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Most current versions for both MM and Beyonder. Which team wins?

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/MM_zps808b5a0f.jpg
&
http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/BE_zpsa166255d.jpg

vs

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/DS_zps94f2087b.jpg
&
http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/SM_zps1fc41166.jpg

assuming this post-illuminati retcon (mutant/inhuman) beyonder (which is the one shown in the picture) he is powerful but he lacks feats, it was mentioned that he's omnipotent and omniscient but he didn't display any feats on a universal scale (only statements about him defying all space and time, natural order of the universe, etc..) only planet level feats, we even see him kneel before black bolt.............molecule man isn't any better tbh, in dark avengers he was effortlessly owning everyone, killed sentry 3 times, then sentry suddenly managed to defeat him in the end....

on the other hand, it's actually stated that destiny doesn't ever use his full powers, so im not sure what's the point of having him in a battle thread, though dream does have multiversal feats (indirectly).

so im siding with the dc team, based on feats.

edit

Originally posted by operator616
assuming this post-illuminati retcon (mutant/inhuman) beyonder (which is the one shown in the picture) he is powerful but he lacks feats, it was mentioned that he's omnipotent and omniscient but he didn't display any feats on a universal scale (only statements about him defying all space and time, natural order of the universe, etc..) only planet level feats, we even see him kneel before black bolt.............molecule man isn't any better tbh, in dark avengers he was effortlessly owning everyone, killed sentry 3 times, then sentry suddenly managed to defeat him in the end....

on the other hand, it's actually stated that destiny doesn't ever use his full powers, so im not sure what's the point of having him in a battle thread, though dream does have multiversal feats (indirectly).

so im siding with the dc team, based on feats.

Originally posted by operator616

assuming this post-illuminati retcon (mutant/inhuman) beyonder
(which is the one shown in the picture) he is powerful but he lacks
feats, it was mentioned that he's omnipotent and omniscient but he
didn't display any feats on a universal scale (only statements about
him defying all space and time, natural order of the universe, etc..)
only planet level feats
Hey there friend. I have to say, just cause the story didn't call for
Beyonder to do more, doesn't mean he was unable. Now, had he
tried to do something more and could not, then we could say
something. So, the statements stand, since they're not off from
what Beyonder's always been able to do.

Anyway, there is no such thing as an Inhuman/Mutant Beyonder,
so I'm very glad that dumb shit in Illuminati was cast away
as a mind screw by Beyonder, they never followed up as to why though.
But every Bio after Illuminati has Beyonder and Owen as Cube Being powers.

Also, the Spiderman mini recounting Secret Wars solidifies this.
(Beyonder's power remade All Creation, All Space-Time,
Everything/Everyone ... 3 times in one nano second)
Originally posted by operator616

we even see him kneel before black bolt.............
This doesn't mean anything concerning Beyonder's power.
Beyonder could've blinked Black Bolt out of existence.
Originally posted by operator616

molecule man, in dark avengers he was
effortlessly owning everyone, killed sentry 3 times

Originally posted by operator616

then sentry suddenly managed to defeat him in the end....
Owen wanted to "fail" (lose) subconsciously towards the end,
he also just wanted to be left alone, blah, blah.
(to me, that's just a writer's wiggle PIS to defeat Owen and/or finish the story)

mind screw up? when was this stated exactly?

what does spiderman and secret wars have to do with any of this? it was a retelling of jim shooter's secret wars, thus it isn't canon, and im sure you know that so why did you bring it up?

regarding owen.....it was stated that he wanted to fail at the end of dark avengers #11 (a reference to his previous encounters, not future) while his fight with sentry came in dark avengers #12 , and nothing of the sort was mentioned.

however, i do have my doubts, as of 2005 (as stated in new avengers: most wanted files handbook) MM's state of mind has been fluctuating which directly affects his power. there's also the fact that 1 page forward after the sentry vs owen fight, it is stated that owen couldn't differentiate between what's real and what's not.

so those may have affected him, or maybe not......there is no confirmation, however.

Originally posted by operator616

mind screw up? when was this stated exactly?
... darn, I haven't linked to that Bendis interview in a long time,
but it's definitely one of these:

http://www.bookslut.com/features/2009_02_014023.php
http://www.avclub.com/articles/brian-michael-bendis,14138/
http://www.blazedent.com/editorialsinterviews/interview_4.php
http://blog.newsarama.com/category/news/interviews/Brian Bendis

I haven't the time or patience to seek out that old info, so do you.

Although,
the Fact that there's never been a handbook that acknowledges this,
and every Handbook that was published after Illuminati
has Beyonder as the same ol Cube being.
Originally posted by operator616

what does spiderman and secret wars have to do with any of
this? it was a retelling of jim shooter's secret wars, thus it isn't
canon, and im sure you know that so why did you bring it up?
It was actually depicting showings we never got to see in the original SW.

Also, I brought it up cause its part of my point.
so ... proof of its non-canonicity. (good luck)

Beyonder is still the same ol Beyonder that came from the Beyond Realm,
in the 2006 - 2012 Handbooks and Marvunapp likewise.

Recently On Panel, in Hickman's run, we saw 4 Alternate Beyonders,
and they were all Cube beings, with the same ol, Battleworld creation,
same ol' "anything you wish, I can give you" blah, blah ... same Beyonder.
Originally posted by operator616

regarding owen.....it was stated that he wanted to fail at the
end of dark avengers #11 (a reference to his previous encounters,
not future) while his fight with sentry came in dark avengers #12 ,
and nothing of the sort was mentioned.
... "his previous encounters?" ...

So,
show us where Owen was defeated "previously" before Sentry ...

Anyway, you won't be able to do that so Owen wanted to "Fail"
and he did, against Sentry, and Sentry alone.
Originally posted by operator616

however, i do have my doubts, as of 2005 (as stated in new
avengers: most wanted files handbook) MM's state of mind has
been fluctuating which directly affects his power. there's also the
fact that 1 page forward after the sentry vs owen fight, it is stated
that owen couldn't differentiate between what's real and what's not.

Now this is a sound post. Although it matters little in the grand scheme
cause Owen wanted to lose anyway on panel.
But I definitely agree Owen was mentally unstable in that arc,
I've been posting that fact for Years now.

Writer decided to use the Nuke distraction as Sentry's plot to grab Owen,
but then while Sentry holds Owen, it's still Owen who fixes
everything including re-creating the Space fleet, the country
and all the dead Heroes. So when Sentry banished Owen's form,
Owen didn't return cause he didn't want to.

This has to be a fact, cause if Sentry with limited understanding of
molecular manipulation was able to re-form 3 times,
Owen, who Sentry himself knew was better
and even asked for his help to fix everything,
most definitely had to been able to as well.

Team 1 wins.

If MM and Beyonder are fighting at this level :
http://s15.postimg.org/nwc3lk4lz/2034988_post_mm_vs_b.jpg
Team Two takes it with ease.

Originally posted by zopzop
If MM and Beyonder are fighting at this level :
http://s15.postimg.org/nwc3lk4lz/2034988_post_mm_vs_b.jpg
Team Two takes it with ease.
You might as well start claiming that Team 2 would beat anyone ever out there, considering that few beings in comics have legit multiversal scale feats, and even fewer go beyond that.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
You might as well start claiming that Team 2 would beat anyone ever out there, considering that few beings in comics have legit multiversal scale feats, and even fewer go beyond that.
Even post retcon Beyonder bringing his "A Game" could solo Team 1 :
Originally posted by Galan007
From Spider-Man: The Secret Wars 04...


Doom tells the tale of how he forcibly beat the Beyonder, and usurped his powers:

http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/8725/beyonder1.th.jpg http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/4125/beyonder2.th.jpg

But before claiming said powers, they took a detour and entered Spider-Man.

---

With Beyonder's powers, Spidey was able to..

a.) Physically rip Ultron in half -- quite a feat considering that version of Ultron was composed of primary Adamantium.
b.) Owns every 'villain' involved in SW, including Molecule Man and Galactus.
c.) Demonstrates time manipulation as a casual thing.

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/3059/beyonder6.th.jpg http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/4305/beyonder7.th.jpg


How do I know Spidey was manipulating time? Because he only possessed the Beyonder's powers for one billionth of a second in real time:

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/9836/beyonder8.th.jpg


-Spidey-
"In that moment, I gained the powers... I was everywhere, and everything, and everyone... In that moment, which is this moment, I remade ALL of creation":

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/3306/beyonder3.th.jpg

Beyonder's power then flows into Doom.

---

-Doom-
"This power I now possess reaches into the past, the future, ALL time and space":

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/2250/beyonder4.th.jpg


Lastly, Doom knew that his own doubts fueled by Beyonder's powers would ultimately be his undoing. But before he was conquered, he subtly altered reality:

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/728/beyonder5.th.jpg


Taking into account all of the above, Beyonder's retcon(s) are once again... Questionable. srsly
A total noob like Spiderman remade all creation using Beyonder's power.

^^ ... I don't care who wins but to follow up on that:

So did Wolverine before Spiderman and then Dr Doom after Spiderman,
all done in a nano second.

(notice how Doom and Spidey are finishing each others' sentences)

Originally posted by zopzop
Even post retcon Beyonder bringing his "A Game" could solo Team 1 :

A total noob like Spiderman remade all creation using Beyonder's power.
Yup, and somehow that is supposed to be impressive enough that Beyonder alone could solo both Destiny and Dream? Nevermind the fact that Dr Destiny has performed similar feats with just a tiny fraction of Dream's power, you actually think the sh1t performed by Spider and Wolvey in a Secret Wars retelling somehow gives Team 2 such a huge advantage that just one of them could solo a pair of multiversal Abstracts?

Zopfail ftw.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Nevermind the fact that Dr Destiny has performed similar feats with just a tiny fraction of Dream's power
Scans?



No, Beyonder isn't even the most powerful from Team Two, MM is. I was stating that MM and Beyonder is overkill, Beyonder by himself would crush Team One.

Originally posted by zopzop

Scans?

Don't have the pertinent issues at hand, but both Dr. Destiny and the Red King have farted out entire universes using just fragments of Dream's power.
Originally posted by zopzop

No, Beyonder isn't even the most powerful from Team Two, MM is. I was stating that MM and Beyonder is overkill, Beyonder by himself would crush Team One.
The same MM that got crushed by Sentry? And what's the point of using the Secret Wars retelling to make the Beyonder sound so uber, and then turnaround 180 degrees and claim that Owen is the real threat of the 2, when in the same Secret Wars retelling , the Beyonder-powered Spider-Man owned Owen effortlessly?

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Don't have the pertinent issues at hand, but both Dr. Destiny and the Red King have farted out entire universes using just fragments of Dream's power.
Mmhmm. Yet Spiderman remade all creation using Beyonder's power.


MM suffers from severe mental issues. MM unleashed wrecked Beyonder and their fight was trans-multiversal.

At the time Spiderman/Beyonder owned MM, he was still under his self imposed limitations. This was explained in the FF annual that featured the MM/Beyonder fight.

^^

Originally posted by zopzop

Mmhmm. Yet Spiderman remade all creation using Beyonder's power.

The difference being that Red King and Dr. Destiny have performed similar feats using fractions of Dream's power.
Originally posted by zopzop

MM suffers from severe mental issues. MM unleashed wrecked Beyonder and their fight was trans-multiversal.

At the time Spiderman/Beyonder owned MM, he was still under his self imposed limitations. This was explained in the FF annual that featured the MM/Beyonder fight.
He wasn't really playing around when the Sentry finally got a hold of him.

Which pretty much means that the retelling is unusable as evidence of any sorts in a forum fight.

@Mr Master:

2011 handbook says that beyonder claims to be a nascent cosmic cube - inhuman mutant:

http://i.imgur.com/10mWGN5.jpg?1

so how is the miniseries relevant to the current beyonder?

ok, first of all you gotta focus on what im saying instead of posting these irrelevant faces.....i never said that owen lost to sentry in his previous encounters, in fact i clearly said he killed sentry 3 times.....what i meant is that he wanted to fail.....he wanted to be found (in his previous encounters despite the fact that he didn't fail) , i trust i shouldn't post that scan now should i?

@zopzop:

JLA classified #36:

batman says that materioptikon (dreamstone) created multiple realities:

http://i.imgur.com/4yFm2qe.jpg

earlier in the issue it's stated that there are infinite possibilities (infinite possible universes)

http://i.imgur.com/YT97H6d.jpg

sandman #7, though it is part of dream's power........

http://i.imgur.com/2JAKc1p.jpg

......it's not a tiny fraction since later in the issue it was revealed it contained most of his power.

anyway, are we also going to ignore MM's low showings for instance? like in fantastic four #373:

http://i.imgur.com/rHPKWyE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/hBEx3nY.jpg

there are other showings like this ^ let me know if you want them.

this isn't a stomp at all.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
The difference being that Red King and Dr. Destiny have performed similar feats using fractions of Dream's power.
I want to see the scans in context because there's a lot of "fluff" involving the Endless and other Vertigo characters like Michael and Lucifer.


It has nothing to do with "playing around". MM has self imposed mental issues that limit his power. At first I was even harassing Mr. M about post retcon MM's showings, but on panel evidence says I was wrong. During his entire history, the only limit to his power was himself (stated and shown on panel). Once those self imposed limitations are shattered, all bets are off.

The post retcon MM/Beyonder fight was incredible and the writer made it clear by on panel showings AND the TVA that the damage was greater than multiversal in scope.

The insane thing is, even his FEATS during Secret Wars I/II were never retconed. That means Beyonder really did wreck MULTIVERSAL wide damage with nothing more than a temper tantrum and MM RESTORED all that damage with nothing more than a raised finger, MM gathered all the free energy in the MULTIVERSE to enforce a dome of his, etc...

Likewise Beyonder really did KILL DEATH and later restored her, proving that he can indeed take out a concept (so Dream and Destiny are phucked). This amazingly wasn't retconned either (since it's mentioned even in their handbook entries) and this was cemented as fact when it made a cameo in the Dimension of Manifestations in a Quasar issue (the Mighty of the Multiverse begging Beyonder not to kill Death).

So if Beyonder is that powerful, how much MORE powerful is an unleashed MM? There's no way Team Two loses.

@operator616
The low showings are because of MM's self imposed mental blocks. It's all explained on panel.

Originally posted by zopzop
It has nothing to do with "playing around". MM has self imposed mental issues that limit his power. At first I was even harassing Mr. M about post retcon MM's showings, but on panel evidence says I was wrong. During his entire history, the only limit to his power was himself (stated and shown on panel). Once those self imposed limitations are shattered, all bets are off.

The post retcon MM/Beyonder fight was incredible and the writer made it clear by on panel showings AND the TVA that the damage was greater than multiversal in scope.

The insane thing is, even his FEATS during Secret Wars I/II were never retconed. That means Beyonder really did wreck MULTIVERSAL wide damage with nothing more than a temper tantrum and MM RESTORED all that damage with nothing more than a raised finger, MM gathered all the free energy in the MULTIVERSE to enforce a dome of his, etc...

Likewise Beyonder really did KILL DEATH and later restored her, proving that he can indeed take out a concept (so Dream and Destiny are phucked). This amazingly wasn't retconned either (since it's mentioned even in their handbook entries) and this was cemented as fact when it made a cameo in the Dimension of Manifestations in a Quasar issue (the Mighty of the Multiverse begging Beyonder not to kill Death).

So if Beyonder is that powerful, how much MORE powerful is an unleashed MM? There's no way Team Two loses.
Except he really didn't appear to be suffering from the jimmies when Sentry owned him like a weak feeb.

Yes, and somehow that fight alone should be used as the sole parameter for gauging how these characters would stomp anyone in a forum fight, because honestly speaking, how many characters even have multiversal scale feats, let alone beyond that?

If the Beyonder is indeed a legit trans-multiversal powerhouse in the world of zoplogic, what do you think that makes the Great Powers of the universe, who were said to be even greater?

Yeah, killing a concept like Death who's not without her fair share of low showings suddenly means that the Beyonder can easily phuck up the Endless who don't even operate in the same manner in DC as Death does in Marvel.

Powerful enough to get punked by an unleashed Sentry. Somehow that equates to either of them soloing Team 1 all on their lonesome.

Originally posted by operator616
@Mr Master:

2011 handbook says that beyonder claims to be a nascent cosmic cube - inhuman mutant:
http://i.imgur.com/10mWGN5.jpg?1
so how is the miniseries relevant to the current beyonder?
... So, what's this supposed to prove? Nothing! imo.

That silly exceprt clearly tells you that he "claims" either.

Anyway, this Handbook (4 years after Illuminati) fact isn't a claim, it states info directly:



(my other handbook examples are not cropped,
but I'll return with 4 more separate Handbooks)

That aside though, On Panel >>> handbooks,
and while you're tiny excerpt is ambiguous,
this below On Panel depiction is not.

... hey, wudda ya know, ... the Illuminati and Beyonder!

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16285384_Alt_B2.jpg

So, speaking of the Illuminati, there are the Illuminati from 3 separate UniverseS,
dealing with Alternate Beyonders who all share the same basic old-school Beyonder history,
"from beyond" ... "sentient Cubes" .. blah, blah.

Not a even a hint or peep about any Inhuman-Mutant comedy.
Originally posted by operator616

ok, first of all you gotta focus on what im saying instead of posting these irrelevant
faces.....i never said that owen lost to sentry in his previous encounters, in fact i
clearly said he killed sentry 3 times.....what i meant is that he wanted to fail.....he
wanted to be found (in his previous encounters despite the fact that he didn't fail) , i
trust i shouldn't post that scan now should i?
Ok, and I know what you said.

I said Owen wanted to lose to Sentry.
You said, Owen said that regarding "previous encounters" which is incorrect.
I then asked, where did Owen lose, before losing to Sentry?
That's it.

Anyway, when Owen said this: (second to last page of #11)

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16285428_Owen.jpg

There is no doubt, the dialogue context points to the Future, Not the Past.

"You want to be found" ... "You're begging to be found here"

Next issue, aside from still mind screwing Osborn he didn't hurt another soul,
aside from exploding Sentry one last time before losing to him.

Yea, this is pretty cut and dry here.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Except he really didn't appear to be suffering from the jimmies when Sentry owned him like a weak feeb.
Except he probably did. He was having a little mental breakdown and talking to imaginary demons/characters before the Avengers showed up.


It wasn't that one time. Don't you see? I gave you examples of their Secret War I/II stuff that wasn't retconned and was multiversal in scope.


A) The great powers of the universe were BEGGING Beyonder not to kill Death. This was never retconned! Not only is it mentioned in their Handbook entries, it's CONFIRMED on panel in an issue of Quasar :
http://s15.postimg.org/48iyhetzr/Dimension_of_Manifestations.jpg
Why couldn't the "Great Powers" stop him?
B) Regarding Death, everyone has low showings so bringing that up is meaningless. DC's GOD has freaking low showings.
C) When Beyonder killed 616 Death it affected things throughout the MULTIVERSE :
http://s9.postimg.org/6fdn5tfqj/multi.jpg http://s9.postimg.org/d4k6lu12j/multi2.jpg
616 Death is multiversal otherwise why would her destruction affect the entire MULTIVERSE? And if he can destroy her, none of the Endless are safe because of their "multiversal" status.


Yeah, MM's self imposed mental blocks weaken him greatly that's no secret. MM unleashed AND Beyonder on the same side vs Team Endless is spite against the Endless.

So, ... on top of being mentally unstable!

... and on top of literally wanting to lose during the Sentry comedy ...

... Owen also de-powered himself at the end of the Post-Beyonder fight:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16285434_Owen2.jpg

yawn

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Team 1 wins.

@zopzop: the point wasn't that he was controlled by the puppet master......aron put him in a void with no molecules.....with a gesture......do you seriously believe that's beyond dream's ability?

MM was also imprisoned at the raft, 2005 handbook

http://i.imgur.com/JcgulIE.jpg?1

we all see this in new avengers (in case you don't have it feel free to ask for scans)

@Mr Master:

.....how exactly doesn't it prove anything? it's stated right there in the handbook, though im not going to disregard your evidence either, and i do acknowledge it, im undecided as of now.......if you could find me the part of your 4 interviews that you linked me to (currently i don't have the time to go through them all), that suggests it was a mind screw, then ill be fully convinced.

except you missed the statement that says "you killed all those people" - past tense - which comes right after the "you want to fail" statement. so it's referring to his previous encounters.

and i already said that i do have my doubts about this, but it was never shown that he wanted to lose in his fight with sentry......but i guess we'll have to agree to disagree.....because you never change your mind.

Originally posted by operator616
@zopzop: the point wasn't that he was controlled by the puppet master......aron put him in a void with no molecules.....with a gesture......do you seriously believe that's beyond dream's ability?

Operator, my friend, repeat after me, SELF IMPOSED MENTAL BLOCKS. Mr. Master beat me to it and already posted the scan.

Originally posted by zopzop

Except he probably did. He was having a little mental breakdown and talking to imaginary demons/characters before the Avengers showed up.


It wasn't that one time. Don't you see? I gave you examples of their Secret War I/II stuff that wasn't retconned and was multiversal in scope.


A) The great powers of the universe were BEGGING Beyonder not to kill Death. This was never retconned! Not only is it mentioned in their Handbook entries, it's CONFIRMED on panel in an issue of Quasar :
http://s15.postimg.org/48iyhetzr/Dimension_of_Manifestations.jpg
Why couldn't the "Great Powers" stop him?
B) Regarding Death, everyone has low showings so bringing that up is meaningless. DC's GOD has freaking low showings.
C) When Beyonder killed 616 Death it affected things throughout the MULTIVERSE :
http://s9.postimg.org/6fdn5tfqj/multi.jpg http://s9.postimg.org/d4k6lu12j/multi2.jpg
616 Death is multiversal otherwise why would her destruction affect the entire MULTIVERSE? And if he can destroy her, none of the Endless are safe because of their "multiversal" status.


Yeah, MM's self imposed mental blocks weaken him greatly that's no secret. MM unleashed AND Beyonder on the same side vs Team Endless is spite against the Endless.
I go by proof while you go by probabilities.

You did nothing of the sort. That feat is well beyond what most Abstract-level characters in comics have ever achieved.

The Great Powers of the Universe were eventually revealed to be his superiors. All canon.

Death's low showings are the worst, which is my point all along. Loki was able to trap her and make everyone immortal.

Are you really that retarded? Because Beyonder kills Death in the original Shooter era and this affects the multiverse, somehow that means that the modern day 616-Death is also multiversal. Truly one of the most horridly constructed arguments I've had the displeasure of reading.

Nope, there is no proof to suggest that he was operating under self-imposed inhibitions when Sentry overpowered him. You need to bring solid proof to the table, not just go off assumptions and probabilities.

edit

sorry for the double post, got mixed up, anyway:

Originally posted by zopzop
Operator, my friend, repeat after me, SELF IMPOSED MENTAL BLOCKS. Mr. Master beat me to it and already posted the scan.

except you're missing one huge detail, the scan Mr Master provided is from fantastic four annual #27 (1994) while the scans i posted are from fantastic four #373 (1993) so what he posted is completely irrelevant.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I go by proof while you go by probabilities.
What probabilities? Mr. M posted the scan of MM powering himself down at the end of the Beyonder/MM multiversal throwdown. Even in the Avengers showdown much later he was having mental issues conversing with things that were just figments of his imagination.


Yup, what does that tell you about MM and Beyonder even POST RETCON (also seeing how much of their multiversal stuff from SW I/II was NOT retconned).


Yet they couldn't stop him from killing Death or undoing the damage he did, also canon.


Which really isn't much of a point since DC's God (you know the CREATOR of the Endless and Angels) also has pathetic showings. It's comics and it happens.


Shooter Era? What has that have to do with anything. It was never retconned and confirmed in Handbooks and on panel in an issue of Quasar. Beyonder wiped out a multiversal concept : FACT.




His mental state (having an entire converstaion with figments of his own imagination) and the fact that he trapped his "unleashed" self at the end of the MM/Beyonder fight in the FF Annual (scan kindly provided by Mr. M) is all on panel proof.

@ operator616
Operator, read the issues he appeared in PRIOR to that FF issue you mentioned. He had imposed mental blocks on himself again. As soon as he regained the portion of his power he hid in Marsha, he thought he couldn't affect organic molecules and stuff.

im assuming you're referring to this? in which case he says that he's back to his OLD limitations, though he did say that space-time warping portion was gone

http://i.imgur.com/pDUTh6f.jpg?1

which is funny considering that at the end of fantastic four annual #27 when he converted back to his proper self he mentioned that bending laws of nature at a whim is easy stuff for him:

http://i.imgur.com/zrIhiEl.jpg

Originally posted by operator616

the point wasn't that he was controlled by the puppet
master......aron put him in a void with no molecules.....with a
gesture......
Stipulated scenarios. Like jobbing his ass off against Aron,
while also like a fool,
telling Aron about his limitations not being able to control organic molecules.

Next.
Originally posted by operator616

.....how exactly doesn't it prove anything? it's stated right there
in the handbook, though im not going to disregard your evidence
either, and i do acknowledge it, im undecided as of now.......if you
could find me the part of your 4 interviews that you linked me to
(currently i don't have the time to go through them all), that
suggests it was a mind screw, then ill be fully convinced.
That excerpt you popped up with does not state anything definitive,
and is superseded by several Handbooks and better yet many On Panel occurances.
Originally posted by operator616

except you missed the statement that says "you killed all those
people" - past tense - which comes right after the "you want to fail"
statement. so it's referring to his previous encounters.
LOL! at you telling me I "missed" anything.

I also can't believe you're serious so I'll laugh with you cause you
almost had me going there.

But lest the innocent onlookers get confused:

Owen WANTED to lose ... "You want to fail"

Owen WANTED to be found ... "You're begging to be found"

How the would anyone see this as a reference to "previous encounters?"

When "previously" he Never "failed" at anything, and lost to no one! 007-thefuk

Owen LOST or verbatim: "Failed" ... After he made the statement Next issue to Sentry.
Originally posted by operator616

and i already said that i do have my doubts about this, but it was never shown
that he wanted to lose in his fight with sentry......but i guess we'll have to agree to
disagree.....because you never change your mind.
This is old news to me friend, I'm not debating here, only shining the light.
Originally posted by operator616

except you're missing one huge detail, the scan Mr Master provided is
from fantastic four annual #27 (1994) while the scans i posted are
from fantastic four #373 (1993) so what he posted is completely
irrelevant.

if you are of the opinion that owen was holding back and/or wanted to lose his battle with sentry, because of the statements made in this scene:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16286436/img820.jpg.html
...then i respectfully disagree. that information was being fed to owen by lifeforms he created(which mimicked his split personalities.) owen's self-proclaimed "friends" had a nasty habit of trying to mindf*ck him almost every time they appeared on panel together. i wouldn't trust their comments at all-- especially when owen himself doubted their boasts in that very same scene.

here is another example of owen flat-out ignoring/disagreeing with his 'friends':
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16286559/Dark_Avengers_12_006.jpg.html
clearly owen's 'normal' psyche is the most dominate/reliable one he's got.

aside from that, owen was immensely enraged when he battled sentry, and certainly didn't allude to the notion that he purposefully threw the fight. here's the entire battle from start to finish:







owen appears to be in 'berserker rage mode' and not holding back sentry then proceeds to overpower owen with molecular manipulation of his own(a feat which shocks owen), before atomically dispersing him

however, owen's loss *may* have had something to do with sentry's molecules(and by proxy, powers) in general. after all, they were much different/stranger than anything owen had ever come across:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16286544/img811.jpg.html
...which is quite amazing given the plethora of entities that owen has encountered over the years(beyonder, LT, eternity, uatu, and kubik to name a few.)


either way, that is still not a low showing for owen by any stretch of the imagination. sentry was just that powerful during siege-- he literally defined a haxxed-out/dues-ex-machina character.

just my 2 cents.

Wait, so now Owen purposefully lost his fight to Sentry? Lol. I thought it was pretty clear that Voided out Bob was just flat out more powerful but less experienced.

T1

If anyone is interested, Sandman Overture will reveal why Morpheus was captured so easily all those years ago.

oDdfYZkN_tI#at=116

Originally posted by Galan007

if you are of the opinion that owen was holding back and/or
wanted to lose his battle with sentry, because of the statements
made in this scene:
...then i respectfully disagree . that information was being fed to
owen by lifeforms he created(which mimicked his split
personalities.) owen's self-proclaimed "friends" had a nasty habit of
trying to mindf*ck him almost every time they appeared on panel
together. i wouldn't trust their comments at all-- especially when
owen himself doubted their boasts in that very same scene.
here is another example of owen flat-out ignoring/disagreeing with his 'friends':
clearly owen's 'normal' psyche is the most dominate/reliable one he's got.
aside from that, owen was immensely enraged when he battled
sentry, and certainly didn't allude to the notion that he purposefully
threw the fight. here's the entire battle from start to finish
owen appears to be in 'berserker rage mode' and not holding
back sentry then proceeds to overpower owen with
molecular manipulation of his own(a feat which shocks owen),
before atomically dispersing him
just my 2 cents.
I am of the opinion, and I respectfully disagree with your perspective likewise.
I don't see any doubts imo, I see Owen being informed, about how he feels inside.

The other scan of "another example" doesn't add anything imo.
Owen's Dormy creation told him: "take the world, it's yours to have"
and Owen replied: "I don't want the world, I want here" ...
means nothing to me.

Anyway ...
Owen wanted to lose sub-consciously, since his friends were aspects of such.
So, it's no surprise "consciously" he would not enjoy that when he actually lost.

Actually, I prefer to say,
Owen eased the win for Sentry, rather than outright handing it to him.
Originally posted by Galan007

however, owen's loss *may* have had something to do with
sentry's molecules(and by proxy, powers) in general. after all, they
were much different/stranger than anything owen had ever come across:
...which is quite amazing given the plethora of entities that
owen has encountered over the years(beyonder, LT, eternity, uatu,
and kubik to name a few.)
Smells like PIS.
Originally posted by Galan007

either way, that is still not a low showing for owen by any stretch of
the imagination. sentry was just that powerful during siege--
he literally defined a haxxed-out/dues-ex-machina character.
... meh, Sentry was obliterated on 3 separate occasions by Owen,
and at the end, Sentry even got a clean shot at Owen,
(same looking energy he used to defeat Owen)
and Owen immediately recovered/retaliated & exploded Sentry a Third time:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16287646_O1.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16287649_O2.jpg

Then, the same looking orange energy has a lasting affect 3 pages later. lol
It seems to me, sub-consciously Owen had enough, and it was time to go away,
and Sentry was the only one powerful enough he could count on for the job.

Just my two, or more cents.

Originally posted by Mr Master
It seems to me, sub-consciously Owen had enough, and it was time to go away,
and Sentry was the only one powerful enough he could count on for the job.

Just my two, or more cents.
Believe it or not, this has happened before (ie MM being utterly destroyed) but when he wanted to, he recreated a body for himself and came back to life. This was when he was a relative noob too and he thought he needed his "wand" for his powers. Death/destruction means nothing to beings on the level of MM and Beyonder.

Originally posted by zopzop

Believe it or not, this has happened before (ie MM being utterly
destroyed) but when he wanted to, he recreated a body for himself
and came back to life. This was when he was a relative noob too and
he thought he needed his "wand" for his powers.
... That's Owen's "plot" to lose, his mental issues (self-doubt/insecure etc)

Yet, he's too powerful so he needs a "plot" like every other uber cat out there.

Jaspers (Fury) Edifice (stupidity) Thanos/acquisitions (sense of unworthiness)
Hunger (dimensional travel) Jamie (simple mind) Abraxas (UN) etc.

I get it, so I understand why this is necessary.
It's the only way to stop these and others, and the good guy always wins,
in the true end.

=======================================

And while we're here discussing Owen Reece, I might as well give
the onlookers an understanding of how his history concerning power transitioned.

=======================================


Vs Klaw and Aaron ... Owen could not control organic Molecules or warp space-time.

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/10373489_MM3.jpg

-----------------------------------


Vs Beyonder ... Owen (as MM) could control organic Molecules & warp space-time.


----------------------------------

Vs Sentry ... Owen could control organic Molecules but could not warp space-time.

----------------------------------


Conclusion:

While Owen was more powerful vs Sentry, than Klaw or Aaron,
Owen was no where near as powerful when he took on Sentry than
when he battled Beyonder.

1. Owen (control over organic & in-organic molecules ... able to warp space-time)

2. Owen (control over organic & in-organic molecules)

3. Owen (control over in-organic molecules only)

-----------------------------------


Sentry, after getting effortlessly owned defeated a distracted, mentally unstable #2 Owen.

Which is still major upgrade points for Sentry.


========================================


^^^ ++++++++

Proof confirming the above!

++++++++++++


On Panel:

How Owen got his "power up"



------------------------------------


On Panel:

This is why Owen Reece's unlimited side is far more powerful than a Cube being:





------------------------------------


On Panel:

At the end of the Beyonder fight, Owen Reece takes over his unlimited side
and de-powers himself again by burying his unlimited side within his sub-conscious.




This is why when he confronts Sentry,
he's not at the same power-level as when he battled Beyonder.

-------------------------


Owen Reece, fully unleashed, destroys Sentry imo.

Now I must say, I hope Owen was somehow de-powered further and I didn't catch it
cause if not then Sentry beat a guy who claimed ripping Galaxies apart was easy stuff,
and the LT called Owen "one of the most powerful beings in all creation."

So,
either Owen subconsciously aided his own demise,
or "reign" Sentry is on a whole other level,
from the Sentry that has always been before "reign" and after.

++++++++++

Ok, so we probably wanna see how Owen lost to Klaw and Aaron.

Yes, we know Owen was de-powered, but still we're interested.

++++++++++


De-powered (can't control organic molecules or warp space-time) Owen Reece

loses to Klaw due to jobbing:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10373543_MM2.jpg

... hey there, I took away your blaster but still,
be my guest and please hit me while I stand here in glory.

------------------------------------------------


De-powered (can't control organic molecules or warp space-time) Owen Reece

loses to Aaron due to ridiculous jobbing: (on a cartoon scale)

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10373595_MM5.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10373598_MM6.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10373602_MM7.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10373605_MM9.jpg


If yall actually read the scans you'll notice ...

Owen was clowning around the entire fight, and jobbing into a loss,
even telling Aaron his weakness concerning organic molecules,
even waiting for Aaron to attack to show off by re-directing what
Aaron threw at em.

For jobbing and waiting like an idiot for Aaron to attack he lost.

------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Mr Master
This is why Owen Reece's unlimited side is far more powerful than a Cube being:





Did you catch what Kubik said concerning the Beyonder? That if MM "rent the life force of a being such as the Beyonder", it would "wreck unthinkable havoc across MULTIVERSAL cosmography".

^^ Oh absolutely, I pointed it out to someone in this thread I think.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I am of the opinion, and I respectfully disagree with your perspective likewise.
I don't see any doubts imo, I see Owen being informed, about how he feels inside.

The other scan of "another example" doesn't add anything imo.
Owen's Dormy creation told him: "take the world, it's yours to have"
and Owen replied: "I don't want the world, I want here" ...
means nothing to me.

Anyway ...
Owen wanted to lose sub-consciously, since his friends were aspects of such.
So, it's no surprise "consciously" he would not enjoy that when he actually lost.

Actually, I prefer to say,
Owen eased the win for Sentry, rather than outright handing it to him.

Smells like PIS.

... meh, Sentry was obliterated on 3 separate occasions by Owen,
and at the end, Sentry even got a clean shot at Owen,
(same looking energy he used to defeat Owen)
and Owen immediately recovered/retaliated & exploded Sentry a Third time:

Then, the same looking orange energy has a lasting affect 3 pages later. lol
It seems to me, sub-consciously Owen had enough, and it was time to go away,
and Sentry was the only one powerful enough he could count on for the job.

Just my two, or more cents. banking on statements made by owen's "friends" is faulty, though, because he either disagreed with them, or flat-out ignored them, almost every time they appeared on panel together. heck, he even disagreed with them in the very same panels you're referencing. clearly his 'normal' persona is the most reliable one he's got. :-/

aside from that, absolutely nothing from the owen/sentry battle itself alluded to the notion that owen was holding back by any stretch of the word. to the contrary, owen was clearly pissed off/berserker/bloodlusted during that confrontation-- and characters don't tend to hold back when they enter that mindset.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16279168/Dark_Avengers_12_013.jpg.html
"you're in MY world, sentry!"*he says with a pissed off look after being attacked*

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16279170/Dark_Avengers_12_015.jpg.html
"you LIARS!"*he says after he was attacked by the humans, and before he atomizes said attackers*

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16279171/Dark_Avengers_12_016.jpg.html
"how are you doing this to me?!?! i control the molecules! i do!"*he frantically says as sentry is overpowering him*

so yeah, there's no reason to assume that owen threw the fight, or that he could have destroyed sentry any time he chose, or that he allowed sentry to atomize him. no reason at all. there's more proof against that notion than there is for it. again: it's not a low showing for owen either way.

Originally posted by Galan007
so yeah, there's no reason to assume that owen threw the fight, or that he could have destroyed sentry any time he chose, or that he allowed sentry to atomize him. no reason at all. there's more proof against that notion than there is for it. again: it's not a low showing for owen either way.
You realize a lot, if not most, of the Secret War I/II feats done by MM and Beyonder weren't retconned right? This is the guy that repaired MULTIVERSAL wide destruction with a raised finger :
http://s8.postimg.org/m21n45grl/1647236_263209_molemman.jpg

Trust me, he wasn't in his right mind during the Sentry fight and it's not something the writer pulled from his @$$. Throughout his entire history he's had self imposed mental blocks on his powers. We saw what happened when Doom removed some of them during Secret Wars I/II and later when he himself started exploring his powers and removing his mental blocks (that he imposed on himself yet again after separating from the Cube he and Beyonder formed and that he imposed on himself AGAIN after that fight ended).

Originally posted by zopzop
Trust me, he wasn't in his right mind during the Sentry fight and it's not something the writer pulled from his @$$. i never questioned whether or not owen was portrayed as less powerful during siege then he was during secret wars. after all, it was mentioned a few times during siege that owen could only affect molecules "near him", or somesuch. conversely, sw-era owen had no restrictions in his scope of power at all. clearly, though, he was not intended to be a multiversal++ powerhouse in siege. that much was obvious.

that said, for the purposes of his battle with sentry, i do not believe owen was holding back. i believe sentry legitimately overpowered him. if it is your opinion that the writer was an idiot and didn't research owen or w/e, then you are entitled to that opinion... doesn't make the battle any less canon, though.

Originally posted by Galan007

banking on statements made by owen's "friends" is faulty,
though, because he either disagreed with them, or flat-out ignored
them, almost every time they appeared on panel together. heck, he
even disagreed with them in the very same panels you're
referencing. clearly his 'normal' persona is the most reliable one
he's got.
aside from that, absolutely nothing from the owen/sentry battle
itself alluded to the notion that owen was holding back by any
stretch of the word. to the contrary, owen was clearly pissed
off/berserker/bloodlusted during that confrontation-- and characters
don't tend to hold back when they enter that mindset.
"you're in MY world, sentry!"*he says with a pissed off look after
being attacked*
"how are you doing this to me?!?! i control the molecules! i do!"*he
frantically says as sentry is overpowering him*
so yeah, there's no reason to assume that owen threw the fight, or
that he could have destroyed sentry any time he chose, or that he
allowed sentry to atomize him. no reason at all. there's more proof
against that notion than there is for it. again: it's not a low showing
for owen either way.
That's great, and I respect your opinion.
But yeah, there's reason to know Owen threw the fight imo,
and he could have destroyed Sentry like he did 3 times prior, effortlessly.

Anyway, Owen's not happy cause it's 'sub-consciously' he wants to lose.
His 'sub-conscious' was in the form of his friends.
And, there's no reason of any kind to assume he was lying to himself.
Originally posted by Galan007

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16279170/Dark_Avengers_12_015.jpg.html
"you LIARS!"*he says after he was attacked by the humans, and
before he atomizes said attackers*
This has nothing to do with his manifested 'sub-conscious.'

Owen is referring to Victoria Hand who told him that was a "nuke."
But in fact, it was not, hence ... "you liars" ...

Originally posted by Mr Master
and he could have destroyed Sentry like he did 3 times prior, effortlessly. owen destroyed sentry those times before he tried to apply his matter manipulation offensively. once he did so, we saw sentry very decisively overpower owen.

i viewed the scene as such: sentry was intended to have more overall power, but owen was intended to have far more control over his power(hence sentry still requiring his help to restore the people.)

Originally posted by Mr Master
This has nothing to do with his manifested 'sub-conscious.'

Owen is referring to Victoria Hand who told him that was a "nuke."
But in fact, it was not, hence ... "you liars" ... never said it did. just used it as proof that owen was pissed off during that battle.

victoria told owen that she/they weren't there to fight... then sentry attacked him... then the military tried to nuke him. ergo his exclamation: "you LIARS!"

Originally posted by Galan007

owen destroyed sentry those times before he tried to
apply his matter manipulation offensively. once he did so, we saw
sentry very decisively overpower owen.
Actually, I saw Sentry hit Owen before that,
Owen felt it, but took it,
and then owned Sentry a Third time:




That's the same looking orange energy Sentry used to hold Owen.

Just sayin.
Originally posted by Galan007

i viewed the scene as such: sentry was intended to have more
overall power, but owen was intended to have far more control
over his power(hence sentry still requiring his help to restore the
people.)
That's perhaps the biggest comedy of the entire story.
While Sentry is holding Owen's molecules, Owen is able to re-create the 44
obliterated humans, the heroes he killed, the space fleet he disintegrated, and he
also restored the country side, all with a thought, within a panel.

And the screamer that tells us Owen had enough of being there,
Owen doesn't return.
Sentry re-formed 3 times and was less adept at manipulating matter,
surely Owen could've returned also, but he did not. (plot/pis = end of story)
Originally posted by Galan007

never said it did.
victoria told owen that she/they weren't there to fight... then sentry
attacked him... then the military tried to nuke him. ergo his
exclamation: "you LIARS!"


Anyway, I can't say your points aren't viable, cause they are,
but I have my point of view from the material, and it differs from yours,
but, so long as we end the discussion with a respectful disagreement,
I'll keep my coconut smile. hug

Originally posted by Mr Master


Anyway, I can't say your points aren't viable, cause they are,
but I have my point of view from the material, and it differs from yours,
but, so long as we end the discussion with a respectful disagreement,
I'll keep my coconut smile. hug fair enough.

Originally posted by Galan007
if it is your opinion that the writer was an idiot and didn't research owen or w/e, then you are entitled to that opinion... doesn't make the battle any less canon, though.
No you misunderstood me Galan. I actually said the writer had precedent for writing Owen down like that (even before Secret Wars, Owen had odd self imposed mental blocks and emotional issues that limited his abilities). His mental state affects his power level and he was "mental" for sure during that story arc.

So the loss to Sentry makes sense. If it was "Owen Unleashed", Voidtry would be wiped from existence.