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http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111116060052/bleach/es/images/a/af/Gin-ichimaru-1835510893.png

vs

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Wind Waker Link gets no love so hey here is a thread just for him. And Gin is bored.

So the fight takes place in New York City on a crowded day. WW Link gets all his stuff while Gin gets his Zanpakuto. Who wins?

Gin.

Gin opens his eyes.

/thread

lol

Gin is a lot faster and stronger than Link. His DC is higher as well

Pretty sure he wins, lol

Gin stomps.

My only thought: Who the hell is Gin?

Only the best troll in shonen manga-dom.

Scream, see his profile here.

Dudes strong enough to cut through multiple city blocks with every swing of his sword, as well as having the strength necessary to actually wield a sword thats 13 km long. He's faster than Link too, so he can and will slice his chibi head off instantly.

So, he's a casually class 100 hypersonic brick with an extendo sword and a tendency to talk too much. That entire scene came off as one bad penis joke.

Looking at that I don't think this is as one sided as you're all making it sound. I've not known Aura to make one sided threads, and he did give Link everything. This includes super dooper volcano freezing arrows, an indestructible shield, an invulnerability spell and a big leaf.

How fast is Gin actually? Any exact numbers?

His sword extends incredibly quickly, enough so that another hypersonic character can't even see it extend and retract. He claims it to be about 500 times the speed of sound. His actual speed is nebulous as the speed of Bleach characters is hotly contested. Regardless, he is very, very fast.

Even if Link has cool equipment he's hopelessly outmatched here.

But he has a leaf...

I don't think he really is 'hopelessly outmatched' here. It's certainly not a fight Link can wade through on brute force, but he needn't rely on it to the same degree his opponent does.

Fighting outside his weight class isn't new to Link, he has the tools to do so. His shield should protect him from the extension of the blade, and he's a pretty tough little guy himself. If we're going to assume Gin opens the fight with a bankai we might as well assume Link opens the fight with his best possible strategy, too, and uses the magic armour. shrug 'Hypersonic' doesn't tell me a great deal, but it sounds well within the realm of WW Link's combat speed. The killing dust ability thing his sword does also should be countered by the Master Sword, forcing him to fight Link more directly.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
But he has a leaf...
^
How does Gin counter gusts of wind? It's hard to sword fight while being buffeted by powerful winds.

Think bankai Ichigo is baseline hypersonic and Gin matches. Shikai hits nearly 100m at about the same speed, bankai is like Ma10+ to go as far as it does in a quick time. Gin has the range and is highly competent in cqc and.. better strength&speed too? That's a lot of advantages to hold.

Tbh, I'm not sure how strong he actually is, I don't read Bleach but the scan I've been shown has him swinging a sword that would weigh approx 16 176.5 Kg, through several buildings all at once. This is fairly easy for him, but it's hard to quantify his true strength based on that alone.

Not sure how fast he moves but Link isn't a speedster so he can have faster, combat speed though, well WW Link can handle Ganondorf, which is pretty intense shit. The mach 10 sword extension shouldn't catch him off guard and his shield is indestructible. He's also very durable and has the magic armour (and Deku Leaf!) to fall back on.

I'm not sure if Gin's evil, the poll implies he is, if he is, I'm confident Link can hurt him. Link's not as mobile but he's very quick to react and has good ranged options. (One does not simply shrug off magic arrows)

Hard to fully quantify pure physical strength in Bleach, though think the strength for his/Ichigo's class is large building? Thats still above throwing room-sized rock heads. Wouldn't be certain that the Shield and Magic Armor could help out all too much unless we know what things it can take. Best thing it can tank?


Gin is.. complicated. He did evil things, betrayed the good guys and maimed many.. but it was all to get closer to the bigbad and eventually kill him. The MS would do more damage, but not to the extent it affects Dorf. On that Gin took a city-block+ shockwave with only a few cuts and bleeds, which is somewhat above the castle dura feat of Dorf's meaning Gin's gonna take less injury from it than Dorf did.

Link will never get close enough to use the master sword, lol.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I don't think he really is 'hopelessly outmatched' here. It's certainly not a fight Link can wade through on brute force, but he needn't rely on it to the same degree his opponent does.

Fighting outside his weight class isn't new to Link, he has the tools to do so. His shield should protect him from the extension of the blade, and he's a pretty tough little guy himself. If we're going to assume Gin opens the fight with a bankai we might as well assume Link opens the fight with his best possible strategy, too, and uses the magic armour. shrug 'Hypersonic' doesn't tell me a great deal, but it sounds well within the realm of WW Link's combat speed. The killing dust ability thing his sword does also should be countered by the Master Sword, forcing him to fight Link more directly.


^
How does Gin counter gusts of wind? It's hard to sword fight while being buffeted by powerful winds.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Tbh, I'm not sure how strong he actually is, I don't read Bleach but the scan I've been shown has him swinging a sword that would weigh approx 16 176.5 Kg, through several buildings all at once. This is fairly easy for him, but it's hard to quantify his true strength based on that alone.

Not sure how fast he moves but Link isn't a speedster so he can have faster, combat speed though, well WW Link can handle Ganondorf, which is pretty intense shit. The mach 10 sword extension shouldn't catch him off guard and his shield is indestructible. He's also very durable and has the magic armour (and Deku Leaf!) to fall back on.

I'm not sure if Gin's evil, the poll implies he is, if he is, I'm confident Link can hurt him. Link's not as mobile but he's very quick to react and has good ranged options. (One does not simply shrug off magic arrows)


True, Link can use the magic armor to survive for a time, but so what? As Nemebro said he's not going to get in range of being able to attack and Gin can flash step away from any arrows or the deku leaf. The wind isn't strong enough to buffet him and even if it does Gin can walk on air so he'll right himself easily.

And even if he does manage to block Gin with his shield once, Gin can easily flash step behind him and hit him again before he can turn around. Link can't keep up with him or block his attacks indefinitely.

And yes, Gin isn't really evil. He's more of a jerk who's secretly a good guy.


As for strength Gin casually blocked Ichigo early on in the manga. This Ichigo was able to block Jidanbō's axe one handed with casual ease. Jidanbō then hit him repeatedly to no effect until Ichigo smashed both his axes with a casual one handed swing. Jidanbō is himself strong enough to create a wall of rock by smashing the ground.

Also the scale of his destructive power should speak for itself.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Link will never get close enough to use the master sword, lol. Why not, exactly?Originally posted by BloodRain
Hard to fully quantify pure physical strength in Bleach, though think the strength for his/Ichigo's class is large building? Thats still above throwing room-sized rock heads. Wouldn't be certain that the Shield and Magic Armor could help out all too much unless we know what things it can take. Best thing it can tank?


Gin is.. complicated. He did evil things, betrayed the good guys and maimed many.. but it was all to get closer to the bigbad and eventually kill him. The MS would do more damage, but not to the extent it affects Dorf. On that Gin took a city-block+ shockwave with only a few cuts and bleeds, which is somewhat above the castle dura feat of Dorf's meaning Gin's gonna take less injury from it than Dorf did. Makes sense, so why not, though I don't think the gap on actual physical strength will be that wide here. shrug

The magic armour isn't in any cutscenes or stuff to my knowledge, so what it can 'tank' is an unknown, like most Zelda invulnerability items, he can't be hurt while it's up in gameplay. Link receives it from a wandering Inuit merchant who says it summons up mystical force to protect your body from harm, and it works during the Ganon fight. So there's that. Link himself is more durable than steel and concrete buildings by mid game, end game isn't really known but he does take a direct shit kicking from Ganondorf without lasting harm. The magic armour should improve on his durability.

Hm. So evil enough? Lel. Also, there's no way to say for certain that the Master Sword works in degrees with it's evil smiting, would it hold back because Gin is less evil? Would it go full on kablamo because evil is evil and **** evil? I'm not sure, but I will say that from what I've seen so far, durability is a wash, since Ganon wasn't actually harmed by the castle bust, and he seems to have the greater damage soak, since he continued speaking with his head impaled. I don't think Gin could do that.

Aren't swords in bleach attached to/made out of their wielders spirit or something? Speculative theory here: Mehbeh MS gets mad and breaks off chunks of it?

Originally posted by Nephthys
True, Link can use the magic armor to survive for a time, but so what? As Nemebro said he's not going to get in range of being able to attack and Gin can flash step away from any arrows or the deku leaf. The wind isn't strong enough to buffet him and even if it does Gin can walk on air so he'll right himself easily.

And even if he does manage to block Gin with his shield once, Gin can easily flash step behind him and hit him again before he can turn around. Link can't keep up with him or block his attacks indefinitely.

And yes, Gin isn't really evil. He's more of a jerk who's secretly a good guy.


As for strength Gin casually blocked Ichigo early on in the manga. This Ichigo was able to block Jidanbō's axe one handed with casual ease. Jidanbō then hit him repeatedly to no effect until Ichigo smashed both his axes with a casual one handed swing. Jidanbō is himself strong enough to create a wall of rock by smashing the ground.

Also the scale of his destructive power should speak for itself.
I don't see why Gin would stay away from Link in a sword fight. Even assuming he goes Bankai right off the bat WW Link has greater reflexes (based on what I've seen and been told thus far) and his magic arrows ain't something to **** with. You can handle a shockwave? All right, neat, how about ice that flash freezes lava and cools the inside of a volcano to habitable levels? To say nothing of a light arrow. The non-magical versions of these things can get through the Cyclos, god of cyclones, cyclone.

I'm not sure why teleportation's a big deal either, it's a common power for Zelda enemies. None of them can counter the Deku Leaf's might.

I have no idea what I'm looking at for destructive power in that last scan. I went back and forward a few times and all I could find of note were the buildings Gin cut in half, what I assume was a getsuga from Ichigo, and more penis jokes. mmm The effect in the sky?

I'm still of the mind that Ganon is an all around tougher enemy. It's just a different set of challenges. Link has versatility and combat speed on his side, Gin seems to have physical might and mobility.

Durability is a wash since they can both hurt each other, if Gin gets stuck full of sword it's gonna hurt because sword, and it's gonna hurt because magic sword. If Link does it's gonna hurt because sword. And I guess also because penis jokes.

Is there something I'm missing?

Link is slower than Gin.

Drop the lightning-timing bullshit you stupid polock.

He won't get close enough to use the sword because Gin's gonna be 8 miles away bitchsmacking him with it like a gigantic, sharp whip.

Also let's not forget Gin has access to Kido. Probably high level as well, at least low 90 level spells.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Link is slower than Gin.

Drop the lightning-timing bullshit you stupid polock.
Stop being a dense ******. <3 Even without that Ganon's hypersonic across the three most recent games he's been in.

Edit:
Originally posted by KingD19
He won't get close enough to use the sword because Gin's gonna be 8 miles away bitchsmacking him with it like a gigantic, sharp whip.
So we are assuming he just bankais right away, and just, I dunno, tries to stay at max range from Link the entire fight? So he's risking magic arrows v.s. risking a shanking. shrug

In most of Gin's fight, he's come out of the gate with his Shikai. Which is apparently equal to 100 times his zanpakuto's original length. And once he started using his Bankai, he had no problem slapping at people from a distance. That's his fighting style because that's how his Zanpakuto works.

But as I said, he also has Kido that Link might not be able to handle. Like sealing spells, barriers, AoE attacks that all do incredible amounts of damage.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Gin stomps.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Stop being a dense ******. <3 Even without that Ganon's hypersonic across the three most recent games he's been in.
A. When?
B. So is Gin.

Originally posted by KingD19
In most of Gin's fight, he's come out of the gate with his Shikai. Which is apparently equal to 100 times his zanpakuto's original length. And once he started using his Bankai, he had no problem slapping at people from a distance. That's his fighting style because that's how his Zanpakuto works.

But as I said, he also has Kido that Link might not be able to handle. Like sealing spells, barriers, AoE attacks that all do incredible amounts of damage. We also see him fight up close as well as at range. I'm not denying he can and will attack at range, I'm just saying, I don't see him playing keep away, and even if he does Link has an answer to it.

Also, Link has high level protection from most spells because of his weapon.
Originally posted by ares834
How? What am I missing here? Someone provide the 'and this is why Gin stomps' scan, please, might save me trouble arguing. So far I have seen nothing that shows Link being chanceless in this fight.


Originally posted by NemeBro
A. When?
B. So is Gin.
What would you call someone who can casually avoid escape velocity arrows capable of piercing big magical diamonds and penetrating the walls of a storm created by a god of storms to strike him at its' center? You know, other than par for the course for a lightning timer.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I don't see why Gin would stay away from Link in a sword fight.

Other than that its his fighting style?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Even assuming he goes Bankai right off the bat WW Link has greater reflexes (based on what I've seen and been told thus far)

I highly doubt it. Bleach characters react to hypersonic attacks millimeters from their eyes all the time.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
and his magic arrows ain't something to **** with. You can handle a shockwave? All right, neat, how about ice that flash freezes lava and cools the inside of a volcano to habitable levels? To say nothing of a light arrow. The non-magical versions of these things can get through the Cyclos, god of cyclones, cyclone.

Gin will just dodge those.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I'm not sure why teleportation's a big deal either, it's a common power for Zelda enemies. None of them can counter the Deku Leaf's might.

Its just an explanation of why none of Links attacks will hit.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I have no idea what I'm looking at for destructive power in that last scan. I went back and forward a few times and all I could find of note were the buildings Gin cut in half, what I assume was a getsuga from Ichigo, and more penis jokes. mmm The effect in the sky?

Yes, that middle panel shows the mere shockwave of Gin's attack extending higher than apartment buildings.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I'm still of the mind that Ganon is an all around tougher enemy. It's just a different set of challenges. Link has versatility and combat speed on his side, Gin seems to have physical might and mobility.

Lol, 'combat speed.'

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Durability is a wash since they can both hurt each other, if Gin gets stuck full of sword it's gonna hurt because sword, and it's gonna hurt because magic sword. If Link does it's gonna hurt because sword. And I guess also because penis jokes.

Is there something I'm missing?

Ok, but as Bloodrain said, Gin has taken city-block busters to the face with only a scratch. And as a shinigami he can take wounds incredibly well (Bleach characters regularly take deep chest wounds, dismemberment etc and keep fighting. They can survive being bisected). One hit won't beat him.

Why is my name intrepid37? Are you cheating on me? Will reply later, it's ungodly hot here so I'm going to go hurl myself bodily into Lake Ontario.

Quick recap. I am not (yet!) claiming Link wins a majority here. I just don't see this as Gin walking through it with ease like so many are claiming, I think Link is being underestimated. He was pretty much created to fight outside his own weight class. shrug All I'm looking for is some acknowledgement that hey, maybe Link makes a fight of it, takes a few wins, or a scan that shows Gin doing something Link just has no way of handling, I guess. mmm

Lol

You've been arguing to much against Intrepid37.

Is WW Link a lightning timer?

The little guy's claim to fame has always been that he's the most durable of all the Links, but I'm not sure he has the same speed. Ganondorf is demonstrably faster than him, and there's precious little else to gauge his speed with.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Why is my name intrepid37? Are you cheating on me? Will reply later, it's ungodly hot here so I'm going to go hurl myself bodily into Lake Ontario.

I'm replying to him at the same time as you.

I'm just too much man for any one debate.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Is WW Link a lightning timer?

The little guy's claim to fame has always been that he's the most durable of all the Links, but I'm not sure he has the same speed. Ganondorf is demonstrably faster than him, and there's precious little else to gauge his speed with.
I really need to go into rehab for KMC. I literally refresh this site before I go out. I'm not claiming WW Link is, but he does handle Ganondorf.

/Leaves for real real.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Makes sense, so why not, though I don't think the gap on actual physical strength will be that wide here. shrug

The magic armour isn't in any cutscenes or stuff to my knowledge, so what it can 'tank' is an unknown, like most Zelda invulnerability items, he can't be hurt while it's up in gameplay. Link receives it from a wandering Inuit merchant who says it summons up mystical force to protect your body from harm, and it works during the Ganon fight. So there's that. Link himself is more durable than steel and concrete buildings by mid game, end game isn't really known but he does take a direct shit kicking from Ganondorf without lasting harm. The magic armour should improve on his durability.

Hm. So evil enough? Lel. Also, there's no way to say for certain that the Master Sword works in degrees with it's evil smiting, would it hold back because Gin is less evil? Would it go full on kablamo because evil is evil and **** evil? I'm not sure, but I will say that from what I've seen so far, durability is a wash, since Ganon wasn't actually harmed by the castle bust, and he seems to have the greater damage soak, since he continued speaking with his head impaled. I don't think Gin could do that.

Aren't swords in bleach attached to/made out of their wielders spirit or something? Speculative theory here: Mehbeh MS gets mad and breaks off chunks of it?
Maybe for a stronger Link, not so much WW iirc. Soo Dorf level resistance? If so then he's taking hits from a guy who at the very best is at OoTGG level, which is still somewhere below Gin's physical strength. Assuming the M.Armor does in fact resist Gin's attacks, by sheer force it wont be close to tanking him.

Not with a sword though the face, no (lol). Still, this is a guy who took an attack a bit above TP's Castle-Busting and only suffered a single small scratch on his head. Equal, maybe. Earrrmmm, ish yes. The blade are spiritual, melded with the uses spirit.. something.. but no matter what has happened, including stabbing a sword though a sword, has ever affected the blades spirit.


Soo from the 'why not' assumptions we've left with..; A guy that's stronger than Dorf's with his durability, with faster attacks and greater range. And this time without Zelda to aid him, wont go down so well. Maybe not one-sided, but in Gin's favour.

I will reiterate that Gin has access to high level Kido. Which are a lot of high end energy attacks that Link doesn't really have an answer to or a way to defend against.

The Master Sword might be able to deal with Kido since it can repel magic.

Gin hasn't really shown any useful Kido either way.

Kido isn't really "magic" in that sense though. It's basically weaponized Reiryoku(Spirit Energy). If it's considered magic and called spells that's more through the use of the incantations to get the desired results, than actual magic.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Gin hasn't really shown any useful Kido either way.

We know that as a Child Prodigy and Captain of the 3rd Squad and one of the most powerful people in the Gotei 13 and the Espada that he knows Kido and more than likely has access to the higher numbered spells.

Even the lower numbers could cause problems for Link.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Other than that its his fighting style?



I highly doubt it. Bleach characters react to hypersonic attacks millimeters from their eyes all the time.



Gin will just dodge those.



Its just an explanation of why none of Links attacks will hit.



Yes, that middle panel shows the mere shockwave of Gin's attack extending higher than apartment buildings.



Lol, 'combat speed.'



Ok, but as Bloodrain said, Gin has taken city-block busters to the face with only a scratch. And as a shinigami he can take wounds incredibly well (Bleach characters regularly take deep chest wounds, dismemberment etc and keep fighting. They can survive being bisected). One hit won't beat him.
In the scans I've seen Gin's fighting style has not been to fight exclusively from the maximum range. It's entirely possible he's an idiot, or that he can't see that well at that range.

Are any of these Bleach characters Gin, or at least shown to have slower combat speed than Gin?


How fast is Bankai Ichigo as of whenever they fought?

Link hit Ganondorf, who going by what I've been shown, is faster.

The buildings nearby are notably intact, and he was at ground level. Impressive in itself, but not huge in terms of destruction. Imho Midna's spear to the dome would hurt moar.

So he has good durability and some damage soak, handy to know, but I still don't think it compares to Ganondorf who was completely unharmed by Midna and can still speak for a few moments after having the Master Sword put directly through his brain.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Maybe for a stronger Link, not so much WW iirc. Soo Dorf level resistance? If so then he's taking hits from a guy who at the very best is at OoTGG level, which is still somewhere below Gin's physical strength. Assuming the M.Armor does in fact resist Gin's attacks, by sheer force it wont be close to tanking him.

Not with a sword though the face, no (lol). Still, this is a guy who took an attack a bit above TP's Castle-Busting and only suffered a single small scratch on his head. Equal, maybe. Earrrmmm, ish yes. The blade are spiritual, melded with the uses spirit.. something.. but no matter what has happened, including stabbing a sword though a sword, has ever affected the blades spirit.


Soo from the 'why not' assumptions we've left with..; A guy that's stronger than Dorf's with his durability, with faster attacks and greater range. And this time without Zelda to aid him, wont go down so well. Maybe not one-sided, but in Gin's favour.
Whoa whoa whoa. I think you're overselling Gin's building cut feat. It's nice and all but a reasonably sharp sword that wouldn't break at that weight could pretty much do what he did under it's own power. The impressive aspect is the ease with which he does it. (And also the great, aching physics butthurt it gives me that he doesn't fall over, air walking be damned.) If you put a sword of similar size in Ganon's hands those buildings would be going down.

I have a dislike for calling 'cutting things in half' '____ level destruction', because it paints a more impressive picture than what's going on. Gin did not completely annihilate them or shatter them, he cut them in half. It takes more force to smash a brick of butter than bisect it with a knife. uhuh If we accept that the magic armour is effective against Ganon, then I see no reason it would not be effective against Gin.

Yeah, Gin took a very powerful attack with little harm, I don't know that it was stronger than Midna's attack, but even so, he was damaged if only slightly, Ganon was completely unscratched. shrug Which makes it hard to truly quantify Ganon's durability and how much the sword can bypass, but leaves me comfortable in saying it could delimb or impale Gin should the blade land there.

So the swords can be damaged by each other? Theoretically Link could lop pieces of it off with the MS?

Gin compared to Ganondorf as Link fought him:
Gin's strength relative to Ganondorf is unknown, either could have cut those buildings up.
He has 'similar' durability, I'm leaning to less since Ganon shrugged that shit off and we don't know how much it takes to damage him, with significantly less damage soak.
Ganondorf's lightning time combat speed, and able to easily avoid all of OoT/WW Link's arrows or block them and can teleport just like Gin can.
Gin has much greater range because of his Boner Sword, and has more mobility than Link does, but he doesn't want to be hit with a magic arrow, and it's seeming likely the Master Sword will allow Link to chop up pieces of his zanpakuto (sp?)

Gin compared to WW Link:
Gin is stronger physically, but Link has defenses like his shield, sword, and the magic armour, and the gap doesn't seem all that wide.
Link's weapon is more deadly and forces a direct confrontation, can likely chop up pieces of Gin's weapon.
Gin is far more mobile, and can likely dodge most of Link's ranged attacks (I doubt all)
Durability is Gin's, but it doesn't really matter since the MS should overcome that.

So advantages are:

Gin: Strength, mobility/movement speed, range.

WW Link: Weaponry, versatility (defenses, magic), and seemingly combat speed.

He also has the Deku Leaf.

Durability's moot, Gin can hurt Link and Link's sword can hurt Gin, but Link has the magic armour and shield so he's scoring more defensive points.

This is my current assessment of things. If you have moar Gin scans and you can get him a solid combat speed advantage I'd cede he probably takes majority.

Originally posted by KingD19
We know that as a Child Prodigy and Captain of the 3rd Squad and one of the most powerful people in the Gotei 13 and the Espada that he knows Kido and more than likely has access to the higher numbered spells.

Even the lower numbers could cause problems for Link. I see no reason the Master Sword would treat it any differently, it's encountered multiple types of magic before. Imho 'spirit energy' is similar enough sounding for it to count. Is there any in universe distinction made?

And before anyone gets on my case I haven't claimed Link wins yet. uhuh

Between spirit energy and magic? There is no distinction because there is no magic. It's a person's inner spiritual energy/power that allows them to do everything in that universe. From Flash Step to Kido to powering your zanpakuto Shikai or Bankai release to making people pass out from the enormous nature of your power level.

It's essentially the same thing as Ki from Dragonball/Z and Spirit Energy from Yu-Yu-Hakusho.

So the Master Sword reacting to the spells is an iffy thing, since they aren't magic. They're directed spiritual energy altered to have different effects.

Originally posted by KingD19
Between spirit energy and magic? There is no distinction because there is no magic. It's a person's inner spiritual energy/power that allows them to do everything in that universe. From Flash Step to Kido to powering your zanpakuto Shikai or Bankai release to making people pass out from the enormous nature of your power level.

It's essentially the same thing as Ki from Dragonball/Z and Spirit Energy from Yu-Yu-Hakusho.

So the Master Sword reacting to the spells is an iffy thing, since they aren't magic. They're directed spiritual energy altered to have different effects. The sword has absorbed souls and spirits before, lol. It was actually 'forged' in the soul of the Hero, apparently.

Well if all else fails, Gin's Bankai could possibly make it past all Link's defenses. You can't block against dust.

Unless you have a leaf.

Originally posted by KingD19
Between spirit energy and magic? There is no distinction because there is no magic. It's a person's inner spiritual energy/power that allows them to do everything in that universe. From Flash Step to Kido to powering your zanpakuto Shikai or Bankai release to making people pass out from the enormous nature of your power level.

It's essentially the same thing as Ki from Dragonball/Z and Spirit Energy from Yu-Yu-Hakusho.

So the Master Sword reacting to the spells is an iffy thing, since they aren't magic. They're directed spiritual energy altered to have different effects.

The Master Sword should be able to protect Link against most of Gin's Kido...

But then he doesn't need Kido to waste Link.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Unless you have a leaf.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me5a7bA2Qw1qljt4ro1_250.gif

MOST SHOCKING TWIST YET!

Might take longer than 0.08 seconds for Link to switch from his sword to a leaf. He'll have been caught by then.

Well he smacked some magic balls around, so he's obviously fast enough to switch in 0.07 seconds.

A fyi, the length and speed of the bankai isn't what he said it was, much less. However that 0.08 comes from the full extension, which wouldn't happen here.

Its certainly incredibly fast and long, just maybe not 13 kilometers and 500 x the speed of sound. He admitted to lying to Aizen about it, but whether he told Aizen the same numbers he did Ichigo is unknown.

True.. though with max concentration Ichi could just barely dodge it, and no way is he MHS.

Originally posted by KingD19
Well if all else fails, Gin's Bankai could possibly make it past all Link's defenses. You can't block against dust.
If I read the OBD profile correctly, this is one of his spiritual abilities, the master sword should protect him from its' effects, or even repel the dust from reaching him.
Originally posted by ares834
The Master Sword should be able to protect Link against most of Gin's Kido...

But then he doesn't need Kido to waste Link.
You keep saying this, explain it to me, what is Gin's secret weapon which he holds over Link, disallowing Link from beating him once out of ten times?
Originally posted by Nephthys
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me5a7bA2Qw1qljt4ro1_250.gif

MOST SHOCKING TWIST YET!
What did I tell you about the ****ing Deku Leaf? No one pays attention. estahuh

Gin can telekinetically control said dust.

You'd need to prove that gust of wind is better than control sufficient enough to extend at hypersonic speeds and cut multiple city blocks in half.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
You keep saying this, explain it to me, what is Gin's secret weapon which he holds over Link, disallowing Link from beating him once out of ten times?

The secret weapon is that no-one except you buys Link being fast enough to contend with him, having a chance of blocking his sword or engaging him at all without the protection of magic armor.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The secret weapon is that no-one except you buys Link being fast enough to contend with him, having a chance of blocking his sword or engaging him at all without the protection of magic armor. Owned paste.

Been forever since I've since I've read Bleach, having stopped somewhere around Fullbring, but I'm pretty sure everything is SpiritEnergy in that 'verse. The swords, the magic, Gin's body, etc. are all made if the same stuff.

In any case, I do believe Link can hang with Gin physically for at least a little while. It's the speed that's the problem. Unfortunately for Link, Ganondorf pretty clearly outspeeds him, and in the Ganon Gets Serious portion of the final battle battle Link is unable to touch him at all, even given Zelda's assistance. It was 2 on 1 and Ganondorf still danced around them until they managed a pretty clever trick to make him stop loldodging. So I think the the strength/durability gap is not insurmountable, but the speed gap is a bit big.

...That is, unless the fact that Wind Waker Link and Phantom Hourglass Link are the same person means anything. In THAT case, the little guy has access to a Time Stop. So, there's that.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Been forever since I've since I've read Bleach, having stopped somewhere around Fullbring, but I'm pretty sure everything is SpiritEnergy in that 'verse. The swords, the magic, Gin's body, etc. are all made if the same stuff.

In any case, I do believe Link can hang with Gin physically for at least a little while. It's the speed that's the problem. Unfortunately for Link, Ganondorf pretty clearly outspeeds him, and in the Ganon Gets Serious portion of the final battle battle Link is unable to touch him at all, even given Zelda's assistance. It was 2 on 1 and Ganondorf still danced around them until they managed a pretty clever trick to make him stop loldodging. So I think the the strength/durability gap is not insurmountable, but the speed gap is a bit big.

...That is, unless the fact that Wind Waker Link and Phantom Hourglass Link are the same person means anything. In THAT case, the little guy has access to a Time Stop. So, there's that.
Hm. Well we know the sword can handle spirits and ghosts and also absorb souls, so should be fine, imho. Think it'll be able to deal break up pieces of Gin's weapon?

Yeah, Ganondorf is definitely faster, we get a cutscene of him beating Link up that shows it as well, but given Ganondorf's record I'm not too put off by that. Link and Zelda did still win. Link while certainly not the quicker fighter between the two can't be too so far behind him as to have been totally helpless, imho, which means he should be fine speed wise when it comes to Gin. The problem is we're low on 'concrete' numbers for WW Link.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
WW Link gets all his stuff while Gin gets his Zanpakuto. Who wins?
^Maybe?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Gin can telekinetically control said dust.

You'd need to prove that gust of wind is better than control sufficient enough to extend at hypersonic speeds and cut multiple city blocks in half.
Wasn't the blade solid when he did that? I was under the impression this was a feat for his extendo sword and strength.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Hm. Well we know the sword can handle spirits and ghosts and also absorb souls, so should be fine, imho. Think it'll be able to deal break up pieces of Gin's weapon?

Well, a zanpakuto is basically Ghirahim, so maybe. I recall some weapons have been broken, so it isn't impossible. Damage probably won't be permanent, though.

It is amusing that paste just cowers around scenario.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It is amusing that paste just cowers around scenario. What's really amusing is you zipping from thread to thread to nip at my ankles, Quan. Get off my nuts. Hm?

Its amusing that you're still stalking :T
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Whoa whoa whoa. I think you're overselling Gin's building cut feat. It's nice and all but a reasonably sharp sword that wouldn't break at that weight could pretty much do what he did under it's own power. The impressive aspect is the ease with which he does it. (And also the great, aching physics butthurt it gives me that he doesn't fall over, air walking be damned.) If you put a sword of similar size in Ganon's hands those buildings would be going down.
I have a dislike for calling 'cutting things in half' '____ level destruction', because it paints a more impressive picture than what's going on. Gin did not completely annihilate them or shatter them, he cut them in half. It takes more force to smash a brick of butter than bisect it with a knife. uhuh If we accept that the magic armour is effective against Ganon, then I see no reason it would not be effective against Gin.
Yeah, Gin took a very powerful attack with little harm, I don't know that it was stronger than Midna's attack, but even so, he was damaged if only slightly, Ganon was completely unscratched. shrug Which makes it hard to truly quantify Ganon's durability and how much the sword can bypass, but leaves me comfortable in saying it could delimb or impale Gin should the blade land there.
So the swords can be damaged by each other? Theoretically Link could lop pieces of it off with the MS?

Gin compared to Ganondorf as Link fought him:
Gin's strength relative to Ganondorf is unknown, either could have cut those buildings up.
He has 'similar' durability, I'm leaning to less since Ganon shrugged that shit off and we don't know how much it takes to damage him, with significantly less damage soak.
Ganondorf's lightning time combat speed, and able to easily avoid all of OoT/WW Link's arrows or block them and can teleport just like Gin can.
Gin has much greater range because of his Boner Sword, and has more mobility than Link does, but he doesn't want to be hit with a magic arrow, and it's seeming likely the Master Sword will allow Link to chop up pieces of his zanpakuto (sp?)

Gin compared to WW Link:
Gin is stronger physically, but Link has defenses like his shield, sword, and the magic armour, and the gap doesn't seem all that wide.
Link's weapon is more deadly and forces a direct confrontation, can likely chop up pieces of Gin's weapon.
Gin is far more mobile, and can likely dodge most of Link's ranged attacks (I doubt all)
Durability is Gin's, but it doesn't really matter since the MS should overcome that.

So advantages are:
Gin: Strength, mobility/movement speed, range.
WW Link: Weaponry, versatility (defenses, magic), and seemingly combat speed.
He also has the Deku Leaf.
Durability's moot, Gin can hurt Link and Link's sword can hurt Gin, but Link has the magic armour and shield so he's scoring more defensive points.
This is my current assessment of things. If you have moar Gin scans and you can get him a solid combat speed advantage I'd cede he probably takes majority. Not just the slashing, but the strength thats needed. No concrete numbers, but the giant in Nephs scans was lifting a ~400 ton gate. Ichigo casually blocked him with Shikai strength, he's stronger with Bankai. Even with this strength he was barely blocking Gin's strikes. By scaling GG would be between Shikai and Bankai.

Ichigo's strength is still below the destructive force of his BladeBeams. Knowing that GG=e9 and Midna=e10, Ichigo's attack would be between these two with his blasts passing Midna's. Sure Gin didn't 100% tank it, but only taking minor damage is close enough to Dorf.

Only due to Ichigo's spiritual connection to his sword being highly sub-standard at that moment. No longer happened once he had a chat with it.




Mostly agree with the summing up comparisons there. Gin's strength is above Dorf's making a change in that and to how much the M.Armor (and Shield?) can take, also being Ma10 is enough speed to evade any of Link's ranged attacks. If the MS hits Gin it'll be as fatal as Gin's hitting Link, so I wouldnt give Link an advantage in weaponry.

The only want to defeat Gin is to have the speed to keep up with his range, then fight him in cqc. Link's place here comes down to two things;
-If his M.Armor can save him from Gin's attacks, the strength difference would't mean much.
-If Dorf has lightning speed, Link's reactions can keep up with Gin's assault and get in close.

This leads to three 'What If' outcomes;
-If both apply then Gin's strength, use of range and speed would be rendered moot, meaning he'd have to work hard to damage Link while Link only needs a few direct hits which is possible with his speed.
-If only one of these, then Link would be a challenge but could still be either danced around (If M.Armor only) or taken out quickly (If Lightning reactions only).
-If none apply, then Gin's strength, range and speed would overwhelm WWLink.

What feat puts Bankai Ichigo that far removed from a 400 ton feat? That is a freaking huge leap, man. haermm

I have a feeling we're gonna need to compare notes again. mmm Can you show me how destructive the getsuga Gin was hit with actually was? With an example from that fight or one before it? I'm under the impression this is one of those mangas where the protagonist constantly improves in power, so I'm not sure later showings would be admissible on this. If I'm wrong and power is consistent though, correct me.


When does he show this?



So to simplify:
If both apply WW Link wins.
If only one Gin wins, but it's a fight.
If neither, Gin stomps.
If Link properly utilizes the Deku Leaf he stomps.

We agree here?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
What feat puts Bankai Ichigo that far removed from a 400 ton feat? That is a freaking huge leap, man. haermm As Shikai he 'cannot' match Captain Petals, in the same way the giant can't match him. Ichigo covers this strength with Bankai. Will have to look for other feats, but so far this is only to match or beat Dorf's strength. The result won't be too far off either way.

Giants strength < Shikai < Post-training Shikai < Bankai < Gin.

(J-wise the Giant uses around e8 J to GG's at most e9)


Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I have a feeling we're gonna need to compare notes again. mmm Can you show me how destructive the getsuga Gin was hit with actually was? With an example from that fight or one before it? I'm under the impression this is one of those mangas where the protagonist constantly improves in power, so I'm not sure later showings would be admissible on this. If I'm wrong and power is consistent though, correct me. The protag gets stronger but we don't really see any feat on his bankai power later on (later on he uses his Hollow/demon powers in unison, so we dont see as much). We know that his pre-bankai training made him dominate lieutenants which are >> Giant.

This is his greatest post-training Shikai Getsuga, was calced and just hit City-Block level, so somewhere below Midna's. Bankai would be above (can't find the feat calcs, but The guy who made this crater would make for a good comparison for Bankai!Ichigo), meaning what Gin took was above Midna.

This is the one Gin took

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
So to simplify:
If both apply WW Link wins.
If only one Gin wins, but it's a fight.
If neither, Gin stomps.
If Link properly utilizes the Deku Leaf he stomps.

We agree here?
...you and your Leaf lol

Yes, depending on those What-Ifs these would be the outcomes.

Where does the idea that Ganondorf has lightning time reaction speeds come from?

http://oi39.tinypic.com/2rorrc2.jpg

Originally posted by ares834
Where does the idea that Ganondorf has lightning time reaction speeds come from?
Ocarina of time and aLttP, mainly.
Then I think we can pretty much wrap this up.

Link stomps with the Deku leaf.

dancesuperm

Scream, ones power grows by between 5 to 10 times when they activate Bankai. Its logical that Ichigo would be at least a bit stronger in Bankai than in Shikai.

Originally posted by ares834
Where does the idea that Ganondorf has lightning time reaction speeds come from?

UK5tjyp8nEc

Scream believes that the balls at 2.10 are lightning and thus lightning speed. This would put Link and Ganon as lightning-timers for playing ping pong with them.

^ Ah... Yeah, I don't buy that. Seem to be just be magic blasts to me.

Originally posted by BloodRain
http://oi39.tinypic.com/2rorrc2.jpg

Shouldn't have brought it up?

Ok, fair enough.

Still, not sure why it would be relevant. Even if Ganon with the ToP has impressive reaction speed, that doesn't translate to WW Link.

Link only held his own against Dorf that was not wielding the ToP (When he did have it Dorf beat the shit out of Link). And Dorf does not seem to have the same reaction speed if he is not wielding the ToP.

Yes I also don't even remotely buy it.

I've argued with Scream about it extensively. Very, very, very extensively. Which is why Bloodrain is trying to distract us from this controversial discussion.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Scream, ones power grows by between 5 to 10 times when they activate Bankai. Its logical that Ichigo would be at least a bit stronger in Bankai than in Shikai.



UK5tjyp8nEc

Scream believes that the balls at 2.10 are lightning and thus lightning speed. This would put Link and Ganon as lightning-timers for playing ping pong with them.
You want to do this again? You left out the official art, the consistent use of lightning by Ganon, that even before he gets the ToP his blasts move faster than the player can see in a cutscene without being lightning, that OoT Link deals with consistent lightning from multiple enemies across two games, that both Ganon and Link have shown supehuman combat speed to be parts of their powerset, etc, etc.
http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo141/ShinTwist_ScreamPaste/looklikelightningtoyou.jpg~original
Everything about this attack is designed to yell lightning, which we know has been part of Ganon's powerset since 1991. It crackles when it hits things, creates electrical effects and even takes the form of bolts.

Nintendo would not commission art of something Link cannot do.

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo141/ShinTwist_ScreamPaste/LinkBattlingAghanim.jpg~original

I don't see how what's happening there can be denied.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
You want to do this again?

Nope. Link still isn't a lightning-timer though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which is why Bloodrain is trying to distract us from this controversial discussion. HE'S SEEN THROUGH MY TRICKERY! PLAN B A GO-GO!

http://www.arwrath.com/content/7/74882.gif

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nope. Link still isn't a lightning-timer though.
You must want to do it again because you came here specifically to argue about it. So tell me, coherently, what your counter argument is to Link and Ganondorf playing tennis with lightning bolts?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
You must want to do it again because you came here specifically to argue about it.

I came here specifically to tell ares why you're laboring under the delusion that Ganon's a lightning-timer. Not to play this game with you again.

I'm confused. Are you saying you believe electrical discharges to be legit lightning?

Just because a guy can shoot electricity doesn't mean it travels at lightning strike speeds.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I came here specifically to tell ares why you're laboring under the delusion that Ganon's a lightning-timer. Not to play this game with you again.
The only game is your denial without any ability to construct a coherent counter argument.

Your argument was what? 'Real lightning isn't yellow'. They changed that in the remake, just for you I assume. You know, ignoring Artistic License and that Yellow Lightning is so common most people just assume electricity is yellow because Pokemon.

'it moves slow in gameplay'. Well no shit, the player has to deflect it. Real humans can't react at 0.00001 of a second or whatever it is.

If you don't want to argue it, don't tote your opinion around like a fact.

Originally posted by KingD19
I'm confused. Are you saying you believe electrical discharges to be legit lightning?

Just because a guy can shoot electricity doesn't mean it travels at lightning strike speeds.
It does when Ganon has shown in multiple games he can do exactly this, the attack is scripted to crackle and behave like electricity and takes the form of a lightning bolt before he throws it, and that even his non-lightning magic moves faster than the eye can track in cutscenes.

Scream, what reaction speed feats does WW Link have that suggest he can hold his own against Gin?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
The only game is your denial without any ability to construct a coherent counter argument.

Your argument was what? 'Real lightning isn't yellow'. They changed that in the remake, just for you I assume. You know, ignoring Artistic License and that Yellow Lightning is so common most people just assume electricity is yellow because Pokemon.

'it moves slow in gameplay'. Well no shit, the player has to deflect it. Real humans can't react at 0.00001 of a second or whatever it is.

If you don't want to argue it, don't tote your opinion around like a fact.

I believe that I have constructed many, many arguments over the years.

I don't recall saying that. Although it does sound like something I would say.

Well if it was then surely they could show any indication of speed to allow the player to understand that they are that fast.

Do you seriously want to start this again? I don't, but you sure seem to have a bee up your crack about it. I'm up for humoring you if you want, just don't have a screaming (lol) hissy fit and rage quit like you did last time.

Gonna point out that Ichigo could barely hang with Gin's attacks, and this is a much evolved Ichigo from the one that was effortlessly swatting away Byakuya's Senbonzakura attack, which is pretty much millions of fast moving microscopic blades attacking all at once from different directions.

And there's no way to prove it was legit lightning. If there is one, prove it I say.

Its clearly just magic. Even if its magical lightning that doesn't mean that its as fast as real lightning. The master sword is even said to repel magic, not lightning. Its magic.

And even if it is real lightning, its ball lightning. Which is not as fast as a lightning strike.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I believe that I have constructed many, many arguments over the years.

I don't recall saying that. Although it does sound like something I would say.

Well if it was then surely they could show any indication of speed to allow the player to understand that they are that fast.

Do you seriously want to start this again? I don't, but you sure seem to have a bee up your crack about it. I'm up for humoring you if you want, just don't have a screaming (lol) hissy fit and rage quit like you did last time.
Go ahead, repeat one coherent counter argument to it. Because I can't remember a single one.

Yes, I have a bee up my crack about you loafing around claiming things you cannot support as if it is fact.
Originally posted by KingD19
Gonna point out that Ichigo could barely hang with Gin's attacks, and this is a much evolved Ichigo from the one that was effortlessly swatting away Byakuya's Senbonzakura attack, which is pretty much millions of fast moving microscopic blades attacking all at once from different directions.

And there's no way to prove it was legit lightning. If there is one, prove it I say.
It's represented as lightning during the fight, Ganon's got full speed lightning as part of his power set and we have official art of Link intercepting Lightning with his sword. This isn't hard stuff.

My efforts were in vain.. so I dance.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5p7mh1Snt1rwcc6bo1_250.gif

Originally posted by BloodRain
My efforts were in vain.. so I dance.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5p7mh1Snt1rwcc6bo1_250.gif
It's all right, BR. We managed to find an agreement before this happened, so at least the thread came to a conclusion beforehand this time, right?

..wait, what?







Well shit, must have missed that O.o Yeah sure, jump on that tangent point then :T

Dunno what you're so worked up about BR. The lightning reacting feat was bound to come up.

I'll take Neph and Scream arguing over something that actually matters over Quan and Scream's desire to **** each other being present in every thread.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Dunno what you're so worked up about BR. The lightning reacting feat was bound to come up.

I'll take Neph and Scream arguing over something that actually matters over Quan and Scream's desire to **** each other being present in every thread.
Hey, at least I don't follow him into unrelated threads to cheerlead. That guy can't get enough of me. haermm

Yeah thats starting to get a tad creepy .__.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Dunno what you're so worked up about BR. The lightning reacting feat was bound to come up.

I'll take Neph and Scream arguing over something that actually matters over Quan and Scream's desire to **** each other being present in every thread. One shitstorm may be better than another, but none is better than any.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Hey, at least I don't follow him into unrelated threads to cheerlead. That guy can't get enough of me. haermm

Well yes. You're the giver. You need some semblance of a cool off time.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Yeah thats starting to get a tad creepy .__.

One shitstorm may be better than another, but none is better than any.

It makes for amusement. And could lead to feats being discredited/strengthened/dismissed/discovered/whatever.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Hey, at least I don't follow him into unrelated threads to cheerlead. That guy can't get enough of me. haermm

Which is unfortunate since I'm trying to Kismesis with him.

But I guess I can settle for Moirallegence. Not going to Auspistize you two, though.

http://ct.fra.bz/ol/fz/sw/i51/5/8/23/frabz-Prepare-Yourself-A-Shitstorm-is-brewing-5b7bcc.jpg


Originally posted by ScreamPaste
You want to do this again? You left out the official art,

I'll get to that.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
the consistent use of lightning by Ganon,

You mean Agahnim, right? Or was this where you claim that Ganon creating a storm means he can throw around lightning as well?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
that even before he gets the ToP his blasts move faster than the player can see in a cutscene without being lightning,

We 'can't see it' because the camera cuts away to Link being hit. Actually thats wrong, we can see it.

1_EC-Ci5pvs

You can clearly see the attack move towards the camera. 'Faster than the player can see'? I can just fine. Maybe you should be the one wearing glasses lmao.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
that OoT Link deals with consistent lightning from multiple enemies across two games,

Then it should be easy for you to show him reacting to lightning, then shouldn't it?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
that both Ganon and Link have shown supehuman combat speed to be parts of their powerset, etc, etc.

Really? I'd put both of them at about peak human myself. Arrow-blocking speed at most.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo141/ShinTwist_ScreamPaste/looklikelightningtoyou.jpg~original
Everything about this attack is designed to yell lightning, which we know has been part of Ganon's powerset since 1991. It crackles when it hits things, creates electrical effects and even takes the form of bolts.

It looks like magic to me. Magic crackles too in many works of fiction. And their are many examples of attacks that look like lightning but don't have the same properties. As I said, the master sword is known to repel magic, not lightning.

Even then, electricity does not always move at lightning speeds in fiction. Cole's attacks in Infamous don't move lightning fast. Nor do the actual lightning bolts Azula can shoot. Unless you think Zuko is a lightning-timer. I could probably keep listing examples of 'lightning' in fiction, but I hope you're smart enough to get the point.

As King said, unless you have actual evidence of lightning-speed, there is no possible way you can prove its legit lightning.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Nintendo would not commission art of something Link cannot do.

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo141/ShinTwist_ScreamPaste/LinkBattlingAghanim.jpg~original

I don't see how what's happening there can be denied.

Firstly that's Aghanim, not Ganon and secondly, that isn't lightning. You ever seen lightning turn mid-stream into blue fire? Or sparkling? Or is this just a particularly fabulous bolt?

Its magic. Thats all I need to say really. The fact that all these so-called lightning attacks are magical in nature should end this discussion. Magic is by definition, unnatural and does not follow the rules of physics.


Originally posted by ScreamPaste
It does when Ganon has shown in multiple games he can do exactly this, the attack is scripted to crackle and behave like electricity and takes the form of a lightning bolt before he throws it, and that even his non-lightning magic moves faster than the eye can track in cutscenes.

P.S. None of that contradicts what he actually said. Maybe you should try proving that electricity must mean lightning-speeds before you spout off some irrelevant gibberish.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Which is unfortunate since I'm trying to Kismesis with him.

But I guess I can settle for Moirallegence. Not going to Auspistize you two, though.
Brb thesaurus and dictionary.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
It makes for amusement. And could lead to feats being discredited/strengthened/dismissed/discovered/whatever. You've been here for 3.5 years, how many times has that happened in your time here?

Its almost like cycling in Limbo.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Which is unfortunate since I'm trying to Kismesis with him.

But I guess I can settle for Moirallegence. Not going to Auspistize you two, though.

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/317/a/9/rails_before_pails_by_shae_luvs_xei163-d4g3eep.jpg

Originally posted by ares834
Where does the idea that Ganondorf has lightning time reaction speeds come from? Pastes fanboyism which ignores all other attacks hitting and beating him while pretending he is.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
What's really amusing is you zipping from thread to thread to nip at my ankles, Quan. Get off my nuts. Hm? He owns you. You cower. Amusing.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
We get a flash and then Link is sent flying.

Um, we see the ball fly forward at 1:58... It even fills the majority of the screen.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Yeah thats starting to get a tad creepy .__.

Originally posted by ares834
Um, we see the ball fly forward at 1:58... It even fills the majority of the screen. He just makes stuff up. No one takes him seriously.

Why are you here? haermm

Originally posted by BloodRain
Why are you here? haermm
To make me look good by spreading negativity about me, I guess.

Bad publicity from the forum clown means I must be doing something right.

First you get BT, now this.. you ****

Originally posted by BloodRain
First you get BT, now this.. you ****
I can't help myself, I go where I must, fighting evil as it arises! I am why you should not let Nintendo raise your childen. mmm

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
To make me look good by spreading negativity about me, I guess.

Bad publicity from the forum clown means I must be doing something right. Keep ignoring Ares questions. You do this all the time. You and your its lighting forget about all the rest. He's got magical resistance while Link is a peer to Hulk in terms of strength. Thy name is paste, lord of the clowns.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Keep ignoring Ares questions. You do this all the time. You and your its lighting forget about all the rest. He's got magical resistance while Link is a peer to Hulk in terms of strength. Thy name is paste, lord of the clowns.
All evidence points to lightning.

Ganon does have magical resistance.

I never claimed Link was a peer to the Hulk, so here's where your blatant lies begin.

You done riding my meat, little guy?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
All evidence points to lightning.

Ganon does have magical resistance.

I never claimed Link was a peer to the Hulk, so here's where your blatant lies begin.

You done riding my meat, little guy? When does he use anything remotely close to lightning type quick attacks.


Not against being bfr'd since he has been bfr'd.


Class 100 tonners tend to be his peers.


You're pathetic and avoided his questions. Pathetic.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Keep ignoring Ares questions. You do this all the time. You and your its lighting forget about all the rest. He's got magical resistance while Link is a peer to Hulk in terms of strength. Thy name is paste, lord of the clowns.




Did...did you just call someone out for ignoring questions?

Is that really a thing that just happened?

http://emotibot.net/pix/4453.jpg

Originally posted by The Scenario
Did...did you just call someone out for ignoring questions?

Is that really a thing that just happened?

http://emotibot.net/pix/4453.jpg I know you don't understand. Real problem of yours.


I don't ignore relevant questions ever.

aLttP, OoT, FSA.

He passed through a portal. Lol.

Collossus is class 100, Thing is class 100, these are not his peers.

Questions about things addressed in my post to Neph. Should I bounce you on my knee?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
aLttP, OoT, FSA.

He passed through a portal. Lol.

Collossus is class 100, Thing is class 100, these are not his peers.

Questions about things addressed in my post to Neph. Should I bounce you on my knee? Alternate timelines equal alternate Dorfs.

Bfr'd. Unable to resist.

Fae can bfr or open a portal and then force him through.



Class 100's are but he greatly exceeds them. You think link is a peer. Awful.

No but seriously Quan why are you here?

You have nothing to contribute and you're really just bashing Scream for no reason in particular.

..maybe you two are using a difference version of Class 100?

Originally posted by AuraAngel
No but seriously Quan why are you here?

You have nothing to contribute and you're really just bashing Scream for no reason in particular. I am debating and poking holes at his claims.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I am debating and poking holes at his claims. You came in when this was only about Gin.. you don't know Gin.. or WW Link.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I don't ignore relevant questions ever.

I'm going to take this quote.

And hang it on my wall.

Just to, I don't know. Look at. It will be my trophy.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I am debating and poking holes at his claims.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Owned paste.
Originally posted by quanchi112
It is amusing that paste just cowers around scenario.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Pastes fanboyism which ignores all other attacks hitting and beating him while pretending he is. Originally posted by quanchi112
He owns you. You cower. Amusing.
Originally posted by quanchi112
He just makes stuff up. No one takes him seriously.

Such wonderful debating.

No-one cares about my roll-call.

So Ganon.

It didn't even look like that when I watched it with the 3D on on the 3DS. Looks like a flash to me.


Read what I said.
"that OoT Link deals with consistent lightning from multiple enemies across two games,"
Goht and Barinade ring any bells? Ganondorf himself? It should be noted Phantom Ganon, who actually does use something that is not lightning has none of Ganondorf's lightning animations or graphics tied to his fight. Those were made exclusively for Ganondorf himself.

IE, in universe distinction between regular magical blasts and lightning blasts.


... You're trying really hard to ignore what the game is rendering here.


I didn't think I missed any. You've basically turned this into multiple different ways for you to say

"This isn't lightning. That isn't. That either! They all just /look/ like lightning and use all the tell tale signs of electrocution."



e9KZOChSxvU
2:07. Like, y'know, lightning.



u wot m8. No, this is not my opinion, it's very clear what it 'resembles'. You don't accidentally make lightning bolt graphics. Further more this can be said about any feat. Oh, it's only my opinion that Dante's weapon, Rebellion, looks like a big sword. It's actually a styrofoam wifflebat. See how effective that line of reasoning is? Not very.

What does it resemble to you, then? Because all I can see there is lightning.

I'm interested in this too. Tell us what you think the artist rendered in this image. Explain why, using this image, you think that what Agahnim is or isn't what you say it is.

What you don't seem to get is there is a very real difference between electrical discharge/projected electricity and actual lightning striking from the sky.

Even if he is blasting magic lightning or electricity, that doesn't mean it's at real deal lightning speeds.

Do you understand? You can't just say it's lightning speed when you can't prove it.

Originally posted by KingD19
Even if he is blasting magic lightning or electricity, that doesn't mean it's at real deal lightning speeds.

Do you understand? You can't just say it's lightning speed when you can't prove it.
I understand perfectly, what you're missing is the bit where we already know Ganon's lightning is full speed. We can plainly see what it's represented as in aLttP and OoT, and OoT gives us Link and Ganon playing tennis with it. For it to be slower would now require Ganon to slow it down on purpose.

You can't ignore the feat without disproving it. Because evidence supports it. You need evidence now to debunk it. Understand?

Thats actually true, so..

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I understand perfectly, what you're missing is the bit where we already know Ganon's lightning is full speed.

Thats never been proven.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats never been proven. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=e9KZOChSxvU

That didn't look as fast as lightning to me.

Also it was flashing green, orange and purple for some reason. mmm

Lightning huh. Its some weird shit.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=e9KZOChSxvU

That's not even remotely as fast as lightning.

Heck, if anything that battle hurts your argument more then helps it because the magic balls that can be reflected are clearly different from the electric attack.

Originally posted by ares834
That's not even remotely as fast as lightning.

Heck, if anything that battle hurts your argument more then helps it because the magic balls that can be reflected are clearly different from the electric attack.
Because he charges it? It still only takes 1 frame for it to travel across the entire screen. It's not there then it is.

I don't see how this hurts my argument, either, since I didn't claim Link did deflect it in that fight. The fight where it all comes together is the one in OoT. When Link doesn't have to deflect it, it behaves like full speed lightning.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Because he charges it? It still only takes 1 frame for it to travel across the entire screen. It's not there then it is.

A blatant lie.

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16267913_Capture1.JPG http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16267914_lightning2.JPG http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16267915_lightning3.JPG http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16267916_lightning4.JPG http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16267917_lightning5.JPG

And this is merely from me clicking start and stop. I'm undoubtedly missing some frames.

So yeah, way slower than real lightning.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I don't see how this hurts my argument, either, since I didn't claim Link did deflect it in that fight. The fight where it all comes together is the one in OoT. When Link doesn't have to deflect it, it behaves like full speed lightning.

Because he uses an attack that looks and acts in a similar method to Ganondorf's supposed "lightning". And that attack is completely different from the electric attack.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
So Ganon.

No, Ganon possessing Anagrams body. It isn't the same thing.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
It didn't even look like that when I watched it with the 3D on on the 3DS. Looks like a flash to me.

Not to me and ares. Why would there be a flash anyway? Is Ganon's hand just flashing? There isn't a flash whenever else he uses a magic attack.

Either way, its too ambiguous to prove either way. It relies completely on the viewers interpretation. Thus it cannot be used as evidence.


Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Read what I said.
"that OoT Link deals with consistent lightning from multiple enemies across two games,"
Goht and Barinade ring any bells? Ganondorf himself? It should be noted Phantom Ganon, who actually does use something that is not lightning has none of Ganondorf's lightning animations or graphics tied to his fight. Those were made exclusively for Ganondorf himself.

IE, in universe distinction between regular magical blasts and lightning blasts.

Goht's 'lightning' is green. And floats around its body in black clouds. Obviously not lightning.

Barinade uses static electricity of some sort that shoots out of it in slow moving columns and there isn't a point where Link has to react to it.

Ganon never uses actual lightning.


Originally posted by ScreamPaste
... You're trying really hard to ignore what the game is rendering here.

I'm trying really hard to explain the difference between magic and lightning to you, yes.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I didn't think I missed any. You've basically turned this into multiple different ways for you to say

"This isn't lightning. That isn't. That either! They all just /look/ like lightning and use all the tell tale signs of electrocution."

I'm only saying it so many times because you keep posting examples that aren't actually lightning.

But you ignored how I pointed out that lightning rarely moves at its full speed in fiction. You've yet to prove why it is that this attack must be as fast as a real lightning strike. All you have ever said it 'this looks like lightning' without ever proving why it must follow on that its as fast as you say.

Cole uses lightning all the time, yet it isn't as fast as real lightning.

Azula throws actual lightning bolts around, which clearly are not actual lightning-speed.

Sasuke spams lightning jutsu constantly, yet its contrasted in the story with actual lightning as being vastly inferior in speed.

Etc etc.

As King said:

What you don't seem to get is there is a very real difference between electrical discharge/projected electricity and actual lightning striking from the sky.

Even if he is blasting magic lightning or electricity, that doesn't mean it's at real deal lightning speeds.

Do you understand? You can't just say it's lightning speed when you can't prove it.'


Originally posted by ScreamPaste
e9KZOChSxvU
2:07. Like, y'know, lightning.

Oh mai gawd, like, this totally isn't lightning either. It, like, isn't even that fast and like, it totally flshes green, orange and purple. Totally magic.


Originally posted by ScreamPaste
u wot m8. No, this is not my opinion, it's very clear what it 'resembles'. You don't accidentally make lightning bolt graphics. Further more this can be said about any feat. Oh, it's only my opinion that Dante's weapon, Rebellion, looks like a big sword. It's actually a styrofoam wifflebat. See how effective that line of reasoning is? Not very.

Indeed, it very clearly resembles a magical spell of some sort and thats exactly what it is. It does not resemble a bolt of lightning. Its. F*cking. Sparkling. The colors are way off. Its covered in some black cloud of some sort. Its resembles fire at some points. Its obviously not lightning.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
What does it resemble to you, then? Because all I can see there is lightning.

It looks like some crazy ass magical spell.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I'm interested in this too. Tell us what you think the artist rendered in this image. Explain why, using this image, you think that what Agahnim is or isn't what you say it is.

No-one is replying to this when they should be. Lightning doesn't sparkle people. Inform Scream of his lunacy so we can smother him with popular opinion!

Originally posted by ares834
A blatant lie.

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16267913_Capture1.JPG http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16267914_lightning2.JPG http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16267915_lightning3.JPG http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16267916_lightning4.JPG http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16267917_lightning5.JPG

And this is merely from me clicking start and stop. I'm undoubtedly missing some frames.

So yeah, way slower than real lightning.



Because he uses an attack that looks and acts in a similar method to Ganondorf's supposed "lightning". And that attack is completely different from the electric attack.
Huh, all right, it takes more than one frame. I didn't catch that watching it. To me it just looked like flashing lightning in different shapes.

Regardless, what's being rendered here is still fairly obvious.

Uhm, wat? Just gonna ignore Ganon's own word on this, huh?

Even discounting this it's just tertiary. We still have art of Link doing it, it being in Ganon's powerset, and no counter to them playing tennis with it in OoT.


Goht's is ambigous, Barinade and Ganondorf's are not. Ganondorf's gets an in game distinction between itself and similarly functioning magic.


Except what we're looking at is magic lightning. Which Ganon creates, y'know, with his magic.



You have not once proven they are not lightning. If it looks like lightning it's what? Fish?



Cole specifically uses special attacks with lightning that behave in specific, non-arching-electricity ways.

I don't even know who Azula is

and we don't have anything in Zelda that shows Ganon's lightning as inferior to naturally occuring lightning.

So of your three examples out of this huuuuge phenomenon in fiction (lel) only one of these can't be easily accounted for off the top of my head, because I don't know who Azula is.

Not once is Ganon's lightning shown as being inferior in universe.

It came out of his hands, of course it is magic, but to sum up your argument:

"ZOMG IT FLASHES"

Uhm, yeah, lightning attack flashes.


The only thing it resembles IS a bolt of lightning. It's sparking, it's bright, and I guess the presence of dark clouds means there is no ****ing way lightning could be nearby.

One to produce lightning, yes? Which is what we see, arching all over the place, giving off heat and light?

Even if someone disagrees with me on Link's reaction time, it takes a special brand of lunacy to not see lightning in that image. haermm

All right, Neph, let's attempt a little exercise since our main point of conflict seems to be you just cannot see lightning in Ganon's attacks.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ahN97-eUuJE/T4xFKDUNisI/AAAAAAAAABM/VQDpRn7-DYQ/s200/rating-color-red-1eo2bqn.jpeg

Prove to me that this is red.

How about no?

Originally posted by Nephthys
How about no?
How about yes. This is the bare bones of our conflict right here.

I see lightning in one picture, you see red in another. In one of them you argue that there is no lightning. We're essentially at the point where we're arguing what we see. We're basically at the point of something called qualia.

Prove the square is red.

Edit: Yes, I am technically aware that red can be proven to exist on the electromagnetic spectrum. But this is way simpler and more appropriate.

No the bare bones of our conflict is that you thinking 'Ok, so its magical lightning, and while magic by definition is unnatural and in many cases behaves strangely, I'm going to erroneously believe that magical lightning possesses the same natural properties as naturally-occuring lightning.'

The only time when we're disagreeing that it resembles lightning is in that last picture. Which doesn't look like lightning in the first place. Everything else I've said is magical lightning or possibly ball lightning in that OoT Ganon fight.

So then you're agreeing it does resemble lightning in aLttP and OoT?



See, this doesn't compute to me, the first time I saw it my mind was like "hey, that's Link, Agahnim, and lightning." I just can't see anything else there.


There's no instance of it behaving strangely here and it demonstrates the properties of actual lightning. It forks and arcs and electrocutes and it's hot and it's bright.

You're assigning attributes to it that are not apparent.

So Gin wins?

Originally posted by KingD19
So Gin wins?
Regarding Link's reaction time and the magic armour:

If both apply WW Link wins.
If only one Gin wins, but it's a fight.
If neither, Gin stomps.
If Link properly utilizes the Deku Leaf he stomps.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
So then you're agreeing it does resemble lightning in aLttP and OoT?

I've said where I agree it looks like lightning, except obviously with magical properties like being green.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
See, this doesn't compute to me, the first time I saw it my mind was like "hey, that's Link, Agahnim, and lightning." I just can't see anything else there.

Its 3 different colors. And its got those bizarre sparkles. You call those sparks? They're giant sparkles. And it definately looks like fire at where it meets the floor. Also lightning wouldn't impact like that.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
There's no instance of it behaving strangely here and it demonstrates the properties of actual lightning. It forks and arcs and electrocutes and it's hot and it's bright.

You're assigning attributes to it that are not apparent.

I actually spluttered when I read this. You are the one assigning it attributes that are not apparent! I.E its ****ing speed. It magical lightning. You have to prove that its as fast as actual lightning. You can't just assume that it has it. Its magic, you can't assume anything. It doesn't move at lightning-speeds in the game. If we're really going by whats apparent, thats as apparent as it gets.

And what about when its shaped like a goddamn ball? You still act as if its as fast as a lightning bolt despite it actually resembling ball lightning.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I've said where I agree it looks like lightning, except obviously with magical properties like being green.



Its 3 different colors. And its got those bizarre sparkles. You call those sparks? They're giant sparkles. And it definately looks like fire at where it meets the floor. Also lightning wouldn't impact like that.



I actually spluttered when I read this. You are the one assigning it attributes that are not apparent! I.E its ****ing speed. It magical lightning. You have to prove that its as fast as actual lightning. You can't just assume that it has it. Its magic, you can't assume anything. It doesn't move at lightning-speeds in the game. If we're really going by whats apparent, thats as apparent as it gets.

And what about when its shaped like a goddamn ball? You still act as if its as fast as a lightning bolt despite it actually resembling ball lightning.
Then your tune has changed, you've outright denied several times that these instances even were lightning.

They certainly don't resemble glitter. Yes, it sets the floor on fire, because lightning is hot.

Wait, what? You're the one assigning attributes to it not inherent to lightning while discussing lightning. Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck. It's a duck. "It's magic so it's different" not only doesn't hold up if you can't support it, it actually ceases to make sense at all when you realize you're essentially arguing Ganondorf magically engineered slow lightning just to **** himself over. You do see the problem there, right?

And the only time it takes ball form is when the player has to deflect it, in gameplay. Do you want little sideways Z's flying across the screen?

Except, he isn't slowing it down. It's magical lightning its properties don't have to be the same as real lightning and therefore move as fast. It's the same way with Force Lightning from Star Wars or lightning in Avatar: TLA/Korra.

Originally posted by ares834
Except, he isn't slowing it down. It's magical lightning its properties don't have to be the same as real lightning and therefore move as fast. It's the same way with Force Lightning from Star Wars or lightning in Avatar: TLA/Korra.
It's properties don't have to be different, either, and nothing shows that they are. Not to mention Ganondorf is not a Jedi or a bender, he's a reality warper who legitimately gets new powers as the plot demands. The idea he can bring about eternal night while severely weakened and he can't even conjure proper working electricity at full power is at best poorly thought out. To me this seems very clear cut:

The developers specifically gave him unique, lightning animations.

Also, since when is force lightning slow? Is this some EU thing I don't know about? And is it made clear in universe, or is it just an assumption?

Jedi can block and dodge force lightning after its been fired as seen many times and they aren't close to lightning-timers.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Then your tune has changed, you've outright denied several times that these instances even were lightning.

They certainly don't resemble glitter. Yes, it sets the floor on fire, because lightning is hot.

Wait, what? You're the one assigning attributes to it not inherent to lightning while discussing lightning. Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck. It's a duck. "It's magic so it's different" not only doesn't hold up if you can't support it, it actually ceases to make sense at all when you realize you're essentially arguing Ganondorf magically engineered slow lightning just to **** himself over. You do see the problem there, right?

And the only time it takes ball form is when the player has to deflect it, in gameplay. Do you want little sideways Z's flying across the screen?

Magic lightning isn't lightning. Its magic. Its not made out of electrostatic discharge, its made out of magic.

It certainly does resemble glitter. No shit, except the fire is the exactly same color as the 'lightning' and is connected to it as well. You can see in the middle that it melts the floor, not set it on fire. Floor tiles don't set on fire anyway.

As I said, it isn't real lightning, its magic. If its a magical duck, its not an actual duck and need not have the exact same attributes. I don't need to support it, you're the one claiming its as fast as lightning without any proof, you need to support it. You're assuming that he has a superior alternative and is handicapping himself. He isn't slowing it down on purpose, its simply what he can produce. The same as Force Lightning or Avatar lightning as ares said.

That wasn't the question. Is it a lightning bolt or ball lightning? Which one does it demonstrate the properties of actually being? Because its a ball when I look at it so I know which one it more closely resembles to me!

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
It's properties don't have to be different

They don't have to be anything. As I said, with magic you can't assume anything since its an inherently illogical phenomena. So they don't have to be the same either.

Prove this plz.


You realize that the fire would be similar in temperature to the lightning causing it since they were still touching and would thus be similar in colour, yes? Not that it even matters in this picture since we're looking at the work of someone with an art degree, not a physics degree,'s rendition of lightning.

Also, inb4 you claim that's a magic floor made of magic because it's on fire.

Nope nope nope. Henceforth I'll be using 'magical' to prevent this kind of word play. Ganon isn't a green lantern. The things he creates are real, not constructs. This can be seen in his minions.


I'm not the one claiming that the attack behaves contradictory to what's expected from lightning. And yes, intentionally producing slow lightning to fight the only enemy left on the planet who can oppose him would be handicapping himself.

You're arguing he can create thunderstorms that cover the entirety of the Great Sea, but not a single bolt of lightning. haermm Ganondorf is capable of creating lightning, we've seen this in aLttP and Oot. In fact he's capable of feats of magic far in excess of this.

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo141/ShinTwist_ScreamPaste/looklikelightningtoyou.jpg~original

^Interesting, this looks like forked lightning to me.

1. High showings happen. IIRC apparently Obi Wan has some stupid mach 30t58235120491205491rjewgw3j feat or something.
2. Never seen that happen? I've always attributed that to their precog.
3. So no in universe distinction has been made?

What was the verdict on Avatar lighting and Sasuke's Kirin? No way in hell are these verses lightning times, but these two are cases with manipulating nature, both cloud to ground if including the once Iroh and Zuko caught, so a tad confused (again).

I get the feeling Anime/Manga v.s. and Comic v.s. Have different ways of handling outlying feats within their similar media formats. mmm

In AotC Obi-Wan blocks Dooku's lightning after he fires it by raising his lightsaber and Dooku blocks Yoda throwing his own lightning back at him with his hand. Both move after the attacks already started. In Swtor the Consular leaps aside to dodge a bolt after its been thrown and in Dynasty of Evil an untrained Force user dodges Darth Banes lightning again after its been thrown. And that wouldn't be a high showing. They'd be thousands of times faster than they are anywhere else. Plus the movies are consistently low in terms of showings.

What I don't get is how you got in two post before I got in my Q to Neph mhmm

Heck if I know what rulings are taken anymore. My jobs just to lead back and wait for a result.

Edit: And now three, dammit..

This much I'm aware of, the SW EU always rubbed me the wrong way partially because of this. Death Star? SUNCRUSHER!

Urg, that all sounds effing wierd to me. I'm off to pursue scans, excerpts and generally drown myself in geekdom.