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They meet in an open field to resolve their differences. Who kills who ?

Lucifer has way more hax. He wins.

Originally posted by ares834
Lucifer has way more hax. He wins. I guess the Zelda brigade fears this thread.

I'll bite. What can Lucifer do?

Originally posted by quanchi112
I guess the Zelda brigade fears this thread. Still got that hard-on for the LoZ fans?

Originally posted by The Scenario
I'll bite. What can Lucifer do? Physically he doesnt have the impressive stats, but SN is more about hax than stats. Mid-Demons are Supersonic and casually flip over 2 ton cars. Mid-Demons << High-Demons/Angels <<< Seraphs <<<< Archangels.

Copied from the other thread, removed the unneeded things:
"-He can instantly recover from anything non-fatal (not even flinching from getting stabbed), can come back from fatalities in short moments.
-Can teleport, read minds, Vulcan pinch and become invisible,
-He's able to create, edit and delete memories and, painfully to the victim, banish people to an unknown place until he wants them.
-Summoning electricity and fire, also internal flames.
-The ability to kill with a touch.
-Telekinesis to throw people like ragdolls or making their bodies explode. The latter was done to an Angel by snapping his fingers.
-White Light that can go from smacking bodies around to disintegrating strong creatures. From levelling small buildings to destroying towns.
-Last but not least, and how he (Gabriel, not Lucifer) was posing as a Trimester for millions of years.. Manipulation of time and reality.
He can make objects, locations and people from nothing with a gesture. Like trapping Dean and Sam in TV land. And for time there's being able to jump backwards and forwards in it at will (able to alter time if they want, one angle went back to stop the titanic from sinking) and impressively he can throw you into a 'Groundhogs day' time loop for as long as he wants (kept Sam in it for over a hundred days).

Back to the invulnerability.. The only things that could harm him are being burned with a special holy oil and weapons of heaven. Only thing that will kill him is an Archangel blade or Death's scythe, only other option is being more powerful."

Three notes; The Town blast was to be done by a powerful Angel, which is still below a Seraph. And a Seraph was able to give someone stage 4 cancer and removed anothers lungs, did so just to make a point. Lastly Lucifer and Michael's battle was going to raze the planet.

Going through point by point, edited for relevance, feel free to correct me if (when?) I get this wrong.



At least this version of Ganondorf wields a holy sword himself, and the Triforce of Power is a divine artifact, I imagine it's good enough to count as heavenly for these purposes. I feel safe in saying Ganondorf can hurt Lucifer at this time.



Ganondorf's mental defenses should be able to cover most of this, invisibility may be problematic, but Ganondorf can see spirits. Banishment without a sealing effect is Tuesday. Stupid Twilight Princess only rule.



Until I know the level of those powers I'll just say Ganondorf can take and dish out basically all of these, including the explode people one. Ganondorf has recovered from being exploded before.



This one is a serious obstacle for Ganondorf, not only for the town busting but because I assume white light is Super Holy. Because Archangel. It will hurt, but may not be impossible to recover from.



Time manipulation and reality warping auto-wins Lucifer the thread regardless of all other factors.

Not so, WW proves that he can resist time manipulation. And Ganon is a reality warper himself so hey.

The greatest concern here is this:

Eh, I dunno. In Wind Waker he did escape from a time lock, and I don't see a groundhog's day loop keeping him forever, but TP Ganondorf (why) has little defense to someone killing Twinrova before he's born and that's my main concern here.

And sure, I'll accept Triforce powers as decent enough use to resistance of reality warping. If Zant can do it...

Edit: I'm also iffy on statements about things razing planets. People throw around "destroy the world" a lot but when it actually happens you get a life wipe at best.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I guess the Zelda brigade fears this thread.

I would join this if I knew anything about Supernatural. Alas, I do not. Curious though, what is your beef with Zelda, and why the insistence on using partial/singular versions of these characters? I feel like your holding back.

Originally posted by The Scenario
At least this version of Ganondorf wields a holy sword himself, and the Triforce of Power is a divine artifact, I imagine it's good enough to count as heavenly for these purposes. I feel safe in saying Ganondorf can hurt Lucifer at this time. Its more the Oil itself than just being holy. Holy water affects Angels as it does us, nor would an Angel Blade (Heaven weapon carried by Angels, can kill other angels and everything below it).

(The oil must be ignited.. no thread use but worth saying)

Originally posted by The Scenario
Ganondorf's mental defenses should be able to cover most of this, invisibility may be problematic, but Ganondorf can see spirits. Banishment without a sealing effect is Tuesday. Stupid Twilight Princess only rule. I'll give you the mental defence and possible using Twilight to escape a BFR, still believe invisibility may be an issue. (Angels don't have souls iirc O.o )
I just see 'TP', not 'TP feats only'. Feel free :P

Originally posted by The Scenario
Until I know the level of those powers I'll just say Ganondorf can take and dish out basically all of these, including the explode people one. Ganondorf has recovered from being exploded before. Nothing on electricities scale. The flames do have some of perma-destroying a strong angel, just not sure if thats enough to claim it will defeat Dorf. Though I'm positive that this level of internal flames isnt something he can take sitting down.

The 'death touch' has the same properties as the White Light, so a bonus of added holyness. Still if your 'power' is on the characters level this won't work (An angel tried this on a high-demon and failed), so resistance can be debated for.

He has?

Originally posted by The Scenario
This one is a serious obstacle for Ganondorf, not only for the town busting but because I assume white light is Super Holy. Because Archangel. It will hurt, but may not be impossible to recover from. Straight from Heaven itself. Its the most deadly attack force in SN's arsenal.

Btw as it can actually be something Lucy can counter, how is Dorf recovering or coming back?

Originally posted by The Scenario
Time manipulation and reality warping auto-wins Lucifer the thread regardless of all other factors. Hyper-Hax at its best.

TV land: Sending them to star in their personal sitcom, then sent to a Japanese gameshow and spoofs of Grey's Anatomy, CSI: Miami and Knight Rider.. with Sam becoming the car :P

Originally posted by The Scenario
Edit: I'm also iffy on statements about things razing planets. People throw around "destroy the world" a lot but when it actually happens you get a life wipe at best. Well this is what would have happened to Earth if Lucifer did not fight Michael and just took over things . Note that Lucy had no intention of razing, but a fight with his brother would have done so as collateral. I mean just looking at what happens when no fight takes place gives us a hint to what would have happened if they went at it.




Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Not so, WW proves that he can resist time manipulation. And Ganon is a reality warper himself so hey. Lock =/= loop. Another note of the time skills is that in the same ep Dean dies out of the Time Loop, and 6 months later Sam begs Gabriel to save him. Gabe snaps his fingers and erases the last 6 months to give Dean his life back, with only Sam having memories of what happened (apart from other Angels, of course).

I don't recall him having Reality powers, or at least not a powerful version of such.

Originally posted by Sacred 117
I would join this if I knew anything about Supernatural. Alas, I do not. Curious though, what is your beef with Zelda, and why the insistence on using partial/singular versions of these characters? I feel like your holding back.

Quanchi has only played Twilight Princess, so he usually disallows anything that comes from other games. Even if its relevant and connects to Twilight Princess, it isn't allowed.

I'm not sure why he hates Zelda. Might just be that he hates "the Zelda brigade."



So it's a special thing made specifically to hurt angels? I'm still thinking Triforce powers will work to at least damage him, and the Sage's Sword has a record of leaving difficult to heal wounds.



Dunno about flames, then. Valoo's didn't harm him (forget the rules), and he's at least as divine as any of the other spirits in Zelda since he's technically a deity. It would have to be anti-evil to bypass Ganondorf's durability.

"More powerful" is a little vague and I imagine it can only really be measured in universe. Ganondorf has lots of magic resistance and if it failed on a demon it may not be the same kind of "holy" required. Wind Waker's Light Arrows turn into light/disintegrate things they hit and merely stun Ganondorf.

TP Ganondorf regularly ended up in several thousand pieces, but the moment I'm thinking of is Midna removing him from Zelda's body. Little Ganondorf chunks everywhere.



Granted I don't think Ganondorf can really stand up to a town sized blast of anti-evil and stay standing, but he's hard to kill permanently. TP has him reviving something like 3 times in the same fight even with the Master Sword. (Okay, so its more than enough for a win if this destroys Ganondorf's body.)



That's exactly the kind of thing that makes me doubt planetary destruction claims. Sure, populations may be wiped out but there are clearly cities still standing and there is a distinct lack of blasted hellscape. Yes it's destroyed, but it isn't terribly impressive on the power scale. Even if this is an alternate future where he just straight up won, I really can't say I fully believe the claim.



Not super high level, but Zant's fight included millions of gallons of water pulled from nowhere in addition to fully recreating several battlefields from the Light World inside the Twilight Realm. So not to the level of changing physics or altering reality, but it's nice creation and transmutation.

Originally posted by Sacred 117
I would join this if I knew anything about Supernatural. Alas, I do not. Curious though, what is your beef with Zelda, and why the insistence on using partial/singular versions of these characters? I feel like your holding back. The fanboys who tend to flock around the kiddie game.

Originally posted by The Scenario
I'll bite. What can Lucifer do? Blow his body up.

The cutscene during that fight where he stops to smack Zelda actually shows him enduring it with only a short pause.

Overlapping realities, permanent night time, whatever the heck he did to the freakin' Forest Temple in OoT.

Just adding to the list a little.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Quanchi has only played Twilight Princess, so he usually disallows anything that comes from other games. Even if its relevant and connects to Twilight Princess, it isn't allowed.

To discount the remainder is potential CIS because every wielder of the Triforce is eternally reincarnated, which effectively means they are the same person. The timeline may need to be taken into account assuming it makes any difference. Coincidentally, TP happens to be arguably Ganon's most feat-worthy game.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The fanboys who tend to flock around the kiddie game.

This tells me nothing. Is it the game you have a problem with or the fans? You can't blame a series for its followers.

For lulz: The true form of Angels are 1,000 ft tall according to Castiel :3

Originally posted by The Scenario
Quanchi has only played Twilight Princess, so he usually disallows anything that comes from other games. Even if its relevant and connects to Twilight Princess, it isn't allowed. I'm not sure why he hates Zelda. Might just be that he hates "the Zelda brigade."
Well he's like this with the LLLC, me, Neme, Juggerman, BlackZero.. several others in Movie/Comic vs.. guess he takes it personally when someone disagrees with him. Could be inadequacy giving the desire to claim victory and fluff his feathers of dominance. Would explain him sticking to one topic and creating situations that favour his side, as its not so much the thrill of winning as most with that desire are satisfied with the challenge over the win. Basically, Fight Club lol.

Originally posted by The Scenario
So it's a special thing made specifically to hurt angels? I'm still thinking Triforce powers will work to at least damage him, and the Sage's Sword has a record of leaving difficult to heal wounds. Angel Kryptonite, yeah. With Dorf's strength and that blade I'm not saying that Lucy won't take damage (he's in a human vessel, think Dante's type of durability), its keeping him from regenerating or just poofing away and back fully healed. Like how the Demon Knife can kill both the host and the monster inside (monster; works on things other than demons), the same knife at 1:13 does no harm to him.

See if we were talking about the MS, there'd be a better case to be made on the Sword front.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Dunno about flames, then. Valoo's didn't harm him (forget the rules), and he's at least as divine as any of the other spirits in Zelda since he's technically a deity. It would have to be anti-evil to bypass Ganondorf's durability.

"More powerful" is a little vague and I imagine it can only really be measured in universe. Ganondorf has lots of magic resistance and if it failed on a demon it may not be the same kind of "holy" required. Wind Waker's Light Arrows turn into light/disintegrate things they hit and merely stun Ganondorf.

TP Ganondorf regularly ended up in several thousand pieces, but the moment I'm thinking of is Midna removing him from Zelda's body. Little Ganondorf chunks everywhere. (Screw the rules!)I'd image that Heaven charged attacks would have that aspect by default.

It only failed on a demon because that Demons powers we're above that Angels. (one of the 3 most powerful demons in the verse at that time) It does them greater than Holy Water does, as its move divine.

He was in Twili particles at the time so.. not sure, potential for regeneration or would it be for that form only?

Originally posted by The Scenario
Granted I don't think Ganondorf can really stand up to a town sized blast of anti-evil and stay standing, but he's hard to kill permanently. TP has him reviving something like 3 times in the same fight even with the Master Sword. (Okay, so its more than enough for a win if this destroys Ganondorf's body.)
I believe that strong Angels can trap a spirit inside the body. Plus just by being around them, Lucifer was able to stop 2 top tier Pagen gods from escaping.. just incase he to form change or teleport/portal away

I think we might be getting whole body annihilation from this.

Originally posted by The Scenario
That's exactly the kind of thing that makes me doubt planetary destruction claims. Sure, populations may be wiped out but there are clearly cities still standing and there is a distinct lack of blasted hellscape. Yes it's destroyed, but it isn't terribly impressive on the power scale. Even if this is an alternate future where he just straight up won, I really can't say I fully believe the claim. Yes but keep in mind that that outcome had nothing to do with the planet razing they spoke about. It came from the brothers having the final battle that is Armageddon. All that image is just to show a minor effect of what happens. The actual damage from the battle would be immensely higher.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Not super high level, but Zant's fight included millions of gallons of water pulled from nowhere in addition to fully recreating several battlefields from the Light World inside the Twilight Realm. So not to the level of changing physics or altering reality, but it's nice creation and transmutation. ..oh right, Zant. Okay yeah, he has some Reality powers.



Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Overlapping realities, permanent night time, whatever the heck he did to the freakin' Forest Temple in OoT.

Just adding to the list a little. Doesnt compete to TV land ahah

Originally posted by The Scenario
That's exactly the kind of thing that makes me doubt planetary destruction claims. Sure, populations may be wiped out but there are clearly cities still standing and there is a distinct lack of blasted hellscape. Yes it's destroyed, but it isn't terribly impressive on the power scale. Even if this is an alternate future where he just straight up won, I really can't say I fully believe the claim.

That's because, in that future, Lucifer never had to battle Michael as Dean never gave in.

The show makes it undoubtedly clear, if the two were going to go at it the world would be destroyed. That's the reason Sam and Dean try to stop them from fighting. Its also why the Pagan Gods attempted to team up and prevent the battle. Plus, all the angels say it will destroy the planet. The fact is this "claim" is the whole point of the season.

^The claim/Armageddon is technically the whole point of the first 5 seasons Being a appropriate vessels for Lucifer and Michael was the reason Azazel killed their mother.

Did he actually know Sam was Lucifer's vessel? I was under the impression it was to give Sam psychic powers so he could open the huge devil trap and then kill Lilith to trigger the apocalypse.

Pretty sure he did as the perfect vessels for them had to be descendants of Cain and Abel, which the Winchester are. Which was why they were both told that predetermined to be the chose vessels before humanity formed.

Maybe the other special children were backups? Like how Michael could occupy John and Adam near-perfectly even if they weren't his true host.

Originally posted by ares834
That's because, in that future, Lucifer never had to battle Michael as Dean never gave in.

The show makes it undoubtedly clear, if the two were going to go at it the world would be destroyed. That's the reason Sam and Dean try to stop them from fighting. Its also why the Pagan Gods attempted to team up and prevent the battle. Plus, all the angels say it will destroy the planet. The fact is this "claim" is the whole point of the season.

I think I get it? The battle between Michael and Lucifer is supposed to cause Armageddon, just as collateral damage from the fight? Okay, yes, I can accept that the world would be destroyed. Really, my only concern is abut how complete that destruction is.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ApocalypseHow

Here are about 13 different classes of Apocalypse. I believe this is somewhere between Class 3 "Human extinction" and Class X "Earth is not there anymore." Maybe it would help if someone gave me the Class of this particular apocalypse.

Also, question. Sam is Lucifer's true vessel and that means Lucifer can use all of his powers when he normally couldn't? Or he gets stronger?



Indeed. Seems Lucifer is great on the magic resistance but relies on regen for physical damage. He's at least similar on the not dying from fatal wounds front. So the verdict here is Ganondorf can harm him, but lasting damage is difficult.

The unfortunate thing about the Sage's Sword is that we only have Ganondorf to compare it to, and it left an unhealable open wound on him despite him being able to recover from everything else, and he retains it while shifting forms or building a new body. Not sure on the explanation behind that one.



Alright then, if it deals more damage to demons it can likely hurt Ganondorf. I still don't like the 'more powerful means immune' thing, though, since it's going to be hard to determine Ganondorf's power in another verse's terms. He's stuck with his base resistance here.

Well, that fight went: Willing particle form --> possess host --> unwilling removal from host --> reform body from particles --> transform into beast --> die --> spirit form --> reform body again --> Master Sword through the chest --> die? The first reformation was after he willingly took a particle form, but was forced to abandon Zelda's body unwillingly. The second one is a clear revival, granted he didn't explode but Beast Ganon's corpse did burst into flames.



If Lucifer starts with something that high tier he could win pretty quickly. It's just hard to tell with Ganondorf sometimes, never know when he'll just make a new body. Though that would likely affect his spirit form too.



Enough to put him in 'powerful enough to not be affected' tier?

Will reply to the rest later.

I'd give it a 4 to 6 without getting greedy. Could make claims of mote destruction as it could be possible here, but I'm a man of evidence.
And I'm pretty sure that the only difference between a vessel and a true vessel is survivability. The replacement Lucy takes needed to constantly consume demon blood to keep his body strong enough to contain his power, even then it was deteriorating. Suitable ones have been shown to last much longer, unknown if they would eventually break down. True vessels are permanent as seen with Gabe who kept his for milenia with no demon blood or any negative effects.

Originally posted by The Scenario
I think I get it? The battle between Michael and Lucifer is supposed to cause Armageddon, just as collateral damage from the fight? Okay, yes, I can accept that the world would be destroyed. Really, my only concern is abut how complete that destruction is.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ApocalypseHow

Here are about 13 different classes of Apocalypse. I believe this is somewhere between Class 3 "Human extinction" and Class X "Earth is not there anymore." Maybe it would help if someone gave me the Class of this particular apocalypse.

Not really sure why it would matter. Either way is well beyond anything Ganon has shown.

Originally posted by ares834
Not really sure why it would matter. Either way is well beyond anything Ganon has shown.

Eh, not necessarily. Ganondorf can "destroy the world" but how he would do so is useless in combat. Endless night plus eternal storms tend to do that.

I don't trust end of the world claims simply because "post-apocalyptic" is a setting that exists. Something 'destroyed the world' but there are still people that live on and occasionally manage to rebuild. Wind Waker is one such post-apocalypse setting. Ganondorf got loose, the hero didn't show up, and the gods stepped in to stop him. They sank the continents beneath the ocean and destroyed everything but Hyrule, which was sealed underwater in a time lock. Then Ganondorf comes back anyway.

I guess what I'm saying here is that the apocalypse failed to stop Ganondorf. Thus the severity of said apocalypse matters to me.



No need, BloodRain. I do think Lucifer wins, it's just 'end of the world' stuff bugs me.

Just remembered this.. And okay then. Still curious to the TFs effect and protection, if it could harm Lucy.

Originally posted by The Scenario




I do think Lucifer wins. Victory.

Creating a thread that a character you dislike loses and not even arguing in it is not a victory, Quan, it's petty.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Creating a thread that a character you dislike loses and not even arguing in it is not a victory, Quan, it's petty. Quit crying just because your leader admits he loses. Poor Link. Victory is mine.

No, no, I think I'm going to keep pointing out just how butthurt Zelda has you. It amuses me. You make what, one new Zelda thread every week, and you don't even debate in them, you just repeat debunked arguments and insult people, characters, and games.

You even follow me into threads that involve no characters you know anything about. haermm

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
No, no, I think I'm going to keep pointing out just how butthurt Zelda has you. It amuses me. You make what, one new Zelda thread every week, and you don't even debate in them, you just repeat debunked arguments and insult people, characters, and games.

You even follow me into threads that involve no characters you know anything about. haermm You are upset scenario has agreed. Victory ver your leader. Reveling in it, lightning timer.

Yes, the haermm smiley is a sure sign I'm just fuming! Get over it, Quan. What has you soooo upset with Zelda characters that you feel legitimate glee when someone says 'hey, yeah, someone who can waste an entire planet can beat one'?

The only one upset here is you, and you've been upset forever. Get over it, seek therapy.

If this is anyone's 'victory' its Lucy's or mine.. Quan you were just the audience here, don't ride ze coattails.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You are upset scenario has agreed. Victory ver your leader. Reveling in it, lightning timer.

Quanchi, you can't just declare me leader of an unofficial organization like that. There are a lot of unofficial channels we'd have to go through, and it would probably have to go to an unofficial vote.

Right now, I'm like...the scribe? Unofficially, I mean.

Scenario, you are the unofficial bearer of three separate titles within our unofficial, loosely affiliated organization.

Emissary, Head of the Scriptorium, Keeper of Knowledge.

As our (unofficial) founder and spokesman, I unofficially move to extend (unofficial) membership to NATE and BR. They could take up the positions of disciples under FinalAnswer, the (unofficial) prophet of Linkism.

Pretty sure Lucifer wins.

Never watched the show but he sounds impressive based on what I've read elsewhere.

Dude solo's a hotel of pagan gods from Odin to Baldur. But it's his implied abilities (from his station as an archangel) that really cement his reputation as a badass.

Lucifer wtfstomps.

LOL@the hate though