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I'm curious about who y'all think are superior.

They fight at that place you like. You know the one.

They fight in your anal cavity?

I suppose it is large enough to accommodate them. mmm

Quiet.

I'm trying to think of my Sith list, but I'm on 11 and can't think about who to can:

Vitiate
Sidious
Bane
Nihilus
Plagueis
Exar Kun
Krayt
Malgus
Vader
Zannah
Caedus

Its either Vader or Caedus imo.

That order is queer.

I believe Caedus was stated to be superior to Vader(not sure).

Yeah, but that was only on the blurb, so I don't know if it counts.

Temp, its not in an order.

The great and powerful Gideon presented a wise argument against taking the publisher's summary as the gospel.

Caedus gave Grand master Luke a hard time. I don't see someone who lost to a rage boosted rookie Luke beating him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Quiet.

I'm trying to think of my Sith list, but I'm on 11 and can't think about who to can:

Vitiate
Sidious
Bane
Nihilus
Plagueis
Exar Kun
Krayt
Malgus
Vader
Zannah
Caedus

Get rid of Malgus, Vader and Caedus, add Sion and Traya.

The barely fought directly in that fight. In my eyes it doesn't prove much of anything.

Plus a shitton of people give Luke a hard time. Lomi Plo gave him a hard time.

Originally posted by noitseuq
Get rid of Malgus, Vader and Caedus, add Sion and Traya.

I'd sooner add Nyriss than Sion. Sion was repeatedly beaten by the Exile, while Nyriss curbstomped her and Scourge at the same time. I'm not sure about Kreia's power. She killed about a dozen Sith nonchalantly, but thats really it other than the drain.

Anyway, I say Vader because I dislike Caedus and think he's really overhyped.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anyway, I say Vader because I dislike Caedus and think he's really overhyped.
That's not a valid reason.

Caedus got kneecapped by a Mandalorian. God, what a fail moment. I wanted to strangle Traviss with her own vaginal pubes for that one.

Remember when she had Tahiri freeze up and get punked by a Mandalorian because her force powers didn't work and such a thing is 'incomprehensible' to her?

Tahiri whose half Vong.

New drinking game: take a shot every time a Mandalorian/clone disparages a Force user in a Traviss novel.

You'd be drunk by page 8.

And remember when Boba Fett beat up Jaina? And that other random Mando beat up Jaina?

Originally posted by Vensai
That's not a valid reason.

I think he's overhyped and Vaders better than him.

I remember Tahiri shooting Pellaeon, which made me incensed.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
New drinking game: take a shot every time a Mandalorian/clone disparages a Force user in a Traviss novel.

You'd be drunk by page 8.

8?

You'll need friends to distribute the amount of alcohol, our you'd die an alcoholic.

Replace Vader with Traya. You know you want to.

Replace Malgus with Revan as well if he counts.

Here's a reason: Caedus Has FL to put down a Vader who has already fallen far from his peak in RoTS. And just because people do well against Luke doesnt mean Caedus is less powerful, it means those people could probably give Vader a fight too. Caedus at his peak could challenge Yoda, let alone a broken man in a suit.

Originally posted by Vensai
Here's a reason: Caedus Has FL to put down a Vader who has already fallen far from his peak in RoTS. And just because people do well against Luke doesnt mean Caedus is less powerful, it means those people could probably give Vader a fight too. Caedus at his peak could challenge Yoda, let alone a broken man in a suit.

We get it. You obviously consider Nephthys's opinion invalid and don't consider Vader's better feats real feats.
Go make another topic about it if you must. As it stands, Team 2 loses all its limbs.

And Vader has a lightsaber to block Caedus' FL.

Yoda would thrash Caedus imo. I'm not impressed by the man at all.

Originally posted by noitseuq
Replace Vader with Traya. You know you want to.

Replace Malgus with Revan as well if he counts.

I dunno, I just don't think she's well-rounded enough and not enough is known about her abilities. Given that she has beaten by the Exile though, despite being more powerful and being on a darkside nexus of Malachor V's caliber..... meh.

Nah, Magus is above Sith Revan. He'd probably beat Jedi Revan imo.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
We get it. You obviously consider Nephthys's opinion invalid and don't consider Vader's better feats real feats.
Go make another topic about it if you must. As it stands, Team 2 loses all its limbs.
Ha ha. Very mature Tempest.
Does Vaders better feats include losing to a RoTJ Luke using the dark side?
Vader would not have been able to match Grandmaster Luke like Caedus did.

Yeah, Tempest. Grow up.

Yeah, Tempest.

Anyway, does anyone have an argument that isn't pointing to Caedus' fight with Luke? Because he's demonstrably less powerful than Luke is, Luke Forcepwning him several times in LotF and when Jacen does try to block him, Luke almost shatters his collarbone in response.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
We get it. You obviously consider Nephthys's opinion invalid and don't consider Vader's better feats real feats.
Go make another topic about it if you must. As it stands, Team 2 loses all its limbs.

Better feats? What better feats?

Lightsaber prowess: Caedus gives LotF Luke a ridiculously good fight, putting the grandson of the Force in a bacta tank for a week, even if he eventually lost.

Vader was, by his own rumnitions, only evenly matched with Luke in sabers as of RotJ.

Now unless if you think that RotJ Luke would do as well as Caedus did against Luke...

The fact is that Vader's mechanical limitations mean that his saber prowess is disproportionately low compared to his strength in the Force. Hence, even by ANH, he was only slightly superior to an out of practice Obi Wan, by a lesser margin than his younger self was superior to a more powerful and younger Kenobi.

Also, Caedus has a ridiculous damage soak, matched in the mythos only by Sion and possibly Maul. He seems unfazed by broken limbs, possibly even growing stronger with the pain.


Force powers: Not only is Caedus explicitly more powerful than Vader here, he has demonstrated superior feats and a wider breadth of Force abilities.

He has force lightning, he has a host of exotic Force abilities learned from his travels, he knows shatterpoint (and would therefore detect Vader's weaknesses), his skills with illusions were such that he was able to fool even Luke early in LotF. He's also deflected turbolaser bolts.

Narrative declarations from an OOU perspective should stand unless if contradicted by a large plethora of evidence, and that just doesn't apply here.

And even if Vader were more powerful than Caedus...he simply gets annihilated in a lightsaber duel.

Vader's damage soak is superior to Caedus' given how durable his armor is.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vader's damage soak is superior to Caedus' given how durable his armor is.

Not to lightning, and not against a shatterpoint-adept Caedus that can shatter beskar armor with a tap.

Given that even ESB Luke manages to get in a potshot...yeah, Vader isn't lasting 30 seconds in a duel.

Yes to lightning. His armor is still better against it than Caedus' raw flesh. But I see your point about the shatterpoint. Obviously he won't be able to do that against Vader though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes to lightning. His armor is still better against it than Caedus' raw flesh.

Not really, or else Palpatine wouldn't make a show of "I can kill you easily with lightning!" in RoDV. And Caedus, knowing shatterpoint, would recognize Vader's suit's vulnerable portions.



I don't see why he won't; Windu employed it against Palpatine.

Except as you said, in TFU games he tanks Galen Mareks lightning which took down an AT-AT. Is Caedus' skin tougher than an AT-AT?

I mean that he wouldn't break Vaders armor with a tap since Vader won't let him.

I hate TFU for that type of overpowered feats. But it's true, it's canon.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Except as you said, in TFU games he tanks Galen Mareks lightning which took down an AT-AT.

Uh, wait...do you have a source, out of curiosity?



No, but his Force defenses are, given that Luke takes down an AT-AT using "mere" TK in DE, and Caedus while prepared doesn't appear to fall easily to Skywalker.



How will Vader resist a technique he doesn't know, and that he can't possibly deduce Caedus knows? He couldn't "not let" Starkiller exploit Vader's armor's weak areas, so why would he be able to do so to Caedus? Palpatine couldn't block Windu's shatterpoint.

------

And I think we're getting off topic here: the point is that RotJ Vader = RotJ Luke in sabers, and Caedus >>>>> RotJ Luke in sabers.

Originally posted by Master Han
Uh, wait...do you have a source, out of curiosity?



No, but his Force defenses are, given that Luke takes down an AT-AT using "mere" TK in DE, and Caedus while prepared doesn't appear to fall easily to Skywalker.



How will Vader resist a technique he doesn't know, and that he can't possibly deduce Caedus knows? He couldn't "not let" Starkiller exploit Vader's armor's weak areas, so why would he be able to do so to Caedus? Palpatine couldn't block Windu's shatterpoint.

Wut? Y-you said it in the other thread? Don't you know the source?

I'm not seeing evidence that Caedus' defenses are that tough. But you accept my point about Vader having better durability so ok.

Vader knows about Shatterpoint from Windu, obviously. And I meant that Vader isn't going to let Caedus shatter his armor in that manner. Either by not letting Caedus get his hands on him in that manner or protecting against the Force. Starkiller exploited a breach he himself had made with his lightsaber.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wut? Y-you said it in the other thread? Don't you know the source?


I said AT-ST, not AT-AT.



Vader has better durability against standard attacks, but not against lightning, not when Caedus can locate his suit's weak points.



But he doesn't know it himself, nor does he know that Caedus possesses the technique. Nobody knew, until Jaina observed him using it.



That would be all fine, until we come to the fact that Caedus is the vastly superior lightsaber combatant, and is more powerful, both in depth and breadth, in the Force.

Ah, well it was an AT-AT and its from the first Force Unleashed novel:

'Automated weapons emplacements spotted him instantly. Red weapons fire stitched lines of explosions across the station's patchwork hull as he ducked between the AT-AT's massive legs. Scooping up components from the nearest construction conveyor belt, he threw a series of high-speed missiles at the turrets, knocking five out of commission. A stream of Sith lightning put the AT-AT itself out of action, and a good, solid shove tipped it over with a crash, providing cover for the Wookiees when the time came to cross.

The quartet had already started firing at stormtroopers converging on the scene. A furious exchange of blasterfire painted the air thick with energy. The apprentice deflected anything headed his way as he hacked into the side of the AT-AT and dropped into its munitions bay. The crew within was no threat, killed by the lightning, but he was careful not to knock any of the charges in case their contents had become unstable. He didn't want it to blow up just yet.'

And no, Vader is still better against lightning because of his armor.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ah, well it was an AT-AT and its from the first Force Unleashed novel:

'Automated weapons emplacements spotted him instantly. Red weapons fire stitched lines of explosions across the station's patchwork hull as he ducked between the AT-AT's massive legs. Scooping up components from the nearest construction conveyor belt, he threw a series of high-speed missiles at the turrets, knocking five out of commission. A stream of Sith lightning put the AT-AT itself out of action, and a good, solid shove tipped it over with a crash, providing cover for the Wookiees when the time came to cross.

The quartet had already started firing at stormtroopers converging on the scene. A furious exchange of blasterfire painted the air thick with energy. The apprentice deflected anything headed his way as he hacked into the side of the AT-AT and dropped into its munitions bay. The crew within was no threat, killed by the lightning, but he was careful not to knock any of the charges in case their contents had become unstable. He didn't want it to blow up just yet.'



Interesting.

I would point out that Luke takes out an AT-AT with telekinesis in Dark Empire, and Caedus > DE Luke, IMO.



Except that, if he were, you can't explain Palpatine's "trololol I can kill you easily with lightning" rant in RoDV.

And none of this changes that Vader wouldn't last thirty seconds against Caedus.

I don't actually care about Vader vs Caedus anymore, I was just pointing out that Vader is clearly more durable and has better damage soak than Caedus. Caedus can take injuries well, but Vader is much tougher to injure. As you said Luke hits him in ESB and his lightsaber barely does anything.

^fair enough.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anyway, I say Vader because I dislike Caedus and think he's really overhyped.

Same

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Same

Too bad for you that he's still vastly more powerful than Vader in every category.

He crushes Vader within seconds.

''within seconds''?

Yes. RotJ Luke = RotJ Vader in sabers. Judging from Caedus's performance against LotF Luke...

I mean, "seconds" isn't nearly as fast as you'd think for a duel.

Luke was injured though, and the environment favored Caedus, didn't it?

I know, but you made it sound like Caedus would shitstomp Vader.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Luke was injured though, and the environment favored Caedus, didn't it?

I know, but you made it sound like Caedus would shitstomp Vader.
He wasn't. His rib cage was more sensitive as it healed recently but it didn't affect his movement or performance. That hardly qualifies as injury. In comparison Luke attacked Caedus from behind and managed to deal shin strike to kidney, which made beginning of the fight heavily favoring Luke.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Same
Thats not a valid argument.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I know, but you made it sound like Caedus would shitstomp Vader.

TBH...he sort of will. As in, Caedus outclasses Vader in nearly every conceivable area. Perhaps you could argue that Vader has superior TK feats, but that isn't saving him from a lightsaber duelist that gave Luke a plethora of serious injuries.

Originally posted by Vensai
Thats not a valid argument.

That he's overhyped is.

Originally posted by Arhael
He wasn't. His rib cage was more sensitive as it healed recently but it didn't affect his movement or performance. That hardly qualifies as injury. In comparison Luke attacked Caedus from behind and managed to deal shin strike to kidney, which made beginning of the fight heavily favoring Luke.

Good to see you back here Arhael.