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Geonosian Arena

Will Mace Windu defeat the most powerful Jedi?

1) Sabers only

Mace has the amp.

Please specify what amp Windu is getting. Do you mean his Sidious amp?

Mace takes sabers against the HoT. HoT takes force though. All Out I'm not sure. Probably Mace.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Mace takes sabers against the HoT. HoT takes force though. All Out I'm not sure. Probably Mace.

Huh? HoT has no force feats.

What normal Mace?

Yes. The amp from his increased inner darkness and the amp from the Chancellor.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Huh? HoT has no force feats.

HoT can kill people with single force pushes and dominate extremely powerful minds. They aren't featless.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Mace takes sabers against the HoT. HoT takes force though. All Out I'm not sure. Probably Mace.
Their is no guarantee that Mace will take sabers as well.

HoT can subdue Mace in all out fight; he have sufficient credentials to match the very elite of Star Wars.

I do agree that Mace is a tough cookie to crack but not impossible to overcome.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Huh? HoT has no force feats.
He have feats! He can perform impressive actions with thought (no gesture); their is an example of this in SWTOR Expansion. With gestures, he might do wonders.

The force wouldn't matter for either contestant as this is Sabers only?

Then Mace wins. :P

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Then Mace wins. :P
Still, no guarantee.

HoT have extraordinary lightsaber dueling feats as well.

Blueprint:

HoT > Praven > Usma (one of the most famous duelists of the Jedi Order)

Do the math.

Originally posted by Vensai
Please specify what amp Windu is getting. Do you mean his Sidious amp?

It's vaapad. Mace his his inner darkness plus the darkness of his enemy to make him stronger. Sidious is irrelevant in this case.

Regardless Mace takes this easily.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


HoT > Praven > Usma (one of the most famous duelists of the Jedi Order)

Do the math.

...You do realize that not even your ability to use vague quotes can work here as Mace literally has dozens of more impressive vague quotes than some random TOR character.

If we want to "do the math here" all I have to do is link the endless sources claiming Mace as one of the best swordsman in the mythos.

Erm, the Hero of Tythons martial prowess is said to be legendary? http://fi.somethingawful.com/safs/smilies/4/1/shrug.001.gif

Originally posted by Nephthys
HoT can kill people with single force pushes and dominate extremely powerful minds. They aren't featless.


Kill force users or non-force users with a single force push?

Windu has reduced several battle droids to pieces of scrap with a single force push. I'm pretty sure that's powerful enough to kill regular people with.

I was replying to the notion of the HoT being featless, not actually arguing.

Plus that showing was highly exaggerated.

So is anything contrary to the Force as depicted in the six G-canon films.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I was replying to the notion of the HoT being featless, not actually arguing.

Plus that showing was highly exaggerated.


Which showing? I wasn't referring to the mini cartoons, I was talking about the battle on Ryloth, which happened in the newer cartoons.

I haven't seen that. Link?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
So is anything contrary to the Force as depicted in the six G-canon films.

I'm sorry, what?

I'm just parroting what you said. Are you actually gonna start some shit with me over your own words.

Also no it ****ing isn't.

Who are you talking to, son?

The person I quoted, dumbass?

Keep the **** up.

Nice edit, b1tch. You are wise to correct your errors.

And what I said isn't mutually exclusive to what I said next. The point being that if we are to dismiss shit entirely for being "exaggerated," then it all goes.

No one cares about your TOR boner.

Except, it doesn't since not everything is exaggerated.

If it's incongruous with what's in the films, it sure is.

Nope.

Yep.

It isn't incongruous, so nope.

It is incongruous, so yes.

No.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It is incongruous, so yes.

No

Originally posted by Nephthys
I haven't seen that. Link?


Can't find the scene or the full episode on youtube, but it was in the episode "Liberty on Ryloth."

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It is incongruous, so yes.

No.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Can't find the scene or the full episode on youtube, but it was in the episode "Liberty on Ryloth."

Ok, I'll check it out.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It is incongruous, so yes.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Can't find the scene or the full episode on youtube, but it was in the episode "Liberty on Ryloth."

So I watched it and I think what happened (its not clear and my quality wasn't great) is that he pushed over a bunch of droids and a few smash into each other. Its hard to tell if they were really smashed since he then dropped something on them as well. The only one I can see that he legitimately smashes is one of those crappy 'Roger roger' droids and I'm not convinced they're more durable than a human in armor given how shite they are.

Still, a pretty good feat.

Originally posted by Based
Regardless Mace takes this easily.
No.

Originally posted by Based
...You do realize that not even your ability to use vague quotes can work here as Mace literally has dozens of more impressive vague quotes than some random TOR character.
Vague quotes? I am relying upon canon information to support my point. Roll with it.

Originally posted by Based
If we want to "do the math here" all I have to do is link the endless sources claiming Mace as one of the best swordsman in the mythos.
So? HoT is in the same position.

Originally posted by Nephthys
HoT can kill people with single force pushes and dominate extremely powerful minds. They aren't featless.

Really? That vague description certainly convinced me.
I don't think killing someone with a force push is that impressive. And dominating a powerful mind sounds like a DS feat.

I've never seen anyone but the extremely powerful kill people with mere Force Pushes.

Indeed, but the Jedi Knights alignment is canon as far as I know, and it isn't as if she gains the ability by choosing the darkside option.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Except, it doesn't since not everything is exaggerated.

Not everything was exaggerated in TFU or the Clone Wars Cartoon.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I've never seen anyone but the extremely powerful kill people with mere Force Pushes.

Indeed, but the Jedi Knights alignment is canon as far as I know, and it isn't as if she gains the ability by choosing the darkside option.

It's non-canon until stated otherwise. A feat that relies on the gameplay choice cannot be included until Lucas...errr Disney makes an official statement on the canonicity.

Although its safe to assume DS for Sith storylines
LS for all Jedi ones.

I'm pretty sure that episode was. At the end Windu hulk-jumps what must about a mile, lol.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm pretty sure that episode was. At the end Windu hulk-jumps what must about a mile, lol.

True, but if we can't take those exaggerated feats, you cannot then use a double standard for other EU beasts like Darth Nihilus and Emperor Vitiate.

Eh, those characters are noted to be god-like in some ways. As Zam said in the other thread, Nihilus destroying Katarr and lifting the Ravager from Malachor can hardly be exaggeration given that they're discussed in the game and mentioned outside in encyclopedia's etc. The CW cartoon on the other hand has been mentioned as being exaggerated. Theres been no mention of the same in regards to Nihilus and Vitiate.

Where has it been mentioned that it is exaggerated?

The planet's still there afterwards?

The developers/creators said so I believe.

Got a quote/link? I've seen people say this so often but I've never actually seen anyone prove it.

Filoni declared it hyperbolic in his commentary of Dooku's Captured. And it obviously is, since they don't do that shit in the movies.

But as myself and Mizukage_Yoda have explained, so too are plenty of EU feats outside the films.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But as myself and Mizukage_Yoda have explained, so too are plenty of EU feats outside the films.

I just don't agree with this. Yes, the EU includes feats on a far higher scale than characters in the films display. But that doesn't neccesarily mean the feats are exaggerated it could mean the charcater is more powerful than any in the films.

Originally posted by ares834
I just don't agree with this. Yes, the EU includes feats on a far higher scale than characters in the films display. But that doesn't neccesarily mean the feats are exaggerated it could mean the charcater is more powerful than any in the films.

And you're not alone there.

As for me? I believe that if the highest canonical medium shows "the most powerful practitioners of the light and dark sides" in "the golden age of the Jedi" displaying powers vastly inferior to tertiary characters from other eras who manipulate Star Destroyers, black holes, and destroy planets by speaking... the latter group's abilities are exaggerated.

It's positively silly to think that stylistic discrepancy plays no role.

Originally posted by ares834
Got a quote/link? I've seen people say this so often but I've never actually seen anyone prove it.

Nope. Tempest probably knows though so I'm betting he posted it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And you're not alone there.

As for me? I believe that if the highest canonical medium shows "the most powerful practitioners of the light and dark sides" in "the golden age of the Jedi" displaying powers vastly inferior to tertiary characters from other eras who manipulate Star Destroyers, black holes, and destroy planets by speaking... the latter group's abilities are exaggerated.

It's positively silly to think that stylistic discrepancy plays no role.

This is how I feel as well. Aside from Luke Yoda is the most powerful Jedi, and Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord.

In TFU we see Starkiller doing things that make Yoda and Sidious' duel in the Grand Convocation Chamber look like nothing. And yet Sidious is clearly above Starkiller by a good margin.


Thus powerscaling, and logic dictates that both Sidious and Yoda, and all the PT top tier for that matter should be capable of at least Starkiller-level feats.

In which case feats from the animated Clone Wars seam reasonable.

Well wasn't TFU also said to be exaggerated?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
This is how I feel as well. Aside from Luke Yoda is the most powerful Jedi, and Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord.

In TFU we see Starkiller doing things that make Yoda and Sidious' duel in the Grand Convocation Chamber look like nothing. And yet Sidious is clearly above Starkiller by a good margin.


Thus powerscaling, and logic dictates that both Sidious and Yoda, and all the PT top tier for that matter should be capable of at least Starkiller-level feats.

In which case feats from the animated Clone Wars seam reasonable.

The problem is that I think the idea that the Jedi/Sith in the movies have to be representative of the most powerful Force Users of all time, especially to the extent that there couldn't exist the rare exception to the rule that vastly surpasses them, is highly questionable and I don't feel particularly strong evidence has been provided that would suggest such a thing.

If we want to have a truly accurate view of Star Wars canon the answer is to scale down the kind of stuff we see in TFU and the Clone Wars cartoon to keep it compatible with the movies, but that doesn't mean that we should apply the same reasoning to the entirety of the EU and so far a strong argument hasn't really been presented to do so.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well wasn't TFU also said to be exaggerated?

I'm pretty sure that was the entire point of TFU.

Well Dooku and Sidious are the only ones in the PT who have any right to be using Force Attacks, since the rest are Jedi and Maul, who don't use the Force offensively. And you can accept those two as simply not doing any crazy Force attacks in the duel. So the PT doesn't necessarily represent a lower level of power, so much as it simply doesn't showcase any of its characters performing high-end feats. The rest of the EU fills in what the PT characters can do either way. The Clone Wars is the most over-saturated part of the mythos afterall. And the Clone Wars cartoon is the only one thats noticably incongruous with the movies in terms of power IMO.

The OT is off the hook for being old. And not having any chances to show off anyway.

It's not just a matter of the movies not showcasing their abilities though, it's that the movies give a very good indication of their limitations; we see them display clear signs of difficulty with relatively low level telekinesis (compared to the EU) throughout the movies and the few times we see them engage in TK battles and the importance of those engagements gives them all the opportunity and motivation to showcase their powers in that capacity that they would ever need and the simple fact that they choose to engage on such a low level strongly suggests that what we see approaches the extent of their powers. It simply doesn't make sense that they could vastly outperform what they display in the movies when they clearly have to exert themselves to pull off what they do demonstrate, and that they would engage in grand TK battles using the environment around them to overwhelm one another in the battles of their lives, and not do so to the fullest of their abilities.

Now you're getting greedy.

Well **** you too bro!

Lol.

You'll never convince anyone to see it that way. Yoda and Sidious have too much support to get anyone to buy that they struggle with basic stuff like they do in the movie and that they're just tonnes weaker than Bane, Nihilus, Vitiate etc. The most we can hope for is to convince everyone not to gimp the entire EU down to PT level. A lot of people seem to want to do that even if it is completely unfeasable and unable to be used in any debate. Anything more than that is unrealistic and greedy.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Erm, the Hero of Tythons martial prowess is said to be legendary? http://fi.somethingawful.com/safs/smilies/4/1/shrug.001.gif

Same as Revan or Satele yet their vague statements gets ignored.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
This is how I feel as well. Aside from Luke Yoda is the most powerful Jedi, and Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord.

In TFU we see Starkiller doing things that make Yoda and Sidious' duel in the Grand Convocation Chamber look like nothing. And yet Sidious is clearly above Starkiller by a good margin.


Thus powerscaling, and logic dictates that both Sidious and Yoda, and all the PT top tier for that matter should be capable of at least Starkiller-level feats.

In which case feats from the animated Clone Wars seem reasonable.
True, but that doesn't explain why Windu didn't just solo the army on Geonosis.

Originally posted by Vensai
True, but that doesn't explain why Windu didn't just solo the army on Geonosis.

I'd say that's because the movies take a minimalistic/"manageable" approach to Jedi power than does the EU. Though Nai often mentioned that George allegedly said that the microseries' depiction of the Force is more accurate.

Either way, we know from The Phantom Menace Movie Scrapbook that the Rule of Two Sith actually gained power with each generation. If that's not enough confirmation, we know that Karpyshyn posits that Bane and Revan aren't necessarily stronger than Vader, despite the fact that Vader's feats only rival those of Bane's in "exaggerated" material like TFU.

It's simply stylistic difference.

Do you have a quote from the scrapbook?

This guy (The_Tempest) doesn't responds to me but I would like to clarify some errors in his posts.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'd say that's because the movies take a minimalistic/"manageable" approach to Jedi power than does the EU.
GL had ample time to explore Jedi powers in The Clone Wars series but he didn't follow the route of the The Clone Wars (mini) series.

Therefore, The Clone Wars (mini) series depicts characters in exaggerated form. If TOR era characters are featured in such a medium, they might be even more impressive. Most viable solution is to avoid this medium for comparative purposes.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Though Nai often mentioned that George allegedly said that the microseries' depiction of the Force is more accurate.
Provide proof.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Either way, we know from The Phantom Menace Movie Scrapbook that the Rule of Two Sith actually gained power with each generation.
Latest revelations suggest that this is not necessarily the case. Within this lineage, Sith cheated to gain power as well. Sidious himself did so against Plagueis.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
If that's not enough confirmation, we know that Karpyshyn posits that Bane and Revan aren't necessarily stronger than Vader, despite the fact that Vader's feats only rival those of Bane's in "exaggerated" material like TFU.
He will never give a concrete answer in this regard; he tries to save his skin. He stated that this is not his call.

However, he does ranks characters in actual canonical information and Revan is superior to both Bane and Vader as per his ranking.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's simply stylistic difference.
No.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Do you have a quote from the scrapbook?

Yup, I'll upload the scan sometime today.

Thanks.

Does it mean that, technically, Bane would be the weakest Banite Sith?

Zannah's weaker then him so doubtful.

They were in the same era/generation though. Tempest said that the book notes that power grew with each ''generation''.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Thanks.

Does it mean that, technically, Bane would be the weakest Banite Sith?

Quite possibly, which isn't that much of a stretch given that the entire point of the Rule of Two was that the apprentice would eventually surpass the teacher, not merely replace them.

That Zannah and Sidious weren't likely the equal of their Masters at the time of their ascension doesn't preclude the fact that they surpassed them legitimately later on. Likewise with Plagueis and Tenebrous.

Agreed. Good points.

Also, Zannah is about an equal with Bane in my opinion.

Really, he came off as a clear superior to me. Better with a lightsaber, superior TK feats, extremely powerful lightning. All she has on him is sorcery which he can resist (barring those tentacles). Bane came off as a combat monster who Zannah was barely holding her own against until she pulled out the tentacles. Even when he was without a lightsaber she was unable to kill him.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
They were in the same era/generation though. Tempest said that the book notes that power grew with each ''generation''.

In this case I'd think the term is referring to steps in the line of Sith succession.

True on the Bane-Zannah thing. I'd momentarily forgotten about their fight in the Stone Prison.

Still, she defended herself very well in their final duel.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Also, Zannah is about an equal with Bane in my opinion.

Well she certainly wasn't outclassed. I'd say she fought at parity, more or less. Perhaps not due to conventional skills, but definitely in others.

Cognus also saw them as near equals, so yeah.

Indeed?

I can't find for Cognus, but here's Bane saying it:

"I am ready to begin my training," Cognus replied, still down on one knee before him.

"Not yet," he said, walking past her and heading to the shuttles on the far side of the camp. "There is still one important matter to take care of."

Cognus jumped up to follow him. "Your old apprentice?" she guessed.

Or was it a guess?

Bane stopped and turned back toward her. "Have you seen what will happen between me and my apprentice?"

"Ever since I came to this world to meet the princess I have dreamed of you both," Cognus admitted. "But the meaning is unclear."

"Tell me what you've seen," Bane ordered.

"The details are always changing. Different locations, different worlds, different times of the day or night. At times I see her dead at your feet, other times she is the victor. I have tried to make sense of it, but there are too many contradictions."

"The future of the Sith is precariously balanced between Zannah and myself," Bane explained. "Whoever survives our confrontation will control the destiny of the Sith, but our strength is too evenly matched for you to foresee the outcome."

Also:


For a moment they seemed to be evenly matched, neither gaining nor giving ground. And then suddenly it was over.

Seems conclusive. Here you are:

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/019_zps520b84ec.jpg

When it says "their powers increased", is that specifically talking about their combat arsenal or is it understanding of the force, dark side, etc?

It doesn't detail the functionality of these powers. But since "knowledge" is mentioned separately from "powers" in that very sentence, the powers in question clearly don't refer to mere dark side trivia.

Appreciated.

Originally posted by Vensai
True, but that doesn't explain why Windu didn't just solo the army on Geonosis.

The same reason Dooku didn't jump down and massacre fodder Jedi. And also technical limitations. They already killed off half the TPM Council because it would have been too expensive to animate them. How expensive would it have been to have Mace Windu punching through battledroids in a Man of Steel esq fashion.

Scaling the EU down or the films up, either way it's evident that extreme variance owes to stylistic discrepancies rather than deliberate, legitimate creative ones.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The same reason Dooku didn't jump down and massacre fodder Jedi. And also technical limitations. They already killed off half the TPM Council because it would have been too expensive to animate them. How expensive would it have been to have Mace Windu punching through battledroids in a Man of Steel esq fashion.
Do you work as financial advisor for George Lucas? Do you know the exact cost of depicting Force-uses smashing through droids?

Episode 3 already had high budget; more could be put in to it, but GL thinks differently from many authors about capabilities of Force-users.

In GL backed The Clone Wars series, Dooku was once captured by pirates: http://starwars.com/explore/the-clone-wars/ep111/

Fact is that The Clone Wars (mini) series is an unreliable/inconsistent medium for Jedi powers, canon or not.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


GL had ample time to explore Jedi powers in The Clone Wars series but he didn't follow the route of the The Clone Wars (mini) series.

Therefore, The Clone Wars (mini) series depicts characters in exaggerated form. If TOR era characters are featured in such a medium, they might be even more impressive. Most viable solution is to avoid this medium for comparative purposes.




I would suggest if TOR level characters were featured in the movies or in a T-Canon setting then they would also be toned down as their feats are likely also exaggerated for Lucas's taste.

I disagree. The trailers, which are basically our insight into the capability of the TOR-era, are on a level with the Clone Wars cartoons. I don't see them as being exaggerated beyond the CWC in them. Now a few characters do perform beyond the level shown in the cartoon, but imo I think that's solely due to the characters actually being a level beyond the majority of the characters on the show. I.E. You're not going to see Obi-Wan smash through a blast door or block Sidious-level lightning because Obi-Wan actually isn't that powerful. Still you do have impressive displays of power, like Maul pulling that ship, Sidious owning the brothers and Dooku lifting those obalisks.

The movies just suffer from the fact that its harder to make things visually impressive on live action.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I would suggest if TOR level characters were featured in the movies or in a T-Canon setting then they would also be toned down as their feats are likely also exaggerated for Lucas's taste.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I would suggest if TOR level characters were featured in the movies or in a T-Canon setting then they would also be toned down as their feats are likely also exaggerated for Lucas's taste.
I disagree!

The 3 official cinematic trailers (Deceived; Hope; Return) are LucasArts approved realistic or movie like depictions of TOR era characters in action.

The rest have been reasonably explained by member (Nephthys).

Originally posted by Nephthys
I disagree. The trailers, which are basically our insight into the capability of the TOR-era, are on a level with the Clone Wars cartoons. I don't see them as being exaggerated beyond the CWC in them. Now a few characters do perform beyond the level shown in the cartoon, but imo I think that's solely due to the characters actually being a level beyond the majority of the characters on the show. I.E. You're not going to see Obi-Wan smash through a blast door or block Sidious-level lightning because Obi-Wan actually isn't that powerful. Still you do have impressive displays of power, like Maul pulling that ship, Sidious owning the brothers and Dooku lifting those obalisks.


Originally posted by Nephthys
The movies just suffer from the fact that its harder to make things visually impressive on live action.
CGI addresses such limitations.

The movies suck as do their CGI though.