the double standard for me to address it. Because I honestly don't see one.



Originally posted by Intrepid37
When Maul wasn't given a boost and when Sidious did not hold back, Maul couldn't even see him.

Yes but it was a less powerful Maul.

Not to mention Sidious was a blur to Mace, but that didn't stop him fighting him. Not to mention these "invisible" Jedi/Sith showings have not been displayed anywhere in higher canon.





Originally posted by Intrepid37
Really, performing better than someone else means nothing, especially if one's opponent is holding back..

Yeah except there's nothing to say he was holding back.

And your just completely ignoring Dave Filoni's comment on the matter. Fact is he wouldn't have said that if his intention was for Sidious to be holding back. His comments go against yours and Sidious66's speculation. Because his comment about Opress performing better would be pointless and quite frankly retarded if we take yours and S66's views.

Am I saying that Sidious was pushed to his speed and strength limit like he was against Mace or Yoda? No. But that's not the same as purposefully holding back and slowing down his movements. Your making the claim. Prove it. And bringing up training sessions from Maul's perspective 10 years eariler, when Maul pretty much worshipped the ground Sidious walked on, is not proof that Sidious could speed blitz Maul 10+ years later when Maul is known to be more powerful.

You know what would have been proof? If Sidious actually did speed blitz Maul. But he didn't.


Originally posted by Intrepid37
SIDIOUS66 have covered this nice and smoothly:

Sidious66 and me have been over this countless times. All his arguments are speculative. As are yours on this topic.

You both need to accept that Sidious never speed blitz the brothers. On the contrary, he actually got hit a couple of times (a bit strange for a guy who is too fast to be seen) like Ares has correctly pointed out.




Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not sure why this kid doesn't see it.

I ain't no kid pal.

Edit.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That's Intrepid's point: Sidious put absolutely no visible effort in his fight against the brothers; he wasn't real aggressive, he was more calm and relaxed. Then we have Filoni outright confirm that Sidious was enjoying himself during that fight, which implies he wasn't taking Maul and Savage seriously, nor did he find them as any kind of threat. Furthermore, as been brought out numerous of times, Sidious wasn't even trying to kill Maul, so blitzing him wouldn't even be an option. When Sidious slaughtered the 3 jedi masters in seconds, he was more blood lusted and was out to kill them as quick as possible so he could deal with Mace; he was far more aggressive during that fight.

This is why it's important to pay attention to the context of a fight, which is something you and Arhael have a habit of not doing. If we follow your guy's line of thinking, then AOTC Kenobi is better than Ventress, considering that Dooku was easily flooring her left and right, despite having to deal with Savage at the same time.

Firstly none of this is Intrepid's point at all.

Intrepid is claiming that Sidious can Blitzed CW Maul because he could blitzed TPM Maul, completely ignoring Maul growing more powerful. That's all the proof he's been using really.

Second you bring up Filoni's comments, but make your own interpretation of it. Enjoying the fight is not at all implying he was holding back, as the Official Site itself confirms Sidious was enjoying his fight with Yoda.

What Filoni does outright confirm (which you will never accept), that Opress simply did better against Sidious than those Jedi who got blitzed. That's it. That's the reason him and Maul were not blitzed because he did better than them.

Let's not pretend Sidious desperately needed Maul alive, and wouldn't be willing to chop him up if he was required to.

As for Dooku vs Kenobi in AOTC, you only have to read the novel for confirmation on just how one sided that whole fight was.

Ventress performed much better in her one on one. And Dooku actually resorted to using Force TK to take her down.

Originally posted by Intrepid37


What?





Oh yeah this. Jedi/Sith are not invisible to the eye in higher canon. Arhael's pointed this out and I somewhat agree that it just seems to be hyperbolic descriptions used in novels.

They're fast. Sure. But not too fast to even see, and certianly never too fast for someone like Maul to even see.

And certianly not as fast as the kind of things Jedi/Sith are always reacting to like Blaster bolts.

In fact the fastest on screen depiction of Lightsaber movements have been from Grievous, whom the best Jedi/Sith can definitely react to.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes, becausde that was through his training. And before he became Supreme Chancellor. I'm not completely ruling out that he might have improved, but you'll definitely need to prove that.
He specifically chose Dooku because he didn't have the time to teach someone from scratch again. Being Supreme Chancellor whilst sub-plotting a civil war kept Sidious plenty busy.
I concede that I have zero proof of Sidious' growth between Episode I and Episode III, but not everything needs to written on paper. It's pretty ridiculous to say that he didn't improve, in my opinion.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Fighting the Maul brothers seems to have been the first time he came back out into action in a long long time.
This makes Sidious' performance every more impressive.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
On the other hand we know as a fact that Maul grew more powerful.
I know, but really, growing in power doesn't allude to every aspect.

Sidious is stated to be the most powerful Sith ever, but it does not stop Vitiate from rivaling him in the aspect of lightning.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
This is facepalm: facepalm. Not sure what a facepalmismiley is. Either way I'm pretty sure I don't deserve one! Lol
I couldn't find it in the smilies box.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I agree to an extent. Maul didn't get more powerful through combat. In fact according to Sith Hunters even Mother Talzins power only "restored him to his former power."

It was the rage and hatred that built up in him through the years that made him more powerful.

But fact is he was more powerful.
Covered the ''powerful'' part above.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Shadow conspiracy doesn't say "He was a warrior in his prime." That was only said in TPM novel. Which HAS TO be referring to his combat skills. There's no way that was the maximum speed and strength he could ever achieve. If it was he wouldn't be a worthy apprentice for Sidious.
Why not? Maul, at the time of TPM, was a complete beast in terms of technical skill and physical attributes.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Remember according to TCW he was trained to take over as Master one day. Not just as a mere tool for Sidious.

When did he say that? Sidious makes it clear that Maul was his ''instrument'' and that, even before Maul's apparant death, Anakin was always in his plans.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Shadow Conspiracy on the other hand describes the fight from Maul's POV where he's comparing this fight to facing Sidious in years past. And that's where he notes that despite his added power, he's still no match for Sidious.
I don't see the actual comparison from Shadow Conspiracy.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course his fight with Yoda was harder than his fight with the Brothers. So of course we would see him struggle more. But the fact is he was laughing while fighting Yoda too.

Not only when he threw the pods. But also in the Lightsaber fight.

He wasn't laughing when fighting the Council, but was when he fought Yoda, so does that mean he was holding back against Yoda?
He was laughing against Yoda only after the first slash of his blade, if I remember correctly, and when he threw pods.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And that fighting the Council was a lot more difficult for him than tackling Yoda?
It wasn't.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And what's further damning evidence is that the Official Site outright confirms that Sidious ENJOYED HIS FIGHT WITH YODA. So CLEARLY enjoying the fight does not mean holding back!
I never used the fact that Sidious enjoyed his fight against the brothers as proof.

As for Sidious enjoying his fight against Yoda, the official site makes it clear that Sidious ''knew he one day would have to eliminate Yoda'' and the novelization has it that Sidious is delighted to see Yoda.

It's more because Yoda was the most powerful Jedi, and for him to be destroyed would be the ultimate fall of the Jedi.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Intrepid Fact is Dave Filoni flat out confimred that even Opress put up a better fight against Sidious than those 3 Coucil members.

Don't just ignore what he's saying. It would be a pointless and retarded thing for him to bring up if his intention was for Sidious to be holding back.
It wouldn't. He says ''I'll say that much for him'', indicating he had to give Opress some kind of tribute with his death.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And the Fact is in all the numerous interviews with Dave Filoni he's never once mentioned or even hinted at Sidious holding back. He wouldn't leave out such an important part of the fight.

Neither TCW, Filoni or even Lucas for that matter gives two shits about power-scaling and other factors like ''holding back''. Lucas didn't mention anything about Sidious holding back against Mace, the idea comes from the description given by the novelization.

Originally posted by Intrepid37



I know, but really, growing in power doesn't allude to every aspect.

Sidious is stated to be the most powerful Sith ever, but it does not stop Vitiate from rivaling him in the aspect of lightning.

That all depends on each combatant's level of Mastery in different departments- Force TK, Force Lightning, Force enhanced abilities e.t.c.

But when the same individual has grown more powerful in the force, then you can bet that will effect all his abilities. Mual's TK was better because he grew more powerful in the Force. Not because his Force Mastery increased while he was mentally unstable on Lotho Minor all those years.

Kenobi also notes Maul is more powerful in Shadow Conspiracy. Since Kenobi hasn't even witnessed Maul's TK, the only possible explanation for that is he's witnessed the extra power in his combat performance.



Originally posted by Intrepid37

When did he say that? Sidious makes it clear that Maul was his ''instrument'' and that, even before Maul's apparant death, Anakin was always in his plans.

He only made that "clear" to Plaguies. Lucas's and Filoni's intent for TCW show was clear. That Maul was trained by Sidious to one day be Master. And not as a mere tool like Ventress was to him.






Originally posted by Intrepid37
He was laughing against Yoda only after the first slash of his blade, if I remember correctly, and when he threw pods.


It wasn't.


I never used the fact that Sidious enjoyed his fight against the brothers as proof.

As for Sidious enjoying his fight against Yoda, the official site makes it clear that Sidious ''knew he one day would have to eliminate Yoda'' and the novelization has it that Sidious is delighted to see Yoda.

It's more because Yoda was the most powerful Jedi, and for him to be destroyed would be the ultimate fall of the Jedi.

He laughs at Yoda twice in the Lightsaber duel. Once at the beginning and once towards the end of the Saber fight we see.

He then laughs his head off while throwing pods.

He enjoyed triumphing over Yoda as well as the Brothers. He likely would have enjoyed his triumph over Yoda a lot more, given that he was the much much greater challenge.

None of that means he was holding back against anyone.



Originally posted by Intrepid37
It wouldn't. He says ''I'll say that much for him'', indicating he had to give Opress some kind of tribute with his death.


Neither TCW, Filoni or even Lucas for that matter gives two shits about power-scaling and other factors like ''holding back''. Lucas didn't mention anything about Sidious holding back against Mace, the idea comes from the description given by the novelization.

Filoni basically gives Opress credit for not being Blitz(like the 3 Council Members were). There would be no credit to give there if he meant for Sidious to be holding back.

Lucas does have an idea of power scales. After all it's from him that we know Yoda is the most Powerful Jedi, and Mace second most powerful.

Filoni does as well, syaing things like "Dooku isn't ready to challenge Sidious."

And Lucas does hint at Sidious holding back against Mace since he flat out says in the commentary that Sidious was pretending to be weak against Mace.

Originally posted by Intrepid37

---------



Edit: Even if it does, it is a complete contradiction as later on in the same book, Sidious gets faster and faster, indicating he had been holding back the entire time.

Not necessarily. Not giving your very best doesn't mean your holding back. If you ever spar, you'll know that you don't always give your very best jabs right from the onset of the fight.

Fact that he disarmed him pretty quickly in that last one on one in the novel doesn't suggest holding back Imo.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Firstly none of this is Intrepid's point at all.


Intrepid confirmed it, so I think I'll take his word over yours.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Second you bring up Filoni's comments, but make your own interpretation of it. Enjoying the fight is not at all implying he was holding back, as the Official Site itself confirms Sidious was enjoying his fight with Yoda.


Nope, I take all things into consideration and actually pay attention to the context of the fight at hand, while you harp on one single comment and ignore the context of the fight.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What Filoni does outright confirm (which you will never accept), that Opress simply did better against Sidious than those Jedi who got blitzed. That's it. That's the reason him and Maul were not blitzed because he did better than them.


As been brought out to you already, doing better against Sidious, who wasn't even taking him seriously and was clearly trolling him, does not mean he is better or faster than three jedi masters combined, especially considering that one of those masters (Kit Fisto) is on par with Kenobi, who is likely faster than Savage, in sheer speed judging from their respective performances against Grievous.

If Filoni's intention was to make Savage superior to the masters (which he never confirmed that's what his intention was), then he failed at doing it by outright stating that Sidious was enjoying himself during that fight, and depicting Sidious as being all laughs & smiles and being very relaxed & far less aggressive. We didn't see Sidious pulling unnecessary fancy stunts with his back turned while he was up against Mace & company, did we? So unless George Lucas depicted Sidious as having the same demeanor when he fought the council members as when he fought the brothers, then the comment is irrelevant when it comes to a versus forum.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Let's not pretend Sidious desperately needed Maul alive


That's just it, Sidious wasn't desperate at all.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and wouldn't be willing to chop him up if he was required to.


Clearly he didn't need to. He wanted to take Maul alive, and that's exactly what he did after beating his ass, humiliating him and torturing him. It was that simple.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
As for Dooku vs Kenobi in AOTC, you only have to read the novel for confirmation on just how one sided that whole fight was.


The same with Sidious' fight with the brothers. You only need to read the novel, or, ummm, just watch the episode "for confirmation on just how one sided that whole fight was." Hell, Filoni basically confirms it as a one sided fight, as does the official website.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ventress performed much better in her one on one. And Dooku actually resorted to using Force TK to take her down.


As I said, Dooku was flooring Ventress left and right, despite having to deal with Savage at the same time. Conclusion: he was taking her more seriously and fighting her harder than he was ATOC Kenobi. You sure don't ignore context when it comes to those two duels, do you?


Originally posted by Intrepid37
I concede that I have zero proof of Sidious' growth between Episode I and Episode III, but not everything needs to written on paper. It's pretty ridiculous to say that he didn't improve, in my opinion.


If you're trying to say that Sidious grew in power since his test/duel with Maul on Hypori, then you do have proof: Sidious grows more powerful after he kills Plagueis, which happens after Maul was 'supposedly' killed by Kenobi in TPM.

As for the other time when Sidious muses how his power had increased, that was pretty much when he was on his own, way after he went through his vigorous training under Darth Plagueis. Remember, Plagueis had denied Sidious anymore training and teaching, and left him on his own. There was no mention of Sidious going through any training at the time, yet he still increased in power over time, so it's not too far fetched for you to believe that his power increased during his chancellorship.


Originally posted by Intrepid37
I know, but really, growing in power doesn't allude to every aspect.


Well Maul did pretty much imply that his combat ability (speed, strength, etc..) did improve with his increase in power and his training of Savage when he notes that despite how strong he has become, he was still in awe of Sidious' bladework and how Sidious predicted their every move before it happened, Otherwise his musing wouldn't make much sense. How would Maul's increase in power have anything to do with his fight with Sidious, unless he was somehow putting his increase of power to use.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not necessarily. Not giving your very best doesn't mean your holding back. If you ever spar, you'll know that you don't always give your very best jabs right from the onset of the fight. I'm going to have to respectively disagree with u here. With the exception of other factors coming into play such as being sick or injured, if your not giving ur very best then ur holding back. Your literaly holding your very best back. Even in ur sparring example ur holding back if ur not giving ur best jabs at the beginning, ur holding them back for later. At least in my opinion.

Also sorry if just picking one of ur points to argue is a little rude but I don't have a comp right now so all my posting is done from my android.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But when the same individual has grown more powerful in the force, then you can bet that will effect all his abilities. Mual's TK was better because he grew more powerful in the Force. Not because his Force Mastery increased while he was mentally unstable on Lotho Minor all those years.
Sidious improved twice after fighting Maul on Hypori and after his demonstration of superior speed.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Kenobi also notes Maul is more powerful in Shadow Conspiracy. Since Kenobi hasn't even witnessed Maul's TK, the only possible explanation for that is he's witnessed the extra power in his combat performance.
Quote?

Either way, this is wrong. One can feel anothers power through the force:

Palpatine restrained an impulse to reveal his true identity. Dooku was strong in the Force, and might simply be attempting to draw him out. On the other hand...

This despite Sidious knew nothing of Dooku's telekinetic powers.

Sidious also notes Plagueis' growth in power:

Seen through the Force, he was a nuclear oval of mottled light, a rotating orb of terrifying energy. If the Maladian attack had weakened him physically, it had also helped to shape his etheric body into a vessel sufficiently strong to contain the full power of the dark side.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He only made that "clear" to Plaguies. Lucas's and Filoni's intent for TCW show was clear. That Maul was trained by Sidious to one day be Master. And not as a mere tool like Ventress was to him.
Wrong.

He laughs again. But this time, his laughter does not mock me. "You will do well, Lord Maul, " he says.

And my rage against him leaves, never to return. I am a Sith Lord. I am his instrument.

-Episode I Journal: Darth Maul


Dooku was an eager student, and yet Sidious had continued to hold him at arm's length. Perhaps he had been working with other potential replacements for his earlier apprentice, the savage Darth Maul, who, in fact, had been nothing more than a minion, like Asajj Ventress and General Grievous.

-Labyrinth of Evil

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He laughs at Yoda twice in the Lightsaber duel. Once at the beginning and once towards the end of the Saber fight we see.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
None of that means he was holding back against anyone.
He only laughs once in his lightsaber duel with Yoda, in the start.

Point still stands.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Filoni basically gives Opress credit for not being Blitz(like the 3 Council Members were). There would be no credit to give there if he meant for Sidious to be holding back.
Not really. He also says ''for him to take on Darth Sidious'' <-loose paraphrase of mine. Clearly he did not ''take on'' Sidious.

Filoni's statement has absolutely nothing to do with the context of the fight, but rather Opress' own performance.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lucas does have an idea of power scales. After all it's from him that we know Yoda is the most Powerful Jedi, and Mace second most powerful.

Filoni does as well, syaing things like "Dooku isn't ready to challenge Sidious."
All these are obvious, really.

Honestly, do you actually think that, when they choreographed the fight between Sidious and the brothers, they thought about Sidious holding back?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And Lucas does hint at Sidious holding back against Mace since he flat out says in the commentary that Sidious was pretending to be weak against Mace.
I was talking about the way Sidious had set it all up.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If you're trying to say that Sidious grew in power since his test/duel with Maul on Hypori, then you do have proof: Sidious grows more powerful after he kills Plagueis, which happens after Maul was 'supposedly' killed by Kenobi in TPM.
I have brought this up, but apparantly it's all in the ''TPM period'' so it's not enough.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
As for the other time when Sidious muses how his power had increased, that was pretty much when he was on his own, way after he went through his vigorous training under Darth Plagueis. Remember, Plagueis had denied Sidious anymore training and teaching, and left him on his own. There was no mention of Sidious going through any training at the time, yet he still increased in power over time, so it's not too far fetched for you to believe that his power increased during his chancellorship.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
How would Maul's increase in power have anything to do with his fight with Sidious, unless he was somehow putting his increase of power to use.
Because Maul clearly didn't hold a candle to Sidious in terms of power in the force?

Despiste his increase in power, Maul acknowledges Sidious superiority through the force:

The commandos guarding the royal chamber reached for their throats. As Maul watched, an unseen forced lifted them high in the air, then slammed them to the floor, where they lay motionless in their red-and-black armor. The doors opened, then closed behind a figure in dark robes. A deep cowl hid most of the face, leaving only a pale chin and a downturned mouth visible. To most eyes the man in those simple robes of rough cloth was unremarkable, just another being making his way in the universe. But to those who could feel the Force he was anything but ordinary. To them, he was a dark sun blazing with power that was simultaneously hypnotizing and terrifying to behold.

Maul feels a terrible pleasure in the start of their fight with Sidious, this despite they, at this point, nearly hadn't crossed blades at all.

Then there's this:

Darth Maul was a warrior in his prime, never to be any better, his powers at their apex. In addition, he was driven by his messianic hatred for and disdain of the Jedi Knights, the enemies of the Sith for millennia. He had worked and trained all his life for this moment, for a chance to meet a Jedi Knight in combat.

-The Phantom Menace

Maul, as of TPM, was clearly peaking in terms of physical attributes and technical skill. Although TCW Maul is clearly more powerful in terms of the force, whether he regained that skill is possible, but certainly not confirmed. Personally, I'd like to think of them as equals in everything but force powers.

Originally posted by Raptor22
I'm going to have to respectively disagree with u here. With the exception of other factors coming into play such as being sick or injured, if your not giving ur very best then ur holding back. Your literaly holding your very best back. Even in ur sparring example ur holding back if ur not giving ur best jabs at the beginning, ur holding them back for later. At least in my opinion.

Also sorry if just picking one of ur points to argue is a little rude but I don't have a comp right now so all my posting is done from my android.


In The Cestus Deception, Fisto, when sparring with Kenobi, is clearly the superior swordsman, this despite handicapping himself so much that Kenobi was able to keep up, and even then, Kenobi still sees that Fisto is faster than him.

Same thing goes for Sidious' fight with the brothers, in my opinion.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Intrepid confirmed it, so I think I'll take his word over yours.

By all means take his word for it:

Originally posted by Intrepid37



I never used the fact that Sidious enjoyed his fight against the brothers as proof.



How about actually paying attention to the conversation instead of just siding with him just because he's saying SIDIOUS SPEED BLITZ LULZ



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Nope, I take all things into consideration and actually pay attention to the context of the fight at hand, while you harp on one single comment and ignore the context of the fight.

HAHA You use context? Yeah that's a joke. It's funny.





Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
As been brought out to you already, doing better against Sidious, who wasn't even taking him seriously and was clearly trolling him, does not mean he is better or faster than three jedi masters combined, especially considering that one of those masters (Kit Fisto) is on par with Kenobi, who is likely faster than Savage, in sheer speed judging from their respective performances against Grievous.

Wow this is context for you??

That Fisto is on par with Kenobi. Yeah completely factual that, and not your biased speculation at all.

And basically nullifyng Filoni's comment to suit your own comments



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If Filoni's intention was to make Savage superior to the masters (which he never confirmed that's what his intention was),

LOL That's EXACTLY what he confirmed. I know you still cry over this. Because it clearly puts Opress> Fisto in speed, and overall combat ability.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
then he failed at doing it by outright stating that Sidious was enjoying himself during that fight, and depicting Sidious as being all laughs & smiles and being very relaxed & far less aggressive. We didn't see Sidious pulling unnecessary fancy stunts with his back turned while he was up against Mace & company, did we? So unless George Lucas depicted Sidious as having the same demeanor when he fought the council members as when he fought the brothers, then the comment is irrelevant when it comes to a versus forum.

Oh yeah great context and logic.

I guess Lucas also failed to show us that Yoda was a greater threat than the Jedi Council, since Sidious was serious against the 2 Council Members but laughing his ass off against Yoda.

Another fact you like to overlook, since this and Filoni's comment about Opress performing better are all that's needed to prove all your extensive arguments completely wrong on this topic.




Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Clearly he didn't need to. He wanted to take Maul alive, and that's exactly what he did after beating his ass, humiliating him and torturing him. It was that simple. The same with Sidious' fight with the brothers. You only need to read the novel, or, ummm, just watch the episode "for confirmation on just how one sided that whole fight was." Hell, Filoni basically confirms it as a one sided fight, as does the official website..

Yeah and? How does that prove he could have Super Blitzed him?

Oh that's right? It doesn't. It's just you going off on a random rant again.





Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66



As I said, Dooku was flooring Ventress left and right, despite having to deal with Savage at the same time. Conclusion: he was taking her more seriously and fighting her harder than he was ATOC Kenobi. You sure don't ignore context when it comes to those two duels, do you?

Oh he floored Ventress.. Wow! Right yeah that's a lot better than cutting Kenobi's arm and leg!

Your the one ignoring the context with the Sidious vs Maul brothers fight.

He was there to "Destroy his Rivals". That was his primary goal.

It's actually the only and best fight we have to see if Sidious could blitzed the Maul brothers(or Jedi on a similar level), but clearly he can not in a Saber fight.

What the fight does prove is he can take out opponents on that level much faster Via Force TK attacks.

Originally posted by Raptor22
I'm going to have to respectively disagree with u here. With the exception of other factors coming into play such as being sick or injured, if your not giving ur very best then ur holding back. Your literaly holding your very best back. Even in ur sparring example ur holding back if ur not giving ur best jabs at the beginning, ur holding them back for later. At least in my opinion.


That's not holding back in the sense that "Oh I don't want to hurt this person" or "I'll handicap myself so that it's a better fight."

Not giving your best hits right at the start is just a normal thing to do in a fight, conserve energy for later, measure the distance in your head, e.t.c. It's just normal combat strategy. It's not holding back with intention of not winning, or prolonging the fight.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious improved twice after fighting Maul on Hypori and after his demonstration of superior speed.

Ok. But Hypori was when he did take him on once in a fit of rage.

Whatever happened before that is ppointless to bring up because he had been starved for days/weeks. And was completely fatigued.


Originally posted by Intrepid37
Quote?

Either way, this is wrong. One can feel anothers power through the force:

Palpatine restrained an impulse to reveal his true identity. Dooku was strong in the Force, and might simply be attempting to draw him out. On the other hand...

This despite Sidious knew nothing of Dooku's telekinetic powers.

Sidious also notes Plagueis' growth in power:

Seen through the Force, he was a nuclear oval of mottled light, a rotating orb of terrifying energy. If the Maladian attack had weakened him physically, it had also helped to shape his etheric body into a vessel sufficiently strong to contain the full power of the dark side.

Quote was from when Kenobi is thinking just before he takes on btoh brothers.

But I concede this point as I just remembered Maul Force Choked Kenobi in Sith Hunters.


Originally posted by Intrepid37
Wrong.

He laughs again. But this time, his laughter does not mock me. "You will do well, Lord Maul, " he says.

And my rage against him leaves, never to return. I am a Sith Lord. I am his instrument.

-Episode I Journal: Darth Maul


Dooku was an eager student, and yet Sidious had continued to hold him at arm's length. Perhaps he had been working with other potential replacements for his earlier apprentice, the savage Darth Maul, who, in fact, had been nothing more than a minion, like Asajj Ventress and General Grievous.

-Labyrinth of Evil

No your completely wrong on this point. Lucas's intention is above all these sources you've quoted.

And the first one in Maul's Journal you've taken out of context. Maul saw himself as Sidious's tool but also his heir.

The second one is just what Dooku thinks.




Originally posted by Intrepid37
He only laughs once in his lightsaber duel with Yoda, in the start.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUlqDMcS_RE

At least twice during the Lightsaber fight. 2:05 and 2:20. But I may have got confused between the end og the Lightsaber fight and the begninning of throwing the pods at 2:40. After which he's just laughing his ass off.

Point is even at the throwing pods scene, he was never holding back.

And the official site confirms Sidious's enjoyment at battling Yoda.

So no Sidious enjoying the fight and laughing is not proof at all of him holding back.

I've proven this many times but some people just don't want to accept this as they need to use it as their "obvious" context to the fight. Well that context clearly isn't a factor. At all.




Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not really. He also says ''for him to take on Darth Sidious'' <-loose paraphrase of mine. Clearly he did not ''take on'' Sidious.

Filoni's statement has absolutely nothing to do with the context of the fight, but rather Opress' own performance.

This is ridiculous. Of course it has to do with the context of the fight, otherwise it would be a pointless comparison.




Originally posted by Intrepid37
Honestly, do you actually think that, when they choreographed the fight between Sidious and the brothers, they thought about Sidious holding back?

No, I don't think it was in their minds at all that Sidious has gone there to fight with "reduced speed" Lol.


Originally posted by Intrepid37
I was talking about the way Sidious had set it all up.

Where's that explained in the novel? Either way it's obvious the novel will always give us greater depth. That's the same for all films.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He was never in perfect condition on Hypori.
Sidious' speed demonstration wasn't on Hypori.



Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well Dave Filoni has made that clear the intention for what Maul was in TCW. So unless you think Filoni was doing that against Lucas's wishes?
Filoni hasn't made a clear intention.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Deceiving the guy he's planning to kill one day is hardly proof of anything.
Not sure what you mean by this.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So what your claiming Maul knew he wasn't a true Sith Lord just someone Sidious was using?
He was, but not one that was meant to ever exceed Sidious and carry on the Rule of Two. But such does not take away from hos (obvious) high level of skill and mastery as a combatant.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Come one man. Think of the amount of time and effort Sidious put into Maul's training. Not just combat training, but skill to manipulate a Galaxy. It's silly to think that was all just to have an assassin.

Filoni's intention for TCW is clear. This is the Maul who was trained by Sidious to one day take over as Master.
Nah.

"Do not let me see you relax your guard again, " my Master says. His eyes burn. "You are valuable, yes. But you are not indispensable, Lord Maul. I can do without you."

-Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

I, too, made a mistake. Perhaps Maul was not the best choice. For my next apprentice, I will choose more carefully. There must be hate and fear in him. There must be something in his heart that has gone cold, something that I can work on to expand into ruthlessness. But there must be great cunning and intelligence as well.

The next apprentice will make no mistakes.

-Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

His eyes glittered. Still, he had gotten what he wanted most from this business. Even the loss of Darth Maul was worth that. He would bide his time. He would wait for his chance. He would lay the groundwork for what was needed.

A smile played across his thin lips. A day of reckoning would come about soon enough.

-The Phantom Menace

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Filoni's intention is >>> Dooku's opinion on Maul just being a tool.
Filoni has shown no intention.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Especially considering we know it was Dooku who was being used by Sidious the whole time. Which just shows Dooku had no clue to Sidious's real intentions.
Dooku notes in Revenge of the Sith how Maul had been ''an animal, a skilled animal, but a beast nontheless''.

Dooku has no reason for him to think of Maul as a minion unless Sidious had told him he was, considering Dooku acknowledges Maul's skill.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah that's Force Pre-Cog. Sidious's Pre-Cog was better than Maul's and Opress which is the reason he was in control of the fight
Not really ''the'' reason. Sidious is faster, stronger, more skilled, more powerful, more anything than the brothers.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But that doesn't mean he could have Blitzed them any time. After all the novel says that The Instant Maul was just slightly off balance Sidious used it to his advantage to Force TK Maul.

That doesn't hint at an opponent holding back at all.
It doesn't neccesarily mean that he could blitz them, but it meant that he was holding back.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah except there's nothing to interpret. His statement is pretty clear cut. With a direct comparison made to a situation we damn well know Sidious wasn't holding back.
The only thing that statement confirms is that Opress performed better than the Jedi. That's it. It has zero to do with Sidious holding back.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course we can. He was the Supervising Director of a T-Canon source.

If he had no intention of having Sidious fighting at reduced speed, then Sidious simply wasn't holding back in the Saber combat. End of.
There's no proof that he didn't have the intention. After all, the official novelization for the episodes has Sidious becoming faster and faster.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/gallery/yes/yesjacknicholson.gif

Didn't someone post a quote saying that Sidious had never been trying to kill Maul? Why is the discussion carrying on past that point?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/gallery/yes/yesjacknicholson.gif
Maul is still a good warrior, though.

Yup.

Originally posted by Intrepid37





Filoni hasn't made a clear intention.

Yes he has. Watch all his and Sam Witwer's interviews on the subject. It couldn't be more clear.




Originally posted by Intrepid37
He was, but not one that was meant to ever exceed Sidious and carry on the Rule of Two. But such does not take away from hos (obvious) high level of skill and mastery as a combatant.

It seems he was initially. But since you agree it has no bearing on his combat potential, there's no point in arguing the matter.



Originally posted by Intrepid37
"Do not let me see you relax your guard again, " my Master says. His eyes burn. "You are valuable, yes. But you are not indispensable, Lord Maul. I can do without you."

-Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Oh come on. You expect a Sith Master to tell his apprentice: "I need you so bad.."

And this is what he's telling Maul. So are you really going to tell me Maul himself knew he wasn't a true Sith heir?

You should stop arguing this point which has been confirmed to be false by the creators of TCW.


Originally posted by Intrepid37
I, too, made a mistake. Perhaps Maul was not the best choice. For my next apprentice, I will choose more carefully. There must be hate and fear in him. There must be something in his heart that has gone cold, something that I can work on to expand into ruthlessness. But there must be great cunning and intelligence as well.

The next apprentice will make no mistakes.

His eyes glittered. Still, he had gotten what he wanted most from this business. Even the loss of Darth Maul was worth that. He would bide his time. He would wait for his chance. He would lay the groundwork for what was needed.

A smile played across his thin lips. A day of reckoning would come about soon enough.

-Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Sidious's thoughts after Maul got killed in a very clumsy fashion by a Padawan. Has no bearing at all on Maul's potential and Sidious's initial intentions for him.



Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku notes in Revenge of the Sith how Maul had been ''an animal, a skilled animal, but a beast nontheless''.

Dooku has no reason for him to think of Maul as a minion unless Sidious had told him he was, considering Dooku acknowledges Maul's skill.

Stop using what Dooku thought as some kind of proof of Sidious's inital intentions.

Dooku also tells Opress in higher canon that Maul was a "Great Sith Lord." Not that he was "a Great Sith Tool." Lol



Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not really ''the'' reason. Sidious is faster, stronger, more skilled, more powerful, more anything than the brothers.

And he has better pre-cog.



Originally posted by Intrepid37
The only thing that statement confirms is that Opress performed better than the Jedi. That's it. It has zero to do with Sidious holding back.

Of course it does. He made a direct comparison to the Jedi's situation where Sidious obviously wasn't holding back.

Stop twisting Filoni's words to mean something else. He never once mentioned or even hinted at Sidious purposefully reducing his speed.


Originally posted by Intrepid37
There's no proof that he didn't have the intention. After all, the official novelization for the episodes has Sidious becoming faster and faster.

In a scene that's been overwritten by the actual episode. In the actual scene your referring to, there was very little difference in speed between Maul and Sidious.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Didn't someone post a quote saying that Sidious had never been trying to kill Maul? Why is the discussion carrying on past that point?

Actually the quote from the novel was that Sidious wasn't holding back.

And I'm the one wondering how this can carry on after Filoni flat out confirmed in the episode review that Opress and Maul simply performed better than the Jedi who got blitzed

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes he has. Watch all his and Sam Witwer's interviews on the subject. It couldn't be more clear.
Link me?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh come on. You expect a Sith Master to tell his apprentice: "I need you so bad.."
And I am twisting words?

He said it, deal with it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And this is what he's telling Maul. So are you really going to tell me Maul himself knew he wasn't a true Sith heir?
Maul obviously thought otherwise.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You should stop arguing this point which has been confirmed to be false by the creators of TCW.
If so, prove it.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Sidious's thoughts after Maul got killed in a very clumsy fashion by a Padawan. Has no bearing at all on Maul's potential and Sidious's initial intentions for him.
Sidious himself confirmes that for his plans to succeed were more important than for Maul to survive, and that he could do without him, in contrary to Sidious' worries should Anakin die.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Stop using what Dooku thought as some kind of proof of Sidious's inital intentions.
Sure.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And he has better pre-cog.
Much better. To the degree where he basically knew what Maul and Opress were gonna do.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course it does. He made a direct comparison to the Jedi's situation where Sidious obviously wasn't holding back.

Stop twisting Filoni's words to mean something else.
I am twisting nothing: Filoni made it clear that Opress performed better against Sidious than Fisto, Tiin and Kolar did. You are the one twisting it so that it sounds like Sidious was not holding back.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He never once mentioned or even hinted at Sidious purposefully reducing his speed.
He need not to.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Link me?


And I am twisting words?

He said it, deal with it.


Maul obviously thought otherwise.


If so, prove it.

I'll have to go back through their interviews now to find them.


Originally posted by Intrepid37
Maul obviously thought otherwise.

This is getting silly.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious himself confirmes that for his plans to succeed were more important than for Maul to survive, and that he could do without him, in contrary to Sidious' worries should Anakin die.

That's because Anakin was an exceptional case that would grow the Sith a tremendous amount.

When Luke came along he was willing to replace Vader. Does that mean Vader was a tool the whole time, and not a true Sith Heir?






Originally posted by Intrepid37
Much better. To the degree where he basically knew what Maul and Opress were gonna do.

That's how Pre-Cog works.


Originally posted by Intrepid37
I am twisting nothing: Filoni made it clear that Opress performed better against Sidious than Fisto, Tiin and Kolar did. You are the one twisting it so that it sounds like Sidious was not holding back.



Filoni's words were clear. He compared the 2 situations and said Opress simply did better.

Your the one adding the twist that Sidious was holding back in one of the situations. A twist without adequate proof to back it up. And a twist Filoni hasn't even hinted at in all his extensive interviews concerning that fight.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'll have to go back through their interviews now to find them.
I'll wait.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
This is getting silly.
And this is a red herring.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
When Luke came along he was willing to replace Vader. Does that mean Vader was a tool the whole time, and not a true Sith Heir?
After Sidious heard of Luke, yes.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's how Pre-Cog works.
And thus makes it perfectly clear that Sidious was holding back.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Filoni's words were clear. He compared the 2 situations and said Opress simply did better.

Your the one adding the twist that Sidious was holding back in one of the situations. A twist without adequate proof to back it up. And a twist Filoni hasn't even hinted at in all his extensive interviews concerning that fight.
facepalm

I did not bring up Filoni's statements and do not use it as proof for my argument.

Again, Sidious can move so fast that TPM Maul couldn't see him. The same TPM Maul that, according to a novelization, were on the top of his game in the aspects of lightsaber skill and physical prowess.

It is up for you to prove that TCW Maul is faster than TPM Maul. Your interpretation of Shadow Conspiracy is nil when compared to an actual canon source.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Actually the quote from the novel was that Sidious wasn't holding back.

And I'm the one wondering how this can carry on after Filoni flat out confirmed in the episode review that Opress and Maul simply performed better than the Jedi who got blitzed

God, are you still ****ing sore about that? He says they put up more of a fight, which no shit they did. That means nothing about whether Sidious allowed them to.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's the Force that enhances all abilities. Including strength and speed.
Sidious grew in power too.

My personal little theory here with the M.Brother vs Sidious fight wasn't exactly Sidious "holding back" as it was him kinda "messing around".

He wasn't purposely holding back his power to make the battle more even or whatever, but he wasn't exactly pushed to the limits either. He was enjoying himself, and cutting loose for the first time in years. >w>

But it's simply silly to say that had Sidious wanted, he could have killed them in an instant with lightning-fast ninja moves here. Seriously.

Victory is mine:

http://i44.tinypic.com/10f9fo6.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/2v27h2u.jpg

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I have brought this up, but apparantly it's all in the ''TPM period'' so it's not enough.


Yeah, well you're arguing with DARTH POWER lol.




Originally posted by Intrepid37
Because Maul clearly didn't hold a candle to Sidious in terms of power in the force?

Despiste his increase in power, Maul acknowledges Sidious superiority through the force:

The commandos guarding the royal chamber reached for their throats. As Maul watched, an unseen forced lifted them high in the air, then slammed them to the floor, where they lay motionless in their red-and-black armor. The doors opened, then closed behind a figure in dark robes. A deep cowl hid most of the face, leaving only a pale chin and a downturned mouth visible. To most eyes the man in those simple robes of rough cloth was unremarkable, just another being making his way in the universe. But to those who could feel the Force he was anything but ordinary. To them, he was a dark sun blazing with power that was simultaneously hypnotizing and terrifying to behold.


This was before they even engaged in combat. I'm referring to Maul's musing during mid-combat. Maul muses that as strong as he had become, he still found himself in awe of Sidious, and then goes on to elaborate on Sidious' blade-work, which seems to imply that Maul's new found powers did increase his combat prowess, otherwise it wouldn't make much sense for him to make a contrast in his increase of power to Sidious' bladework, unless his powers did increase his combat performance to some level.

But other than that, I agree with you. And arguing with DP is a waste of time. He will argue and argue and argue and argue no matter how wrong he is. He will even go to desperate lengths to win a debate. For example, he keeps comparing Sidious laughter at certain moments during his fight with Yoda to his entire demeanor during his fight with the brothers, despite the fact that Sidious clearly showed more signs of struggle, strain and desperation during his fight with Yoda more than any other fight he has been in during their saber duel (Sidious even shouts in complete frustration). So comparing Sidious fight with Yoda to his fight with the brothers is stupid. Sidious was constantly very relaxed, calm, and far less aggressive during his duel with the brothers. Throughout the entire duel, Sidious wasn't even trying to kill Maul, and was clearly toying with Savage. Obviously, he wasn't fighting them his hardest.

As for Savage putting up a better fight against Sidious than the council members, well one could just as easily say Barris put up a better fight against Anakin than Dooku did (or just as good of a fight), if they ignore the circumstance and context of the fight. But to suggest that Barris is anywhere near Dooku in terms of speed and skill, would be outright retarded. So like I said, unless Lucas depicted Sidious with the same demeanor during his fight against the council member as Filoni depicted him during his fight against the brothers, then Filoni's comment is irrelevant in a vs. forum.

Actually, Opress put up a better fight saber-wise against Sidious than he did Dooku...

Dooku>Sidious

Yeah.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Victory is mine:

http://i44.tinypic.com/10f9fo6.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/2v27h2u.jpg

Just to further elaborate this point:

http://i44.tinypic.com/s5cu44.jpg

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Actually, Opress put up a better fight saber-wise against Sidious than he did Dooku...

Dooku>Sidious

Yeah.
Didn't Opress manage to disarm Dooku in that fight? I'd consider that better than what he did (nothing) to Sidious in sabers.

I was talking about their sparring section in which Dooku disarms Opress twice with casual ease.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I was talking about their sparring section in which Dooku disarms Opress twice with casual ease.
True. But Opress was using one saber, while he seems to prefer using a double saber. Also, he was still a noob back then.

Pretty sure Filoni's said that all his powers are from his nightbrother amp and that he's barely had any training from Dooku.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Just to further elaborate this point:

http://i44.tinypic.com/s5cu44.jpg

Elaborating even further...

http://i40.tinypic.com/kye6t.jpg

That should probably be taken with a grain of salt. The TPM novelization and Darth Plagueis both indicate Sidious was surprised by Maul's defeat on Naboo; the line from the Essential Guide is very likely Sidious lying his ass off to soothe his wounded pride.

As far as Maul's overall purpose, he clearly began as an expendable asset to Sidious and had no ambition to usurp the mantle. Now it seems he has been reimagined as a potential successor from the beginning, trained in broader disciplines than simple assassination.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
the line from the Essential Guide is very likely Sidious lying his ass off to soothe his wounded pride.
I'd rather call it a retcon.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Now it seems he has been reimagined as a potential successor from the beginning, trained in broader disciplines than simple assassination.
Based on what?

The problem is that while the guide may have retconned the TPM novel, Darth Plagueis was released 5 years after the guide.

Per comments from Dave Filoni, Sam Witwer, et al. as mentioned by DARTH POWER.

I was noting that Darth Plagueis retconned the sourcebook, actually.

But in the actual book, the only thing I can find on the subject is when Sidious ''learns'' about Maul's death... this doesn't actually mean he didn't predict it, but rather found out that now it had happened.

Not sure about what you're talking about in reference to the TPM novelization, and the comments from the staff should certainly not be higher canon than four sourcebooks.

Originally posted by Intrepid37


Not sure about what you're talking about in reference to the TPM novelization, and the comments from the staff should certainly not be higher canon than four sourcebooks.

TPM novel has Sidious thinking to himself, a little upset/disappointed by Maul's death. IIRC Sidious's entry in Maul's journal implies the same thing. It's only then he starts to think that maybe he made a mistake with Maul, and all other entries made by Sidious later were likely influenced by his pride like Tempest has pointed out.

Also I've noticed most the "evidences" your quoting are not really that relevant. Sidious seeing him as a tool and Maul not having ambition to overthrow Sidious does not mean Maul was not supposed to be his heir.

Fact is Sidious didn't put all that time and effort into training Maul in the ways of the Force, and as a Galaxy level manipulator just to have a handy assassin around. He can hire all the bounty hunters he wants for that.

Heck Maul was even informed on Sidious's grand plans regarding the clone wars well in advance. That kind of information is a bit beyond the pay grade of a mere assassin.


Originally posted by NewGuy01
My personal little theory here with the M.Brother vs Sidious fight wasn't exactly Sidious "holding back" as it was him kinda "messing around".

He wasn't purposely holding back his power to make the battle more even or whatever, but he wasn't exactly pushed to the limits either. He was enjoying himself, and cutting loose for the first time in years. >w>

But it's simply silly to say that had Sidious wanted, he could have killed them in an instant with lightning-fast ninja moves here. Seriously.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
TPM novel has Sidious thinking to himself, a little upset/disappointed by Maul's death. IIRC Sidious's entry in Maul's journal implies the same thing.
This contradicts absolutely no source I've given.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's only then he starts to think that maybe he made a mistake with Maul, and all other entries made by Sidious later were likely influenced by his pride like Tempest has pointed out.
Not really.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also I've noticed most the "evidences" your quoting are not really that relevant. Sidious seeing him as a tool and Maul not having ambition to overthrow Sidious does not mean Maul was not supposed to be his heir.
http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Darth%20Maul/DookuandMaulwereplaceholders_zps27e1195d.png

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Fact is Sidious didn't put all that time and effort into training Maul in the ways of the Force, and as a Galaxy level manipulator just to have a handy assassin around. He can hire all the bounty hunters he wants for that.
Fact or your opinion?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Heck Maul was even informed on Sidious's grand plans regarding the clone wars well in advance. That kind of information is a bit beyond the pay grade of a mere assassin.
Not really.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This contradicts absolutely no source I've given.

It contradicts the idea that he foresaw his death and wanted it to happen. Isn't that what you were saying earlier?



Originally posted by Intrepid37

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Darth%20Maul/DookuandMaulwereplaceholders_zps27e1195d.png


Where's that quote from? Who was Sidious intending to replace Maul with? He didn't even know of Skywalker then.


Originally posted by Intrepid37
Fact or your opinion?




Ok you have me there. That's my common sense telling me he wouldn't spend that kind of time and effort to have a mere assassin that he planned to kill or let die later.

If he found someone better? Then yeah sure. If not Maul was chosen to be heir according to the creators of T-Canon show who were acting only according to what Lucas wanted.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It contradicts the idea that he foresaw his death and wanted it to happen. Isn't that what you were saying earlier?
It doesn't contradict it...




Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Where's that quote from? Who was Sidious intending to replace Maul with? He didn't even know of Skywalker then.
Episode III: Visual Dictionary


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ok you have me there. That's my common sense telling me he wouldn't spend that kind of time and effort to have a mere assassin that he planned to kill or let die later.
Not really. Maul was trained for one thing: to show a face of the Sith, nothing more.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If he found someone better? Then yeah sure. If not Maul was chosen to be heir according to the creators of T-Canon show who were acting only according to what Lucas wanted.
The creators also thought that Sidious saw Dooku as an replacement ie ''it doesn't work out with Dooku''. They're clearly retarded.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It doesn't contradict it...





Episode III: Visual Dictionary



Not really. Maul was trained for one thing: to show a face of the Sith, nothing more.


The creators also thought that Sidious saw Dooku as an replacement ie ''it doesn't work out with Dooku''. They're clearly retarded.

Well you can call them retarded. But they were just following what Lucas wanted and were in charge of a higher canon than the sources your quoting.

Maul wouldn't have been trained to manipulate and take over the Galaxy, or informed of Sidiou's grand Clone War plans, if his job was just to "show a face of the Sith, nothing more."

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well you can call them retarded. But they were just following what Lucas wanted and were in charge of a higher canon than the sources your quoting.


I think you might being giving Lucas more credit than he has coming on what he wanted for an EU Maul. I don't think he really thought about any of that.

Originally posted by truejedi
I think you might being giving Lucas more credit than he has coming on what he wanted for an EU Maul. I don't think he really thought about any of that.

Hey tj. Your a blast from the past.

I quoted Sam Witwer before saying everyone working on TCW were doing only what Lucas wanted.

Also it was his idea to bring Maul back, and he gave the reason that Maul is one of his favorite characters. So I'm pretty sure he did think it through.