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Sidious is one of the more explore characters in Star Wars. Also, only a few star wars characters are viewed by many as being able to stand up to Sidious. So the question I have is:

Has Sidious ever defeated a force user who was near, equal, or greater than him in ability and power?

I cannot think of one.

Luke.

Yoda arguably

He didn't defeat Yoda

Hence arguably.

Originally posted by DarthSexy123
He didn't defeat Yoda

I believe multiple sources say otherwise.

..

Originally posted by The Merchant
Luke.

Was Luke near or equal to his level of power at his time of defeat?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Hence arguably.

Wasn't that more of a stalemate?

Originally posted by Kotor3
Wasn't that more of a stalemate?
Eh. Yoda chose to flee in the end while Sidious was the last one standing. It's technically Sidious' victory.

And technically Yoda made Sidious have the "O" face, so lets not get into technicalities.

Originally posted by Vensai
Eh. Yoda chose flee in the end while Sidious was the last one standing. It's technically Sidious' victory.

Yoda fled not due to Sidious overwhelming power, but due to the fact that he ran out of time because the stormtroopers had arrived to assist Sidious.

It may technically be a win for Sidious in that help came in time.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Yoda fled not due to Sidious overwhelming power, but due to the fact that he ran out of time because the stormtroopers had arrived to assist Sidious.

It may technically be a win for Sidious in that help came in time.

"Fact"?

I didn't see a single white helmet in the Rotunda until after Yoda fled when last I watched ROTS. And no source I'm aware of attributes his sudden departure to the arrival, impending or otherwise, of mooks.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
"Fact"?

I didn't see a single white helmet in the Rotunda until after Yoda fled when last I watched ROTS. And no source I'm aware of attributes his sudden departure the arrival, impending or otherwise, of mooks.


That is the impression I got from the movie as to the reason as to why he fled. If you are saying that is not correct then please enlighten me.

I'm not saying it's incorrect.

Yoda clearly didn't have all day to get the job done, but Imperial security was tragically lax, since the duel went on for some minutes without intercession from troopers. And Mas Amedda didn't seem to be in a hurry to run for help when he left the holding office beneath the Rotunda.

Personally, I'd say it owes to a number of relevant factors: Yoda was confirmed to be unarmed, Sidious might not have been, he'd just fallen from a great height (consider the amount of time and effort it took for Yoda to get to Sidious during the earlier pod scene, Sidious would just likely return to his missile-whoring ways), suffered a severe blow to morale (ROTS Visual Dictionary), and had an epiphany that a protracted confrontation with Sidious wouldn't get the job done (ROTS novel). And then, yes, that stormtroopers wouldn't be twiddling their thumbs all day to lend the boss a hand.

Basically, a bunch of shit fell on Yoda all at once and he made the safe call.

Fair enough.

Yoda had little energy left after the fight to continue (thanks to his age and use of Ataru), otherwise he should have had the strength to pull himself up (Sidious was also hanging off). Granted, Yoda had a shot at winning if they had been on even ground like Mace was against Sidious.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm not saying it's incorrect.

Yoda clearly didn't have all day to get the job done, but Imperial security was tragically lax, since the duel went on for some minutes without intercession from troopers. And Mas Amedda didn't seem to be in a hurry to run for help when he left the holding office beneath the Rotunda.

Personally, I'd say it owes to a number of relevant factors: Yoda was confirmed to be unarmed, Sidious might not have been, he'd just fallen from a great height (consider the amount of time and effort it took for Yoda to get to Sidious during the earlier pod scene, Sidious would just likely return to his missile-whoring ways), suffered a severe blow to morale (ROTS Visual Dictionary), and had an epiphany that a protracted confrontation with Sidious wouldn't get the job done (ROTS novel). And then, yes, that stormtroopers wouldn't be twiddling their thumbs all day to lend the boss a hand.

Basically, a bunch of shit fell on Yoda all at once and he made the safe call.

And that translates into a Sidious win? I guess this IS semantics. While everything you said may be correct in that Yoda didn't have the time or the patience to get back all the way up, it doesn't appear Sidious wanted any part of Yoda either after his O face.

Originally posted by dddddarth
And that translates into a Sidious win? I guess this IS semantics. While everything you said may be correct in that Yoda didn't have the time or the patience to get back all the way up, it doesn't appear Sidious wanted any part of Yoda either after his O face.

Sidious accomplished his primary goal whereas Yoda, by his own admission, failed. Sure, Yoda didn't get his ass outright spanked (no one suggests that). Likewise, Sidious's O face means no more to me than Yoda's look of extreme pain that preceded it.

Lets not get into semantics here. The fight itself was a stalemate, regardless of greater implications. And while Yoda did have extreme pain, it's a little different when he turned that around onto Sidious.

Which is why I said that neither expression means more to me. One expressed agony, the other expressed fear.

So we're back to square one. Show me a source that says Sidous defeated Yoda. It becomes semantics when you take Yoda's zero sum logic into account.

Sources range from the website to the Chronology to the Atlas to the visual guides, dictionaries, encyclopedias, and the essential reader's companion.

If you want a compilation of full quotes, I can get them to you later.

Yes, I would like actual quotes.

It appears only two of those say he actually lost. Either way, I stick by what I say in the ROTS movie.

Overwhelmed doesn't imply defeat. Yoda "overwhelmed" Sidious with his force push. The first quote says he did not win, but doesn't say anything about losing. Second quote I grant you. Third quote I grant you. That's pretty much it and it still doesn't help because I saw a stalemate in the movie.

Originally posted by ssysys
Overwhelmed doesn't imply defeat.

Of course it does. It's inherent to the definition.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/overwhelm

Originally posted by ssysys
Yoda "overwhelmed" Sidious with his force push. The first quote says he did not win, but doesn't say anything about losing. Second quote I grant you. Third quote I grant you. That's pretty much it and it still doesn't help because I saw a stalemate in the movie.

You're free to disregard what you like, it's not my prerogative to compel you to accept interpretations that differ from your own. If you saw stalemate, you saw stalemate. But the bolded quotes do clearly indicate Yoda's defeat.

And you were the one who claimed no interest in semantics.

Originally posted by The_Tempest




You're free to disregard what you like, it's not my prerogative to compel you to accept interpretations that differ from your own. If you saw stalemate, you saw stalemate. But the bolded quotes do clearly indicate Yoda's defeat.

And you were the one who claimed no interest in semantics.

You're the one who brought semantics into the conversation along the lines of "if it doesn't indicate Yoda won, then he lost". The other point is what the movie showed was much different than some of these quotes. While Sidious overwhelmed Yoda with the dark side, Yoda did the exact same thing to Sidious. You don't need a quote to say either or in this case because it's indicated in the movie. I'm not disregarding anything.

Originally posted by ssysys
You're the one who brought semantics into the conversation along the lines of "if it doesn't indicate Yoda won, then he lost".

No, because the context of the sentence implies victory for Sidious: "Yoda couldn't beat him, Yoda ran."

Now you're free to wave those implications aside to raise a technical dispute: Well, technically it doesn't really say he lost. And I'd agree with you, but that is a semantic argument.

Originally posted by ssysys
The other point is what the movie showed was much different than some of these quotes.

What the movie showed you, or rather, your interpretation of the movie differs from what is reflected in these quotes.

Originally posted by ssysys
While Sidious overwhelmed Yoda with the dark side, Yoda did the exact same thing to Sidious. You don't need a quote to say either or in this case because it's indicated in the movie. I'm not disregarding anything.

You are absolutely disregarding it, which I have no issue with. Quote says X about Y, you disagree with the interpretation of Y (X), and you dismiss it. That's fine, I'm not condemning you for it. I personally have zero interest in that line of debate precisely because it got old way back in 2007 with Janus, Nai, and Illustrious and I have no desire to exhume a long-buried horse in order to flog it some more.

You asked for the quotes, I delivered. That's it. What you do with them is your prerogative.

I clicked on Tempests post with the quotes and have got to say that your opinion means jack shit Beefy. The quotes say he lost. He lost.

Are you still mad at me?

Good God, Neph, we've said far worse to each other over the years.

Yes we have.

So why the **** would I take you off ignore?

Because we're friends, bozo. Friends jab each other.

You should have known that I wasn't serious; I was bantering with you in the Battle Bar not 10 minutes before.

It's called Belligerent Sexual Tension and it's got a TVTropes page.

Awww, you guys are so cute :3

Some of the quotes seem to be a direct contradiction to what was displayed in the movies. I do not remember anything displayed from the movie that gave any indication that Yoda could not withstand, was outmatched, or overwhelmed by Sidious.

If the quotes are viewed as canon, did I guess this fight can be counted as a win. Since there are different levels of canon in the Star War Universe which level do these quotes fall in?

I think that different authors perceive the same fight in different manner.

To some;

1. This fight might be perceived as stalemate/Yoda decided to retreat
2. This fight might be perceived as victory of Sidious

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Now you're free to wave those implications aside to raise a technical dispute: Well, technically it doesn't really say he lost. And I'd agree with you, but that is a semantic argument.
"If he doesn't win, he lost" is a semantic argument as well. In fact, moreso than what I said because the results of a game/match/fight have 3 possible outcomes: win, lose, draw. Your argument "if it doesn't say he won, then he lost" implies 2 outcomes.



you, or rather, your interpretation of the movie differs from what is reflected in these quotes.
That's my point.




I accept the 2 quotes that say he lost. But in my opinion, the movie (highest form of canon) shows a complete stalemate. That's hardly similar to what you are describing.

Originally posted by doct2928
"If he doesn't win, he lost" is a semantic argument as well. In fact, moreso than
what I said

I know. I acknowledged that it was a semantic argument. But only one of us expressed a desire not to indulge in such arguments and it wasn't me.

Originally posted by doct2928
That's my point.

I know.

Originally posted by doct2928
I accept the 2 quotes that say he lost. But in my opinion, the movie (highest form of canon) shows a complete stalemate. That's hardly similar to what you are describing.

Like I said, what you do with the quotes is your prerogative. You asked, I delivered.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I think that different authors perceive the same fight in different manner.

To some;

1. This fight might be perceived as stalemate/Yoda decided to retreat
2. This fight might be perceived as victory of Sidious
good observation