The Legendary SSJ

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ShadeSlayer15
Lets start the convo my friends... The first LSSJ exploded, Could we guess what his power level would have been to explode like that.

juggerman
Over 9,000

ShadeSlayer15
Over 9000 that aint shit, so how would that explode him?

ichigo12
Originally posted by juggerman
Over 9,000

LOL laughing

ShadeSlayer15
Originally posted by ichigo12
LOL laughing That's what I thought too wink

ichigo12
Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
That's what I thought too wink

Do you know what he meaned with that right?

ShadeSlayer15
I hope he means 900,000,000? but then again that is hi but 9000 is low

Based
This forum has a lot more patience than I thought.

ichigo12
Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
I hope he means 900,000,000? but then again that is hi but 9000 is low

Lol, it was a reference to Vegeta's famous quote when he and Nappa first encountered Goku I think. Nappa asked Vegeta what was Goku's power level, and then Vegeta took off his visor and while crushing it in rage he shouted "It's over 9000!!!"
I think it is famous because it was hilarous. It even become a meme.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiMHTK15Pik

ShadeSlayer15
Hahaha that's awesome when you press 6 over and over again lol, but why is that funny the way they react to it because that's hi for that era in the series lol....


ITTTTSSSS OVEEERRRRR 9999999 THOUUUUSANDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

juggerman
Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
Hahaha that's awesome when you press 6 over and over again lol, but why is that funny the way they react to it because that's hi for that era in the series lol....


ITTTTSSSS OVEEERRRRR 9999999 THOUUUUSANDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

It's funny because Vegeta, up until that point, was very calm and even a bit playful. He never expected Goku, who had such trouble with Raditz's pitiful PL, to come back and surpass an elite like Nappa.

ShadeSlayer15
lol I wish radditz would have joined the z fighters

Ragnosfan1998
In the billions obviously.....

Galan007
Impossible to say.

We know the first LSSJ could only maintain that status while in his ape form. We know he allegedly had no equal in the universe(1,000 years before the Frieza saga, that is.) We know that he destroyed himself, as well as the planet he was on, when he destructed.

It's hard to gather much at all from that.

Astner
Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
I hope he means 900,000,000? but then again that is hi but 9000 is low
Well, since Gohan learned to become a Super Saiyan in the Time Chamber it's only reasonable to assume that Broly would be around Cell's level of power.

V-Jump put his power level at 1.4 billion, so 900 million doesn't seem too far off.

http://i.imgur.com/HT8k9BK.png

Galan007
The V-Jump PL's were way off, though.

The V-Jump guide put final form Cooler's PL at 470,000,000, despite the fact that he was utterly shit-stomped by n00b SSJ Goku(who was so n00bish that he could barely transform into a SSJ at all.) The Daizenshuu, which is the most canon PL guide in existence, only has n00b SSJ Goku's PL at 150,000,000.

But even if we entirely disregard the Daizehshuu, and assume that n00b SSJ Goku's PL was 500,000,000(which is a logical approximation based on how effortlessly he beat Cooler), then it gives him a PL of 1 billion as a SSJ2, and 4 billion as a SSJ3(based on canon SSJ multipliers.) Obviously those numbers would be on the extreme low-end, as we know that Goku's PL as a standard SSJ increased astronomically before he ascended into higher levels.

Anyway, the V-Jump guide only put Gogeta's PL at 2.5 billion-- yet we know he was far, FAR stronger than Janemba, who was far, FAR stronger than SSJ3 Goku(whose PL, again, would have been no less than 4 billion if the V-Jump guide is to be trusted.)

Imo it's clear that Cooler's PL was very overinflated in that guide, while Gogeta's PL was very underinflated. That said, who knows where Broly's PL really stood..? /shrug

ShadeSlayer15
The power levels from the Daizenshuu 7 are official power levels published in 1996 by Akira himself and approved by him, so you have to go by this and this alone no if ands or buts about it... it was also republished in 2009 in the Super Exciting Guide, If your power levels are coming from anywere els I don't belive or hear it sorry.

its states that Son Goku SSJ On namek was 150,000,000 So whats that tell you?

I mean to say not official Akiri made but still most reliable

ROTJ Vader
The V Jump levels really are way off. For example they have Piccolo Daimao>Tenshinhan which is obviously wrong going by the fact Tenshinhan was stated at the 23rd Budokai to be beating a verson of Goku stronger then he was 3years before.

They also have Piccolo at 3500 with Nappa at 4000. Which makes no sense seeing as how Nappa pwned Piccolo who had help from Gohan/Krillin. They also have Goku over 2X Nappas PL which makes no sense.

They also have Radditz at 1500 wereas he was clearly stated to rival a Saibamen. A fairer PL for Radditz would be around 1250-1300.

Gogeta being at 2.5bil also makes no sense ether seeing as how he defeated Janemba who was far above SSJ3 Goku.

Many more errors such as SSJ3 Goku Vs Janemba being at only 2.5bill. Goku would obviously be far above that based of the Cell/Android Sagas.

As for Brolys PL?. Obviously impossible to give a exact number. Somewhere in the large billions obviously.

AsbestosFlaygon
Despite claims that LSSJ is the supposedly the strongest Saiyan-level, no matter which way you look at it, Broly was beaten by 3 SSJ2s in the movie canon.

Logically speaking, that means SSJ3 Goku is far superior to LSSJ, since SSJ3 Goku would effortlessly kill the same 3 SSJ2s (yes, I know Goku is one of the 3 but I'm comparing his power level @ SSJ2 to SSJ3).
And that does not even include Mystic Gohan and Vegetto, both of which are far, far stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

ShadeSlayer15
I actually agree with that legendary ssj was ment to be the strongest ssj but goku and team found higher levels witch make the Lssj shit in reality

juggerman
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
Despite claims that LSSJ is the supposedly the strongest Saiyan-level, no matter which way you look at it, Broly was beaten by 3 SSJ2s in the movie canon.

Logically speaking, that means SSJ3 Goku is far superior to LSSJ, since SSJ3 Goku would effortlessly kill the same 3 SSJ2s (yes, I know Goku is one of the 3 but I'm comparing his power level @ SSJ2 to SSJ3).
And that does not even include Mystic Gohan and Vegetto, both of which are far, far stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

The LSSJ kept rising in power. Eventually he would have surpassed SS3 and all others. He didn't live long enough for this to happen tho so it had the potential to be the greatest but it didn't reach it.

ShadeSlayer15
**** THAT BULL SHIT

Based
Broly ain't the Hulk. He can get mad, sure but it'll take him like years of getting pissed off to reach SSJ3 levels. And of course we can't assume that a variant of the no limits fallacy does not apply.

It's not feasible which makes LLSJ the best only at a theoretical level.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
**** THAT BULL SHIT

Oh would you stop dissing other people's opinions? Really, Jugs here is hardly the only one who has had this theory.

Originally posted by Based
Broly ain't the Hulk. He can get mad, sure but it'll take him like years of getting pissed off to reach SSJ3 levels. And of course we can't assume that a variant of the no limits fallacy does not apply.

It's not feasible which makes LLSJ the best only at a theoretical level.

I think it is dependant on who Broly is facing. His power level literally doubles a few times during the initial fight with Goku, and kept on inexplicably increasing without reason or logic since then. Even the Zenkai couldn't do that, since the only injury Broly sustained nwas the blow to the abdomen by the Justice Fist.

ShadeSlayer15
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Oh would you stop dissing other people's opinions? Really, Jugs here is hardly the only one who has had this theory.



I think it is dependant on who Broly is facing. His power level literally doubles a few times during the initial fight with Goku, and kept on inexplicably increasing without reason or logic since then. Even the Zenkai couldn't do that, since the only injury Broly sustained nwas the blow to the abdomen by the Justice Fist. I aint bashing it just sayin that its bull shit is all cuz no facts to really support in fully and Dragon fist? So don't get so but hurt

Goku begins the attack by making a straight fist faced at his enemy, then once his fist, along with his own body, exits the stomach or chest of the target, the energy will explode out into the form of an enormous golden dragon which bears a great resemblance to Shenron and then finally collides into the target, possibly destroying the opponent in its path or leaving a gaping hole, hence the name "Dragon Fist".

juggerman
Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
I aint bashing it just sayin that its bull shit is all cuz no facts to really support in fully

Sure you are but that's ok as you aren't the only one that does this here. And yes the facts are there if you actually look. Hell Darkstorm Zero even spelled it out to you:

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I think it is dependant on who Broly is facing. His power level literally DOUBLES a few times during the initial fight with Goku, and kept on INEXPLICABLY INCREASING without reason or logic since then. Even the Zenkai couldn't do that, since the only injury Broly sustained nwas the blow to the abdomen by the Justice Fist.

Eventually he would have surpassed all others. Unless of course the power was too much for his body to handle and he blew up like the previous LSSJ

juggerman
Basically the LSSJ is the most power Saiyan form but Broly is not the most powerful Saiyan. Just because stronger Saiyans surpassed his power doesn't mean their forms are actually more powerful. If you don't agree just look at Gotenks' SSJ form. It was greater than or equal to Goku's SSJ3 form. Does that mean that all SSJ1 = SSJ3 now?

Another example is Vegeto's SSJ1 being vastly superior to Gotenks' SSJ3. Is SSJ1 now stronger than all SSJ3 now?

ShadeSlayer15
not that is not a good example because it is a fusion so their ssj form would double on top on the increase in powr

juggerman
Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
not that is not a good example because it is a fusion so their ssj form would double on top on the increase in powr

It is since their SSJ1 was stronger that superior forms of other Saiyans. The transformation itself is basically a multiplier so it'll multiply their power no matter how strong they are. Base Gotenks was already stronger than Base Goku so when his power is multiplied he would get a much higher boost than Goku. But the general principle is the same.

If someone stronger than Broly, say end of saga Gohan, had the LSSJ form then it would likely shit on everybody including Vegetto. While Vegetto's power would indeed start off stronger, Gohan's would constantly double and double and double again.

Galan007
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
Broly was beaten by 3 SSJ2s in the movie canon. When?

In the first movie he was beaten by SSJ Goku /w/ the added energies of Trunks+Vegeta+Gohan+Piccolo, who were all weakened at the time. In Second Coming, he was beaten by teen SSJ2 Gohan, who was weaker than he was during the Cell/Bojack era+Goku(presumably SSJ2)+SSJ Goten... And I don't even remember what happened in Bio-Broly, because frankly, that movie was a steaming pile of shit.

By all accounts Broly is around Cell-level, which means his PL would have to increase roughly 4x over to reach SSJ3 levels.

juggerman
Originally posted by Galan007
When?

In the first movie he was beaten by SSJ Goku /w/ the added energies of Trunks+Vegeta+Gohan+Piccolo, who were all weakened at the time. In Second Coming, he was beaten by teen SSJ2 Gohan, who was weaker than he was during the Cell/Bojack era+Goku(presumably SSJ2)+SSJ Goten... And I don't even remember what happened in Bio-Broly, because frankly, that movie was a steaming pile of shit.

By all accounts Broly is around Cell-level, which means his PL would have to increase roughly 4x over to reach SSJ3 levels.

In 2nd Coming he was pushed into the sun by Gohan, Goten and Goku. He was also blocked somehow by Trunks. It looked as tho he was actually stronger than the three of them which shows to go ya how much his power jumped since the 1st movie.

Bio Broly was asscheeks and should never ever be mentioned again. EVER!

ShadeSlayer15
but your theory about the lssj in just that a theory

juggerman
Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
but your theory about the lssj in just that a theory

Sure, if you want ignore little things like facts and evidence of course

ShadeSlayer15
Their is no facts just speculative evidence is all so tech its not even a theory yet just a hypothiseis

juggerman
Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
Their is no facts just speculative evidence is all so tech its not even a theory yet just a hypothiseis

Cuz Broly's power just increasing never happened in the movie you saw?

ShadeSlayer15
ya but maybe that's just broly or you could look at it this way maybe he stays in the same form but still can assend or maybe his base power as a lssj in just massive dose not mean he does not have limits

Galan007
If you base your opinion of Broly's power on feats and logical power-scaling, then he's around Cell-level as far was what he's displayed. And given than Buu-era SSJ2 Goku was almost certainly more powerful than Cell-era SSJ2 Gohan, it means Broly's power would have to increase by more than 4x in order to match SSJ3 Goku(as a SSJ3 is 4x>SSJ2.)

So even if we're assuming that Broly can powerup infinitely(which is a huge no-limits fallacy), it'd still take him a VERY long time to reach SSJ3 levels.

NemeBro
Broly destroyed a galaxy, a feat unmatched by any other character in the setting.

Therefore, we can assume that Broly is more powerful than every character in the setting combined.

Vensai
Broly is somewhere between a SSJ and SSJ2.

Galan007
Originally posted by NemeBro
Broly destroyed a galaxy, a feat unmatched by any other character in the setting.

Therefore, we can assume that Broly is more powerful than every character in the setting combined. Not sure if srs?

Vensai
Originally posted by NemeBro
Broly destroyed a galaxy, a feat unmatched by any other character in the setting.

Therefore, we can assume that Broly is more powerful than every character in the setting combined.
Really...

NemeBro
Originally posted by Galan007
Not sure if srs? Broly is not a canon character, therefore powerscaling is useless. Feats are all that matters.

Broly's feats are millions of times greater than any other character's.

juggerman
Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
ya but maybe that's just broly or you could look at it this way maybe he stays in the same form but still can assend or maybe his base power as a lssj in just massive dose not mean he does not have limits

It is just Broly. That's the point. Only he has access to that form since only he is the Saiyan of Legend.

He can go SSJ1 and has. Meaning it's likely he can potetionally access SSJ2 and 3 like any other Saiyan can. Difference is his LSSJ is all he needs. His power boosted AFTER he was already in this form which shows us that his power still climbs. It's as clear as day

Galan007
Originally posted by NemeBro
Broly is not a canon character, therefore powerscaling is useless. Feats are all that matters.

Broly's feats are millions of times greater than any other character's. He didn't destroy that galaxy, though. Heck most of movie #8 takes place in the galaxy that Broly supposedly destroyed. none

NemeBro
Originally posted by Galan007
He didn't destroy that galaxy, though. Heck most of movie #8 takes place in the galaxy that Broly supposedly destroyed. none We can only assume that Broly also has the power to resurrect the planets he destroys, if not create matter from nothing in general.

Based
Originally posted by NemeBro
Broly is not a canon character, therefore powerscaling is useless. Feats are all that matters.

Broly's feats are millions of times greater than any other character's.

Yeah not because they can't do it because no ones that moronic to actually do it.

NemeBro
You can't show me a canon character blowing up so much as a star, much less a galaxy.

Galan007
Originally posted by NemeBro
We can only assume that Broly also has the power to resurrect the planets he destroys, if not create matter from nothing in general. laughing out loud

Okay, it clicked now. thumb up

NemeBro
I do not understand.

Based
Originally posted by NemeBro
You can't show me a canon character blowing up so much as a star, much less a galaxy.

You can't even show Broly destroying a galaxy either...

ShadeSlayer15
Originally posted by NemeBro
We can only assume that Broly also has the power to resurrect the planets he destroys, if not create matter from nothing in general. Are you ****ing kidding me, No one in Dbz does that create matter other than swords and what not out of ki, your are kinda dumb if you belive he can do that, your not a very good dbz go watch OP and get of this dbz thread cuz your so wrong its funny

carver9
He's being sarcastic and Broly did destroy a galaxy. It was stated in the movie. Only fragments was still left after his destruction blast.

Based
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-HjqOsL1_M
Watch at 2:20 the freaking planet is left intact by DBZ standards. He went to planet by planet and went on a rampage. Saiyan arc Nappa could fvcking do that. It would take a lot longer but he could do that...

carver9
Originally posted by Based
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-HjqOsL1_M
Watch at 2:20 the freaking planet is left intact by DBZ standards. He went to planet by planet and went on a rampage. Saiyan arc Nappa could fvcking do that. It would take a lot longer but he could do that...

Never stated he went planet by planet. Dont know where you came up with that idea.

BloodRain
If planets were left whole, the galaxy was not one-shotted. We see several planets standing with the sky full of stars.

In Jap it says the galaxy is under attack, Kai saying its being destroyed.

Based
Originally posted by carver9
Never stated he went planet by planet. Dont know where you came up with that idea.

And how do you suggest he'll ravage buildings but leave the rest of the planet intact?

If he used an energy blast then the planet would have been wiped out. He did not galaxy bust this shit needs to end.

Galan007
Originally posted by carver9
He's being sarcastic and Broly did destroy a galaxy. It was stated in the movie. Only fragments was still left after his destruction blast.
The galaxy was not destroyed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-ZYa0Wnw88

There were still multiple planet intact, as well as hundreds of stars still visible(we saw this while Goku was IT'ing through the south galaxy on his way to New Vegeta.) Additionally, Broly never transformed into his LSSJ form until he fought the Z fighters on New Vegeta-- so if you believe he actually destroyed the south galaxy in its entirety, then you must also believe he destroyed the galaxy in his restrained/false-SSJ form:
http://dbzgt77.weebly.com/uploads/2/5/1/8/2518914/4261369_orig.jpg
And given that Goku was matching restrained Broly as a base-level Saiyan, I'm sure you can understand my hesitation in assuming that restrained Broly was powerful enough to galaxy-bust-- as that would mean Goku was capable of doing so as a base Saiyan. No way.

Heck even Jesus-Cell, with his SSJ2-esque power, only theorized that he could destroy the solar system. Restrained Broly/base-level Goku>>>>Jesus-Cell, iyo? none

BloodRain
Same vid I used.. wouldn't this be the same as planet busting without affecting any buildings?

carver9
During the beginning of the Broly saga, we clearly see the Galaxy diminishing, turning to nothingness. Like I've stated before, residual being left behind doesn't take away from the ft. The planet we see was left over damaged planet but in its entirety, yes, the Galaxy was gone. In regards to Broly power level, the guy was destroying planets with casual hand size blast...lol, him being at his base destroying a Galaxy shouldn't be far fetched. Also, if you don't think its Galaxy busting, it sure as hell is solar system PLUS busting which would still put Broly around skyfather levels.

Galan007
So Broly destroyed the entire galaxy except for the dozens of 'residual' stars, and multiple planets(at the very least) we saw whizzing by Goku as he was IT'ing through the south galaxy..? C'mon. If stars and planets were still left intact, then it means Broly's energies either: a.) didn't expand outward enough to reach them, or b.) weren't powerful enough to destroy them.

Aside from that, because Broly never transformed into his LSSJ form until he fought the Z fighters on New Vegeta, your opinion dictates that Broly destroyed the south galaxy in his RESTRAINED/false SSJ form-- of which base-Saiyan Goku was able to match. Do you honestly believe pre-Cell-saga Goku was capable of galaxy-busting in his BASE form? Because that is also what your opinion dictates. srsly

The Jap dialogue was clear. That scene was simply meant to depict what might ultimately happen to the south galaxy IF Broly were left unchecked(this fact is also covered in the video I posted above.)

Zack Fair
Originally posted by BloodRain
If planets were left whole, the galaxy was not one-shotted. We see several planets standing with the sky full of stars.

In Jap it says the galaxy is under attack, Kai saying its being destroyed. thumb up

BloodRain
..casually destroying that small planet means galaxy busting should be possible?

That attack would have to be a couple billion times more powerful to hit star system busting. Galaxy? Thats need like.. a few duodecillions (39 zeroes) times more power. So yes, its a little far fetched to assumed as much no expression

The vid Galan posted says it all. The Japanese, which is as canon as the film can get, explains everything. It is only though Kai's vision with the dubbing that the galaxy busting starts to become a thing.. but even then the movie proves otherwise.

Galan007
For the sake of discussion I will be extremely generous, and use the distance of the oort cloud(3.2ly) as a reference to how large our solar system is-- as that is what NASA terms the end of the sun's physical and gravitational influence. And just to give you a reference as to how vast 3.2ly is: approximately 3,296,159,650,000,000,000,000,000,000(that's 3.2 billion-billion-billion) earths could fit inside this space. Anyway, the generally accepted size of the milky way galaxy is 100,000ly in diameter, and 1,000ly thick.

In short: this means the solar system is only a meager .0032% the size of the milky way. ie. the amount of energy required to destroy the galaxy in relation to the solar system--or worse yet, singular planet--is utterly inconceivable. Even if Broly could destroy the entire solar system with an inadvertent twitch of his eye, he'd still have to produce billionS upon billionS of times more energy to destroy the galaxy in its entirety.

...And we are supposed to believe he unleashed said energies in his RESTRAINED form? Lol, give me a break. Not only is that an lulz-worthy assertion, but we know that Broly didn't destroy the galaxy proper because of the star-filled space we saw in the south galaxy while Goku was IT'ing through it. Additionally, the original Jap dub only stated that the south galaxy was "under Super Saiyan attack"-- it said nothing about Broly actually destroying that galaxy(the english dub is what phucked that up.)

BloodRain
Originally posted by Galan007
he'd still have to produce billionS upon billionS of times more energy Otherwise known as LSSJ :P

Demonic Phoenix
Originally posted by Galan007
For the sake of discussion I will be extremely generous, and use the distance of the oort cloud(3.2ly) as a reference to how large our solar system is-- as that is what NASA terms the end of the sun's physical and gravitational influence. And just to give you a reference as to how vast 3.2ly is: approximately 3,296,159,650,000,000,000,000,000,000(that's 3.2 billion-billion-billion) earths could fit inside this space. Anyway, the generally accepted size of the milky way galaxy is 100,000ly in diameter, and 1,000ly thick.

In short: this means the solar system is only a meager .0032% the size of the milky way. ie. the amount of energy required to destroy the galaxy in relation to the solar system--or worse yet, singular planet--is utterly inconceivable. Even if Broly could destroy the entire solar system with an inadvertent twitch of his eye, he'd still have to produce billionS upon billionS of times more energy to destroy the galaxy in its entirety.

...And we are supposed to believe he unleashed said energies in his RESTRAINED form? Lol, give me a break. Not only is that an lulz-worthy assertion, but we know that Broly didn't destroy the galaxy proper because of the star-filled space we saw in the south galaxy while Goku was IT'ing through it. Additionally, the original Jap dub only stated that the south galaxy was "under Super Saiyan attack"-- it said nothing about Broly actually destroying that galaxy(the english dub is what phucked that up.)

English-dub restrained form Broly is obviously skyfather tier and the LSS form was his way of limiting himself to herald levels. thumb up

carver9
@Galan...


Where are you getting the idea that the planets Goku passed was in the Galaxy Broly destroyed? Goku used IT from his Galaxy (which could be the reason we saw planets) to the Galaxy Broly was in.

I can see where you are coming from with the Galaxy busting ft because planets was still around but him devistating a Galaxy the way he did within short time is still a skyfather level ft. I just disagree with the way you are going with it. The planets Goku passed could have still been in his Galaxy or a passing Galaxy on his way to Broly...who knows.

Also, the devistation he caused took place while he was in his non Super Saiyan form...by the end of the movie, Broly probably could have waved his hands and took out the Galaxy since his Super Saiyan form by the end of the movie>>>>>>>>his non Super Saiyan form.

BloodRain
We see hundreds of stars in the sky on the planet he's on..

It doesnt give him anything. In Kai's vision the whole galaxy dotted to black, nothing at all remaining. Him stating that the galaxy is under attack coupled with all the planets and stars around proves that the visual Kai envisioned means jack all.

Galan007
Originally posted by carver9
@Galan...


Where are you getting the idea that the planets Goku passed was in the Galaxy Broly destroyed? Goku used IT from his Galaxy (which could be the reason we saw planets) to the Galaxy Broly was in. Goku teleported from King Kai's planet directly to the south galaxy. This means Goku did not have to travel through his galaxy to get to the south galaxy-- if you'd have watched the first video I posted, you would already know these things.

That said, while Goku was IT'ing through the south galaxy, this is the image we saw the instant before he arrived on one of the planets Broly caused surface-level destruction to:
http://i.imgur.com/EmEQuXm.jpg

Once Goku arrived on said planet, not only do we see another planet in the background, but we also see multiple stars as well:
http://i.imgur.com/RvAyhIA.jpg
...Which lends further credence to the notion that the stars we see in the first image were in the south galaxy.

Originally posted by carver9
Also, the devistation he caused took place while he was in his non Super Saiyan form...by the end of the movie, Broly probably could have waved his hands and took out the Galaxy since his Super Saiyan form by the end of the movie>>>>>>>>his non Super Saiyan form. So do you still believe that RESTRAINED Broly destroyed the south galaxy? If so, then I'll refer you to this fight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvRPBEieyos
Again, restrained Broly and BASE Goku were roughly equal. Thus if you believe restrained Broly is a galaxy-buster, then you must also believe base Goku is a galaxy-buster as well... Which is simply ridiculous.

And it's even more ridiculous to believe LSSJ Broly is capable of destroying a galaxy with "the wave of his hand", when even Jesus-Cell, with his SSJ2-esque power, only theorized that he could destroy a solar system-- and LSSJ Broly was certainly not billionS upon billionS of times more powerful than Cell. srsly

Galan007
Damn, missed my editing window...

Anyway, here is the piece de resistance...

This is an image taken from just before the Comet Camori strikes New Vegeta(which was, obviously, in the south galaxy):
http://i.imgur.com/cwZv4H8.jpg
Hundreds of stars in the background. Clearly Broly hadn't touched the majority of the galaxy.

NotAllThatEvil
I thought power levels are cannicly pointless?

carver9
@Galan...

It couldnt have been a direct teleportation since we see Goku moving from one galaxy to the other. They made teleportation during that episode like flight. Again, there isnt anything shown during that episode that proves the planets we saw wasn't from Goku Galaxy.

I agree with most of what youve said though except Broly power level during the time he destroyed the south Galaxy. He didn't transform into his super Saiyan mode until he fought Goku so he was at his base form when he caused the destruction he caused. It wasn't a Galaxy destroying blast but it wad close to it...hellava close. Goku matching this power at his base form gives us an indication on just how powerful Goku is.

Don't know how or why you are so surpised by this. We all know Goku holds back and we do not know the cap on his power level, even in his base form.

Like I've stated, I agree with most of what you've said...just some small parts on your post I don't agree with.

BloodRain
What are the small things that lead to such destruction?

carver9
You and Galan not agreeing with me.

BloodRain
On what? What parts of the original scene come close to suggesting galaxy busting?

carver9
I agreed with Galan on the Galaxy busting content. Reread my posts.

BloodRain
Taking out the galaxy busting from that scene leave us with nothing.

Galan007
Originally posted by carver9
It wasn't a Galaxy destroying blast but it wad close to it...hellava close. The movie stills I posted would strongly disagree. And no, base-level Goku isn't remotely close to a galaxy buster-- nor is restrained Broly. That's just silly.

Like I've reiterated multiple times: even Super-Perfect/SSJ2-esque Cell(who over-exaggerated/boasted about his power incessantly) only theorized that he could destroy a solar system-- and I broke down the size differential between a solar system and a galaxy above. Thus, for restrained Broly and/or base-level Goku to destroy "most of" a galaxy, as you're claiming, they'd have to be billionS upon billionS of times more powerful than Super-Perfect Cell... Which they obviously weren't.

Remember, movie #8 was set around the time of the Cell Games. That said:
Super-Perfect Cell>>>Perfect Cell>ASSJ Goku>>>>>>>>base-level Goku=restrained Broly. In even simpler terms: Super-Perfect Cell's power is SEVERAL orders of magnitude beyond that of restrained Broly and base-level Goku, yet he was only a solar system-buster at the MOST--- so how can characters whom were vastly WEAKER than Cell produce astronomically MORE energy than him?

The answer is simple: they CAN'T. smile

carver9
When did Cell claim "blowing up a solar system" was his limit? That was never mentioned. During the beginning of his attack, yes, he referenced solar system busting but by the time more energy was added to him Kamehameha blast, I feel safe at saying that it was far greater than solar system busting.

Galan007
Originally posted by carver9
When did Cell claim "blowing up a solar system" was his limit? That was never mentioned. During the beginning of his attack, yes, he referenced solar system busting but by the time more energy was added to him Kamehameha blast, I feel safe at saying that it was far greater than solar system busting. Moments before launching his Kamehameha, Cell flat-out stated that he'd "gathered enough ki to destroy the whole solar system." Assuming he was capable of destroying more than he said he could destroy is horrendously faulty, as you are: a.) putting words in his mouth, and b.) applying a no-limits fallacy on his powerset.

More faulty still is your assertion that restrained Broly and base-level Goku were able to destroy "most of" a galaxy, when a charged-up Super-Perfect Cell only commented on being able to destroy the solar system. A vastly weaker character cannot destroy more than a vastly stronger character. Simple.

BloodRain
Where would Freeza rank compared to Cell saga base Goku?

Galan007
Sans kaio-ken amping, I can't imagine base Goku being on par with 100% Frieza-- even during the Cell Games.

100% Frieza's PL=120,000,000. If Goku's base PL were equal to Frieza's, then it'd put his SSJ PL at 6 billion(120 million*50=6 billion.) That just seems WAY too high, imo.

Tbh, I think even half of that PL(3 billion) would be a stretch, and that'd only put Goku's base PL at 60,000,000-- which means he would be roughly equal to 50% Frieza.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Galan007
So Broly destroyed the entire galaxy except for the dozens of 'residual' stars, and multiple planets(at the very least) we saw whizzing by Goku as he was IT'ing through the south galaxy..? C'mon. If stars and planets were still left intact, then it means Broly's energies either: a.) didn't expand outward enough to reach them, or b.) weren't powerful enough to destroy them. Or Broly just recreated the galaxy. He's basically a god, you know.

carver9
Originally posted by Galan007
Moments before launching his Kamehameha, Cell flat-out stated that he'd "gathered enough ki to destroy the whole solar system." Assuming he was capable of destroying more than he said he could destroy is horrendously faulty, as you are: a.) putting words in his mouth, and b.) applying a no-limits fallacy on his powerset.

More faulty still is your assertion that restrained Broly and base-level Goku were able to destroy "most of" a galaxy, when a charged-up Super-Perfect Cell only commented on being able to destroy the solar system. A vastly weaker character cannot destroy more than a vastly stronger character. Simple.

I just reread the Cell scene and you are correct. I agreed with you a while back on the Galaxy busting ft so I don't have any other comments about this topic. I still think you are underestimating Base Goku power level though but with that said, I'm giving you a thumbs up in agreement.

That ft still put Broly somewhere around Solar System+ power.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Galan007
Sans kaio-ken amping, I can't imagine base Goku being on par with 100% Frieza-- even during the Cell Games.

100% Frieza's PL=120,000,000. If Goku's base PL were equal to Frieza's, then it'd put his SSJ PL at 6 billion(120 million*50=6 billion.) That just seems WAY too high, imo.

Tbh, I think even half of that PL(3 billion) would be a stretch, and that'd only put Goku's base PL at 60,000,000-- which means he would be roughly equal to 50% Frieza.

The first time base Goku makes a fool of Frieza is GT...and that doesn't count. lol

BloodRain
Originally posted by Galan007
Sans kaio-ken amping, I can't imagine base Goku being on par with 100% Frieza-- even during the Cell Games.

100% Frieza's PL=120,000,000. If Goku's base PL were equal to Frieza's, then it'd put his SSJ PL at 6 billion(120 million*50=6 billion.) That just seems WAY too high, imo.

Tbh, I think even half of that PL(3 billion) would be a stretch, and that'd only put Goku's base PL at 60,000,000-- which means he would be roughly equal to 50% Frieza. So anything this base Goku can do, Freeza can do better?

Galan007
Originally posted by NemeBro
Or Broly just recreated the galaxy. He's basically a god, you know. You know your shit, my friend. clapclap

Originally posted by carver9
I just reread the Cell scene and you are correct. I agreed with you a while back on the Galaxy busting ft so I don't have any other comments about this topic. I still think you are underestimating Base Goku power level though but with that said, I'm giving you a thumbs up in agreement.
thumb up

Originally posted by dadudemon
The first time base Goku makes a fool of Frieza is GT...and that doesn't count. lol Lol, and the GT multipliers were phucking ridiculous anyway.

Originally posted by BloodRain
So anything this base Goku can do, Freeza can do better? w/o kaio-ken amping, yes.

ShadeSlayer15
Originally posted by Galan007
Sans kaio-ken amping, I can't imagine base Goku being on par with 100% Frieza-- even during the Cell Games.

100% Frieza's PL=120,000,000. If Goku's base PL were equal to Frieza's, then it'd put his SSJ PL at 6 billion(120 million*50=6 billion.) That just seems WAY too high, imo.

Tbh, I think even half of that PL(3 billion) would be a stretch, and that'd only put Goku's base PL at 60,000,000-- which means he would be roughly equal to 50% Frieza. I can

juggerman
Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
I can

Well you are wrong. But don't let that stop ya

BloodRain
Originally posted by Galan007
w/o kaio-ken amping, yes. Cool, so Freeza would have replicated all of a restrained Broly's feats. Makes sense..

Galan007
Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
I can You have a very wild imagination, then.

At the end of the Frieza saga, Goku's PL was 150,000,000. When he returned to earth a year later and met Trunks, his power likely wasn't a whole lot greater, given that the inhabitants of Yardrat were quite weak, and had little to offer him aside from IT(Goku explicitly stated this.) Let's be generous, though, and assume his PL was 200,000,000.

Then he half-ass trained during the 3 year hiatus between the Frieza and Android saga. Let's over-exaggerate and assume his PL doubled to 400,000,000 when he confronted 19 & 20.

Then he contracted the heart disease, and healed from that. Even though it wasn't even alluded to that Goku received a zenkai from that, and even though Goku outright stated that he still wasn't powerful enough to beat 17 & 18 at the time, let's assume his PL inextricably jumped to 500,000,000.

Almost immediately after recovering, he trained in the time chamber with Gohan for less than a full year, and you believe his PL skyrocketed from 500 million(which is a VAST overestimation to begin with) to 6 billion by the end of said training? You realize this equates to an increase of 1,100%, right? I could agree that Goku's PL quadrupled or even hextupled during his training-- but it most certainly did not duodecuple. none

Galan007
Originally posted by BloodRain
Cool, so Freeza would have replicated all of a restrained Broly's feats. Makes sense.. ...And easily, at that. thumb up

juggerman
Originally posted by Galan007
...And easily, at that. thumb up

Including his universe bust!!!!!

ALL HAIL LORD FRIEZA

BloodRain
Tbh it should not be possible for base Goku to have a PL of 120,000,000, but sadly the Namek sagas massive PL jumps could say otherwise.

A lifetime of training got Goku = ~1,000
A year training with King Kai/10g = 8,000
Zenkai + few months training/100g = 90,000
Zenkai = 3,000,000

According to the Namek!boosts 3 years training, a zenkai and half a year of 10g training could push him up to 120,000,000 (well in multiplying, not addition).



...Even though its a fact later on that the 2x SS2 boost is a major increase. Oh DB, you and your power levels.

Galan007
Originally posted by BloodRain
...Even though its a fact later on that the 2x SS2 boost is a major increase. Oh DB, you and your power levels. ...Which is why we can say with a fair amount of certainty that we didn't see the same exponential increases in PLs, post-Frieza saga.

Like you said: Gohan's PL only doubled when he went SSJ2, and the rest of the Z-fighters were literally in awe of such a massive boost.

ShadeSlayer15
I wonder how stong ssj God is/

ShadeSlayer15
It looks like kaoken

Galan007
Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
I wonder how stong ssj God is/ From what I've seen/read, Bills toyed with SSJ3 Goku as though he were a weak feeb-- he literally beat SSJ3 Goku with a single finger. He also trounced Mystic Gohan like fodder.

Yet after transforming into a SSJG, Goku was able to put up an extremely good fight against Bills-- their powers were near-equal, with Bills having the ever-so-slight advantage. ie. SSJG=~Bills>>>>>Mystic Gohan>>SSJ3 Goku.

So clearly the multiplier between a SSJ3 and a SSJG is huge. No way to say exactly how huge, though.

juggerman
Well seeing as how SSJ3 Goku was equal to SSJ1 Gotenks and SSJ3 Gotenks was super duper inferior to Mystic Gohan...I'd say it multiplied Goku by at least a kerjillion parsecs

Galan007
Sounds about right. thumb up

dadudemon
Originally posted by juggerman
Well seeing as how SSJ3 Goku was equal to SSJ1 Gotenks and SSJ3 Gotenks was super duper inferior to Mystic Gohan...I'd say it multiplied Goku by at least a kerjillion parsecs

Based on canon information, it cannot be determined if SSJ1 Gotenks was stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

The only thing we can know is SSJ1 Gotenks and SSJ3 Gotenks is somewhere around SSJ3 Goku with the SSJ3 most likely being stronger than SSJ3 Goku (but not certain).

ShadeSlayer15
Just by watching DBZ for so long, I can be pretty sure when I say that I bet ssj gotenks was at the same level or lower but not stonger than ssj 3 goku even ssj assended gotenks would be stronger

Based
Any form of SSJ Gotenks >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Goku.

Galan007
Hm, I could definitely buy-off on the notion that SSJ3 Gotenks>>SSJ3 Goku, but what's the proof that Gotenks' weaker levels are still>>SSJ3 Goku?

dadudemon
Originally posted by Galan007
Hm, I could definitely buy-off on the notion that SSJ3 Gotenks>>SSJ3 Goku, but what's the proof that Gotenks' weaker levels are still>>SSJ3 Goku?

There is no proof and it has been a topic of debate for over a decade by many internet geeks.



Here is what both sides' arguments can be boiled down to:


Pro-Gotenks camp:

Goku said for Fat Buu to be patient because he would get a stronger warrior ready to fight him.

Then Goku proceeds to convince Goten and Trunks that a SSJ transformation was necessary to defeat Buu and solidifies his point when Gotenks in a non-SSJ state got his ass handed to him. Thus, Goku was weaker than SSJ1 Gotenks because that's what Goku claimed to Buu.



Pro-Goku Camp:

Goku was holding back against Fat Buu, as he later states before his final confrontation of Kid Buu. His claim about Gotenks being stronger was just a lie to get Fat Buu to stop destroying stuff until Gotenks is ready to fight. Goku's entire plan was to get the earth warriors ready for a life without Goku there to always save them.

Goku held his own against a powered up Buu (Super Buu? I don't remember...but that is how one of their arguments goes).




Both sides have good points but at no point do we know definitively whether or not SSJ1 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. But it does seem reasonable to assume SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku...HOWEVER!


The pro Goku side has asserted that the immortal SSJ3 Goku could just continually collect power until he was stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. They also state that Goku's superior combat experience would allow him to defeat SSJ3 Gotenks. Also, there are those that simply reject that SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku under the grounds that they just barely reached SSJ3 State and that that state requires a certain power level before it can be obtained. But, my argument against that is both Trunks and Goten are half-humans and Saiyan-Human hybrids seem to be stronger than just pure humans or pure saiyan.

Based
http://www.manga2u.me/wp-content/manga/682/476/2u009.jpg

This is prior to Gotenks ever going to the ROSAT and this is the closest thing to definitive you can get in DBZ without getting shitstomped on screen.

BloodRain
Didn't one of the DaisenImnotgoingtorememberthename official books say that SS3 Goku = SS1 Gotenks?

Galan007
Originally posted by dadudemon
There is no proof and it has been a topic of debate for over a decade by many internet geeks.



Here is what both sides' arguments can be boiled down to:


Pro-Gotenks camp:

Goku said for Fat Buu to be patient because he would get a stronger warrior ready to fight him.

Then Goku proceeds to convince Goten and Trunks that a SSJ transformation was necessary to defeat Buu and solidifies his point when Gotenks in a non-SSJ state got his ass handed to him. Thus, Goku was weaker than SSJ1 Gotenks because that's what Goku claimed to Buu.



Pro-Goku Camp:

Goku was holding back against Fat Buu, as he later states before his final confrontation of Kid Buu. His claim about Gotenks being stronger was just a lie to get Fat Buu to stop destroying stuff until Gotenks is ready to fight. Goku's entire plan was to get the earth warriors ready for a life without Goku there to always save them.

Goku held his own against a powered up Buu (Super Buu? I don't remember...but that is how one of their arguments goes).




Both sides have good points but at no point do we know definitively whether or not SSJ1 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. But it does seem reasonable to assume SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku...HOWEVER!


The pro Goku side has asserted that the immortal SSJ3 Goku could just continually collect power until he was stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. They also state that Goku's superior combat experience would allow him to defeat SSJ3 Gotenks. Also, there are those that simply reject that SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku under the grounds that they just barely reached SSJ3 State and that that state requires a certain power level before it can be obtained. But, my argument against that is both Trunks and Goten are half-humans and Saiyan-Human hybrids seem to be stronger than just pure humans or pure saiyan. Yeah, I figured as much.

My contention:
SSJ3 Gotenks is more powerful than SSJ3 Goku. Why? Because Goku outright told Vegeta that Super Buu was "FAR too strong" for them to defeat. Conversely, SSJ3 Gotenks was able to fair quite well against Super Buu during their battle-- in fact, I'd even say Gotenks had the advantage before his time ran out and he powered down.

Additionally, we also know that Goku was drastically holding back against Fat Buu, given that it was later confirmed that he could have beaten Kid Buu "in an INSTANT" if he would have fully powered up as a SSJ3.

ie. SSJ3 Gotenks=/>Super Buu>>SSJ3 Goku>>>Kid Buu>>Fat Buu.


That being said, I don't think there is any clear proof that Gotenks' weaker SSJ levels were on par with, much less superior to, SSJ3 Goku. Just my opinion.

Darth Angel
Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, I figured as much.

My contention:
SSJ3 Gotenks is more powerful than SSJ3 Goku. Why? Because Goku outright told Vegeta that Super Buu was "FAR too strong" for them to defeat. Conversely, SSJ3 Gotenks was able to fair quite well against Super Buu during their battle-- in fact, I'd even say Gotenks had the advantage before his time ran out and he powered down.

Additionally, we also know that Goku was drastically holding back against Fat Buu, given that it was later confirmed that he could have beaten Kid Buu "in an INSTANT" if he would have fully powered up as a SSJ3.

ie. SSJ3 Gotenks=/>Super Buu>>SSJ3 Goku>>>Kid Buu>>Fat Buu.


That being said, I don't think there is any clear proof that Gotenks' weaker SSJ levels were on par with, much less superior to, SSJ3 Goku. Just my opinion.

Yeah, but the problem is:

- When Super boo was transforming to Buff boo, he was actually getting stronger. Mind that buff boo is kid boo plus a kaioshin who is weaker then SSJ Gohan, the guy who pulled out the sword that no kaioshin could pull, meaning that kid boo, weaker or stronger then Super boo, should be at least at a comparable scale of power.

- The fact that when goku asked if vegeta wanted to bring Gotenks or Gohan to fight Kid Boo and he basicaly dismissed that option and opted for a genki dama with everybodies energy (gohan's included, someone stronger then ssj3 gotenks), and no one, from goku to elder kaioshin, rised an eyebrown saying he was wrong, which actually is later implied as a good option since a genki dama with gohan's energy alone was not enough to kill boo.


In the end is a tough discussion, because in the begining of the boo saga it seemed that Goku was passing the torch one more time to the young generation, yet later he did step up and even said he could have finished the business when he fought fat boo.

So, as I see it, is hard to really know who was the strongest because the manga itself has some contradictions, but for me the best option is to let mystic gohan, ssj3 gotenks and ssj3 goku at comparables scales of powers.

Based
Originally posted by Galan007


That being said, I don't think there is any clear proof that Gotenks' weaker SSJ levels were on par with, much less superior to, SSJ3 Goku. Just my opinion.

You mean other than Goku saying it a million times that SSJ Gotenks is stronger than himself?

ShadeSlayer15
ssj 3 goku is stonger.... period

Based
ssj 3 goku said Gotenks is stonger.... period

Supra
Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
Lets start the convo my friends... The first LSSJ exploded, Could we guess what his power level would have been to explode like that.

Brolly is the only LSS ever to be...it begins and ends with him. It has nothing to do with power levels and thats the end of story.

Power levels have nothing to do with the LSS and everyone here should know that. Everyone here arguing power lvl vs. the LSS has absolutely no clue what the lore is about.

He goes by more then just LSS

Many names have been used such as:

LSS
Super Saiyan Final Form
LSSJ
True Super Saiyan

Galan007
Originally posted by Darth Angel
Yeah, but the problem is:

- When Super boo was transforming to Buff boo, he was actually getting stronger. Mind that buff boo is kid boo plus a kaioshin who is weaker then SSJ Gohan, the guy who pulled out the sword that no kaioshin could pull, meaning that kid boo, weaker or stronger then Super boo, should be at least at a comparable scale of power.

- The fact that when goku asked if vegeta wanted to bring Gotenks or Gohan to fight Kid Boo and he basicaly dismissed that option and opted for a genki dama with everybodies energy (gohan's included, someone stronger then ssj3 gotenks), and no one, from goku to elder kaioshin, rised an eyebrown saying he was wrong, which actually is later implied as a good option since a genki dama with gohan's energy alone was not enough to kill boo. A few things:

a.) Goku wasn't able to fully power up as a SSJ3. Had he been able to, he could have beaten Kid Buu with ease.

b.) Aside from Goku and Vegeta, all of the Z fighters were killed by Kid Buu when he destroyed earth-- so without being able to fully power up as a SSJ3, a spirit bomb was their only hope at defeating him.

Originally posted by Based
You mean other than Goku saying it a million times that SSJ Gotenks is stronger than himself? IIRC, Goku made those statements before Goten/Trunks had even fused into Gotenks. Goku is many things, but an omniscient clairvoyant, he is not. That said, he might have been able to guesstimate what a fusion between Goten and Trunks would be capable of-- but it was just that: a guess. He had no way to know for certain(key word) what type of power Gotenks would wield.

Guesses=/=facts. Had Goku looked at SSJ Gotenks and said: "he's stronger than me", you'd have a point-- but he never did, that I can recall.

ShadeSlayer15
Originally posted by Supra
Brolly is the only LSS ever to be...it begins and ends with him. It has nothing to do with power levels and thats the end of story.

Power levels have nothing to do with the LSS and everyone here should know that. Everyone here arguing power lvl vs. the LSS has absolutely no clue what the lore is about.

He goes by more then just LSS

Many names have been used such as:

LSS
Super Saiyan Final Form
LSSJ
True Super Saiyan well my friend, you are very wrong they tell the story of the very first lssj, so check up on your facts man and according to tokioma ssjg is the final ssj form

Based
Originally posted by Galan007

IIRC, Goku made those statements before Goten/Trunks had even fused into Gotenks. Goku is many things, but an omniscient clairvoyant, he is not. That said, he might have been able to guesstimate what a fusion between Goten and Trunks would be capable of-- but it was just that: a guess. He had no way to know for certain(key word) what type of power Gotenks would wield.

Guesses=/=facts. Had Goku looked at SSJ Gotenks and said: "he's stronger than me", you'd have a point-- but he never did, that I can recall.

Goku is like the only one in the series who can actually predict power levels and unseen strength..

He knew Gohan would surpass him and everyone and their mother was surprised when Gohan powered up at the Cell Games. He even "called" a SSJ2 transformation without any evidence of there being such a power up. He knew. Unless you think Goku is that dumb to teach the kids a useless technique that would endanger the world if it wasn't good enough.

Regardless during that exchange Piccolo surmised that SSJ3 Goku > Fat Boo. In other words he can sense the strength required to beat him. When SSJ Gotenks first made an appearance, Piccolo complimented his massive his power but was concerned about his speed. Remember that he was one of the very few who watched USSJ Trunks against Cell and even though Trunks was stronger his lack of speed made him lose. So if Piccolo's concerns are about speed then he determined his power is > Fat Boo.


Then Gotenks blitzed the world which showed that he was strong and fast enough to beat Boo. If we're going by this alone then the only definitive thing is SSJ3 Goku ~ SSJ Gotenks. But Goku flat out admitted Gotenks would be stronger and there's nothing suggesting the opposite.

Post ROSAT SSJ Gotenks would slaughter the fvck out of Goku though.

Supra
Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
well my friend, you are very wrong they tell the story of the very first lssj, so check up on your facts man and according to tokioma ssjg is the final ssj form


Wrong about what?

Read here and then tell me Im wrong..
http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Legendary_Super_Saiyan

There is only one LSSJ, that is and was Brolly


"Broly, is (as the title suggests) the Legendary Super Saiyan, a warrior that tales tell is the single strongest being in history. Broly's final transformation puts him in a class of his own."

ShadeSlayer15
there is only one ever so many years they don't live for ever the first lss was consumed by his power and got so strong his body couldn't handle It and he was destroyed, Their is only one LSS ever 1,000 years so what was you saying about me being wrong again
as stated by The prince or all sj vegeta check your facts next time, and also that was probably true before they new about ssj 2,3 and god so once again your wrong haha

Galan007
Originally posted by Based
Goku is like the only one in the series who can actually predict power levels and unseen strength..

He knew Gohan would surpass him and everyone and their mother was surprised when Gohan powered up at the Cell Games. He even "called" a SSJ2 transformation without any evidence of there being such a power up. He knew. Unless you think Goku is that dumb to teach the kids a useless technique that would endanger the world if it wasn't good enough.

Regardless during that exchange Piccolo surmised that SSJ3 Goku > Fat Boo. In other words he can sense the strength required to beat him. When SSJ Gotenks first made an appearance, Piccolo complimented his massive his power but was concerned about his speed. Remember that he was one of the very few who watched USSJ Trunks against Cell and even though Trunks was stronger his lack of speed made him lose. So if Piccolo's concerns are about speed then he determined his power is > Fat Boo.


Then Gotenks blitzed the world which showed that he was strong and fast enough to beat Boo. If we're going by this alone then the only definitive thing is SSJ3 Goku ~ SSJ Gotenks. But Goku flat out admitted Gotenks would be stronger and there's nothing suggesting the opposite.

Post ROSAT SSJ Gotenks would slaughter the fvck out of Goku though. I entirely disagree.

Goku is neither omniscient, nor is he infallible. He did little more than take an educated guess as to what type of power Gotenks would wield. In fact, he didn't even see the final product of a Goten/Trunks amalgamation until after Gotenks emerged from the time chamber as a SSJ3-- and even then, Goku only commented on how impressive it was that they had learned to master that transformation in such a short amount of time. Anyway, unless a character's guesses are definitively proven later on with something of substance, they never, in any form of literature(be it fictional or non-fictional), equate to incontrovertible fact. And in this case, absolutely nothing substantial confirms that SSJ Gotenks was superior to SSJ3 Goku.


We know base Gotenks was laughably insignificant compared to Super Buu:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535907/410501.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535908/410502.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535909/410503.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535910/410504.gif.html

We know Super Buu was also WELL above SSJ Gotenks, in lieu of his(Gotenks') bizarre attacks:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535911/410508.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535912/410509.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535913/410510.gif.html

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535929/410607.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535930/410609.gif.html

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535931/410705.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535932/410706.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535933/410707.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535934/410708.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535935/410709.gif.html

We know SSJ3 Gotenks was "close to" Super Buu's level:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535884/411007.gif.html
_______

We know SSJ3 Goku was evidently much weaker than Super Buu:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535885/420412.gif.html

We know SSJ3 Goku could have beaten Fat Buu, but opted not to because he wanted to give Goten/Trunks a chance:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535886/420711.gif.html

We know full power SSJ3 Goku could have destroyed Kid Buu effortlessly as well:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535887/420813.gif.html


So as far as provable(key word) facts are concerned:
SSJ3 Gotenks=~Super Buu>SSJ Gotenks>base Gotenks.

We also know:
SSJ3 Gotenks=~Super Buu>SSJ3 Goku>Kid Buu>Fat Buu.

Where exactly base Gotenks and SSJ Gotenks plug-into the latter equation, or where SSJ3 Goku plugs-into the former equation, is impossible to say based on what we know to be fact. On panel we saw Super Buu utterly demolish SSJ(and base) Gotenks, despite being completely surprised by his zany attacks, and not really taking him seriously at all. We also have Goku saying that Super Buu was "far too strong" for him to defeat. So while SSJ Gotenks *might* be around SSJ3 Goku's level, absolutely no evidence alludes to him being stronger.



Thus, your contention that SSJ Gotenks "would slaughter the fvck out of Goku" cannot logically be referenced as fact, because it cannot be proven. Your stance is based almost exclusively on your personal opinions+Goku's guesstimation/speechification on a character that didn't even exist when he made those claims. Sorry, but I just can't buy it.

Based
Originally posted by Galan007


Goku is neither omniscient, nor is he infallible.
I'm just going to nitpick in saying that this is strawman was actually annoying. No I never said Goku was infallible. He made a calculation about Gotenks power level based on the fusion dance in which he had plenty of time to study. Now if you think he's stupid enough to roll the dice on Earth's future with two little boys without any good reason, then by all means go ahead.



And the point is? Power level aren't an abstract concept...it's formulaic which is why it can be computed with scouters. The dance is no different. It multiplies the powers of the two users by a given amount. Goku spent years in other world training, obviously he's going to know how much of a multiplier the dance will give. Goku's not a dumbass when it comes to fighting, in fact he's probably the smartest one on Earth. I mean if we're going out blatantly ignore statements from characters then you can argue that anything here.



...And it works both ways. Your original point that SSJ3 Goku >>>>>>> Gotenks "cannot" be proven.






There's no *might* about this. If Gotenks wasn't strong enough then Piccolo would have nixed the plan right then and there. Instead he sensed Gotenks power and deemed him strong enough to beat Boo.





Lol, have you heard of the concept of training? You know, the part where characters ALWAYS get stronger after they go through with it? If SSJ Gotenks ~= SSJ3 Goku before the training then yes you can logically place Gotenks stronger than Goku after training in a room that has in each case magnified the powers of the user. Piccolo again has noticed a power boost after the boys went through training.



Well yeah, I wouldn't expect you to buy something while ignoring half of the thing you're questioning. Piccolo has stated that Gotenks went through enough of a power boost where the only concern about him in his speed out of fear that he was using the ASSJ transformation. Your argument also hinges on the fact that Goku, who's spent a decade in other world knows nothing of a technique that he's banking on that will save the world. It's completely out of character and you really can't find any proof at all suggesting that Goku was completely wrong. Admittedly the feats are lacking but there's absolutely no proof at all SSJ3 Goku > SSJ Gotenks.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, I figured as much.

My contention:
SSJ3 Gotenks is more powerful than SSJ3 Goku. Why? Because Goku outright told Vegeta that Super Buu was "FAR too strong" for them to defeat. Conversely, SSJ3 Gotenks was able to fair quite well against Super Buu during their battle-- in fact, I'd even say Gotenks had the advantage before his time ran out and he powered down.

Additionally, we also know that Goku was drastically holding back against Fat Buu, given that it was later confirmed that he could have beaten Kid Buu "in an INSTANT" if he would have fully powered up as a SSJ3.

ie. SSJ3 Gotenks=/>Super Buu>>SSJ3 Goku>>>Kid Buu>>Fat Buu.


That being said, I don't think there is any clear proof that Gotenks' weaker SSJ levels were on par with, much less superior to, SSJ3 Goku. Just my opinion.

Nothing is wrong with your logic and I cannot disagree with anything you have stated.

thumb up


Rest assured, if there was something wrong, I'd argue against it. uhuh

Originally posted by Based
Admittedly the feats are lacking but there's absolutely no proof at all SSJ3 Goku > SSJ Gotenks.

Here's part of your problem: that is not what Galan ever argued.

This has been his argument:

Originally posted by Galan007
And in this case, absolutely nothing substantial confirms that SSJ Gotenks was superior to SSJ3 Goku.

So as far as provable(key word) facts are concerned:
SSJ3 Gotenks=~Super Buu>SSJ Gotenks>base Gotenks.

We also know:
SSJ3 Gotenks=~Super Buu>SSJ3 Goku>Kid Buu>Fat Buu.

So while SSJ Gotenks *might* be around SSJ3 Goku's level, absolutely no evidence alludes to him being stronger.

Thus, your contention that SSJ Gotenks "would slaughter the fvck out of Goku" cannot logically be referenced as fact, because it cannot be proven.

Galan007
Originally posted by Based
I'm just going to nitpick in saying that this is strawman was actually annoying. No I never said Goku was infallible. He made a calculation about Gotenks power level based on the fusion dance in which he had plenty of time to study. Now if you think he's stupid enough to roll the dice on Earth's future with two little boys without any good reason, then by all means go ahead. I'm just going to nitpick in saying how annoying it is when people dub a particular argument as a straw-man, without knowing what a straw-man is.

That said, pointing out the provable fact that Goku is a very fallible character =/= a straw-man. I'll explain why in detail later on...

Originally posted by Based
And the point is? Power level aren't an abstract concept...it's formulaic which is why it can be computed with scouters. The dance is no different. It multiplies the powers of the two users by a given amount. Goku spent years in other world training, obviously he's going to know how much of a multiplier the dance will give. Goku's not a dumbass when it comes to fighting, in fact he's probably the smartest one on Earth. I mean if we're going out blatantly ignore statements from characters then you can argue that anything here. Goku also told Piccolo originally that he couldn't have beaten Fat Buu. Later on he told Vegeta that he could have beaten Fat Buu, but wanted to give the kids something to do.

And again: Goku was taking an educated guess. He had no way of knowing for sure how powerful a Goten/Trunks amalgam would become. In fact, had Gotenks not been able to transform into a SSJ3(a transformation that Goku obviously didn't account for, given how shocked he was by it), then his guess would have been wrong, as Super Buu was FAR more powerful than SSJ Gotenks.

Originally posted by Based
...And it works both ways. Your original point that SSJ3 Goku >>>>>>> Gotenks "cannot" be proven. Stop deflecting. All that can be proven is that base-level Gotenks, SSJ Gotenks, and SSJ3 Goku were ALL vastly inferior to Super Buu. So the absolute MOST you can logically claim is that SSJ Gotenks may have been around SSJ3 Goku's level.

However, there is absolutely no way for you to prove your massively overinflated claim that SSJ Gotenks>>>SSJ3 Goku.

Originally posted by Based
There's no *might* about this. If Gotenks wasn't strong enough then Piccolo would have nixed the plan right then and there. Instead he sensed Gotenks power and deemed him strong enough to beat Boo. What we saw happen on panel supersedes Piccolo's opinion of Gotenks' power. And on panel we saw Super Buu stop the holy hell out of SSJ Gotenks:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535911/410508.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535912/410509.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535913/410510.gif.html

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535929/410607.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535930/410609.gif.html

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535931/410705.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535932/410706.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535933/410707.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535934/410708.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535935/410709.gif.html

Piccolo obviously sensed that SSJ Gotenks could NOT defeat Super Buu, which is why he destroyed the entrance to the time chamber from the inside:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16541273/410709.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16541274/410710.gif.html
He knew Super Buu was more powerful than SSJ Gotenks, and thought trapping them all in the time chamber was the only way to stop him-- Piccolo obviously couldn't sense Gotenks' SSJ3 power, otherwise he wouldn't have taken such drastic measures.

He was also very surprised by the transformation initially-- which further supports the notion that he couldn't sense Gotenks' latent SSJ3 power until he physically transformed:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16541396/410809.gif.html

Originally posted by Based
Lol, have you heard of the concept of training? You know, the part where characters ALWAYS get stronger after they go through with it? If SSJ Gotenks ~= SSJ3 Goku before the training then yes you can logically place Gotenks stronger than Goku after training in a room that has in each case magnified the powers of the user. Piccolo again has noticed a power boost after the boys went through training. As I've already stated: we saw Super Buu stomp the bejesus out of SSJ Gotenks in the time chamber AFTER his training. Like I mentioned: Piccolo's(and Goku's) opinion of base-level and SSJ Gotenks was contradicted by Super Buu effortlessly trouncing him. Showings>statements.

Originally posted by Based
Well yeah, I wouldn't expect you to buy something while ignoring half of the thing you're questioning. Piccolo has stated that Gotenks went through enough of a power boost where the only concern about him in his speed out of fear that he was using the ASSJ transformation. Your argument also hinges on the fact that Goku, who's spent a decade in other world knows nothing of a technique that he's banking on that will save the world. It's completely out of character and you really can't find any proof at all suggesting that Goku was completely wrong. Admittedly the feats are lacking but there's absolutely no proof at all SSJ3 Goku > SSJ Gotenks. My argumentation is based ENTIRELY by on panel happenings-- double check my posts if you disagree.

You, on the other hand, are basing your opinion exclusively on character statements that were proven wrong. Regardless of the speechification made about base-level and SSJ Gotenks, we KNOW that he WASN'T nearly strong enough to defeat Super Buu, because Super Buu shit-stomped him. Hell, Buu didn't even take SSJ Gotenks seriously at all.

Gotenks ONLY became powerful enough to contend with Super Buu when he became 6x more powerful, and went SSJ3-- and Goku was shocked that he was able to attain this form, so it clearly wasn't something he'd accounted for with his original boasts:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16541397/410812.gif.html

Same with Piccolo:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16541396/410809.gif.html

Galan007
Originally posted by dadudemon
Nothing is wrong with your logic and I cannot disagree with anything you have stated.

thumb up

Rest assured, if there was something wrong, I'd argue against it. uhuh If there's one thing I've learned about you, it's that you aren't afraid to argue. stick out tongue

Originally posted by dadudemon
Here's part of your problem: that is not what Galan ever argued.

This has been his argument: thumb up

If he'd simply claimed that SSJ Gotenks=~SSJ3 Goku, then I'd have no problem with it, because it is a supportable opinion based on what we know to be fact.

However, his claim that SSJ Gotenks "would slaughter the fvck out of Goku" borders on laughable, because it cannot be supported by any facts whatsoever.

juggerman
Originally posted by Galan007
And again: Goku was taking an educated guess. He had no way of knowing for sure how powerful a Goten/Trunks amalgam would become. In fact, had Gotenks not been able to transform into a SSJ3(a transformation that Goku obviously didn't account for, given how shocked he was by it), then his guess would have been wrong, as Super Buu was FAR more powerful than SSJ Gotenks.

... As I've already stated: we saw Super Buu stomp the bejesus out of SSJ Gotenks in the time chamber AFTER his training. Like I mentioned: Piccolo's(and Goku's) opinion of base-level and SSJ Gotenks was contradicted by Super Buu effortlessly trouncing him. Showings>statements.

Correct me if i'm wrong here but Goku guessed Gotenks would be powerful enough to defeat Fat Buu even without the SSJ3 form and he was correct. He had no idea Buu would change into another more powerful form(tho honestly he should have seeing as how all the major villians transform at one point or another) that would be too much for the boys and even himself to handle

Galan007
Originally posted by juggerman
Correct me if i'm wrong here but Goku guessed Gotenks would be powerful enough to defeat Fat Buu even without the SSJ3 form and he was correct. He had no idea Buu would change into another more powerful form(tho honestly he should have seeing as how all the major villians transform at one point or another) that would be too much for the boys and even himself to handle That's who Goku was referring to, yeah. He was still just taking an educated guess regarding the potential power Gotenks would wield-- good point, though. Piccolo, on the other hand, was just flat-out wrong...

Either way, my point is simply that SSJ Gotenks cannot be proven as any more powerful than SSJ3 Goku-- let alone far more powerful, as some have claimed.

juggerman
I agree they are on par

King Ben
Honestly if broly was good id consider him awesome but not better than goku

NemeBro
Ya'll niggas are gay.

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