Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

A thread for the discussion in the next gen thread.

http://femfreq.tumblr.com/post/52673540142/twitter-vs-female-protagonists-in-video-games

Oh her

i heard about her last Youtube video, How people abused the flag fuction to get it removed.

I think the reaction of many gamers to her is pretty appalling and shows a lack of maturity and immense entitlement.

I personally think she makes mostly good points, too.

And in a similar way to how I was happy that Double Fine overshot its asked goal on kickstarter, I am also happy for her to have gotten this amount of support.

I agree that gaming could use some more strong female roles like Jodie from Beyond: Two Souls and Laura from Tomb Raider. It would be incredibly intersting to see where they go with a different perspective. But this chick comes off like "how dare they not make a game with a woman. Those sexist chauvinist pigs. Grrrrr they should make one because I said so and I'm mad because they didn't do exactly what I want." She's got a good message, she just delivers it wrong and comes off like something of a b1tch.

Her attitude leaves a lot to be desired, imo. Not that it excuses the responses she was getting, though; those were pretty harsh.

I mean, some of the comments she posted as being attacking her, were pretty reasonable statements imo, so it's a case of her doing nothing to help her own cause, and then getting bent out of shape because she brought attacks on herself.

Her mention of male privilege makes me instantly hate her, though. I can't stand that elitist, sexist attitude.

Agreed. A lot of those responses are Internet sh1t talkers who can say anything behind a keyboard and will attack anyone. But she doesn't make me sympathize with her from her own attitude

Originally posted by -Pr-
Her attitude leaves a lot to be desired, imo. Not that it excuses the responses she was getting, though; those were pretty harsh.

I mean, some of the comments she posted as being attacking her, were pretty reasonable statements imo, so it's a case of her doing nothing to help her own cause, and then getting bent out of shape because she brought attacks on herself.

Her mention of male privilege makes me instantly hate her, though. I can't stand that elitist, sexist attitude.

It's hardly sexist. Especially in gaming men are immensely privileged over women, and catered to almost exclusively. Originally posted by KingD19
I agree that gaming could use some more strong female roles like Jodie from Beyond: Two Souls and Laura from Tomb Raider. It would be incredibly intersting to see where they go with a different perspective. But this chick comes off like "how dare they not make a game with a woman. Those sexist chauvinist pigs. Grrrrr they should make one because I said so and I'm mad because they didn't do exactly what I want." She's got a good message, she just delivers it wrong and comes off like something of a b1tch.

I don't think that is due to what she says though, rather it's you ascribing these stereotypes to her. Tbh she seems nothing but reasonable to me in her videos.

I think it is rather a case of feminism and the language of feminism having been thoroughly demonized and there being knee jerk reactions opposed to it almost immediately. For example the privilege thing, that's hardly a sexist point, it just point out where one group has advantages due to their status as a group. Same with patriarchy, we live in a patriarchal society, almost all our leaders are men, that's just a fact. I have seen this argument that she says things like "how dare they not make a game with a woman. Those sexist chauvinist pigs", but as far as I can tell that's never actually the case. She seems to be very aware that it is not outright conscious sexism, but rather game makers lazily relying on the standard tropes and upholding the status quo, mostly not even consciously.

For example, the problem of the damsel in distress trope is not that it happens once or twice, but that it is basically one of the very few archetypes of women in games, completely devoid of any agency (and no, after being rescued getting to punch your kidnapper does not make it fine).

The problem aren't single instances, it's a prevalence in the industry. It's not that one executive says "Hey, how about we make the female character nothing but a 2 dimensional love interest that gets stolen from our main protagonist and will serve as the macguffin for our game, that way we don't have to think about a personality for her either, win-win" (obviously that's not actually how it happens, it's just the result, no one actively says that, but it's still what we get). The problem is that every second game with a woman decides to go that way.

Sexist attitudes almost ensure that any woman speaking out about this will be viewed as a man hating, biased and obnoxious, while a man saying the same thing would be taken seriously and perhaps even lauded.

Originally posted by KingD19
and Laura from Tomb Raider.

Its Lara by the way


I agree with -Pr-

she even has this view only males that do the violence.....stop living in a fantasy land females are also capable of it too.

Thankfully Jim Sterling already summarized the issue. Thank God for him.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I mean, some of the comments she posted as being attacking her, were pretty reasonable statements imo, so it's a case of her doing nothing to help her own cause, and then getting bent out of shape because she brought attacks on herself.

She 'brought attacks on herself'? What, because she had an opinion? She didn't bring shit on herself. Nothing justifies the response she got.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Her mention of male privilege makes me instantly hate her, though. I can't stand that elitist, sexist attitude.

Do you deny though that males are heavily favored in gaming? Most of the comments she posted really do reek of male entitlement. How is it sexist to point out a discrepancy in the market? It isn't.

Kindly check your privilege in the future.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Sexist attitudes almost ensure that any woman speaking out about this will be viewed as a man hating, biased and obnoxious, while a man saying the same thing would be taken seriously and perhaps even lauded.

Jim doesn't get nearly the same amount of hate when he discusses similar topics to do with women in games.

(p.s. Bardocks post rocks)

Whilst obviously there is little chance that a person will agree with every point she makes (as is the case with just about every commentator and critic), there is a great importance, I feel, that a voice like this is loudly heard in the gaming community, as I do feel that community needs to change. Indeed, much of the criticism against her is mindless. Even just by exposing the kind of comments she gets, she is revealing something very significant.

Male privilege and male entitlement.

lol.

thanks a bunch from me serious.http://hornt.computerxray.com/8.jpghttp://hornt.computerxray.com/06.jpghttp://hornt.computerxray.com/01.jpg
http://hornt.computerxray.com/02.jpg
http://hornt.computerxray.com/03.jpg
http://hornt.computerxray.com/04.jpg
http://hornt.computerxray.com/05.jpg
http://hornt.computerxray.com/07.jpg

...not a single comment she posted in the responses she got were reasonable. And no, she and others who call out the blatant and ingrained sexism in society are not bringing it on themselves. Holy crap.

There are deeply problematic issues present in the gaming industry, and the only way it will change is if it gets called out and questioned and clearly presented just how bad it is. Like how the assumption is that games with a female lead won't sell - yet those games are given 40% of the marketing budget games with male leads get. Gee, that could have nothing to do with it.

Also, not sugar-coating the truth is not having a bad attitude. Her attitude is perfectly fine. I doubt anyone would accuse Jim Sterling of having a poor attitude and he is far more coarse about, well, everything. But if you say Anita has an attitude problem, that says far more about yourself than anything else.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Male privilege and male entitlement.

lol.

The truth sure is funny.


Or.... no, whats the opposite of funny again? Blaxy? That sounds right.

Cry harder, Neph.

I wonder why these sorts of events only become issues when a woman is the victim.

Probably because men aren't really underrepresented in games.

You joke!

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
I wonder why these sorts of events only become issues when a woman is the victim.

There's also a lot of outrage about representation of other ethnicities or races (than white, european, western...(though I didn't have to mention that cause white european western is the default (cause racism and colonialism))). As well as sexual orientation and gender identity. Really all minorities (even if not minorities on a global level) are underrepresented or represented in terrible ways in gaming.

Obviously Anita's focus is female representation. Which I guess is fair, since she's female. Additionally women are a very, very large part of gamers, so it makes sense there's a lot of them speaking out.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Probably because men aren't really underrepresented in games.

You joke! Black people are significantly less represented in gaming than chicks are.

If I made a thread complaining about people in the gaming community calling me a **** or a ***, do you think it would get much attention?

Absolutely no reason why it shouldn't on a broad basis.

But on a specific basis, it's less of a social problem simply because gamers tend to have no idea of the race of people they are playing with.

It's not very relevant though- the fact other problems may exist does not detract from the legitimacy of this problem. It should be judged on its own merits, and it is big enough to warrant attention.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Black people are significantly less represented in gaming than chicks are.

If I made a thread complaining about people in the gaming community calling me a **** or a ***, do you think it would get much attention?

I'll give it attention, you should try.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Black people are significantly less represented in gaming than chicks are.

If I made a thread complaining about people in the gaming community calling me a **** or a ***, do you think it would get much attention?

I think it should.

Would it, though?

You guys didn't really answer my question.

Well, there are problems with a straight answer. The first is that whilst females may be more represented, a lot of their representation is actually part of the problem, so the direct comparison is tricky.

But to try and answer it as best I can- if someone made a series about poor representation of blacks in video games, and the response was as overwhelmingly racist as the response in this case was misogynist, then yes, I think it would get as much attention. My guess, though, would be that such a racist response wouldn't happen. I think part of the whole point here is that women have been revealed as an 'acceptable' target.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Would it, though?

You guys didn't really answer my question.

It wouldn't, most likely. But you don't already have the following of Anita. You'll probably get a fair amount of hatred though, like she does. Mainly by white people who don't see the big deal, it's just gaming, get over it, and noooo Heimdall is white he can't be black... that's racist.

You know.

Also, lets go for the double whammy of representation of black women.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Would it, though?

You guys didn't really answer my question.

I don't know. Remember how pissed off at Resident Evil 4 everyone got? If a bunch of racists started circle-jerking over something like that, it could happen.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Would it, though?

You guys didn't really answer my question.
If you made a thread on here? I'd reckon it'd get the same amount as this thread.

Or it'd be everyone agreeing with you until it fizzled out early.

Co-signing Bardock's comments in this thread.

Also, for anyone decrying her tone, just read through every one of those tweets - and the implied dozens (hundreds? thousands?) of others not shown - and ask yourself if her approach is entirely without cause?

Anita is a posturing mediocrity who thinks she's something more than that. Some of the responses she gets, though, are odious and untenable. Unfortunately, she sometimes uses those responses to censor/ignore valid criticisms.

Either way, I can certainly appreciate just about anyone who's not afraid to stir a beehive.

Video gaming is probably one of the last major refuges of misogyny in the Western world.

I don't think her "tone" is reason to excuse or even understand the kind of vitriolic responses she got. Even if I don't like a woman or think she's an idiot I don't proceed to insult her for being a woman, which is what many of the responders did.

I think she's got more worth based upon to reactions shes caused than her actual work. Its certainly more effectively demonstrated that theres something wrong with the gaming community than anything she's actually said.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Video gaming is probably one of the last major refuges of misogyny in the Western world.

Eh, it's more outright perhaps, because the whole culture is somewhat infantile. But There's large amounts of misogyny in movies, tv shows, comics, books, basically all media.

Agree with the second, non-quoted part though.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Eh, it's more outright perhaps, because the whole culture is somewhat infantile. But There's large amounts of misogyny in movies, tv shows, comics, books, basically all media.

Agree with the second, non-quoted part though.
Well, I should have said aggressive, vocal, conscious, self-satisfied misogyny.

Originally posted by Bardock42
It's hardly sexist. Especially in gaming men are immensely privileged over women, and catered to almost exclusively.

The term "male privilege" is generally unrelated to games, and reading her work, I honestly don't think it was an honest mistake.

If this was just about games, I wouldn't mind. Women are very underrepresented in games; I don't think anyone can deny that.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Thankfully Jim Sterling already summarized the issue. Thank God for him.



She 'brought attacks on herself'? What, because she had an opinion? She didn't bring shit on herself. Nothing justifies the response she got.



Do you deny though that males are heavily favored in gaming? Most of the comments she posted really do reek of male entitlement. How is it sexist to point out a discrepancy in the market? It isn't.

Kindly check your privilege in the future.



Jim doesn't get nearly the same amount of hate when he discusses similar topics to do with women in games.

(p.s. Bardocks post rocks)

Whoa, cool your jets.

Like I said, if this was just about games, it wouldn't be a thing; but she's using it for more than that.

Thanks for the lynching, though.

No the term male privilege also refers to the many other advantages being male brings with it in our society. But it is particularly obvious in gaming for example.

This thread is about just gaming though, something broader is curently discussed in the GDF in a thread called "Sexism in America". You are right that Anita Sarkeesian's philosophy extends beyond gaming, and imo she's right. Gaming culture is a reflection of problems that exists in overall culture.

Originally posted by Bardock42
No the term male privilege also refers to the many other advantages being male brings with it in our society. But it is particularly obvious in gaming for example.

This thread is about just gaming though, something broader is curently discussed in the GDF in a thread called "Sexism in America". You are right that Anita Sarkeesian's philosophy extends beyond gaming, and imo she's right. Gaming culture is a reflection of problems that exists in overall culture.

I've already admitted that gaming is heavily skewed in favour of males. I think only a lunatic would think otherwise.

The term "male privilege" is still offensive, imo, and given some of the posts she quoted (most of which were genuinely offensive, i'm not saying otherwise), I have a hard time believing she only meant it in terms of games, and wasn't just using it as a vehicle.

Originally posted by Peach
...not a single comment she posted in the responses she got were reasonable.

"Relax, you don't need to get all bent out of shape because the protagonists in the games showcased were all males."

Why is this particular comment unreasonable? It is not inflammatory, takes nothing resembling a harsh tone, and is in fact very calm and measured.

Most of the comments are generic 4chan crap, and I do guarantee you, that the majority of the commentators were 4chan posters, whom follow everything Anita does and hate all of it.

4chan is and always will be a significant minority in any medium, gaming or otherwise.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I've already admitted that gaming is heavily skewed in favour of males. I think only a lunatic would think otherwise.

The term "male privilege" is still offensive, imo, and given some of the posts she quoted (most of which were genuinely offensive, i'm not saying otherwise), I have a hard time believing she only meant it in terms of games, and wasn't just using it as a vehicle.

How is it offensive?

We are privileged as men. In many, many areas. It's not offensive, it's just true.

I could really see male privilege at work when my dad was arrested after his current girlfriend after she falsely claimed he hit her.

At the age of 14, I thought "Wow, it sure feels good to be a man".

Maybe PR takes it to mean that "being a man is easy." I could see how that would be offensive, but I take it to mean "being a man is easier than being a woman in our society," which I don't think is offensive, just true, perhaps even trivially so.

Originally posted by Bardock42
How is it offensive?

We are privileged as men. In many, many areas. It's not offensive, it's just true.

Outside of gaming, I find it offensive tbh, as it's used by many militant sexists to make light of men's campaigns to gain equality in certain areas of life.

That said, that's something else entirely, and is off topic, so I'm not going to go any further with it.

As far as the thread goes, if she meant purely in terms of gaming, then I'm a big enough man to hold my hands up and apologise for misunderstanding and getting the wrong idea. It just wasn't how it appeared to me.

I'm sure the people that made snide (or otherwise) personal comments about me that are factually inaccurate, will do the same.

But we're still friends. Right, PR?

Originally posted by -Pr-
I'm sure the people that made snide (or otherwise) personal comments about me that are factually inaccurate, will do the same. Filthy misogynist.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
But we're still friends. Right, PR?

I don't know... I want to, but I... I'm just such a horrible human being... Am I capable of that kind of love?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Filthy misogynist.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I don't know... I want to, but I... I'm just such a horrible human being... Am I capable of that kind of love?

Probably not.

True love exists only between men. Never forget that, you two.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I could really see male privilege at work when my dad was arrested after his current girlfriend after she falsely claimed he hit her.

At the age of 14, I thought "Wow, it sure feels good to be a man".

No one's saying men have it easy in every way. Or that all men have it easier than women. Just that men have advantages in society that permit them more freedom than women. Obviously there's also intersectionality to keep in mind. White women are privileged over black men in many aspects due to their race, which awards them more opportunities. There are all sorts of things that can privilege a person (class, wealth, gender, race, nationality, sexual orientation, gender identity, and so on).




Originally posted by -Pr-
Outside of gaming, I find it offensive tbh, as it's used by many militant sexists to make light of men's campaigns to gain equality in certain areas of life.

I disagree with this very much. It's the false premise of many men right's groups that they are oppressed by women or feminists in particular. That's just plain wrong. Men do face issues due to their gender, but a pretty good case can actually be made much of it is due to the lower status of femininity (so for example a man wanting to take care of his children rather than have a career will be looked down upon in some ways for desiring to do something traditionally female. That's the fault of the same system that oppresses women (generally called patriarchy, as it has men in a leading position and women subservient (which also doesn't meant that men are oppressing women, which admittedly a few radical feminists belief, though I have not heard Anita Sarkeesian claim such)))

I don't think personal attacks have a place so I hope no one would attack you for stating your opinion, as wrong as I think it is.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Whoa, cool your jets.

Like I said, if this was just about games, it wouldn't be a thing; but she's using it for more than that.

Thanks for the lynching, though.

I wasn't intentionally being hostile, don't worry. I was being facetious when I told you to check your privilege. I'm not lame enough to be serious about that social justice shite.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I wasn't intentionally being hostile, don't worry. I was being facetious when I told you to check your privilege. I'm not lame enough to be serious about that social justice shite.

Oh shit, you had me worried there for a second.

Suppose we had gotten more female protagonists on the Xbox One or whatever else, if that had meant more characters along the lines of Bayonetta or Other M Samus, am sure I (and perhaps she too) would've said no to that anyway. As we've seen, some games with female leads can be sexist themselves.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Probably not.



Originally posted by Bardock42
No one's saying men have it easy in every way. Or that all men have it easier than women. Just that men have advantages in society that permit them more freedom than women. Obviously there's also intersectionality to keep in mind. White women are privileged over black men in many aspects due to their race, which awards them more opportunities. There are all sorts of things that can privilege a person (class, wealth, gender, race, nationality, sexual orientation, gender identity, and so on).






I disagree with this very much. It's the false premise of many men right's groups that they are oppressed by women or feminists in particular. That's just plain wrong. Men do face issues due to their gender, but a pretty good case can actually be made much of it is due to the lower status of femininity (so for example a man wanting to take care of his children rather than have a career will be looked down upon in some ways for desiring to do something traditionally female. That's the fault of the same system that oppresses women (generally called patriarchy, as it has men in a leading position and women subservient (which also doesn't meant that men are oppressing women, which admittedly a few radical feminists belief, though I have not heard Anita Sarkeesian claim such)))

I don't think personal attacks have a place so I hope no one would attack you for stating your opinion, as wrong as I think it is.

im thinking we don't disagree as much as it might seem, but this isn't the time or the place.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I wasn't intentionally being hostile, don't worry. I was being facetious when I told you to check your privilege. I'm not lame enough to be serious about that social justice shite.

my bad, though I was more aiming it at someone else than you, so apologies.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Oh shit, you had me worried there for a second.

That triggers me bro. >:[

Originally posted by -Pr-



Let me tell you a story.

Okay, so I was at this gaming expo in Phoenix, playing some game that never got released, I think it was called PsyWar--like that, without the space. Anyway, the other pair of guys were incredibly misogynistic, always cracking jokes about women and making lurid comments about the game's female protagonist. But then the game demo ends, the developers ask me what I thought, I say I think it's okay, then I go to a catering table, get some raw veggies, bacon, Cup-A-Soup--baby I got myself a stew going.

Does that answer your question?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Let me tell you a story.

Okay, so I was at this gaming expo in Phoenix, playing some game that never got released, I think it was called PsyWar--like that, without the space. Anyway, the other pair of guys were incredibly misogynistic, always cracking jokes about women and making lurid comments about the game's female protagonist. But then the game demo ends, the developers ask me what I thought, I say I think it's okay, then I go to a catering table, get some raw veggies, bacon, Cup-A-Soup--baby I got myself a stew going.

Does that answer your question?

Now I feel like there's some grand meaning about lampooning the traditional role of kitchen dweller and turning it on your head because you're a man and... Well, something that will go over my head because I feel stoopid.

***** needs to get slapped back to the kitchen.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Now I feel like there's some grand meaning about lampooning the traditional role of kitchen dweller and turning it on your head because you're a man and... Well, something that will go over my head because I feel stoopid.
Actually I was just riffing on Arrested Development.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Actually I was just riffing on Arrested Development.

I never watched it, which I'm sure is a graver crime.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I never watched it, which I'm sure is a graver crime.
Sr2PlqXw03Y

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Sr2PlqXw03Y

Originally posted by Nephthys

Kindly check your privilege in the future.

Originally posted by Nephthys

check your privilege in the future.

Originally posted by Nephthys

check your privilege

Go. Away.

Apologies, I clearly forgot to check my piety privilege.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9mppxt7XJ1r43h1bo1_400.jpg

Originally posted by Zack Fair
***** needs to get slapped back to the kitchen.

https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/2438954800/0vsmznennvqqdqewmfep.jpeg

Originally posted by Bardock42
No one's saying men have it easy in every way. Or that all men have it easier than women. Just that men have advantages in society that permit them more freedom than women.


The problem with pointing this out is that the inverse is also true, to the point where basically you're just being discriminatory if you make a big deal out of one side (male privilege) but don't make the same stink about the other (female privilege).

One can argue that one side's privileges aren't as significant as the others, or are more justifiable, but imo that's pretty arbitrary, and doesn't belong in an appeal to logic, especially in a logical appeal that is about "equality".

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
The problem with pointing this out is that the inverse is also true, to the point where basically you're just being discriminatory if you make a big deal out of one side (male privilege) but don't make the same stink about the other (female privilege).

One can argue that one side's privileges aren't as significant as the others, or are more justifiable, but imo that's pretty arbitrary, and doesn't belong in an appeal to logic, especially in a logical appeal that is about "equality".
You are completely wrong about that, of course. Arguing the extend of oppression or privilege is definitely not arbitrary. And it's also important to do if you want to figure out how to come to an equal situation.

By the same logic you could say that a person with a gunshot wound to the chest should not be treated before someone with a papercut on their fingertip and they should have equal time and consideration by doctors, which is obviously ridiculous.

The real issue is when the ignorance of someone's male privilege makes them commit harmful things to other people, which is in essence what Anita has been pointing out there.

Detrimental effects of men by the patriarchal system is an interesting and important issue, but lets be honest here, almost all of the research on it has been performed by (liberal) feminist women and some feminist men, so it is double-y unfair of radical MRA's ("Men's Rights Activists" whose ideology is completely flawed) to blame the only people actually speaking out about the issues men face. (who are incidentally also not to blame at all)

Equality is best for everyone, right?

Originally posted by Bardock42
You are completely wrong about that, of course. Arguing the extend of oppression or privilege is definitely not arbitrary. And it's also important to do if you want to figure out how to come to an equal situation.

By the same logic you could say that a person with a gunshot wound to the chest should not be treated before someone with a papercut on their fingertip and they should have equal time and consideration by doctors, which is obviously ridiculous.

The real issue is when the ignorance of someone's male privilege makes them commit harmful things to other people, which is in essence what Anita has been pointing out there.

Detrimental effects of men by the patriarchal system is an interesting and important issue, but lets be honest here, almost all of the research on it has been performed by (liberal) feminist women and some feminist men, so it is double-y unfair of radical MRA's ("Men's Rights Activists" whose ideology is completely flawed) to blame the only people actually speaking out about the issues men face. (who are incidentally also not to blame at all) No, you're flat out incorrect. Sorry to break it to you, but it's entirely arbitrary.

In 85% of domestic abuse incidents, women are the victims.

In 88% of custody battles, the mother wins.

Prove factoid A is "a bigger deal" than factoid B. You can't. You think you can, because your moral compass tells you that "it should be obvious" that factoid A is more important, but no one gives a shit about your moral compass (especially the father who lost custody of his kids to his crackhead ex-wife), and that's why it's arbitrary.

The problem that many feminists fail to see, yourself included apparently, is that civil rights movements succeed by drumming up sympathy for the oppressed. Sitting on a street corner and getting the shit beaten out of you, Martin Luther King style, works much better at getting the general public to feel bad for your circumstances than walking down the street kicking the ass out of everyone who doesn't let you take a sip from the whites' water fountain. You might be justified in doing the latter, maybe those white people you beat up had it coming because they've been oppressing blacks forever, but you aren't doing yourself any favors in the long run. Congrats, "you were right", but the very people that you're trying to get sympathy from now just feel resentment. That isn't going to help your cause.

Similarly, while you might feel that if you're a Christian Caucasian Male you've got it way easier in life than women, I can guarantee you that shouting it from the rooftops is just going to make christian Caucasian males resentful... which isn't going to help your little movement any. So, why are you surprised when those same caucasion christian males later spit on you when you complain about inequality?

If you're going to shout "EQUALITY, EQUALITY!" than be equal. Don't trivialize or justify one groups circumstances in favor of another.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Equality is best for everyone, right?

http://i.imgur.com/5umICuy.jpg

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
No, you're flat out incorrect. Sorry to break it to you, but it's entirely arbitrary.

In 85% of domestic abuse incidents, women are the victims.

Don't think that's true.

Sorry, off topic I know. Shutting up about it now.

Originally posted by KingD19
http://i.imgur.com/5umICuy.jpg

It might not be, tbh. They're both stats I just ripped off the first source that popped up on google searches.

Either way, the actual figures aren't really necessary for my overall point. You can swap them with any figures.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
No, you're flat out incorrect. Sorry to break it to you, but it's entirely arbitrary.

In 85% of domestic abuse incidents, women are the victims.

In 88% of custody battles, the mother wins.

Prove factoid A is "a bigger deal" than factoid B. You can't. You think you can, because your moral compass tells you that "it should be obvious" that factoid A is more important, but no one gives a shit about your moral compass (especially the father who lost custody of his kids to his crackhead ex-wife), and that's why it's arbitrary.

The problem that many feminists fail to see, yourself included apparently, is that civil rights movements succeed by drumming up sympathy for the oppressed. Sitting on a street corner and getting the shit beaten out of you, Martin Luther King style, works much better at getting the general public to feel bad for your circumstances than walking down the street kicking the ass out of everyone who doesn't let you take a sip from the whites' water fountain. You might be justified in doing the latter, maybe those white people you beat up had it coming because they've been oppressing blacks forever, but you aren't doing yourself any favors in the long run. Congrats, "you were right", but the very people that you're trying to get sympathy from now just feel resentment. That isn't going to help your cause.

Similarly, while you might feel that if you're a Christian Caucasian Male you've got it way easier in life than women, I can guarantee you that shouting it from the rooftops is just going to make christian Caucasian males resentful... which isn't going to help your little movement any. So, why are you surprised when those same caucasion christian males later spit on you when you complain about inequality?

If you're going to shout "EQUALITY, EQUALITY!" than be equal. Don't trivialize or justify one groups circumstances in favor of another.

You can reduce everything to "it's relative to my morals", that's not a particularly new discovery. But you can also try to quantify the impact something has and for yourself decide what you think is worse. For example my papercut argument, sure it's not absolute, you can argue it, but almost everyone will agree. Similarly most people will agree that say 1 in 4 women getting sexually abused is worse than some men being mocked for liking feminine assigned things.

However at any rate you can convince people to see things your way, and that's where I am sort of losing what you are saying. Are you advocating a non-violent/passive or a violent/aggressive approach? Because I believe both can work, the civil rights movement itself is a good example of that. At any rate I don't think my approach or Anita's is in any way agressive or violent. It may hurt feelings of some people who are not used to having their advantages pointed out to them, but that's hardly the same as actual aggression or violence.

And talking about making the privileged group resentful, I don't think MLKs non-violent approach shielded him from immense resentment.

But I'd be interested, what, in your opinion, would help my little movement if at the very least speaking out on a forum about it (to be honest, that is the bare minimum I can think of, any less pro-activeness and I'd be sitting on my couch doing nothing)


As for your edit, again, feminists are the only ones actually discussing and working against the root of men's oppression. Scapegoating them is unjustified.

The numbers for the US is that 75% of convicted domestic abusers are male, while 75% of the victims in these cases are female (you can make a very good point about dark figures and court bias however, so those numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt (as in men are more likely to be reported and convicted, and they are less likely to report). Further complicated is the issue by severity of the abuse, i.e. considerably more women die due to it.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
It might not be, tbh. They're both stats I just ripped off the first source that popped up on google searches.

Either way, the actual figures aren't really necessary for my overall point. You can swap them with any figures.

Oh, of course. It just stood out to me when I glanced at your post was all.

========

So, them games and feminism... Speaking of, did anyone else play Tomb Raider?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Oh, of course. It just stood out to me when I glanced at your post was all.

========

So, them games and feminism... Speaking of, did anyone else play Tomb Raider?

I have both Underworld and new Tomb Raider, but didn't play them yet.

The new one is better than Underworld, even if blind firing is somehow absent.

Originally posted by -Pr-
The new one is better than Underworld, even if blind firing is somehow absent.

I like her redesign definitely. I've never been a big fan of Tomb Raider before, the only games I really played felt really broken and not fun at all. But that was like 12 years ago or so...

Oh, also, just want to add, that quote you have Blax, that was by far the best Epic Rap Battle of History (Lincoln is knocking it out of the park in it)

Originally posted by Bardock42
I like her redesign definitely. I've never been a big fan of Tomb Raider before, the only games I really played felt really broken and not fun at all. But that was like 12 years ago or so...

Oh, also, just want to add, that quote you have Blax, that was by far the best Epic Rap Battle of History (Lincoln is knocking it out of the park in it)

I've been a tomb raider fan since the very first game, and this game is the best by far in terms of gameplay and presentation. Even with the controversy going on, it's still well worth playing.

Not enough tigers and sharks for my taste. I did enjoy stabbing people in the throat with my arrows though. Nothin' like a good stabbin. -makes stabby motions-

Originally posted by -Pr-
I've been a tomb raider fan since the very first game, and this game is the best by far in terms of gameplay and presentation. Even with the controversy going on, it's still well worth playing.

Is there a controversy still going on? The ones I can recall happened a while ago.

I'd play it right now, but it's really my girlfriend's game and she doesn't like when I play her games first. So I'm playing Deus Ex: Human Revolution instead.

I'm another one that's played it since the very first game

that last one from Core, Angel Of Darkness....i know it wasn't received well but i did like the RPG element to it when talking to people and walking around in the city even if it was a small area.

Originally posted by Bardock42
No one's saying men have it easy in every way. Or that all men have it easier than women. Just that men have advantages in society that permit them more freedom than women.

Do they now? Do tell.



I am not entirely sure why you are bringing up how race plays a part in it, because from my point of view it isn't relevant.

The use of terms like "male privilege" is inherently damaging, because it promotes an "us vs. them" viewpoint, in that it asserts that their issues are entirely worse/more important than men's.

Now, I ask you, would you claim to know exactly how it feels to be a woman Bardock? I will assume no. Why then, could a woman claim to know how it feels to be a man, with all certainty?

Women face oppression and have gender-related issues, that is true, but so do men. The justice system is heavily slanted in favor of women, things that would get a man thrown in prison for years have a woman sent to house arrest (Debra Lafave is the case I am thinking of at the moment). Blax has already touched on cases of child custody, and indeed on much of what I would have said in general. Men also have expectations in demeanor and mindset, being conditioned to express little to no emotion (Which as mentioned in that gay as **** GDF thread is a good contender for top reasons so many men play pin the razor-blade on the artery).

To arbitrarily place one group's problems in a pedestal as "worse" enforces "us vs. them", and makes it hard for "them" to value the legitimate issues "us" has, because it trivializes the issues of "them".

I don't know how hard it is to be a woman, since I am not one. I do have an idea of the difficulties one can face from being both a man, and from having a non-hetero orientation, so I can try to evaluate the issues those groups face (Mostly the former, since the latter are far more well-known), but I would not dare attempt to put the difficulties of being a man above those of being a woman, because there is no way I could know. And the same is true for any woman. Sure, they can study and look at various problems affecting both genders, but she would have no idea how gender-issues related to being a man affect the men in question.

That said: I would agree with your stance that many of the problems facing men are fabricated by men. I'm not familiar enough on the concept of Patriarchy to label that as the origin (My only knowledge on the subject being from the mouths of misogynists), but I do think that a lot of the favoring of women in the Justice System or the inhibitions placed upon male behavior are male-created. Women are not the only ones forced into gender roles. Just as women are more typically expected to be nurses rather than doctors (Okay, sort of a real outdated example, but it is rather late), men are expected to not be, and it is thought of as less manly to be a nurse even today by many.

tl;dr, bullshit terms like "male privilege" make the problem worse and are founded by faulty and arbitrary assumptions, also you're a ****ing German **** you Scheisstkoft or however that shit is pronounced. estahuh

Sorry if there are spelling errors and shit in this post or if it is sorta incoherent, it is once again pretty late.

Could we not turn this into a wider thread about the concept of of sexism etc in general, thanks.

I notice with that twitter comment about female protagonist for the next generation

and what gets revealed Mirrors Edge 2.

Originally posted by Kazenji
I notice with that twitter comment about female protagonist for the next generation

and what gets revealed Mirrors Edge 2. Oh shit, I didn't even notice that, lol.

gg

Originally posted by Kazenji
I notice with that twitter comment about female protagonist for the next generation

and what gets revealed Mirrors Edge 2.

Don't... ruin... the... narrative!

Far from it.....

I'm only pointing out how she was wrong from her twitter thing

seriously she's like a little kid going "No more milk for a chocolate milkshake"....look again there is milk.

She wasn't wrong at all- her comment was about Microsoft's XBox One presentation. She is specifically complimentary about Mirror's Edge 2.

Ush is correct, the very next post on her tumblr points out and praises the couple of games featuring women http://femfreq.tumblr.com/post/52752086803/new-video-game-trailers-featuring-women-at-e3-2013 (at EA and Sony conference, not Xbox One, since they didn't have any). Though that is still a tiny number when comparing it to the demographics of gamers. Again dadudemon's point that it's not shocking or extreme for the gaming industry is correct, but that is really the issue, isn't it? The gaming industry is immensely male focussed.


In tangential news, there's this really great project on indiegogo called "App Camp for Girls" which aims to get girls into programming and app development (which would of course extend to game development). They are already funded to their goal, but obviously more funding would give them more options, if anyone is interested in that here's the link http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/app-camp-for-girls

Originally posted by Bardock42
Is there a controversy still going on? The ones I can recall happened a while ago.

I'd play it right now, but it's really my girlfriend's game and she doesn't like when I play her games first. So I'm playing Deus Ex: Human Revolution instead.

When I said going on, I meant at the time, not nowadays. That whole "rape" thing was crazy.

Mirror's Edge 2 wasn't enough for her huh? Forget trying to please people like that then.

Read above. It did please her.

Bardock, you could at least respond to my multi-paragraph post with a "You make some points but I can't agree with all of it" or "Wow you're a genius, a ruggedly-handsome devil with eyes that have qualities of green, grey, and blue yet can not be accurately called any one of them", or even "Oi **** you mate fite me irl".

I know Ush said not to continue the discussion, but some acknowledgement would be nice. ._.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Read above. It did please her.
I meant it didn't seem to please her enough as it should have.

Back to the main discussion, lolfeminists.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Bardock, you could at least respond to my multi-paragraph post with a "You make some points but I can't agree with all of it" or "Wow you're a genius, a ruggedly-handsome devil with eyes that have qualities of green, grey, and blue yet can not be accurately called any one of them", or even "Oi **** you mate fite me irl".

I know Ush said not to continue the discussion, but some acknowledgement would be nice. ._.

I could, surely.

I was going to reply to you in PM when I found the time, if it is alright with you uhuh

Though, if you want a tl;dr: I disagree with what you say, especially in your interpretation of the term privilege, which imo, does not have the inherent us vs. them character that you make it out to have. And I believe that considering the severity of the detrimental effects and a weighing of them is important, for example to determine who might be in more need of aid.

My reply wouldn't bring anything new to the table, my points are still the same, we'd just continue arguing the,

Only if you bring nudes of a 93 year old Austrian woman and her dog.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
I meant it didn't seem to please her enough as it should have.

Back to the main discussion, lolfeminists.

Why should one game alone please her and shut her up? The vast majority of games showed where still catering to a male gamer stereotype. That doesn't vanish just because one (or actually a couple) games don't have that issue.

What games were demonstrated for Xbone?

http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/microsoft-e3-2013-press-conference/

Originally posted by Bardock42
Why should one game alone please her and shut her up? The vast majority of games showed where still catering to a male gamer stereotype. That doesn't vanish just because one (or actually a couple) games don't have that issue.
How many games with female leads does there have to be to shut her up then? I've known certain feminists who won't be satisfied until there comes a day where there's as many female heroes in comics and other forms of fiction as there are males, and like that's ever gonna happen.

Besides, Mirror's Edge 2 looks better than a lot of those games catering to the male gamer stereotype. Quality > quantity.

Also,

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Suppose we had gotten more female protagonists on the Xbox One or whatever else, if that had meant more characters along the lines of Bayonetta or Other M Samus, am sure I (and perhaps she too) would've said no to that anyway. As we've seen, some games with female leads can be sexist themselves.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
How many games with female leads does there have to be to shut her up then? I've known certain feminists who won't be satisfied until there comes a day where there's as many female heroes in comics and other forms of fiction as there are males, and like that's ever gonna happen.

Besides, Mirror's Edge 2 looks better than a lot of those games catering to the male gamer stereotype. Quality > quantity.

Also,

45/55 (split of gamers by gender allegedly) would be a start



And why shouldn't fetishized women be discounted from such a count, it again caters to male gamers.

I guess it would be a start though.



And why can 50/50 never happen? There's no reason. Men aren't naturally incapable of sympathizing with female leads.

If the majority of gamers weren't male to begin with, things would be different I'm sure. While I'm not one for having most games be a sausagefest, catering to the male demographic often is what gets devs the most money far as games go.

If NemeBro allows it I shall post my reply to him in the America and Sexism thread.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
If the majority of gamers weren't male to begin with, things would be different I'm sure. While I'm not one for having most games be a sausagefest, catering to the male demographic often is what gets devs the most money far as games go.


Well, like I said it's not like men are actually a considerably larger group than female gamers.

The conventional wisdom is indeed that games with female leads (or catering to women) don't make as much money, however that is not in any way proven, it's just a lazy assumption. And we know that some games with female leads have been successful enough.

At any rate that's fundamentally what Anita Sarkeesian is trying to change. She's trying to get game developers to consider what they do and perhaps take chances on more inclusive games, and she's trying to educate the massess to support and ask for inclusive games. I think both those goals are excellent and what she's doing is the exact right way to do it (not the only right way, but one of the right ways). Another approach is for example the App Camp for girls thing I posted previously, trying to get more girls interested in development.

i dident see the big deal that XboxOne revealed zero games featuring a female protagonist. However only a jackass would call a woman a ****

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
If the majority of gamers weren't male to begin with, things would be different I'm sure. While I'm not one for having most games be a sausagefest, catering to the male demographic often is what gets devs the most money far as games go.

That's a circular argument, though, when the games market is making games mostly FOR males, on the assumption that that is all that sells (which, as Bardock says, is spurious). You can't use the fact that the games market has created itself as a male-dominated business as an excuse for it staying that way, or use the fact that you are creating games that, basically, women hate and say that's a good reason why only male-dominated games sell. It's not some natural, desirable state of affairs. More and more females are getting into gaming now and the market should be trying to reflect that.

That's one part of the argument. The other part is not just about the market direction of gaming but how blatantly sexist a lot of it is- how even if not a single woman played games (a ludicrous assertion, of course), its portrayal of women would still be undesirable.

A more holistic games market would be larger in both scale and sales, would avoid the moral question mark and would frankly offer more choice for everyone. You could still have the straight male power fantasy and sexualised female representations (and people would be feel to criticise them for that), but it wouldn't be the vast majority of the market.

I don't think it's any coincidence that MMOs (where women have more freedom to play the characters they want to play, how they want to play them) have been a major reason for why more women than ever are gaming nowadays.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
If the majority of gamers weren't male to begin with, things would be different I'm sure. While I'm not one for having most games be a sausagefest, catering to the male demographic often is what gets devs the most money far as games go.

Men are only still the majority by a very slim margin.

As to why games targeted to them make more money - I already pointed this out previously. Games with female leads get on average 40% of the marketing budget that games with male leads do. No shit they're going to make more money off games with male leads and marketed solely to men if they spend more money getting the game out there and advertised!

Also, while this is a few months old now, it's a worthwhile read, even if I abhor Penny Arcade and Ben Kuchera in particular has rather gone off the deep end in the past few weeks.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/games-with-female-heroes-dont-sell-because-publishers-dont-support-them



24 out of 669 games with female leads. That's not even 4%.

Originally posted by KingD19
http://i.imgur.com/5umICuy.jpg





Legit rofls were had for my breakfast.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
It might not be, tbh. They're both stats I just ripped off the first source that popped up on google searches.

Either way, the actual figures aren't really necessary for my overall point. You can swap them with any figures.

I agree with your point but not the figures. Those figures were ones compiled by law enforcement, iirc. Meaning, "shit that got reported." I believe a study was done that showed men were more often, physically abused by women than men do to them. The problem is...men...get much much worse than women with the battery. So they cause more severe injuries much more often. Bards already mentioned that men are less likely to report when shit gets real for men, too. Here is what might bake your noodle: real feminists (not the dumb ones...you know the ones) want equality and fairness for all genders. They want the bullshit idea that men don't have feelings to fade from existence. If a man suffers from a physically abusive female partner, he shouldn't feel ashamed to seek help. Another shocker might be that real feminists find things like "easier physical tests for women" to get into the military to be sexist. A real feminist would want the women to have to pass the same physical fitness standards as the men.

Take a look at the difference between the male and female tests:

http://www.military.com/military-fitness/marine-corps-fitness-requirements/usmc-pft-charts

WTF, brah?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Again dadudemon's point that it's not shocking or extreme for the gaming industry is correct, but that is really the issue, isn't it? The gaming industry is immensely male focused.

Right on point, dude. I should point out that I do not disagree with her overall goals/plans with gaming nor do I have a problem with her approach (other than her being boring).

I also agree with Ushgarak that changes need to come to the gaming industry.

HOWEVER....I think the changes should not be getting rid of what we have, now, but ADDING. There is still room to grow in the gaming industry. Every now and again, I think it's awesome to play a fighting game with an overly sexualized female (or an overly superhuman male hero like any comic book hero). But it is also nice to take a main character, who is female, seriously.


I may catch flack for this, but I was really pleased with the look and presentation of the new Lara Croft in the 2013 Tomb Raider. In fact, I found this version to be the sexiest of all. Here's why: she is attractive but her boobs are not huge, she is capable and skilled but not like Bayonetta crap, she is intelligent and highly educated (as opposed to the generic ass-kicking brawler type), and she undergoes actual character developed in the video game. I think those traits make her sexier than ever.


http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z238/dadudemon/gamergirls.png

What is wrong with liking the new Lara Croft?

Along with being a pretty cool young lady, she is indeed teh hawt.

Her bewbs are still pretty big though. Maybe not as big.

I also like how she isn't wearing those stupid short shorts. Something about them always bothered me.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, like I said it's not like men are actually a considerably larger group than female gamers.

The conventional wisdom is indeed that games with female leads (or catering to women) don't make as much money, however that is not in any way proven, it's just a lazy assumption. And we know that some games with female leads have been successful enough.

At any rate that's fundamentally what Anita Sarkeesian is trying to change. She's trying to get game developers to consider what they do and perhaps take chances on more inclusive games, and she's trying to educate the massess to support and ask for inclusive games. I think both those goals are excellent and what she's doing is the exact right way to do it (not the only right way, but one of the right ways). Another approach is for example the App Camp for girls thing I posted previously, trying to get more girls interested in development.
True, whatever gap there might've been between the number of male and female gamers has become smaller and smaller.

Perhaps, perhaps not, but regardless yeah. There have been such games, and hope to see more successful ones along the lines of the latest Tomb Raider in the future.

While I kinda find her annoying in a way she definitely doesn't deserve much of the flak she's been getting, but such was to be expected from some of your typical commentators I guess. Other than that I agree the App Camp thing is a great way to go.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
That's a circular argument, though, when the games market is making games mostly FOR males, on the assumption that that is all that sells (which, as Bardock says, is spurious). You can't use the fact that the games market has created itself as a male-dominated business as an excuse for it staying that way, or use the fact that you are creating games that, basically, women hate and say that's a good reason why only male-dominated games sell. It's not some natural, desirable state of affairs. More and more females are getting into gaming now and the market should be trying to reflect that.

That's one part of the argument. The other part is not just about the market direction of gaming but how blatantly sexist a lot of it is- how even if not a single woman played games (a ludicrous assertion, of course), its portrayal of women would still be undesirable.

A more holistic games market would be larger in both scale and sales, would avoid the moral question mark and would frankly offer more choice for everyone. You could still have the straight male power fantasy and sexualised female representations (and people would be feel to criticise them for that), but it wouldn't be the vast majority of the market.
Nowhere did I say that games made mainly for males are all that sells, nor am I necessarily trying to make excuses for gaming to remain as it is as far as being a primarily male-dominated business.

Yeah, nothing to really disagree with on the whole sexism part there.

That all would certainly be a lesser evil compared to what we got going now...

Originally posted by NemeBro
What is wrong with liking the new Lara Croft?

Along with being a pretty cool young lady, she is indeed teh hawt.

Her bewbs are still pretty big though. Maybe not as big.

I also like how she isn't wearing those stupid short shorts. Something about them always bothered me.
Same here regarding the short shorts.

Originally posted by dadudemon

I may catch flack for this, but I was really pleased with the look and presentation of the new Lara Croft in the 2013 Tomb Raider. In fact, I found this version to be the sexiest of all. Here's why: she is attractive but her boobs are not huge, she is capable and skilled but not like Bayonetta crap, she is intelligent and highly educated (as opposed to the generic ass-kicking brawler type), and she undergoes actual character developed in the video game. I think those traits make her sexier than ever.

Why would you catch flak for that?

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Nowhere did I say that games made mainly for males are all that sells, nor am I necessarily trying to make excuses for gaming to remain as it is as far as being a primarily male-dominated business.

Well, you did say the situation is down to gamers being mostly male and that the profit was to be found in catering for that demographic. I was pointing out that that argument is circular for the reasons I gave. Treat the post as attacking that excuse from developers rather than your position if you prefer.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Why would you catch flak for that? For perceived objectification, I assume.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
For perceived objectification, I assume.

This and the other side of things: she had things attractive about her other than her assets. This thread seems to have several of the other side of the feminist argument. It's fairly polar.

Oh, okay...

The main issue with the new Tomb Raider is that it revels in beating the shit out of a young, traumatized woman.

It is an amazing game, and I did greatly enjoy the new characterization and look they gave Lara. However, the game is still not without its issues.

That said, I am glad that games like Tomb Raider, Mirror's Edge, Remember Me, exist. At the same time, I am saddened by the fact that they are so uncommon.

Not sure what you mean, here. Video game protagonists generally go through some god awful things. Especially if you fail a crucial QTE. shrug Wouldn't sparing her the violence because she's a young, traumatized woman actually be sexist and perpetuate the flawed idea that female protagonists need to be treated more gently?

I'm speaking solely on the subject of the game beating her up, here.

No, and obviously as games that don't contain violence are few and far between, there's going to be some level of it there. I mean more that the game goes out of its way to inflict horrible things on her - there's definitely a level of violence towards Lara that I haven't often seen towards the main character of other games very often.

I haven't played the game, but the trailer was definitely designed to show her getting beaten up and attacked and in pain with lots of suggestive moans, etc. Was kinda sick, but the game might still be good obviously.

In theory that should make it that much more satisfying and moving when she gains the position of strength and rises.

However I can totally believe that its gratuitous and emotionally manipulative. I think thats basically what they said.

I honestly felt like the barbarism and violence, while being a device to make you sympathise with her, was also positive in the sense that it portrayed just how brutal and dangerous her situation was.

Not to mention that by the end of the game, Lara is just as capable of dishing it out as she is taking it, and some of those kills she can perform are pretty nasty.

I think that, being an origin story, and wanting to fit that entire "taking her from point a to point b" theme in to one game, they were going to have to push her to extremes to achieve it. And it made sense, too. This game was the making of Lara, and I honestly enjoyed it.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
shrug Wouldn't sparing her the violence because she's a young, traumatized woman actually be sexist and perpetuate the flawed idea that female protagonists need to be treated more gently?

I'm speaking solely on the subject of the game beating her up, here.

Ummm, yes, you're right. Showing a capable woman succeed in a game without having her run around in a bikini is one of many types of iterations that a real feminist would want from a video game. "Men aren't the only ones that can overcome both physical and mental hardships: women are strong, too."

In most video games, the protagonist role is some iteration of a strong male that must overcome the odds. That's the sexist part that people are trying to change. While it may be true that even twins (one male and one female) will have a massive difference in physical capability (assuming both train just as hard and eat just as well), this doesn't mean that you cannot have a physically and mentally strong female lead your games. Sure, even in twin studies of untrained siblings, the males were significantly stronger (and the strength gap becomes much more pronounced if they are trained athletes), we can still have strong female leads in games that do some major ass-kicking.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Ummm, yes, you're right. Showing a capable woman succeed in a game without having her run around in a bikini is one of many types of iterations that a real feminist would want from a video game. "Men aren't the only ones that can overcome both physical and mental hardships: women are strong, too."

In most video games, the protagonist role is some iteration of a strong male that must overcome the odds. That's the sexist part that people are trying to change. While it may be true that even twins (one male and one female) will have a massive difference in physical capability (assuming both train just as hard and eat just as well), this doesn't mean that you cannot have a physically and mentally strong female lead your games. Sure, even in twin studies of untrained siblings, the males were significantly stronger (and the strength gap becomes much more pronounced if they are trained athletes), we can still have strong female leads in games that do some major ass-kicking.

That's just biology. I don't think the fact that they're twins makes much of a difference.

While there may not be as many female protagonists in gaming as many would like, I think there have been great strides in female characters in gaming in general. Particularly when it comes to supporting characters.

Games like Walking Dead, Mass Effect, Half Life 2 and the recently released Last of Us all have exceptional female characters with depth and personality. And while these characters I'm referring aren't the 'lead' character, they are arguably more important. Look not further than Half Life 2. While you control Gorden Freeman, and he's technically a protagonist, he is barely a character. You are not meant to project any emotional attachment to him. That designation belongs to Alyx Vance, she's meant to be the character the player connects with. The same goes for The Walking Dead with Clementine and The Last of Us with Ellie. You don't control these characters, but they're just as important, if not more so, than the characters you control from a story telling perspective. They are the catalysts for emotional investment in the story.

I still say Lieutenant Mira in Space Marine is the toughest woman in any video game.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I still say Lieutenant Mira in Space Marine is the toughest woman in any video game. Never played Snake Eater I take it?

Originally posted by -Pr-
I still say Lieutenant Mira in Space Marine is the toughest woman in any video game.
You wouldn't be far off. T'was a nifty inclusion.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Never played Snake Eater I take it?

I did, my point still stands.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
You wouldn't be far off. T'was a nifty inclusion.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I did, my point still stands. Well it is pretty self-evident that you're wrong, though.

Also fat.

Fite me irl

Originally posted by NemeBro
Well it is pretty self-evident that you're wrong, though.

Also fat.

Fite me irl

Originally posted by NemeBro
Well it is pretty self-evident that you're wrong, though.

Also fat.

Fite me irl

Originally posted by -Pr-


(in a Nature and Wildlife Narrator's voice)And now we observe an alpha and a beta's interaction behavior. Look at the beta's submissiveness to the alpha's control assertion.

he wishes it was that easy.

This is messed up: http://flygirlgamers.com/game-on-ladies/

Props to the girl who spoke up and started talking shit back.

That's what is going to get women accepted in the gaming community. Win, then talk mad shit.

It's a shame he didn't tell us what their gamertags are. I'd love to give them shit.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Props to the girl who spoke up and started talking shit back.

That's what is going to get women accepted in the gaming community. Win, then talk mad shit. Blax, you're a creepy dude who pretends to be a girl on Steam, have you experienced stuff like this?

The opposite, actually. I've gotten about 20 friend invites from topping the leaderboard in Dawn of War 2.

Whenever there's some shit-talking in the chat about being a girl, it's usually retracted by the end of the game.

I should try it. See how well the Chivalry community takes to a girl gamer having the consistent top score.

It's a lot of fun, tbh.

I get so much praise, even when I'm playing just average.

Whore.

I do more to integrate women into video game society in 15 minutes of gameplay than most actual women do in the entire lives.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
It's a lot of fun, tbh.

I get so much praise, even when I'm playing just average.

http://i41.tinypic.com/ncxfsg.jpg

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
I do more to integrate women into video game society in 15 minutes of gameplay than most actual women do in the entire lives. I'll integrate my fist into your face.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
The opposite, actually. I've gotten about 20 friend invites from topping the leaderboard in Dawn of War 2.

Whenever there's some shit-talking in the chat about being a girl, it's usually retracted by the end of the game.

Ppl still play DoW2?? Thot that game died long ago.

I still prefer the original DoW, tho. Wish they'd make a sequel tht was more DoW 1 than 2.

I still play Retribution, from time to time.

Originally posted by -Pr-
This is messed up: http://flygirlgamers.com/game-on-ladies/
That kinda shit reminds me, I remember at one point the devs of Halo 4 said they would be perma-banning the kind of guys described in that Mass Effect 3 scenario ("*****, go back to the kitchen" if they were caught using that kind of talk online (which is usually after being buttsore from losing against girls), but don't know if that's something still in effect or not. Either way, that's something that should maybe be done more often with games, then the sexist talk guys online can be the ones going back to the kitchen... lol

Originally posted by BackFire
While there may not be as many female protagonists in gaming as many would like, I think there have been great strides in female characters in gaming in general. Particularly when it comes to supporting characters.

Games like Walking Dead, Mass Effect, Half Life 2 and the recently released Last of Us all have exceptional female characters with depth and personality. And while these characters I'm referring aren't the 'lead' character, they are arguably more important. Look not further than Half Life 2. While you control Gorden Freeman, and he's technically a protagonist, he is barely a character. You are not meant to project any emotional attachment to him. That designation belongs to Alyx Vance, she's meant to be the character the player connects with. The same goes for The Walking Dead with Clementine and The Last of Us with Ellie. You don't control these characters, but they're just as important, if not more so, than the characters you control from a story telling perspective. They are the catalysts for emotional investment in the story.
Would Cortana count? I mean prior to her rampancy.

I have just had my first experience as a "girl gamer". Playing Chivalry: Medieval Warfare. I played with Blax, who was also masquerading as a young lady.

It wasn't bad, actually, people seemed to think I was a cool young lady. It likely helps that I consistently was the tippity top of the scoreboards for all but one game (Where I was like fourth or some shit), out of something like six or seven games. The only person who really doubted my abilities despite apparently being a girl was in the first game when I joined, he said "When did girls grow dicks and decide they could play videogames?" That promptly stopped when it became painfully apparent that I was the best player on the server. Though, I do wonder if, assuming I was kinda meh or bad, if he would have stopped. If not, I can see why a less skilled female would be angry at being mocked while at the same time being punched in the face.

There was also some sexual harassment, but only from two guys who were trolling in general. I was talkative on the chat, but just ignored when people said shit like asking if they could add me on Steam and send me nudes. They were obviously trolls, and seemed to know eachother, and indeed when one was kicked for deliberate team killing, the other abandoned the game.

All in all, my first experience as a girl while online gaming was okay.

Also, since I am a true dudebro neckbeard, I created a persona for my female self. A hard-working young southern woman who has spent most of her life on a farm, and is tall, strong, and with a healthy farmer's tan.

I find online PC gaming have a lot less sexist bullshit.

Well, at least in TF2 where a fair number of them are girl gamers.

I am his sassy, streetwise inner-city black lesbian friend, I guess.

I suck balls at Chivalry, so I can't comment too much on his experience in that, but I find that it's consistent with my gameplay experiences in Dawn of War 2, where I'm regularly champion on the post-game leaderboard.

The most hostility I get is pre-game, in the lobby- where the other players have a tendency to groan at the notion of a having a girl on the team. By the time the game's over I'm treated pretty normally, though.

When I played DCUO, I found that I tended to draw attention away from female players in group events... By showing up as my character, who's actually based on Aquaman.

Change their tune quickly enough when I'm the one not dying and running around rezzing people while cycling my DOTs.