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Heard Vader was in his prime during ROTJ, so in a fight in the middle of nowhere with only these 2 on an uninhabited planet, who takes this?This is Galen during the final level of TFU I.

Vader for the win.

Probably Galen narrowly. I'd consider ANH Vaders prime though.

The RotJ novelization has Vader musing he's in his prime. It'll take me a little bit to find the quote, but yeah.

Edit: Found it pretty fast:

Lord Vader did not mind waiting, though, nor was he even aware of it. For it was an honor, and a noble activity, to kneel at his ruler's feet. He kept his eyes inward, seeking reflection in his own bottomless core. His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. He felt engorged with this power; it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground ... but he would wait. For his Emperor was not ready; and his son was not ready, and the time was not yet. So he waited.

-Return of the Jedi

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The RotJ novelization has Vader musing he's in his prime. It'll take me a little bit to find the quote, but yeah.

Edit: Found it pretty fast:

Lord Vader did not mind waiting, though, nor was he even aware of it. For it was an honor, and a noble activity, to kneel at his ruler's feet. He kept his eyes inward, seeking reflection in his own bottomless core. His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. He felt engorged with this power; it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground ... but he would wait. For his Emperor was not ready; and his son was not ready, and the time was not yet. So he waited.

-Return of the Jedi
I would put my money on Vader, but it'll be close.

Originally posted by Vensai
I would put my money on Vader, but it'll be close.
It would be a good fight, but Vader would win every time, in my opinion.

Vader is a beast.

Probably still Marek imo.

I'd go with Vader 6/10 then.

http://i43.tinypic.com/6o39yh.jpg



Vader is a far better foe in ESB than in ANH, and he is greater in RotJ than in ESB.

Yeeeeah.

ROTJ Vader...did lose to Luke though. Yes it was fairly circumstantial, but there's no way I can view ROTJ Luke as that close to Marek.

Also I'd put my money down on ROTS Dooku being fairly close if not superior to ROTJ Vader...and yet people think Marek would demolish him apparently. (I disagree)

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
ROTJ Vader...did lose to Luke though. Yes it was fairly circumstantial, but there's no way I can view ROTJ Luke as that close to Marek.
In a duel, yes he did. Luke muses how Vader could have killed him with his powers (ie telekinesis), but they were equal in terms of swordmastery.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Also I'd put my money down on ROTS Dooku being fairly close if not superior to ROTJ Vader...and yet people think Marek would demolish him apparently. (I disagree)
I always go back and forth on Vader vs Dooku. Dooku has a slim advantage in the skill department, should be slightly faster, and can use lightning. Vader is more powerful, stronger, and is more unpredictable.

Vader would win 6/10, in my opinion, but it'd be very, very close.

Really? I see Vader vs. Dooku being fast and quick on the point with Vader taking it. Vader has killed many adversaries and has already beaten Dooku when he was much weaker. And unless I'm mistaken ROTJ Vader's statement at being in his prime should take into account his pre-Vader stages of his life. As for Vader vs. Luke, I recall Luke stating that if Vader didn't hold back he would have been destroyed easily, just that Vader's conflicted emotions for his son got in the way.

Vader won't take Dooku with any kind of ease.

Why? What does Dooku have over Vader, besides lightning that I'm sure Vader would have no problems with.

Speed and skill. Not by big amounts, but again, Vader's advantage in telekinesis isn't very big either.

According to Fightsaber, Dooku is one of the greatest dueling master the galaxy has ever seen.

That's a pretty nice accolade.

Marek whooped his ass in TFU, he'll do it again by RotJ. Vader lost to freaking Luke. Apparently he got worse in those 5 years.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
In a duel, yes he did. Luke muses how Vader could have killed him with his powers (ie telekinesis), but they were equal in terms of swordmastery.

Not doubting you but if you have the ROTJ novel handy could you post a quote?



I always think Dooku could capitalize on his limited mobility and eventually overtake Vader.

Hmm, well Dooku vs. Vader should be another thread. As for Galen vs. Vader, what rating would you give Vader? 7-8/10?

Originally posted by The Merchant
Hmm, well Dooku vs. Vader should be another thread. As for Galen vs. Vader, what rating would you give Vader? 7-8/10?

I say Galen still takes it 6.5/10

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I say Galen still takes it 6.5/10

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Not doubting you but if you have the ROTJ novel handy could you post a quote?
It's from The Courtship of Princess Leia actually:

Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion's spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield. So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me. Who had Luke been kidding?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I say Galen still takes it 6.5/10
Based on what?

Originally posted by The Merchant
Hmm, well Dooku vs. Vader should be another thread. As for Galen vs. Vader, what rating would you give Vader? 7-8/10?
Vader for a 8/10 majority.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Not doubting you but if you have the ROTJ novel handy could you post a quote? I do have the novel, and no such quote exists. There does exist quotes from Vader's own perspective that Luke was genuinely defeating him--"compromising his evil" was also used (I always thought that sounded weird)--and Luke won fair and square.


No doubt a certain intrepid poster is about to argue otherwise, but the perspective of the assessment matters. If the argument is about which character would defeat which, then both need to be considered. In this case, Luke's thoughts from Courtship stand second place to Vader's own thoughts from RotJ. Vader himself admitted--to himself-- that Luke was kicking his ass despite his best efforts to stop him. Luke's future pondering are just modesty and speculation on his part.

RotJ Luke>RotJ Vader. Marek's not mentioned at this point in canon, but considering Vader's piss-poor performance in the film, he definitely started slacking following his ass-rape at Marek's large, muscular, electric paenus hands.

Or Vader was just not as good as Marek. Ockham's razor and all that.

Luke never won fair and square, he won by ''tapping'' into the dark side. Before that, they were equals.

Helluva rebuttal. What's your point? They were equals, and then they were not. How is that not fair and square? Luke used everything he had available against Vader--himself. And Vader used everything he had against Luke--himself. How is using the Dark Side to overcome a stalemate not fair? Shouldn't Vader's previous superiority be disqualified because he was using the Dark Side? You don't get to call unfairsies just because it doesn't favor your stance.


Even when they were equals, Vader was considering his possible defeat:
"For the first time, the thought was entering Vader's consciousness that his son might best him... This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in... And now he wanted revenge...

This accusation really made Vader angry. He could tolerate much from this insolent child, but this was insufferable..."


This is followed by the lightsaber-throwing scene where Luke is on the catwalk. There's Vader getting pissed--"tapping the Dark Side". Is that not unfair? Or is it fair for Vader cuz he was using that advantage the whole time? If tapping the Dark is fair for Vader, it's fair for Luke. No holds-barred, everything you got. When Vader taps the Dark, Luke stumbles beneath the platform. When Luke taps the Dark, he brings Vader to his knees and lops off his hand. Or is that not "fair"?


Incidentally, when Marek used the Dark Side, he was Vader's inferior. When he turned all Jedi-y, he became superior. But I guess tapping the Light isn't fair either.


EDIT: I think I'll start keeping count of how many times this happens. It seems about once a year, a new member comes in and argues that Vader held back against Luke, or that Obi-Wan "defeated" Anakin, and I end up doing that^. Seriously, does no one else have a copy of the novelizations?

...

Logic tells us that when a Jedi uses the dark side, it fuels their power.

Qui-Gon was, in the TPM novelization, confirmed as Kenobi's superior, but was clearly inferior to Maul. When Kenobi tapped into the dark side, he was able to fight Maul as an equal.

Point is, if somones makes a TPM Kenobi vs thread, unless stated in the OP, you're not gonna take his little ''burst of anger-performance'' into account, and neither are you Luke's.

Way to ignore the fact that they were on "equal" footing prior to Luke's outburst. Equal in that Vader was having frightening doubts as to his ability to defeat Luke.


And that's another one! Kenobi and Maul. Kenobi tapped the Dark and fought Maul on equal footing... until Maul promptly kicked his ass down the shaft:

"The battle wore on, and for a time it was fought evenly. But Darth Maul was the stronger of the two... Bit by bit he pressed him back... Obi-Wan could sense his body weakening...
Crying out in fury, he cut triumphantly at the Sith Lord's horned head, a killing blow. And missed completely."

You're not gonna take his burst of anger in to account because he still lost. Fair and square. One was stronger than the other. Light or Dark, Maul was stronger. Light or Dark, Luke was stronger. Luke was so close to victory prior to his outburst that he needed to shut off his saber lest killing his father corrupt him. You don't do that if you're inferior. So threatening was Luke's strength that Vader experienced fear and humiliation. All that--prior to Luke's outburst.

Light Luke makes Vader scared.
Pissed Luke utterly destroys Vader.

That's a discrepancy in power that can't be dismissed with a "well he's not supposed to be tapping the Dark."

facepalm

Way to quote the TPM novelization out of context.

The battle wore on, and for a time it was fought evenly. But Darth Maul was the stronger of the two and was driven by a frenzy that surpassed even the frantic determination that fueled Obi-Wan.

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/895a3a34-4bfd-4328-89bd-bf2ff9cea8ae_zps30c5067e.jpg

You're scripting the fight.

No I was abridging it. Hence the numerous ellipses. Way to use your misunderstanding to ignore the rest of my post.

Also note the use of the conjunction 'and' after the word "two".

Originally posted by Intrepid37

You're scripting the fight.

You're really good at this. Keep up the good work, and you'll convince everybody.

Sure.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Luke was so close to victory prior to his outburst that he needed to shut off his saber lest killing his father corrupt him.


That from the book?

Originally posted by ares834
That from the book? After Vader went tumbling down the stairs, Luke became "heady with his own power."

"And then another thought emerged... he could destroy the Emperor, too. Destroy them both and rule the galaxy. Avenge and conquer.
It was a profound moment for Luke. Dizzying. Yet he did not swoon. Nor did he recoil.
He took one step forward."

Enter the passage about Vader's surprise and fear. Luke "towered" above Vader. But then the Emperor f*cks it all up by encouraging Luke, thus allowing for:

"His brief exultation, his microsecond of dark clarity-gone, now, in a wash of indecision, veiled enigma. Cold awakening from a passionate flirtation.
He took a step back, lowered his sword, relaxed, and tried to drive the hatred from his being.
In that instant, Vader attacked."

He lowers his sword first, then after Vader attacks--he "bound the boys blade with his own, but Luke disengaged and leaped to the safety of an overhead gantry."

Per novelization, Luke didn't gain any sort of advantage and the reason why Vader fell down the stairs was because he was taken by surprise.

And the text in which he feels ''humiliation'' is non-canon.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's from The Courtship of Princess Leia actually:

Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion's spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield. So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me. Who had Luke been kidding?

Except exempts from the ROTJ seem to suggest otherwise.


http://pds17.egloos.com/pds/201003/14/97/c0056197_4b9cf94a96bd3.png



Darth Sidious would likely take Starkiller with an 8:10 ratio. No incarnation of Vader would be able to defeat Starkiller with an 8/10.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Except exempts from the ROTJ seem to suggest otherwise.
Exempts contradicted by the movie and taken out of context?

How 'bout reading the text? Neithe has an advantage:

Slowly, Luke and Vader circled. Lightsaber high above his head, Luke readied his attack from classic first-position; the Dark Lord held a lateral stance, in classic answer. Without announcement, Luke brought his blade straight down - then, when Vader moved to parry, Luke feinted and cut low. Vader counterparried, let the impact direct his sword toward Luke's throat... but Luke met the riposte and stepped back. The first blows, traded without injury. Again, they circled.

How about Vader being pleased with Luke's increase in speed?

Vader was impressed with Luke's speed. Pleased, even. It was a pity, almost, he couldn't let the boy kill the Emperor yet.

In the movie, Luke kicks Vader down the stairs with a kick. In the novel, Vader was taken by surprise:

So Vader had to shepherd the boy through periods like this, stop him from doing damage in the wrong places - or in the right places prematurely.

Before Vader could gather his thoughts much further, though, Luke attacked again - much more aggressively. He advanced in a flurry of lunges, each met with a loud crack of Vader's phosphorescent saber. The Dark Lord retreated a step at every slash, swiveling once to bring his cutting beam up viciously - but Luke batted it away, pushing Vader back yet again. The Lord of the Sith momentarily lost his footing on the stairs and tumbled to his knees.

In the novel, Vader feels humiliation when he's on the ground after being kicked down the stairs:

For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City - not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.

He feels such humiliation because he was forced back and then fell down the stairs. In the movie, Luke got a good kick in, but there was no disparirity, and Vader could not possibly have thought of humiliation in the movie.

You're also aware that, when he forced Vader down the stairs, that he used the dark side, yes?

Luke faltered a moment - then realized what was happening. He was suddenly confused again. What did he want? What should he do? His brief exultation, his microsecond of dark clarity - gone, now, in a wash of indecision, veiled enigma. Cold awakening from a passionate flirtation.

He took a step back, lowered his sword, relaxed, and tried to drive the hatred from his being.

You're also aware that, after being kicked down, he wants Luke to know it's not a game any longer, but darkness, right?

'You are unwise to lower your defenses,' Vader warned. His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness.

You're aware that Luke thinks Vader won't kill him in the should he have the chance, yes?

Twice before, in fact - to Luke's recollection - Vader could have killed him, but didn't. In the dogfight over the first Death Star, and later in the lightsaber duel on Bespin. He thought of Leia, briefly now, too - of how Vader had had her in his clutches once, had even tortured her ... but didn't kill her. He winced to think of her agony, but quickly pushed that from his mind. The point was clear to him, now, though so often so murky: there was still good in his father

You're aware that, after Vader used saber-throw, that Luke is sure he would die in the same room?
Luke knew full well this might be his end, but so be it. He would not use Darkness to fight Darkness. Perhaps it would be left to Leia, after all, to carry on the struggle, without him. Perhaps she would know a way he didn't know; perhaps she could find a path. For now, though, he could see only two paths, and one was into Darkness; and one was not.

The comic adaption of the fight also confirms they were equals:

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/LukevsVaderwasafightofequals_zps0c9d0151.png

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Darth Sidious would likely take Starkiller with an 8:10 ratio.
Starkiller would get smashed 10/10 against Sidious.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No incarnation of Vader would be able to defeat Starkiller with an 8/10.
This despite Starkiller having trouble in every duel? Gaining no sort of advantage against Paratus until he was crying? Being on the losing side to Shaak Ti? Fighting even with Kota until Kota had a vision? Fighting even with Maris Brood until he switched styles? Winning the first fight against Vader by throwing a generator on him? Winning the second fight against Vader because Vader was completely disinterested in fighting? Ignoring that ANH Vader was but a shadow of his former self?

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/BenKenobiwasashadowofhisformerself_zps58cee100.png

Despite Vader collapsing cathedrals and throwing ships around, growing by a big amount between ANH and ESB and then growing again between ESB and RotJ?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Exempts contradicted by the movie and taken out of context?

How 'bout reading the text? Neithe has an advantage:

Slowly, Luke and Vader circled. Lightsaber high above his head, Luke readied his attack from classic first-position; the Dark Lord held a lateral stance, in classic answer. Without announcement, Luke brought his blade straight down - then, when Vader moved to parry, Luke feinted and cut low. Vader counterparried, let the impact direct his sword toward Luke's throat... but Luke met the riposte and stepped back. The first blows, traded without injury. Again, they circled.

How about Vader being pleased with Luke's increase in speed?

Vader was impressed with Luke's speed. Pleased, even. It was a pity, almost, he couldn't let the boy kill the Emperor yet.

In the movie, Luke kicks Vader down the stairs with a kick. In the novel, Vader was taken by surprise:

So Vader had to shepherd the boy through periods like this, stop him from doing damage in the wrong places - or in the right places prematurely.

Before Vader could gather his thoughts much further, though, Luke attacked again - much more aggressively. He advanced in a flurry of lunges, each met with a loud crack of Vader's phosphorescent saber. The Dark Lord retreated a step at every slash, swiveling once to bring his cutting beam up viciously - but Luke batted it away, pushing Vader back yet again. The Lord of the Sith momentarily lost his footing on the stairs and tumbled to his knees.

In the novel, Vader feels humiliation when he's on the ground after being kicked down the stairs:

For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City - not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.

He feels such humiliation because he was forced back and then fell down the stairs. In the movie, Luke got a good kick in, but there was no disparirity, and Vader could not possibly have thought of humiliation in the movie.

You're also aware that, when he forced Vader down the stairs, that he used the dark side, yes?

Luke faltered a moment - then realized what was happening. He was suddenly confused again. What did he want? What should he do? His brief exultation, his microsecond of dark clarity - gone, now, in a wash of indecision, veiled enigma. Cold awakening from a passionate flirtation.

He took a step back, lowered his sword, relaxed, and tried to drive the hatred from his being.

You're also aware that, after being kicked down, he wants Luke to know it's not a game any longer, but darkness, right?

'You are unwise to lower your defenses,' Vader warned. His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness.

You're aware that Luke thinks Vader won't kill him in the should he have the chance, yes?

Twice before, in fact - to Luke's recollection - Vader could have killed him, but didn't. In the dogfight over the first Death Star, and later in the lightsaber duel on Bespin. He thought of Leia, briefly now, too - of how Vader had had her in his clutches once, had even tortured her ... but didn't kill her. He winced to think of her agony, but quickly pushed that from his mind. The point was clear to him, now, though so often so murky: there was still good in his father

You're aware that, after Vader used saber-throw, that Luke is sure he would die in the same room?
Luke knew full well this might be his end, but so be it. He would not use Darkness to fight Darkness. Perhaps it would be left to Leia, after all, to carry on the struggle, without him. Perhaps she would know a way he didn't know; perhaps she could find a path. For now, though, he could see only two paths, and one was into Darkness; and one was not.

The comic adaption of the fight also confirms they were equals:

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/LukevsVaderwasafightofequals_zps0c9d0151.png


Some of this helps our argument. Our point is that the two of them were equals until Luke cuts off Vader's hand. So your theory that


Lol no.



Lol the video game shows Vader getting owned in a completely different way. And I think that takes precedence.



Skywalker has been able to collapse things like that as well, if I recall in LOE. Vader never got up to the level of his ROTS self again.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Our point is that the two of them were equals until Luke cuts off Vader's hand.
I have only argued as much..?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So your theory that
huh

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Lol no.
lol yes


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Lol the video game shows Vader getting owned in a completely different way. And I think that takes precedence.
They are of equal canon importance, but in the game, only the story and cutscenes are canon. Gameplay and game-mechanics are non-canon.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Skywalker has been able to collapse things like that as well, if I recall in LOE. Vader never got up to the level of his ROTS self again.
With a force scream, yes, but such power can't be compared to telekinesis.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I have only argued as much..?
You argued Vader could have destroyed him with his powers.


Sorry I meant to say your argument that Vader could have destroyed him ala powers is flawed.


I think Sidious is powerful, but to say he'd defeat Starkiller everytime is a stretch. I'd even go up to 8.5, but no farther. He's not THAT much above Starkiller.



The quicktime events are also canon.



Dude, how is a scream less impressive than TK?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You argued Vader could have destroyed him with his powers.
I never did, I pointed out Luke musing that he could.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I think Sidious is powerful, but to say he'd defeat Starkiller everytime is a stretch. I'd even go up to 8.5, but no farther. He's not THAT much above Starkiller.
He is. Skill? Starkiller struggles with featless Jedi. Sidious is in Yoda's tier. Speed? Starkiller fought at speed-pararity with Shaak Ti. Sidious is far faster than Maul whose speed feats are more impressive than Ti's. Powers? Starkiller was ultimately no match for Sidious (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia).

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The quicktime events are also canon.
Does it have anything to do with the fights?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Dude, how is a scream less impressive than TK?
Scream is another power, one I've yet to see used in combat against force-wielders.

If it was as impressive as telekinesis, there's no way Kenobi could've matched Anakin's in their force-push-contest.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I never did, I pointed out Luke musing that he could.

Luke was wrong.



Featless?
Kazdan Paratus could control a droid army with his TK, Shaak Ti on Felucia with the Saarlac could trounce any Jedi from the PT who's name isn't Yoda or Mace Windu. Rahm Kota isn't exactly anything to sneeze at either in his own class.

Maul is not faster than Shaak Ti, who was noted in the old databank for her speed.



Yes Starkiller molests Vader with his saber and force powers. Hence the image I posted.



If it can be used to rip down a cathedral, I don't see why it couldn't be used in combat.



Obviously a low end showing considering a few hours before that he was ripping down enormous building sized statues. And if anything that counts as a feat for Kenobi, not against Skywalker.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Luke was wrong.
Prove it.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Kazdan Paratus could control a droid army with his TK,
They were simple mannequins, moving one at a time, occasionally two at a time.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Shaak Ti on Felucia with the Saarlac could trounce any Jedi from the PT who's name isn't Yoda or Mace Windu.
lol

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Rahm Kota isn't exactly anything to sneeze at either in his own class.
He has done absolutely nothing that indicates he's as good as Fisto who, with the help of Mace, was cut down extremely easily.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Maul is not faster than Shaak Ti, who was noted in the old databank for her speed.
Being noted for her speed is all good and well, but she has done absolutely nothing that overcomes Maul's showings in his journal.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes Starkiller molests Vader with his saber and force powers. Hence the image I posted.
Could you link me to a video in which action of said picture happens?


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
If it can be used to rip down a cathedral, I don't see why it couldn't be used in combat.
Simple: it never has.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Obviously a low end showing considering a few hours before that he was ripping down enormous building sized statues. And if anything that counts as a feat for Kenobi, not against Skywalker.
Not really. Dooku (and Maul) have ragdolled Kenobi who, in turn, matched Skywalker's telekinesis: if a Force scream is as impressive as telekinesis , Dooku and Maul would both be able to ragdoll Vader, which is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He has done absolutely nothing that indicates he's as good as Fisto who, with the help of Mace, was cut down extremely easily.

-FuLUwPkyQs

1.25?

That has nothing to do with lightsaber skill, a contest in which Starkiller struggled.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove it.

You already did with your statements that they were equal. From the excerpts my fellow posters have listed from the novel, it seems to be of the notion that Vader was actually getting bested.



I'm not quite sure about that one.



Shaak Ti as of ROTS is considered one of the greatest swordmasters in the order, mentioned in the same breath as Dooku for her elegance in Makashi.

In TFU, with her Saarlac pet, I have no doubt she could trounce Kenobi, who is really the only person I could see besting her sans Anakin, who'd actually likely pull a victory against her.



Shaak Ti is stated to be a swordsmaster. I'd gamble she's above Fisto.


Maul would lose to Shaak Ti on Felucia.



Look it up yourself. It's the final scene of TFU.



Fair, but that still doesn't take away from Anakin's feat in the Jedi temple.





Except for the fact that Dooku was terrified by Skywalker's display of power with the scream.
1. Since when is TK offense~TK defense.
2. Anakin still has TK feats which trump Obi-Wans and even dare I say Maul.
3. It was a low end showing. Get over it.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That has nothing to do with lightsaber skill, a contest in which Starkiller struggled.

Well he wasn't at his peak at that point, and he never truly struggled against him. The fact is though that he has beaten Vader in lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
They were simple mannequins, moving one at a time, occasionally two at a time.

If by 'one' you actually mean 'one thousand' then yes. Seriously, he fights thousands of them at once in the novels.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You already did with your statements that they were equal. From the excerpts my fellow posters have listed from the novel, it seems to be of the notion that Vader was actually getting bested.
Not really. It was a battle of equals in a competition in which neither used their force powers offensively. For that matter, I'm not sure why we're arguing this considering we both agree that they were equals.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I'm not quite sure about that one.
This time the apprentice was ready for the attacks from behind. One at a time, or occasionally in pairs, the mannequins moved in to distract him.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Shaak Ti as of ROTS is considered one of the greatest swordmasters in the order, mentioned in the same breath as Dooku for her elegance in Makashi.
If you're referring to the quote in Revenge of the Sith, it just mentions that Kenobi lacks that ''stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku''. It's not really a comparison between Ti and Dooku, moreso a comparison between Kenobi's lack of style in comparison to Ti and Dooku.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
In TFU, with her Saarlac pet, I have no doubt she could trounce Kenobi, who is really the only person I could see besting her sans Anakin, who'd actually likely pull a victory against her.
The Saarlac didn't really help her against Starkiller at all, it moreso helped Starkiller.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Shaak Ti is stated to be a swordsmaster. I'd gamble she's above Fisto.
As has Fisto. Ti was forced back by Grievous when she had back-up, Fisto put Grievous on his ass.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Maul would lose to Shaak Ti on Felucia.
Nope.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Fair, but that still doesn't take away from Anakin's feat in the Jedi temple.
What has Anakin's feat in the temple to do with anything?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Except for the fact that Dooku was terrified by Skywalker's display of power with the scream.
Quote?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
1. Since when is TK offense~TK defense.
Since when was it not?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
2. Anakin still has TK feats which trump Obi-Wans and even dare I say Maul.
Kenobi, yes, Maul? No.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
3. It was a low end showing. Get over it.
It really wasn't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well he wasn't at his peak at that point, and he never truly struggled against him. The fact is though that he has beaten Vader in lightsaber combat.
Vader wasn't at his peak either. In fact, he handily lost to Maul.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If by 'one' you actually mean 'one thousand' then yes. Seriously, he fights thousands of them at once in the novels.
Are we talking about the same thing here? I'm talking about the mannequins Paratus manipulated and used against Starkiller.

Alright.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not really. It was a battle of equals in a competition in which neither used their force powers offensively. For that matter, I'm not sure why we're arguing this considering we both agree that they were equals.

Neither do I.




"I should have been here," he said through his teeth. "I told you. I should have been here."
"Anakin, he was defended by Stass Allie and Shaak Ti. If two Masters could not prevent this, do you think you could? Stass Allie is clever and valiant, and Shaak Ti is the most cunning Jedi I've ever met. She's even taught me a few tricks."

That's not the full quote.
"There is an understated elegance in Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber technique, one that is quite unlike the feel one might get from the other great swordsbeings of the Jedi Order. He lacks entirely the flash, the pure bold elan of an Anakin Skywalker; there is no- where in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku, and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda can become."

All of these swordsmen have top tier swordsmanship, sans perhaps Depa.

Also
"Must I demonstrate what would happen should you fight Obi-Wan Kenobi or Shaak Ti, Mace Windu, or stars help you, Yoda?"

That's twice in the mythos she's mentioned in the same breath as Mace Windu and Yoda

They even updated LOE to hype her further in the most recent release.

It most certainly did in the game cutscenes.



That was twenty years before Shaak Ti faced Starkiller.


Yup


His TK.


I don't have LOE handy.



Since Dooku was able to KO Kenobi, but not Skywalker.




It really was, Skywalker holds back the explosion of a cruiser in one TCWs episode as well.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
"I should have been here," he said through his teeth. "I told you. I should have been here."
"Anakin, he was defended by Stass Allie and Shaak Ti. If two Masters could not prevent this, do you think you could? Stass Allie is clever and valiant, and Shaak Ti is the most cunning Jedi I've ever met. She's even taught me a few tricks."
Her cunning has never helped her much in any fights.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
"There is an understated elegance in Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber technique, one that is quite unlike the feel one might get from the other great swordsbeings of the Jedi Order. He lacks entirely the flash, the pure bold elan of an Anakin Skywalker; there is no- where in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku, and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda can become."
Fisto and Tiin has the same hype. Kolar's hype is even better, being ''among the greatest bladesbeings ever produced by the Order'' (Revenge of the Sith). Bulq's hype is also better, being ''one of the most legendary lightsaber instructors the Order had ever produced'' (Galaxy Guide 15: Attack of the Clones).

For the matter of comparing Dooku and her, one only need to look at their respective fights against OCW Grievous: Ti, with backup, was quite clearly inferior, while Dooku without backup stomped Grievous.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
"Must I demonstrate what would happen should you fight Obi-Wan Kenobi or Shaak Ti, Mace Windu, or stars help you, Yoda?"
And how would Dooku know of Ti..?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That was twenty years before Shaak Ti faced Starkiller.
Prove she improved.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yup
You created a thread for this.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
His TK.
Not sure what his telekinesis has to do with anything regarding this discussion.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Since Dooku was able to KO Kenobi, but not Skywalker.
That's the little difference between Pre-Suit Vader and Anakin.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Her cunning has never helped her much in any fights.


Fisto and Tiin has the same hype. Kolar's hype is even better, being ''among the greatest bladesbeings ever produced by the Order'' (Revenge of the Sith). Bulq's hype is also better, being ''one of the most legendary lightsaber instructors the Order had ever produced'' (Galaxy Guide 15: Attack of the Clones).
And yet Shaak Ti's prodigious force powers add to her hype. Considering she, you know tamed a Dark Side force nexus.



You ignore that Ti was exhausted.


Uhh because he was a Jedi...



20 years in wildlife taming a Dark Side force nexus tends to do that to Jedi Masters.




Yup.
Point being Galen Marek has superior TK to Vaders and will trounce him everytime ROTJ or not.

Trounce is a bit of an exaggeration, don't you think?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Trounce is a bit of an exaggeration, don't you think?

Yeah it is. I've said 6.5/10 in his favor. Giving Vader a moderate win ratio. of 3.5

Going to commend Intrepid again for his skillful use of sources. I think it's going to be pretty close either way.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And yet Shaak Ti's prodigious force powers add to her hype. Considering she, you know tamed a Dark Side force nexus.
While impressive, such demonstration of power isn't applicable in combat, is it?



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You ignore that Ti was exhausted.
You're ignoring that she had two Jedi by her side.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Uhh because he was a Jedi...
And Dooku, busy with training Grievous and Ventress, responding to his master, acquiring multiple dark jed, setting up a rendezvous with Yoda and fighting numerous times throughout the Clone Wars would remember a random Jedi's skill?


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
20 years in wildlife taming a Dark Side force nexus tends to do that to Jedi Masters.
20 years of not using your blade tends to decrease ones skill.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yup.
Point being Galen Marek has superior TK to Vaders and will trounce him everytime ROTJ or not.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
While impressive, such demonstration of power isn't applicable in combat, is it?
No but it's a feat none the less.




No I am not.



Dude it's in the novel. It's canon, deal with it.




Twenty years of sparring and training the natives and Mariss Brood, tends to speak otherwise.



Vader has no feats that match up to Starkillers, I'm sorry. He just doesn't show anything that tells me otherwise.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No but it's a feat none the less.
If not applicable, I fail to see why mentioning it is important.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Dude it's in the novel. It's canon, deal with it.
Let's use common sense here. Unless Dooku magically knows such things ala Sidious' I don't see how it's an important quote.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Twenty years of sparring and training the natives and Mariss Brood, tends to speak otherwise.
Brood didn't even know what Starkiller switching styles meant.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
If not applicable, I fail to see why mentioning it is important.

It demonstrates her power in the force.



Or he knows who the greatest swordsmen of the Order he belonged to. Why is this so hard to believe?



She was a padawan. What do you expect? She's no Starkiller.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It demonstrates her power in the force.
Power not useable, thus irrelevant.



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Or he knows who the greatest swordsmen of the Order he belonged to. Why is this so hard to believe?
Not everything everyone says in a book is true, and even if it is, being above Grievous is an accolade nearly all Jedi have (wasn't it Drallig in the quote?)

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
She was a padawan. What do you expect? She's no Starkiller.
That's the point.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Power not useable, thus irrelevant.





Yes they changed the quote just to give Shaak Ti another accolade.



And Yoda and Mace did nothing but sparr for centuries and decades and yet they are the most celebrated swordsman in the Order's history. Yoda being greater than any of the wartime masters of the Old Republic.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes they changed the quote just to give Shaak Ti another accolade.
That's... not sure what to say about that.





Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And Yoda and Mace did nothing but sparr for centuries and decades and yet they are the most celebrated swordsman in the Order's history. Yoda being greater than any of the wartime masters of the Old Republic.
You're just furthering my point. If you use your blade a lot, logically you'd become better at using it. If you don't use it a lot, guess what, you become but a shadow of your former self (Ben Kenobi?)

Yeah, not sure how I felt about taking it away from Cin.






Ben Kenobi is a red herring. Completely unrelated. Shaak Ti spent her 20 years taming Rancor, training the Felucians in war, and sparring with Marris Brood. Her blade work is clearly not rusty giving that she whooped Starkiller.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Ben Kenobi is a red herring. Completely unrelated. Shaak Ti spent her 20 years taming Rancor, training the Felucians in war, and sparring with Marris Brood. Her blade work is clearly not rusty giving that she whooped Starkiller.
It's not a red herring and certainly not unrelated. Ben fought A'Sharad Hett and studied the force under Qui-Gon Jinn while watching over Luke. That's essentially the same thing Shaak Ti did.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's not a red herring and certainly not unrelated. Ben fought A'Sharad Hett and studied the force under Qui-Gon Jinn while watching over Luke. That's essentially the same thing Shaak Ti did.
I wouldn't agree with this. Those had completely different situations. Shaak Ti didn't try hiding from the Empire as much and Vader/Starkiller managed to track her down.

Not sure what hiding has to do with anything. Ti's bladework might not have gotten worse, but there's no proof it got better.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not sure what hiding has to do with anything. Ti's bladework might not have gotten worse, but there's no proof it got better.
Fair enough. Though the fact that Ti trained Maris and probably some other force sensitives meant or at least strongly implied that she probably was more active and trained more often.

That's what I pointed out before: Brood's training doesn't seem so complex.

Maris noticed the shift in his fighting style but, having only been trained in Jedi methods, failed to understand what it meant.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That's what I pointed out before: Brood's training doesn't seem so complex.

Maris noticed the shift in his fighting style but, having only been trained in Jedi methods, failed to understand what it meant.
I didn't notice that. Good point.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That's what I pointed out before: Brood's training doesn't seem so complex.

Maris noticed the shift in his fighting style but, having only been trained in Jedi methods, failed to understand what it meant.

Maris noticed the shift in his fighting style but, having only been trained in Jedi methods, failed to understand what it meant.

She was not used to fighting a Sith. That's all that quote proves.

Bump

Galen.

Mismatch. RotJ Vader > TFU II Vader > Galen.

Nah.

Yes, unless you arbitrary pick which source is valid, and which isn't, and you ignore context.

And when you take every single cutscene from every version of the game even when it contradicts itself just to support your point that's just fine. Lmao.

They are all canon. You can't ignore them based on your ragining boner for Galen.

You can ignore them if they are outright depicting different events.

Let me know when you are a canon authority. Until then kys you phag.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
And when you take every single cutscene from every version of the game even when it contradicts itself just to support your point that's just fine. Lmao.

Lmao! You aren't above using feats from all TFU sources when it suits you, ya filthy double standarder. Gideon would be ashamed. ASHAMED!

Vader, lol.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lmao! You aren't above using feats from all TFU sources when it suits you, ya filthy double standarder. Gideon would be ashamed. ASHAMED!

I use feats where they don't contradict each other. I hold the novel as the primary source.

Vader takes the majority with moderate to severe difficulty.

Originally posted by Azronger
Vader, lol. "lol"

Syndi's attempts to elevate Galen just make me chuckle.

Originally posted by Azronger
Vader, lol.

Originally posted by Azronger
Syndi's attempts to elevate Galen just make me chuckle. Because they're legit?

In what scenario can you see Palpatine struggling against Tutaminis from Vader?

Oh no, not about to start to this cycle of bullshit again.

Originally posted by Azronger
Oh no, not about to start to this cycle of bullshit again. Its still on the front page, so the cycle never ended.

It'll never end as long as Syndi is here.