Orion W/ALE Vs Rune King Thor W/Power Gem

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Golgo13
Which amped characters wins?

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/RKT_zps0e145707.jpg

vs

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/OR_zps2827689b.jpg

xJLxKing
Orion

Rage.Of.Olympus
I think with the Omniscience he gained, he'd be able to utilize the Power Gem to it's fullest potential by itself. Based on that, Thor wins the fight. But the ALE's has a big mental factor, the antithesis of free will. Would sufficient power enough to overcome it? The big Anti Life monster from Stalin's run was more like a rogue Galactus but the equation itself is usually different from that. Galan, I summon you! I've got my Thor and Wildstorm collection back, but not my New God collection sad.

leonidas
the ale entity was an aberration so i don't think looking at its power is a good way to determine its power. with the ale orion was able to take out ecruos (sp?) and it was a multiversal level entity. the power gem is different from the mind gem. not even sure with power and mind gems he could overcome orion's power with the ale. i'd say orion for sure if all he gets is the power gem as i don't think the power gem has ever been shown to grant infinite WILLpower....

Endless Mike
Orion

guy222
RKT

Golgo13
To me my Galan! stick out tongue undecided as of now.

Mr Master
Wow, if warrior madness Thor/PG, who was barely tapping the PG
sub-consciously, yet worried Eternity/Infinity who said with time he
would become a threat to a good portion of All they are ... I can
imagine this beast fully harnessing the PG ... ouch.

I don't eve know much about RKT to be honest, just here and there,
but for those who do know, you can basically now augment his
present abilities into infinity. (nowadays, subject to the confines of a universal "infinity"wink

Golgo13
Would that be enough to resist the ALE?

leonidas
when thor had the power gem he wasn't able to tap its powers to get rid of the valkyrie that was the embodiment of his insanity/madness, whatever you want to call it. not sure how, if he couldn't even use it to handle his own mental issues, he would be able to tap its powers to avoid falling to the ale's usurpation of his will.

operator616
ecruos wasn't exactly a multiversal entity, the only way it was destroying existence is by bonding with the tree that held reality in its place, and while bonded, it was killing itself, destroying the universe in the process. the ALE worked on it since it was its antithesis, which makes sense considering the ALE is part of the source, and ecrous is its opposite.

and frankly speaking, being the source's enemy/opposite doesn't tell us much considering the source jumps from being outright called "the one above all" in the spectre series (3rd volume) to being defeated by 3 skyfathers in death of the new gods (though i find its canonicity questionable).

Regarding thor - RKT wasn't omnisceint, at the end of the arc he wanted someone to guide him, clearly shows he was nowhere near that level. We also have thanos giving thor (with the power gem) a hard fight in that SS issue.

ill give orion the edge in this fight.

Mr Master
But this is RKT harnessing the PG fully.

... blood/thunder Thor was tapping the PG sub-consciously,
and he was getting more powerful by the second.

So, we can imagine a fully tapped PG in the hands of a more powerful Thor.

leonidas
Originally posted by operator616
ecruos wasn't exactly a multiversal entity, the only way it was destroying existence is by bonding with the tree that held reality in its place, and while bonded, it was killing itself, destroying the universe in the process. the ALE worked on it since it was its antithesis, which makes sense considering the ALE is part of the source, and ecrous is its opposite.

and frankly speaking, being the source's enemy/opposite doesn't tell us much considering the source jumps from being outright called "the one above all" in the spectre series (3rd volume) to being defeated by 3 skyfathers in death of the new gods (though i find its canonicity questionable).

Regarding thor - RKT wasn't omnisceint, at the end of the arc he wanted someone to guide him, clearly shows he was nowhere near that level. We also have thanos giving thor (with the power gem) a hard fight in that SS issue.

ill give orion the edge in this fight.

i could likewise say if it was the source's opposite it should NOT have worked. and it depends on what you consider a multiversal entity. clearly it had enormous power, which was my point in bringing it up. that battle also took place outside the bounds of the normal universe (iirc) which means the ale is multiversal in its scope, something the gems are not. i do agree orion wins though. the gem wouldn't grant omniscience, nor would it grant infinite will power. the ale would lie outside the gem's scope and possibly beyond the scope of any of the gems or even the IG.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by operator616
ecruos wasn't exactly a multiversal entity, the only way it was destroying existence is by bonding with the tree that held reality in its place, and while bonded, it was killing itself, destroying the universe in the process. the ALE worked on it since it was its antithesis, which makes sense considering the ALE is part of the source, and ecrous is its opposite.

and frankly speaking, being the source's enemy/opposite doesn't tell us much considering the source jumps from being outright called "the one above all" in the spectre series (3rd volume) to being defeated by 3 skyfathers in death of the new gods (though i find its canonicity questionable).

Regarding thor - RKT wasn't omnisceint, at the end of the arc he wanted someone to guide him, clearly shows he was nowhere near that level. We also have thanos giving thor (with the power gem) a hard fight in that SS issue.

ill give orion the edge in this fight.

I remember that. While you do have to have a level of power to have an effect on the World Tree, damaging it doesn't in itself make you a Multiversal power. Enchantress was endangering creation similarly by warping the World Tree which is pretty crazy but not in itself evidence of Multiversal power.

I do like that Simonson used Asgardian elements in his series, IIRC I remember seeing a Thor like figure in the flash back of the Old Gods war. It would have been interesting if Marvel had let Kirby write Ragnarok and then create the New Gods.

Rune King Thor did have the all-seeing sight, the Runes gave him Omniscience. That however doesn't give him Wisdom automatically, a big point of that arc was Thor evolving and gaining the Wisdom of Odin. Which he did by the end.

Golgo13
Originally posted by operator616
ecruos wasn't exactly a multiversal entity, the only way it was destroying existence is by bonding with the tree that held reality in its place, and while bonded, it was killing itself, destroying the universe in the process. the ALE worked on it since it was its antithesis, which makes sense considering the ALE is part of the source, and ecrous is its opposite.

and frankly speaking, being the source's enemy/opposite doesn't tell us much considering the source jumps from being outright called "the one above all" in the spectre series (3rd volume) to being defeated by 3 skyfathers in death of the new gods (though i find its canonicity questionable).

Regarding thor - RKT wasn't omnisceint, at the end of the arc he wanted someone to guide him, clearly shows he was nowhere near that level. We also have thanos giving thor (with the power gem) a hard fight in that SS issue.

ill give orion the edge in this fight.

Would you place the Ecruos on the level of the Anti-Life Entity?

operator616
Originally posted by leonidas
i could likewise say if it was the source's opposite it should NOT have worked. and it depends on what you consider a multiversal entity. clearly it had enormous power, which was my point in bringing it up. that battle also took place outside the bounds of the normal universe (iirc) which means the ale is multiversal in its scope, something the gems are not. i do agree orion wins though. the gem wouldn't grant omniscience, nor would it grant infinite will power. the ale would lie outside the gem's scope and possibly beyond the scope of any of the gems or even the IG.

Ecruos is the negation of all things (orion #16).....

http://i.imgur.com/C9I4EKM.jpg?1

.....while the source is well, the source of all things, so Ecruos is the opposite of the source.

the ALE is part of the source (a half), and on panel, it's stated that it is also the exact opposite of Ecruos (orion #17)

http://i.imgur.com/W0Vxgmf.jpg?1

perfectly fits together.

Furthermore, everything points out that it was a universal threat, here's a retelling from orion #18

http://i.imgur.com/XuFc3be.jpg

i could give you proof from the issue itself as well as other retellings if you want.

and what has the ALE done to prove that it's multiversal?

no feats as far as im concerned, we have a statement in sandman #4, that says anti life is the end of all universes, though the problem here, is that it was a game challenge (a demon challenged dream of the endless) in which the challengers should state the properties of the entities/items they choose, so im not sure if it can be taken as a fact:

http://i.imgur.com/wdJDtxe.png

----



orion was already in the abysmal plane where the tree was located, and even the recent crappy IG was able to effortlessly create a universe from nothingness in FF #611.


----

and how exactly bonding to the tree and destroying it is impressive? when we have a random person capable of doing practically the same thing (by killing someone of his own kin), lucifer #54:

http://i.imgur.com/f50P0W4.jpg

operator616
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I remember that. While you do have to have a level of power to have an effect on the World Tree, damaging it doesn't in itself make you a Multiversal power. Enchantress was endangering creation similarly by warping the World Tree which is pretty crazy but not in itself evidence of Multiversal power.

I do like that Simonson used Asgardian elements in his series, IIRC I remember seeing a Thor like figure in the flash back of the Old Gods war. It would have been interesting if Marvel had let Kirby write Ragnarok and then create the New Gods.

Rune King Thor did have the all-seeing sight, the Runes gave him Omniscience. That however doesn't give him Wisdom automatically, a big point of that arc was Thor evolving and gaining the Wisdom of Odin. Which he did by the end.


wisdom is part of omniscience, im not sure how can you differentiate between them. and at the end of issue 85, literally the last page proves that he isn't omniscient:

http://i.imgur.com/IdY1doP.jpg

sure he had the "sight beyond sight" and even gazed into the gungingap (norse void/nothingness) but he was never omniscient, nor was it even mentioned.

------

@golgo13:

the anti life equation and anti life entity are one and the same:

first of all, we learn that the source was separated by 3 skyfathers (death of the new gods #5) and was seeking to reunite with its other half (anti life entity) ever since

http://i.imgur.com/tStKSig.jpg

and the major crisis events prevented it from reuniting from its other half (same issue)

http://i.imgur.com/fcTXDQy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Fn9IBVD.jpg

this entity in scott is the embodiment of the anti life equation (DOTG #7)

http://i.imgur.com/l5GZwm2.jpg

the source finally merges with it - reunites - and becomes whole (same issue)

http://i.imgur.com/o5xPj8f.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/OLmLhM2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RRq9DRn.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HAUaIdu.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/y1wzX9O.jpg

orion used the equation to defeat the Ecruos (orion #17);

http://i.imgur.com/VqlfQvb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XBai4yV.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QDaLHU1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/tR5bVgT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/chAgvBR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YoI8nz0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UlCFGQ9.jpg

they actually cancelled each other out (see the retelling from orion #18, to confirm this which i already posted)

that should also answer your other thread

leonidas
Originally posted by operator616
Ecruos is the negation of all things (orion #16).....

http://i.imgur.com/C9I4EKM.jpg?1

.....while the source is well, the source of all things, so Ecruos is the opposite of the source.

the ALE is part of the source (a half), and on panel, it's stated that it is also the exact opposite of Ecruos (orion #17)

http://i.imgur.com/W0Vxgmf.jpg?1

perfectly fits together.

Furthermore, everything points out that it was a universal threat, here's a retelling from orion #18

http://i.imgur.com/XuFc3be.jpg

i could give you proof from the issue itself as well as other retellings if you want.

and what has the ALE done to prove that it's multiversal?

no feats as far as im concerned, we have a statement in sandman #4, that says anti life is the end of all universes, though the problem here, is that it was a game challenge (a demon challenged dream of the endless) in which the challengers should state the properties of the entities/items they choose, so im not sure if it can be taken as a fact:

http://i.imgur.com/wdJDtxe.png

----



orion was already in the abysmal plane where the tree was located, and even the recent crappy IG was able to effortlessly create a universe from nothingness in FF #611.


----

and how exactly bonding to the tree and destroying it is impressive? when we have a random person capable of doing practically the same thing (by killing someone of his own kin), lucifer #54:

http://i.imgur.com/f50P0W4.jpg

wut? the ecruos wasn't the "opposite" of the source. it actively worked against it. you seemed to want to take the fact that it was opposed to the source as a reason for the ale working on it. the ale was simply more powerful ans so annihilated it.

you may have a point in one sense--when i refer to a multiversal power, i mean a being whose power extends beyond the bounds of any single universe. ecruos had that type of power. if thanos had the IG in our universe could he beat ecruos? who knows. maybe. speculation to say either would win. it's also tangential and was speculation when i raised the issue. this isn't the IG it's one gem. where orion was, the power gem wouldn't even function which to me speaks clearly about the scope of power of the items in question, if not their respective depths. anyway, even if we allow for your definition, that being ecruos was the true, manifested opposite of the source (and that is not how i see it at all, i see antithesis here as meaning enemy, a entity who wanted the opposite of what the source wants) then how would you define its power level? its the opposite but way weaker? it's the equal to half the source's power? all speculation. and they didn't cancel each other out, not completely at least because antilife was not completely destroyed.

ecruos was clearly immensely powerful. the intent was crystal clear. your lucifer scan....really doesn't help. it wasn't some regular guy who could have chopped down the tree. were it that easy fenris would have simply chopped it down. the blood was the thing. ecruos was physically destroying the tree, something fenris couldn't do. and we also see thanks to the scan the extent of the damage that would have been wrought had the tree died. the ending of worldS. even in the orion retelling it says UNIVERSE but it also says ALL EXISTENCE. terminology is NOT consistent enough in anyway, to make an firm stance on. seems a lot more than one universe was at stake to me. you also mentioned the sandman allusion to anti-life. seems crystal clear to me that the ale was a multiversal power, which is all i said. we already agree orion wins so i'm good with that.

operator616
Originally posted by leonidas
wut? the ecruos wasn't the "opposite" of the source. it actively worked against it. you seemed to want to take the fact that it was opposed to the source as a reason for the ale working on it. the ale was simply more powerful ans so annihilated it.

you may have a point in one sense--when i refer to a multiversal power, i mean a being whose power extends beyond the bounds of any single universe. ecruos had that type of power. if thanos had the IG in our universe could he beat ecruos? who knows. maybe. speculation to say either would win. it's also tangential and was speculation when i raised the issue. this isn't the IG it's one gem. where orion was, the power gem wouldn't even function which to me speaks clearly about the scope of power of the items in question, if not their respective depths. anyway, even if we allow for your definition, that being ecruos was the true, manifested opposite of the source (and that is not how i see it at all, i see antithesis here as meaning enemy, a entity who wanted the opposite of what the source wants) then how would you define its power level? its the opposite but way weaker? it's the equal to half the source's power? all speculation. and they didn't cancel each other out, not completely at least because antilife was not completely destroyed.

ecruos was clearly immensely powerful. the intent was crystal clear. your lucifer scan....really doesn't help. it wasn't some regular guy who could have chopped down the tree. were it that easy fenris would have simply chopped it down. the blood was the thing. ecruos was physically destroying the tree, something fenris couldn't do. and we also see thanks to the scan the extent of the damage that would have been wrought had the tree died. the ending of worldS. even in the orion retelling it says UNIVERSE but it also says ALL EXISTENCE. terminology is NOT consistent enough in anyway, to make an firm stance on. seems a lot more than one universe was at stake to me. you also mentioned the sandman allusion to anti-life. seems crystal clear to me that the ale was a multiversal power, which is all i said. we already agree orion wins so i'm good with that.

.....read the scan again:

http://i.imgur.com/W0Vxgmf.jpg?1

"the equation is the antithesis of the ecruos"

and the retelling tells us they cancelled each other out.

clear as day.

and where's the proof that ecruos had multiversal power? there is a retelling a couple of issues forward that tells us orion saved the multiverse, but i could also post half a dozen scans to confirm what he threatened was only the universe, which is also evident by the fact that when the process started - when the universal destruction started - stars and planets were being destroyed not universes.

you brought up the IG, so i was replying to that, i am aware that thor only has the power gem here (which is why i said he loses)

no, the source (in its whole) is much more powerful than the anti life equation, proven by the fact that when darkseid acquired soul fire, the source was able to give darkseid a good fight (despite that the source lost) whose power utterly dwarfed the anti life equation:

http://i.imgur.com/Y4zrt3O.jpg

i never said that ecruos isn't powerful, not at all, but his exact power level can't be gauged.

and i brought that lucifer scan to show that it isn't hard to end existence through the tree, (and i already said that it can only be achieved by killing someone of his own blood).

leonidas
Originally posted by operator616
.....read the scan again:

http://i.imgur.com/W0Vxgmf.jpg?1

"the equation is the antithesis of the ecruos"

and the retelling tells us they cancelled each other out.

clear as day.

and where's the proof that ecruos had multiversal power? there is a retelling a couple of issues forward that tells us orion saved the multiverse, but i could also post half a dozen scans to confirm what he threatened was only the universe, which is also evident by the fact that when the process started - when the universal destruction started - stars and planets were being destroyed not universes.

you brought up the IG, so i was replying to that, i am aware that thor only has the power gem here (which is why i said he loses)

no, the source (in its whole) is much more powerful than the anti life equation, proven by the fact that when darkseid acquired soul fire, the source was able to give darkseid a good fight (despite that the source lost) whose power utterly dwarfed the anti life equation:

http://i.imgur.com/Y4zrt3O.jpg

i never said that ecruos isn't powerful, not at all, but his exact power level can't be gauged.

and i brought that lucifer scan to show that it isn't hard to end existence through the tree, (and i already said that it can only be achieved by killing someone of his own blood).

yah, we're still hung up on terminology. again, multiversal to me reflects SCOPE, not NECESSARILY depth of power. he was a multiversal power/threat, IMO, because he was able to destroy the tree and hence endanger the multiverse at large. you say it was a universal level threat but that doesn't make sense imo. which universe? ours? orion's? the scope of the tree was for certain multiversal imo. the fact that even fenris couldn't destroy it via physical means speaks to its power in some part.

also the idea of antithesis. ecruos was a force of chaos, no doubt, so in that sense yes, it was opposing the force. but not necessarily THE opposite. seems more likely ecruos would be the opposite of the lords of order. by that reasoning, are the lords of chaos also the opposite of the ALE? i don't really even have any issue with your assignation--i took exception to the idea that it was BECAUSE of this 'opposite-ness' that the ALE was able to work against him. that implies that it wouldn't have worked otherwise, which i think is pretty silly since it has worked on all manner of beings, chaos-related or not. or do you not think orion could have overpowered a lord of order with the ALE? imo he certainly could have.

again we're in agreement on a couple things--orion wins, and ecruos's true power can't really be fully gauged. i think we agree it was extremely powerful though as was shown through the context of that arc and was evident by its ability to destroy the tree physically. it was a multiversal threat imo, as the tree itself was a mutliversal entity, and it was defeated by the power of the ALE.

Galan007
Originally posted by operator616
@golgo13:

the anti life equation and anti life entity are one and the same:

first of all, we learn that the source was separated by 3 skyfathers (death of the new gods #5) and was seeking to reunite with its other half (anti life entity) ever since

http://i.imgur.com/tStKSig.jpg

and the major crisis events prevented it from reuniting from its other half (same issue)

http://i.imgur.com/fcTXDQy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Fn9IBVD.jpg

this entity in scott is the embodiment of the anti life equation (DOTG #7)

http://i.imgur.com/l5GZwm2.jpg

the source finally merges with it - reunites - and becomes whole (same issue)

http://i.imgur.com/o5xPj8f.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/OLmLhM2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RRq9DRn.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HAUaIdu.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/y1wzX9O.jpg Not much from DotNG is canon, though-- Final Crisis saw to that.

Mr Master
Originally posted by operator616

wisdom is part of omniscience, im not sure how can you
differentiate between them. and at the end of issue 85, literally the
last page proves that he isn't omniscient:

sure he had the "sight beyond sight" and even gazed into the
gungingap (norse void/nothingness) but he was never omniscient,
nor was it even mentioned.

------

the anti life equation and anti life entity are one and the same:
first of all, we learn that the source was separated by 3 skyfathers
(death of the new gods #5) and was seeking to reunite with its
other half (anti life entity) ever since
and the major crisis events prevented it from reuniting from its
other half (same issue)

this entity in scott is the embodiment of the anti life equation (DOTG #7)
the source finally merges with it - reunites - and becomes whole (same issue)
used the equation to defeat the Ecruos (orion #17);
they actually cancelled each other out (see the retelling from orion #18, to confirm this which i already posted)
that should also answer your other thread
Interesting stuff opr. Thanx for the info with scans. thumb up

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I remember that. While you do have to have a level of power to have an effect on the World Tree, damaging it doesn't in itself make you a Multiversal power. Enchantress was endangering creation similarly by warping the World Tree which is pretty crazy but not in itself evidence of Multiversal power.
Although I get the gist of your Enchantress analogy, I am guessing the DC Yggdrasil is not a complete equivalent of the Marvel Yggdrasil.

leonidas
you're correct in that assumption. thumb up dc/vertigo seemed to extend its influence beyond what marvel did. of course, it also throws a monkey wrench into some versions of cosmological continuity, but i guess marvel's tree may have some of the same implications. maybe?

TheGodKiller
^Iirc, in one of the Fraction-written issues, it was implied that the World Tree was connected to the whole metaverse or something. A professor type dude was explaining to Thor the concept of parallel worlds(in an unsuccessfully secularist manner) in that instance. Edit: It was Thor#615 I think.

That's the only occasion I know of where the Marvel Yggdrasil has been implicated to extend beyond the traditional Nine Realms. Though I am guessing Rage could pull out some more.

Galan007
What's a metaverse?

TheGodKiller
Based on comic book interpretation, collection of all the infinite number of possible universes that can, have or will ever exist.

Based on dictionary definition:"a virtual-reality space in which users can interact with a computer-generated environment and other users."

Galan007
So a different name for 'omniverse'?

TheGodKiller
Probably. The omniverse itself is an invented-by-comics term, and Fraction was trying to go for the Hawking/Sagan-type cosmologist feel in that scene.

Edit: IIRC, operator616 once produced a DC scan about a Shuma Gorath-like entity that was a threat to the metaverse.

Galan007
Yeah, Metron referenced a 'metaverse' in a mini called Superman/The Next.


Here's the scan:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16375522/1.jpg.html

operator616
@galan007:

i stated it in my original post:

Originally posted by operator616
defeated by 3 skyfathers in death of the new gods (though i find its canonicity questionable).



that aside, here's what dc defines the nature of the metaverse (the next #5) from the same mini you referenced:

http://i.imgur.com/VNXepBJ.jpg


@TheGodKiller:

the quantum metaverse was used to describe that all myths are in fact real, since all possible universes exist, im sure you've read it but im just posting it so the others might see it:

http://i.imgur.com/LiDgAUK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4RVAvPM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5jZ1DUM.jpg


also, in the recent deadpool killustrated miniseries marvel introduced the idea verse, it's a place where the ideas of the characters exist

deadpool killustrated #1, you'll also see a reference to the metaverse;

http://i.imgur.com/YAJp4wU.jpg


so now marvel has:

omniverse
ideaverse
megaverse
metaverse
multiverse



laughing out loud

leonidas
good lord. and THAT is precisely the reason why i think it is ridiculous to take a stance (at times) on on-panel terminology. so many of the terms are interchangeable and open to subjective definition that the context really needs to be examined in full. going by the definition of a metaverse, perhaps the 2 trees are the SAME tree! laughing out loud

Galan007
Metaverse is interchangeable with omniverse for sure.

Golgo13
Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, Metron referenced a 'metaverse' in a mini called Superman/The Next.


Here's the scan:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16375522/1.jpg.html

Ridiculous. In that same mini series, it was said DC also had an "Omniverse".

sneer

Golgo13
Originally posted by operator616
@galan007:

i stated it in my original post:



that aside, here's what dc defines the nature of the metaverse (the next #5) from the same mini you referenced:

http://i.imgur.com/VNXepBJ.jpg


@TheGodKiller:

the quantum metaverse was used to describe that all myths are in fact real, since all possible universes exist, im sure you've read it but im just posting it so the others might see it:

http://i.imgur.com/LiDgAUK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4RVAvPM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5jZ1DUM.jpg


also, in the recent deadpool killustrated miniseries marvel introduced the idea verse, it's a place where the ideas of the characters exist

deadpool killustrated #1, you'll also see a reference to the metaverse;

http://i.imgur.com/YAJp4wU.jpg


so now marvel has:

omniverse
ideaverse
megaverse
metaverse
multiverse



laughing out loud

Both companies have the same shit.

Galan007
Yeah, DC has been referred to as a multiverse, megaverse, metaverse, and omniverse. Lmao.

Why can't either company just agree on one term to describe its totality..?

Branlor Swift
I still don't know what a megaverse is supposed to be, and why it's different

Golgo13
Opperator posted the scans of DC's definition of Metaverse (or Mega, always get it confused), and it seems to be larger than an Omniverse.

Operator?

Galan007
I *think* a Megaverse is supposed to be the designation for a grouping of multiple multiverses.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Opperator posted the scans of DC's definition of Metaverse (or Mega, always get it confused), and it seems to be larger than an Omniverse.

Operator? Megaverse=/=metaverse.

operator616
Originally posted by Golgo13
Opperator posted the scans of DC's definition of Metaverse (or Mega, always get it confused), and it seems to be larger than an Omniverse.

Operator?

no, nothing is bigger than the omniverse.

if you ask me, metaverse is closer to a megaverse.

marvel has specific definitions for those terms, to answer @branlor swift:

---------

that's what marvel's megaverse is (i posted this a while back)

LT's 2006 bio

http://i.imgur.com/TPSomFH.jpg?1

2005 handbook (both of them)

http://i.imgur.com/cldF2nP.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/5njhq1p.jpg?1

2007 handbook:

http://i.imgur.com/4GMWE1e.jpg?1


------
in dc 52 #52, it is stated that there will be a dawn of something called the megaverse:

http://i.imgur.com/BbyvkDh.jpg

Galan007
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I still don't know what a megaverse is supposed to be, and why it's different u r dum.

Branlor Swift
suck a nut hair

Originally posted by Galan007
I *think* a Megaverse is supposed to be the designation for a grouping of multiple multiverses.


Either way they all sound similar.

Galan007
Infinity is infinity IMO. <3

Branlor Swift
from my basic understanding, and refusal to read anything about any of them.

A multiverse is a shit ton of universes

A Megaverse is a shit ton of multiverses. Which is just... for ****'s sake

A Metaverse is pretty much a fiction verse. Like if I, or let's say a comic character like Batman were to write a universe where Superman was straight, it'd be in there. It's pretty much the fiction of the universes.

I'm going to ignore the Ideaverse since I just heard of it here.

And an Omniverse is a collection ervrythang (within that company).
Mind you, that sounds an awfully lot like a Megaverse, minus assuming that a Megaverse doesn't contain the Metaverse and the Omniverse does.

But I guess we assume that there are multiple Megaverses like there are Multiverses I guess.
Which both are retarded since a multiverse is supposed to be infinite, but I digress.

Although that scan with LT does seem to indicate there's only one megaverse per company... unless we ignore the DC angle and instead attribute it all to Marvel.

leonidas
^bwhahaha.....

galan's right--u am dumb.

Galan007
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
from my basic understanding, and refusal to read anything about any of them.

A multiverse is a shit ton of universes

A Megaverse is a shit ton of multiverses. Which is just... for ****'s sake

A Metaverse is pretty much a fiction verse. Like if I, or let's say a comic character like Batman were to write a universe where Superman was straight, it'd be in there. It's pretty much the fiction of the universes.

I'm going to ignore the Ideaverse since I just heard of it here.

And an Omniverse is a collection ervrythang (within that company).
Mind you, that sounds an awfully lot like a Megaverse, minus assuming that a Megaverse doesn't contain the Metaverse and the Omniverse does.

But I guess we assume that there are multiple Megaverses like there are Multiverses I guess.
Which both are retarded since a multiverse is supposed to be infinite, but I digress.

Although that scan with LT does seem to indicate there's only one megaverse per company... unless we ignore the DC angle and instead attribute it all to Marvel. Sounds about right. thumb up

operator616
the definitions are not consistent though,

we have the omniverse being defined as being infinite multiverses, from the new exiles #1 letter's page:

http://i.imgur.com/yARZYy7.jpg?1 (continuation in the next scan)
http://i.imgur.com/hzXtbIR.jpg?1

you'll also notice that he referred to earth-1218 as being "us here" that's the real world according to marvel, is this a joke? well, apparently not seeing how marvunapp (which is approved by marvel and i can show you evidence to those who like) assigns it as being the real world:

http://www.marvunapp.com/ohotmu/appendixes/ccdapp.htm

^look for earth 1218, shouldn't be hard to find since they're listed in order, it says:

----
real world that we, readers, live in

----

quasar #31, omniverse is continuum of multiverses:

http://i.imgur.com/NjcXoyY.jpg

these are the same definitions that the megaverse has.

so the definitions are not consistent at all, and i could go on, i have many more, but ill leave it here.

Branlor Swift
Originally posted by operator616
the definitions are not consistent though,

we have the omniverse being defined as being infinite multiverses, from the new exiles #1 letter's page:

http://i.imgur.com/yARZYy7.jpg?1 (continuation in the next scan)
http://i.imgur.com/hzXtbIR.jpg?1

you'll also notice that he referred to earth-1218 as being "us here" that's the real world according to marvel, is this a joke? well, apparently not seeing how marvunapp (which is approved by marvel and i can show you evidence to those who like) assigns it as being the real world:

http://www.marvunapp.com/ohotmu/appendixes/ccdapp.htm

^look for earth 1218, shouldn't be hard to find since they're listed in order, it says:

----
real world that we, readers, live in

----

quasar #31, omniverse is continuum of multiverses:

http://i.imgur.com/NjcXoyY.jpg

these are the same definitions that the megaverse has.

so the definitions are not consistent at all, and i could go on, i have many more, but ill leave it here. I don't think the idea of "metaverse" existed when those comics were produced.

Like I said, assuming that the omniverse contains the Metaverse, then that's the separator. Unless we also assume that a Megaverse has a threshold and there are multiple megaverses.

Mr Master
Originally posted by operator616

you'll also notice that he referred to earth-1218 as being "us here"
that's the real world according to marvel, is this a joke? well,
apparently not seeing how marvunapp (which is approved by
marvel and i can show you evidence to those who like) assigns it as
being the real world:

http://www.marvunapp.com/ohotmu/appendixes/ccdapp.htm

^look for earth 1218, shouldn't be hard to find since they're listed in order, it says:

----
real world that we, readers, live in

Surely they mean "our universe" in the comic book world.

So basically another alternate universe, but representing our real world.

I think ... ouch, regardless, senseless. laughing out loud

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Although I get the gist of your Enchantress analogy, I am guessing the DC Yggdrasil is not a complete equivalent of the Marvel Yggdrasil. Originally posted by leonidas
you're correct in that assumption. thumb up dc/vertigo seemed to extend its influence beyond what marvel did. of course, it also throws a monkey wrench into some versions of cosmological continuity, but i guess marvel's tree may have some of the same implications. maybe?

The Marvel World Tree is Multiversal or higher at this point.

Like I said, just because an entity is able to affect creation through damaging the World Tree is not in anyway evidence that they are Multiversal themselves in scope. It's like arguing that a character can collapse a building by taking out a support beam is evidence that they can destroy a building through sheer power.

leonidas
@bran: and of course that is a large part of the problem. new terminology is constantly being thrown out there. someone gets a cool idea and a new name and suddenly no one knows what is what or where the bounds are. same has always been the case for universe/dimension/reality/world/cosmos etc.... marvel may put out definitions that they CLAIM are rigid and to be adhered to, butttt....... as anyone who reads comics will attest--those goalposts move ALL THE TIME. context and writer intent trumps terminology which is far far too flexible. stances really can't be built in the strength of terminology--at least not in many cases.

Branlor Swift
Originally posted by leonidas
@bran: and of course that is a large part of the problem. new terminology is constantly being thrown out there. someone gets a cool idea and a new name and suddenly no one knows what is what or where the bounds are. same has always been the case for universe/dimension/reality/world/cosmos etc.... marvel may put out definitions that they CLAIM are rigid and to be adhered to, butttt....... as anyone who reads comics will attest--those goalposts move ALL THE TIME. context and writer intent trumps terminology which is far far too flexible. stances really can't be built in the strength of terminology--at least not in many cases. I agree.

Which is why I'm going to ignore this ideaverse on the state of principle.

operator616
^

the ideaverse is a realm where the very concept of characters come from (according to marvel), that's why deadpool wanted to destroy it, because if he does, he'll erase the concepts from which the various characters are build upon (in other words it's the realm of ideas form which characters are formed) , it's also a pocket multiverse, deadpool killustrated #2

http://i.imgur.com/ZRaIZ0x.jpg


so, technically it should be inside the megaverse.

@rageofolympus:

higher than the multiverse? do you have proof of this? id like to hear it

in thor #616 it says that the world tree connects to universes and these are just the tip of an infinite iceberg:

http://i.imgur.com/XLsOGg5.jpg

anyway, ill also have to look in the official handbooks but that'll take time.

Rage.Of.Olympus
It was linked to the Metaverse. That's like a cluster of Multiverses no?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Yggrdasil is the Axis Mundi or Cosmic Axis; it exists in all planes of reality, connects all the worlds and it holds the cosmos together.
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/WorldTree7.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/RagnarokThor73.jpg

Tampering and unleashing its power literally warps all of reality, and if not careful it can destroy all of creation.
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/WorldTree1.jpg
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/WorldTree3.jpg
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/WorldTree4.jpg
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/WorldTree5.jpg

The Cosmic Axis also connects to not only the Nine Worlds but a much larger Metaverse structrue:
http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16179149_Thor_615_003.jpghttp://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16179150_Thor616-014-015.jpg

The feat was impressive because the World Tree is powerful. For something a bit more recent, the entire Galactus arc as about the World Seed, that will bloom and create the next cycle of creation as everything ends, it's power is unending:
http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16179241_The_Mighty_Thor_2_014-15.jpghttp://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16179236_MightyThor03-014-015.jpghttp://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16179238_MightyThor03-016-017.jpg

Also note that Asgard and all the Nine Worlds are the hearts of their own fully formed Universes like Earth is for the 616, Asgard's is known as Asgard-Space as of Fraction.The Tenth World came from their own Universe which was suffering Entropic Death:
http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16179151_Thor616-016-017.jpghttp://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16179152_Thor616-020-021.jpghttp://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16179153_Thor616-022-023.jpg

The feat was never impressive because the World Tree is big, it was impressive because the World Tree is powerful. Also, the World Tree is infinitely big, it spans all of space/time, what we see is just a visual representation. For example:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16179239/The_Mighty_Thor_1_013-14.jpg.html
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/RagnarokThor73.jpg

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The Marvel World Tree is Multiversal or higher at this point.

Like I said, just because an entity is able to affect creation through damaging the World Tree is not in anyway evidence that they are Multiversal themselves in scope. It's like arguing that a character can collapse a building by taking out a support beam is evidence that they can destroy a building through sheer power.
I wasn't commenting specifically on the scale at which both operate. I thought I made this clear to Leo when I told him about Thor#615?

TheGodKiller
@Bran and operator: I doubt that any of the Marvel definitions of megaverse actually suggest that it's an infinite number of multiverses.

More like an already infinite multiverse plus some additional universes that appear in other Marvel-affiliated comic publications.

infinity+10>infinity or something like that. With it being a Cantorian infinity of course.

ozz81
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It was linked to the Metaverse. That's like a cluster of Multiverses no?

Wow just amazing! ( the scans you posted up i meant) thumb up

operator616
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It was linked to the Metaverse. That's like a cluster of Multiverses no?

no, its definition is mentioned in that same scan you posted - infinite universes. But as i said before, you can't give these terms specific definitions, because some issues state that even the omniverse is only composed of infinite worlds/universes:


new exiles #3:

http://i.imgur.com/esS5vRl.jpg?1

going by this definition, omniverse = multiverse.

there is no solid definition for the metaverse, but i don't see anything that indicates it is more than a multiverse (till now, maybe it will in the near future). infinite universes = multiverse, and nothing more.

that aside, here's a scan of the tree from the 2nd volume of OHOTMU:

http://i.imgur.com/RDu8N2g.jpg

i also remember a representation of the tree in the more recent handbooks, can't seem to find it at the moment.

while i appreciate your efforts for posting this i don't see anything suggesting the tree is linked to more than the multiverse

curryman
lmao at marvel implying that their character-ideas come from some universe, as opposed to just being stolen.

operator616
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
@Bran and operator: I doubt that any of the Marvel definitions of megaverse actually suggest that it's an infinite number of multiverses.

More like an already infinite multiverse plus some additional universes that appear in other Marvel-affiliated comic publications.

infinity+10>infinity or something like that. With it being a Cantorian infinity of course.

note that the marvel multiverse is already trans-infinite:

doctor strange sorcerer supreme #21:

http://i.imgur.com/ZIee5oB.jpg

but you do have a point, there is no evidence pointing toward that megaverse = infinite multiverses, but it seems like - as you said - that a megaverse = trans infinite multiverse + closely associated realities that are outside said multiverse.

Mr Master
The "Ideaverse" is one of the dumbest ideas I've seen Marvel produce,
concerning its cosmology. (if its actually part of it)

Historically the Deadpool line is more of a joke than anything else,
let's just hope that's some idiotic silliness confined to Deadpool's world.
Anyway, yall know Marvel's structure,
I've posted all those Marvel scans for years now, except the Deadpool comedy.

The Marvel Omniverse is simply all its universes.
So, ie. it is an infinite amount of universes just like in that Exiles scan
I posted many times before.
We know how to differentiate between "omniverse" and multiverse"
by paying attention to the context of the story.

Simple.

Galan007
Originally posted by operator616
doctor strange sorcerer supreme #21:

http://i.imgur.com/ZIee5oB.jpg "a number greater than infinity."

Lol. facepalm

TheGodKiller
^Georg Cantor is lolling at you from his grave.

TheGodKiller
Anyways, Leo pretty much summed up everyone's "ideas" regarding the neverending terminologies that Marvel keeps on applying to a collection infinite universes.

Guess that particular aspect of the discussion is over.

Galan007
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
^Georg Cantor is lolling at you from his grave. I just hate when the concept of infinity is treated like a finite numerical designation.

TheGodKiller
^From a layman's perspective, I guess you would be right.

From a mathematical perspective though, I doubt it's that much of a problem.

Galan007
Even in mathematics, infinity is never treated as a finite numerical designation. That said, while I understand the concept that Marvel was trying to apply in that comic, they used piss-poor verbiage to do so.

"a number greater than infinity"-- this is a laughably absurd choice of dialogue to use. Infinity is not a finite "number". They could have just said "infinity beyond infinity" or somesuch-- that would have at least been a bit more in-line with Cantor's theorem. /shrug

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by Galan007
Even in mathematics, infinity is never treated as a finite numerical designation. That said, while I understand the concept that Marvel was trying to apply in that comic, they used piss-poor verbiage to do so.

"a number greater than infinity"-- this is a laughably absurd choice of dialogue to use. Infinity is not a finite "number". They could have just said "infinity beyond infinity" or somesuch-- that would have at least been a bit more in-line with Cantor's theorem. /shrug
Not sure what your problem is since transfinite numbers are called....well transfinite numbers.

And each of them is bigger than all the possible finite numbers.

Blue Area Vet
Originally posted by Galan007
Even in mathematics, infinity is never treated as a finite numerical designation. That said, while I understand the concept that Marvel was trying to apply in that comic, they used piss-poor verbiage to do so.

"a number greater than infinity"-- this is a laughably absurd choice of dialogue to use. Infinity is not a finite "number". They could have just said "infinity beyond infinity" or somesuch-- that would have at least been a bit more in-line with Cantor's theorem. /shrug

For the average non mathmetician, the usage of the term "number" was probably done for practicality.

Galan007
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Not sure what your problem is since transfinite numbers are called....well transfinite numbers.

And each of them is bigger than all the possible finite numbers. Again, the quote used was: "a number greater than infinity."

Infinity isn't a finite number with a numerical designation. srsly

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by Galan007
Again, the quote used was: "a number greater than infinity."

Infinity isn't a finite number with a numerical designation. srsly
A transfinite number is technically infinite and it's still referred to as a "number". That much should have been evident in my previous post.

You're unnecessarily getting upset over Marvel's usage of semantics in a case where there is no need to be so.

Galan007
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
A transfinite number is technically infinite and it's still referred to as a "number". That much should have been evident in my previous post.

You're unnecessarily getting upset over Marvel's usage of semantics in a case where there is no need to be so. Lol. I'm not "upset" about anything(for some reason calling people "upset" always seems to be your deflection of choice.) I am just pointing out the oxymoronic dialogue in a fictional scan. The point of Cantor's theorem isn't that infinity is a 'number' that can be quantified, nor is it a 'number' that ever comes to an end. The point is that one infinity can exist within another infinity-- both are infinite in nature, but one is seemingly more encompassing than the other.

Again: infinity is not a "number"-- infinity is a concept which, by definition, cannot end. Therefore, it cannot be quantified numerically(that's why we describe infinity with a symbol and not a number), which subsequently means that there are no "numbers" greater than infinity. If infinity could be given a numerical designation, then the concept of infinity would be defeated across the board.

The poor dialogue of that scene doesn't change the concept Marvel was going for, though. It's just kind of funny, is all. DC's done the same nonsensical crap too.

Golgo13
Originally posted by Galan007
Lol. I'm not "upset" about anything(for some reason calling people "upset" always seems to be your deflection of choice.) I am just pointing out the oxymoronic dialogue in a fictional scan. The point of Cantor's theorem isn't that infinity is a 'number' that can be quantified, nor is it a 'number' that ever comes to an end. The point is that one infinity can exist within another infinity-- both are infinite in nature, but one is seemingly more encompassing than the other.

Again: infinity is not a "number"-- infinity is a concept which, by definition, cannot end. Therefore, it cannot be quantified numerically(that's why we describe infinity with a symbol and not a number), which subsequently means that there are no "numbers" greater than infinity. If infinity could be given a numerical designation, then the concept of infinity would be defeated across the board.

The poor dialogue of that scene doesn't change the concept Marvel was going for, though. It's just kind of funny, is all. DC's done the same nonsensical crap too.


GALAN, CALM DOWN. stick out tongue

J/K People telling me to calm down is highly annoying.

operator616
Originally posted by Mr Master


The Marvel Omniverse is simply all its universes.
So, ie. it is an infinite amount of universes just like in that Exiles scan
I posted many times before.
We know how to differentiate between "omniverse" and multiverse"
by paying attention to the context of the story.

Simple.

so what's the difference between exiles' omniverse and the normal multiverse, then?? because in exiles it's portrayed as being infinite universes and nothing more.

and the way i see it, exiles' omniverse is not that impressive, because:

1. it is only infinite universes (which is basically the same as a multiverse, or even less), stated and shown many times on panel.

2. it's...fragile, since we have a battle between the english and the french empires (of an alternate earth) threaten to destabilize a significant portion of the omniverse.....(the 2nd one is a recap)

http://i.imgur.com/aWDQswP.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/pHLtVdP.jpg?1

and this alternate earth wasn't even mentioned to be a prime dimension.

leonidas
Originally posted by operator616
so what's the difference between exiles' omniverse and the normal multiverse, then?? because in exiles it's portrayed as being infinite universes and nothing more.

and the way i see it, exiles' omniverse is not that impressive, because:

1. it is only infinite universes (which is basically the same as a multiverse, or even less), stated and shown many times on panel.

2. it's...fragile, since we have a battle between the english and the french empires (of an alternate earth) threaten to destabilize a significant portion of the omniverse.....(the 2nd one is a recap)

http://i.imgur.com/aWDQswP.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/pHLtVdP.jpg?1

and this alternate earth wasn't even mentioned to be a prime dimension.

lol

thumb up

Sundipped
Originally posted by leonidas
@bran: and of course that is a large part of the problem. new terminology is constantly being thrown out there. someone gets a cool idea and a new name and suddenly no one knows what is what or where the bounds are. same has always been the case for universe/dimension/reality/world/cosmos etc.... marvel may put out definitions that they CLAIM are rigid and to be adhered to, butttt....... as anyone who reads comics will attest--those goalposts move ALL THE TIME. context and writer intent trumps terminology which is far far too flexible. stances really can't be built in the strength of terminology--at least not in many cases.

thumb up Pretty much.
The terms universe/dimension and reality are extremely synonymous.

abhilegend
Originally posted by operator616
so what's the difference between exiles' omniverse and the normal multiverse, then?? because in exiles it's portrayed as being infinite universes and nothing more.

and the way i see it, exiles' omniverse is not that impressive, because:

1. it is only infinite universes (which is basically the same as a multiverse, or even less), stated and shown many times on panel.

2. it's...fragile, since we have a battle between the english and the french empires (of an alternate earth) threaten to destabilize a significant portion of the omniverse.....(the 2nd one is a recap)

http://i.imgur.com/aWDQswP.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/pHLtVdP.jpg?1

and this alternate earth wasn't even mentioned to be a prime dimension.
laughing out loud

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by operator616
it's...fragile, since we have a battle between the english and the french empires (of an alternate earth) threaten to destabilize a significant portion of the omniverse.....(the 2nd one is a recap)

http://i.imgur.com/aWDQswP.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/pHLtVdP.jpg?1

and this alternate earth wasn't even mentioned to be a prime dimension.
Those alternate French and British Empires were legit omniversal powers.

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by Galan007
Lol. I'm not "upset" about anything(for some reason calling people "upset" always seems to be your deflection of choice.) I am just pointing out the oxymoronic dialogue in a fictional scan. The point of Cantor's theorem isn't that infinity is a 'number' that can be quantified, nor is it a 'number' that ever comes to an end. The point is that one infinity can exist within another infinity-- both are infinite in nature, but one is seemingly more encompassing than the other.

Again: infinity is not a "number"-- infinity is a concept which, by definition, cannot end. Therefore, it cannot be quantified numerically(that's why we describe infinity with a symbol and not a number), which subsequently means that there are no "numbers" greater than infinity. If infinity could be given a numerical designation, then the concept of infinity would be defeated across the board.

The poor dialogue of that scene doesn't change the concept Marvel was going for, though. It's just kind of funny, is all. DC's done the same nonsensical crap too.
Except there isn't really anything oxymoronic in that instance. You can either chalk it up to Marvel trying to write in a manner which would make sense to a layperson, or you can go down the more logical road and and realize that transfinite numbers, which are technically "infinite", are referred to as "numbers". Hell, the scan ultimately concludes by mentioning that the "multiverse is a transfinite number". Cantor's Theorem explicitly designates these bigger and smaller infinities that you're talking about as transfinite numbers.

That's absolute infinity, not a transfinite number. Seriously, just google the term transfinite number.

There isn't really anything wrong with the dialogue. Although I do expect you to skip my post, purposely ignore the highlighted "transfinite number" statements again, and end up repeating the same point ad nauseum.

Galan007
Originally posted by TheGodKiller

Except there isn't really anything oxymoronic in that instance. You can either chalk it up to Marvel trying to write in a manner which would make sense to a layperson, or you can go down the more logical road and and realize that transfinite numbers, which are technically "infinite", are referred to as "numbers". Hell, the scan ultimately concludes by mentioning that the "multiverse is a transfinite number". Cantor's Theorem explicitly designates these bigger and smaller infinities that you're talking about as transfinite numbers.

That's absolute infinity, not a transfinite number. Seriously, just google the term transfinite number.

There isn't really anything wrong with the dialogue. Although I do expect you to skip my post, purposely ignore the highlighted "transfinite number" statements again, and end up repeating the same point ad nauseum.I understand that they are referred to as transinfinite numbers. However, that doesn't mean an actual number beyond infinity exists, as Marvel alluded to in that scan. Infinity cannot be designated numerically. Simple.

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by Galan007
This is obviously what it was, because there is not a "number" beyond infinity. thumb up
Transfinite number

You finally forced me to google it for you.

Will we reach a point where I have to crop the panel from that scan which reveals that transfinite numbers is what Strange is talking about?

Galan007
^^
Originally posted by Galan007
I understand that they are referred to as transinfinite numbers. However, that doesn't mean an actual number beyond infinity exists, as Marvel alluded to in that scan. Infinity cannot be designated numerically. Simple. You clearly aren't understand me correctly.

TheGodKiller
Ah, lat minute edits are easily missed.

Anyways, what you're referring here is absolute infinity, not the regular baseline infinity that Cantor's transfinite numbers are centered around.

Hope that clarified your doubt.

Galan007
To clarify(even though I shouldn't have to):
In the fictional world of Marvel comics, I have no doubt that there is a "number beyond infinity"-- that's the thing about fiction: you can do whatever the hell you want. I am just pointing out how poor that dialogue sounds from a 'real world' perspective.

Why? Because infinity, by its very nature, cannot be quantified with a number. Therefore, the statement "a number beyond infinity", makes it sound like infinity can be designated numerically, which was just a poor choice of dialogue imo, because we know it can't be. The real world concept of 'transinfinite numbers' doesn't change a word I just said.

That's all I'm saying.

TheGodKiller
That really isn't the case though. Prior to Cantor, everyone thought there was only one infinity.

Transfinite numbers are way of proving the existence of numbers that are bigger than this baseline infinity.

Thus showing that there is absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever with Marvel's choice of dialogue in that scan. Transfinite numbers completely sh1t on your ill-informed accusations against Marvel narrative, as the scan is actually talking ABOUT transfinite numbers. Or did you miss the last panel where Strange mentions it?

Galan007
I have no issue with one infinity existing within a more encompassing infinity. However, that doesn't change the fact that there is not a "number" beyond infinity, as the scan implies. Suggesting otherwise is to suggest that it is possible to count to infinity-- a laughably ridiculous notion. Again: the concept of transinfinite numbers DOES NOT suggest that infinity can come to an end and/or be given an ultimate numerical designation. If you disagree, then you need to research it a bit more, because you are wrong.

In the end it doesn't matter, because Marvel still solidified the concept in their works, and it was obvious what they were going for... It still could have been worded better, though.

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by Galan007
I have no issue with one infinity existing within a more encompassing infinity. However, that doesn't change the fact that there is not a "number" beyond infinity, as the scan implies. Suggesting otherwise is to suggest that it is possible to count to infinity-- a laughably ridiculous notion. Again: the concept of transinfinite numbers DOES NOT suggest that infinity can come to an end and/or be given an ultimate numerical designation. If you disagree, then you need to research it a bit more, because you are wrong.
I actually fell out of my chair laughing out loud at that last bit. The highlighted one.

Anyways, the fact that transfinite numbers are technically "infinite", and coupled with the fact that said infinities are referred to as a type of "number", it's pretty clear to me who's right and who's wrong. Hint: it's not you.

Galan007
I'm wrong, eh?

Okay, then please provide me with a source stating that infinity can come to an end, and can be quantified with a numerical designation. This is a rhetorical question, because I know that no such proof exists. If infinity could be quantified by a specific number, then it wouldn't be infinite at all-- it would be finite. Very, very simple concept.

And once more(I shouldn't have to repeat myself this much): the concept of "transinfinite numbers" does not suggest that infinity can come to an end and/or be given an ultimate numerical designation. If you think it does suggest that there is a finite end to infinity(lol?), then you honestly have no clue what you are talking about.

TheGodKiller
^I am not sure whether you're purposely trying to troll here, if you have serious reading comprehension problems, or you're just arguing to argue.

But anyways, if you missed the proof that I've been providing in the last 5 or 6 posts, I don't know how to help you here. Nor do I understand where exactly are you getting this ridiculous idea that infinity comes to an end, because the scan doesn't suggest any such thing, and I certainly never did.

TheGodKiller
Anyways, I am not sure exactly how this thread ended up getting derailed from a discussion about Orion and Rune King Thor to one concerning Marvel's choice of semantics when describing transfinite numbers.

So Galan, considering that you don't have the first clue as to what you're talking about here, I'll let you have the last word. thumb up

Galan007
laughing out loud

You keep bringing up the term "transinfinite numbers" as though it means anything at all in regard to my point. It doesn't. If you think it does, then you must not have a good grasp on what I have been saying or a good grasp on the concept itself. Why? Because the concept of "transinfinite numbers" does not suggest that infinity can come to an end or be given an ultimate numerical designation.

Infinity cannot be "counted to", nor is there some sort of oxymoronic finite end to it. That said, infinity, by its very definition, cannot be quantified with a specific number. Therefore, the statement: "a number greater than infinity" is nonsensical terminology by real world standards.

Failure to recognize the above as 100% fact(because that's what it is) shows me that you really have no clue what you're arguing at this point.

TheGodKiller
Orion wins.

And these:
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Those alternate French and British Empires were legit omniversal powers.
Beat them both.

Galan007
With that much, we agree. thumb up

Branlor Swift
Galan just doesn't understand math

Proper_
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It was linked to the Metaverse. That's like a cluster of Multiverses no?

Where are these scans from what issues? I appreciate it if you could tell me

Juntai
Originally posted by Galan007
laughing out loud

You keep bringing up the term "transinfinite numbers" as though it means anything at all in regard to my point. It doesn't. If you think it does, then you must not have a good grasp on what I have been saying or a good grasp on the concept itself. Why? Because the concept of "transinfinite numbers" does not suggest that infinity can come to an end or be given an ultimate numerical designation.

Infinity cannot be "counted to", nor is there some sort of oxymoronic finite end to it. That said, infinity, by its very definition, cannot be quantified with a specific number. Therefore, the statement: "a number greater than infinity" is nonsensical terminology by real world standards.

Failure to recognize the above as 100% fact(because that's what it is) shows me that you really have no clue what you're arguing at this point. Actually, the word he keeps using is transfinite, not transinfinite.

Transfinite is actually less than or equal to infinity, but more than finite.

Weird term.

One Big Mob
Originally posted by Juntai
Actually, the word he keeps using is transfinite, not transinfinite.

Transfinite is actually less than or equal to infinity, but more than finite.

Weird term. Galan needed to hear this as it's been weighing heavily on his decrepit back for 7 years. Better late than never Carver always says when he kidnaps his now adult victims. thumb up

MrMind
Originally posted by Juntai
Actually, the word he keeps using is transfinite, not transinfinite.

Transfinite is actually less than or equal to infinity, but more than finite.

Weird term.

according to marvel, transfinite is bigger than infinity

https://www.hoodedutilitarian.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Cantor.jpg

ShadowFyre
How about y'all let infinity decide whether it wants to be trans or not. Quit assuming..

Diesldude
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Galan needed to hear this as it's been weighing heavily on his decrepit back for 7 years. Better late than never Carver always says when he kidnaps his now adult victims. thumb up laughing out loud

Diesldude
Originally posted by MrMind
according to marvel, transfinite is bigger than infinity

https://www.hoodedutilitarian.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Cantor.jpg middle scan tells us exactly what it is.

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