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River Tam from Firefly & Serenity

vs the new incarnation of Khan from into Darkness

River has the sword & Axe which she had in Serenity and Khan has just a sword to use

Go!

Bye Bye Khan.

River would beat his ass so bad bystanders would be yelling KHAAAAAN ARE YOU OK.

Yep and "Ohhhhhh the humanityyyyyyyyyyyyy!"
It'd be real shiny.

While River certainly showed tremendous martial skill in the movie(she is by far the best fighter in the Firefly series shown so far), I doubt that they're going to be of any use against someone strong enough to go toe-to-toe with(and eventually overwhelm) a Vulcan half-breed in h2h combat and resist the nerve pinch technique.

Khan wins 10/10.

He showed zero feats of being able to resist axes/swords.

And River only ever faced a bunch of raging madmen in the form of the Reavers. She never showed any indication of being able to take on a quasi-superhuman trained soldier in h2h combat either. Which maybe attributable to the fact that the Fireflyverse never had any such beings on Khan's level, while the Nu-Trekverse does so in spades.

I think you must have forgotten the bar fight.
You keep mentioning H2H also, which doesn't apply here necessarily.

She only fought human punks in that bar, and certainly no one who seemed to be even remotely well-trained, let alone as skilled as Khan, so no, that fight doesn't really count as much of a feat in comparison to her butchering an entire room full of Reavers. Which in itself is hardly anything to speak of when comparing her to a guy like Khan.

She has always utilized her wushu-lite fighting style in armed combat though, which is why I keep mentioning h2h. A highly trained semi-superhuman like Khan is simply out of her league.

Armed human punks and did them all, H2H demonstrating quasi superhuman abilities in defense, offense and manoeuvring.

I think Khan is screwed against her when shes armed.
Or at the very least he leaves the arena screaming like a BeeGee with his fingers caught in a car door.

She might also be able to kill him with her mind.

Khan wasn't really all that skilled, most of it was his superior stats...which aren't going to mean much when the other person is using bladed weapons.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Armed human punks and did them all, H2H demonstrating quasi superhuman abilities in defense, offense and manoeuvring.

I think Khan is screwed against her when shes armed.
Or at the very least he leaves the arena screaming like a BeeGee with his fingers caught in a car door.

She might also be able to kill him with her mind.
I don't believe that she showed quasi-super or even peak level stats in the movie. Jane was able to physically restrain her before she KO'd him with that steel plate, so her strength is in all likelihood at a normal human level, albeit one that is certainly strong for her small build.

I disagree. Khan is certainly strong enough to KO her with one punch, and while he certainly lacks the feats with bladed weapons that she has in abundance, he is imo resourceful enough to figure out how to do so while in combat. I mean Captain Reynolds was able to hold his own in a sword-fight against an elite fencer in an ep of the series, so Khan too should be capable of doing so in a fight where his life depends upon it.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Khan wasn't really all that skilled, most of it was his superior stats...which aren't going to mean much when the other person is using bladed weapons.
In terms of raw skill, River might probably hold the edge, but Khan's superior stats more than compensate for it and his training on top of that makes him her clear superior in any type of melee(armed or unarmed).

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I don't believe that she showed quasi-super or even peak level stats in the movie. Jane was able to physically restrain her before she KO'd him with that steel plate, so her strength is in all likelihood at a normal human level, albeit one that is certainly strong for her small build.

I disagree. Khan is certainly strong enough to KO her with one punch, and while he certainly lacks the feats with bladed weapons that she has in abundance, he is imo resourceful enough to figure out how to do so while in combat. I mean Captain Reynolds was able to hold his own in a sword-fight against an elite fencer in an ep of the series, so Khan too should be capable of doing so in a fight where his life depends upon it.

She did in that fight that flip that took her like 15-20ft landing on her hands was one. Khan will be delimbed if he tries to restrain her.

Im afraid Im still not convinced.
Mal was getting pwned and got lucky because the duel was drawn out. What Khan would be facing against River armed with Sword and axe would be brutally fast and efficient and without a stop until he is shish khanbab. I think we may just have to agree to disagree on that one.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
She did in that fight that flip that took her like 15-20ft landing on her hands was one. Khan will be delimbed if he tries to restrain her.

Im afraid Im still not convinced.
Mal was getting pwned and got lucky because the duel was drawn out. What Khan would be facing against River armed with Sword and axe would be brutally fast and efficient and without a stop until he is shish khanbab. I think we may just have to agree to disagree on that one.
Jane wasn't delimbed. I don't recall her backflipping from a 15-20 ft drop, and even if she did, it's nothing remotely impressive compared to Khan's strength or agility feats.

Except Mal has practically no experience whatsoever with swords, or any major bladed weapons whatsoever. Khan on the other hand head-stabbed 2 klingons with their own bladed weapons in an instant.

Ok, let's agree to disagree then.

Anyways, I suspect that people are going to argue against Khan in this thread simply because of quan's fanboyish wankery in previous threads. However realistically speaking she doesn't stand a chance against Khan, and I am as much of a River-fan as one gets without bordering on the fanboy line. On that note, Quan's ability to make a certain character so hateable with his trolling is indeed uncanny in that respect.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
In terms of raw skill, River might probably hold the edge, but Khan's superior stats more than compensate for it and his training on top of that makes him her clear superior in any type of melee(armed or unarmed).

In terms of raw skill River is well above Khan and of the two she is the only one to have any skill feats with the weapons is question.

Hell, Khan had some trouble with Spock in pure HTH, even though Khan had the stat advantage. Khan isn't anywhere near as skilled as some people want him to be.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Khan wasn't really all that skilled, most of it was his superior stats...which aren't going to mean much when the other person is using bladed weapons. Yes he was; Spock had top notch MA skill, Khan was giving him the business.

Originally posted by Mindset
Yes he was; Spock had top notch MA skill, Khan was giving him the business.

What are Spock's HTH feats and a good part of why Khan was winning was his superior stats.

Originally posted by Silent Master
In terms of raw skill River is well above Khan and of the two she is the only one to have any skill feats with the weapons is question.

Hell, Khan had some trouble with Spock in pure HTH, even though Khan had the stat advantage. Khan isn't anywhere near as skilled as some people want him to be.
No, the difference is there but it's not as substantial as you're making it out to be. Bar-frequenting civilians and punks along with Reavers are the only people she fought.

Spock is trained in Vulcan ma. In terms of pure skill, I'd put Spock at the same level as that Alliance Operative who beat the sh1t out of Mal. Khan is definitely skilled enough to rival River, your quanhate simply blinds you to it.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Jane wasn't delimbed. I don't recall her backflipping from a 15-20 ft drop, and even if she did, it's nothing remotely impressive compared to Khan's strength or agility feats.

It showed peakhuman-extra abilities as anyone else would have shattered their wrists! It wasn't a drop it was drop and distance forwards, in the bar fight. She never faced Jane with swords.


Except Mal has practically no experience whatsoever with swords, or any major bladed weapons whatsoever. Khan on the other hand head-stabbed 2 klingons with their own bladed weapons in an instant.

And what feats other than being puss-stooges do the Klingons have here, in the Nu-verse, screenfeats wise? Nothing.







I'm not letting Quan's bias affect me: He is just a tourist troll whom doesn't even see or remember things right anyway.
I think Khan is sliced and diced still. Don't get me wrong though: Im not saying 10/10 or anything that strong, but I see her doing it like 6-7 times out of ten. Shes a psychic with top level Kill Bill like performance, and has a sword and axe. And Khan is no bulletime spiderman avoider.

Originally posted by Silent Master
What are Spock's HTH feats and a good part of why Khan was winning was his superior stats. Have you not seen the first movie?

His superior stats give him the win here too.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
No, the difference is there but it's not as substantial as you're making it out to be. Bar-frequenting civilians and punks along with Reavers are the only people she fought.

Spock is trained in Vulcan ma. In terms of pure skill, I'd put Spock at the same level as that Alliance Operative who beat the sh1t out of Mal. Khan is definitely skilled enough to rival River, your quanhate simply blinds you to it.

Sure it is, as you said yourself she had normal human strength which means the people she fought were at least as strong as her and yet she took out groups of people. Khan had trouble going 1-on-1 with someone weaker than him.

Again, what are Spock's hth feats?

Also, Spock is stronger/faster than humans.

Originally posted by Mindset
Have you not seen the first movie?

His superior stats give him the win here too.

I have seen the movie, but I don't recall any top level hth feats, feel free to refresh my memory.

Just watch it again.

I'm at work for the next 9 hours, why don't you just tell me his hth feats...that would save a lot of time.

Does your manager know this is how you spend your time?

As long as we do our work first, he doesn't mind.

That's cool, I hope you have a good day at work, friend.

River can mimic any fighting style or move her opponent can do, there she is as good at h2h as khan, if not better. Khans only advantage is his strength, however, that wont help against an axe or a blad.
KHAN GOES DOWN

Thanks. it's been fairly slow so far, but Fridays usually are.

River is the better fighter, though Khan isn't bad in skill either. Khan does have the physical edge, and in any real fight a skilled dude with higher physical stats than you will almost always win. Can River still win? Sure, but definitely not the majority.

Khan loses

Only this isn't a HTH fight, it's a fight with bladed weapons where strength doesn't matter nearly as much and of the two of them only one can be said to be skilled with the weapons being used, and that person isn't Khan.

Originally posted by Mindset
Also, Spock is stronger/faster than humans.

Stronger, not faster.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Only this isn't a HTH fight, it's a fight with bladed weapons where strength doesn't matter nearly as much and of the two of them only one can be said to be skilled with the weapons being used, and that person isn't Khan.

If I'm not mistaken, Khan is supposed to be enhanced physically such that he's not only stronger but faster and with better reflexes as well. After all, he was in a firefight with Klingons, outnumbered and out in the open and yet didn't get hit once.

Now if I'm mistaken and Khan only has enhanced strength and not speed and reflexes, then the match is more even.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Stronger, not faster. Nope, both.

Originally posted by FrothByte
If I'm not mistaken, Khan is supposed to be enhanced physically such that he's not only stronger but faster and with better reflexes as well. After all, he was in a firefight with Klingons, outnumbered and out in the open and yet didn't get hit once.

Now if I'm mistaken and Khan only has enhanced strength and not speed and reflexes, then the match is more even. Khan has enhanced everything.

Intelligence, strength, reflexes, etc.

Khan really didn't appear to be that much(if at all) faster in speed or reflexes than anyone else, neither did Spock. As for the fire fight, It's not like he was dodging and jumping around to avoid the phaser blasts. they just missed.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Khan really didn't appear to be that much(if at all) faster in speed or reflexes than anyone else, neither did Spock. As for the fire fight, It's not like he was dodging and jumping around to avoid the phaser blasts. they just missed. Spock showed he was way too fast for Kirk when they fought. Khan > Spock

No, he really didn't.

k9vHopyEtzs

And Khan isn't > Spock in regards to speed. I don't see above human speed anywhere in the clip.

How can you look at that fight and not see Spock was too fast for him?

Yes, he is.

Did you miss the fact that 1) Kirk actually blocked a couple of the hits and 2) Spock didn't actually show above human speed?

If not, I can start posting movie clips where normal humans move and strike faster than Spock did in that scene.

Khan crash-dove his ship into San Fransisco and then engaged in a long foot chase and fight (including withstanding a Vulcan Nerve Pinch, which would put down, say, River, instantly) he would have won if not for intervention. What has River done to equate to this durability/stamina?

Originally posted by Lestov16
Khan crash-dove his ship into San Fransisco and then engaged in a long foot chase and fight (including withstanding a Vulcan Nerve Pinch, which would put down, say, River, instantly) he would have won if not for intervention. What has River done to equate to this durability/stamina?

Good for him, which of those makes him immune to getting stabbed?

Originally posted by Silent Master
Did you miss the fact that 1) Kirk actually blocked a couple of the hits and 2) Spock didn't actually show above human speed?

If not, I can start posting movie clips where normal humans move and strike faster than Spock did in that scene. Did you miss the part where Kirk wasn't fast enough to block most of the hits?

How is a different movie showing people moving fast supposed to disprove Spock being faster than humans, that's inane.

The fact that he landed more hits than were blocked doesn't mean Spock has a massive speed advantage, it certainly doesn't mean Spock is faster than human.

Iyrg7sWH2Sc

Look at 4:25, OMG Jeff Speakman has superhuman speed.

It's unfortunate we never get to see the full extent of River's skills & potential.

We only ever see the after-math of River taking on a horde of Reavers armed with bladed weapons....& surviving, unscathed.

We do see Khan take on a squad of Klingons, yet he is properly armed & is also able to use his guns to block, parry & bludgeon...not to mention jump long distance which suggests speed & durability.

However River did take on a horde of Reavers, feared for their brutality & penchant to rape, torture & canabalize all by herself...even when the rest of her crew, armed with guns were ready to give up & die.

Hell, I'd rather face 5 Klingons to 1 Reaver any day.

My vote goes to River. If she wanted Khan dead, nothing would stand in her way.

Originally posted by Mindset
Nope, both.

Link showing vid proof? (Im not talking reflexes, I mean speed, showing something that humans cannot do.)

Originally posted by Esau Cairn
It's unfortunate we never get to see the full extent of River's skills & potential.

We only ever see the after-math of River taking on a horde of Reavers armed with bladed weapons....& surviving, unscathed.

We do see Khan take on a squad of Klingons, yet he is properly armed & is also able to use his guns to block, parry & bludgeon...not to mention jump long distance which suggests speed & durability.

However River did take on a horde of Reavers, feared for their brutality & penchant to rape, torture & canabalize all by herself...even when the rest of her crew, armed with guns were ready to give up & die.

Hell, I'd rather face 5 Klingons to 1 Reaver any day.

My vote goes to River. If she wanted Khan dead, nothing would stand in her way.

A good majority of the Reapers' reputation is just that: fear. It's a psychological thing. They've been driven insane and have an urge to mutilate, but they're otherwise still human, aren't they? It's been a while since I saw Serenity, so I don't recall if they'd been enhanced as well.

River definitely has some impressive showings. I think quite a bit of it is embellished, though. She has impressive strength, but in this scenario she's outreached against an opponent who has comparable, if not equal, skill and enhanced in ways she isn't.

I just don't see River coming out of this without serious injury, if at all.

The Reavers were affected /modified by the Alliance's (falied) experiment to the extent of pure rage mode, with uber visciousness and freak strength that amped base level function would imply. Theres no doubt that they were incredibly dangerous bastards by screenfeats in addition to what was said in-verse about them.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
freak strength that amped base level function would imply.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Link showing vid proof? (showing something that humans cannot do.)

Only advantage that River might have here is speed, and that is questionable because Khan took on tougher opponents.

Speed + Sword and axe = win.

Khan took on unproven stooge goons.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Only advantage that River might have here is speed, and that is questionable because Khan took on tougher opponents.


You mean River being the only one shown to be skilled with the weapons being used in this thread isn't an advantage?

Originally posted by Silent Master
Did you miss the fact that 1) Kirk actually blocked a couple of the hits and 2) Spock didn't actually show above human speed?

If not, I can start posting movie clips where normal humans move and strike faster than Spock did in that scene.

Did you fail to see that Kirk couldn't actually land any clean hits because 1. Spock beat him to the punch most of the time and 2. The times he did throw punches Spock easily blocked him?

You don't need to show flash-like speed feats to be considered superhumanly fast. Even if you just had the speed reflexes of a cat that would make you faster than any human, but it won't look like flash-blurs on screen.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Did you fail to see that Kirk couldn't actually land any clean hits because 1. Spock beat him to the punch most of the time and 2. The times he did throw punches Spock easily blocked him?

You don't need to show flash-like speed feats to be considered superhumanly fast. Even if you just had the speed reflexes of a cat that would make you faster than any human, but it won't look like flash-blurs on screen.

Being slightly faster than Kirk isn't proof of having above human level speed.

Bones demonstrated he was faster than Kirk's reflexes when jabbing him with needles.

Originally posted by Silent Master
You mean River being the only one shown to be skilled with the weapons being used in this thread isn't an advantage?

So if this was River vs Superman in a swordfight, River would win because she's the only one who was shown using a sword?

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Bones demonstrated he was faster than Kirk's reflexes when jabbing him with needles. Bones, Spock, and Khan beat River.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Link showing vid proof? (Im not talking reflexes, I mean speed, showing something that humans cannot do.) Reflexes are the only things that matters, we aren't talking about a race.

Originally posted by Lestov16
So if this was River vs Superman in a swordfight, River would win because she's the only one who was shown using a sword?

I'd like some proof that Khan has Superman level strength/speed and durability.

It was an analogy.

Originally posted by Lestov16
It was an analogy.

A very poor analogy, as Superman's stats are thousands of times higher than Khan's.

Are you intentionally missing the point? In case you are, the point is that prowess with a weapon means jack shit if your opponent outclasses you in every physical stat.

She outclasses Khan in every screenfeat in weapons handling against multiple assailants, without missing them with the regularity that Khan did with his guns.

He also has demonstrated no ability to withstand samurai sword/axe interference.

before khan goes to bed, he checks in his closet for river tam. no contest.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Are you intentionally missing the point? In case you are, the point is that prowess with a weapon means jack shit if your opponent outclasses you in every physical stat.

The point is that you suck at making analogies...that and Khan has no speed feats that place him above River, nor does he have any feats of resisting slashing/stabbing damage.

So please explain how River having a massive skill advantage with the weapons being used in this thread isn't an advantage.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
before khan goes to bed, he checks in his closet for river tam. no contest. Who doesn't?

You like to get raped by a woman?

Originally posted by Mindset
Who doesn't?

Originally posted by XanatosForever

River definitely has some impressive showings. I think quite a bit of it is embellished, though. She has impressive strength, but in this scenario she's outreached against an opponent who has comparable, if not equal, skill and enhanced in ways she isn't.

I just don't see River coming out of this without serious injury, if at all.

Due to its cancellation after the 1st season, a lot of River's potential was only ever hinted.
But 3 instances come to mind to suggest to me that she could beat Khan:

1) Solo fight against the Reavers.

2) Her shooting prowess. She was able to shoot & kill several henchmen without even glancing at them, rescuing Mal in War Stories.

3) She joked to Jayne that she could kill him with her mind. Potentially she could've developed these powers if the series wasn't axed.

Khan doesn't have comparable skill and he certainly doesn't have comparable skill with bladed weapons.

Originally posted by Esau Cairn
Due to its cancellation after the 1st season, a lot of River's potential was only ever hinted.
But 3 instances come to mind to suggest to me that she could beat Khan:

1) Solo fight against the Reavers.

2) Her shooting prowess. She was able to shoot & kill several henchmen without even glancing at them, rescuing Mal in War Stories.

3) She joked to Jayne that she could kill him with her mind. Potentially she could've developed these powers if the series wasn't axed.

Exactamundo.

Originally posted by Kazenji
You like to get raped by a woman?

Depends how hot she is...