Team Battle Royale Between Platform Duos

The Scenario

Skyward Sword Link had the full Triforce...

Even without that, yeah, the Four Sword splits Link into four for a total of 5 guys on the Nintendo side. (I'd have gone with Samus over Fox, but eh.)

In Adventure of Link there is a spell known simply as Spell. It has the effect of transforming enemies on screen into little blobs of slime that are pathetically easy to kill. There's also a Life spell that heals him at the cost of a lot of magic (but see Majora's Mask, below.)

A Link to the Past has the Quake Medallion, which has essentially the same effect, turning enemies on the ground into weak blobs. Bombos Medallion sets things on fire and Ether Medallion freezes things in an AoE as well. The Magic Cape makes Link invisible and intangible. The Cane of Byrna projects a forcefield that protects Link and damages enemies that touch him.

Phantom Hourglass features the Phantom Sword, which allows Link to stop time.

Majora's Mask gives Link the Chateau Romani, a potion/drink that gives him unlimited magic power for at least 6 days. The Ocarina of Time also lets him slow down time. The Stone Mask makes him completely invisible and unnoticeable. The Giant Mask makes him a giant. (Combine Chateau Romani and, say, the Life spell, for hilarity. Or anything that needs magic, really.)

Wind Waker Link has Light Arrows that disintegrate targets and the Fire and Ice arrows can stop blizzards and cool down volcanos, respectively. (Magic Armor protects Link from harm at the cost of magic. See Chateau Romani.)

And so on. That's all I can recall off the top of my head, but you get the idea. Composite Link can get ridiculous when you combine things that aren't really meant to go together.

NotAllThatEvil

Link's biggest concern would be not accidentally killing fox.

Also, I just imagined four Fierce Deities with unlimited magic.

Sacred 117

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
If he doesn't just wish for the victory, he can just toss them into space.

Hilarious issue that occurred to me pertaining to this. This would not be Link's first instinct, so it's technical CIS. However, in this scenario, there is a convenient, coincidental workaround to this.

Problem: Link doesn't know about space. Solution: Fox does. wink

Originally posted by COG Veteran
Link is essentially a god compared to the rest of these guys. Everyone else should just throw their weapons down and pray to him. Maybe he'll spare them.

We should do the same! WE'RE NOT WORTHY! WE'RE NOT WORTHY! WE'RE NOT WORTHY! laughing

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Link spares no man. Their hearts will be added to his collection of disembodiedorgans to make him stronger.

CIS. Link is not this cruel.

Originally posted by COG Veteran
So i guess we can all agree that Link will solo. Kratos will finally know true pain.

Kratos: *Charges Link with Sword of Olympus.*

Link: *Dodges and palms Kratos.*

Fox: (During firefight with remaining combatants) "THROW HIM INTO SPACE!"

Link: confused

Fox: *Glares at Link and points up.*

Link: *Nods approvingly and hurls Kratos into the great beyond.*

Everyone else:...

Marcus: What the hell?...

Link: *Proceeds to blitz Marcus, Chief, and Jak into oblivion (in that order).

ROFLGIGASTOMP!

Originally posted by The Scenario
Skyward Sword Link had the full Triforce...

Even without that, yeah, the Four Sword splits Link into four for a total of 5 guys on the Nintendo side. (I'd have gone with Samus over Fox, but eh.)

In Adventure of Link there is a spell known simply as Spell. It has the effect of transforming enemies on screen into little blobs of slime that are pathetically easy to kill. There's also a Life spell that heals him at the cost of a lot of magic (but see Majora's Mask, below.)

A Link to the Past has the Quake Medallion, which has essentially the same effect, turning enemies on the ground into weak blobs. Bombos Medallion sets things on fire and Ether Medallion freezes things in an AoE as well. The Magic Cape makes Link invisible and intangible. The Cane of Byrna projects a forcefield that protects Link and damages enemies that touch him.

Phantom Hourglass features the Phantom Sword, which allows Link to stop time.

Majora's Mask gives Link the Chateau Romani, a potion/drink that gives him unlimited magic power for at least 6 days. The Ocarina of Time also lets him slow down time. The Stone Mask makes him completely invisible and unnoticeable. The Giant Mask makes him a giant. (Combine Chateau Romani and, say, the Life spell, for hilarity. Or anything that needs magic, really.)

Wind Waker Link has Light Arrows that disintegrate targets and the Fire and Ice arrows can stop blizzards and cool down volcanos, respectively. (Magic Armor protects Link from harm at the cost of magic. See Chateau Romani.)

And so on. That's all I can recall off the top of my head, but you get the idea. Composite Link can get ridiculous when you combine things that aren't really meant to go together.

Yeah! Much of this I had overlooked. SPITE WAS NOT INTENDED!

NotAllThatEvil

Cis? Link removes the heart of almost every foe he goes up against. I think it might a hylian tradition or something.

COG Veteran

lol spite. Or just replace Link with a "lesser" character.

NotAllThatEvil

Or just pick ONE link to represent.

Sacred 117

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Cis? Link removes the heart of almost every foe he goes up against. I think it might a hylian tradition or something.

Not by malicious, relentlessly brutal means. He's not War from Darksiders (despite similarities).

NotAllThatEvil

I think it might be a hylian tradition. Removing the heart of a fallen adversary is just something he does.

Sacred 117

Hmm... I didn't know that was something he ACTUALLY did. I've learned a lot in this thread.

Sacred 117

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Or just pick ONE link to represent.

It would still feel like I was cutting him short. If you wish to narrow it down, we'll work with 3D adaptations. Would that be fair, or does it even matter at this point?

Sacred 117

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
What ever his opponent can dish out, link takes less than7% of it, golden gaunlets plus how many power bands means he can lift mountains, he has the full triforce three times over, and he has fairy tears which double all that. If he doesn't just wish for the victory, he can just toss them into space. And if that is still not enough, there's four of him each with equal strength. Maybe he's not fast enough? BAM! bunny hood, song of time, Pegasus boots.

... also fox can fly.
Originally posted by The Scenario
Skyward Sword Link had the full Triforce...

Even without that, yeah, the Four Sword splits Link into four for a total of 5 guys on the Nintendo side. (I'd have gone with Samus over Fox, but eh.)

In Adventure of Link there is a spell known simply as Spell. It has the effect of transforming enemies on screen into little blobs of slime that are pathetically easy to kill. There's also a Life spell that heals him at the cost of a lot of magic (but see Majora's Mask, below.)

A Link to the Past has the Quake Medallion, which has essentially the same effect, turning enemies on the ground into weak blobs. Bombos Medallion sets things on fire and Ether Medallion freezes things in an AoE as well. The Magic Cape makes Link invisible and intangible. The Cane of Byrna projects a forcefield that protects Link and damages enemies that touch him.

Phantom Hourglass features the Phantom Sword, which allows Link to stop time.

Majora's Mask gives Link the Chateau Romani, a potion/drink that gives him unlimited magic power for at least 6 days. The Ocarina of Time also lets him slow down time. The Stone Mask makes him completely invisible and unnoticeable. The Giant Mask makes him a giant. (Combine Chateau Romani and, say, the Life spell, for hilarity. Or anything that needs magic, really.)

Wind Waker Link has Light Arrows that disintegrate targets and the Fire and Ice arrows can stop blizzards and cool down volcanos, respectively. (Magic Armor protects Link from harm at the cost of magic. See Chateau Romani.)

And so on. That's all I can recall off the top of my head, but you get the idea. Composite Link can get ridiculous when you combine things that aren't really meant to go together.

I would like to respond to these once more by saying... GOOD LORD!!! What is his rank in the comic universe?!

NotAllThatEvil

Less stacked but he's still outclassing everyone. Each link is actually their own seperate character with different lives and personalities. A few of them have even met eachother.

NotAllThatEvil

An individual link, it ranges from street to meta.
Composite link, herald.

Sacred 117

Very well. If we should continue with this, how should we go about it? I'm giving you say in this.

NotAllThatEvil

Pick a link. Most can hold their own pretty well. Its only when you start adding them together that it becomes cheap.

Sacred 117

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
An individual link, it ranges from street to meta.

All Link's are capable of magic, so to my understanding, they're all beyond street by default.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Composite link, herald.

What tier level are we talking? Low? Mid? High?

Sacred 117

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Pick a link. Most can hold their own pretty well. Its only when you start adding them together that it becomes cheap.

Hmm... let's go with OoT. Would he still be cheap if he retained ancestral experience and Skyward Strike?

NotAllThatEvil

Nope. Besides the master sword, SS link has no magic.

I'm probably not the best perso to ask, I'm a very casual comic reader. He can lift mountains and move at mach speeds, but its his magic, gear, and time manipulation you have to worry about.

NotAllThatEvil

Just OoT, or all that particular link has done?

Sacred 117

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Just OoT, or all that particular link has done?

Could you elaborate?

NotAllThatEvil

The Hero of Time was the main protagonist in both OoT and Majora's Mask, as well as a npc in TP. OoT was in the top three for raw strength and knew some basic magic. MM is probably the fastest and most agile link who got by on sheer diversity. Throw in the swordsmanship he had in TP, and he is probably the most formidable link. Just OoT however, is too slow and doesn't have enough magic for his spells to be useful in a long fight.

Cyner

I feel like kratos stomps everything unless you include very specific versions of Link. This thread is a win by either kratos or link and the only thing that changes the outcome is which link is chosen. Everything else in the thread is fodder.

NotAllThatEvil

Does fox get ALL his ground weapons (excluding vehicles)?

Sacred 117

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
The Hero of Time was the main protagonist in both OoT and Majora's Mask, as well as a npc in TP. OoT was in the top three for raw strength and knew some basic magic. MM is probably the fastest and most agile link who got by on sheer diversity. Throw in the swordsmanship he had in TP, and he is probably the most formidable link.

We'll go with this since it includes experience from his bloodline.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Does fox get ALL his ground weapons (excluding vehicles)?

Yes, as do Marcus, Jak, and Chief. Team Micro doesn't have to look for them either.

Sacred 117

Originally posted by Cyner
Everything else in the thread is fodder.

How exactly? And don't say "Kratos kills Gods". I've heard that too much already. Of course, I don't expect that of you.

NotAllThatEvil

A barrier and a devil launcher/sniper rifle could probably hold off the other guys while a full powered Hero of Time takes on kratos. Its a lot closer, but if link plays it smart he should get the win.

Sacred 117

He always plays it smart though, with auto-focus and instant analysis and whatnot.

NotAllThatEvil

But kratos doesn't have any obvious weakness that I can remember. If link can somehow make him angry or start fighting sloppy, the win should come easily. Going head to head, not so much...

Sacred 117

Weaknesses, no. Patterns, yes. Kratos approaches combat directly with overreliance on overwhelming force. This is why Cloud lost.

Cyner

Idk, Kratos by feats is much stronger and possibly more durable than oot Link.

NotAllThatEvil

That's why I wanted to add MM. That particular link can multiply his speed upwards of 4 as well as their combined defense amps giving him 75% resistance to kratos' attacks.

Sacred 117

Well... Kratos is evil, which historically gives him a handful of advantages instantly.

NotAllThatEvil

My kratos lore is a little rusty, his he cursed?

Demonic Phoenix

No, just an evil dude in general for most of his life.

NotAllThatEvil

There wasn't something about the ashes of dead people or something?

Sacred 117

He was tricked into murdering his own family, and their ashes were bound to him so he could live with his sin for the remainder of his life. I'm a little short on detail.

CosmicComet

Originally posted by Sacred 117
Weaknesses, no. Patterns, yes. Kratos approaches combat directly with overreliance on overwhelming force. This is why Cloud lost.

It's easy to say 'patterns' in some vague, non-specific way and expect that to be self evident, but what does 'patterns' even mean in a cross-universe fiction fight? It's all fake. There's no real way to quantify 'skill' or tendencies in fiction. It's just all arbitrary bullshit. -

All of these characters have human anatomies, everyone knows there are very few ways in which a human body can punch, kick, throw, duck or weave, or do any sort of movement. It's less about patterns and more about who's simply more readily able to capitalize, and 9/10, the faster guy is that one that will be able to capitalize.

Cloud didn't lose for this oversimplified reasoning. Cloud lost because for some reason, Death Battle went with the reasoning that Link and Cloud are on equal terms as far as speed and reaction time goes. They aren't. Cloud is much faster and swifter, and thus should have beaten Link.

I will say this though on fighting styles, in the case of Kratos and Link--Link's fighting style (sword and shield) is extremely common for Kratos, whereas Kratos' fighting style (I call it helicopter-jitsu) does not exist in the Zelda universe at all--

Cyner

God of War wiki exists. You should check it out.

NotAllThatEvil

Umm link is hylian and fox is an anthropomorphic vulpine...

I thought FFVII was turn based? How can you qualify reaction time?

CosmicComet

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Umm link is hylian and fox is an anthropomorphic vulpine...

I thought FFVII was turn based? How can you qualify reaction time?

Lol what? You can't be that dense. This is extremely simple. Link has a human anatomy. What his fictional race is called in his universe absolutely irrelevant. Same for Fox, except he has an animal head so above the neck, he's a little different in that respect.

Everything else, as far as how their joints, bones, and general movement is designed, is 1 to 1 with human movement. That's how their character's skeletal structure was modeled. That is to say, Link can't do a random, awkwardly angled punch that would disjoint a human arm because he is built the same way as a human is anatomically.

Yes. FF7 is turn based. What of it? Have you ever debated in a games thread before? Do you know what gameplay mechanics are? Or do you believe fights in FF7 happen with guys standing in a row , generously waiting their turns to strike and on-screen statistics play out the winner?

You qualify reaction time by feats. Easy right? Let me know if you want to know anything else.

NotAllThatEvil

Well actually, hylian's have upwards of three hearts in their circulatory system, hollow bones, and a much more flexible spinal cord... but I see your point.

Even so, cloud never did anything too fast.

CosmicComet

Where was that stated? In Hyrule Historia? Regardless, what I said remains unchanged, as I was talking about their skeletal structure and range of movement. In which Link is the same as any other human. Though obviously more athletic in that regard, though he can't just ignore his joints. Same with Cloud, Dante, Superman, etc.

Cloud bullet timed. Link has no quantifiable speed feats on par with that.

Demonic Phoenix

Originally posted by Sacred 117
Weaknesses, no. Patterns, yes. Kratos approaches combat directly with overreliance on overwhelming force. This is why Cloud lost.

* Brute force with some precision applied. Despite his looks, he's no oaf.

Fodder are just ripped apart.
Higher level foes and such are systematically weakened first (eg. breaking Euryale's arm first, or dismembering Satyrs) and then killed. At least, that's how it was prior to 3, where he more or less ripped nearly everything apart with extreme prejudice, or stabbed with the Blade of Olympus.

NotAllThatEvil

Well there is that age old lightning timing argument, that I won't go into. He has batted arrows aside and MM is faster than a race horse.

CosmicComet

The lightning thing has been done ad-nauseum, hell i was one of the original supporters of that, but I cannot support it anymore. At this point, we'd need a confirmation from Aonuma himself to make it legit. At what range did he bat the arrows though? And how many?

Not sure how faster than a race horse helps.

NotAllThatEvil

In TP he cuts bulbin arrows, some at pretty close range.

I know combat speed=/= travel speed, but the kid's a lot quicker than most people give him credit for. He frequently deals with teleporters and distractions.

CosmicComet

I'm not talking about combat speed vs travel.

It's just that running faster than a horse does not say much at all about reaction time.

Cheetahs run faster than horses too. And they don't have a perception speed advantage. If the cheetah was faster physically and faster mentally by the same percentage, then that would be a significant increase over the horse. As it is though, 1 second for a cheetah is still 1 second for a horse.

If Link could run as fast as sound or something and not run into anything, then that would be a worthy combat usable speed feat. Seeing as he would have to see time quicker in order to not run into anything.

StealthRanger

Originally posted by CosmicComet
The lightning thing has been done ad-nauseum, hell i was one of the original supporters of that, but I cannot support it anymore. At this point, we'd need a confirmation from Aonuma himself to make it legit. At what range did he bat the arrows though? And how many?

Not sure how faster than a race horse helps.

I thought one of them devs confirmed that he is?

Demonic Phoenix

Talking about Link, not Kratos. Then again, maybe one of the LoZ devs confirmed it.

StealthRanger

Oh, because I thought CC went against Kratos being a lightning timer at one point. My bad

Demonic Phoenix

I'd have banned him from the Kratos fan club if that were the case. uhuh

CosmicComet

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Oh, because I thought CC went against Kratos being a lightning timer at one point. My bad

I'm talking about Link here, who is not yet a confirmed Lightning timer.

Kratos now is. I did go against it at one point though, you're right.

And if Kratos didn't have the speed feat in Ascension of moving through a significant time dilation under his own power, I probably still would be. You can't have a reaction time far greater than your running speed, it makes no logical sense. But moving through a time dilation is a great practical speed feat that puts Kratos beyond the typical peak human area of speed that most clumped him in. The feat of falling debris looking like its falling in great slow mo relative to him also helped out.

Sacred 117

Originally posted by CosmicComet
You can't have a reaction time far greater than your running speed, it makes no logical sense.

It's been a while since I looked at it, but the last time I checked, average human stats are as follows. Running Speed (average of short + long distance): approx. 10 mph. Striking Speed: approx. 15 mph. Reaction Time: approx. 1/8 seconds. Adjust this for video game characters, and the gap between them grows. For example, Master Chief's running speed is about 50 mph. Proportionally, that already puts his striking speed at around 75 mph. I'm guessing that would also put his reaction time at 1/48 seconds, but even I doubt that. Hopefully, you get what I'm trying to say. I simply wished to point this out. Furthermore, your statements about Kratos being a "confirmed lightning timer" coupled with this seeming "running speed = reaction speed" logic doesn't exactly add up to me. I'm not questioning his feat because I haven't actually played Ascension yet, but based on what your saying, shouldn't Kratos also run at perpetual hypersonic speeds (or however fast his feat suggests he is)?

ScreamPaste

Lol'd. Cloud cannot compete. Bonking Bahamut and some bullet timing doesn't cut it there. Deathbattle is wrong often enough, that time they were not.

Sacred 117

CosmicComet

Originally posted by Sacred 117
It's been a while since I looked at it, but the last time I checked, average human stats are as follows. Running Speed (average of short + long distance): approx. 10 mph. Striking Speed: approx. 15 mph. Reaction Time: approx. 1/8 seconds. Adjust this for video game characters, and the gap between them grows. For example, Master Chief's running speed is about 50 mph. Proportionally, that already puts his striking speed at around 75 mph. I'm guessing that would also put his reaction time at 1/48 seconds, but even I doubt that. Hopefully, you get what I'm trying to say. I simply wished to point this out. Furthermore, your statements about Kratos being a "confirmed lightning timer" coupled with this seeming "running speed = reaction speed" logic doesn't exactly add up to me. I'm not questioning his feat because I haven't actually played Ascension yet, but based on what your saying, shouldn't Kratos also run at perpetual hypersonic speeds (or however fast his feat suggests he is)?

No, I don't get what you're trying to say because those figures are exactly what I'm talking about here. It illustrates my exact point. Most people can't seem to make sense of this thing though, I've had to talk about it ad-nauseum, I'll try to explain it again here.

No, the gap does not grow. The proportion presumably stays the same. I'll explain.

Movement speed and 'reaction' speed are irreversibly tied. If your perception speed is too slow for you, then your movement speed is too fast for your perception speed. If your perception speed is too fast for you, then your movement speed is going to be too slow to you. The latter is to the type of situation you get when idiots try to create character types that supposedly can 'react' at something ridiculous (like say lightspeed), yet can only run at 'peak human' speed.

Let's illustrate the ridiculousness of that notion. A 'reflex' speed of thousands upon thousands of times greater than your running speed. You know what kind of stupid situation that implies? For one, its like saying something as dumb as; "My muscles move much faster than my muscles."

In the time it takes you to throw a punch, which is like, 1/5 of a second, in that same time frame you can take a step forward with your feet. As many punches as I can throw in a second, I can also take small steps forward with my feet in comparable frequency.

On the other hand, to a character that has a 'reflex' speed of lightspeed, what the hell is keeping them from running at comparable speeds? If their running speed is only peak human, then obviously that has to mean that their running speed is so slow to them as to feel like their legs can't even move. Basically, their legs should feel like they are absolutely useless to them in a fight because they apparently move their arms at thousands of times the speed of their legs and see time fast enough to control their speed in order to even have said lightspeed reflexes. So basically their 'peak human' running speed should feel like they are taking months or something to even visibly move. In such a situation, you have one of two options, you have to call bullshit on their 'reflex' speed being thousands of times faster than their running speed, or you have to call bullshit on their running speed being thousands of times slower than their 'reflex' speed.

Again, what is keeping these people with massive reflexes from running near as fast as they can react? Logically, nothing, because there is no character out there that adheres to the logic that their legs are so slow relative to their reflexes that they can't even see them move a centimeter in a fight, (which would thus mean they are forced to fight like their legs are turned to stone but their upper body is fine.)

Let's take characters like Thanos and Thor, often repeated to be those that can react far faster than they run. Their running speeds are absolutely pathetic in comparison to how fast fans tend to boast their 'reflex' speeds being. But, for those characters, are their legs like statues to them? No. Are their legs useless to them in a fight? No. Have they been shown to move their entire body in situations where they supposedly react at these great speeds? Yes. So they are just like anyone else, their limbs move in proportion to each other as far as speed goes.

If Thanos throws 'lightspeed' punch, and takes a step forward at the same time, and if he can keep taking those steps forward, then he is ALREADY moving at near lightspeed. What keeps him from continuing to take those steps forward in the same time frame as he throws a punch? Theoretically nothing, seeing as his arm and leg speed are not portrayed as being out of proportion. But in all of his portrayals you will never see him being referred to as a fast person. Spiderman would outrun him. You can't have fast reactions without actually being fast. Reaction speed is partly how fast you think and how fast your muscles move. You can't have it without both. When say Flash is running (or even walking) at his normal full capacity from say California to New York, it will take him what? Far less than a second. Let's just say a microsecond. But to Flash, since his reaction time is proportional to his movement speed (just like any normal character), that 1 microsecond is going to feel like months to him.

So in the case of someone like Thanos and Thor, you have to call bullshit on those supposed extrapolations of lightspeed reactions as outliers, and realize that their actual honest to goodness speed is much slower (though still fast), because they do not see their legs as statues in comparison to their reaction time.

It's even worse because what I'm saying here is just an overly simplified version by making it seem like reactions to a stimulus can only happen with the upper body. Obviously it does not. Let's make the idea even more apparently stupid. Let's say someone reacts to a lightspeed arrow from a few feet away by kicking it out of the way, ok, so we still say that their reaction speed is at at that level, even if they used their legs right? Of course we do. But now, are we suddenly able to say that this same person that reacted to a lightspeed attack with their legs can't run faster than peak human speed too? Do you see how stupid an idea that becomes when you think about it? It's absolutely absurd. If they can move their leg in a few nanoseconds to throw a kick, OF COURSE, they can do something far more simple than that by taking a step forward in those same few nanoseconds. And by doing that, they are already moving at or near lightspeed (light moves 1 foot during a nanosecond by the way). In such a situation, the "My muscles move much faster than muscles" statement becomes an even more hilarious one to ponder, because well, you're using the exact same muscle groups lol; the ones in your legs.

As for Kratos, absolutely. I did not mince my words. Kratos has a legit speedster type of speed feat. Moving his body under a heavy time dilation. The implication is obvious for his actual movement speed, and its as I said, something that immediately moves him out of that 'peak human' tier that he got clumped in. This only poses a problem for those that look for a particular visual cue as far as speedster goes, e.g., the audience seeing the character move in a blur or what have you. But that's not required. As I explained with the Flash, the implication is simple; True Super Speed isn't seeing yourself as fast, but seeing everything else as slow.

The Flash sees his speed as entirely normal. Just as I see my speed as normal. It would take me what feels like months to cross the length of America if I could do it non-stop with no breaks, and it would take him what feels like months as well. (the obvious difference is that a month to him is not even an a quarter of a second to me).

As for Kratos? He already falls under that. He doesn't see himself as fast. His perception speed (when its actually made use of) was shown to see other things as slowed down. Such as the other feat in Ascension where falling debris looked to be falling in heavy slow mo to him, while he seemed to be moving at normal speed.

There's also no need to put quotes around the confirmed lightning timer bit. If you weren't aware, it wasn't just fan extrapolation, a developer confirmed that he can lightning time. Developers also confirmed the time dilation feat.

CosmicComet

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Lol'd. Cloud cannot compete. Bonking Bahamut and some bullet timing doesn't cut it there. Deathbattle is wrong often enough, that time they were not.

Link does not have a single speed feat to suggest that he can bullet time.

He reacted to thrown orb electrical orbs from Ganon. Orbs that cannot be assumed to be lightning speed because they are, well, orbs of electricity and not lightning, and they were propelled by his muscles throwing them, not just simple zapping. The closest thing to that is the
artwork of LTTP showing him blocking lightning with his sword, but that lightning bolt appeared to be made up of hot wax or something, and not to mention we don't know when Link put up his sword; just before the lightning strike reached him, or after it reached him, (e.g. he got struck but pushed it back with his sword so he didn't have to bear the brunt of it anymore).

NemeBro

Link with the full Triforce wins.

Take it away and Kratos solos the field, as well as his own team member.

COG Veteran

So what form of Link are we talking about? Composite instantly spites this thread.

NemeBro

Originally posted by CosmicComet
I'm talking about Link here, who is not yet a confirmed Lightning timer.

Kratos now is. I did go against it at one point though, you're right.

And if Kratos didn't have the speed feat in Ascension of moving through a significant time dilation under his own power, I probably still would be. You can't have a reaction time far greater than your running speed, it makes no logical sense. But moving through a time dilation is a great practical speed feat that puts Kratos beyond the typical peak human area of speed that most clumped him in. The feat of falling debris looking like its falling in great slow mo relative to him also helped out. You're dumb.

CosmicComet

Originally posted by NemeBro
Link with the full Triforce wins.

Take it away and Kratos solos the field, as well as his own team member.

Curious, I know you're a Jak fan but have you ever played Jak X Combat Racing and his final, proper game, Jak & Daxter: The Lost Frontier?

The latter came out in 2009, well into the PS3's life span, but it was for the PS2 and PSP. I did not know about it till recently.

Going to have to get it off of E-Bay so I can see what feats for Jak I may have missed.

CosmicComet

Originally posted by NemeBro
You're dumb.

Suck mah dick. And nope, I'm right, but you know that.

NotAllThatEvil

I think we're talking about OoT/MM/Hero's shade.

As for link's "reaction speed", he actually constantly perceives the world as going half as fast as we do. Didn't he catch honest to goodness lightning in SS?

NemeBro

In fiction, you can, in fact, have reflexes vastly outstripping your movement speed. Like Karate Kid, for example.

The opposite is rarely true and needs more evidence to successfully prove.

And no, not played Jak X or TLF, but I've never been given reason to doubt that Kratos could solo the entire setting.

COG Veteran

So you think Kratos is a bullet timer? Not to sure on him soloing team Microsoft.

CosmicComet

You can't. Not by fan extrapolations. Such a thing would have to be specified directly by the writer in plain English. And even still, it would be dumb as hell, and a term such as PIS exists for such a reason.

Karate Kid is among the most PIS-ful of all.

About the only situation where I give it a pass is at the bullet timing level, simply because its far too common a trope to ignore. Cloud for example is still slow enough to need a motorcycle, for some reason.

CosmicComet

Originally posted by COG Veteran
So you think Kratos is a bullet timer? Not to sure on him soloing team Microsoft.

Kratos is far above bullet timing.

Team Microsoft is weak. Neither MC or Fenix have a means of hurting him, and they are far slower and less durable than him.

NemeBro

Originally posted by CosmicComet
You can't. Not by fan extrapolations. Such a thing would have to be specified directly by the writer. And even still, its dumb as hell, and a term such as PIS exists for such a reason.

Karate Kid is among the most PIS-ful of all. Your belligerent bleating bothers me.

You once said that at a certain point, a character's showings can't be PIS if they are consistent. You said this in reference to Captain America.

Keep consistent cur, lest I lavish you in boiling beer brewed for butchery.

COG Veteran

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Kratos is far above bullet timing.

Team Microsoft is weak. Neither MC or Fenix have a means of hurting him, and they are far slower and less durable than him.

Ok, just checking. Not to familiar with the badassness of K. But what are his bullet timing feats?

CosmicComet

Originally posted by NemeBro
Your belligerent bleating bothers me.

You once said that at a certain point, a character's showings can't be PIS if they are consistent. You said this in reference to Captain America.

Keep consistent cur, lest I lavish you in boiling beer brewed for butchery.

I know what thread you're talking about, I'm a Captain America mark and am not to be taken seriously in his threads most of the time.

Cap also consistently hurts the Hulk every time he punches him.

NemeBro

Deftly deflecting deadly bolts of luminescent lightning lobbed by the great gregarious god of lightning himself.

NemeBro

Originally posted by CosmicComet
I know what thread you're talking about, I'm a Captain America mark and am not to be taken seriously in his threads most of the time.

Cap also consistently hurts the Hulk every time he punches him. Yet the man-made ideal fails against the man with the backbone of impregnable alloys and is an urban avenger at heart and in portrayal.

The man of a billion and one martial styles is not.

StealthRanger

Bullet timing is trivial to Kratos given his reaction feats (reacting to lightning and Poseidon, which is at least hypersonic+ or something)

Even if he wasn't bullets can't harm Kratos. Not at all

Microsoft team is a non factor. Lacks strength, speed, durability, destructive capacity and hax to be of any significance

COG Veteran

I love you Marcus, Ill miss you when your gone. So has a consensus been reached on who is faster, Link or Kratos?

StealthRanger

Kratos. Significantly

CosmicComet

BL0yGwYAots

Originally posted by NemeBro
Yet the man-made ideal fails against the man with the backbone of impregnable alloys and is an urban avenger at heart and in portrayal.

The man of a billion and one martial styles is not.

Not sure what you're trying to get at, but if you're talking about consistency, you can't ask for any more consistency than what I've displayed.

Afterall, after I came to this conclusion of reaction/movement relation, I did in fact apply the same logic to Kratos as well of all people, and at one point denied the lightning timing argument relating to him, in no uncertain terms.

And I certainly can't think of a more avid fanboy of Kratos than myself.

COG Veteran

Originally posted by CosmicComet
BL0yGwYAots

Much appreciated.

CosmicComet

Originally posted by COG Veteran
I love you Marcus, Ill miss you when your gone. So has a consensus been reached on who is faster, Link or Kratos?

Kratos, but I'd love for Link to get legit speed feats that compare or exceed.

He is the probably the most prolific hero in gaming.

NemeBro

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Not sure what you're trying to get at, but if you're talking about consistency, you can't ask for any more consistency than what I've displayed.

Afterall, after I came to this conclusion of reaction/movement relation, I did in fact apply the same logic to Kratos as well of all people, and at one point denied the lightning timing argument relating to him, in no uncertain terms.

And I certainly can't think of a more avid fanboy of Kratos than myself. I witness the logic-mad demon missing the tip of my sword of truth thrusting into his foul, black heart. You might endeavor towards tending to this grievous wound.

CosmicComet

Speaking of which, The Sword of Truth books by Terry Goodkind is a very good fantasy series.

NemeBro

You like dog dick.

CosmicComet

Originally posted by NemeBro
You like dog dick.

http://images.killermovies.com/forums/custom_avatars/avatar93844_12.gif

NemeBro

http://images.killermovies.com/forums/custom_avatars/avatar93844_12.gif

StealthRanger

And then Magnus the Red walked into this thread......

ScreamPaste

Herp. Any Link who can match Ganondorf's combat speed is capable of this based on the arrows alone, let alone the lightning.

Not in fiction.

CosmicComet

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
I think we're talking about OoT/MM/Hero's shade.

As for link's "reaction speed", he actually constantly perceives the world as going half as fast as we do. Didn't he catch honest to goodness lightning in SS?

Hey there, sorry if I came across as hostile in an earlier post.

I actually confused your for another poster who doesn't have an avatar. Lol.

But, when was it shown Link perceives the world half as fast? That would be interesting, not mindblowing but interesting. And he didn't catch lightning, but rather used his sword as an lightning rod by holding it up during a storm.

CosmicComet

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Herp. Any Link who can match Ganondorf's combat speed is capable of this based on the arrows alone, let alone the lightning.

And what is Ganondorf's combat speed supposed to be? You talk about the arrows that he can block constantly if you try to use them, but how provably fast are these arrows?

Sure it is. No one in fiction has a perception speed skewed so high as to leave their own walking/running/sprinting speed as feeling like a statue speed in comparison. That means for the most part, any fan extrapolated high end reaction feat that they have of far outstripping their ability to run is PIS, since their running speed will be the more common feat.

Though its less so arguable if the author in question explicitly states 'X reaction speed' and 'Y running speed'.

Although, to be fair, sometimes running speed can be shown as mundane in speed simply because its shown through the perception level of a super speed runner in the first place. (e.g. how it was shown in smallville). So if there are no visual cues to tell us one way or another (e.g. no falling leaves and such in the background to gauge time frames), then maybe its still arguable that someone like Ganon is running at super speed anyway when he appears to be moving at a mundane speed to us the viewer.

For the most part, this "Reaction =/= Movement" brigade comes from those who can't have the super speed cake but still want a slice of the super speed cake. E.G. Thor not being remotely fast as Superman, (like, not even 1%) yet his fans will still try to argue the 'reaction' speed thing to make it as though he can keep up with Superman with no problem in a fight. Which is retarded because unless Thor can only move at lightspeed in quick bursts (and then require a cool down time long enough to bring his average speed down significantly), he IS moving at lightspeed if he can constantly move his body around in a comparable time frame to what Superman is doing.

NotAllThatEvil

In MM, his music allows him to slow down time. If you count the mangas as canon (I don't) it says that he is the fastest fighter in hyrule and their single most accomplished swordsman.

ScreamPaste

Consistently Hypersonic across all 3d home console games yet released.

Karate Kid, Cassandra Cain, most Jedi, The Hulk, Spider-Man when he's on foot, Wolverine, etc.

OBD calced Ganon killing the water sage at over mach 2, this was at the weakest we've ever seen him while still possessing the ToP, it was literally done seconds after gaining it.

CosmicComet

Repeating myself after a late edit:

"For the most part, this "Reaction =/= Movement" brigade comes from those who can't have the super speed cake but still want a slice of the super speed cake. E.G. Thor not being remotely fast as Superman, (like, not even 1%) yet his fans will still try to argue the 'reaction' speed thing to make it as though he can keep up with Superman with no problem in a fight. Which is retarded because unless Thor can only move at lightspeed in quick bursts (and then require a cool down time long enough to bring his average speed down significantly), he IS moving at lightspeed if he can constantly move his body around in a comparable time frame to what Superman is doing."

And none of the people you bring up fit the bill of what I'm saying. They don't have a reaction speed that makes their running speed look like its non-existant.

ScreamPaste

Thor's shown the ability to fight at those speeds as recently as GoT 9.

All of those people have shown reaction times and combat speed that embarrass their actual running speed. Especially Logan and Pete.

CosmicComet

Scans. I don't want bullshit flight from point A to point B stuff either. That doesn't count, as even characters with no super speed at all can and have done that.

This 'combat' only extrapolation of higher speed feats is why its so laughable. As its simply catering to the idea of PIS that they only seem to move at whatever high end speeds that they are not capable of actually acheiving otherwise, when the plot calls for it so that they can survive. You need explicit, and practical speed feats. Explicit, as in time frames given for the characters in question. For Thor's case, his most explicit physical speed feat is when he was stated to throw a haymaker in a microsecond. This is good. Not remotely lightspeed good, but good. As far as practical speeds go, Thor once built a simple tower in like a minute, by hand. A good speed feat. Not even remotely lightspeed good, let alone massively faster than light (like Superman rebuilding an entire New York sized city in Metropolis in seconds), but good. If Thor can't match Superman's speeds of sitting in a diner with Barry Allen and seeing the world in a frozen state of attoseconds, Or rebuild a city with his barehands in seconds, it means he utterly gets the shit beat out of him in a fight because the speed difference is that great.

None of those people see their running speed as moving in slow motion to themselves. They don't see their legs as statues.

And Wolverine has actual speedster like running feats too.

ScreamPaste

Thor(s) and Gorr fight across distances of light years, consistently intercepting each other's massively FTL flight and beating on each other at those speeds. The scans should be in Thor v.s. SSJ2 Goku in All Versus.

Don't particularly buy your rationalization of why it's wrong, because if you get to do that, I get to point out that moving at light speed is impossible. Fiction doesn't care about what makes sense, all that matters is what we're shown and told.

Logan has 'speedster like' running feats? Sure, he'd rock ass at the olympics, but he's not outrunning any bullets. Dodging them though? Yes. Blitzing people who bullet time? Yes. (And I hate it when he does that.) The speed he can actually travel at outside of combat is garbage compared to his shown combat and reaction speeds. The same for Spider-Man if he's on foot. Webs > Running places. Yet a bullet is fired at him and he can still get out of the way if he starts reacting after it is fired. He's the king of the low tier speed blitz, but his top running speed is nowhere near the speed he moves during a fight.

CosmicComet

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Thor(s) and Gorr fight across distances of light years, consistently intercepting each other's massively FTL flight and beating on each other at those speeds. The scans should be in Thor v.s. SSJ2 Goku in All Versus.

Saw it. Not remotely what you said.

Gorr was blasted lightyears away to some moon by old Thor. The blast was from only maybe 50 feet away. The blast was fast enough to take him lightyears away, as said before.

Did Gorr react to the blast? No. He failed to react to the blast.

Then newb Thor and old Thor flew through space FTL to reach the moon that he landed on. This is point A to point B flying, and is a completely dismissable speed feat as a trope, as EVERYONE who can fly in space has done this. John Stewart in JLU flew FTL through space. Even scrub GLs could do that. They were not even remotely as fast was Wally who's barely lightspeed at his absolute best on the ground. Agreggor in Ben 10 flew to another Galaxy in less than a day, and he was just a typical brick on land.

Later, the middle Thor knocked Gorr through a wormhole and followed through.

Of course, your mileage may vary as to how you take to certain points in a versus thread. You could easily just say, none of it counts at all because its fiction and thus bullshit by default, but then there's no debate.

Characters have been flying at lightspeed and beyond for decades.
The oldest I know of first hand is Captain Marvel doing that back in the 40s, pretty much just a few years removed of Superman's debut. So basically since the start of American superhero comics.

The grander the issue, the more leeway and handwaving it is afforded (e.g. exceeding lightspeed, pulling a planet etc.), as it would get far too much in the way of showing cool stuff.

What I'm talking about is far, far more simple;

NO character out there has a reaction speed that makes their leg speed looks like its non-existent. None of them.

When Wolverine fights someone at or around his speed level, like Spiderman, do they stand there and fight like Rock Em Sock Em Robots? No. Obviously not. They move their entire body. Why? Because obviously, their legs and and arms move in proportion to each other.

If Spiderman can use his legs to do a backflip against an incoming bullet, then what keeps him from taking simple steps in the same time frame?

If he can do a backflip in like 100 microseconds (ballpark guessing number) or what have you, he can take a couple of steps forward in that same 100 microseconds, and if he can keep on doing that, then he's already moving at superspeed to match his reaction speed.

WHAT keeps him from doing just that? Simple. PIS. You either have to call PIS on his reflex speed being so far above what he can run at, or call PIS on his running speed being so slow. You cannot have the two exist at the same time without acknowleding the obvious implication that their legs are thousands of times slower than their arms and thus should seem absolutely useless to them in a fight with reflex tier peers. Spiderman can't throw thousands of punches and for ever one footstep he takes.

Since we're talking about what is 'shown and told' in comics, for one thing, you have to realize that what you're shown does not always mean what you extrapolate it to mean. You can extrapolate flying through space as a speed feat (since your reflexes logically would have to be great to navigate and not overshoot your target), but that does not mean what you're simply shown means what you extrapolate it to mean. Such a scene for Thor would imply that he could outrun Quicksilver in a race, but what writer is going to admit to that being his intention when pressed on the implication of what his scene showed? It only works if you're shown, and then explicitly told details about what is happening.

Obviously, that's how we even got to the nigh universal hand-waving of lazer dodging in comics being a useless trope feat. It only becomes non-handwaveable when we are explicitly told, "Character A dodged a lazer that was moving at X speed".

If you try to deny lightspeed+, which is a much grander and more complex issue, then you have to agree to my far more simple and intuitive point of Reflexes and Reactions being tied. And what's worse, even 'in comics', they are acknowledged as tied. As I already told you, the Flash's reaction level is on par with his speed. He does not see himself as fast, he sees himself as normal. Its everything else that's slow. The same for Quicksilver, as Mark Waid will tell you.

This is the problem with typical non-speedster class characters like Spiderman and Wolverine who are still regarded as fast. Their shown reflex speeds are not consistent with what you could extrapolate.

Spiderman may bullet time in one scene, but in another, he'll be speed blitzed by Speed Demon who is stated to be punching him like 1000 times a second. If his reaction level is so great, why is he suddenly having so much trouble against a speed level that should be within his reach by feats? Then you have situations with more concrete numbers for Spiderman like his reflexes being stated to be 40 times greater than any human's (while he's moving his entire body around the entire time, jumping, ducking, somersaulting etc.), and thus should easily be able to simply run comparably fast to what he's doing there. Fan extrapolated reaction levels are just not reliable overall. Hence, the PIS argument being usable.

Wolverine runs fast enough to be invisible to peak humans.

With that being said, even with fan extrapolated reaction levels not being reliable at all, and their running speed being a far more consistent and usable metric, the level that Wolverine and Spiderman typically top out at is around the bullet timing level, and while they are not to my knowledge shown to be capable of running that fast (it wouldn't surprise me if they did it once or twice though, as Captain America had raced a bullet to its target before) this level of reaction vs speed is far too common a trope for me to ignore.

It's passable. The Wolverines, Clouds, and Spidermen of the world are ok with me. It's not that atrocious at these levels. Afterall, speed of sound is what, 730 mph roughly right? Truthfully that's only 27 times faster than the fastest human sprinter.

However, the low-meta running speed + lightspeed reaction LolCoupling that is afforded to the likes of Thor and Thanos are utterly laughable, dismissable, downright stupid, and unsupported. Neither of them are outright stated to be reacting in on the level nanoseconds by the narration, and neither of them have practical speed feats that would suggest that they have that level of speed either. Thus for them entirely, any fan extrapolations of their immensely greater reflexes are PIS.

If Thor could move his entire body around to react to someone like Superman in a nanosecond, then he can take simple steps forward in a nanosecond. Meaning he could be said to walk at lightspeed. We all know he can't remotely do that, nor will he ever.

ScreamPaste

|You're looking at the wrong page.

After Gorr is blasted light years away Thor co. pursue him, as they're moving massively FTL he starts throwing chunks of moon at them, aimed to intercept their flight. They take note and start smashing them. Later While again travelling between worlds Gorr intercepts Thor mid flight and they begin duking it out. I have the entire comic on hand if you want it.

This is not simply A to B flight.

That's why I can name several off the top of my head?

Reflex speed has never been representative of travel speed in fiction. It likely never will be. Spider-Man's combat showings are enough to have him running well over 200-300 MPH but you will not see it happen. It's a simple fact of fiction that some characters can kick faster than they can take steps. Why? Rule of Cool, I guess. The reason no one fights like Rock Em Sock Em Robots is because this is supposed to be awesome, and that would look ****ing stupid. haermm

No, you cannot make up rules for fiction that fiction itself does not adhere to. Superman has never even walked at that speed as you describe, for the record.

ares834

And then you have times where Thor admits he can't keep up with Wolverine. Thor can not fight at FTL speeds except for a few examples all of which are very arguable.

NotAllThatEvil

Is kratos fighting thor now?

ScreamPaste

And then you have times when Spider-Man beats up Firelord. Stupid things happen in comic books. Thor jobbing is one of them. At least writers occasionally try to remind us he holds back when he's with the Avengers so he doesn't make the rest of them look like ass.

NemeBro

CosmicComet's argument can easily be shut down by telling his fat, unsightly ass to post scans of Spiderman running several times faster than the speed of sound.

ares834

Scan for Thor blitzing Surtur?

Not to mention I haven't seen anything showing Surtur to be a very fast character.

The fact is Thor isn't a speedster and he has gotten blitzed by characters like Mongoose.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
And then you have times when Spider-Man beats up Firelord. Stupid things happen in comic books. Thor jobbing is one of them. At least writers occasionally try to remind us he holds back when he's with the Avengers so he doesn't make the rest of them look like ass.

This isn't a one time thing. Thor's speed or lack thereof has been commented on by others including Captain America and some fodder god. Now you're right, i would argue that Thor is faster than Wolverine (although not by a massive amount) but he sure as hell isn't a speedster.

Sacred 117

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Bullet timing is trivial to Kratos given his reaction feats (reacting to lightning and Poseidon, which is at least hypersonic+ or something)

Even if he wasn't bullets can't harm Kratos. Not at all

Microsoft team is a non factor. Lacks strength, speed, durability, destructive capacity and hax to be of any significance

Keep in mind Link can slow time and has caught lightning.

How so? I don't remember Kratos ever encountering future ballistics.

I wouldn't question Chief in terms of durability, nor Marcus in destructive capacity. Chief fell from atmosphere and got back up soon after as if it didn't even happen, and Marcus has access to the Hammer of Dawn, which is an entire system of WMDs capable of razing a planet. I wouldn't have put them here if I didn't see an initial chance for them. Arguments can be made.

StealthRanger

Lightning timing has been contested here several times, most people agree that he's not a lightning timer

Kratos has tanked and dodged far worse than bullets

Pretty sure he had an armor lock on and was KOed for quite some time, that and using a piece of starship armor to land or something like that. Even then, that's at best a large building+ level durability feat, Kratos has at least town+ level DC so, yeah. HoD, wouldn't that be outside help? Marcus is merely peak human with guns so yea, he's useless

ScreamPaste

Nintendo wouldn't comission art of something Link can't do.

CosmicComet

Back from work. Now.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
You're looking at the wrong page.

After Gorr is blasted light years away Thor co. pursue him, as they're moving massively FTL he starts throwing chunks of moon at them, aimed to intercept their flight. They take note and start smashing them. Later While again travelling between worlds Gorr intercepts Thor mid flight and they begin duking it out. I have the entire comic on hand if you want it.

This is not simply A to B flight.

I'm not reading anything wrong. I'm going by the pages you gave me.

Old Thor blasts Gorr. The blast sends him flying lightyears away.

He crash lands on a moon. They give chase and start flying. He starts throwing chunks of the moon at them. They fly through some of the first chunks and then comment that he's throwing moon chunks at them and find it amusing. There is no lightspeed+ feat anywhere other than flying. Gorr did not react to a ftl blast from Old Thor, nor did Old Thor and Newb Thor react to those thrown chunks while they were mid way through flying to their destination, Gorr succeeded in hitting them as they were coming in, its just that it didn't do anything to them.

There's nothing related to a lightspeed reflexes going on anywhere in those scans remotely. Even if it was a situation where Thor was chasing Gorr and both were flying FTL and they are hitting each other, even that would be a FTL reaction speed as they would both be going at the same speed through the comfort that is the great vastness of space, meaning they might as well be standing still trading blows and it would mean the same thing as far as reaction time goes.

Again, space flight speed even if logistically should point to heightened reflexes in certain situations, is just a shitty trope that even non-speedsters have shown the ability to do.

****ing Rogue from X-Men has a relativisitic flying feat, flying back to Earth from near the moon, she is not a speedster at all and her reflexes are nothing special.

You named a bunch of guys clumped in at the high street level of speed (bullet timing level), and none of them fit the bill of their own legs being shown to be slower than their bodies in combat situations. It's a speed tier in which the disparity is not all that great to begin with.

A .22 long rifle bullet moves at just under mach 1. Again, less than 30 times greater than the peak speed of an actual olympic athlete like Usain Bolt. That multiple will be even less when we talk about comic book peak humans, who both run and think faster, and at which speed differences things become much more feasible to avoid bullets via a combination of sufficient start distance, awareness of the would-be shooter, and subsequent aim dodging.

It has always been representative for as long as speedster class characters have existed. Seeing as they are the only ones to regularly have their reflex times to be explicitly stated in scenes.

Whereas everyone else just does something, usually with no explanation or detail put into the scene. It's just plot necessity. No writer is going to talk about Daredevil's super sonic arm speed from him blocking bullets with his billy club, because its just falls under, ironically as you would say; 'rule of cool' for the particular transitionary combat scene, and is not a serious display of his speed when the same writer may have him fail to use his supposedly super sonic arm speed to use in practical situations outside of combat in which that arm speed would be very helpful, e.g. untying someone/something with said supposed supersonic arms or maybe trying to crack a code as quickly as they can by trying out as many key combinations as possible.

As for Spiderman? He has showings OUTSIDE of combat that comfortably put his running speed at MACH speeds. The dude has run, jumped, and scaled across a couple of miles of cityscape in just a few seconds. That's a full body speed feat with just acrobatics alone.

But I digress, this was never about high street levelers anyway. As I said already, I give them a pass as they are not so blatantly abusive.

It's about far more laughable fan created disparities in reflex vs movement speed, like, again, that fans created for the likes of Thor and Thanos.

You yourself mentioned Spiderman vs. Firelord as a reason for comics doing stupid things when it comes to combat situations. But that goes EXACTLY the same for doing things far outside of your speed grade in combat situations.

Thus is the situation that fans extrapolate for Thor. He gets stated by fans (and no one else), for being able to react at lightspeed in situations such as reacting to vague projectiles, flying through space very fast (already shown to not remotely be reliable as FTL flyers throughout several mediums do this without being speedsters to show for it), and fighting true speedsters (like Gladiator).

When he's reacting to these random projectiles, in no situation will they be explicitly stated to be faster than light, with Thor requiring to move his arms in X time frame in order to intercept them. And in combat situations like with Gladiator, nowhere will it be shown or stated that Gladiator is moving at 'X nanoseconds' for a particular maneuver that requires Thor to counter in a similar time frame. They simply fight.

In the case of Gladiator, one fight showed such a great speed disparity between the two that rendered any encounter between them where Gladiator doesn't just ko him in less than a second as PIS. Thor was once sped up by a time dilation (to the extent that 1 real life second felt like more than a couple of weeks have passed to him.) and fought Gladiator. Gladiator immediately noticed the time dilation amp that Thor was under and STILL matched Thor's overclocked speed with his own natural speed.

What does that tell you about Thor's native speed? He's nowhere near Gladiator's speed, and thus does not get credit for Gladiator's speed in their several fights. Its just that Gladiator jobs massively--hell forget Gladiator, Thor is nowhere near even someone much lower like Quicksilver, who laughed at the speed of his lightning, comparing it to bolts he has dodged since he was a teen. Thor is not faster than his own lightning, (at best he has a hyperbolic statement of being as fast as his lightning though.)

So what do we have here? When you look at it, Thor has no concrete lightspeed+ reflexes in his entire history. And combat situations alone are unreliable in comics, as stories must be told a particular way and thus concessions must be made, all for a pre-determined plot--as we already know with the example of Spiderman vs Firelord.

So what about Thor's explicitly stated speed feats and practical speed feats outside of combat? Those are the things that ironically become the true measure, as there is no concession needed to keep a fight competitive for purely entertainment purposes because its not a fight situation.

For those, Thor has moved fast enough to be 'almost' invisible to the naked eye when he hammered out a trench in what seemed like seconds. And Thor has also like I said earlier, built a simple tower from nothing with his bar ehands. Both are good, practical showings of his speed. Not even remotely faster than light though, and what's worse, they are also incredibly, incredibly old feats. Like Silver/Bronze age stuff that has not been repeated since. Going by the latter feat I mentioned one should concede that he should be faster than a Wolverine type, but then again those feats are so old as to be antiquated and arguably unreliable as well.

CosmicComet

Herp. Lol. The 'rule' here is the most simple logic ever that requires no thought or insight to state; You need to be at a certain level of speed to do things at a certain speed. It's that, retardedly basic. Afterall, you can't do things at a certain speed if you are much slower than a certain speed. It's fully self-explanatory, as speed is a simple mathematic equation that you can't will yourself to better yourself in while still not being any faster than what you are. smile

And we already create rules for fiction that deny things that the fiction itself may not adhere to. We created the term PIS, discount cross-overs even when they can be explicitly canon etc.

Except in the end, this isn't a rule that the comics don't adhere to. Comics know exactly what speed is and how it works. Comics may not always show it working a particular way, but that's not to say it doesn't work that way. Like you said, 'rule of cool', which doesn't mean its to be given a pass automatically, it can also be discarded entirely as well. It's always situational. Hence why writer's intent is also important, things can be shown a way and not mean at all what outside fan extrapolations come to the conclusion of (e.g. peak human lazer dodging needing to be faster than light to do so or again space flight speed needing superb speedster reflexes that can be in play anywhere).

Basically you're dancing around the issue that you have to admit to by accepting this idiotic massive reflex and running speed disparity. You have to acknowledge that you adhere to the retarded "my muscles move much faster than my muscles" statement. And unfortunately, you can't back that up with comics.

You can't show me a canon statement for Thor that acknowledges that his leg speed is immensely slower than his upper body speed, its just a concession you have to reach by accepting your own stance.

So apparently to you someone like a Thor type should be able to continously react to a Superman/Gladiator type in combat, despite having pathetic leg travelling speed, despite the fact that by doing full body reactions to such supposed lightspeed assaults by Supes/Glads he is already defying said established leg travelling speed.

What happens if Thor is not really fighting Superman and Gladiator but is just batting at illusions of them? Is he still fighting/moving at this supposed light speed level? Ergo to the outside eye that's fast enough it will just look like he's moving really fast and shadow fighting/exercising? What happens if Thor has to defuse bombs strapped to some children that are set to go off nanosecond after nanosecond in the same barren area that he would be fighting Supes or Glads? Will he have the speed to run up and defuse eahc of them? (lets say all it takes to defuse them is for him to get in close proximity). Afterall, he won't be asked to move any greater a distance than he would vs Superman or Gladiator, nor would be asked to move at any quicker a time frame, as we're still talking nanoseconds. Surely he can then defuse these bombs, right? Or what if some crazed mad man like the Leader captures Jane Foster and is about to experiment on her by injecting her with some compound. Said needle is about to break her skin in a few nanoseconds, and Thor is only 50 feet away. Surely he will be able to cover that distance in time right? Or what if he's tasked to put together some machinery with his barehands in a few nanoseconds or if he fails a city explodes? He'll be able to do it, right?

See where I'm going with this? Why is this only shown in combat situations? There is nothing magical about combat situations that causes time to pass at a different rate than it does outside of it, yet Thor has no relatively speedster level impressive speed feats in situations that would call for his supposedly superluminal reflexes. There's no concession to be made for a fight, and thus it counts extra. Lazers job in combat. Speedsters job in combat. Even bullets job (though its too large and engrained a trope to be able to fully ignore. its case by case.). Doesn't necessarily mean the other guy was up to task, it was just required for the plot. PIS is very real and very common afterall, again.

And lol. You don't know Superman apparently. Yes. Superman has feats like that --for the record--.

Superman has walked, talked and gestured casually in what was stated to be a mere fraction of a nanosecond, and that same fraction of a nanosecond seemed to feel like an entire minute or more would feel to us. Hell screw that, Superman has casually sped up through a complete time stop. Both of those are post-crisis feats too.

Originally posted by NemeBro
And then you have times where Thor speedblitzes Skyfathers like Surter.

Shut the **** up. thumb up

CosmicComet's argument can easily be shut down by telling his fat, unsightly ass to post scans of Spiderman running several times faster than the speed of sound.

'Blitzing' Surter means nothing impressive. Surter is not considered fast at all. He can fly FTL, but so can many characters who do not have speedster level reflexes. As established already, flying fast through space is completely dismissable and unreliable as a showing for heightened reflexes that are applicable for practical situations.

Also, what would that shut down for me? The argument was never for the high street level tier, as I said I already allow bullet timing reflexes & peak human+ running speed as its far too common a trope to ignore. It's not as atrocious a gap, and secondly I'm not arguing that the reflex feats bounds the running speed, I'm arguing the OPPOSITE. Meaning the running speed--which is a far more commonly displayed level, bounds what the upper levels of the reflex speed would be. And other than that, Spiderman has physical travel speeds that can be shown to be sonic+, I gave one such example above. Hell even Captain America himself has outraced a bullet to its target in at least one feat.

Go have a seat you mangy, dog dick sucking Floridian.

ScreamPaste

Except that, no, I don't need to do any such thing. All I have to do here is point out that fiction doesn't care.

There is no amount of rationalization that will fix this, it is broken and it is stupid, but it is what we are shown and told.

CosmicComet

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Except that, no, I don't need to do any such thing. All I have to do here is point out that fiction doesn't care.

There is no amount of rationalization that will fix this, it is broken and it is stupid, but it is what we are shown and told.

You realize it is broken, and still champion it and won't answer the rest of my post asking for how things would go in situations that require the exact same time frames and distances outside of combat situations.

PIS is PIS.

No character has reflexes millions of times greater than their running speed, unless it gets explicitly stated by the author in question. Even then, its still incredibly stupid and you'd have to ponder their intelligence. But any other situation is pure fan extrapolated BS wanking, a sad attempt at trying to steal a slice of the super speed cake that is not given to their character, and fan made false distinctions that have no basis in sense.

NotAllThatEvil

Now that I think about it, I think team microsoft is gonna win.

Zack Fair

Originally posted by ares834
And then you have times where Thor admits he can't keep up with Wolverine. Thor can not fight at FTL speeds except for a few examples all of which are very arguable. Death Sentry flew/choked him at FTL speeds and he was getting disoriented. Basically his body wasn't taking it too well.

Kind of stupid, but shows Thor is not a native speedster and that he does have trouble with inmense speed.

NotAllThatEvil

I feel this may have gotten slightly off track..

ScreamPaste

The sheer fact you need to type so much to rationalize it is a testimony to how in opposition it is to what we are shown and told.

PIS is PIS. Like when a much weaker character with advantages in no stats is made to look favourable in one stat to make it look interesting on panel.

Zack Fair

Hypersonic arrows.

Really?

CosmicComet

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
The sheer fact you need to type so much to rationalize it is a testimony to how in opposition it is to what we are shown and told.

PIS is PIS. Like when a much weaker character with advantages in no stats is made to look favourable in one stat to make it look interesting on panel.

Lol what?

The sheer fact that you can't retort in detail shows how easy it is for me to rationalize on this level. Because its correct. When you're correct, you can write a lot. What we are shown by itself is not always reliable. And likewise what we are told is not very much most of the time, nor is it usually explicit or suitably detailed enough to mean anything helpful. I addressed both of that thoroughly.

Yes, not sure what your point is by bringing that up, but that describes a situation that we have in a comic fight with someone like Thor vs Gladiator. A natural speedster who is just as strong and durable and immensely faster--by both feats, statements and direct comparisons, and thus is at no real disadvantage stat-wise, yet still loses.

ScreamPaste

No, if you're correct you don't need to spend an entire page explaining why.
"This is what, this is why, there you go."
^Simple and short.

I can retort just fine, but it's a lot simpler to pull out the core of what you're saying and point out why it's wrong. shrug

I was more accurately describing what happens most times a herald fights a meta or street leveller.

CosmicComet

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
No, if you're correct you don't need to spend an entire page explaining why.
"This is what, this is why, there you go."
^Simple and short.

I can retort just fine, but it's a lot simpler to pull out the core of what you're saying and point out why it's wrong. shrug

I was more accurately describing what happens most times a herald fights a meta or street leveller.

I gave you the simple "This is why, there you go" right within the post.

I also surrounded it by paragraphs rebutting every possible counter you could have.

No, you cannot retort, nor prove that I'm wrong, because you concede that I'm actually correct with your admission that comics are 'broken'. It's because of this very reason that they broken that forums exist, and why subsequently terms such as PIS exist, to make more sense of what comics show us and come to more realistic, non-plot concerned conclusions on match ups and such. The 'its fiction' excuse thus only goes so far in this medium of discussion. All that you've done is stated that you will continue to believe what you want to believe because its 'hey, its comics', while that same lazy, catch-all justification is actually just as easily used by me to rebutt certain things that you were saying.

You cannot ever have a being that is millions of times greater in reflexes than their native speed, unless it is explicitly being told by Word of God. Even then, it is still arguable as PIS, because it makes not one lick of intuitive sense by even laymen standards. End of.

ScreamPaste

Funny how I still have counters then.
Watch.

No, because your claim was not that comics are broken. By asserting that comics are broken I'm inherently disagreeing with you trying to rationalize what goes on within them.

I'll believe what actually happens on panel. You know, the canon.

Pre Flashpoint Karate Kid. Hell, Batman has shades of this, lol. Spider-Man. I don't care if you're okay with bullet timers, that's just a double standard. The fact is they commonly exemplify what you're arguing against.

NotAllThatEvil

I thought batman just reacted yo the arm of a baddy. More of an aim doger than a bullet doger...

CosmicComet

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Funny how I still have counters then.

Not really.

Ok. Where should I start looking?

Lol. This is what happens when you don't actually read what's presented to you. I know its a mountain of text that scares you, but it directly proves you wrong on this, if you'd take a moment to read it.

I stated the unreliability of comics/fiction in general, and illustrated it with several examples. My point was intrinsically always that.

When its convenient for you, that is. Besides that, what you interpret from the canon, is not necessarily the same as what the canon itself is meant to be showing. We see that by your constant assertions of Link being a lightning timer, when just as viable counter explanations exist, using the exact same canon material as you, leaving you in a perpetual loop where you can't prove your case and can't ask for clarification from developers either due to a language barrier.

By mentioning fiction being broken you've already conceded without any choice the idea that what you say or interpret is meaningful in any way, because you're interpreting from something that is shambles in the first place logically.

Oh, Pre Flashpoint Karate Kid is explicitly stated to have reflexes that are thousands to millions of times greater than his running speed by Word of God? Batman too? Scans? Links to statements?

Or are you just looking at the visuals, making assumptions where no values are given, and then coming to this conclusion? Again, we already know that combat representations in comics are largely unreliable, especially as the gap grows. So you have no example to stand on. You yourself just admitted that they are PIS just earlier.

You don't seem to understand what a double standard actually is. A double standard is differing opinions on equivalent cases. There is no equivalent case here. We're talking about things on a scale of judgement. What's acceptable, and what's not. Hence my scale of acceptibility starts at the bullet timing disparity level, in which the disparity is but a few multiples of tens or less. Literally, that is it.

As for Spiderman, its already been established by feats that his movement speed and reflex speed gap is actually even smaller than that, seeing as he has speed feats of actually moving around at mach levels outside of pure combat situations.

ScreamPaste

No, lol. You're arguing two separate things here, and moving the goal posts all at once, and then shooting yourself in the foot later:

You're making shit up where nothing indicates it. You're also throwing things out simply because they don't fit with what would be realistic in a setting where viking gods fight gamma irradiated scientists in purple pants.

IRL is not more canon to fiction than fiction.

We can use IRL to compare and extrapolate so far as IRL is not contradicted, it is here.

Ooooh. The claws are coming out. Don't let me reminding you that you don't get to rewrite the rules of fiction rustle your jimmies.

So you want to disregard 99% of comic book scans then, and only use ones backed by creator clarification? All right, we know that uh... Superman is strong, and that Thor beat up someone peer to Eternity, and uh... I forget what other statements have been made off the top of my head, honestly. mmm

This is entirely equivalent, you simply choose to allow one to skate by.

CosmicComet

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
No, lol. You're arguing two separate things here, and moving the goal posts all at once, and then shooting yourself in the foot later:

There no two seperate things here being argued.

I said reflex speeds cannot greatly exceed running speed.--Factually completely true and logically sound--.

I then went on to explain with examples of fiction having unreliable representations in comics that have to adhere to plot constrictions and thus are not to be taken as anything seriously representative in a neutral, plot vaccum, and this was in relation to the above statement.

And unlike you, I was actually showing malleability and awareness of the medium in question the entire time since I gave caveats as well; i.e. Its passable if the writer says it explicitly--even if its stupid. This is something I've said from the start, since the very beginning I brought this issue to play.

There were no goal posts ever being moved. I laid out all the facets of my argument from the get go and was completely aware of my stance.

It is you that is jumping around, acknowledging PIS and then trying to deny the usage when its inconvenient to you. Jesus Christ, at least I had the integrity to outright apply my logic to my favorite character(s), regardless of what their standing might become in a versus forum.

You already acknowledged PIS here:

"PIS is PIS. Like when a much weaker character with advantages in no stats is made to look favourable in one stat to make it look interesting on panel."

Sorry, but you don't get to retreat into the 'its fiction' shell again by mentioning outlandish details of characters.

IRL is not more canon than canon. Of course. No one said to ignore canon. Because it exists in a medium, we are forced to discuss it, we don't pretend it does not exist. Images in canon alone don't determine an actual truth however. You've acknowledged it. There's no turning back on this point. Let us not pretend now that plot suddenly not matters and is forgivable, when in our discussions when we're trying eliminate that factor altogether by creating hyptothetical situations of fight scenarios that take place in no other area than our mind, which is not published, consumable story material.

I suppose they are. You side-stepped them there for sure.

Unfortunately there is nothing to remind, I'm not re-writing rules so much as I am paying exact attention to typical battle-board customs.

Lol where did you come with this 99% figure? Arbitrary, random, and in all likelihood false.

There are loads of quantifiable occurences in comics. Loads of them. More explicitly and detailed than in any other form of fiction.

Again, I'm not even hand-waving some grand, cosmic scale stuff that would get in the way of showing off cool visual effects and epic scenary.

All I'm talking about is the basic fact that "You need to be X fast to do things Y quick." That's it. What I'm talking about can't get anymore simple.

You can't do things in a Y time frame without being X fast. Simple as can be. If its shown to happen in contradiction to that--with no outside factors involved, its simple PIS, outlier, fan-extrapolation etc. All of that. All unless its outright supported by a writer.

There is nothing to support the likes of Karate Kid have reflexes millions of times greater than his running speed (not to mention it gets murky because we know he augments his stats with Ki, and thus its arguable that his speed itself is being augmented too). These are just assumptions from scenes of him fighting characters he should not be fighting, but we have no explicit statements of speeds in for the characters that he are fighting. The gap I proposed is an outlandish idea and thus requires significant proof to support it, explicit, non-minced, straight forward wording. You have no proof of it. You just threw a name out and expected it to stick as a counter point when it has far too many lack of details to help you at all.

The numbers aren't equivalent at all. And that's what I was focusing on the entire time. Numbers. I know what I've been talking about and my points have been clear, yours, on the other hand, not so much. Basically you just want to say whatever is convenient to you and cry foul on PIS callings that you don't like yet acknowledge readily that PIS exists and cite such examples like Wolverine vs Thor as examples--you don't like it, and its inconvenient, and thus its PIS, yet what I'm talking about which is far more concrete, encompassing across a large range, and as unbiased as possible in attribution (seeing as I apply it to even my favorite characters to their detriment) is outlandish to you. I'm the one actually being flexible by acknowleding both sides of the coin, and am actually trying to be objective and consistent--so I'm not the one whose stance needs to be further pondered and reflected on. I stated before very clearly that reflex speed cannot 'greatly' exceed running speed. That's a caveat, in which I later clarified by giving numbers.

It's very simple you know. Extravagant things require extravagant proof. A person of a reflex level, hundreds, thousands, and especially millions+ times greater than their movement speed is a massive gap and requires immense proof to establish as true, because it has very odd, very grave implications (afterall, this is why lazer dodging is universally panned, its a grand claim as far as implications go, with very little proof of legitimacy) e.g. in an appropriate level of time dilation, said person's lower body would be as if it were transmuted to stone and unmovable, whereas their upper body would be moving normally.

I am not and never was displaying a 'double standard', things are very different as far as the scale of numbers go, and thats what it was always on, a scale. I have no personal attachment to the 'bullet timing' tier or anything, afterall, its the reason why I have to acknowledge that Cloud (a character I dislike intensely), beats Link (a character I like greatly). Its simply the most common heightened perception level tier in fiction. It's just very common, not overly large a claim in scope, and thus requires very little justification in question. The bigger the claim, the more evidence required, and it scales accordingly.

Sacred 117

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Pretty sure he had an armor lock on and was KOed for quite some time, that and using a piece of starship armor to land or something like that. Even then, that's at best a large building+ level durability feat, Kratos has at least town+ level DC so, yeah. HoD, wouldn't that be outside help? Marcus is merely peak human with guns so yea, he's useless

A few minutes at most. It's not as if he'll be facing that kind of force here because no one can drop him from orbit. If that's building level durability, then Kratos and everyone else would need to break him down. Of course, I'm not questioning that they can. I'm simply explaining why Team Micro isn't entirely useless here. Your statements have even helped to do that. Example: "town level durability" < weapon system that can torch a planet. On top of that, Marcus is pretty well above peak human. When you can stomp heads away and kick cars 50-100 meters, you're no longer just peak human. And no, so long as he has a hammer guide, he's completely on his own. Narratively, this isn't the case, but beyond that he has to make those decisions.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Now that I think about it, I think team microsoft is gonna win.

I'm curious as to your change of mind.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
I said reflex speeds cannot greatly exceed running speed.--Factually completely true and logically sound--.

Tell that to anyone who studies martial arts. Wing Chun in particular. Furthermore, Kratos doesn't run as fast as he reacts, and you know it. Care to point out your complaint about that in case I missed it? With similar logic, you would have to question why Link's striking power isn't enormously augmented by the golden gauntlets. That would probably sound something like "How can one's strength outclass their striking power by this many leagues?! It makes no goddamn sense!" In reality, that would more likely be true. In fiction, no one gives a f**k. Developers aren't going to let reality stand in their way of what they want to do. Namely because perceptions of reality vary from person to person (like here, for example). I think you're seriously overthinking this.

NotAllThatEvil

Well kratos and link are by far the strongest ones here. Being as they're both blade users instead of gunman, they would probably go for eachother first as that's the style they feel most comfortable with. Master chief is probably number 3 of the group. With the other two busy, he should be able to take fox and jax no problem. By the time link vs kratos is over, the winner will not be at the top of his game and mc should be able to take him out.

Sacred 117

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Well kratos and link are by far the strongest ones here. Being as they're both blade users instead of gunman, they would probably go for eachother first as that's the style they feel most comfortable with. Master chief is probably number 3 of the group. With the other two busy, he should be able to take fox and jax no problem. By the time link vs kratos is over, the winner will not be at the top of his game and mc should be able to take him out.

You left Marcus out of that equation, and you also discounted Jak's eco powers as well as Fox's experience with magic. I'd say you're right about Link and Kratos taking each other first. I personally believe Link would take that for reasons previously stated. There's just a few things you're missing that need be taken into consideration.

COG Veteran

Originally posted by Sacred 117
You left Marcus out of that equation, and you also discounted Jak's eco powers as well as Fox's experience with magic. I'd say you're right about Link and Kratos taking each other first. I personally believe Link would take that for reasons previously stated. There's just a few things you're missing that need be taken into consideration.

Marcus's and Chief's best hope would be to huddle in a hole in the ground until everyone else has annhilated eachother. But the power of Kratos and Link slugging it out would just probably cave it in anyhow. sad

ares834

Link vs Kratos typically wouldn't be that destructive. Either Link wins with some hax item or Kratos slices and dices.

Zack Fair

People making it sound like Link vs Kratus is Superman vs Hulk.

COG Veteran

In which case we might as well revive the Link vs Kratos thread if this is all we wann talk about.

NotAllThatEvil

Fox's magic really isn't that impressive. The devil launcher is his best bet. Marcus would obviously assist in the eradication of fox and jak, but I think MC has a bit more umph behind him.

Sacred 117

The way I see this, Link and Kratos are the most evenly matched. Marcus and Chief would have to operate as a unit to do themselves any good. Jak and Fox would be left to contend with them, and they're not friends in this situation.

Fox has all of them beat in speed, and he'd mostly likely have to rely on them because his strength is no match for any of them. That goes to Chief and Marcus. Jak is between them in physical terms, so the only thing he's beating them in is energy/power projection, which can possibly be contested by Fox's magic. However, Jak loses in tactics, which will go to Fox, Chief, and Marcus. Arsenal would be even all around.

Depending on how that turns out, those remaining (if any) would have to deal with the conflict between Link and Kratos should it still be going. Having said that, I believe Link has enough support equipment to keep up with Kratos, as well as enough holy weaponry to put Kratos away.

There's extensive consideration to be done here.

Sacred 117

Originally posted by Zack Fair
People making it sound like Link vs Kratus is Superman vs Hulk.

Not sure what you were getting at with this.

ScreamPaste

Yes, they are. You argue simultaneously that fiction is flawed and we should use IRL logic to fix them, and that it is not flawed and that they are aware of this illogical problem and address it, ie, that the problem does not exist.

Perfectly sound in real life where no one moves FTL or breaks multiple machs at sea level or fights titans or deities, or even fights inside stars, or moves black holes.

Put the claws away, boyo, they've no purpose here. I'm entirely aware of the strangeness of fiction and I've given examples of it rubbing me the wrong way and going against all logic, this does not mean I get to disregard it as much as I'd like to. This is awareness of the medium.

I use what fiction shows me and tells me to the best of my ability. Fiction has shown me that you can have high reflex and combat speed characters capable of fighting and keeping up with actual speedsters who themselves are not speedsters with great running speed or the like. This is just how it is.

We sort of agree on this point but the way in which we agree on it isn't going to make you do a happy dance.

Plot is separate from the displayed abilities of the characters in question. shrug I'll happily disregard lowshowings and general lowballing as well as outlandishly high showings that are obviously not applicable to a v.s. match, things that happened that are incongruous that had to happen because the plot said make it so.

This doesn't mean that I accept that all non-speedsters lack reaction time, because this detail is not tied to plot.

I've given examples of extreme versions of this sort of thing irking me, Wolverine v.s. Thor, for example, but that is where the actual abilities of the characters involved change to make things interesting for the plot resulting in a character looking vastly better than he is. This does not eliminate all instances ever of it happening, and is not tied to speedsters v.s. reaction time so much as my hatred for inconsistency within fiction in general.

My points have been crystal clear, I engage you on this in detail because I consider you a generally respectable poster, do not try my patience by insinuating I am not.

My point can actually be summed up in a single sentence:

Your logical breakdown of why something is impossible doesn't matter, because fiction chooses to allow it to happen, like many other illogical or impossible things.
Originally posted by Sacred 117
You left Marcus out of that equation, and you also discounted Jak's eco powers as well as Fox's experience with magic. I'd say you're right about Link and Kratos taking each other first. I personally believe Link would take that for reasons previously stated. There's just a few things you're missing that need be taken into consideration.
Link v.s. Kratos honestly does determine this thread. Omni-Link should come out on top in that regard. Though I'm sure I'm forgetting something important about Kratos' partner. I can't remember whether Moo was a big fan of Ratchet and Clank or Jak and Daxter, but I know he said one of those had some hax stuff. It still shouldn't tip the balance all too much.

Team Microsoft really is best off hiding in a hole as was said above. mmm

Waiting on Tzeetnch._ to tell us all MC soloes, though. He's late.