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Kingdom come superman VS Angrir and Nul of the worthy.
The serpent tries to manifest into DC and sends Angrir and Nul to break Uts hero. They goto Metropolis and find KC Superman and attack.
Fight takes place in metropolis. No speed blitz if superman can even end this fight like that :3
Who wins?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/3/31666/800917-kc_superman_62.jpg
VS
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/57845/1894647-can_t_catch_up010.jpg

Probably team Worthy.

Team. Especially after his lack luster performance while on the JSA.

Tbf, any Herald level character should get crushed like 9/10 against an Elite Top Tier and an Above Top Tier. Thor's win was that very rare 1/10 occurence.

Still can't believe Thor was able to so easily kill Angrir, f*cking ridiculous. Imagine Superman casually punching Captain Marvel's head off. Surprised it doesn't get brought up more.

not all that surprising with angrir. he never would have made it to thor had sue not allowed him to live. i could think of ways kc superman could win this, but it would involve him probably acting out of character. his speed would still be an issue for them though. his performance in the jsa (minus the hercules feat) really wasn't all that impressive though. i always hated that. i'd been hoping to see some good stuff from him.

Originally posted by leonidas
not all that surprising with angrir. he never would have made it to thor had sue not allowed him to live. i could think of ways kc superman could win this, but it would involve him probably acting out of character. his speed would still be an issue for them though. his performance in the jsa (minus the hercules feat) really wasn't all that impressive though. i always hated that. i'd been hoping to see some good stuff from him.

It is to me. Don't usually see Mjolnir go through beings on Angrir's level so casually. Sure, with one of the more powerful hits it's doable but Fraction's Thor could pretty much casually decapitate someone like Hercules if he felt like it. He also easily tossed Mjolnir through Enchantress' new Skurge who was as strong as Thor now that I think about it. Then again, Fraction's Thor did fly through Galactus' head, dropped Odin and dented Surfer's skull with a headbutt, so in retrospect, it wasn't that out there.

How does that change anything? Sue's force fields are incredibly tough. Expanding them inside the lungs would kill even someone like Superman often.

Yeah, he was weaksauce, kind of disappointing.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Team. Especially after his lack luster performance while on the JSA.

Tbf, any Herald level character should get crushed like 9/10 against an Elite Top Tier and an Above Top Tier. Thor's win was that very rare 1/10 occurence.

Still can't believe Thor was able to so easily kill Angrir, f*cking ridiculous. Imagine Superman casually punching Captain Marvel's head off. Surprised it doesn't get brought up more.
Yeah it was pretty stooped. Lazy writing s'all.... I for one don't like bringing it up. Like you said, it's one of those 1/10 chances...

Seems alot think Angrir wouldn't be much trouble to Superman here by himself. He did beat the crap out of red hulk and destroy a crap load of landscape with his blasts opposed to the very little Nul did other than be the hulk with a hammer.

^ I don't. Angrir wasn't no Thor, but like you said he completely mopped the floor with Rulk. As for your observation concerning collateral damage, Nul wrecked Brazil and the Carpathian Mountains something fierce. Let's not shortchange Nul, since he did prove a tougher opponent than Angrir, after all. Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Team. Especially after his lack luster performance while on the JSA.

Tbf, any Herald level character should get crushed like 9/10 against an Elite Top Tier and an Above Top Tier. Thor's win was that very rare 1/10 occurence. Agreed. Originally posted by leonidas
not all that surprising with angrir. he never would have made it to thor had sue not allowed him to live. i could think of ways kc superman could win this, but it would involve him probably acting out of character. his speed would still be an issue for them though. his performance in the jsa (minus the hercules feat) really wasn't all that impressive though. i always hated that. i'd been hoping to see some good stuff from him. I wasn't surprised, but not for the same reason. Now while I don't expect Thor to blow right through Rulk's chest, let alone somebody who utterly mopped the floor with Rulk... the reason I wasn't surprised is because I know Thor can hit that hard if he had no other choice.

Fraction's Thor, while he left much to be desired in the character/dialogue aspect, was nothing short of ridiculous power wise. The crazy thing about a lot of his feats were that A.) he was injured or otherwise not at full capacity or B.) performed almost casually.

I always am shocked when people (most of which who gloss over Thor's ongoing under Fraction or exclusively read only event titles and the Avenger books) seriously claim that Thor got "nerfed". Under Fraction alone, he's killed two skyfathers and a being beyond that by my count.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus


How does that change anything? Sue's force fields are incredibly tough. Expanding them inside the lungs would kill even someone like Superman often.

i dunno, guess i always see that 'expanding force field' as a sort of 'forum power'. i like (liked) to think that someone on the level of the worthy could either resist it long enough to kill her, or would have some innate durability that would allow them to get through it. funny you brought up supes. with that angrir feat she could also kill thor....

Originally posted by ODG
I wasn't surprised, but not for the same reason. Now while I don't expect Thor to blow right through Rulk's chest, let alone somebody who utterly mopped the floor with Rulk... the reason I wasn't surprised is because I know Thor can hit that hard if he had no other choice.

i'd have little trouble processing the feat had he STRUCK angrir with the hammer, or showed evidence of nearly going all out or something. but the hammer was simply returning to his hand. killing a high herald by just calling mjolnir back to him? i dunno, seems to go against an awful lot of similar instances. it's like he commanded the hammer to return....more powerfully? or return in a lethal way that we've never seen before. just seemed strange to me.

Regular pre-DCNu Superman would beat these clowns. KC Superman should wipe the floor with them.

Originally posted by leonidas
i'd have little trouble processing the feat had he STRUCK angrir with the hammer, or showed evidence of nearly going all out or something. Thor did collapse in a heap at the end of the fight. Originally posted by leonidas
but the hammer was simply returning to his hand. killing a high herald by just calling mjolnir back to him? i dunno, seems to go against an awful lot of similar instances. it's like he commanded the hammer to return....more powerfully? or return in a lethal way that we've never seen before. just seemed strange to me. Thor can mentally command Mjolnir to soar with incredible force back to his grasp. It's outmuscled the Destroyer's grip, outmuscled Zeus' grip, forced Ulterminus into outer space careening into an asteroid, escaped event horizons, outraced Surfer, etc. Originally posted by zopzop
Regular pre-DCNu Superman would beat these clowns. KC Superman should wipe the floor with them. lawl

I'm with ODG on this.

I was surprised that Thor showcased that level of brutality albeit reluctantly on a friend and ally he knew was mind controlled, but considering how much Thor holds back and the higher scope of his capabilities, I wasn't that surprised.

And yeah...I don't see pre-Flashpoint Superman faring any better than Thor did. And given the fact that Green Scar Hulk alone would give Superman a fight and also was packing an Asgardian weapon, there's a case to be made that he'd potentially do worse than Thor did.

I'm curious what feats or stats make KC superman so much more than normal superman? (or did Pre-reboot)

Angrir alone could give Supes a fight...Nul would kill him.

Originally posted by carver9
Angrir alone could give Supes a fight...Nul would kill him.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Team. Especially after his lack luster performance while on the JSA. Not that I disagree with the outcome here(the team definitely stomps), but why would you call KC Superman's showings during JSA "lackluster"..?

His stint on JSA is what showed us that KC Supes>mainstream Supes, after all:
http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16146859_17.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16146861_18.jpg

Aside from that, he didn't have any real low feats at all.

I was about say the same thing Galan did, minus the scan (I'm lazy). What did he do in JSA that was unimpressive? KC could easily have been considered Trans., though lack of appearances hurts him there.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I'm with ODG on this.

I was surprised that Thor showcased that level of brutality albeit reluctantly on a friend and ally he knew was mind controlled, but considering how much Thor holds back and the higher scope of his capabilities, I wasn't that surprised.

And yeah...I don't see pre-Flashpoint Superman faring any better than Thor did. And given the fact that Green Scar Hulk alone would give Superman a fight and also was packing an Asgardian weapon, there's a case to be made that he'd potentially do worse than Thor did.
If we extrapolate Green Scar's feats with a hammer that is supposedly equal with Mjolnir, he would've cracked Thor's skull like an eggshell which he didn't. Its a different version of Hulk under a different writer. Instead of going that logic, use what Nul actually did on panel. I doubt Green Scar with an amp under Pak would get his flesh blasted off by Spider-woman. Are we going by ODG's version of superman who explodes by the mention of magic?Originally posted by carver9
Angrir alone could give Supes a fight...Nul would kill him.
Why? Angrir beat Rulk who under Parker got the shit beat out of him by anyone and everyone. Heck, class 85 Ikaris was taking it to him. Angrir would get a hole punched through him accidently. Nul would lose to superman too.

Originally posted by abhilegend
If we extrapolate Green Scar's feats with a hammer that is supposedly equal with Mjolnir, he would've cracked Thor's skull like an eggshell which he didn't. Its a different version of Hulk under a different writer. Instead of going that logic, use what Nul actually did on panel. I doubt Green Scar with an amp under Pak would get his flesh blasted off by Spider-woman. Are we going by ODG's version of superman who explodes by the mention of magic?
Why? Angrir beat Rulk who under Parker got the shit beat out of him by anyone and everyone. Heck, class 85 Ikaris was taking it to him. Angrir would get a hole punched through him accidently. Nul would lose to superman too.

Lol. Welcome back.

Nul was still a beast, even without extrapolating Green Scar's feats. It's pretty goddamn obvious he was otherwise beyond Thor, who was able to best him through a Hail Mary one shot BFR. And speaking of different writers, the guy who had Nul struggle with Spider-Woman wasn't the same guy who had Nul face off against Thor, for the record, so not sure why you'd bring up obvious PIS from Bendis of all people as a "counter point". Superman regularly is shown as being adverse to magic. Pretty sure ODG didn't mention Superman exploding or anything of that nature in this thread?

Originally posted by abhilegend
If we extrapolate Green Scar's feats with a hammer that is supposedly equal with Mjolnir, he would've cracked Thor's skull like an eggshell which he didn't. Its a different version of Hulk under a different writer. Instead of going that logic, use what Nul actually did on panel. I doubt Green Scar with an amp under Pak would get his flesh blasted off by Spider-woman.
I can see that.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Why? Angrir beat Rulk who under Parker got the shit beat out of him by anyone and everyone. Heck, class 85 Ikaris was taking it to him. Angrir would get a hole punched through him accidently. Nul would lose to superman too.
I thought Ikaris is now the Prime Eternal. Not surprised him working Rulk.

@ABHI...

Where did you come from? What in the hell.

^ The Phantom Zone.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I can see that.


I thought Ikaris is now the Prime Eternal. Not surprised him working Rulk.
Thank you.

He isn't prime eternal AFAIK. Even prime eternal Ikaris was manhandled by Hyperion.Originally posted by carver9
@ABHI...

Where did you come from? What in the hell.

Good to see you too carver.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Lol. Welcome back.

Nul was still a beast, even without extrapolating Green Scar's feats. It's pretty goddamn obvious he was otherwise beyond Thor, who was able to best him through a Hail Mary one shot BFR. And speaking of different writers, the guy who had Nul struggle with Spider-Woman wasn't the same guy who had Nul face off against Thor, for the record, so not sure why you'd bring up obvious PIS from Bendis of all people as a "counter point". Superman regularly is shown as being adverse to magic. Pretty sure ODG didn't mention Superman exploding or anything of that nature in this thread?
Thank you.

I don't disagree that Nul was a beast. I'm opposed to the logic that Nul can use Green Scar's feats while extrapolated by an asgardian hammer. That was just to give an example to see how different writers see hulk as a character.

I was mainly joking about how ODG's superman automatically loses against magical characters. Having a magical hammer doesn't mean that Superman would do worse than Thor especially when that hammer was just a club swung by Nul. If it was a magically charged hammer, you might have a case. Against magical blunt attacks superman's record is superb.

from that showing I felt angrir was weak in the durability dept. Any high herald level being would have been fine with that attack.

It's like he still had normal Thing level of durability.

Originally posted by h1a8
from that showing I felt angrir was weak in the durability dept. Any high herald level being would have been fine with that attack.

It's like he still had normal Thing level of durability.

Lawlz.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Lawlz. thats what i got after reading that scene.

Look at Thor's history and it's easy to come to that conclusion. he couldn't even do that to anyone else, including nul

Originally posted by h1a8
thats what i got after reading that scene.

Look at Thor's history and it's easy to come to that conclusion. he couldn't even do that to anyone else, including nul

Well, read it again.

How about you reflect on Thor's history so you can better understand how powerful Mjolnir can be.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Well, read it again.

How about you reflect on Thor's history so you can better understand how powerful Mjolnir can be.

Sure!
And according to Thor's history Mjolnir has never be shown powerful enough to go right through a high herald level being's chest with ease.

All high herald level beings (who have been struck) have taken hits from it without dying or even being koed.

Originally posted by h1a8
from that showing I felt angrir was weak in the durability dept. Any high herald level being would have been fine with that attack.

It's like he still had normal Thing level of durability. http://mob1102.photobucket.com/albums/g456/ChristopherEdge/FacepalmHulk_zps9c6b22e3.png

Originally posted by h1a8
Sure!
And according to Thor's history Mjolnir has never be shown powerful enough to go right through a high herald level being's chest with ease.

All high herald level beings (who have been struck) have taken hits from it without dying or even being koed.

Matt Fraction had Thor easily toss Mjolnir through the torso of the new Skurge who came off as his equal in strength. He flew through Galactus' head, the Demogorge's mouth, dented Surfer's skull with a freaking head butt.

Why do you think Mjolnir cutting through a High Herald with ease is improbable in light of all that? Not to mention we've seen it's return enchantment overpower Zeus, Destroyer, broken through space/time, and even worlds according to Thor.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
http://mob1102.photobucket.com/albums/g456/ChristopherEdge/FacepalmHulk_zps9c6b22e3.png Think and read before you post. I posted great reasoning behind that.

The same Thor didn't kill so many others (including Nul). Also going by Thor's history all high heralds can take a hit and still live (and actually still be conscious)

Originally posted by h1a8
Think and read before you post. I posted great reasoning behind that.

The same Thor didn't kill so many others (including Nul). Also going by Thor's history all high heralds can take a hit and still live (and actually still be conscious)

Why are you acting like Angrir can't take a hit or something? He bounced right back from a Mjolnir throw and wasn't even taken off his feet:
http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16161376_Fear_Itself_5_0005.jpg

How many Heralds do you know who can do that? Thor even called the two the Serpent's greatest Fear Mongers:
http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16161377_FI_04_0023.jpghttp://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16161378_FI_04_0024.jpg

Stop pretending Angrir was some scrub. Fraction can't write fights and is the most anti-climatic writer ever, but he's not shy when it comes to Thor's power levels.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Matt Fraction had Thor easily toss Mjolnir through the torso of the new Skurge who came off as his equal in strength. He flew through Galactus' head, the Demogorge's mouth, dented Surfer's skull with a freaking head butt.

Why do you think Mjolnir cutting through a High Herald with ease is improbable in light of all that? Not to mention we've seen it's return enchantment overpower Zeus, Destroyer, broken through space/time, and even worlds according to Thor.

I don't believe he flew through Galactus head. We have to agree to disagree there. But he did crack his helmet, which doesn't prove much since it doesn't strike me that Galactus helmet is close to adamantium level durability.

The mouth is a very vulnerable part of the body. Much more vulnerable than a chest (especially in comics). But still a good feat I suppose. What comic is this?

Denting Surfer's head doesn't prove much either. Didn't Fraction Mjolnir strike Surfer before without any denting?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Why are you acting like Angrir can't take a hit or something? He bounced right back from a Mjolnir throw and wasn't even taken off his feet:
http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16161376_Fear_Itself_5_0005.jpg

How many Heralds do you know who can do that? Thor even called the two the Serpent's greatest Fear Mongers:
http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16161377_FI_04_0023.jpghttp://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16161378_FI_04_0024.jpg

Stop pretending Angrir was some scrub. Fraction can't write fights and is the most anti-climatic writer ever, but he's not shy when it comes to Thor's power levels. Looks like a glancing blow but ok. You did see chips and pieces come off Angrir from that blow. He's more of a rock like creature and definitely less durabile than a top high herald level being. Those pieces remind me of the same durability as Thing himself.

Stop trying to sell the showing. It's funny when you do that.

How many heralds can do what?

Bringing fear =/= durability on the level of a high herald level being.
Bringing fear =/= more powerful

Kuurth was the most powerful but angrir probably brought more fear.
Angrir is a scrub when it comes to a high herald level being. I don't know of any high herald level beings he can beat for a majority.

Agreed that Thor was shown a little more powerful than average but going through a high herald level chest with ease. Naw! Otherwise it would be inconsistent with other showings.

Originally posted by h1a8
I don't believe he flew through Galactus head. We have to agree to disagree there. But he did crack his helmet, which doesn't prove much since it doesn't strike me that Galactus helmet is close to adamantium level durability.

The mouth is a very vulnerable part of the body. Much more vulnerable than a chest (especially in comics). But still a good feat I suppose. What comic is this?

Denting Surfer's head doesn't prove much either. Didn't Fraction Mjolnir strike Surfer before without any denting?

He flew into one end and came out the other. Did he go through his ears then iyo?

Mighty Thor #11. Demogorge was a Cosmic Entity beyond time/space, it could have been a fingernail, it would have been impressive. Not to mention Thor kills him by destroying his heart later on.

He dented the head of arguably the most invulnerable herald in comics. :/ He got knocked off his board by a Mjolnir throw.

Originally posted by h1a8
Looks like a glancing blow but ok. You did see chips and pieces come off Angrir from that blow. He's more of a rock like creature and definitely less durabile than a top high herald level being. Those pieces remind me of the same durability as Thing himself.

Haha, you're such a joke. The guy takes a Mjolnir throw from a pissed off Thor without falling and it proves he's less durable then other Heralds because his rocky hide was chipped?

Originally posted by h1a8
Stop trying to sell the showing. It's funny when you do that.

How many heralds can do what?

Bringing fear =/= durability on the level of a high herald level being.
Bringing fear =/= more powerful

Kuurth was the most powerful but angrir probably brought more fear.
Angrir is a scrub when it comes to a high herald level being. I don't know of any high herald level beings he can beat for a majority.

Take a hit like that almost without faltering.

It was clearly a comment on their power. Even though I don't believe Angrir is the most powerful I do think it's pretty clear that Fraction considered him to be very powerful.

He'd have probably beat the utter shit out of Surfer.

Originally posted by h1a8
Agreed that Thor was shown a little more powerful than average but going through a high herald level chest with ease. Naw! Otherwise it would be inconsistent with other showings.

A little more powerful then average? He took on a powered up Hulk and Thing while wounded after being blasted by a Skyfather. And won.

You mean comics aren't consistent and it's possible for a power house like Thor to have a high end showing that's above his average? GTFO, that's clearly impossible. Oh wait, it's not.

Also, why is it inconsistent? As we've seen, Mjolnir's return enchantment is connected to Thor's will and it's entirely plausible that it can cut through a High Herald. Mjolnir > Herald level beings. We've seen it overpower a full grown Terminus, Zeus's grip, the Destroyer's grip and even once carried it against the armor's will.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
He flew into one end and came out the other. Did he go through his ears then iyo? On this, I don't believe Thor flew through Galactus' head. Granted, another Herald has done so in the past, but it looked like Thor straight bounced off the right side of his head after the impact. Had he blown straight through, the left side of his head would have shown damage in later scenes. It didn't.

Originally posted by ODG
On this, I don't believe Thor flew through Galactus' head. Granted, another Herald has done so in the past, but it looked like Thor straight bounced off the right side of his head after the impact. Had he blown straight through, the left side of his head would have shown damage in later scenes. It didn't.

Hmm, here's the scene:
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16161597_07-27-2011_16.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16161598_07-27-2011_17.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16161599_07-27-2011_19.jpg

I guess I can see that but in the third page on the second panel, Thor seems to be on the other end of Galactus' head. Unless the panel is inverted like a mirror?

There does seem to be almost no damage on the right side. I'm conflicted.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Hmm, here's the scene:
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16161597_07-27-2011_16.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16161598_07-27-2011_17.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16161599_07-27-2011_19.jpg

I guess I can see that but in the third page on the second panel, Thor seems to be on the other end of Galactus' head. Unless the panel is inverted like a mirror?

There does seem to be almost no damage on the right side. I'm conflicted. Thor is reeling somewhere in undefined space. He could be anywhere. The next comic where Galactus re-engages his mental duel with Odin shows the left side of his helmet completely undamaged.

Originally posted by ODG
Thor is reeling somewhere in undefined space. He could be anywhere. The next comic where Galactus re-engages his mental duel with Odin shows the left side of his helmet completely undamaged.

But the purple glow is to his left, right where Galactus would be....

Like I said, I'm conflicted.

^ That glow is behind Thor from whatever camera angle that is.

And Thor ends up being around Galactus' waistline from what we see of the fourth panel. That costume pattern only shows up around his waist.

And Galactus' lefthand side of his helmet is completely undamaged when we next see it.

Originally posted by ODG
^ That glow is behind Thor from whatever camera angle that is.

And Thor ends up being around Galactus' waistline from what we see of the fourth panel. That costume pattern only shows up around his waist.

And Galactus' lefthand side of his helmet is completely undamaged when we next see it.

What do you mean behind him? His back and cape are facing us.

I'm confused, why does that matter? Thor was floating downward I agree as he was stunned.

Like I said, there seems to be practically no damage to his right side so I'm conflicted.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
What do you mean behind him? His back and cape are facing us.

I'm confused, why does that matter? Thor was floating downward I agree as he was stunned.

Like I said, there seems to be practically no damage to his right side so I'm conflicted. And the glow seems to be coming from the foreground, not the background. Which would put it behind Thor.

Because if he went straight through Galactus' head he should be floating downward after clearing Galactus. If he just bounced off his head straight down, he'd be floating down in front of his waistline.

Why would you be conflicted when you see damage on his right side and no damage on his left side. I think you're confusing yourself.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Haha, you're such a joke. The guy takes a Mjolnir throw from a pissed off Thor without falling and it proves he's less durable then other Heralds because his rocky hide was chipped?



Take a hit like that almost without faltering.

It was clearly a comment on their power. Even though I don't believe Angrir is the most powerful I do think it's pretty clear that Fraction considered him to be very powerful.

He'd have probably beat the utter shit out of Surfer.



A little more powerful then average? He took on a powered up Hulk and Thing while wounded after being blasted by a Skyfather. And won.

You mean comics aren't consistent and it's possible for a power house like Thor to have a high end showing that's above his average? GTFO, that's clearly impossible. Oh wait, it's not.

Also, why is it inconsistent? As we've seen, Mjolnir's return enchantment is connected to Thor's will and it's entirely plausible that it can cut through a High Herald. Mjolnir > Herald level beings. We've seen it overpower a full grown Terminus, Zeus's grip, the Destroyer's grip and even once carried it against the armor's will. The Rocky hide plopping off like that seems to me he has still has close to Thing's level of durability. It's not impossible in comics for someone to take a hit from Mjolnir without falling. Hell I don't agree with uppercutting Hulk with forces greater than his weight without lifting him and knocking him through the air, but it has happened.

Power =/= durability. IMO Thanos is much more durable than he is powerful (offensive wise). Angrir had the power to hurt but he had questionable durability. Even some great boxers have glass jaws.

A high showing for Thor? I agree!
But Angrir's less than stellar durability also played a role is all I'm saying. I wouldn't say he's as durable as Surfer or Superman or even Thor himself but closer to Thing's level (a little more though).

Originally posted by h1a8
The Rocky hide plopping off like that seems to me he has still has close to Thing's level of durability. It's not impossible in comics for someone to take a hit from Mjolnir without falling. Hell I don't agree with uppercutting Hulk with forces greater than his weight without lifting him and knocking him through the air, but it has happened.

Power =/= durability. IMO Thanos is much more durable than he is powerful (offensive wise). Angrir had the power to hurt but he had questionable durability. Even some great boxers have glass jaws.

A high showing for Thor? I agree!
But Angrir's less than stellar durability also played a role is all I'm saying. I wouldn't say he's as durable as Surfer or Superman or even Thor himself but closer to Thing's level (a little more though).

What? That's absolutely retarded logic, why does his hide being rocky mean he has similar levels of durability? Especially when in that scene he takes a hammer shot and only gets bent backwards a bit, something I don't think any Herald has ever accomplished so far. Not to mention we saw him fight Rulk, an elite strongman without any damage as well. Not impossible? Post a herald taking a similar shot, I'm trying to think of an instance and coming up with a hard time.

Because Thor tore Mjolnir through him, he has a glass jaw? Wtf? We've seen Mjolnir do serious damage from Heralds to Cosmics.

Lol, you seem to have a problem acknowledging Angrir's durability because of what this implies of Thor's capabilities. Get over it brah, Thor also tossed Mjolnir through the new Skurge, an even better feat. Fraction's Thor breaking through even Surfer with Mjolnir is hardly an impossibility.

Considering the shit Fraction had Thor doing, I'm not sure how Mjolnir cleaving through an amped Thing means Thing is weak or unimpressive more so than Thor just being WTF powerful and not giving two shits about phucking up a friend.

He also took all of Rulk's blows in stride, who's at least as strong as someone like Hercules. Spider-Man broke his hand punching him and it took one of his all-out blitz mode attacks just to barely hurt Angrir. That's his lowest showing, Spider-Man on an adrenaline rush making him feel an attack. Not to mention there was the usual comic crap of Spider-Man getting through to the Ben Grimm inside.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
What? That's absolutely retarded logic, why does his hide being rocky mean he has similar levels of durability? Especially when in that scene he takes a hammer shot and only gets bent backwards a bit, something I don't think any Herald has ever accomplished so far. Not to mention we saw him fight Rulk, an elite strongman without any damage as well. Not impossible? Post a herald taking a similar shot, I'm trying to think of an instance and coming up with a hard time.

Because Thor tore Mjolnir through him, he has a glass jaw? Wtf? We've seen Mjolnir do serious damage from Heralds to Cosmics.

Lol, you seem to have a problem acknowledging Angrir's durability because of what this implies of Thor's capabilities. Get over it brah, Thor also tossed Mjolnir through the new Skurge, an even better feat. Fraction's Thor breaking through even Surfer with Mjolnir is hardly an impossibility. That's crazy. I don't care about Thor being shown to be powerful as long as it is consistent with the whole story.

The way it chips off shows the consistency to that of Thing. I will go as far and say Angrir was a little more durable but still on the consistency of Thing himself. I'm going by what I feel when I read through the fight. In all honesty I don't see Mjolnir going through Thor, Surfer, Hulk, or Superman's chest. You can ask any non bias member here and they will tell you the same. Angrir is just not as durable as other high herald level beings.

To support Angrir having top high herald level durability then you must provide consistent feats for him. Him not being entirely knocked down is meaningless since that has nothing to do with durability. He was damaged from the strike and was knocked back. I seen beings knocked down without being damaged in comics. It can also be argued to be a glancing blow (not full on impact) but I won't argue that.

Thor going through Surfer is definitely not a possibility without it being totally PIS and horrific writing. That's just not going to happen, not even by Fraction. Stop giving him that much credit.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
He also took all of Rulk's blows in stride, who's at least as strong as someone like Hercules. Spider-Man broke his hand punching him and it took one of his all-out blitz mode attacks just to barely hurt Angrir. That's his lowest showing, Spider-Man on an adrenaline rush making him feel an attack. Not to mention there was the usual comic crap of Spider-Man getting through to the Ben Grimm inside.

Rulk is all over the place but he can be as strong as say Hercules. Also Rulk doesn't hit as hard as Mjolnir on his average.


Spider-man has hurt plenty of characters outside his tier and also fail to as well. He is also inconsistent as well. Using him isn't a good choice.

Originally posted by h1a8
That's crazy. I don't care about Thor being shown to be powerful as long as it is consistent with the whole story.

What are you talking about? You acknowledge comics are inconsistent then come up with contrived reasoning because Thor's feat is inconsistent with his average? Make up your mind.

Originally posted by h1a8
The way it chips off shows the consistency to that of Thing. I will go as far and say Angrir was a little more durable but still on the consistency of Thing himself. I'm going by what I feel when I read through the fight. In all honesty I don't see Mjolnir going through Thor, Surfer, Hulk, or Superman's chest. You can ask any non bias member here and they will tell you the same. Angrir is just not as durable as other high herald level beings.

Are you mad? Angrir took a Mjolnir shot and got his head knocked back, he's definitely High Herald in durability. Why does his rock like consistency indicate similar durability when we saw that he was very much more durable? I should just get a mod ruling and be done with it.

Why not?

Get over it. Thor can one shot kill Heralds under extremes, it's nothing new. Go back a few decades and he did the same to Air-Walker when he didn't have to hold back:
http://s989.photobucket.com/user/RageOfOlympus/media/Thor/ThorvsAirWalker6.jpg.html

We've seen Mjolnir wreck beings like Surtur:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16039386/Avengers_Origins_-_Thor_024.jpg.html
http://s779.photobucket.com/user/R-O-G/media/Thor/ThrowHurtsSurtur1.jpg.html
http://imageshack.us/a/img585/2818/bsyc.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img593/9012/uhrn.jpg

He threw it through Skurge's chest who was crazy strong under Fraction:
http://imageshack.us/a/img402/9843/25rr.jpg

And not too long before that, he one shot killed an amped up Ulik two who was powerful enough to replicate all of Thor's history (So definitely High Herald too):
http://imageshack.us/a/img545/5601/ov8b.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img442/1673/kjc6.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img818/2016/jy3o.jpg

Originally posted by h1a8
To support Angrir having top high herald level durability then you must provide consistent feats for him. Him not being entirely knocked down is meaningless since that has nothing to do with durability. He was damaged from the strike and was knocked back. I seen beings knocked down without being damaged in comics. It can also be argued to be a glancing blow (not full on impact) but I won't argue that.

Thor going through Surfer is definitely not a possibility without it being totally PIS and horrific writing. That's just not going to happen, not even by Fraction. Stop giving him that much credit.

He's had three fights you psycho and each fight you want to ignore his durability feats for some contrived reason. Being able to tank a blow has nothing to do with durability? Any more blatant trolling like that and I'll get Carver to break your legs.

It can most definitely happen. It might not be likely but stop pretending it's impossible. A while back, the thought of denting Surfer's head with his skull would have been thought impossible, it's comics, shit happens, get over it.

Originally posted by h1a8
Rulk is all over the place but he can be as strong as say Hercules. Also Rulk doesn't hit as hard as Mjolnir on his average.


Spider-man has hurt plenty of characters outside his tier and also fail to as well. He is also inconsistent as well. Using him isn't a good choice.

We saw Rulk's performance under Bendis and he was at least Hercules level. At his debut, he even commented that he was tougher then the Green Hulk. He was jobbed out to Simon at the end there when he was going all Sentry but that's it. On the other hand we have his performance during the Infinity Gems and against the Phoenix Five under Bendis.

So we're just going to conveniently ignore every durability showing Angrir has just because?

http://imageshack.us/a/img7/9034/dqko.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img526/9994/fthx.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img59/6932/g9n7.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img6/2895/shrg.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img19/3084/t210.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img546/2636/0iz2.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img46/9065/6by1.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img521/573/yalv.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img850/7467/krf3.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img404/5342/83ia.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img402/6365/mv8e.jpg

Look at that shitty durability. Clearly he's only Thing level durability because of his rocky hide.

.

This back and forth seems odd. Even if Angrir was the weakest of the worthy his durability was still much more than Thing. Would this even be a issue if he was flesh? If he was flesh and had maybe a small trail of blood (instead of hide Chips) coming from his face from a Thor hammer Throw then next panel wasn't bloodied or overall effected beyond that one happening would it still be such a issue? It's not like anyone claimed he had the same durability or strength as Nul.

Originally posted by SevenShackles
This back and forth seems odd. Even if Angrir was the weakest of the worthy his durability was still much more than Thing. Would this even be a issue if he was flesh? If he was flesh and had maybe a small trail of blood (instead of hide Chips) coming from his face from a Thor hammer Throw then next panel wasn't bloodied or overall effected beyond that one happening would it still be such a issue? It's not like anyone claimed he had the same durability or strength as Nul.

H1 believes Angrir is only slightly more durable then regular Thing because he still has a rocky hide. And I'm not joking. He's either trolling or brain damaged.

It's pretty obvious however that the only reason he wants to lowball Angrir's durability is because Thor cutting through him so easily is ridiculous.

Angrir's lowest feat is all-out Spider-Man on an adrenaline rush causing him to grunt after a barrage of blows. So it's not like he can even use conflicting evidence, he just ignores shit.

This would be a ridiculous feat (and it still kinda is) for Thor if the guy who was handling his ongoing at the time - who also wrote Fear Itself - didn't have him be portrayed as a psychopath with no phucks to give. There's also his prior history which has Mjolnir's power being able to damage beings far and away above his own tier.

That doesn't make Angrir "weak" or have shitty durability.

Anyway, duo 9/10.

you think it's that lop-sided? not sure i'd say it was that skewed, but kc supes didn't show too much, unfortunately. i think initially that superman/herc confrontation was intended to show just how far above our kal kc supes was supposed to be though. i wonder if this were changed to oww superman if people would think he had a better chance.

Originally posted by leonidas
you think it's that lop-sided? not sure i'd say it was that skewed, but kc supes didn't show too much, unfortunately. i think initially that superman/herc confrontation was intended to show just how far above our kal kc supes was supposed to be though. i wonder if this were changed to oww superman if people would think he had a better chance.

O.k. A second round with oww version of superman VS team if you think that will be a more interesting match. I'm not familure with this version of superman but that makes the thread all the more interesting for me :3

Originally posted by leonidas
you think it's that lop-sided? not sure i'd say it was that skewed, but kc supes didn't show too much, unfortunately. i think initially that superman/herc confrontation was intended to show just how far above our kal kc supes was supposed to be though. i wonder if this were changed to oww superman if people would think he had a better chance. It was almost that lopsided with Thor. Sure, he managed to kill Angrir, but before that he was getting wrecked and he collapsed in a heap after BFRing Nul.

KC Superman's stated/shown superiority over Superman is probably definitely less than WWH's stated/shown superiority over Savage Hulk. And I don't recall KC Superman increasing his resistance to magic the same way he did with kryptonite.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
We saw Rulk's performance under Bendis and he was at least Hercules level. At his debut, he even commented that he was tougher then the Green Hulk. He was jobbed out to Simon at the end there when he was going all Sentry but that's it. On the other hand we have his performance during the Infinity Gems and against the Phoenix Five under Bendis.

So we're just going to conveniently ignore every durability showing Angrir has just because?

http://imageshack.us/a/img7/9034/dqko.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img526/9994/fthx.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img59/6932/g9n7.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img6/2895/shrg.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img19/3084/t210.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img546/2636/0iz2.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img46/9065/6by1.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img521/573/yalv.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img850/7467/krf3.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img404/5342/83ia.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img402/6365/mv8e.jpg

Look at that shitty durability. Clearly he's only Thing level durability because of his rocky hide.

Why do you quote me out of context? I said a little above Thing level durability.
Thing can also take punches from Hulk as well. Again Rulk is all over the place and very inconsistent.

To prevent creating a strawman I claim that Angrir doesn't have high herald level durability. Do you agree?

Originally posted by h1a8
Why do you quote me out of context? I said a little above Thing level durability.
Thing can also take punches from Hulk as well. Again Rulk is all over the place and very inconsistent.

To prevent creating a strawman I claim that Angrir doesn't have high herald level durability. Do you agree?

If it's not high herald durability then could you clarify and give a Tier you think his durability would rank as?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
H1 believes Angrir is only slightly more durable then regular Thing because he still has a rocky hide. And I'm not joking. He's either trolling or brain damaged.

It's pretty obvious however that the only reason he wants to lowball Angrir's durability is because Thor cutting through him so easily is ridiculous.

Angrir's lowest feat is all-out Spider-Man on an adrenaline rush causing him to grunt after a barrage of blows. So it's not like he can even use conflicting evidence, he just ignores shit.

The rocky hide is evidence but not sufficient proof
The rocky hide chipping off like it did is good evidence and almost proof enough (Thing himself would have experience the same shit in another comic)
Thor going through Angrir and not other high herald level beings proves it.

My point is that Angrir's durability is not on the level of a high herald level being.
Let's just his durability is somewhere between Thing's and a high herald level beings.

Question: Do you think Mjolnir could have gone through Thor's chest as well?

Originally posted by Emi~Kiro
If it's not high herald durability then could you clarify and give a Tier you think his durability would rank as?

I would say halfway between Thing's and high herald durability.
So more than Thing's but less than Thor's, Surfer's, Superman's, etc.


I think Thing himself could have taken some blows without dying immediately tbh.

Originally posted by h1a8
Why do you quote me out of context? I said a little above Thing level durability.
Thing can also take punches from Hulk as well. Again Rulk is all over the place and very inconsistent.

To prevent creating a strawman I claim that Angrir doesn't have high herald level durability. Do you agree?

How did I quote you out of context when it's your whole post?

Then Thing is High Herald level in durability in your book? Because taking that kind of beating without even worse for the wear is ridiculous, average Thor couldn't match it based on how strong Bendis wrote Rulk even up until AvX. We know where he considered Rulk, he made that clear when he introduced him into the team.

No, I don't.

Originally posted by h1a8
The rocky hide is evidence but not sufficient proof
The rocky hide chipping off like it did is good evidence and almost proof enough (Thing himself would have experience the same shit in another comic)
Thor going through Angrir and not other high herald level beings proves it.

My point is that Angrir's durability is not on the level of a high herald level being.
Let's just his durability is somewhere between Thing's and a high herald level beings.

Question: Do you think Mjolnir could have gone through Thor's chest as well?

No it's not evidence. Characters come in all textures and sizes in comics, it has no bearing on their durability unless they're made out of glass or something.

What are you talking about? He got hit and didn't even get taken off his feet. He took that better than most would.

I just posted conclusive evidence that going through a Herald with Mjolnir is very much in line with Thor's power at his high end. Why are you ignoring this evidence?

Depends entirely on how Fraction views Thor, but it's not out of the question. Thor's always been able to hit out of his tier.

Originally posted by h1a8
I would say halfway between Thing's and high herald durability.
So more than Thing's but less than Thor's, Surfer's, Superman's, etc.


I think Thing himself could have taken some blows without dying immediately tbh.



Fraction Thor would do this to Thing except way worse:
http://s989.photobucket.com/user/RageOfOlympus/media/Thor/KillsThing.jpg.html
http://s989.photobucket.com/user/RageOfOlympus/media/Thor/KillsThing2.jpg.html

The more you talk, the more it's obvious you never bothered to read his run.

Lol...that's why I say "I don't see why people bother to debate with H1".

Nul and Angrir break KC Superman. I'd give Superman maybe one win just because. Also is KC Superman just as weak to magically charged attacks? I don't remember if he showed any sort of resistance in his captain marvel fight other incarnations haven't.. Then again him being 'weak' to magic is just him being as vulnerable to it as any random Joe despite his super stats, so eh.

Angrir would be a nuisance ontop of KC Clark taking hits and hounding him hitting/blasting back and Nul would drive the win home with brute force. Even if KC superman took down Angrir (which given Thors power levels and seriousness at that point in fear itself I wouldn't really say Angrir had crap durability) he isn't putting down Nul after whatever beating he would have to sustain to accomplish taking Angrir down.

^ From what I remember of Kingdom Come (don't feel like grabbing it off my shelf right now), he still had issues with magic, e.g., cutting himself on Wonder Woman's blade, being wrecked by Captain Marvel's lightning, etc.

I don't recall him gaining any increased resistance to his magic weakness in The Kingdom or his stint with the JSA,

Originally posted by ODG
^ From what I remember of Kingdom Come (don't feel like grabbing it off my shelf right now), he still had issues with magic, e.g., cutting himself on Wonder Woman's blade, being wrecked by Captain Marvel's lightning, etc.

I don't recall him gaining any increased resistance to his magic weakness in The Kingdom or his stint with the JSA,

Oh thanks for the info

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus


Fraction Thor would do this to Thing except way worse:
http://s989.photobucket.com/user/RageOfOlympus/media/Thor/KillsThing.jpg.html
http://s989.photobucket.com/user/RageOfOlympus/media/Thor/KillsThing2.jpg.html

The more you talk, the more it's obvious you never bothered to read his run.

Yet Thing has taken hits just as powerful without being visibly damaged.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
How did I quote you out of context when it's your whole post?

Then Thing is High Herald level in durability in your book? Because taking that kind of beating without even worse for the wear is ridiculous, average Thor couldn't match it based on how strong Bendis wrote Rulk even up until AvX. We know where he considered Rulk, he made that clear when he introduced him into the team.

No, I don't.



No it's not evidence. Characters come in all textures and sizes in comics, it has no bearing on their durability unless they're made out of glass or something.

What are you talking about? He got hit and didn't even get taken off his feet. He took that better than most would.

I just posted conclusive evidence that going through a Herald with Mjolnir is very much in line with Thor's power at his high end. Why are you ignoring this evidence?

Depends entirely on how Fraction views Thor, but it's not out of the question. Thor's always been able to hit out of his tier.

Many characters under high herald level have taken hits from high herald level beings. Spidey, Wolverine, CA, Beast, etc. So yes Thing has taken hits from Hulk, Gladiator, Thanos, etc. and keep on ticking.

IMO, Bendis didn't make Rulk that powerful. Loeb was the one who did that.

So you believe Angrir had the durability of Surfer, Thor, Superman, etc.
Thus you believe the hammer would have went through Thor's or Surfer's chest as well. Right? Don't avoid that question.

It's evidence because Angrir is based off Thing. It makes 100% for them to be made of the same substance but only amped. This is not some new character that isn't based off any other being. So your glass rebuttal fails.

Not being taken off one's feet is not evidence towards anything unless it was a no sell hit. If Hulk doesn't get taken off his feet from a class 100 uppercut (Hulk weighs less than a ton) then should we assume the punch was less than class 100? And you are not considering it being a possible glancing blow.

Lastly, what is the difference between that hit vs. the one that went through Angrir?

So can BA punch through CM's chest or head at his high end then? Will you ever see that in comics? Thor is not going to send Mjolnir through any high herald level being's CHEST at his high end.

IMO, I don't think Thor can hit out of his tier if you consider other high end feats by other high herald level beings (including their durability feats). If that is the case then most can hit out of their tier (whatever that means).

Originally posted by h1a8
Yet Thing has taken hits just as powerful without being visibly damaged.



Many characters under high herald level have taken hits from high herald level beings. Spidey, Wolverine, CA, Beast, etc. So yes Thing has taken hits from Hulk, Gladiator, Thanos, etc. and keep on ticking.


Are you under the impression that all high heralds strike with th full extent of thier powers and treat all threats as if they are peers?



the difference between an attack and a killing blow. 'and him I liked' or something to that effect was said after the kill blow which would indicate it was done intentionally meaning he applied the necessary force to his hammer When he called it back so it would go threw him opposed to the other hammer throw that clipped Angrir like a punch instead of just taking his head off.

KC superman punched Gog's magical lightning back on him. If that's not resistance to magic, I don't know what is.

Originally posted by abhilegend
KC superman punched Gog's magical lightning back on him. If that's not resistance to magic, I don't know what is.
detective odd how that's overlooked/forgotten even when a pic of it is nicely framed in the OP lol