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Thor
Beta Ray Bill

vs

Orion
Wonder Woman

The fight takes place in a room double the size of a jail sell. The tool is made out of Adamantium.

Who wins?

I meant to say the ROOM is made out of Adamantium.

Who's the tool? Thor?

Thor bfr's Wondy, Bill and Thor go OZ on Orion

Originally posted by carver9
jail sell.

/snicker

If either Mjolnir or Stormbreaker crash against the adamantium cell, the reverb is going to phuck with everyone.

How much are they selling the jail for?

On that note, how much do they sell jails for in real life? You'd think they'd give some sort of sale on it due to all the murders and sodomy.

Originally posted by carver9
Thor
Beta Ray Bill

vs

Orion
Wonder Woman

The fight takes place in a room double the size of a jail cell.
The room is made out of adamantium.

Who wins?


mmm

I'm just trying to decide who attacks first, Beta Ray Bill or Orion, and if lightning is used early on or pure physical force.

Also whether this is supposed to be 2010 Wonder Woman or DCnU.

If 2010 Wonder Woman, Diana rips the adamantium door of the jail cell off its hinges, expertly bends it around Thor, and uses it to hold him helplessly immobile while he asks, disbelieving, how any woman from ANY world could do that to him.

Beta Ray Bill is more of a problem.
From what I understand, he is far more prone to use his exotic powers versus simply brawling.

On the other hand, that might be a moot point.

In such a close quarters scenario, there's no such thing as Bill and Orion doing anything but going right for each other's throat, nearly desperate to lay hands on each other.

Diana can simply bide her time until the opportunity to capture Bill in the lasso presents, as, again, he'll be completely occupied with Orion.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If 2010 Wonder Woman, Diana rips the adamantium door of the jail cell off its hinges, expertly bends it around Thor, and uses it to hold him helplessly immobile while he asks, disbelieving, how any woman from ANY world could do that to him.

Trolling?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Trolling?

No, it just depends on which Diana shows up for the fight.

DC is almost schizophrenic in its portrayals of her.

She goes through cycles where she can feasibly pull the moon by herself, and could certainly in that state bend primary adamantium; conversely she goes through stages where Deathstroke the Terminator, a Captain America level opponent, is presented as a legitimate challenge, and she must push herself to the limit to get past him. And, unfortunately, the latter is what most people think of when they think of Wonder Woman, doubtless due to her portrayal on the Lynda Carter show, even though that show is now nearly 40 years old, and that fight with Deathstroke roughly 20.

If even THAT weren't enough, Wonder Woman's major strength showings aren't featured in her own comics, they're featured in combined titles, usually as part of group efforts.

Even so, going by her average over the past decade, Diana has a greater strength rating than Thor. Combined with the fact that she has resistance to and some limited controls specifically over magic lightning, no, what I posited actually is a very real possibility.

All of these guys could bend adamantium.

Don't see how it would help them in this fight.

Originally posted by curryman
All of these guys could bend adamantium.

Don't see how it would help them in this fight.



I have seen nothing in the past 20 years to suggest to me that Thor can bend primary adamantium and challenge you to present to me a strength feat within the past 2 decades to prove, or even reasonably suggest, that he could.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
No, it just depends on which Diana shows up for the fight.

DC is almost schizophrenic in its portrayals of her.

She goes through cycles where she can feasibly pull the moon by herself, and could certainly in that state bend primary adamantium; conversely she goes through stages where Deathstroke the Terminator, a Captain America level opponent, is presented as a legitimate challenge, and she must push herself to the limit to get past him. And, unfortunately, the latter is what most people think of when they think of Wonder Woman, doubtless due to her portrayal on the Lynda Carter show, even though that show is now nearly 40 years old, and that fight with Deathstroke roughly 20.

If even THAT weren't enough, Wonder Woman's major strength showings aren't featured in her own comics, they're featured in combined titles, usually as part of group efforts.

Even so, going by her average over the past decade, Diana has a greater strength rating than Thor. Combined with the fact that she has resistance to and some limited controls specifically over magic lightning, no, what I posited actually is a very real possibility.

First of all, she's never pulled the moon by herself and explicitly can't based on what we've seen. Not even Superman could for a large chunk of Post-Crisis DC. You just posted a cropped scan of her doing it with Kyle and Superman, so lost a lot of credibility there from the get go. Tempted to just ignore you and stop here if that's any indication of how this is gonna go.

She does not have a higher strength rating then Thor, lay off that crack cocaine brother.

Near the end of Gail's run Wonder Woman's gauntlets was able to randomly summon Zeus' lightning. I'm unclear how that will help her bend Adamantium around Thor while he just stands there apparently and watches.

And no, even if she was able to pull the moon solo (Definitely can't), that doesn't mean she can bend/break Adamantium.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I have seen nothing in the past 20 years to suggest to me that Thor can bend primary adamantium and challenge you to present to me a strength feat within the past 2 decades to prove, or even reasonably suggest, that he could.

I don't believe anyone in this thread can bend primary Adamantium but I'm curious as to why you're limiting it to 20 years?

Do Thor's feats magically become invalid after a certain period of time?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
First of all, she's never pulled the moon by herself and explicitly can't based on what we've seen. Not even Superman could for a large chunk of Post-Crisis DC. You just posted a cropped scan of her doing it with Kyle and Superman, so lost a lot of credibility there from the get go. Tempted to just ignore you and stop here if that's any indication of how this is gonna go.



Never said she pulled the moon herself.
Stated she feasibly could.

Not basing it on the image posted a few moments ago.

Basing it on the following, and simple knowledge of how many times more massive planet Earth is than the Moon, how even a fifth of the Earth's weight is greater than that.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider



how many times more massive planet Earth is than the Moon ...

even a fifth of the Earth's weight is greater ...



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MOON

Mass

Metric: 73,476,730,924,573,500,000,000 kg
Scientific Notation: 7.3477 x 1022 kg
By Comparison: 0.0123 x Earth
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/planets/profile.cfm?Object=Moon&Display=Facts

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I have seen nothing in the past 20 years to suggest to me that Thor can bend primary adamantium and challenge you to present to me a strength feat within the past 2 decades to prove, or even reasonably suggest, that he could.

Why the last 20 years?

Thor had the Odinforce for 12 years, making any of those feats invalid.

He had a span of 3-4 years where his own series was on hiatus due to 90s financial/creative mismanaging. Then you had a year of depoweringer added on top of that.

Which gives Thor a wholesome of 3 years worth of strengthfeats, the last 20 years. A pretty tall order considering that he normally wields a weapon in combat.

Your making an untrue assumption that they are all pulling an equal amount, Diana and Manhunter are not as strong as superman

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Your making an untrue assumption that they are all pulling an equal amount, Diana and Manhunter are not as strong as superman


I'm NOT making that assumption.

That's precisely why I went through the trouble of pulling NASA statistics.

Assuming equal strength would equate to each member pulling 1/3rd the Moon.


I assigned Diana 1/5th simply for the sake of argument.

Assume she is only pulling 1/10th the mass of the Earth there, with Superman and Martian doing 90 PERCENT of the work.


That 10% Diana is handling would then STILL be more than the mass of the Moon.

How low do you want to go with this?




I don't think you'll find this particular subargument winnable, Pym.

If you're allowing that trio moved the Earth, you've got to really, REALLY downgrade Diana's strength relative to J'onnz and Clark before you can say what Rage just said.

More than makes any sense to do.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus


Near the end of Gail's run Wonder Woman's gauntlets was able to randomly summon Zeus' lightning. I'm unclear how that will help her bend Adamantium around Thor while he just stands there apparently and watches.



You make an interesting comment here without knowing it.

The original poster of this thread (at least as I am typing this, it may have changed even before I finish) has not yet specified whether this is 2010 Wonder Woman, or the DCnU version. If it IS the DCnU version, you should be aware that her origin has changed, that Diana is now the true daughter of Zeus through Zeus and her mom making out. You should also be aware that the gauntlets now reign in Diana's full power, and that when they are taken off, she gets a boost in physical strength.

Significantly, she last took off her bracelets to fight ... a pantheon god.

So, yeah, Zeus's power, magic lightning, gods, gauntlet channeling, all that ...
they can and HAVE added up to Diana displaying multiplied levels of physical strength.

But that's DCnU Wonder Woman, and Carver hasn't clarified if that's who he meant.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Never said she pulled the moon herself.
Stated she feasibly could.

Not basing it on the image posted a few moments ago.

Basing it on the following, and simple knowledge of how many times more massive planet Earth is than the Moon, how even a fifth of the Earth's weight is greater than that.

Sorry but posting that cropped scan right under your post was somewhat confusing.

A few issues before that, Kyle/Superman/Diana barely pulled the moon (Couldn't do it again).

Together with the fact that in the scene you posted, the water mass of Earth was displaced, the JLA were actually failing until Kyle stepped in IIRC and I'm going to go with Diana being unable to pull the Earth solo.

Maybe she could under extreme circumstances but I think there was a reason it was only ever Kyle/Superman doing any of the solo heavy lifting. At least imo. Not saying it isn't impossible (Nothing is in comics) but I don't think your evidence necessarily supports and it hardly proves she could easily bend Adamantium.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Sorry but posting that cropped scan right under your post was somewhat confusing.

A few issues before that, Kyle/Superman/Diana barely pulled the moon (Couldn't do it again).

Together with the fact that in the scene you posted, the water mass of Earth was displaced, the JLA were actually failing until Kyle stepped in IIRC and I'm going to go with Diana being unable to pull the Earth solo.

Maybe she could under extreme circumstances but I think there was a reason it was only ever Kyle/Superman doing any of the solo heavy lifting. At least imo. Not saying it isn't impossible (Nothing is in comics) but I don't think your evidence necessarily supports and it hardly proves she could easily bend Adamantium.
They didn't barely moved the moon. They moved it in between a few sentences.

Seeing how the entire mass of water on earth is about 0.02% of earth's mass and they were weakened especially superman and they actually moved the earth in orbit, its still a big feat. They were losing earth's orbit after they moved it in the orbit.

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15990118_jla_75_-_kebbin_30.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15990119_jla_75_-_kebbin_38.jpg

Originally posted by bluewaterrider


has resistance to and some limited controls specifically over magic lightning ...


Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus


Near the end of Gail's run Wonder Woman's gauntlets was able to randomly summon Zeus' lightning. I'm unclear how that will help her bend Adamantium around Thor while he just stands there apparently and watches.



Just explained above how that becomes significant if the OP had DCnU Wonder Woman in mind. For 2010 Wonder Woman, however, the relevance of my statement is that Diana has the ability to deflect, absorb, redirect, or resist magic lightning, of the kind, presumably, that Beta Ray Bill and Thor are wont to throw out, to the point of nearly ignoring it and blithely continuing about her business. At least to judge from her most recent showing against magic lightning.

Wonder Woman #600:


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14300973
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14300976


Superman is stopped cold; Diana keeps on going.

Yes, based on that showing, I can certainly see Diana dutifully tank one of Thor's specialty dishes and use his surprise to gain decisive mechanical advantage, giving Thor much the same treatment Etrigan received here, only with the adamantium of the jail cell we're talking about, and not the steel hull of this handy car:

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus


Sorry but posting that cropped scan right under your post was somewhat confusing.



Apology accepted.

I suppose if someone else were to post that they would be intending that JLAv1#58 to stand as proof of her moon-pulling prowess.
My thinking is she was part of a trio that famously pulled 81 TIMES that amount of mass, besides being fabled to have "the strength of the Earth itself", so nobody should be giving that much of a thought.

Moreover, this a forum with some VERY dedicated and much exposed fans.
There isn't much you'd expect to get by with here.
Generally, you can bet if you see something from me that I think I have a very good reason for having put it there.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus


A few issues before that, Kyle/Superman/Diana barely pulled the moon (Couldn't do it again).


JLA v1 #58. Terror Incognita.
I think you might want to examine that story and the context of the statement more carefully. It wasn't merely that they needed to move the Moon.

They needed to move it before the White Martians, who had beaten every other hero group on Earth, snapped to their plan.

And they needed to move it at speed.

And after they moved it at speed, they needed to make sure that they quickly pulled out and put it back into proper orbit before its gravitational effects, increased greatly by bringing it so near, into Earth's very atmosphere, wrecked irreversible damage on Earth itself.

Their challenge wasn't merely moving the Moon from point A to point B.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

Together with the fact that in the scene you posted, the water mass of Earth was displaced, the JLA were actually failing until Kyle stepped in IIRC and I'm going to go with Diana being unable to pull the Earth solo.

Maybe she could under extreme circumstances but ...


I'm not making the assertion here in this thread that Diana can pull the Earth solo. I AM making the assertion that she can pull the MOON solo, but, as stated a little while ago, and backed up by Nasa's own official website, that's only 1/80th as hard as moving planet Earth, if that.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus


I think there was a reason it was only ever Kyle/Superman doing any of the solo heavy lifting. At least imo. Not saying it isn't impossible (Nothing is in comics) but ...


I think there were reasons, too, none of them valid.

Superman gets even the strength feats others can handle with ease typically.
There's generally no good intrinsic story validation for that.
4th Wall? Certainly. The powers that be feel Superman the showboat will bring in the most money.

At least that's been the case throughout much of DC history.

Are these people right?
I don't know.

I really don't think so.
I see on numerous websites how excited fans have become in recent years noting that some of THEIR favorite characters are getting screentime and properly awesome things to do. Doesn't seem coincidence that DC seems to be reaping better sales now because of that.

Damn, I bet Rage feels like a complete idiot right now.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

I don't think your evidence necessarily supports and it hardly proves she could easily bend Adamantium.

Is there really such a thing as proof when you're dealing with non-objective reality? Your statement is pretty much unfalsifiable.

Supporting it? Don't know about you; pretty sure a lot of people will accept that a character who can move several times the mass of Earth's moon (JLA #75v1) is strong enough to bend even fantastically hard metal.

Heck, Curryman's statement proves people think that even WITHOUT feats to back these characters up, let alone things of the magnitude Diana's dealt with.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I don't think you'll find this particular subargument winnable, Pym

Ahh, a challenge then,

Lifting a Planet /=/ Moving a Planet

Matter can break gravitational fields by accelerating in a frictionless environment until mass of the matter > the mass of the gravitational field

Ie. Moving a moving moon /=/ moving a stationary weight

Or

We agree her best showings much like Supes/CM, Bladam lifting infinite, Thor lifting the nine realms, Herc lifting the Sky.... Are high showings and are not to be taken seriously for debates...

She has solid physical strength, but she isn't the strongest on the field

I don't see the difference in strength making any notable difference. Enchanted uru hammers on the other hand...

Actually I dunno. Because Orion has the motherbox and Diana has great equipment herself.

Carver give her the fkn sword uhuh

Originally posted by abhilegend
They didn't barely moved the moon. They moved it in between a few sentences.

Seeing how the entire mass of water on earth is about 0.02% of earth's mass and they were weakened especially superman and they actually moved the earth in orbit, its still a big feat. They were losing earth's orbit after they moved it in the orbit.

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15990118_jla_75_-_kebbin_30.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15990119_jla_75_-_kebbin_38.jpg Whats up with Hal in that scan? Assuming that is Hal.

That's Kyle.

Oh? I thought Kyle was the one unconscious and the glowing green guy was Hal...somehow. All right makes sense now.

The stipulations of this match hurt Wonder Woman most of all, by far. Her superhuman speed and agility will be severely neutered. As such, Im voting for Thor and BRB to win here.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Ahh, a challenge then,

Lifting a Planet /=/ Moving a Planet

Matter can break gravitational fields by accelerating in a frictionless environment until mass of the matter > the mass of the gravitational field

Ie. Moving a moving moon /=/ moving a stationary weight



Whether or not what you wrote above is true, it's not an answer to what you were trying to argue here:

Originally posted by pym-ftw
You're making an untrue assumption that they are all pulling an equal amount, Diana and Manhunter are not as strong as superman

You were trying to use THAT as an argument that Diana is not strong enough to move the moon solo.
THAT was the subargument I don't think you'll be able to win, if we're allowing Diana, Manhunter, and Superman used true Earth-moving force in JLA75.

For if they did, they moved a mass 81 times greater than the moon itself.
Meaning if Diana moved even 1/50th of the mass of the Earth as her contribution in JLA75, she still has more than enough strength to move the Moon solo.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Sorry but posting that cropped scan right under your post was somewhat confusing.

A few issues before , Kyle/Superman/Diana barely pulled the moon (Couldn't do it again).

Together with the fact that in the scene you posted , the water mass of Earth was displaced, the JLA were actually failing until Kyle stepped in IIRC and I'm going to go with Diana being unable to pull the Earth solo ...





Originally posted by bluewaterrider


JLA v1 #58. Terror Incognita.
I think you might want to examine that story and the context of the statement more carefully. It wasn't merely that they needed to move the Moon.

They needed to move it before the White Martians, who had beaten every other hero group on Earth, snapped to their plan.

And they needed to move it at speed.

And after they moved it at speed, they needed to make sure that they quickly pulled out and put it back into proper orbit before its gravitational effects, increased greatly by bringing it so near, into Earth's very atmosphere, wrecked irreversible damage on Earth itself.

Their challenge wasn't merely moving the Moon from point A to point B.



Here are some scans from JLA58 to help people appreciate the context a bit better. Note that the lone word box of the original panoramic moon moving scene (which actually shows Earth in focus, too) was reaffixed.

Note as you said before, and as I alluded to myself earlier in this thread by saying her JLA feats are shared ones, this was not a solo effort, rather Kyle, Clark, and Diana working in concert.

Main point of posting this though, is to refute the idea this was something they could barely do. It wasn't. They weren't slowly ponderously straining against this thing as the JLA75 trio were shown doing for Earth.
No, this thing (the Moon) was moving fast. They HAD to move it fast -- they needed to bring it from its normal orbital position to inside Earth's atmosphere to activate their fire trap before the White Martian could realize what was happening and escape by flying off.





Lunatic Showdown


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13808227
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13808232
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13808233


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13808236
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13808238

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14328747
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14328752
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14328783


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Story: "Terror Incognita"
Source: JLA #58, Volume 1
Writer: Mark Waid
Penciller: Mike Miller
Date: November 2001
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/JLA_Vol_1_58

Thor and Bill. Two magic lightning users in a room that's a small, enclosed, indestructible conductor. Eesh...

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
She goes through cycles.

Really? You're bringing up her cycles?

Originally posted by Raisen
Really? You're bringing up her cycles?


I brought it up there, at least.

Something you don't understand?

Might be worth it to point out I'm not the only one who questions Thor's chances in a fight of this sort ...

http://www.comicvine.com/thor/4005-2268/forums/why-does-everyone-think-thor-cannot-fight-532322/

Originally posted by bluewaterrider


Diana rips the adamantium door of the jail cell off its hinges, expertly bends it around Thor, and uses it to hold him helplessly immobile while he asks, disbelieving, how any woman from ANY world could do that to him.




Thor doesn't strike me as one who takes women all that seriously in a fight, either.

This episode concerning Tarene reads like something you might see in a 1940s comic, but seems completely in character for Thor ... at least from what I've read.

Besides this scene with Tarene, compare Thor in Secret Wars

("Mayhap woman -- when icicles adorn Surtur's fiery realm!"



and Thor in Marvel Team Up #116

(Art thou mad, Spider-Man? To take arms against one so sweet, so fair so ...)




He doesn't seem to have changed much or learned from any mistakes in all this time. I don't seem him taking Diana seriously enough soon enough in the midst of an in-character fight to realistically win against her.