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i really dont know who would win here, gohan?

It depends entirely on when you're talking about. End of Cell Saga or Buu Saga after Gohan gets his mystic upgrade, Gohan. Otherwise, Goku.

Gohan is a *****.

Goku all the way.

Gohan has never pulled the 'I want him to get stronger!' thing on a major villain, which gets him props in my book.

end of buu saga is what i was talking about

Then it's easily Gohan unless you count this new movie where Goku fights the rabbit

Gohan is the strongest not fused (or absorbed) character in DBZ.

Goku tells Gohan to **** off.

Gohan proceeds to **** off and forfeit the match.

Goku: give me your energy, son!
Gohan: but dad, were in a match.
Goku: never mine that, give me your energy Gohan!
Gohan: yes, dad...

Gohan fainted! Goku wins!

Originally posted by vansonbee
Goku: give me your energy, son!
Gohan: but dad, were in a match.
Goku: never mine that, give me your energy Gohan!
Gohan: yes, dad...

Gohan fainted! Goku wins!

Originally posted by vansonbee
Goku: give me your energy, son!
Gohan: but dad, were in a match.
Goku: never mine that, give me your energy Gohan!
Gohan: yes, dad...

Gohan fainted! Goku wins! hahahaha

Counting the movie, Gohan would definitely need to find more hidden power.

well, Gohan by the end of DBZ at his mystic levels was > SSJ3 Goku no doubt about it.


Goku's cooler though

And a better fighter.

TBH I don't see Gohan being that much stronger. Problem is the stamina. Give Goku mystic like stamina and Gohan is in for the fight of his life.

End of Z Gohan beats end of Z Goku.

Goku all day long

Originally posted by Zack Fair
And a better fighter.

TBH I don't see Gohan being that much stronger. Problem is the stamina. Give Goku mystic like stamina and Gohan is in for the fight of his life.

Yeah that too. If it came down to martial arts skill Goku takes the can out on Gohan.

The reason I think Gohan is noticeably stronger is because this is more or less how the power levels were in the buu saga to me:

Majin Vegeta<= Fat Buu < Ssj3 Goku <= Kid Buu < Super Buu << Mystic Gohan

At least that's how I see it /shrug

Mystic Gohan amps over time right? Can't turn super saiyan but has his potential unlocked. I think he can take end of buu saga goku.

Originally posted by SevenShackles
Mystic Gohan amps over time right? Can't turn super saiyan but has his potential unlocked. I think he can take end of buu saga goku.

I don't think he amps. I think he's just at his limit. He can't get any stronger because all his power is unlocked. Goku on the other hand has to hit SSJ3 for his power to be a max which still is inferior to Gohan's

Originally posted by juggerman
Then it's easily Gohan unless you count this new movie where Goku fights the rabbit You have to count the battle of gods movie its cannon, what lame dbz fans and its the god of destruction duhhh

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
You have to count the battle of gods movie its cannon, what lame dbz fans and its the god of destruction duhhh

LOL i haven't seen it yet but i've heard quite a bit about it. But OP states this fight takes place at "End of Buu Saga" which means before this new movie. So Gohan wins

I cant belive that M Gohan is much stronger than ssj 3 goku and now we have to think about the new level goku has reached ssj god witch is the most powerful transformation in any universe in the anime world!

and it is official cannon and right I mean right after buu

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
I cant belive that M Gohan is much stronger than ssj 3 goku and now we have to think about the new level goku has reached ssj god witch is the most powerful transformation in any universe in the anime world!

He's vastly stronger than SSJ3 Goku. It was stated that SSJ1 Gotenks was equal in power to SSJ3 Goku. So SSJ3 Gotenks would be>>>>>>>>>>>> than SSJ3 Goku right? Then Super Buu was superior to SSJ3 Gotenks so Super Buu would then be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ3 Goku. And finally we have Mystic Gohan utter stomp the shit out of Super Buu effortlessly.

So it goes like this:
Gohan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Super Buu>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ3 Gotenks>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ1 Gotenks=SSJ3 Goku.

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
and it is official cannon and right I mean right after buu

It's still after the Buu Saga. This is "end of Buu Saga" not after

Right on, I need to freshin up on my dbz power levels lol its been a while I guess

i mean for the sake of the fight lets include the movie, but what would it take for gohan to bring that out of his father, who LOVES him. i mean goku's ass was beat plenty of times before he unlocked/ used it, how can gohan bring that out?

Originally posted by Luffygear4
i mean for the sake of the fight lets include the movie, but what would it take for gohan to bring that out of his father, who LOVES him. i mean goku's ass was beat plenty of times before he unlocked/ used it, how can gohan bring that out?

If he can achieve such a level then i'm sure he wouldn't need to use all of it to beat Gohan. Plus if you add the movie Gohan's boost is all but ignored

Originally posted by juggerman
If he can achieve such a level then i'm sure he wouldn't need to use all of it to beat Gohan. Plus if you add the movie Gohan's boost is all but ignored Truu but I haven't even seen the movie yet been trying to find it online but a lot of spam can anyone help or do we just have to wait?

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
I cant belive that M Gohan is much stronger than ssj 3 goku and now we have to think about the new level goku has reached ssj god witch is the most powerful transformation in any universe in the anime world! Sure its more powerful than Z versions....but stronger than GT remains to be seen and more powerful than the anime multiverse? LOL no.

Originally posted by juggerman
He's vastly stronger than SSJ3 Goku. It was stated that SSJ1 Gotenks was equal in power to SSJ3 Goku. So SSJ3 Gotenks would be>>>>>>>>>>>> than SSJ3 Goku right? Then Super Buu was superior to SSJ3 Gotenks so Super Buu would then be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ3 Goku. And finally we have Mystic Gohan utter stomp the shit out of Super Buu effortlessly.

So it goes like this:
Gohan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Super Buu>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ3 Gotenks>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ1 Gotenks=SSJ3 Goku.

Eh, Super Buu was equal to or even slightly inferior to SSJ3 Gotenks. The only reason Gotenks lost was due to the time limit on the fusion. Still, you're right Gohan was vastly superior to Gotenks and Super Buu and therefore, way beyond SSJ3 Goku.

Originally posted by ares834
Eh, Super Buu was equal to or even slightly inferior to SSJ3 Gotenks. The only reason Gotenks lost was due to the time limit on the fusion. Still, you're right Gohan was vastly superior to Gotenks and Super Buu and therefore, way beyond SSJ3 Goku.

Actually Buu was quite a bit superior to Gotenks. He was basically toying with him the entire fight and allowed him to get the upperhand at the end. He admits this because he felt Gohan's power from across the universe rising and eclipsing his. He wanted to be the strongest so he let the fight drag on with Gotenks until the fusion wore out then he allowed them to fuse again so he could absorb them and once again be the strongest.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Sure its more powerful than Z versions....but stronger than GT remains to be seen and more powerful than the anime multiverse? LOL no. Dbz is the most powerful anime in the universe, fact..... I don't belive any anime hero could fight or win against the god of destruction... no one form one piece beach hellsing or any other anime could beat goku ever

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
Dbz is the most powerful anime in the universe, fact..... I don't belive any anime hero could fight or win against the god of destruction... no one form one piece beach hellsing or any other anime could beat goku ever

Actually, this is false.

There are several anime out there that outshines Dragon Ball in terms of sheer overpoweredness.

Check Tenchi, or even Guran Laagan... Shit is over the top.

Goku can travel to any vers if he wanted to. he would just have to pic it in his head and inst trans to it and **** up everyone he movies fast than any other anime character can hands down I want to see who you would belive to be stronger than dbz? they probably couldn't even survive 300x gravity haha

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
Goku can travel to any vers if he wanted to. he would just have to pic it in his head and inst trans to it and **** up everyone he movies fast than any other anime character can hands down I want to see who you would belive to be stronger than dbz? they probably couldn't even survive 300x gravity haha

You don't even know the animes I'm referring to, so that is a pointless thing to say.

No, IT cannot transport him outside of his own universe, that never happened. And HELL no, he is far from the fastest. Only IT is light speed itself, but he can't physically move at that speed himself.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You don't even know the animes I'm referring to, so that is a pointless thing to say.

No, IT cannot transport him outside of his own universe, that never happened. And HELL no, he is far from the fastest. Only IT is light speed itself, but he can't physically move at that speed himself.

I think IT is faster that Lightspeed. He used it to move Cell off Earth before he kersploded. That's el fasto

Originally posted by juggerman
I think IT is faster that Lightspeed. He used it to move Cell off Earth before he kersploded. That's el fasto

Yes, what I'm saying is that it's not inter-universal breaking as claimed, nor can he actually utilise IT as actual combat speed. it's basically teleportation.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Yes, what I'm saying is that it's not inter-universal breaking as claimed, nor can he actually utilise IT as actual combat speed. it's basically teleportation. How are you going to say you know it isn't? you have know proof that it isn't and I asked what anime are you referring to then? Just because it hasn't happened does not mean he cant, he has had no reason to do so and he hast to travel faster than light speed if he can instantly transmit himself acrossed a universe, that just goes to show that you know nothing of light speed or how the fundamentals of the universe work! wich would mean his body is traveling that fast so?

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
How are you going to say you know it isn't? you have know proof that it isn't and I asked what anime are you referring to then? Just because it hasn't happened does not mean he cant, he has had no reason to do so and he hast to travel faster than light speed if he can instantly transmit himself acrossed a universe, that just goes to show that you know nothing of light speed or how the fundamentals of the universe work! wich would mean his body is traveling that fast so?

There is no indicationg that it can either.

Originally posted by juggerman
There is no indicationg that it can either. Very true but if something hasn't been proven to be impossible then it is still a possibility! just a hipothos, But fact is he can move much fast than light probably even fast than dark matter

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
Very true but if something hasn't been proven to be impossible then it is still a possibility! just a hipothos, But fact is he can move much fast than light probably even fast than dark matter

Not really how it works. There has to be some evidence that it would be possible. And he doesn't really travel that distance. As Darkstorm said he is teleporting.

That is still traveling

His body still going from one place to the other and know it aint he never says instant teleportation instant transmission! Here is the deff is a technique for traveling long distances instantly

Get your facts right. Instead, Goku simply demonstrated its ability to the fellow Z Fighters after his return by warping to Kame House and stealing Master Roshi's sunglasses in under a few seconds. Throughout the rest of the series, Goku uses the technique often to travel around the universe. Goku can even shift through realms, having no problem teleporting from Earth to King Kai's planet, and from there to New Namek. In the FUNimation Dub, Goku describes the technique as allowing him to move at the speed of light (specifically 186,282.397 miles per second), Goku uses two of his popular attacks with this technique, such as Instant Kamehameha and Instant Spirit Bomb.

Fact from DragonBall Wiki!! It is revealed in the movie Dragon Ball Z: The Return of Cooler, that this move briefly moves the user into a pocket dimension which then allows them to move to any location instantly. However, the user cannot travel to an area they have never been to unless they can detect someone familiar to them to use as a homing beacon. hahahahah whats up nowwwwwww boyyyyy

I meant it's not him actually moving thru the space between where he started and where he ended up. Also wiki is not the most accurate source of information.

Originally posted by juggerman
I meant it's not him actually moving thru the space between where he started and where he ended up. Also wiki is not the most accurate source of information. That's not what everyone els has said and it stated that yes it is actually him moving threw the space.

It allows the USER to MOVE to any location,

◾Kami, Mr. Popo, Fortuneteller Baba, Tsururin Tsun, Kibito and later Kibito Kai also know a variation of the technique called Instantaneous Movement. This technique does not require an energy signature to home in on and does not use the typical Goku gesture. but its good enough for me I seen comments about it they say its good the name differs from dub and not dub is all

It's a different technique so is not appilicable

It is not different or well the only diff is that they do not have to sense ki! other than that it is the same idea

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
Dbz is the most powerful anime in the universe, fact..... I don't belive any anime hero could fight or win against the god of destruction... http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y508/YamchaKMC/fed7eb41-820e-4842-a2a9-5ca2eb75ab83_zpsb4350241.jpg

Nyarlathotep and Elder God Demonbane would disagree with you >.>..

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
How are you going to say you know it isn't? you have know proof that it isn't and I asked what anime are you referring to then? Just because it hasn't happened does not mean he cant, he has had no reason to do so and he hast to travel faster than light speed if he can instantly transmit himself acrossed a universe, that just goes to show that you know nothing of light speed or how the fundamentals of the universe work! wich would mean his body is traveling that fast so?

I don't have to prove a negative. It is you who must provide the positive evidence, as you are the one that made the positive claim.

I already mentioned 2 Anime's.

And my penis may be the eternal dragon for all you know, of course, I wouldn't expect you to accept this claim without evidence. Apply similar logic to your argument.

Oh look, a phiysics argument for Dragon Ball Z! And from a guy who understands nothing of canon no less!, Goku describes instant transmission in intimate detail when he reveals it. He states that when used, the user becomes a beam of light and energy. Light and energy only travel so fast, that's where the lightspeed comes from. I am well aware of the inconsistence as he has been shown to cross trans galactic distances in mere moments, and even to another plane of existence within his universe. That said, it is STILL different from Kiboto Kai's instantaneous movement technique, as that move at least has shown to break inter-universal barriers. Goku however does not posess Kibito Kai's instantaneous movement.

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
Very true but if something hasn't been proven to be impossible then it is still a possibility! just a hipothos, But fact is he can move much fast than light probably even fast than dark matter

*Sigh* Unless and until it is proven to be within his capabilities, then no, he does not have that ability.

Which of course you would gladly elaborate on?

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
That is still traveling

It is instant transmission, he is not physically moving, he is teleporting as a beam of light and energy. It's no different than saying guys in star trek suddenly move at lightspeed because of transporters.

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
Get your facts right. Instead, Goku simply demonstrated its ability to the fellow Z Fighters after his return by warping to Kame House and stealing Master Roshi's sunglasses in under a few seconds. Throughout the rest of the series, Goku uses the technique often to travel around the universe. Goku can even shift through realms, having no problem teleporting from Earth to King Kai's planet, and from there to New Namek. In the FUNimation Dub, Goku describes the technique as allowing him to move at the speed of light (specifically 186,282.397 miles per second), Goku uses two of his popular attacks with this technique, such as Instant Kamehameha and Instant Spirit Bomb.

Cool your jets. Those realms are still within the exact same universe, thts not inter-universal travel, we are talking about 2 completely different things here.

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
Fact from DragonBall Wiki!! It is revealed in the movie Dragon Ball Z: The Return of Cooler, that this move briefly moves the user into a pocket dimension which then allows them to move to any location instantly. However, the user cannot travel to an area they have never been to unless they can detect someone familiar to them to use as a homing beacon. hahahahah whats up nowwwwwww boyyyyy

3 things.

#1: Wikis are hardly trustworthy databases that allow any person access to edit the information.

#2: The movies are non-canon.

#3: This information has never even been hinted at outside of that movie, and the only reason it even exists was to give Cooler a way to neutralise the Instant Transmission.

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
That's not what everyone els has said and it stated that yes it is actually him moving threw the space.

And who is "everyone else"?

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
It allows the USER to MOVE to any location,

It allows the user to TELEPORT to any location. That is what has been demonstrated, that is what has been described by Goku, that is what it is, and that's ALL that it is.

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
◾Kami, Mr. Popo, Fortuneteller Baba, Tsururin Tsun, Kibito and later Kibito Kai also know a variation of the technique called Instantaneous Movement. This technique does not require an energy signature to home in on and does not use the typical Goku gesture. but its good enough for me I seen comments about it they say its good the name differs from dub and not dub is all

Read above concerning IM.

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
It is not different or well the only diff is that they do not have to sense ki! other than that it is the same idea

It is also using different principles and has done different things from Goku's IT. You cannot arbitrarily give factors of one technique and copy-paste it into another just because they are similar. It does not work that way.

Sorry i had to sic Darkstorm Zero on ya but i saw no other option

In the Japanese version it is constantly refered to as Instantaneous Movement. There is no real difference between the two.Vlcsnap-2013-06-16-21h03m01s82As shown here
Stitchking1Added by Stitchking1
The only real difference comes with the usual English Dub and their naming inconsistencies

that's also your opinion on the anime thing,

CANNON? I Do understand what is and isn't so>>>, and No there is no teleportation involved, its like a warp in space and time persay, wich is clearly diff from star treck type teleportation man come on

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
CANNON? I Do understand what is and isn't so>>>, and No there is no teleportation involved, its like a warp in space and time persay, wich is clearly diff from star treck type teleportation man come on Fact is your both wrong sorry to say

Dude, once again, use the edit button, PLEASE.

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
In the Japanese version it is constantly refered to as Instantaneous Movement. There is no real difference between the two.Vlcsnap-2013-06-16-21h03m01s82As shown here
Stitchking1Added by Stitchking1
The only real difference comes with the usual English Dub and their naming inconsistencies

Your links don't work for one. for two, the principals for the techniques are very different. For three we have no idea how Kibito Kai's IM works. He is a Supreme Kai, a god above gods. He doesn't have the fighting powers Goku has, but he does have capabilities Goku cannot emulate.

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
that's also your opinion on the anime thing,

What?

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
CANNON? I Do understand what is and isn't so>>>, and No there is no teleportation involved, its like a warp in space and time persay, wich is clearly diff from star treck type teleportation man come on

No, not Cannon, Canon, as in official to the Dragon Ball Universe. This is usually restricted to what Akira Toryama actually wrote or had a direct involvement in. As in, the Manga and a couple of the movies.

That's not what Goku describes.

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
Fact is your both wrong sorry to say

Fact check, you are giving IT a capability it never ever possessed, You are using a non-canon movie to try and pass of your explanation, and you are using a wiki as an official source. All 3 of these things are in fact, false. Thus it is YOU who is wrong, not us.

bro I know what official dbz is and god above god no sorry to say god of distruction is far above him

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Dude, once again, use the edit button, PLEASE.



Your links don't work for one. for two, the principals for the techniques are very different. For three we have no idea how Kibito Kai's IM works. He is a Supreme Kai, a god above gods. He doesn't have the fighting powers Goku has, but he does have capabilities Goku cannot emulate.



What?



No, not Cannon, Canon, as in official to the Dragon Ball Universe. This is usually restricted to what Akira Toryama actually wrote or had a direct involvement in. As in, the Manga and a couple of the movies.

That's not what Goku describes.



Fact check, you are giving IT a capability it never ever possessed, You are using a non-canon movie to try and pass of your explanation, and you are using a wiki as an official source. All 3 of these things are in fact, false. Thus it is YOU who is wrong, not us. How are you saying im false you have no basis to prove that

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
bro I know what official dbz is and god above god no sorry to say god of distruction is far above him

I mean in terms of the Kais dude...

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
How are you saying im false you have no basis to prove that

http://thethirdestate.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/picard-facepalm2.jpg

Seriously, how many different ways must I explain this to you?

You are trying to give Goku abilities he never had ever, and you are using faulty logic and non-canon evidence to support it. This is inherently false, thus your claim is false. This is simple, not rocket science.

Ok how are you saying im false?

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
Ok how are you saying im false?

READ. WHAT. I. SAY.

This has been explained to you 3 times, in 3 different ways.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You are trying to give Goku abilities he never had ever, and you are using faulty logic and non-canon evidence to support it. This is inherently false, thus your claim is false. This is simple, not rocket science.

I just used cooler as a reff not saying it was canon and where is my faulty logic? that's all I am saying but this is far to complicated for me to keep arguing about something that you are right I really don't know a whole lot about it.

so for the sack of the debate im going to give you the win

Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
I just used cooler as a reff not saying it was canon and where is my faulty logic? that's all I am saying but this is far to complicated for me to keep arguing about something that you are right I really don't know a whole lot about it.

By using Cooler Returns as a point of reference when it is not canon is, in itself, faulty logic.

If we start allowing non-canon material to have weight, all kinds of bad things happen, including various inconsistencies that tear debates apart.

The faulty logic is assuming that IT has a capability that it has never demonstrated. Assumptions cannot be proven as fact, and when we get into suppositions like this, threads enevitably degenerate into nothing but shitflinging and ends up with very little substance, if any at all.

I see, ok