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If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?

Did the Christian God create us sick and order us to be well?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pmArHBW9ns

Salvation can only be had by believers if they embrace barbaric human sacrifice and a God who will immorally have his own son murdered as a sacrifice to forgive sin when other more moral ways are preached in scriptures.

Matthew 7:17,18
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Matthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Christians would have us think that God, the good tree, --- produced corrupt fruit. Scriptures say that that is not possible. If you believe scriptures that say God is perfect that is.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

If God creates perfect works and souls, how can man not be perfect?

If perfect, why would we need salvation?

Regards
DL

because God gave man free will, and man decided to eat the fruit from the tree God had forbade them to.

We don't need salvation. But if you tell everyone that, humans will not try.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
If created perfect as scriptures say, why would we need salvation?

No where does it say we were created perfect.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No where does it say we were created perfect.

I was going to say the same thing.

God is an all powerful being.right?

Omnipotent
Omnipresent
Omniscient

Meaning hes all powerful, exists everywhere simultaneously, and sees everything.

Therefore he knew without a doubt the choice adam and would make considering he was there (omnipresent), already knew a snake was in the garden. Saw the event in its entirety before it ever happened(omniscient). Though chose to let it happen and get emotional about...

So in short ,god does not in my opinion exist for such idiotic reasoning.

It said" his work is perfect."
Unless you don't believe we are gods work

God is infinite unselected realities selected and collapsed into one that encompasses all the best possibilities. But those unselected possibilities had to happen for there to be something to be select from. Suffering is the product of infinity. Good doesn't exist without bad, because there's nothing to compare good to, it just isn't there. The problem with perfectness is the paradox. There has to be imperfection somewhere for there to be perfection. No one is going to Hell, its not a real place in the tenth dimension because only good things are selected and happen there.

So were the leftovers of collapsed dimensions and god is the new god here to relearn about us and reassure us of his holiness and ummm
where did you get thie tid bit of 9th dimensional wisdom

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
So were the leftovers of collapsed dimensions and god is the new god here to relearn about us and reassure us of his holiness and ummm
where did you get thie tid bit of 9th dimensional wisdom

We're not leftovers of collapsed dimensions. We're in one reality where things are the way they are, where there's a such thing as humans and gravity. One of infinite im/possible realities that are born and die. When you collapse that infinity, you get one existence that is something you, me, everyone else would want.

There's a paradox, if something is perfect, than there must be an imperfection to compare that to. How can a He know Himself if He's never experienced Himself? That's why we're here in an endless cycle of life and death, providing infinite data; to form a collective experience that's as infinite as Him.

Somewhere out there exists a reality we can all agree on. One we all find awesome, one we all find "perfect". In fact, there's infinity of them. When dealing with infinity, complex concepts like this emerge. All our existences will converge into one perfect one.

Originally posted by Dolos
Out of the three Second Timothy stood out the most for what I was saying. Always learning, never coming to the truth. It's exactly that, there are infinite things to learn, you'll never know everything until you achieve His infinite perspective. Never implies duration, when an existence or God stops experiencing, at that instant aggregate reality ends at no specific point in time at no specific location, it's replaced by God outside of the mad chaos of infinity. It's the realization of the delusion of oneself as being outside of God, we'd be forced to give up the facade of individuality. We're all touched by the Holy Spirit, which is the way in which God is able to be in all places and times at once.

http://www.asitis.com/11/

Do you believe that you have come to a knowledge of Jesus Christ (i.e. the Truth)?



John 14:6
Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.



http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=583890&pagenumber=2#post14440165



http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14448304#post14448304

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Do you believe that you have come to a knowledge of Jesus Christ (i.e. the Truth)?



http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=583890&pagenumber=2#post14440165



http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14448304#post14448304 No.

I believe no one has, but every one is trying. Everything is meant to be the way it is. What I do, what you do, has its purpose in making manifest the glory of God. They're functions. When it's all over, when all purposes are met, everyone will be happy as one because in that rapture the truth will be revealed.

Originally posted by Dolos
No.

I believe no one has, but every one is trying. Everything is meant to be the way it is. What I do, what you do, has its purpose in making manifest the glory of God. They're functions. When its all over, when all purposes are met, everyone will be happy as one.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=583162&pagenumber=1#post14448506

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=583162&pagenumber=1#post14448506 Exactly, Jesus had no sin.

But what is sin? Sin is something we can't avoid, but in trying, in continually working against it as opposed to accepting it brings about positive evolution. Without that effort, Jesus can't save us, because he cannot come about. Without evolution, consciousness cannot continue to emerge and be apart of the equation long enough to gain an infinite perspective. What is sin without a lack thereof? We get to the same issue as perfection. Sin is everywhere, and no where. Therefore it doesn't exist without a lack thereof. Now you have to apply that to the concept of infinity, the paradoxical concept that God represents. There must be infinite sin and an infinite lack thereof.

In your mind, is that answer acceptable? Does it make sense to you?

Hebrews 5:8
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;


This quote that Jesus was a sinner just like everyone else.

Regards
DL

tbh, what bothers me more is the "why have you forsaken me?"...surely a much more grievous denouncement and lack of faith in God than Moses hitting the stone twice, and he was punished, imo, severely.

God's incarnation was a bio-soup with the same chemical ups and downs as anyone else, though he possessed the best genes possible at that point in human evolution I'd assume, being the vessel of God and all. Some people have better control of their words and thoughts, better restraint, a higher pain tolerance. He was the epitome of that, and as for intellect he was a magician with logic and words in practice.

But what is sin? How do you define sin? You could accidentally step on an ant and kill it and you've sinned and for all eternity your soul is damned? I think not. Through Him all sins are removed.

Doesn't his whole "remove all sins by worshiping me" gig sort of make him the most corrupt judge in the universe's 6000 year history?

Originally posted by Master Han
Doesn't his whole "remove all sins by worshiping me" gig sort of make him the most corrupt judge in the universe's 6000 year history? Let's take religion out of the equation. Human beings are physiologically incapable of fully cooperating within society without war, without crime, without hatred. We can't, "not sin".

Originally posted by Dolos
Human beings are physiologically incapable of fully cooperating within society without war, without crime, without hatred.

Why do you suppose so? As unrealistic as world peace may be within the foreseeable future, "physiologically incapable" is quite the absolute turn of phrase. Furthermore, I interpret "sin" to be an individual rather than collective judgment.

I mean, even if being absolutely free of sin is effectively impossible, the ridiculous Christian idea that all human beings are sinful bastards is...quite pessimistic and demeaning. Especially given the contradictory sophistry that "evil is merely the absence of good", which suggests that being an otherwise good person with some bad spots should be interpreted as being good, but not infinitely good, rather than evil, but not infinitely evil. Yet the "even the tiniest sin makes you evil" bit sort of contradicts the good/evil - hot/cold analogy commonly parroted by apologists.

Originally posted by Master Han
Why do you suppose so? As unrealistic as world peace may be within the foreseeable future, "physiologically incapable" is quite the absolute turn of phrase. Furthermore, I interpret "sin" to be an individual rather than collective judgment.

I mean, even if being absolutely free of sin is effectively impossible, the ridiculous Christian idea that all human beings are sinful bastards is...quite pessimistic and demeaning. Especially given the contradictory sophistry that "evil is merely the absence of good", which suggests that being an otherwise good person with some bad spots should be interpreted as being good, but not infinitely good, rather than evil, but not infinitely evil. Yet the "even the tiniest sin makes you evil" bit sort of contradicts the good/evil - hot/cold analogy commonly parroted by apologists.

My point was that this entire world we live in is unfair, I'd imagine any human being can understand that concept.

In order for there to be a perfect system, there most once have been an imperfect system. Apply that to the paradoxical concept of infinity; a concept in which God, by very definition, entails. The only way God can experience is in the imperfect system, as an imperfect and temporary consciousness. There's also a duality between God and all temporary consciousnesses. Apropos, aggregate consciousness (God the Holy Spirit: the Omni-consciousness) happens when existence can no longer experience (death of temporary consciousness); going to a place without time, without space, experiencing all time and space, all possible or impossible realities simultaneously and therefore collapsing to all desirable experience and nothing besides. For eternity.

Jesus told us everything we needed to know. We are all children of God because the Holy Spirit resides within all of us, Jesus just has the purpose of Messiah. His lifetime influenced or set in motion a series of events that will result to keeping consciousness in this cosmos for as long as necessary. Perhaps by keeping us from destroying ourselves for evolution, perhaps by causing some - but not total - destruction to stall evolution. If one existence occurs that is without consciousness, the equation is set off, without an observer there is no infinity for collective consciousness. See the zeroth and tenth dimension, and refer to what happens when you do: 0 - 1. It's no longer zero because at least one thing (life) is proven impossible.

I believe in one thing; collective consciousness, that is, consciousness perceiving all consciousnesses by virtue of not perceiving existence through location and duration but perceiving all possible pasts-presents-futures and all possible heres-inbetweens-theres simultaneously. All other facts are subject to change because nothing is impossible; apropos, nothing hasn't happened.

Not to say predictions and guidelines (in Biblical texts) aren't providential here. In fact, the largest modern religion - Hinduism - does give a perspective very parallel to the aforementioned belief. If we are being viewed remotely by a consciousness that can affect us (and Super-string Theory has suggested this very possibility as being likely); than it is possibly providence. However, if such a thing is influencing wave functions to the accuracy of predicting events, why do we suffer? Perhaps it's attempting to reenact its own birth? And that would mean things like the Bible are the word of God, directly from the collective consciousness, from the "Prime Mover".

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
"...the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him..."

Upon death; you become a zero, nothing. You get what the universe was birthed in, you get the thing without space or time. You become the Prime Mover.

You'll see Him, you'll know Him, because you won't be you anymore, you'll be Him.

What Jesus says is that He must liberate you from sin if you are to enter heaven. How can that be if everyone goes to heaven? Because, given the aforementioned belief, there's a duality of truth here. If you are the collective consciousness than you define what perfection is: And so your perspective will not include the infinite imperfections, the infinite sins; You'll only see infinite perfections. No one will have sinned. Everyone will be from their sins, liberated.

My core belief is the result of one paradox: If something doesn't exist; than it is nothing: So therefore; all things exist because, by very definition, nothing doesn't exist.

It's a trippy abstraction when you think about it, nothingness is a lack of reality. So nothing isn't real.

Originally posted by Bardock42
tbh, what bothers me more is the "why have you forsaken me?"...surely a much more grievous denouncement and lack of faith in God than Moses hitting the stone twice, and he was punished, imo, severely.

That does show him as a non-believing whiner for sure.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Dolos
God's incarnation was a bio-soup with the same chemical ups and downs as anyone else, though he possessed the best genes possible at that point in human evolution I'd assume, being the vessel of God and all. Some people have better control of their words and thoughts, better restraint, a higher pain tolerance. He was the epitome of that, and as for intellect he was a magician with logic and words in practice.

But what is sin? How do you define sin? You could accidentally step on an ant and kill it and you've sinned and for all eternity your soul is damned? I think not. Through Him all sins are removed.

What a disgusting moral position to take.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-91mSkxaXs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4QXOgVfY9k&feature=player_embedded

I am not an atheist but Satan and Christians want atheists to embrace barbaric human sacrifice and the notion that we should profit from punishing the innocent instead of the guilty and here you are preaching for Satan. Shame on you.

In reality, if God did demand such a barbaric sacrifice, he would be sinning.

He would know that barbaric human sacrifice is immoral.

You do too. Right?

Those with good morals will know that no noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a so called son just to prove it's benevolence.

When you die, Satan will ask you; How was your ticket to heaven purchased? With innocent blood?

When you say yes, you become his.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Dolos
Let's take religion out of the equation. Human beings are physiologically incapable of fully cooperating within society without war, without crime, without hatred. We can't, "not sin".

Exactly. And for God to punish us for being exactly what he created would be unjust.

Right?

Regards
DL

Since you're ignoring my main theological hypothesis, relating to the interchangeability between the 0th and the 10th dimension - and what significance that holds on the subject in question, I'll let you duke it out with JIA. I'm not in the mood to go off on your little side-tangent.

Let me just make one addendum:

God was a human being just like you and I at that time. There was no way for Him to perceive the full extent or even comprehend what God was. He was scourged more severely than any other criminal being punished at that time, to the point that the epidermis surrounding His torso was shredded, and the fascia and muscle surrounding His ribs were ripped up as well, so as to see the white of bone. His grievous wounds were confirmed with physical evidence from the shroud of Turin. He was terrified, He was God with the mind and perception of a human being. He was wholly unable to comprehend what God is or where He was going. He said, "Why have you forsaken me?" Then, "It is accomplished. Into your hands, I commend my spirit." Obviously He needed some solace, some affirmation, He spoke out, and was granted solace and affirmation.

Originally posted by Dolos
My point was that this entire world we live in is unfair,

You don't say...



...what? No. On what basis did you come to this conclusion? And how does this have anything to do with your previous and following contentions?



...

So, do you believe in the Abrahamic God, or not?

Originally posted by Master Han
...

So, do you believe in the Abrahamic God, or not?

Is that the God that told Abraham to kill his kid?

The same God that had his own son murdered later in scriptures?

The same who tortured and finally murdered King David's baby after 6 days of torturing it because God was angry with David?

Is that the prick of a God you are asking about?

I believe but not in that vile God.

Regards
DL

For not believing in that "vile God" you sure do know a lot about him. Free your mind.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
For not believing in that "vile God" you sure do know a lot about him. Free your mind.

I like to know the topic. That is what frees the mind.

Are you saying you do not know the topic?

Regards
DL

The topic to me is like the argument over how long a unicorn's horn is.

A unicorn's horn is 6" long. No! it is 12" long!

Well, unicorns do not exist so...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The topic to me is like the argument over how long a unicorn's horn is.

A unicorn's horn is 6" long. No! it is 12" long!

Well, unicorns do not exist so...

So we are almost on the same page.

Regards
DL