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IMO Dooku takes this rather easyly. I'd give it to Dooku 9/10.

Krayt.

I'd give it to Krayt before his rebirth but he becomes a whole new animal after his rebirth. Certainly a stomp with the force, not really sure about sabers.

Whoa, what's Krayt done that would Force stomp Dooku?

He was pretty damn impressive as a sith. When he was reborn, guy could give sith the ability to sense enemies, he called every dark sider in the galaxy and what not, dark transfer, etc. Question is, what has Dooku done that would rival Krayt?

Originally posted by steveholt956
he called every dark sider in the galaxy and what not,

Now that is impressive. Luke does the same thing in Dark Nest and iirc is tires him to near exhaustion.

Krayt had difficulty with Celeste Morne, but Vader seems to have defeated her with ease.

Sure, but at that time Krayt wasn't close to his peak yet.

I don't see him stomping Dooku, but I agree with DS in that Krayt is more powerful in the force than Dooku.

Wasn't Muur possessing her when she beat Krayt though?

When she beat him, yeah. But before that he fought just Morne and she was holding her own quite well despite also defending herself from Maladi at the same time. Although, admittedly, Muur does say she would lose to Krayt given enough time.

Dooku in all three probably.

Originally posted by steveholt956
He was pretty damn impressive as a sith. When he was reborn, guy could give sith the ability to sense enemies, he called every dark sider in the galaxy and what not, dark transfer, etc. Question is, what has Dooku done that would rival Krayt?


How is any of that usable in combat?

Combat-wise, they don't seem to far apart.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
How is any of that usable in combat?

Combat-wise, they don't seem to far apart.
Combat-wise they seem very far apart. I'm not ready to give Krayt sabers though because he seems like the only competent saber fighter in the Legacy era.

S66 is right, though: the list of feats you provided don't appear to be applicable in combat.

Dooku's feats are better known than Krayt, hence my skepticism. What has Krayt done that suggests he could not beat but STOMP Dooku as you say?

Unless Krayt is Sidious-level he is not stomping Dooku.

According to Tempest he's portrayed as not far off Luke-level in Apocalypse.

O:

Originally posted by The_Tempest
S66 is right, though: the list of feats you provided don't appear to be applicable in combat.

Dooku's feats are better known than Krayt, hence my skepticism. What has Krayt done that suggests he could not beat but STOMP Dooku as you say?


Well, he can resurrect himself from the dead, make his presence felt in the force galaxy wide, kill and resurrect a Skywalker in the same fight, is powerful enough with force illusions to beat someone who's killed Sithlords with force illusions, is known to bare-hand block force lightning (something that like, five people have ever done. The others including Yoda, Revan, and Karness Muur), he's very skilled with sabers, and he's much older and more experienced than Dooku.



Note, Krayt was trying to turn her and have her alive so he could use the Muur talisman, and in their fight she was drawing heavily on the power of the talisman. Even so, he controlled the entire fight and she never landed a single blow on him.

Against Vader, she was not drawing on the Muur talisman (and was, btw, 100 years younger), and she landed a hit on Vader before being taken down (Celeste was pretty badass).

So, both clearly had the edge against her, Vader was faster in winning but took damage, Krayt was slower but remained untouched, and the talisman difference.


And that was Krayt when he was held back by the vong symbionts that were slowly killing him and hindered his force power. He received a huge powerup when he was free of them.

Originally posted by steveholt956
Combat-wise they seem very far apart. I'm not ready to give Krayt sabers though because he seems like the only competent saber fighter in the Legacy era.

Well, based on what exactly?

Antares Draco killed 7 sith warriors at once (like, not sequentially, 7 mobbing him), after taking out two at the same time, and having killed another prior in the day.


I'd rate him a little lower than Ganner Krieg or Shado Vao or Darth Havok (who beat Draco), who are in turn a solid tier below Cade Skywalker. Darth Wyyrlok was another badass, able to hold his own with Krayt before they switched to force. Krayt's above any of them, but there's two who can hold their own and around a dozen serious badasses below them.

And of course, this isn't some peace-time era, this is an era when the Jedi and Sith and Imperial Knights have been killing each other back and forth for 7 years.



There just seems to be this odd assumption that Legacy is weak in sabers based on precisely jack squat. Pretty much any major saber user in Legacy can cut down a half-dozen normal Jedi/sith like they're nothing, and by 'major' I can still mean 'would be lucky to last five seconds against Krayt'.

Originally posted by steveholt956
Combat-wise they seem very far apart. I'm not ready to give Krayt sabers though because he seems like the only competent saber fighter in the Legacy era.


So if you're not ready to give Krayt sabers, then how do you suggest he would overcome Dooku in combat, let alone "stomp" him? He doesn't have superior TK or lightning, and none of the feats you listed are usable in combat.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So if you're not ready to give Krayt sabers, then how do you suggest he would overcome Dooku in combat, let alone "stomp" him? He doesn't have superior TK or lightning, and none of the feats you listed are usable in combat.

Except he DOES have superior TK and lightning and that's how he's going to overcome Dooku. He is superior to Dooku in the force and I'm not sure how close it really is. Dooku's only hope is to get it to a saber duel and even then it's a toss up.

Based on what does he have superior TK?

Don't forget illusions.


Here, I'll go through a chain.

Darth Andeddu was a famous and powerful Sith, remembered and respected as such even by Dooku (who found his holocron). The other Sith of his time had to gang up to beat him. Darth Andeddu specialized in sorcery and could make illusions so real they could cause real damage and kill even other force users.


Darth Wyyrlok overcame his illusions and killed him with illusions, showing his clear superiority in illusions.


Darth Wyyrlok then tried to kill Krayt with illusions, and in turn Krayt overcame them and killed him.





He did mention Dark Transfer, which is what Krayt used to kill Cade Skywalker in their final duel (just got a hand on him and that was all it took. Then rez'd him). I mentioned quite a few other feats he's done in later points as well.



Originally posted by Intrepid37
Based on what does he have superior TK?

Krayt doesn't use TK much, but he does block Cade's TK easily, and Cade both tosses around small starships easily and shields against gigantic explosions.

So he can defend against TK greater than Dooku's.

The question should be, "what does dooku have that will allow him to go toe to toe with Krayt using the force"?

Taking your word for it that sounds pretty beastly, but Dooku's alleged superiority in skill should give him the win.

Not sure about that superiority personally.

Same. What books highlights Krayt's fighting abilities?

There's no guarantee Dooku is better than Krayt in sabers. Hell, he may not even be his equal (judging by Krayt's age and experience). However, he definitely does not compare in the force.

Well he beat a pissed off Anakin and did pretty well against Peak Kenobi as a Jedi, and he's apparantly much better as a Sith so I personally estimate him to be about the same level or higher than Dooku. He's got some good feats in the comics.

Originally posted by steveholt956
Except he DOES have superior TK and lightning and that's how he's going to overcome Dooku. He is superior to Dooku in the force and I'm not sure how close it really is. Dooku's only hope is to get it to a saber duel and even then it's a toss up.


As far as TK, Dooku has rag-dolled Obi Wan, easily collapsed cave ceilings, lifted several huge monoliths simultaneously, overpowered Ventress, effortlessly crushed a huge column after his duel with Yoda, collapsed a balcony, easily overpowered and choked Vos and relieved him of his saber simultaneously, and so much more. What has Krayt done with TK that tops that?

Dooku's lightning was powerful enough to knock Bulq unconscious with a single blast, kill several Kiffar warriors all at once, cause a pretty good size explosion, knock Ventress unconscious, knock Anakin unconscious, etc. What has Krayt done with lightning that tops that?


@Q99


Krayt would have to put his hands on Dooku for Dark essence transfer to work, and how is he going to do that unless he first overpowers Dooku in combat, which is something I'm waiting on you guys to prove that he can do.

And Wyyrlok did not try to kill Krayt with illusions, he used his sorcery causing Krayt to "relive" the tragic moments of his past. And while doing so, he tried to kill Krayt with his saber.

Also, when did Krayt use illusions on anyone? I went through the comic this morning, and what Krayt did to Cade in their final battle did not seem like an illusion, it seemed more like Krayt was putting a vision in Cade's mind, trying to get Cade to embrace his anger, which he achieved after he had already weakened him with his dark essence transfer.

Just out of interest, when did Dooku collapse cave ceilings and when did he kill Kiffar warriors with his lightning?

The same lightning that couldn't knock Obi Wan down? As far as I remember, nothing has stopped Krayt's lightning before. Also, Krayt defeated I believe 5 Imperial Knights at the same time, right before he took the thrown. When has Dooku done anything that impressive?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Just out of interest, when did Dooku collapse cave ceilings and when did he kill Kiffar warriors with his lightning?


The killing of the Kiffar warriors happened in the comic "Jedi: Count Dooku", I believe. As for collapsing a cave ceiling, he did that in TCW series, in the episode where gets captured by pirates. He collapsed the ceiling to trap Kenobi and Anakin inside.


@stevenholt


Krayt killed a bunch of featless knights. Besides, you already admitted that you are unsure if Krayt is better than Dooku in sabers, but you definitely did say he has better TK and lightning feats, and I'm still waiting for you to provide them.

So killing the Kiffar warriors was relevant but Krayt's dispatching of Imperial Knights was not. Gotcha..




He also knew the shatterpoint technique.

Originally posted by steveholt956
So killing the Kiffar warriors was relevant but Krayt's dispatching of Imperial Knights was not. Gotcha..


Except I wasn't suggesting that Dooku's lightning was superior to Krayt's based on him killing the Kiffar warriors, I was just listing different lightning feats from him, and asking you to provide any lightning feats from Krayt that tops them. You, on the other hand, seemed to be suggesting that Krayt was superior to Dooku in bladework just because he killed four featless knights.

I actually said that they don't seem too far apart combat-wise, while you claimed they are far apart and that Krayt would stomp Dooku. I'm aware of all the feats you just now listed, and none of them are far beyond what Dooku has done. They seem about even to me, and I think it would be a good fight.

I've not questioned Krayt's ability to defeat Dooku. But stomp him in the Force? That's a very tall order with someone of Dooku's caliber that only a handful of characters have a shot of accomplishing.

Krayt may very well be among them, but resurrection and shatterpoint aren't by default Dooku-stomping.

Anyone have scans?

Never knew Krayt called upon all the darksiders in the galaxy, must have missed an issue.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Never knew Krayt called upon all the darksiders in the galaxy, must have missed an issue.

Issue 50.

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16206494_Star_Wars_-_Legacy_50_016.jpghttp://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16206495_Star_Wars_-_Legacy_50_017.jpg

It's cool, but useless when it comes to combat.

Originally posted by steveholt956
The same lightning that couldn't knock Obi Wan down? As far as I remember, nothing has stopped Krayt's lightning before.

Morne blocked it. And it appears Wyyrlok did as well.

Holy, that's awesome. Useless in combat, but it does show his "power level" for lack of a better term.

Indeed, as I said thats a Luke-level feat. Hell, Luke was exhausted from that whereas Krayt didn't seem that affected.

If that's Luke level, the Count has no chance.

A more relevant comparison between Krayt and Luke is their brawl with Abeloth wherein both seemed to deal her comparable damage.

That said, it's silly to think that Krayt rivaling/surpassing Luke in a random non-combat aspect of the Force means that he's as strong as Luke. One might as well say that Bastila is more powerful than Revan because of her expertise in battle meditation or that Mace outclasses Yoda because of his superior aptitude for detecting shatterpoints.

Except those are unique abilities whereas telepathy is more universal and Krayt is never mentioned as having special talent with it. Its indicative of similar levels of power, just like in all cases of Uber-feats in the mythos.

Not really. Sidious's feats of telepathy shit all over Luke's. Does that mean he is beyond Luke in TK?

BTW, Correct me if I'm wrong, but Luke actually sent a message across the galaxy. Krayt "merely" sent ripples.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That said, it's silly to think that Krayt rivaling/surpassing Luke in a random non-combat aspect of the Force means that he's as strong as Luke. One might as well say that Bastila is more powerful than Revan because of her expertise in battle meditation or that Mace outclasses Yoda because of his superior aptitude for detecting shatterpoints.

Originally posted by ares834
Not really. Sidious's feats of telepathy shit all over Luke's. Does that mean he is beyond Luke in TK?

BTW, Correct me if I'm wrong, but Luke actually sent a message across the galaxy. Krayt "merely" sent ripples.

No they don't. estahuh

It says that they felt his will 'dominant and seductive' in their minds.

Originally posted by ares834
Not really. Sidious's feats of telepathy shit all over Luke's. Does that mean he is beyond Luke in TK?

Sidious enslaved a planet...

Um, cool. Doesn't change what I said though. Luke sent a literal message throughout the force. Krayt didn't.

Problem is, Luke sent a message to a hundred jedi or so. Krayt did it to thousands upon thousands of sith.

It's definitely an impressive feat in non-combat context. But I maintain that that does not automatically confer superiority over Dooku, let alone Luke.

Out of curiosity, how dispersed were these Sith?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's definitely an impressive feat in non-combat context. But I maintain that that does not automatically confer superiority over Dooku, let alone Luke.

Oh, he's not superior to Luke (save in a few specialities- his knowledge of healing is greater, obviously).


But, he's shown feats that require more raw power in the force than Dooku, and other feats that show more skill and knowledge of the force. Combat-wise, he's also a very dominanting presence in combat, with great skill in several very strong combat areas of the force (can bare-hands absorb lightning, can use high-level illusions, can block very strong TK, can dark-transfer kill), as well as being more experienced in sabers and being second to no-one in his era, despite there being a quantity of fighters with impressive saber skills in Legacy.




In all of maybe two seconds, mind, which is still impressive. If someone is surrounded on four sides by four attackers, who aren't caught off guard and are people in elite jobs, and then they're all just dead, then that is pretty badass.


Furthermore, he's fought with Celeste Morne-powered-by-talisman (to which Muur taunted she was no match for him), Cade Skywalker, and Darth Wyyrlok, and was untouched by any of them. Cade, unsurprisingly as the main character, has a crapton of saber feats against named characters and quantities of foes both, and it was only at the end of the series that he was able to put up a fight.




Let me point out many fights have someone getting hit by physical blows and then the fight continuing.

Dark transfer changes 'I get a single hand in' from 'annoyance blow' to 'immediately fatal.'


Also, aside from overpowering there is the illusion force power.





Wyyrlok has killed with illusions themselves before, remember (against a Sith sorcery specialist), and yet his was still beaten.



One, I'm not sure how 'making someone see your vision' is different from an illusion per se.


Two, look at the Wyyrlok vs Krayt fight. Krayt appears to be unarmed until he breaks Wyyrlok's illusions, at which point he suddenly has both of his blades in hand.




Wyyrlok, btw, is someone who I'd say is overall around Dooku level. Powerful in the force, powerful in sabers, and generally pretty badass, but can't quite beat the boss.


Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's definitely an impressive feat in non-combat context. But I maintain that that does not automatically confer superiority over Dooku, let alone Luke.

Out of curiosity, how dispersed were these Sith?

Dispersed...? Well, they largely trained on one planet for much of a century with some covert expeditions for various specific goal, then they went and deployed all over the galaxy when they revealed themselves, though retrained two main bases on Korriban and the Sith/Jedi Temple on Coruscant.

At the time of his call, they were across the galaxy?

Look at the scans. A few different planets to say the least.

Missed the scan. Yeah, it's pretty explicit that it's a galaxy-spanning call. Still not putting him above Luke and still skeptical he'd stomp Dooku, but mission accomplished Q99: I believe in Krayt.

Originally posted by steveholt956
Problem is, Luke sent a message to a hundred jedi or so. Krayt did it to thousands upon thousands of sith.

I don't think it should really matter. In both cases it was just them sending out their will throughout the galaxy.

I don't think Krayt would stomp Dooku either btw. I just think he'd beat him with difficulty.

As a lightsaber duelist, as A'sharad Hett he did lose to Kenobi originally, however, he put up a solid fight. After his turn to the Dark Side and his training from Vegere and Xoxxan I'm positive he's increased marginally. At this time he was able to slay 4 Imperial Knights in seconds. And he again increases after he rids himself of the Vong Infestations. I would say he's Dooku tier from all of that, considering Kenobi shouldn't be leagues below Dooku in terms of lightsaber ability.

With the Force, Krayt has an obvious advantage. With Telekinesis, he's shown capability to discipline Darth Nihl, and blast through columns in the Sith Temple. Dooku's feats eclipse these. However, Krayt also shows proficiency with Force Lightning, being able to crumble pillars with it, kill rackgoul monsters, and match Darth Wyyrlock's lightning, which has shown the ability to kill. This eclipses Dooku's lightning feats. Telepathically, Krayt has resisted Darth Wyyrlock's illusions, that of which matched Sith Lord Darth Andeddu's (Which is extremely impressive.) and he's send a ripple through the Force touching all Dark Siders in the galaxy. He's also used Illusional powers against Cade, which seem to be pretty effective in their final battle. Again he eclipses Dooku. Finally, Krayt can see shatterpoint and use Dark Transfer, allowing him to heal FATAL injuries as long as he's still conscious. Meaning if Dooku stabs him, he can heal it. This ability also means if he can touch Dooku with his hands, the battle is over. Krayt eclipses Dooku with the Force.

All Out--Krayt has a strong advantage over Dooku in his prime. Obviously this isn't a stomp--But Dooku's only advantages are in pure skill and Telekinesis. When it comes to Force Lightning, Telepathic Ability, and Dark Transfer--Krayt has it all. Krayt is one of the most powerful Sith Lords imo.

Originally posted by Q99
In all of maybe two seconds, mind, which is still impressive. If someone is surrounded on four sides by four attackers, who aren't caught off guard and are people in elite jobs, and then they're all just dead, then that is pretty badass.


It's very impressive, I'm not denying that, but I wouldn't put Krayt above Dooku in sabers based on that showing, because the knights he killed were featless. I'd say fighting Ventress and two other nightsisters while drugged and blind, is at least comparable, especially considering that Ventress is practically Kenobi's equal in saber combat and is among the best saber duelists in the prime of the jedi order.

Not to mention Dooku has also fought evenly with Windu, who was second to Yoda in the jedi order.



Originally posted by Q99
Let me point out many fights have someone getting hit by physical blows and then the fight continuing.

Dark transfer changes 'I get a single hand in' from 'annoyance blow' to 'immediately fatal.'


Are you suggesting that any physical contact with Krayt results in an instant death? If so, can you post a scan of this happening? Because in his final fight with Cade, it seems as though Krayt had to first gather energy throughout his body and release it through his hands.

Plagueis once boiled the blood of a prophetess, killing her just by touching her hands, but I wouldn't suggest that he can instantly kill an opponent just by landing a physical blow during combat.



Originally posted by Q99
One, I'm not sure how 'making someone see your vision' is different from an illusion per se.


I've always thought of force illusions as what Luke did in DE when he made a replica of himself, tricking Leia in believing it was really him. What Krayt did to Cade seemed more like he put Cade in a dream-like state, similar to Anakin's dreams/force-visions of Padme's death while sleeping, as Cade was barely even conscious and on the verge of death. There is nothing to suggest he can do the same to a fully conscious and prepared Dooku mid-combat.


Originally posted by Q99
Wyyrlok, btw, is someone who I'd say is overall around Dooku level. Powerful in the force, powerful in sabers, and generally pretty badass, but can't quite beat the boss.


Well, in that case, Krayt and Wyyrlok seemed to be fighting as near equals until Wyyrlok gained the upper hand by putting Krayt in a trance, causing him to 'relive' the tragic moments of his past. It seems as though Krayt's victory over Wyyrlok had a lot to do with Wyyrlok underestimating him: Wyyrlok stands over Krayt seemingly savoring his short lived advantage over him, giving Krayt a lengthy speech on his knowledge of Krayt's past, and then started bragging about how powerful he was and telling Krayt that he was not as powerful as he believed.

Still not seeing what Krayt has that is superior to Dooku in terms of combat skill. Dooku's variation of feats such as dueling evenly with some of the order's best swordsmen and mastery telekinetic powers seems superior in my opinion.

Krayt had no equals during his time, in both the force or saber combat. Cade is the only one who comes close, maybe Wyyrlok. Still not seeing how Dooku matches up.

And Cade/Wyyrlok has done exactly what?

Dooku has brought down metal platforms, lifted dozens of obelisk stones, ragdolled Kenobi with the flick of a wrist, disarmed Ventress twice via telekinesis etc.

Dooku has held his own against Yoda, fought as an equal with Mace, stomped Grievous, beaten Ventress and two nightsisters while drugged and blind, stomped AotC Obi-Wan, stomped Quinlan Vos, stomped Tholme, stomped Sora Bulq, is regarded as one of the most skilled lightsaber instructors, is one of the most powerful Jedi in the 25,000 year history of the order and an even greater Lord of the Sith, etc.

He also seems faster. He's faster than Obi-Wan who is faster than Qui-Gon who can move in a blur, move instantaneous, move his blade so fast it expands into a shield, move so fast an eyelooker woudln't be able to see him.

Dooku wins.

That's a hilarious argument. Let me try. Krayt defeated 4 Imperial Knights at once. HE seems faster, HE seems like a blur. Krayt Wins.

Sure, because moving a blur is above Dooku's capabilities.

Also, good to see you ignored the other part.

You said nothing different than Sidious 66. Congratulations on piggybacking on his argument, then adding a random "Dooku wins". Next time try providing ones actually relevant to Dooku's alleged superiority

I did but you chose to ignore it. Not my fault.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I did but you chose to ignore it. Not my fault.

You didn't but that's alright.

I did, actually. I provided Dooku's best feats. Tell me what Krayt has done better?

It was provided on the first 3 pages. You chose to ignore it, not my fault. Dooku's feats don't compare to Krayt's. Add to the fact that Krayt matched Luke pound for pound against Abeloth, and that feat alone puts him ahead of Dooku. Ergo. Krayt wins.

Well, similar to that, though not with sabers, young Krayt did once fight through the crew of a Vong ship, unarmed.




His hand was glowing first, yea, but he can do that at any time. It's a powerful weapon in his arsenal.



Originally posted by Intrepid37
And Cade/Wyyrlok has done exactly what?


Cade's tossed around a small starship, force-shielded against a giant explosion (base he was in blew up), killed probably dozens of Sith and Sith Troopers (who are strong cyborg force users), fought against quite a lot of named badasses who've engaged in lots of combat themselves (Jedi, Sith, and Imperial Knights, multiple of which have double-digit force user kill counts on page), and much as you'd expect from the main character of a 56 issue series, has a fairly long laundry list of killing stuff with a lightsaber and using strong force powers.


Wyyrlok? He killed the malevolence cultists easily, then, oh yes, killed Darth Andeddu, a sith lord so powerful that the other sith lords of the old empire ganged up to take him on, and Wyyrlok beat him in his own speciality in his own layer.





Mind you, A'Sharad, let alone Krayt, is only one step down from post-RotS Obi-wan in sabers (you know, the one who beat Anakin who beat Dooku). Someone like Quinlan Vos or Tholme or AotC Obi-wan or even Ventress or Sora Bulq is going to lose against him, and that's just at the time him.


Then he got 30 years of Sith training. Then he fought Abeloth alongside Luke. Then he got decades more of experience and searching out sith knowledge. Then he got rid of his Vong implants, freeing his force power from having to constantly fight them to work unrestricted in the first time in a century, while gaining insight and new powers from having passed through death.





Really your arguments do read to me mostly like era-bias.



Btw, I don't think Krayt is necessarily much different in level than Dooku in sabers, but he is clearly top-level, and he's shown more force raw power and more force knowledge and abilities.

Originally posted by Q99
Cade's tossed around a small starship, force-shielded against a giant explosion (base he was in blew up), killed probably dozens of Sith and Sith Troopers (who are strong cyborg force users), fought against quite a lot of named badasses who've engaged in lots of combat themselves (Jedi, Sith, and Imperial Knights, multiple of which have double-digit force user kill counts on page), and much as you'd expect from the main character of a 56 issue series, has a fairly long laundry list of killing stuff with a lightsaber and using strong force powers.
How small a starship? Bigger than something like a Y-wing?

His powers sounds good but I'm not impressed by you pointing out that he killed ''Jedi, Sith, and Imperial Knights''.


Originally posted by Q99
Wyyrlok? He killed the malevolence cultists easily, then, oh yes, killed Darth Andeddu, a sith lord so powerful that the other sith lords of the old empire ganged up to take him on, and Wyyrlok beat him in his own speciality in his own layer.
None of this sounds extremely impressive.

Originally posted by Q99
Mind you, A'Sharad, let alone Krayt, is only one step down from post-RotS Obi-wan in sabers (you know, the one who beat Anakin who beat Dooku).
This is horrible A>B>C logic. A'Sharad being below Kenobi isn't a good start considering Kenobi is below Dooku.

Originally posted by Q99
Someone like Quinlan Vos or Tholme or AotC Obi-wan or even Ventress or Sora Bulq is going to lose against him, and that's just at the time him.
Based on what? A'Sharad lost to Kenobi. Ventress has fought Kenobi evenly and Bulq has his own share of feats and accolades.

Originally posted by Q99
Then he got 30 years of Sith training. Then he fought Abeloth alongside Luke. Then he got decades more of experience and searching out sith knowledge. Then he got rid of his Vong implants, freeing his force power from having to constantly fight them to work unrestricted in the first time in a century, while gaining insight and new powers from having passed through death.
Not sure how any of this translates into a fight with Dooku except gaining more experience and knowledge.



Originally posted by Q99
Really your arguments do read to me mostly like era-bias.
Not really. My knowledge about Krayt's era is limited but from what I have seen so far, nothing suggests he can match Dooku as a swordsman and if he is superior to Dooku in terms of power (mostly talking telekinesis), I doubt it's gonna be a game changer.

Nothing suggests Dooku can match Krayt in anything but a saber battle.

Originally posted by steveholt956
Nothing suggests Dooku can match Krayt in anything but a saber battle.
What suggests that Krayt can match Dooku as a swordsman?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What suggests that Krayt can match Dooku as a swordsman?

The fact that he had over 100 years to practice (obviously accounting for stasis) since he lost to Obiwan, and the fact that he flat out owned 4 imperial knights within seconds.

How good are imperial knights?

Imperial Knights are Jedi Knights and Masters who pledged loyalty to the Empire. They're no neophytes.

So they're featless.

8y7LPEo8dWk

The Knights that were chosen specifically to be the Emperor's guards were masters. Good try though

They're still without any feats. Beating four of them is in no way close to Dooku's level of skill, expertise and general list of feats.

Beating 4 masters at the same time and rather quickly puts him at Dooku's level at the very least.

I don't see how. Dooku's beaten Ventress and two nightsisters while drugged.

Oh nightsisters. Wow.. Killer feat

Definitely better than Krayt's.

Not even close

rofl

I'm going to agree with Q99 on the era-bias. Intrepid seems to have a big ol' boner for CW era combatants. I was acknowledging some merit to his arguments up until he started just disregarding feats and going 'Dooku wins suck it.'

I debate for who I think wins based on respective feats and accolades.

Sure you do buddy.

Yep.

Originally posted by Nephthys
until he started just disregarding feats and going 'Dooku wins suck it.'
Never said that...?

Wyyrlok beating Andeddu at his own specialty doesn't sound impressive? What are you smoking son?

lol

I have already said that my knowledge about the Legacy era is limited, and unless I have missed something, no one has provided feats for Andeddu, and I am not sure what own specialty is supposed to mean?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm going to agree with Q99 on the era-bias. Intrepid seems to have a big ol' boner for CW era combatants. I was acknowledging some merit to his arguments up until he started just disregarding feats and going 'Dooku wins suck it.'


But you don't feel the same way about stevenholt? At least Intrepid is not claiming that Dooku would stomp Krayt. He also hasn't disregarded any of Krayt's feats, he's merely saying that he doesn't find any of his feats that were mentioned in this thread to be as impressive as Dooku's. Stevenholt, however, is suggesting that Krayt can stomp Dooku via lightning and TK, although none of the feats he listed regarding lightning and TK are far beyond Dooku's. If anything, Dooku seems to have an edge in TK, IMO, while Krayt's lightning may be a bit better. But overall, they both seem to be on par with eachother combat-wise.

So why are you only pointing fingers at Intrepid? Stevenholt seems to be the only one disregarding feats.

Thank you.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But you don't feel the same way about stevenholt? At least Intrepid is not claiming that Dooku would stomp Krayt. He also hasn't disregarded any of Krayt's feats, he's merely saying that he doesn't find any of his feats that were mentioned in this thread to be as impressive as Dooku's. Stevenholt, however, is suggesting that Krayt can stomp Dooku via lightning and TK, although none of the feats he listed regarding lightning and TK are far beyond Dooku's. If anything, Dooku seems to have an edge in TK, IMO, while Krayt's lightning may be a bit better. But overall, they both seem to be on par with eachother combat-wise.

So why are you only pointing fingers at Intrepid? Stevenholt seems to be the only one disregarding feats.

Amusing. Because my disregard of feats was a response to Intrepid's disregard of feats, which mimicked your own. As someone who is PT era biased, you shouldn't be telling DE to look at my posts, especially since you and Intrepid voice the same arguments and disregard most of non PT stuff. Notice that I said Krayt would stomp in the force, but saber battles it's pretty even. But...Selective reading>

Yeah, 'cause Krayt has shown himself able to stomp Dooku in the force and match him in duel.

No.

That explains your whole argument. I'll counter your simple minded argument with a rebuttal that will destroy said argument.

"Yes".

It wasn't an argument.

Originally posted by steveholt956
Notice that I said Krayt would stomp in the force


Which is something you have yet to prove. Krayt doesn't have better TK feats, and his lightning isn't much greater either, so how the hell is he going to stomp Dooku in the force? The fact that you are even claiming that Krayt would stomp Dooku in the force makes it quite clear that you are disregarding Dooku's force feats. Yeah, I may be biased, but you're the one who lets your bias affect your arguments. So stop calling others out for being bias, and pretending that you're not.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Which is something you have yet to prove. Krayt doesn't have better TK feats, and his lightning isn't much greater either, so how the hell is he going to stomp Dooku in the force? The fact that you are even claiming that Krayt would stomp Dooku in the force makes it quite clear that you are disregarding Dooku's force feats. Yeah, I may be biased, but you're the one who lets your bias affect your arguments. So stop calling others out for being bias, and pretending that you're not.

So you're claiming I'm biased but your arguments aren't affected? That's exactly what a biased person would say. "Yea I like this guy more but I'm totally objective in this argument". And Krayt's feats ARE better than Dooku's, you just don't think so which isn't my problem.

Finally, I didn't say I was objective in this case either. I certainly don't care much for the PT era. But at least I don't operate under the guise of objectivity in this thread. That would be you.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Which is something you have yet to prove. Krayt doesn't have better TK feats, and his lightning isn't much greater either, so how the hell is he going to stomp Dooku in the force?

He's defended against stronger TK than Dooku's, and can absorb lightning. Neither will work against him.

As for offense, I will note his Force Drain was highly effective against Abeloth, with is nothing to laugh at.


And he has additional force powers that Dooku does not, and he has shown more raw power in the force overall.



But, Krayt has gone up against people with very high feats and outmatched them, Cade has larger TK feats than Dooku. And his own raw might in the force is greater.




Extra-ironic in that A'Sharad was himself a high-level CW era combatant before getting masses of experience, sith training, and significant power-ups.






I believe this is what people mean by saying you disregard feats. If you are not personally familiar with a feat, you tend to discount it and assume it's smaller without any proof that it was. The evidence doesn't point to it being weaker, you just assume that's the case.


---

Andeddu was not from the legacy era, but from the Old Sith Empire. He was a great sorcerer of legend who was one of the first to figure out immortality. His power was so great that the other ancient Sith lords feared him and ganged up on him to defeat him, afraid to take him on one on one.

Dooku himself once found Andeddu's holocron and spoke highly of his knowledge and skill in sorcery. It was his holocron he used to instruct Quinlan Vos (who you do know).


Andeddu was not truly dead, though, and had placed his spirit in his holocron. During the Legacy era, he gained a new, healthy body. In this body, and armed with his staff with a force-crystal in it, he tried to use his illusion sorcery, which could make even illusionary wounds real, to kill Wyyrlok, only Wyyrlok was better still with it and killed him in return.


Darth Krayt's second in command killed a Sith of old that Dooku considered a great sith lord, in a strait-up contest where Andeddu was using his strongest area.

I don't ''disregard'' it. In fact, I haven't disregarded anything. In fact, I explicitly asked how big the ship that Cade threw was. In fact, I noted Dooku's superiority as ''alleged''. When Nephthys said he wasn't sure of that superiority, I agreed. I also noted that Krayt seemed beastly.

So no, I'm not disregarding anything.

All one has to say is "Krayt was more than Luke's equal against Abeloth" and that alone puts him above Dooku as far as the force is concerned. No need for anything else.

Except he really wasn't. The way the fight went down it was pretty much Luke restraining Abeloth and Krayt getting some hits in.

I'm not sure I'm getting that when I read the book. Wasn't the book pretty explicit about them both being equals?

I don't recall that. You got a specific passage in mind?

I don't have the book in front of me. I'll download it.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Duel_at_the_Lake_of_Apparitions

I just downloaded the book so I'll look for more specific things.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I don't ''disregard'' it. In fact, I haven't disregarded anything. In fact, I explicitly asked how big the ship that Cade threw was.

It's hard to tell the precise size since it was part in a swamp, but 'bigger than the stone columns Dooku lifted in that big TK feat' to be sure.

Originally posted by Q99
It's hard to tell the precise size since it was part in a swamp, but 'bigger than the stone columns Dooku lifted in that big TK feat' to be sure.

What issue/story arc was it? I can get the scans if you know.

Originally posted by ares834
What issue/story arc was it? I can get the scans if you know.

It's one of the early ones, I think 3 or 4? The ship is a wreck, and in the one panel the whole thing can be see it's some distance from Cade and a reasonably sizable transport. Smaller than the Falcon, but he does just toss the whole thing.


For a more defensive TK feat, in #46 he shields himself and Deliah Blue from a giant explosion.

The Ship Feat:

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16212356_blz18.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16212357_blz19.jpg

Explosion Feat:

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16212358_Star_Wars_-_Legacy_46_021.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16212360_Star_Wars_-_Legacy_46_022.jpg

Also just because it's awesome. Here is Cade mind-raping Maladi who herself is adept at illusions/telepathy.

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16212361_Star_Wars_-_Legacy_46_013.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16212362_Star_Wars_-_Legacy_46_014.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16212363_Star_Wars_-_Legacy_-_War_2_011.jpg

Originally posted by ares834
The Ship Feat:

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16212356_blz18.jpg

Yea, there it is, you can see it in the first panel

Was gonna address the previous 3 pages post-by-post, but point-by-point might be a little easier.

I.

That Krayt was unequaled in his time does not automatically confer superiority over Dooku, who is a duelist of another time. That Dooku was one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith in all of galactic history does not automatically affirm the reverse.

II.

Questioning the caliber of Krayt and Dooku's respective opponents is a legitimate line of inquiry. Both sides have offered pertinent points: both Dooku's Nightsisters and Krayt's Imperial Knights are presently featless. Neither are without some measure of repute: Karis and Naa'leth were endorsed by Talzin as the greatest warriors of the Nightsister clan and the Imperial Knights, as protectors of the galactic sovereign, are likely to be highly trained warriors.

I'm more familiar with Dooku's brawl with the Nightsisters than Krayt's slaughter of the Knights, but I'm not instinctively impressed by one over the other: Krayt killed them fairly quickly whereas Dooku's was a more protracted struggle. On the other hand, the Count was not in full command of his faculties whereas Krayt presumably was.

III.

Everyone's got their biases. Let's evaluate by strength of argument instead.

IV.

That Dooku considered Andeddu a "great Sith Lord" does not mean Krayt's victory over the man who defeated Andeddu confers superiority over the Count. Dooku refers to Maul as a "great Sith" in "Witches of the Mist""Monster" but I don't see him losing to Maul.

V.

Krayt acquitted himself well against Abeloth, yes. But if he were truly pound-for-pound Luke's equal... wouldn't his performance against Celeste Morne and Karness Muur have been dramatically different?

VI.

Cade's manipulation of that wreck is impressive. However, it doesn't appear to be any larger than the shuttle Maul hurled at his pursuers in "Revival." And Dooku is almost certainly a superior Force user than he.

VII.

I'm persuaded that Krayt can pull a victory here. He has another lifetime's worth of experience and a number of potentially decisive tricks at his disposal. But Dooku is enormously powerful and skilled. In terms of strict swordsmanship, I'm inclined to give him an edge as well in raw Force might. If Krayt wins, and he very well may, it won't be a stomp.

I think the majority agrees with you barring Intrepid and Steve. Karyt seems better but not by much. Its like:

Tier 1: Luke, Palpatine, Nihilus, Vitiate, Yoda, Bane, Ones, (Hero of Tython maybe).

Tier 2: Dooku, Vader, Windu, Krayt, Zannah, Caedus, Malgus, Revan (???) Other Tier 2 people I can't be bothered to write up.

Tier 3: Who cares?

Theres obviously like 'high tier 2' or whatever, but they're still in the same ball park.

It gets increasingly harder to place characters given disparate showings and capricious stylistic decisions.

x a million.

I still think people have always been a little disingenuous in ranking Yoda among the absolute most powerful Force Users, especially if you honor the movie's portrayal of him. I feel if you put the entirety of the EU into perspective you cannot realistically conclude that he's truly among the most powerful.

I still think people have always been a littleexceptionally disingenuous when thinking that stylistic decisions and discrepancies are ironclad and legitimate, somehow concluding that -- for some bizarre reason -- film-era characters are just weirdly weaker than others. As if Bane, in a George Lucas movie, really would be deflecting rainstorms with his lightsaber and collapsing temples.

I agree that he's not Luke's equal, but three things to say about that.

Morne, he was overwhelming and had control of the fight because he wanted her to surrender, he had use for her.

Once Muur took the drivers seat, things got serious... then a Jedi Master stabbed him in the back when they were starting out.

And finally, that was Armored Krayt. Resurrected Krayt > Krayt fighting off the vong symbionts in him.

Everything before his return, as strong a force as he is there, is Krayt with a handicap.




I'd put Bane in the second group as well. But pretty much, yea.

Tier 2 I'd classify as "truly powerful/strongest in a normal era," tier 1 as the "Exceptional of all time/strongest of an exceptional era."

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I still think people have always been a littleexceptionally disingenuous when thinking that stylistic decisions and discrepancies are ironclad and legitimate, somehow concluding that -- for some bizarre reason -- film-era characters are just weirdly weaker than others. As if Bane, in a George Lucas movie, really would be deflecting rainstorms with his lightsaber and collapsing temples.

Well I don't believe a question of style has ever been a prevalent defense regarding Yoda's placement in the power hierarchy of Force Users in the first place, presently or historically, among the majority and more significant members of this forum. For the most part I am referring to people who fully take into consideration the greater feats we've seen performed in canon and still wish to argue that what Yoda performs is comparatively impressive which is largely what I disagree with.

I also don't believe you can claim that fluctuations in power levels are always a product of differences in style; while there are cases where the creators have basically made that clear, such as The Force Unleashed or the original Clone Wars cartoons, if you wish to look at Bane as an example not only is he explored within a medium that lends itself to more accurate, realistic interpretations given its detailed and literal nature (whereas animation and comic books have a strong predisposition for visual exaggerations and inaccuracies and are usually marketed towards a younger audience that don't put as much thought into narrative realism and consistency) but his demonstrations of power make complete sense within the wider context of the narrative with regards to his character, his role and his progression. Bane's story was essentially the story of a prophesied being, an instrument of change destined for big things that clearly relied on both his intellect and his exceptional power to proceed with his plans, and everything that he performed was consistent with the events and descriptions found in the novel (many of which had already been an established part of canon for years). I believe you would have a much harder case arguing that Bane's power level was more a matter of style rather than the creative vision Drew Karpyshyn had for the story he was telling (bare in mind I'm limiting these points to PoD as I have yet to read DoE and RoT isn't entirely).

The films do not preclude the possibility that there could have existed vastly greater Force Users throughout history than the ones we are presented with in the films and in the face of strong evidence that would suggest as much I don't think it's an entirely inaccurate viewpoint.

In any event I don't think people necessarily disagree that these discrepancies largely are owing to the fact that there are clearly differences in style; for the most part I believe people would consider stuff like TFU to be widely exaggerated but that doesn't prevent them from creating threads with Galen Marek and considering the full scope of what he displayed in those games. I think it's a case where people would rather not limit these hypothetical scenarios by keeping everything consistent with canon and it's not something I necessarily disagree with and would probably have a slightly different opinion if a thread were specifically addressing CW Yoda or DE Sidious or something, but the truth is that there's only really been a universal use of the Yoda character in these forums, and that character will in general terms always be limited by his lower showings in the highest form of canon, and by comparison he does not compare to the higher end combatants. And while his showings in the Eu have been significantly greater they still do not stack up with the kinds of things we've seen performed by other characters in the EU so i wouldn't suggest that his CW cartoon incarnation be included among their number either.

And lastly now you're just speaking in crazy hypotheticals, GL did not possess the creative brilliance and masterful storytelling to create a character as marvelously fabulous as Bane and chances are that if he wanted to put the character in one of his movies, Drew simply wouldn't allow it.

I wonder how EU supporters will feel if they made a Clone wars era novel or show that had feats that pretty much trumped anything from the EU.

I think they did and called it The Force Unleashed.

They also made a series called Star Wars: Clone Wars with that as a basic premise.

Movie characters will always be at a disadvantage in that sense as the further they veer away from the movies the less accurate they become, whereas EU characters will always have the possibility of simply being on a far higher level to what we see in the movies.

Originally posted by noitseuq
Well I don't believe a question of style has ever been a prevalent defense regarding Yoda's placement in the power hierarchy of Force Users in the first place, presently or historically, among the majority and more significant members of this forum. For the most part I am referring to people who fully take into consideration the greater feats we've seen performed in canon and still wish to argue that what Yoda performs is comparatively impressive which is largely what I disagree with.

I also don't believe you can claim that fluctuations in power levels are always a product of differences in style; while there are cases where the creators have basically made that clear, such as The Force Unleashed or the original Clone Wars cartoons, if you wish to look at Bane as an example not only is he explored within a medium that lends itself to more accurate, realistic interpretations given its detailed and literal nature (whereas animation and comic books have a strong predisposition for visual exaggerations and inaccuracies and are usually marketed towards a younger audience that don't put as much thought into narrative realism and consistency) but his demonstrations of power make complete sense within the wider context of the narrative with regards to his character, his role and his progression. Bane's story was essentially the story of a prophesied being, an instrument of change destined for big things that clearly relied on both his intellect and his exceptional power to proceed with his plans, and everything that he performed was consistent with the events and descriptions found in the novel (many of which had already been an established part of canon for years). I believe you would have a much harder case arguing that Bane's power level was more a matter of style rather than the creative vision Drew Karpyshyn had for the story he was telling (bare in mind I'm limiting these points to PoD as I have yet to read DoE and RoT isn't entirely).

The films do not preclude the possibility that there could have existed vastly greater Force Users throughout history than the ones we are presented with in the films and in the face of strong evidence that would suggest as much I don't think it's an entirely inaccurate viewpoint.

In any event I don't think people necessarily disagree that these discrepancies largely are owing to the fact that there are clearly differences in style; for the most part I believe people would consider stuff like TFU to be widely exaggerated but that doesn't prevent them from creating threads with Galen Marek and considering the full scope of what he displayed in those games. I think it's a case where people would rather not limit these hypothetical scenarios by keeping everything consistent with canon and it's not something I necessarily disagree with and would probably have a slightly different opinion if a thread were specifically addressing CW Yoda or DE Sidious or something, but the truth is that there's only really been a universal use of the Yoda character in these forums, and that character will in general terms always be limited by his lower showings in the highest form of canon, and by comparison he does not compare to the higher end combatants. And while his showings in the Eu have been significantly greater they still do not stack up with the kinds of things we've seen performed by other characters in the EU so i wouldn't suggest that his CW cartoon incarnation be included among their number either.

And lastly now you're just speaking in crazy hypotheticals, GL did not possess the creative brilliance and masterful storytelling to create a character as marvelously fabulous as Bane and chances are that if he wanted to put the character in one of his movies, Drew simply wouldn't allow it.

I wouldn't have a hard time at all, actually. Only a moron would subscribe to the outrageously farfetched notion that Force users, on an individual and collective level, spontaneously and without reason dropped multiple levels of magnitude during the events of the six films. Perhaps if virtually all receptacles of Force knowledge vanished alongside the outbreak of a galaxywide midi-chlorian-munching nanovirus which faded away post-Endor.

'Til that retcon comes along, I'm going to stick with the much more reasonable and observed explanation: Stylistic differences.

Originally posted by steveholt956
Krayt had no equals during his time, in both the force or saber combat. Cade is the only one who comes close, maybe Wyyrlok. Still not seeing how Dooku matches up.

So what? In an era with far more powerhouses and the Jedi Order in its golden age, Dooku was on top. Only perhaps Mace Windu could fight him on even ground, and only Yoda and Sidious were his outright superiors, both of whom are Krayt's superiors.

Isn't there a quote with leland chee saying the novel speeds don't contradict the speeds depicted in the films or along those lines? It'd be kind of difficult to show that with the human actors.

Originally posted by steveholt956
Finally, I didn't say I was objective in this case either. I certainly don't care much for the PT era. But at least I don't operate under the guise of objectivity in this thread. That would be you.


No wonder you're making the idiotic claim that Krayt would stomp Dooku. lol


Originally posted by Q99
He's defended against stronger TK than Dooku's


Cade's TK is definitely not stronger than Dooku's. Cade's best TK feat that I'm aware of is throwing a small star ship. It is impressive, but he did so in what seemed to be a fit of rage, similar to how Ventress, in a fit of rage, managed to force choke and levitate Obi Wan and Anakin at the same time.

Majority of Dooku's displayed TK feats were done very casually, such as lifting several huge monoliths simultaneously, collapsing cave ceilings, and then there's this...


_1ieRQ-4BB4



Originally posted by Q99
and can absorb lightning.


Dooku can block and redirect lightning with his hands as well. I'm pretty sure you knew that though.




Originally posted by Q99
As for offense, I will note his Force Drain was highly effective against Abeloth, with is nothing to laugh at.


Dooku and Krayt wouldn't be fighting in some spiritual force imbued world as essences, they'd be fighting in the physical world armed with their sabers, so I doubt he'd rush at Dooku, sticking his hands through him to absorb his energy as he did with Abeloth.

Besides, Dooku was immune to the effects of the dark reaper, which is a force draining device.



Originally posted by Q99
But, Krayt has gone up against people with very high feats and outmatched them


So has Dooku.

BTW, what are you arguing exactly? Are you suggesting that Krayt is far superior to Dooku? Because you said you'd rank Dooku on Wyyrlok's level. And combat-wise, Krayt and Wyyrlok seemed to be fighting pretty evenly, as neither of them could gain an advantage over the other until Wyyrlok put Krayt in a trance.

I'm done with this discussion. They both seem to be about even to me, and a fight between them can go either way, IMO, but there will definitely be no stomping on either side.





Originally posted by The_Tempest
Questioning the caliber of Krayt and Dooku's respective opponents is a legitimate line of inquiry. Both sides have offered pertinent points: both Dooku's Nightsisters and Krayt's Imperial Knights are presently featless. Neither are without some measure of repute: Karis and Naa'leth were endorsed by Talzin as the greatest warriors of the Nightsister clan and the Imperial Knights, as protectors of the galactic sovereign, are likely to be highly trained warriors.


But Ventress has many notable feats, and is an Obi Wan level saber duelist, being among the very best of her era.


Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm more familiar with Dooku's brawl with the Nightsisters than Krayt's slaughter of the Knights, but I'm not instinctively impressed by one over the other: Krayt killed them fairly quickly whereas Dooku's was a more protracted struggle. On the other hand, the Count was not in full command of his faculties whereas Krayt presumably was.


My thoughts exactly. That's why I'm hesitant to put one over the other in sabers.

I'm not claiming that Dooku is stomping Krayt and neither is S66. Krayt does seem to be a scholar and a master of the dark side, moreso than Dooku, and while blocking telekinetic powers which are powerful enough to throw small ships and block explosions are impressive, feat-to-feat, Dooku edges it in my opinion. Collapsing cave ceilings, bringing down metal platforms, levitation of multiple big stones and outright dominance of some of the most powerful Jedi and Sith in his era just seems better than what Krayt has done.

Either way, I doubt that either would end the fight through Force attacks.

The main reason I give it to Dooku is because of his skill with a saber. Holding his own against Yoda and Mace plus defeating Ventress, Grievous, Bulq, Vos, Tholme, Obi-Wan, Anakin etc not to mention his accolades and mastery of Form II seems above what Krayt has done.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I wouldn't have a hard time at all, actually. Only a moron would subscribe to the outrageously farfetched notion that Force users, on an individual and collective level, spontaneously and without reason dropped multiple levels of magnitude during the events of the six films. Perhaps if virtually all receptacles of Force knowledge vanished alongside the outbreak of a galaxywide midi-chlorian-munching nanovirus which faded away post-Endor.

'Til that retcon comes along, I'm going to stick with the much more reasonable and observed explanation: Stylistic differences.

The movies explore a tiny period within a much vaster history of the galaxy, I'm not sure why you're so against the possibility of there being moments where the Jedi and Sith as orders (not what I'm claiming btw) or even select individuals may have reached vastly superior heights to what we were shown in the movies. The movies at the end of the day are simply small sample sizes, it would be silly to just assume that they were truly representative of the entirety of history. The only time we're led to believe that the movies are portraying a particularly (in the truly grand scheme of things) powerful Force User would be Anakin as the Chosen One who can be considered to not have reached anywhere near his full potential, so we have little reason to believe that the movies were necessarily a high point of what Jedi and Sith can do, it's only C-Canon source which might seem to suggest as much which has the exact same authority as the other C-Canon sources that you wish to dismiss.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I wouldn't have a hard time at all, actually. Only a moron would subscribe to the outrageously farfetched notion that Force users, on an individual and collective level, spontaneously and without reason dropped multiple levels of magnitude during the events of the six films. Perhaps if virtually all receptacles of Force knowledge vanished alongside the outbreak of a galaxywide midi-chlorian-munching nanovirus which faded away post-Endor.

You mean like if someone was.... blunting....... their.......... powers? :O


Originally posted by The_Tempest
'Til that retcon comes along, I'm going to stick with the much more reasonable and observed explanation: Stylistic differences.

And how do you suggest we account for that in threads?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Besides, Dooku was immune to the effects of the dark reaper, which is a force draining device.
The situation is not so black and white as you are making it out to be.

Here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Reaper

The Dark Reaper device was never operating at its proper strength during the Clone Wars era; it was broken and shattered with some parts functioning. These parts were still effective to certain degree but Ulic Qel Droma helped Anakin Skywalker to cope with the harvester component for a while.

I am not familiar with how Dooku coped with this device but I assume that it wouldn't be black and white scenario either (since you have a history of misrepresenting information when it suites you).

If the device would have been operating in its full power and form like it did when it was originally constructed, neither Anakin and nor Dooku would have stood a chance against it. They are not "immune" to Force Drain; just know how to defend against it to a certain level.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
ollapsing cave ceilings, bringing down metal platforms, levitation of multiple big stones

None of those involve as much force as the ship feat. The ship is bigger than the stones or platforms, and cave ceilings you only need to disrupt the structure.




And I'd rate Krayt's saber feats as certainly no lower. Even as A'Sharad he wasn't far behind the top (above several on that list), and he's gotten numerous upgrades in both skill and power since then.


There is a lack of Yoda or Mace to test himself against sure, but it seems odd to conclude that one person is weaker because he never meets his match, compared to another person who has met his against powerful foes.


Aside from pure feats, there's simply superior experience as well as being stronger in the force (which gives an advantage in duels) and having force-powers that aid in duels (shatterpoint, which tells one when there's a weakness/opportunity to exploit).

I would like to point out that experienced Force-users can perceive fault-lines in inanimate objects and exploit them at their weakest aspects.

A talented force-user can jam control systems of a starship causing it to go haywire and/or run of-course. The continuous hand gesture doesn't necessarily imply that the Force-user is using his/her whole raw power to perform feats of such a scale.

The word "tricks" are often used for a reason.

Analogy: Vader ruptured a platform from its foundation (a narrow point where it was attached to a bigger structure), causing it to collapse on Starkiller's position. That narrow point was the part of this platform (a weakness) which Vader exploited with his power. The feat on the whole looks way more impressive then it is on technical level.

Dooku also have a similar demonstration.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I would like to point out that experienced Force-users can perceive fault-lines in inanimate objects and exploit them at their weakest aspects.

A talented force-user can jam control systems of a starship causing it to go haywire and/or run of-course. The continuous hand gesture doesn't necessarily imply that the Force-user is using his/her whole raw power to perform feats of such a scale.


The word "tricks" are often used for a reason.


Sure, but in Cade's case, he picked up a wrecked ship out of a swamp and threw it. It certainly wasn't under it's own power, it had no power.

Originally posted by Q99
Sure, but in Cade's case, he picked up a wrecked ship out of a swamp and threw it. It certainly wasn't under it's own power, it had no power.
Well, of-course, not every feat of this nature is a trick in disguise.

Talented Force-users can lift and hurl objects (weighing several tons) with their own power at minimum.

Sometimes, a feat (of small scale) is far more difficult to perform then a feat (of sheer impressive scale).

For example:

Blocking and absorbing Sith lightning with bare hands is a difficult feat for even the most powerful Jedi of the mythos as per canon. This feat might require much more power then lifting a small starship.

Originally posted by Q99
None of those involve as much force as the ship feat. The ship is bigger than the stones or platforms, and cave ceilings you only need to disrupt the structure.
I'd like the proof that the ship is bigger than the stones or platforms because the picture certainly doesn't indicate so.

Does it have a model number?


Originally posted by Q99
And I'd rate Krayt's saber feats as certainly no lower.
Krayt has never beaten anyone of Mace's/Dooku's caliber, has he?

Originally posted by Q99
Even as A'Sharad he wasn't far behind the top (above several on that list), and he's gotten numerous upgrades in both skill and power since then.
I disagree. From the look of it, A'Sharad held his own but ultimately lost his arm to Kenobi. Ventress at least disarmed Kenobi in the CW movie and in Withces of the Mist, Dooku quickly send her on the retreat.


Originally posted by Q99
There is a lack of Yoda or Mace to test himself against sure, but it seems odd to conclude that one person is weaker because he never meets his match, compared to another person who has met his against powerful foes.
I find it odd to conclude that Krayt is more skilled when he's never beaten anyone that indicates so.

Originally posted by Q99
Aside from pure feats, there's simply superior experience as well as being stronger in the force (which gives an advantage in duels) and having force-powers that aid in duels (shatterpoint, which tells one when there's a weakness/opportunity to exploit).
Sure, but Dooku's experience didn't help him against Anakin. Don't see why Krayt's would against Dooku.

I don't see how he is stronger in the force. Dooku's feats seem superior.

Shatterpoint depends on circumstances, and even then, Dooku is portrayed as an equal with Mace who can also use shatterpoint.

He's portrayed as Mace's equal in pure lightsaber combat. That Mace has shatterpoint as well as Vaapad would give him a considerable advantage over Dooku.

He's portrayed as an equal on ''neutral ground''. Never was it noted that it was Mace without Vaapad/shatterpoint.

1. Shatterpoint is not restricted to circumstances. Those who need to learn about this Force ability should read Star Wars: Shatterpoint.

2. On technical level, Dooku might be on par with Mace in dueling aspects. However, Mace would have advantage in a duel to death.

I should probably read Shatterpoint again. It's been quite some time and I'm interested if Mace have some nice Force feats in it.

Shatterpoint is a complex phenomenon. Basically it is a talent which is used to create favorable circumstances for its practitioner in combat situations.

Mace describes shatterpoint:

Situations have shatterpoints, like gems. But those of situations are fluid, ephemeral, appearing for a bare instant, vanishing again to leave no trace of their existence. They are always a function of timing.

There is no such thing as a second chance.

Sometimes, shatterpoints are easy to find and sometimes not. But shatterpoint talent expands possibilities to great degree.

Agreed, but it's overrated in my opinion.

When has it shown to be overrated exactly?

Well, shatterpoint talent comes as a surprise to many opponents. They are often dumbstruck by how the individual (with shatterpoint talent) suddenly outsmarted them. Sidious found himself in similar situation but his Anakin trick worked in his favor.

Shatterpoint can be useful, but it has never been a guaranteed win and we simply can't say that Mace would find a shatterpoint in every duel he fights.

And that's acting as if he'd exploit it.

Of-course, no one is unstoppable. Satele Shan also had shatterpoint abilities but she wasn't unstoppable either.

However, both Mace and Satele did well against Sidious and Malgus respectively; in both cases, Sith Lords were stronger.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You mean like if someone was.... blunting....... their.......... powers? :O




And how do you suggest we account for that in threads?

You'll notice I didn't confine my remarks to just the Jedi at the time. What's more, the only ability that has been identified as weakened by Sidious was Jedi perception; nowhere to my knowledge has their telekinesis, speed, or fighting prowess been noted to be in decline.

Neb's argument stupidly assumes that artistic license and stylistic variance is reflective of an intentional choice by the authorities at LFL to depict the movie era as pedestrian. Yet Lucas has referred to the prequels as the golden age of Jedi combat... This is irreconcilable with the idea that Neb's persistent mantra "lol PT JEDI sux0rz!" in that one can't be simultaneously better than others and worse than others in the same aspect.

Now while I'm not opposed to the idea that other characters rival or surpass movie!characters by dint of prodigious talent or refined skill, these are exceptions - not the rule.

His argument is simply well-worded garbage from start to finish.

And to answer your question, it's always been a matter of feats versus accolades. The dead Project Holocron was a successful attempt to academically examine these variances and should probably be resurrected if we want to pursue this line of inquiry.

Personally, I rank Revan above Dooku despite the latter's greater number of impressive feats. Likewise, I'd rank Maul extremely high despite a fewer number of impressive feats due to the accolades surrounding him. I'm also very generous with the lesser known Council Masters compared to the infinitely more exposed Obi-Wan. Feat-to-feat, Starkiller wastes Vitiate in a fight even though I really don't think he necessarily would. Starkiller's raw might is exceptional, but Vitiate is the heir to a millennium of training and tradition, exploring the Force in ways only surpassed by Sidious.

In theory, LegeND and I agree on looking at "the bigger picture."

In the words of Jack Nicholson, "Why So Serious?"

Reading through your post I don't think we even disagree in that many areas and I'm sure you would genuinely agree that it would be silly to automatically scale down every feat we see in the EU just because you so strongly oppose the idea of the movie era characters being outclassed by select individuals scattered throughout history. I think we can be reasonable and discuss when a particular feat is likely a natural and realistic extension of the narrative, or rather a product of certain stylistic choices or interpretation, and it's not right to simply assume the latter.

I'm also not strongly against the idea of the PT era Jedi necessarily being the best; if you asked for my opinion I personally believe it's more likely that the NSW era Jedi were the most impressive from a combat standpoint but I really don't feel that strongly about it either way. What I do strongly oppose however is the idea that George truly declared the PT Jedi to be the Jedi at the height of their powers and combat prowess and if someone was able to provide the quote (or rather a link to the interview that I believe it comes from) I'd be happy to elaborate.