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Darth Plagueis (prime powers) vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ and before)

According to James Luceno's back cover, it says Darth Plagueis is the most powerful sithlord. Is this CANON ??

Sidious.

Originally posted by darth venki
Darth Plagueis (prime powers) vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ and before)

According to James Luceno's back cover, it says Darth Plagueis is the most powerful sithlord. Is this CANON ??
I think he is up until Sidious kills him, from then on Sidious will surpass him.

Originally posted by juggerman
Sidious.

I think the book said most powerful sithlord 'ever'. Also Luceno said in an interview that if it was a duel, Plagueis may have won.

I know its hard for me as a Sidious fan, but shouldnt we take this as a measure that Plagueis was stronger?

Sidious wins.

Originally posted by Stigma
I think he is up until Sidious kills him, from then on Sidious will surpass him.

I think the book said most powerful sithlord 'ever'. Also Luceno said in an interview that if it was a duel, Plagueis may have won.

I know its hard for me as a Sidious fan, but shouldnt we take this as a measure that Plagueis was stronger?

I have read both. As for your question, no: several sources confirm Sidious as the most powerful ever, Plagueis was the most powerful up until that point.

Yes several sources confirm before the Darth Plagueis novel came out. And it can be argued that Plagueis is most poweful 'ever' since if Sidious could increase his powers, Plagueis (if alive) would have increased too.. SO at the time of his death, he was most poweful and it can be extrapolated too right ?

Yes. Even Sidious at the time of Plagueis's death could be argued to be the strongest.

Originally posted by darth venki
Darth Plagueis (prime powers) vs Darth Sidious (ROTJ and before)

According to James Luceno's back cover, it says Darth Plagueis is the most powerful sithlord. Is this CANON ??

Darth Sidius wins. Plagueis has to sleep at some point.. then GIRK!

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Yes. Even Sidious at the time of Plagueis's death could be argued to be the strongest.

Yes but Sidious was uncertain whether he was a level or two behind. as in the book. Also Plagueis was yet to inform Sidious that he had increased his own midi-chlorians. Another important point: Tenebrous robbed Plagueis of his foresight, but still Plagueis could see a faint warning in the book (this is really power). Supposing Plagueis had foresight still, he would have been uber powerful. Its just my opinion.

Sidious was uncertain that he had learned all of Plagueis's secrets. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia notes that Sidious killed Plagueis upon receiving the skill to do so.

Yet Sidious said to Anakin, that he needs him to find the secret to cheat death after Anakin turned to dark side. So he has not done it yet. In fact he needed clones to survive. And Darth Plagueis knew the Qui-gon method to be one with the force, but this did not appeal to him, he wanted his material self also. Yoda said to Qui-gon that that was a power greater than any. And Plagueis was going beyond that and almost succeded.

What are we discussing?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What are we discussing?

Well, I was implying that Sidious did not posses the ultimate power over life and death. And that Plagueis power was even better than the Jedi's one with the force thing, which Qui-gon discovered and Yoda commented it was a greatest power.

So it boils down to Plagueis's being the most powerful. I think Lucas intends to keep the fans speculating.

Sidious surpassed Plagueis.

So its your opinion. Cuz, my money is on Plagueis. Because we will never know for sure. However as told in my previous post (from SW canon sources), Plagueis has achieved the greatest power.

ROTS Sidious>Plagueis>/= TPM Sidious

I'd say from ROTS on, Sidious is decidedly above his old master.

I love this quote from the book. It's Plagueis making a 17 year old Palpatine his Sith apprentice after his amazing talk with him..


Plagueis: "Then kneel before me. And pledge that it is your will to join your destiny forever with the Order of the Sith Lords.."

(Young Palpatine kneels and repeats pledge.)

Palgueis: "Then it is done. From this day forward, the truth of you, now and forevermore, will be,.... Sidious. In time, you will come to understand that you are one with the Dark Side of the Force, and that your power is beyond contradiction. But just now, and until I tell you differently, abiding submission is your only road to salvation.."



lol, cool huh?

Meh. Plagueis hasn't held up as well upon subsequent rereads. Definitely above average: Luceno, on his worst day, is still better than a McIntyre, Karpyshyn, or Hood, but it's no The Unifying Force.

And Traviss. Don't forget to mention her in the bad writers list.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
ROTS Sidious>Plagueis>/= TPM Sidious

I'd say from ROTS on, Sidious is decidedly above his old master.

We can also safely assume that Plagueis had already crossed ROTS Sidious, simply because he was vastly more knowledgeable and he had been an apprentice for over a human life span.

Originally posted by darth venki
We can also safely assume that Plagueis had already crossed ROTS Sidious, simply because he was vastly more knowledgeable and he had been an apprentice for over a human life span.
Luceno stated that Plagueis could have undermined his apprentice in TPM, indicating they were fairly close in power.
A RoTS Sidious with greater access to Plagueis holocrons and other resources would have surpassed him by then. And DE Sidious would just stomp.

Originally posted by Vensai
Luceno stated that Plagueis could have undermined his apprentice in TPM, indicating they were fairly close in power.
A RoTS Sidious with greater access to Plagueis holocrons and other resources would have surpassed him by then. And DE Sidious would just stomp.

Well, we cannot prove that, since all the holocrons and text in Aborah were already studied by Plagueis and given to Sidious. By ROTS it may not be possible.

Regarding DE Sidious, Yes as of now Plagueis will lose, but we can never know if Plagueis achieved a greater power if he was alive too.

Originally posted by darth venki
Well, every novel's major parts are approved by Lucas. And it is said that Lucas had lot of inputs in the Plagueis novel through Roffman. So If Luceno says he possesses the ultimate power and was the most powerful sith ever. Lucas obviously confirmed it to be published.

More over Lucas was adamant Plagueis die as in the book and by no other means.

So it can be considered that Lucas contradicts when he approved the Plagueis novel.
Sigh. Do you have evidence in quotes?
The point of the Bane Sith was for the apprentice to surpass the master. Besides, Plagueis' impressive but limited feats does not mean he is a sabers or force user on RoTS Sidious' level.

Originally posted by Vensai
Sigh. Do you have evidence in quotes?
The point of the Bane Sith was for the apprentice to surpass the master. Besides, Plagueis' impressive but limited feats does not mean he is a sabers or force user on RoTS Sidious' level.

1. The point of Bane Sith is to fight one on one and so the stonger will take the mantle. Sidious did not do that. As for the quotes its there in the back cover.

2. In the novel, Sidious says he and his master are more powerful than the most poweful Jedi before TPM, obviously Yoda was alive. So Plagueis > Yoda..
n if Yoda = Sidious.. rest is history

Originally posted by darth venki
1. The point of Bane Sith is to fight one on one and so the stonger will take the mantle. Sidious did not do that. As for the quotes its there in the back cover.

2. In the novel, Sidious says he and his master are more powerful than the most poweful Jedi before TPM, obviously Yoda was alive. So Plagueis > Yoda..
n if Yoda = Sidious.. rest is history
1. True. But by feats Sidious in RoTS is better than Plagueis. In sabers he held his own against Yoda and in force powers he dominated Maul and Savage. Plagueis' fight against Venamis hardly showcased power of this level.
2. You're using ABC logic and Sith tend to be arrogant.

You're probably the only one who considers Plagueis to be stronger than RoTS Sidious.

Originally posted by Vensai
1. True. But by feats Sidious in RoTS is better than Plagueis. In sabers he held his own against Yoda and in force powers he dominated Maul and Savage. Plagueis' fight against Venamis hardly showcased power of this level.
2. You're using ABC logic and Sith tend to be arrogant.

You're probably the only one who considers Plagueis to be stronger than RoTS Sidious.

Sidious of ROTS is a blur while he battles. Plaguies was also a blur to 114D's photo receptors, and it can actually dodge bullets. This was b4 Plagueis found Sidious.

Well, I am a Sidious fan, but the Plagueis novel has me leaning toward Plagueis.

And there are others like me on other forums speculating

Originally posted by darth venki
Sidious of ROTS is a blur while he battles. Plaguies was also a blur to 114D's photo receptors, and it can actually dodge bullets. This was b4 Plagueis found Sidious.

Well, I am a Sidious fan, but the Plagueis novel has me leaning toward Plagueis.

And there are others like me on other forums speculating
Blitzing a robot is nothing compared to Sidious blitzing three Jedi masters in RoTS.

Plagueis has no speed advantage. Maul is faster than Qui-Gon who can run in blurs and, per his Journal, Maul can't even see Sidious.

Just to showcase what I was saying before. Qui-Gon moves in a blur:

In a blur of motion, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan hurried to Tiin's aid, spinning and leaping in the face of the onslaught.

-Cloak of Deception

Maul is faster than Qui-Gon:

His attacker closed with him again, forcing him back, striking at him from every angle. Even without knowing anything else, Qui-Gon knew this man was trained in the fighting arts of a Jedi, a skilled and dangerous adversary. Worse, he was younger, quicker, and stronger than Qui-Gon, and he was gaining ground rapidly. The Jedi Master blocked him again and again, but could not find an opening that would provide any chance of escape.

-The Phantom Menace

Maul can't even see Sidious:

The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me.

Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow. I smell heat and smoke. The laser traces the outline of my body, my face, my hands. The buzz is loud in my ear. One flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle, and I am dead.

-Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Or its saying that when the Sith emerged there were two of them, and the strongest out of those two was Sidious.

The excerpt refers to the Sith as having watched and waited for a millennium. So unless Sidious and Maul were a thousand years old, it must logically refer to all Sith.

Which is corroborated by the line from the TPM scrapbook that the Sith's powers grew with each generation.

The excerpt switches from talking about the Sith in general to talking about the two who finally emerged.

Sidious wins. He is the most powerful Sithlord for a reason.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Or its saying that when the Sith emerged there were two of them, and the strongest out of those two was Sidious.

the thing is we can NEVER know in the present who was most powerful comparing Plagueis and Sidious, because Sidious cowardly killed Plagueis and did not follow the Bane tenets to ensure the survival of the stronger, while in a PROPER DUEL.

And in a PROPER DUEL, Luceno says Plagueis will have the upperhand.

n dude I have seen your other posts, impressive yes. carefully see my argument.

Darth Plagueis was released in January 2012. The Complete Visual Dictionary was re-released in September 2012 and mentions Sidious as the most powerful Sith ever.

Plaguies didn't even kill his master in a fair duel :I

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Darth Plagueis was released in January 2012. The Complete Visual Dictionary was re-released in September 2012 and mentions Sidious as the most powerful Sith ever.

What about Luceno's book saying Plagueis had the ultimate power and he was the most powerful sithlord ever ? Its right there on the back cover.

We can never know out of the two then.

Originally posted by darth venki
What about Luceno's book saying Plagueis had the ultimate power and he was the most powerful sithlord ever ? Its right there on the back cover.

We can never know out of the two then.
Wasn't that just hyperbole? Because there a lot more mentions of Sidious being the most powerful Sith. Your argument is done.
If you have feats of sabers or force surpassing Sidious, put them forth.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Plaguies didn't even kill his master in a fair duel :I

1. He pulled down the ceiling so fast that his master could not even realize what had hit him.. n his master was powerful too n before he could not EVEN sense. Such was the speed.

2. He did not make his master sleep n hit him. That is cowardly.

3. Tenebrous took out the foresight from Plagueis. That's the reason why he could not sense the danger from Sidious, supposing if u are gonna say Plagueis did not sense too.

4. Sidious did not man-up.

Originally posted by Vensai
Wasn't that just hyperbole? Because there a lot more mentions of Sidious being the most powerful Sith. Your argument is done.
If you have feats of sabers or force surpassing Sidious, put them forth.

I am saying this for the second time.
1. Untill TPM Plagueis is most poweful as confirmed by Luceno in his interview.

2. After that Sidious grew more poweful. But if Plagueis was around he would have grown more powerful too. He already increased his own midi-chlorian count and he was close to immortality. SO we can never know is the LOGICAL POINT.

What interview did he say this?

Originally posted by ares834
What interview did he say this?

You can google it. It was in a facebook interview. He said if it was a duel, Plagueis may have found a way to undermine his apprentice, hence the inference.

So he never said "Untill TPM Plagueis is most poweful". Good to know.

Originally posted by ares834
So he never said "Untill TPM Plagueis is most poweful". Good to know.

OK.

I dont consider Sidious cowardly for killing Plagueis in his sleep, I consider him efficent and intelligence. I see it as the same as him trying to flee a fight with Yoda. He has far too much self control to let his bloodlust effect his plans.

He has an agenda, a very wide reaching and long term goal and he isnt going to risk it in a single fight. He might calculate his odds of winning to be 60% or 70%. That means he has a significant advantage but it also means taking on a 30 or 40% chance of losing, and that isnt something that interests him. Part of what made him so successful was his cunning, He doesnt play the odds, he minimizes them as much as possible before doing anything. Once the fight with Yoda began Sidious was anything but scared, he loved it, but it was still a risk hed rather not take.

As far as Sidious vs Plagueis its hard to say. Plagueis was extremely powerful, and possibly could have almost equaled ROTS Sidious had he survived, but you have to remember the act of killing the master gives you a power boost. Plagueis had already recieved it and as of TPM Sidious hadnt so whatever advantage Plagueis held might not have been soley due to his natural power.

Add to that the fact Plagueis was free to spend all his time learning about the dark side while Sidious spent a lot of his time living the life of a politician. This gives Plagueis a big advantage as well since he had been able to intensively work toward reaching his potential, Sidious had been busy focusing on taking down the republic.

Ultimately I dont think Plagueis could have kept up. Maybe if he stayed the master until ROTS he could have stayed close, but once the republic was theirs and Sidious could spend some serious time learning more about the dark side he would have pulled away.

Originally posted by Decay
I dont consider Sidious cowardly for killing Plagueis in his sleep, I consider him efficent and intelligence. I see it as the same as him trying to flee a fight with Yoda. He has far too much self control to let his bloodlust effect his plans.

He has an agenda, a very wide reaching and long term goal and he isnt going to risk it in a single fight. He might calculate his odds of winning to be 60% or 70%. That means he has a significant advantage but it also means taking on a 30 or 40% chance of losing, and that isnt something that interests him. Part of what made him so successful was his cunning, He doesnt play the odds, he minimizes them as much as possible before doing anything. Once the fight with Yoda began Sidious was anything but scared, he loved it, but it was still a risk hed rather not take.

As far as Sidious vs Plagueis its hard to say. Plagueis was extremely powerful, and possibly could have almost equaled ROTS Sidious had he survived, but you have to remember the act of killing the master gives you a power boost. Plagueis had already recieved it and as of TPM Sidious hadnt so whatever advantage Plagueis held might not have been soley due to his natural power.

Add to that the fact Plagueis was free to spend all his time learning about the dark side while Sidious spent a lot of his time living the life of a politician. This gives Plagueis a big advantage as well since he had been able to intensively work toward reaching his potential, Sidious had been busy focusing on taking down the republic.

Ultimately I dont think Plagueis could have kept up. Maybe if he stayed the master until ROTS he could have stayed close, but once the republic was theirs and Sidious could spend some serious time learning more about the dark side he would have pulled away.

True that. I agree he would have stayed close up until ROTS. So up untill ROTS ends, we can never know. Its 50-50 chance for both of them. Remember during TPM, Sidious observes his master as nuclear oval of terrifying energy. So he might have gone on more, if he would have lived. So up untill ROTS it cannot be decided.

Here;

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
To be honest, debates about "most powerful characters" are typically useless. Several characters have received such promotion officially thus far and all of them have dedicated fans. It is unlikely to reach a consensus in this kind of conflicting scenario. Funny possibility is that an official consensus does not exists in this regard either.

Plagueis can be back in EP VII... Its a big possibiliy...

Sure it is.

A major Lucasfilm announcement coming soon it seems (starwars episode 7 update) http://www.starwars7news.com/2013/08/rumor-ian-mcdiarmid-to-return-in-star.html#more

n Sidious may return..

A major Lucasfilm announcement coming soon it seems (starwars episode 7 update) http://www.starwars7news.com/2013/08/rumor-ian-mcdiarmid-to-return-in-star.html#more

n Sidious may return.. but i think as a holo recording may be.. or bane may be returning.. who knows.. its all exciting

I hope they remake Dark Empire then. Dark Empire at its best was meh, at its worst... It's like the Sith Empire from TOR was what the Dark Empire should have been like.

I dont think they will make DE. It is said that Mark Hamill, Ford, Fisher are returning. All are aged. So It might be a new story some time after the FOTJ or following FOTJ.

The legacy comics which introduced Cade, Krayt should be made non-canon. It was total waste.

Dark Empire must be made non-canon... over hyped powers of Sidious in order to show Luke was near-equal power.. it was total shit.