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DC or Marvel?

To be honest, although I read more Marvel than DC, I have always though that DC had the more original creations, both in Profile and Appearance.

What do you guys think? Give scans if possible.

Originally posted by Horrificus
DC or Marvel?

To be honest, although I read more Marvel than DC, I have always though that DC had the more original creations, both in Profile and Appearance.

What do you guys think? Give scans if possible.

What are your examples, if you think DC has more imaginative, unique characters.

Neither. They both steal from each other.

Now if we're including companies other than the big two then we can talk.

I Always liked aspen for example.

I don't think this is about stealing from other companies. Rather than which company you find to have more unique/imaginative characters.

How was Spider-Man not unique and imaginative when he debuted?

Daredevil? Wolverine?


People have envisioned flying or being strong since antiquity, but who has imagined using echolocation like a bat to get around (Daredevil) or spikes coming from their hands when they get angry (Wolverine), or walking up a smooth wall as if it had rungs like a ladder (Spider-Man)?


Gonna have to disagree with your assessment as a result, P.R.

It ignores completely how revolutionary some of these guys were when 1st introduced decades ago.


Marvel, arguably, had a LOT more such characters than DC.

I said neither was more imaginative than the other, not that either company wasnt at all imaginative.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
How was Spider-Man not unique and imaginative when he debuted?

Daredevil? Wolverine?


People have envisioned flying or being strong since antiquity, but who has imagined using echolocation like a bat to get around (Daredevil) or spikes coming from their hands when they get angry (Wolverine), or walking up a smooth wall as if it had rungs like a ladder (Spider-Man)?


Gonna have to disagree with your assessment as a result, P.R.

It ignores completely how revolutionary some of these guys were when 1st introduced decades ago.


Marvel, arguably, had a LOT more such characters than DC.

I completely agree that time period has to be taken into account, but entirely disagree with your Marvel favoritism here.

There's no way to tell. Even Superman was original back when he debuted. Aquaman? Wonder Woman (any Woman at that time was crazy original)? Green Lantern?

Both companies had very original characters when they started. Both have stolen enormously from the other. If you forced me to choose, I'd say DC because they're older and therefore probably had a few more completely original ideas.

Considering the mainstream universes, it's become balanced now that DCU has reincorporated the vertigo characters as IMO they are what DC has of most unique and imaginitive. Without them I'd say Marvel and in my personal opinion DC relies on recycling its own character concepts too much, althguoh Marvel has taken thsi route a lot in recent years.

Sorry I didn't clarify. I'm not really speaking of the characters that have been around since the beginning, because, of course, there were plenty of ideas that had never been tapped.
Rather, without having to get too specific, I am looking at the abilities of these companies to continue generating new, fresh, cool, creative ideas. Which can't be an easy task these days.

So, yeah, I am actually talking about the continuing "character mills".

Once the comic book genre started getting some real attention and receiving a lot of interest, new companies were falling out of the sky. With that, a LOT of previously untapped ideas were put on page.

With this in mind, I would say, going back 10 or 15 years, I would like to see some of your opinions.

Criteria could be:

Appearance/Design-
(Which companies seem to be able to keep pumping out original, imaginitive looking characters?)

Powers/Abilities-
(Who is developing powers and abilities that haven't been seen before?)

Personality Types-
(For instance, Logan was obviously a new personality type when he was created.)

History and Fluff-
(Example, Sentry or Blue Marvel showing up with a ready-made history with fluff that seemed interesting.)

Goals and Motivation-
(Example, Thanos wooing Mistress Death, Galactus devouring planets, etc.)

^ I find the x-verse in particular a consistent and perhaps unrivaled factory of unique character concepts

I'm not sure about these days, but back in the 60's, Marvel was far more innovative, imo. Eg, a bickering superhero family; a Jekyll/Hyde monster as a hero; a "nut on a flying surfboard."

Around that time (and especially prior), it seemed DC couldn't come up with a character that didn't have "-man/-girl/-lad", etc in its name ("Matter Eating Lad"? Really?). Looking back, monikers like "Flash" or "Green Lantern" were ahead of their time.

However, with the retiring of Lee, the death of Kirby, and DC improving character development, and especially with all the rebooting both companies are doing, I'd say these days they're about equal.

^you silverman looks like the golden age vision

Marvel.

DC.

I was actually surprised how much Marvel "borrowed" from DC throughout the years.

it goes both ways

Originally posted by Horrificus
Appearance/Design-
(Which companies seem to be able to keep pumping out original, imaginitive looking characters?)
Eh, neither company is producing many new characters these days. I rarely, if ever, see a new character and think "wow, that's something new".

Originally posted by Horrificus
Powers/Abilities-
(Who is developing powers and abilities that haven't been seen before?) If we include Vertigo and Wildstorm, I'd say DC wins here for recent-ish characters. Jack Hawksmoor talks to and controls cities. Jenny Sparks & Jenny Quantum - spirits of the 20th and 21st centuries, with powers inspired by said centuries. Dream of the Endless...etc.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Personality Types-
(For instance, Logan was obviously a new personality type when he was created.)
Marvel probably has more original personalities. Most of DC's mainstays were created when heroes were boyscouts, and that legacy continues for the most part. Most of Marvel's personalities were revolutionary when they were created, but their recent stuff isn't anything more special than DC's.

Originally posted by Horrificus
History and Fluff-
(Example, Sentry or Blue Marvel showing up with a ready-made history with fluff that seemed interesting.)
Not really sure what this means/who and what would be applicable.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Goals and Motivation-
(Example, Thanos wooing Mistress Death, Galactus devouring planets, etc.)
It's pretty much only bad guys that have goals/motivations. All the good guys just want to protect Truth, Justice, and the American Way. Most of those bad guys just want to conquer shit, which isn't original. There's a few good examples on either side, including the two you mentioned. Also:
1. The Joker: Really just enjoys the game. His lack of motivation/goals is inventive in and of itself.
2. Krona: Wants to uncover the secret of the beginning of life, and would readily destroy life to get there.
3. Mxy: Just wants to phuck around.

To name a few interesting one's on DC's side.

Marvel mostly because of the fact that there are like a gazillion superman (SBP, Ultraman, superboy, Steel, Supergirl, The supermen from other earths and what not, superman dynasty i mean c'mon)/superman-like characters. It's just kinda crazy.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
Marvel mostly because of the fact that there are like a gazillion superman (SBP, Ultraman, superboy, Steel, Supergirl, The supermen from other earths and what not, superman dynasty i mean c'mon)/superman-like characters. It's just kinda crazy. I agree.

Marvel has a number of Superman characters too. Some of them are straight copies (Gladiator), some have an extra power, or fewer powers, but they're basically the same.

Marvel creating the first black superhero during the civil rights era,and other minority superheros and having them as core members was innovative and bold.

Both Marvel and Dc are about the same, but Marvel characters are more relate able as where Dc characters are more God like.

Originally posted by the Darkone
Marvel creating the first black superhero during the civil rights era,and other minority superheros and having them as core members was innovative and bold. And DC did women first, and arguably still do women more prominently.

Originally posted by the Darkone
Both Marvel and Dc are about the same, but Marvel characters are more relate able as where Dc characters are more God like. This has always been true, which is ironic since Marvel does the actual Gods scene bigger.

Originally posted by Cogito
Marvel has a number of Superman characters too. Some of them are straight copies (Gladiator), some have an extra power, or fewer powers, but they're basically the same. No, they are not. That's blatantly untrue.

Originally posted by Horrificus
going back 10 or 15 years

the problem is, this only reaches back to, what, '98? I can't do it justice, but MovieBob on the Escapist has a really good run down on how the industry sort of collapsed, at least in terms of intellectual property and risk taking, toward the end of the 90s. Not to mention, this is only a couple of years before the first Spider-Man movie, which massively changed the way the companies shaped their universes.

The big issue, imho, is that the last 10-15 years have been more about these companies trying to find a way to stay financially viable, be it through other entertainment tie-ins, a broader appeal to markets not normally attracted to comics, sweeping cross-title events, etc. They've developed a formula of what works for today's customer, and it really isn't risk taking or uniqueness. The closest you come to that is with twist reveals or redesigns of characters (or just a new person wearing an old costume).

Like, I'm not trying to look at the 90s with rose coloured glasses, but it was a far more imaginative time, with the 80s probably being the mecca of modern comic-dom, but since then, "unique" is not a word I would throw around about this industry.

Originally posted by the Darkone
Marvel creating the first black superhero during the civil rights era,and other minority superheros and having them as core members was innovative and bold.


Originally posted by Cogito
And DC did women first, and arguably still do women more prominently.

women, racial/ethnic minorities and GLBT issues are still a joke in comics, the latter often acting as a punch line for writers with the maturity of 13 year old boys (or, their target demographic).

obviously this isn't true in all cases, but you are seriously going to suggest a company that publishes Power Girl with a straight face is ahead of the times on women's issues?



EDIT:

also, this:

Originally posted by -Pr-
Neither. They both steal from each other.

Now if we're including companies other than the big two then we can talk.


Originally posted by -Pr-
I said neither was more imaginative than the other

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, they are not. That's blatantly untrue.

Gladiator
Kid Gladiator
Hyperion
Blue Marvel
Sentry (pre-Void)

All Superman knock-offs plus or minus a power or two.

Phuck, even Gladiator's name (Kallark) is a combination of Kal-El and Clark

Originally posted by Cogito
Gladiator
Kid Gladiator
Hyperion
Blue Marvel
Sentry (pre-Void)

All Superman knock-offs plus or minus a power or two.

Phuck, even Gladiator's name (Kallark) is a combination of Kal-El and Clark
Add Count Nefaria in that list.

Originally posted by Cogito
Gladiator
Kid Gladiator
Hyperion
Blue Marvel
Sentry (pre-Void)

All Superman knock-offs plus or minus a power or two.

Phuck, even Gladiator's name (Kallark) is a combination of Kal-El and Clark
Marvel's "borrowed" a few more character concepts :
Shi'ar Imperial Guard - Legion of Super Heroes
Chaos King - Nekron

Originally posted by Cogito
Gladiator
Kid Gladiator
Hyperion
Blue Marvel
Sentry (pre-Void)

All Superman knock-offs plus or minus a power or two.

Phuck, even Gladiator's name (Kallark) is a combination of Kal-El and Clark Two Gladiator characters with same basic power set but completely different character wise.


Hyperion is based off the god of the sun and also vastly different than the charcacter of Superman.


Blue Marvel is black and isn't like Superman.


Sentry always had the Void in him. Completely different personality, powers, abilities, and history.

Originally posted by 753
^you silverman looks like the golden age vision That's the non-Jewish side of the family

Originally posted by quanchi112
Two Gladiator characters with same basic power set but completely different character wise.


Hyperion is based off the god of the sun and also vastly different than the charcacter of Superman.


Blue Marvel is black and isn't like Superman.


Sentry always had the Void in him. Completely different personality, powers, abilities, and history.
Quan I love ya but come on!

Gladiator : Cold Breath, invulnerabiltiy, heat vision, flight, weakness to specific form of radiation, named "Kallark" (Kal' el, Clark)

Hyperion : 'atomic vision', invulnerability, flight, weakness to a specific form of radiation (argonite)

Sentry : this guy even has a stylized "S" on his chest

I'll give you Blue Marvel, he's not a direct clone but we all know what template he was based on.

EDIT
More Marvel borrowing
Vision - Martian Manhunter

Well Marvel did have the first flying, super strong, bullet proof hero in Namor so I guess that helps their case. Isn't that right Abhi..?

Originally posted by dmills
Well Marvel did have the first flying, super strong, bullet proof hero in Namor so I guess that helps their case. Isn't that right Abhi..?
LOL.

Wait, you got one for Team Marvel.

DC borrowing :
Aquaman - Namor

Marvel borrowing :
Magneto - Dr Polaris

Originally posted by Cogito
And DC did women first, and arguably still do women more prominently.


I'd dispute the 'still'. They have more solo women books, but there's a lot lot lot of major marvel female characters in teams, and probably more total. The X-men, the long-time best selling team, is full of important female characters (Jean, Storm, Rogue, Jubilee, etc. etc.)

Especially post-reboot, where DC's teams tend to be female-light.

I like that the measure of unique women in comics is how many titles they appear in...

Originally posted by Q99
I'd dispute the 'still'. They have more solo women books, but there's a lot lot lot of major marvel female characters in teams, and probably more total. The X-men, the long-time best selling team, is full of important female characters (Jean, Storm, Rogue, Jubilee, etc. etc.)

Especially post-reboot, where DC's teams tend to be female-light.
No doubt Marvel has many women, but they aren't necessarily treated with a ton of respect.

Sue Storm is a doormat.
Emma Frost is a ho.
Jean's mentally unstable.
Storm's legit.
etc.

IMO, DC has more of the "strong, independent, & capable" women.

Diana, obviously is one of the trinity.
Power Girl lead the JSA for a time, even with established veterans like Jay and Alan on the roster
etc.

Originally posted by zopzop
Quan I love ya but come on!

Gladiator : Cold Breath, invulnerabiltiy, heat vision, flight, weakness to specific form of radiation, named "Kallark" (Kal' el, Clark)

Hyperion : 'atomic vision', invulnerability, flight, weakness to a specific form of radiation (argonite)

Sentry : this guy even has a stylized "S" on his chest

I'll give you Blue Marvel, he's not a direct clone but we all know what template he was based on.

EDIT
More Marvel borrowing
Vision - Martian Manhunter The characters are completely different. That's the point. Gladiator might share the power set but is completely different than Kal-El.


So ? Character is different and many are invulnerable. It's like saying every dc brick is based off the Hulk while ignoring the characteristics that define the character.


An S on his does not mean clone. Lol. Powers different as well as the personality is vastly different.


The closest one is Gladiator but the characteristics that define him are vastly different.

Marvel people personal stakes in their characters by giving them personalilty and problems like everyday people. People could relate to them more. Marvel brought more depth to their characters.

Marvel ripping off:

Darkseid----Thanos; they even admit this.

Originally posted by Cogito
Power Girl lead the JSA for a time, even with established veterans like Jay and Alan on the roster

Power Girl's origin also involves the artist making her breasts larger and larger until the editor had to tell them to stop...

good example...

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Marvel ripping off:

Darkseid----Thanos; they even admit this.

You are wrong. Thanos also isn't like Darkseid wise personality nor are their powers the same.


Thanos is on another level IMO.

Originally posted by Oliver North
Power Girl's origin also involves the artist making her breasts larger and larger until the editor had to tell them to stop...

good example...

Boys will be boys...

I'm not arguing appearances, because that would be impossible. Character and personality I'd argue.

Thanos is a rip off of Darkseid, and this is common knowledge, even though Thanos has been written way better than Darkseid for past 15 yrs.

Superman clones:
Hyperion's
Gladiator
Kid Gladiator
Sentry
Count Nefaria
except for Blue Marvel the rest are clones, only a fanboy would say other wise.

Nova Corp - Green Lantern Corp
Deathstroke- Taskmaster/Captain America
Miracle Man- Captain Marvel
Impriex- Galactus
Aquaman-Namor
Lord Havok-Dr Doom

It's prettty safe to say both companies have copy from each other, hell that's how japnese Anime/Manga works also DBZ-Fist of the Northstar etc.

It's just that Marvel has develope their characeters better than Dc, even Thor a god can be relate able etc, as where Dc characters are god like

Originally posted by the Darkone
Thanos is a rip off of Darkseid, and this is common knowledge, even though Thanos has been written way better than Darkseid for past 15 yrs.

Superman clones:
Hyperion's
Gladiator
Kid Gladiator
Sentry
Count Nefaria
except for Blue Marvel the rest are clones, only a fanboy would say other wise.

Nova Corp - Green Lantern Corp
Deathstroke- Taskmaster/Captain America
Miracle Man- Captain Marvel
Impriex- Galactus
Aquaman-Namor
Lord Havok-Dr Doom

It's prettty safe to say both companies have copy from each other, hell that's how japnese Anime/Manga works also DBZ-Fist of the Northstar etc.

It's just that Marvel has develope their characeters better than Dc, even Thor a god can be relate able etc, as where Dc characters are god like No, but then again I'm clearly knowledgeable .


May 12, 2013 - 4 posts - 4 authors
Thanos' creator Jim Starlin, said he actually based Thanos off of Metron, not Darkseid. That's why Thanos always has a floating mobius chair.


The rest aren't clones since they are entirely different than Superman. Saying they are clones shows a lack of understanding the definition of the word clone.

Superman does have a lot of "clones" in terms of power sets in Marvel, but a lot of those clones are radically different in terms of characterization and their origins.

Power Girl's initial artistic designs and costumes are blatant fan service, but as far as her actual character goes, she's an incredibly well written character, especially after Infinite Crisis where her real origin is finally confirmed. Between JSA and her ongoing, Karen was probably my favorite heroine in DC behind Wonder Woman (who has had some lows in terms of writing quality, but still enjoyable for the most part).

I think DC speaks to the "hope of a better tomorrow" that most people have, hence they're godlike beings who walk among humanity and larger than life heroes. Conversely, Marvel's always been more along the lines of characters first, powers second (not saying DC doesn't have great characters because they clearly do). Stan Lee (and Kirby and Ditko among others) really helped revolutionize and humanize characters. And really, the entire X-Men mythos is such a brilliant concept that is still relevant to this day. I'm not a huge X-Men/mutant fan outside of a handful of specific characters, but they really struck a gold mine with them. After all, it's only within the past few years that the Avengers franchise finally exploded and became the main draw to the Marvel Universe.

I can't really pick which company is more unique over the other at the end of the day.

Originally posted by Oliver North
Power Girl's origin also involves the artist making her breasts larger and larger until the editor had to tell them to stop. And I thought chest expansion was one of her powers.

I cant really pick sides.

DC Space Operas, and how they build their Magical landscape is much defined than Marvel.

Marvel could write a rich Space Opera rivaling DC's , if they bring on a collaboration where the expansion Eternals, Titans, Shi'ar, Inhumans, Kree, and Skrulls.. in on going titles, instead of bringing macro titles for the sake of a big cheese event.

However Marvel's Paranormal Phenomena, and how it interacts with psychic astral realm, connecting with the mental scape of each individual is much more rich. Hell this shit, hits cosmic order when your write out the Phoenix in properly. But then again I, have always been a sucker a Psionic stories.

That, and how they tackle human evolution, and the persecution of mutants, with everyday racism being applied to the comics. Where's DC metagene, and how it applies to everyday humans is somewhat spiffy. But at least they are making an effort now in DCnU, with the whole Team 7 and the activation of Majestic.

I am picking landscape/plot themes, over characters. Because the characters themselves can not stand on their own, if the story is not properly written.

But if I had to choose. Neither Company. I would chose Image, and Valiant have more imaginative characters to my liking.

Originally posted by zopzop
DC.

I was actually surprised how much Marvel "borrowed" from DC throughout the years.

Doom Patrol, Legion, Superman, Batman, Dr. Fate, The Endless, etc... All characters that Marvel has borrowed from, even if it's just the basic concept.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
Marvel mostly because of the fact that there are like a gazillion superman (SBP, Ultraman, superboy, Steel, Supergirl, The supermen from other earths and what not, superman dynasty i mean c'mon)/superman-like characters. It's just kinda crazy.

DC is a lot more than just flying bricks. Try some Vertigo titles for once. DC is bigger on MAGIC than flying bricks.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Batman You might want to ask Zorro about it.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
You might want to ask Zorro about it.

I think Batman has had a bigger influence, no?

If that's the case, than the X-Men have had a faaaaaaaaaar larger influence on the medium and in pop culture than the Doom Patrol. And the Fantastic Four are infinitely more well known and developed than Challengers of the Unknown.

Let's face it, without one company, the other would have likely failed a long time ago.

Originally posted by "Id"

DC Space Operas, and how they build their Magical landscape is much defined than Marvel.

Marvel could write a rich Space Opera rivaling DC's , if they bring on a collaboration where the expansion Eternals, Titans, Shi'ar, Inhumans, Kree, and Skrulls.. in on going titles, instead of bringing macro titles for the sake of a big cheese event.

Not only that, but I like Marvel's interaction with Space Gods much more than DC. From Galactus, Celestials, Proemial Gods, and the Watchers etc.. They all play a huge part in the Cosmic Consonance, and have a big impact with the lower lifeforms.

I like the designs much more than Say Imperiex Prime, Anti-Monitor, or anything that can be classified as a Space God.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
If that's the case, than the X-Men have had a faaaaaaaaaar larger influence on the medium and in pop culture than the Doom Patrol. And the Fantastic Four are infinitely more well known and developed than Challengers of the Unknown.

Let's face it, without one company, the other would have likely failed a long time ago.

I never said Doom Patrol had a larger influence, I said basic concept at the start of their appearances. However as more unique characters, I think Doom Patrol (Grant Morrison) takes the cake.

My all time favorite powerset is Jack Hawksmoor, so I'm leaning towards DC, but Marvel has more characters which is obviously a great advantage.

I mean, Batroc has savate and jumps.

Originally posted by Golgo13
I never said Doom Patrol had a larger influence, I said basic concept at the start of their appearances. However as more unique characters, I think Doom Patrol (Grant Morrison) takes the cake.

The point is that virtually every character ever has been inspired in some way by another, whether it's someone from mythology, pulp fiction stories, literature, or other comics.

Sure, DC has the virtue of having a lot of these concepts and characters published before Marvel, but Marvel's writing changed the game completely, showcasing heroes as just normal people with real life problems thrust into extraordinary events, which definitely prompted DC to change things up.

Originally posted by Bentley
My all time favorite powerset is Jack Hawksmoor, so I'm leaning towards DC, but Marvel has more characters which is obviously a great advantage.

I mean, Batroc has savate and jumps.

Batroc is probably the coolest Frenchman ever published in a comic.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
The point is that virtually every character ever has been inspired in some way by another, whether it's someone from mythology, pulp fiction stories, literature, or other comics.

Sure, DC has the virtue of having a lot of these concepts and characters published before Marvel, but Marvel's writing changed the game completely, showcasing heroes as just normal people with real life problems thrust into extraordinary events, which definitely prompted DC to change things up.

I know, I wasn't debating that.

Originally posted by Golgo13
I think Batman has had a bigger influence, no?
Today? Yes, back in the day when Batman was ripped off and other heros were invented? Not so much.

Accusing people/companies to rip shit off of a character while said character is a ripoff himself and then kinda blur it out with "even if it's just the basic concept" is pretty dumb actually. Both have copied certain characters over the time from each other. And probably all famous characters are based on very old stories, there are like 7 different stories to tell and everything else is just reinterpretation/retelling, origins are in the same boat.

Who ultimately came up first with everything is unclear and honestly I don't give a **** if the characters are written well.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Superman does have a lot of "clones" in terms of power sets in Marvel, but a lot of those clones are radically different in terms of characterization and their origins.


I agree what you saying, even though Marvel Superman clones different characterization they are still clone of Superman, has for to powers, weakens and almost similar origins.

Both companies borrowed from one and another and put their spin there view of character in their eyes, like you said if they didn't one of the companies would be no more.

Originally posted by Cogito
No doubt Marvel has many women, but they aren't necessarily treated with a ton of respect.

Sue Storm is a doormat.
Emma Frost is a ho.
Jean's mentally unstable.
Storm's legit.
etc.

IMO, DC has more of the "strong, independent, & capable" women.

Diana, obviously is one of the trinity.
Power Girl lead the JSA for a time, even with established veterans like Jay and Alan on the roster
etc.

Well, I think it depends on whether you're talking pre or post boot.

Pre-boot, you had in the Batfamily, two Batgirls, huntress, batwoman, and Oracle, Oracle especially in a leadership position.

Now you've got Batwoman and Babs as Batgirl.

You also had a fair number of major B-list heroines wiped out, like Jade and Donna (who was co-leader of the JLA at the time of the reboot!).

And, say what you will about Emma, she's had a leadership role for some time. Though moving off of her, there's Carol Danvers, there's Monica Rambeau, She-Hulk... oh, and a ton of well-written teen female characters like half the Avengers Academy, 2/3rds of the Runaways, and so on.




Originally posted by Oliver North
Power Girl's origin also involves the artist making her breasts larger and larger until the editor had to tell them to stop...

good example...

That's only a myth, her breasts didn't really inflate over the course of her original series.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
The point is that virtually every character ever has been inspired in some way by another, whether it's someone from mythology, pulp fiction stories, literature, or other comics.

Sure, DC has the virtue of having a lot of these concepts and characters published before Marvel, but Marvel's writing changed the game completely, showcasing heroes as just normal people with real life problems thrust into extraordinary events, which definitely prompted DC to change things up.

Originally posted by the Darkone
I agree what you saying, even though Marvel Superman clones different characterization they are still clone of Superman, has for to powers, weakens and almost similar origins.

Both companies borrowed from one and another and put their spin there view of character in their eyes, like you said if they didn't one of the companies would be no more. What characters have similar origins ? You agree they aren't clones then say something you can't back.

Originally posted by the Darkone
Marvel creating the first black superhero during the civil rights era,and other minority superheros and having them as core members was innovative and bold.

Both Marvel and Dc are about the same, but Marvel characters are more relate able as where Dc characters are more God like. the introduction fo an internal cast of X-men also revolutionaized the franchise and to this date, marvel has a lot more international casts than DC.

Originally posted by Q99
I'd dispute the 'still'. They have more solo women books, but there's a lot lot lot of major marvel female characters in teams, and probably more total. The X-men, the long-time best selling team, is full of important female characters (Jean, Storm, Rogue, Jubilee, etc. etc.)

Especially post-reboot, where DC's teams tend to be female-light. and most current x-teams are led by women, two are essentially entirely female.

Originally posted by zopzop
Marvel's "borrowed" a few more character concepts :
Shi'ar Imperial Guard - Legion of Super Heroes
Chaos King - Nekron you'd be hardpressed to show which has taken more from the other.
.............................
Originally posted by Cogito
Marvel has a number of Superman characters too. Some of them are straight copies (Gladiator), some have an extra power, or fewer powers, but they're basically the same. sure, but the issue isnt how characters based on a superman (or any character's) template there are flying around altogether, DC creates hosts of teenaged, opposite gender, infant and even animal versions of their own characters in a scale unparalleled by marvel. almost all their big characters have like 4-5 different demography versions of themselves - superman, WW, Flash, MMH, aquaman, etc.

marvel has taken this up by making everyone who's ever been in the same room as the hulk some kindof hulk-like creature for retarded non-sensical reasons. wolverine is getting his clan too in the form of daken/x-23.

And Spidey.

Originally posted by Cogito
Eh, neither company is producing many new characters these days. I rarely, if ever, see a new character and think "wow, that's something new".

It's pretty much only bad guys that have goals/motivations. All the good guys just want to protect Truth, Justice, and the American Way. this is largely true, but the mutantverse to name one has broken away from it and given birth to the political superheroe in mainstream comics.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
And Spidey. yeah, spidey's clone drama itself can be seen an extremely degenerate form of the trope.

Of course, how legitimate these derived characters are depends on a lot of facors. robin's stand on their own and aren't minibatmans, batgirl, while an obivous teenage girl bataman, has likewise been developed beyond batman's shadow, but batwoman is an iredeemable garbage concept IMO.

Originally posted by Cogito
I completely agree that time period has to be taken into account, but entirely disagree with your Marvel favoritism here.

There's no way to tell. Even Superman was original back when he debuted. Aquaman? Wonder Woman (any Woman at that time was crazy original)? Green Lantern?

Both companies had very original characters when they started. Both have stolen enormously from the other. If you forced me to choose, I'd say DC because they're older and therefore probably had a few more completely original ideas.

Firstly Superman was FAR from original. The creators of Superman Siegal and Shuster did a review in 1931 for a sci fi fanzine on the novel Gladiator . The lead character of Gladiator ( Hugo Danner) was a guy who had super strength, impervious skin, was fast and could leap a city block. It was because of these glaring similarities that the first few dozen times they pitched their concept of Superman to publishers it was rejected because said publishers were afraid of being sued for plagiarism.

Hell even Batman wasn't original ( though it did draw it's influences from many sources). Supposedly influenced by the combination of Zorro, Sherlock Holmes, Doc Savage and the Shadow.

Spiderman is also hardly original. There was a Golden Age character called Tarrantula who used suction cups to walk on walls and who carried a "web gun". Several Golden age characters also had a "radar sense". As for Wolverine he's a feral, the ideas of werewolves and vampires ( also "ferals" ) is quite old, so what if they don't grow bones, they grow teeth and claws. In all honesty I think you would be very hard pressed to find a truly "original" concept in any fictional medium over the last few hundred years.

Originally posted by beatboks
In all honesty I think you would be very hard pressed to find a truly "original" concept in any fictional medium over the last few hundred years.

Danny the Street.

Also virtually everything in Axe Cop.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Danny the Street.

Also virtually everything in Axe Cop.

Danny the Street is hardly original either. There are a plethora of mythical /mystical places that have a presence and sentience of their own that can appear to be anywhere throughout fiction in history. the only difference it this one's a street and not a Forrest or a nook, or some other such.

Not familiar with Axe cop so I can't talk to that one.

^animated buildings and other artificial physical structures like houses, castles, hotel rooms, even cities are old news, danny is derived from them.

Originally posted by beatboks
Danny the Street is hardly original either. There are a plethora of mythical /mystical places that have a presence and sentience of their own that can appear to be anywhere throughout fiction in history. the only difference it this one's a street and not a Forrest or a nook, or some other such.

It's still rather unusual for a comic book hero, and a fairly new twist on the 'intelligent place' thing.

(And, come to think of it, mystic places that are in themselves smart rather than being controlled by some magic being or person are fairly rare too...)

So, yea, while 'there's nothing new under the sun,' applies to Danny, I'd still call him fairly original.





It's interesting, a story written by a five year old (now 8) and drawn by his 29-year old brother. So, it's got a lot of stuff mish-mashed together, the plot is weird and semi-stream of consciousness-esque, and so on.

Originally posted by Q99
It's still rather unusual for a comic book hero, and a fairly new twist on the 'intelligent place' thing.

(And, come to think of it, mystic places that are in themselves smart rather than being controlled by some magic being or person are fairly rare too...)
the animating mystical force is often imanent to the place or it's impossible to determine whether it's imanent or external to it like the hotel from the shining.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CEAQtwIwBg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DuHjFkD5Ekkw&ei=odKvUczbHOrLyAHqp4GABA&usg=AFQjCNGQaUhGqJTRq3Fle66nCkrtUWzTaA


Speaking of ripoffs, I'm just gonna leave this here lol....

Originally posted by Q99
That's only a myth, her breasts didn't really inflate over the course of her original series.

I'm not sure myth is the right word...

anyways, iirc Wiki had a link to Wood talking about this, but it isn't on Wiki anymore, so fine. It does talk about Wood having issues with the character because the editor thought the costume was sexist, so its hardly a stretch.

Anyways, my point was more about how little difference there is in the approach to women and minorities between companies rather than anything about Power Girl specifically.

Originally posted by Oliver North
I'm not sure myth is the right word...

anyways, iirc Wiki had a link to Wood talking about this, but it isn't on Wiki anymore, so fine. It does talk about Wood having issues with the character because the editor thought the costume was sexist, so its hardly a stretch.

Anyways, my point was more about how little difference there is in the approach to women and minorities between companies rather than anything about Power Girl specifically.

The dude's last name is Wood? Rofl

Originally posted by Bentley
My all time favorite powerset is Jack Hawksmoor, so I'm leaning towards DC, but Marvel has more characters which is obviously a great advantage.

I mean, Batroc has savate and jumps.

I've always wondered this for fun. Which company has more characters. With Vertigo, Wildstorm, Milestone, etc...

Originally posted by 753
and most current x-teams are led by women, two are essentially entirely female.

DC has BOP and Amanda as the leader of Suicide Squad.

But no one cares about those teams.

Originally posted by 753
But no one cares about those teams.

They've had numerous acclaimed series in the past and used to sell well when Gail took over.

And taking a look at the teams on both companies, looks like DC isn't female light. They show just as much, if not more women than Marvel does.

if you wnat to do a head count of female led or all-female teams, go ahead.

I did. Very briefly, so I could have missed some, but it was generally the same.

kirby/lee/ditko stomps

Originally posted by psycho gundam
kirby/lee/ditko stomps

It's hard to argue against this.

Originally posted by 753
But no one cares about those teams.

Come on, you cannot say Amanda Waller is not a solid character.

that actually gives me an idea http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t580217.html

You know IMO the Australian company Cyclone comics had the most original characters.

1. A guy who is an alien and a human descendant from witches occupying the same body granting the soul power of one and the psionic power of the other

2. A Mild TKer implanted with a device that draws power from a specially designed power cane so that his TK was at vast levels

3. A werewolf who was what he was because his gypsy parents were experimented on by the Third Reitch

4. A guy with super strength not from a super soldier serum but a virus that is lethal to 99% of people unless they have either a rare blood disorder ( like him) or are mentally insane ( like one of his enemies)

5. An alien space ranger who is a walking bipedal platypus with a bionic arm and a bad attitude

Just to name a few

Image

Originally posted by beatboks

4. A guy with super strength not from a super soldier serum but a virus that is lethal to 99% of people unless they have either a rare blood disorder ( like him) or are mentally insane ( like one of his enemies)
GURPS superheroes

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
Image

Vertigo! Morrison, Moore, and Ellis FTW.

Originally posted by zopzop
Marvel's "borrowed" a few more character concepts :
Shi'ar Imperial Guard - Legion of Super Heroes

you can blame Dave Cockrum for that.From what I heard, Nightcrawler was supposed to be a member of LOSH.But Cockrum decided to bring Nightcrawler into Marvel when he left DC.Only thing we can say now is that the LOSH would pawn the X-men.

Originally posted by zopzop
Chaos King - Nekron

I got to disagree with you on this one.Chaos King's back story of being the darkness and chaos that existed before everything else in creation came from Amatsu-Mikaboshi's story(Read the letters of Shinkiji Yukiko for more details).If you do happen to read the Letters of Shinkiji Yukiko, you'll be surprised on how Marvel was almost close to mimicking Amatsu-Mikaboshi of Japanese mythology.Not to mention CK came from the Japanese Gods called Amatsu-Kamis in MU.And if copy right is concerned, CK was based on a God of Mythology.And Gods being used in fictional writing falls in the "Public Domain" category.Therefore, CK is not a rip off of Nekron since he's back story is based on Japanese Mythology(public domain).

Der Bumpenheim

Originally posted by 753
GURPS superheroes

GURPS is love, GURPS is life.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=619983

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
DC inspired Marvel 25
Atom (October 1940) - Ant-Man (January 1962)
Batman (May 1939) - Moon Knight (August 1975)
Brainiac (July 1958) - Ultron (July 1968)
Catwoman (Spring 1940) - Black Cat (July 1979)
Challengers of the Unknown (Februar 1957) - Fantastic Four (November 1961)
Clayface (June 1940) - Sandman (September 1963)
Darkseid (November 1970) - Thanos (February 1973)
Deadshot (June 1950) - Bullseye (March 1976)
Deathstroke (December 1980) - Deadpool (February 1991)
Dick Grayson (April 1940) - Bucky Barnes (March 1941)
Doom Patrol (June 1963) - X-Men (September 1963)
Dr. Fate (May 1940) - Dr. Strange (July 1963)
Dr. Polaris (June 1963) - Magneto (September 1963)
Flash (January 1940) - Quicksilver (March 1964)
Green Lantern (July 1940) - Quasar (January 1978)
Green Lantern Corps (September 1959) - Nova Corps (March 1979)
Green Arrow (November 1941) - Hawkeye (September 1964)
Hawkman (January 1940) - Angel (September 1963)
Justice League of America (March 1960) - Squadron Supreme (February 1971)
Legion of Superheroes (April 1958) - Imperial Guard (October 1977)
Mister Mxyzptlk (September 1944) - Beyonder (May 1984)
Plastic Man (August 1941) - Elongated Man (May 1960) - Mr. Fantastic (November 1961)
Red Tornado (August 1968) - Vision Vision (October 1968)
Solomon Grundy (October 1944) - Hulk (May 1962) - Doomsday (November, 1992)
Superman (April 1938) - Captain Marvel (February 1940) - Miracleman (February 1954) - Captain Atom (March 1960) - Hyperion (October 1969) - Gladiator (October 1977) - Sentry (September 2000) - Blue Marvel (November 2008) - Sun God (May 2014)

Marvel inspired DC 12
Avengers (September 1963) - - Maximums (June 2005) - Retaliators (August 2014)
Captain America (March 1941) - The Guardian (April 1942)
Electro (February 1964) - Black Lightning (April 1977)
Ego (September 1966) - Mogo (May 1985)
Eternity (November 1965) - Kismet (September 1992)
Galactus (March 1966) - Imperiex (February 2000)
Ghost Rider (August 1972) - Atomic Skull (September 1976)
Man-Thing (May 1971) - Swamp Thing (July 1971)
Namor (April 1939) - Aquaman (November 1941)
Silver Surfer (March 1966) - Black Racer (July 1971)
Wasp (June 1963) - Bumblebee (December 1976)
Wolverine (October 1974) - Lobo (June 1983)

Others

Silver Surfer (March 1966) - Solar, Man of the Atom (October 1962)

I just counted once if the char inspired more than one character.

IMO DC is focused more on feats and pushing power levels and sets to what seems like PIS to casual readers. so they have really cool feats and imaginative ways to use powers.

I think the actual characters in marvel themselves are more unique and less archetypical overall.

so marvel

DC

Valiant, and Veritgo >>>> The rest.

I give a good point to DC Comics for their Section 8.

In Marvel you see a lot of highs and lows within specific books, like x-men. Mutants range from Kid Omega to ****ing Forearm.

DC has always been about grabbing other companies. Charlton, Wildstorm, to name a few. Now DC has merged Vertigo and WS in one universe. DC has this, IMO.

Kirby and Lee made the best characters and origins so there you have it

New Gods FTW!

Etrigan as well in DC, but the majority he made in Marvel. The man created worlds as well as races to inhabit them. He alone makes Marvel the best universe for characters

It's not like DC doesn't have all-star creators and best is subjective. Morrison's work is the best creator for me, and he's done his best work at DC.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
Kirby and Lee made the best characters and origins so there you have it


If only. Nearly all of them are copies of other characters.

Marvel and we are seeing it play out on the big screen with Disney. Marvel has more unique characters and it isn't close. DC is still relying on Batman and Superman due to their faithless company. Disney doesn't even have access to their complete library and they are continuing to hit them out of the park. Dr. Strange is another recent example of another marvel win.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Marvel and we are seeing it play out on the big screen with Disney. Marvel has more unique characters and it isn't close. DC is still relying on Batman and Superman due to their faithless company. Disney doesn't even have access to their complete library and they are continuing to hit them out of the park. Dr. Strange is another recent example of another marvel win.

Jack Kirby is one of the best creative minds IMO, if he were in his prime today, the stuff he could cut loose with on the indy labels would be next level.

Arm Fall Off Boy> everything else.

Bruce Timm and Paul Dini did a tremendous job during my formative years adapting DC comics into the DC Animated Universe, but Marvel having characters like Spider-Man, Daredevil, and, especially, the X-Men (Xavier comparing to MLK, Jr., and Magneto comparing to Malcolm X, for instance) gives them the edge in this debate.

Originally posted by John Murdoch
Bruce Timm and Paul Dini did a tremendous job during my formative years adapting DC comics into the DC Animated Universe, but Marvel having characters like Spider-Man, Daredevil, and, especially, the X-Men (Xavier comparing to MLK, Jr., and Magneto comparing to Malcolm X, for instance) gives them the edge in this debate.

How do you compare Xavier and Magneto to MLK and X?

Originally posted by SquallX
How do you compare Xavier and Magneto to MLK and X?

magneto was the 60s/70s comic book equivalent of the militant antisocial movement of the black panther/black power movement except his cause was mutants.

Malcolm x


Xavier professes the cant we all get along concept of MLK, and bring the fight to include all races in society as equal