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New Theory and Speculation..

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If there is a surprise in Episode III, how about this...

Anakin erased the records of Kamino from the Jedi archive.



To understand this idea, you must understand when the records wre most likely erased.

The records were erased after TPM. Why would Sidious be concerned with the record of Kamino prior to TPM? Up until the defeat of the TF in TPM, Sidious's plan was to use the might of the TF to force worlds to willingly give up power. I don't think he planned to create a clone army or anything along those lines, so there would be no need to remove Kamino from the records.

Second, you must understand why Dooku could not have been the one to erase the records.

TOS states that Dooku left the Order and disappeared for years and that he did not resurface until AOTC. How could Dooku have gotten back into the temple without anyone knowing it? Also, he could not have been Sidious's apprentice until after TPM when Maul was killed (two Sith rule), so how would he have known to erase the Kamino file even when he was in the Order?

Third, it would not make sense for the culprit to be some 3rd party such as Sifo-Dyas or another Jedi. (See Palpatine is a Clawdite.)

Erasing the files is a critical step in the process of creating the clone army and a key advancement of the plot. Whoever did it is most likely a central character. It will not be some character who was merely mentioned in passing.

To me the Anakin is the only possibility:

1) Anakin is also young and naive just as Padme was in TPM. Sidious/Palpatine knows this so why wouldn't he take advantage of it?

2) Anakin has a tremendous amount of respect for Palpatine...to the point of obeying his commands. Palpatine has told Anakin what he wants to hear (i.e. "You do not need guidance" "You will the most powerful of all Jedi." etc) so Anakin feels a strong connection with him.

3) Palpatine is the Chancellor and he is technically in command of the Jedi. Out of loyalty Anakin could have erased the files.

4) Anakin does not know the significance of Kamino as of the time of AOTC. He could still have thought nothing of Sidious/Palpatine's request that the files be erased. Palpatine could have suggested that Anakin accompany Padme because he knew Obi-Wan would soon find the clone army on Kamino; thus giving away the significance of that planet.

5) This alliance with Sidious/Palpatine would be the "final straw" that gets him booted out of the order. It could also be this betrayal of the Jedi that leads him to the Dark Side.

Some of you may say that this is "highly unlikely" and you would be right. That's why it works as a surprise.


Your thoughts... And please stay on topic..

The records would have most likely been deleted at the point the Clone Army was produced. Anakin would have been way too young to be doing such a thing, I feel.

Dooku almost certainly had time to erase the records before he left IF he was already turning evil at that point, which is a grey area.

This is your best yet although I don't see Anakin erasing the files during the time frame mentioned as he would have surely had no window of oppurtunity to accomplish this objective. I think he would have been at Obi-Wan's side throughout the ten years between films. But then again he did find time to get guidence from Palpatine so I really don't know....it does make for excellent and new speculation though!

i think palpatine did it

In his role as Chancellor of the Republic? He sure couldn't manage it if he went there as Sidious!

im pretty sure anakin couldn't have erased the files cuz he was still good then.

And he was a bit young to have gotten away with it.

I certainly believe it was an inside job. How could any outsider do it? I don't buy that Sidious clouded every Jedi and did it himself. That is stretching his power too much. (See Palpatine is a Clawdite)

I do think Anakin is the best choice. Palpatine could have given him any number of reasons to do it. A few scenes in AOTC and even the "We'll watch your career with great interest" line in TPM shows that Palpatine has been bonding with Anakin since they first met. I do not think it would be too hard for Palpatine to manipulate Anakin into doing something like that.

In that case, Anakin might have been able to delete the information if he had been instructed on how to do it by Palpatine. This bonding issue between the both of them sounds like the catalyst for his turning against the other jedi and becoming Palpatine's right hand man.

well, palpatine had clouded pretty much the entire senate, and the jedi have known nothing of it.

Dooku: "What if i told you that the republic was now under the dark lord of the sith?"

Obi-Wan: "No, that's not possible. The Jedi would be aware of it."

Dooku: "The dark side of the force has clouded their vision, my friend. Hundreds of senators are now under the influence of a sith lord called Darth Sidious."

So, he could have clouded everyone's mind and deleted the records himself, and put in the order under a dead jedi's name, so the evidence wouldn't come back to him.

As much as I probably shouldn't compare the books to the movies, he did cloud like half the planed of Coruscant when the super star destroyer, Lukansia (sp?) was being built underneath it.

Interesting...didn't know this.

Sidious does not strike me as the type for direct action- too risky.

I agree, I go for the Dooku theory, or maybe the mysterious Sifo Dyas

I think Sifo Dyas too.

Sidious does like to let his apprentice do all the hard work while he sits back wearing his sith robes watching everything and everyone.

He has perfected the art of delegation.

Yes I would say he has. It's the same thing throughout the series-old and new.

it could well be an inside job, or it could be nothing more than something GL want's us to think hopelessly about, its all cool. me thinks it could be dark jedis at work

Aren't dark jedi the same as sith lords?

Somthing like that.. I think they were once jedi then seduced by the dark side..


EDIT: Typo.

I see.

Just like anikan while be seduced.

'Dark Jedi' isn't actually a phrase used in the films no it has no official meaning. I have always used it to refer to any one who was once a Jedi but who has fallen to the Dark Side.

'Sith' is an organisation. You are a Sith if you belong to it. The Sith are all Dark Siders but not all Dark Siders are Sith.

I think the term dark jedi is an EU invention Ush.

Very likely. It's actual meaning in the EU has always been rather fuzzy, though. They apply it to people that were never Jedi at all, implying that 'Jedi' means 'Force-user', which seems odd.

hm...

Then what do you call the light side jedi's? Republicans?

Well, they just call them Jedi.

But again, Jedi is an organisation. You are a Jedi if you belong to it. You could theoretically be on the Light Side and not be a Jedi. But as the Jedi are the only organisation in the Republic that actually trains people in the Light Side of the Force, the only way to do this is to be trained as a Jedi and then leave.

Like how Han Solo is on the light side , but hes not a jedi?

Well, people who don't actually 'have' the Force don't really have a side they are 'on', as such. Not in the same sense as Jedi. It's not about giving into your emotions or being at peace, or whatever. But Han is very definitely a good guy, and so if you talk about the Light Side representing good and the Dark Side evil then he is on the Light Side in a kind of metaphorical sense.

Yes I see what you mean. Like the word 'force-weilder' as opposed to actually being Jedi Knights.

Yes indeed.

hm...wish i had the force...

Yeah that would be cool, but also scary in the case of some people.

man, you know how lazy i'd become if i could use the force? i wouldn't even use remote controls anymore...too much effort on the fingers...

Or have to keep getting up to get something to drink.

I thought it was clear that Dooku did the erasing b/f he left...but hey you never know///

no we never do do we.

I don't know who erased Kamino archives, but we'll probally find out in episode III.

That should be something to look forward to- if we don't go crazy first!

GL wants us to think about htese things...its all a conspiricy...

The Big Suprise for Ep3 is that Mace erases Kamino from the archives. mark my words.. the dark side clouds everything.

aint no surprise there, Mace have been targeted as a traitor for quite some time

It would be the biggest (in a shocking way) revelation if it turns out Mace Windu has been doing stuff behind Yoda's back. I always got the impression they were best of friends and did not keep things from each other. Now I am not so sure.

biggest revelation would be that Yoda did it all, and I don't believe anything of that

I disagree with the premise, there seems no reason to involve Anakin at that point in time. I haven't seen ATOC since it was in the theatres but wasn't there a line where someone said only a Jedi Master had access to change the files? If that was the case, it seems it would need the personal involvement of Palpatine, but only after he became chancilor (unless he was using Sith power).

That said, I woudn't put it past Lucas to get boy Anakin involved where he doesn't belong. Too bad he wouldn't do something cool, like a renegade Slicer group in the employ of Sideous.

sorry scruffyD....

"Only a Jedi could have erased those files"

That's the quote I was thinking of... but doesn't that disqualify Anakin, since he wouldn't have been accepted as a Jedi at that point?

he's a Jedi Padawan, so he has access too, no?

as unlikely it seems, what if palpatine hired a renegade jedi slicer?

named Dooku?

Padawans are usually kept under close reigns by their Masters at the Temple. Anakin even more so. He is supposedly the Chosen One and they would be watching him closely because of this. So no I do not believe he is the one who erased the computer files. More likely the work of a jedi slicer(as suggested by my esteemed brother) or another such as Mace Windu or Count Dooku.

I think Palpatine did it.

.. That will bake your noodle.. LOL !!

Recommended reading, Cookies. Let us know your thoughts once you have read his thread.

esteemed brother? thanks GS!

and renegade jedi slicer named dooku?!

whoa! you just blew my mind, yerssot!

Yes you are now my brother Tevesh. We shall search the skies for our signs and grace the dawn with our strength.

don't forget picking up chicks too!

that thread is very interesting (especially when ush got upset), although i do agree that it would be very unlikely that palpatine would be able to play 3 to 4 individuals. this gets to me to thinking though,

how/where did palpatine get his training?

by his sith master

Of course.

Perhaps I can explain. The sith have been existing in secret for a thousand years following their alleged demise at the hands of the Jedi Knights. But only two existed at any given time-a master and his apprentice. Once the master died his student became the master and chose his own apprentice. This went on for a thousand years to the time of Darth Sidious, who was trained by his own master and then took Darth Maul as his sith apprentice.(Some of this might bgorder on EU so I aplogise if it strays abit outside the accepted lines)

that makes sense, but the jedi test infants at birth to see if they are gifted in the ways of the force, but how would the sith master know this to get his new apprentices?

nope, is canon appears in the novel of TPM

Actually, I doubt the Jedi do the testing, there are not enough of them. I aimagine it is standard medical procedure in the Republic to test infants.

As to how Palpatine was discovered in secret, that is a mystery but not actually essential to the plot.

it'd still be nice to know....

Of course! That migt be one of the mysteries of the century even though I seriously doubt that will have any mention in Episode III. There is way too much stuff to cover as it is!

too true

Well, I don't think the Republic does it all the time. Plus, I don't think they do the testing in the Outer Rim.

depends ...
tatooine wasn't in the republic or something?
QGJ said something about that while talking to Shmi about Anakins powers

Yeah he said if they were in the Republic then Anakin would have been identified early as a potential jedi.

so, doesn't matter where you life, as long as it's in the republic

Tatooine is TECHNICALLY in the Republic, hence Padme being surprised at the slavery, but to all intents and purposes it was not.

QGJ's absolute confidence that Anakin would have been detected quickly has always convinced me that medicial testing for infants is standard procedure throughout the Republic. A mere few thousand Jedi, busy with other duties, can not go around testing trillions of people.

my bad, retract previous post

To get slightly back on track: I agree that Anakin could not have deleted the files mentioned at the start of this thread. He would have had no oppurtunity open to him even if he was sent to do it by Chancellor Palpatine. I say it was most likely Count Dooku before leaving the Order.

but a bell should ring for ani when a SC asks him to delete Jedifiles!

One would think that, right! Scruffy doesn't think it was Ani either I believe. There might be a big suprise if it turnes out to be Mace Windu or some other 'good guy'. I will say for now it was probably the Count.

wise

Yeh I don't want a whole bunch of irate fans coming at me dressed like Windu or something!

what if there is no traitor?

Then that will be the biggest shocking twist of the current trilogy!

i'm sticking to my renegade slicer jedi theory. and if dooku is a slicer, then that's him all the way!

don't you know that palpatine is DARTH SIDIOUS

My vote goes to Sypho Dias(sp?) as the one who deleted the files to cover his tracks.

Its possible

I thought sypho dias was QGJ?

people have been speculating outside of the theaters that syfo dias could be qui gon jin. obiwan said that syfo dias died nearly ten years ago, around the time qui gon jin died. it could be syfo dias. it is my understanding that sw fans would be in for a shock in episode three.

they knew who Sifo Dyas was and he wasnt QGJ

Then who else died ten years ago besides QGJ and DM?

Sypho Dyas as OB1 said in AOTC

i suppose sidious could of used a mind trick on that weak minded librarian obi wan speaks to to get her to erase it.

i think that dooku erased them before he left the jedi order. after all, he knew that he would be behind the ordering of the clone army(using syfo dias's name) and he didnt want anyone to know the location of kamino.

perhaps you didn't notice... She's a jedi knight! you can't just erase her memory!

She was a jedi? I didnt even notice that.

very observant, i think it is Dooku b4 he left the order, Sifo Dyas is a strong contender i agree that 4 Sidious that would be 2 direct

yes, has a lightsabre and is said in thet novel, I think

Well, with ALMOST absolute certainty I think it was Dooku. I leave myself open to be surprised though in EPisode 3.

I highly disagree with the poster that said Sidious didn't plan the Clone Army that far in advance. First of all, Sidious/Palpatine, has had this planned for a long time and I think from the very beginning! Sids has plans from the beggining to be the Emperor, and he has it outlined in his head. He is patient and cunning! He knows he can't do it overnight, so he does it in steps, the first step was getting the Trade Fed to create a problem that would lead to a vote of no confidence to Chan. Valorum in the senate, once this happens he then can step in himself as Chan. after this he then leaves the Trade Fed to hang, as we found out in AOTC as to why Nute Gunray was unhappy! Now being Chancellor, he can start his second step to being empror, and thats creating in secret the CLoen Army, whiel it remains to be seen if he did the actaul ordering or had someone else do it, he was definitly behind it. If you look at the timeline of the movies and the dates that we are told in the movies, we know that the clone army was ordered almost immediatly after TPM, maybe een while it was going on! How do we knwo this? Well, we know that Sifo Dyas was killed approx ten years before the events of AOTC, and that AOTC took place 10 years after TPM, becasue in TPM Anakin was 9 and in AOTC he was approx 20. THen on top of that, there was a batch of Clonetroopers all ready for the republic to take control of and it took suprisingly 10 years to grom a batch of Clonetroopers! So with all that said, Palpatine/Sidious had to have this plan well in hand before the events of TPM, so that he could make sure it ran smoothly!

Palpatine is lucky that QGJ found anakin. It's almost like QGJ was in on it all too.

"Our meeting was not a coincidence. Nothing happens by accident." - Qui-Gon Jinn.

Do u think he was somewhat in on it all evil windu?

mace windu in on the order of the clone army? unlikely.

no, i was asking evil windu if he thought QGJ was in on it in some way.?

oh. my bad, cookies.

AND in ANH:
"In my experience there is no such thing as luck"
-OB1

(sorry, not following the discussion, just saw that quote )

yeah owell. ummm. So i think it was dooku.

yes. definitely dooku.

ok so most of us agree that dooku did it, right.

Uh I always believed that it was Dooku......I didn't think it was meant to be a tricky point....just a thing

Well, let me throw a curve ball at everyone here then! Like I said earlier, I had ALMOST complete certainty it was Dooku that did it. So with that said, if you look on the SW.com databanks for Dooku, it clearly says that Dooku didn't turn to the Darkside until AFTER he left the Jedi Order, that Sidious, hunted him down because he was a fallen Jedi basically. So, if Dooku had already left the Jedi Order, and he wasn't turned, he would have no reason to delete the Planet of Kamino or it's system. I would think that once a jedi leaves the order, he would not be allowed access to particular parts of archives, and or the temple. So I would think that Dooku would not be able to waltz back into the temple and erase the archives after he had left. So that's why I leave a little bit of room to surprise as to who erased the archives, seems on oe hand it makes sense if it was Dooku, but, there's enough evidence to suggest that he may not have had a chance to, and it was in fact someone else.

We'll then i guess my next target is palpatine. I now think that he did it.

Dooku did it...........only a jedi can lock into those archives and dooku used to be a jedi and erased the archives because jango worked for him.......and besides.if anakin did it jango would not have captured him

Yes, I agree it was Dooku. Yoda even said only a Jedi could erase those files, and Dooku was once a Jedi so It does make sense.

SMX

If Dooku didn't turn bad till after he left the Jedi, why delete the files before he left?

he could have been corrupted before he left

Exactly, great point.

SMX

therefor it's wrong

u ever think that sifo dyas is a some sort hidden message....i did for a second beacuse the last 2 words are anakins initials but the rest of the letters dont make sense so im probly wrong again

How, it makes sense, or am I interpreting it the wrong way? If Dooku was still a Jedi and was confronted by Nute like he says he was, he could have made Dooku corrupt making him erase those files so the clones would be hidden from the republic. Mace said Dooku was once a Jedi, but never said if he was a year ago or 20 years ago. It could be wrong though because there was some dialogue between Dooku and Obi-Wan when Obi is captured. I forgot what Dooku said about him learning the truth of the Sith and everything and when it happened. I'll have to put in my DVD and look at it tonight.

Maybe I'm not looking at this right? I'm confused I guess.

SMX

Oops, wrong button. Ignore this post.