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This is AOTC Dooku... AOTC Maul and ROTS Kenobi

1. Sabers
2. Force
3. All out

AotC Maul?

Regardless, the outcome is the same as in the other thread involving similar participants: Sidious kills Maul and Kenobi before either can react, then proceeds to kill Dooku after a dull fight.

Please make better threads. You didnt specify if it was RoTS Sidious. Regardless, he knows his opponents well enough to separate them.
And DE Sidious stomps so hard it would be an insult to call it a stomp.

What is AoTC Maul?

1. Team
2. Sidious
3. Sidious

I dunno guys, adding Dooku might make this a harder fight for Sidious than you're thinking.

Sidous already demonstrated he can casually own Maul and Savage with the force. Kenobi and Maul should be just as easy to defeat.

I doubt so with Dooku helping them.

Like Mace was helping Kolar, Tiin and Fisto?

Originally posted by ares834
1. Team
2. Sidious
3. Sidious



Sidious wastes Kenobi and Maul and then takes out Dooku. He'll probably lose the strict duel, though.

How does he lose a strict duel?

Well, he'd probably blitz Maul and Kenobi. Maybe Dooku can't win the day while he does.

First I meant to say TPM maul.. but had AOTC in my head. There is no way he blitz maul or kenobi the way he did the Jedi. Maul woudl last longer and has lasted longer. Kenobi is as the master of defense and giving ground.. no way he gets blitzed so quickly. In a strict saber duel the team should win.. The rest goes to sids imo.

Nah, Sidious definitely blitzes them. Obi-Wan can't even compete with Sidious per Lucas and Maul was crushed the second Sidious got visibly pissed.

Assuming he "unleashes his full fury," the lesser peeps go down and The Count proceeds to have the worst day of his life.

not really... as I'm only talking about Sabers... Sids owned maul via the force once he got serious. Sabers not so much. Lucas wasn't talking about just sabers.. it was a broad sweeping statement just wasn't talking about sabers. If you have a quote from him that I haven't seen saying only Yoda and Mace can compete with him in sabers.. post it. If not that quote is related to what I'm saying. Dooku.. Maul and Kenobi would beat Sids in a stricly sabers duel

Not really... the second Maul actually landed a hit on Sidious and Sidious was visibly angered, he ended the duel in the very next move, physically overpowering and disarming Maul... Lucas issued that declaration in response to the so-called B-team's inability to threaten Palpatine... and the B-team only used their lightsabers and not the Force at all... it clearly refers to any medium of Jedi/Sith combat... Obi-Wan and Maul are fodder for a Sidious who is taking the fight seriously... he's better: stronger, smarter, faster, more skilled, more agile... they can't stop him... and no way will Dooku be able to kill his Master in the 3 seconds it takes Sidious to flatten Maul and Obi-Wan... Sidious wins all three...

Only it wouldn't take 3 seconds as Kenobi would last longer than that. Yes, Sids could win in sabers as well... but it would be as easily as you make out. Glad to see your concession though on the Kenobi vs. Fisto thread. Nice job

Nah it would take 3 seconds... Obi-Wan's just too much of a loser to stand against Sidious... even George said so lol... he can't even "compete"... Nice red herring sweetheart, it's good to know I struck a nerve with you lololol.....

Yeah, Obi-Wan can't compete with Sidious as Sids can just dismiss him with the force.

I have it:

1. Team
2. Sidious
3. Team

Originally posted by ares834
Yeah, Obi-Wan can't compete with Sidious as Sids can just dismiss him with the force.

Or impale him with his large, uncompromising rod of destruction.















And then stab him with a lightsaber, too.

I understand not ranking Obi-Wan that much more highly than the likes Agen/Saesee/Kit; I'm not completely sure how I see it yet but I'm thinking I probably would rank him quite a bit above them but not drastically so, but it seems that on one end you have his far greater exposure leading people to believe he's leagues superior, but then on the other end you have people more deeply analysing the source material and concluding that he hasn't truthfully proven himself to be vastly superior.

But even if you think of him in the same light as the Kit/Agen/Saesee trio, being the absolute master of the style designed for defence, I cannot imagine that Sidious would be able to handle him quite as easily.

Likely by virtue of vastly superior physicality and a more complete mastery of all 7 forms.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
and a more complete mastery of all 7 forms.

what?

That should read: Sidious has more complete mastery, having mastered all 7 forms.

Even still... what? Since when?

The Clone Wars Episode Guide.

Does it state when he mastered them?

Nope, presumably some time prior before "The Lawless" which is the episode in which the factoid is given.

Apparently the episode guides have been removed from the website... S-Canon?

Wasn't talking about the website's episode guides.

Damn it...

My torrents seem to have failed me, you wouldn't happen to have a scan of that page lying around somewhere would you?

I would.

Your desperation is gratifying.

Kenobi is only slightly better then Fisto/Tiin/Kolar so he gets pwned easy. Maul gets pwned to. Then Dooku gets hacked up. Sidious wins taking all 3 scenarios.

Well this news is very damaging to future arguments I was planning on having... I had a good dozen or so Bane threads in the pipeline that now may never see the light of day.

Post it please?

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Kenobi is only slightly better then Fisto/Tiin/Kolar so he gets pwned easy. Maul gets pwned to. Then Dooku gets hacked up. Sidious wins.

Well said, my son.



Soon, my other son. Soon. I'd like to enjoy your anguish a little more.

To be honest sometimes it feels like these reference guides have been made specifically to make my job harder. Its like these guys are out to get me, they resent my friendship with Drew and so they're taking it out on all of my favorite characters... It's just not fair! Tell me the name of the jackass that wrote this latest guide so that I can send Intrepid after him.

Originally posted by noitseuq
But even if you think of him in the same light as the Kit/Agen/Saesee trio, being the absolute master of the style designed for defence, I cannot imagine that Sidious would be able to handle him quite as easily.
The problem does not lie in Kenobi's lack of skill as a defensive swordsman. He simply lacks the speed to even compete with Sidious.

Originally posted by noitseuq
Tell me the name of the jackass that wrote this latest guide so that I can send Intrepid after him.
And I will unleash my cumfull fury upon him...

...especially if it's Karpyshan, or the ******* who wrote the TFU books.

Sure but Soresu was designed in such a way that he doesn't need to be as fast as his opponents to be able to successfully defend himself against them, but rather more efficient with his movements. If it were a matter where Sidious was simply so much faster than him that Obi-Wan didn't have the reflexes to respond to any of his movements, then it might be a little different but I don't think you can say that that great a disparity in speed exists; Kit as an example did get destroyed in seconds but he was at least able to not get completely blitzed and managed to last a couple of exchanges. Obi-Wan may not be the vastly superior swordsman to Kit but I don't think it's a stretch to say that he's the vastly superior defensive swordsman.

And you leave Drew alone!

Originally posted by Intrepid37
AotC Maul?

Regardless, the outcome is the same as in the other thread involving similar participants: Sidious kills Maul and Kenobi before either can react, then proceeds to kill Dooku after a dull fight. Its not Sidious vs Maul & Kenobi and then afterwards Sidious vs Dooku. Even with Sidious being the clear superior of either 3, pitting each against him creates a 3 on 1 situation, in which I believe the team can take the 'all out' department, due to the numbers game. Remember Maul & Kenobi are no pushovers and Dooku is arguably 80% Sidious. And by the way I am assuming this is ROTS Sidious. I'll also note that Dooku felt confident that he and Kenobi could overthrow Sidious (AOTC).

Originally posted by ares834
Sidous already demonstrated he can casually own Maul and Savage with the force. Kenobi and Maul should be just as easy to defeat. There is a vast difference between Maul & Savage compared to Maul, Kenobi & Dooku.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, Sidious definitely blitzes them. Obi-Wan can't even compete with Sidious per Lucas and Maul was crushed the second Sidious got visibly pissed.

Assuming he "unleashes his full fury," the lesser peeps go down and The Count proceeds to have the worst day of his life. I know I'm an Obi Wan fanboy, I admit it, but I'm assuming you're a Sids fanboy? Because as of ROTS, one does not simply blitz Kenobi and his mastery of Soresu. At least with the help of Maul & Dooku.

Mace Windu, Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin confronted Palpatine: all four are among the best swordsmen in the order, some among the best ever produced: three of them were blitzed, the last one forced back.

I have no idea why you think he'd be able to slaughter three celebrated swordsmen but not Kenobi and Maul (both of whom at best are as fast as Fisto).

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Mace Windu, Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin confronted Palpatine: all four are among the best swordsmen in the order, some among the best ever produced: three of them were blitzed, the last one forced back.

I have no idea why you think he'd be able to slaughter three celebrated swordsmen but not Kenobi and Maul (both of whom at best are as fast as Fisto). Because Fisto & Co lack the defensive capabilities that Kenobi excels at, which makes Kenobi last considerably longer than them, as well as Kenobi having previous experience with Sith Lords. And Maul - 1. He is approx. on par with Kenobi and 2. knows Sids. Basically Fisto & Co have the skill, but lack the X factor, which Maul & Kenobi have.

How would his defensive capablitites matter when he can't even see what he's defending from?

Prove it please.

Prove what?

Fisto whirls his blade fast enough that its surrounding blurs seemingly create a ''cyclone'' of light. Neither Kenobi nor Maul has ever fought that fast.

To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light. Resistant to the energy outpourings of a lightsaber, the phrik alloy staffs were potent weapons, but like any weapon they needed to find their target, and Kit simply wasn't allowing that.

-Labyrinth of Evil

Surely not hyperbole or just a fanciful description.

It's better than any hyperbolic description Kenobi and Maul have.

Also,

Fisto moves so fast he seems to be in three places at once:

From the corner of his eye he saw that Kit had made his way almost to Ventress, and what he saw as the Nautolan increased his efforts almost broke Obi-Wan's concentration. His companion was a living, martial hurricane, his body moving in two and three directions at once, joints flexing, unlimited by human vertebral restraints.

-The Cestus Deception

Thats just his body moving in 3 directions at once because of his alien flexibility. Its nothing to do with speed.

Alien flexibility lol. Yes it does. Still waiting for showings from Maul and Kenobi that matches Fisto's lightsaber glowing extremely much due to the blurs created.

No it doesn't. He's just being a weird alien and spazzing out all over the place because his spine is crazy flexible.

Flexibility alone does not make it possible to be in three places at once.

It makes it possible to move in three directions at once, which is what the text actually says.

Why do you think its mentioning his flexibility in the first place?

It doesn't say that.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Still waiting for showings from Maul and Kenobi that matches Fisto's lightsaber glowing extremely much due to the blurs created.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's better than any hyperbolic description Kenobi and Maul have.

Also,

Fisto moves so fast he seems to be in three places at once:

From the corner of his eye he saw that Kit had made his way almost to Ventress, and what he saw as the Nautolan increased his efforts almost broke Obi-Wan's concentration. His companion was a living, martial hurricane, his body moving in two and three directions at once, joints flexing, unlimited by human vertebral restraints.

-The Cestus Deception



And yet he still gets tooled by early CW Ventress.

While disadvantaged. Have you not read their fight?

Originally posted by noitseuq
I understand not ranking Obi-Wan that much more highly than the likes Agen/Saesee/Kit; I'm not completely sure how I see it yet but I'm thinking I probably would rank him quite a bit above them but not drastically so

What makes you think this?.

Kenobi is only a slightly better saber duelist then Fisto. I see no reason for Sidious not to blitz him. Sidious blitzed 3 of the best Jedi masters of all time in seconds and would have eventually killed the 4th in the saber duel(had he not been holding back).

Originally posted by Intrepid37
While disadvantaged. Have you not read their fight?

Fact is AT BEST Fisto maybe comparable to Ventress (though she still beats him 1-0 so far). But there's nothing to put him on par with late CW Maul/Kenobi.

ROTS Kenobi has by far the best Saber victory over the best trained Grievous. And both Maul and Kenobi have stomped Opress in a way Ventress/Fisto could only dream of.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Kenobi is only a slightly better saber duelist then Fisto. I see no reason for Sidious not to blitz him. Sidious blitzed 3 of the best Jedi masters of all time in seconds and would have eventually killed the 4th in the saber duel(had he not been holding back).

First of all this only slightly better claim is something you've completely made up.

But even assuming it's true, of course there's reason to believe Kenobi would last longer than Fisto against Sidious. He's The Master of the most defensive lightsaber form and has an amazing defense velocity with his Saber which Dooku felt like he wouldn't even bother trying to get past. It's also a defense velocity which defended against Grievous's 20 strikes per second.

Except that Dooku is no Sidious, who's canonically mastered all 7 forms, as a duelist, fighter, or Force user. And per Lucas, Obi-Wan can't even compete with Sidious. Obi-Wan is nothing but meat for the proverbial and inevitable grinder.

Well compete is a relative term and we can't say that applies in a lightsaber only scenario.

Originally posted by noitseuq
Well compete is a relative term and we can't say that applies in a lightsaber only scenario.

Given that the declaration was issued in a context in which only lightsabers were used (Sidious striking down Tiin, Kolar, Fisto), we can say that it applies universally.

And Savage has stomped Kenobi badly. 3times to be exact.



What makes Kenobi>>>>Fisto?. From what I've seen the only fighters Kenobis taking down in legit fights are Grievous and Ventress. Fisto took down the first and would have beaten the 2nd who's given Kenobi MANY problems.

So how is Kenobi not slightly better then Fisto?. Kenobi is stronger yeah, but hes only slighty better then Fisto, whos a good fighter.



There isint. Sidious is far faster. Kenobi is at best a equal to Fisto in speed. Sidious blitzed Fisto. Even though Kenobi is better with a saber by a slight amount then Fisto dosint mean he lasts longer. At best he would last 5seconds.



Fisto beat said Grievous. So that means nothing.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Kenobi is only a slightly better saber duelist then Fisto. I see no reason for Sidious not to blitz him. Sidious blitzed 3 of the best Jedi masters of all time in seconds and would have eventually killed the 4th in the saber duel(had he not been holding back).

While you may only be open to Obi-Wan being the slightly better swordsman, is it really that out of the question that he's the vastly suyperior defensive swordsman? He might not necessarily pose a great threat in a one-on-one lightsaber battle but simply being able to survive for an extended period of time would be extremely valuable in a team based scenario.

I also find the idea that they were "3 of the best Jedi masters of all time" highly questionable.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Fisto beat said Grievous. So that means nothing.

Obi-Wan beat Grievous back when it was worth a damn. From what I've heard, within the realm of The Clone Wars cartoon, Kit Fisto possessing a win over Grievous is something he shares with, among others, Ahsoka Tano.

Originally posted by noitseuq
While you may only be open to Obi-Wan being the slightly better swordsman, is it really that out of the question that he's the vastly suyperior defensive swordsman? He might not necessarily pose a great threat in a one-on-one lightsaber battle but simply being able to survive for an extended period of time would be extremely valuable in a team based scenario.

Apparently he doesn't pose any threat at all, since he doesn't even qualify as a "competition" to Sidious per Lucas.

Originally posted by noitseuq
I also find the idea that they were "3 of the best Jedi masters of all time" highly questionable.

They might not be on Sidious's level, no, but they're better than chumps like Johun and Bane.

Why not?.

Tiin has redirected homing missels at point blank range. Has thrown around droids with his mind. Stalemated Mace Windu in sabers. Believed to have read Qui Gons mind.

Kolar has been stated to be one of the best saber duelists along with Mace Windu in the orders history and has bested Quinlan Vos with complete and total ease well holding back a feat only replicated by Count Dooku and Mace Windu.

Kit Fisto has defeated Obi Wan Kenobi in Cestus Deception been stated to have has moved so fast he looks as if hes in 3 places at once and dominated General Grievous.

Sidious speedblizting them shows how awesome and powerful Sidious is. And shows how his power ecplises even some of the greatest saber duelists and fighters in the history of the Jedi order. He would have killed the 4th in the saber duel eventually(as he held back vs Windu).

Originally posted by noitseuq
Obi-Wan beat Grievous back when it was worth a damn. From what I've heard, within the realm of The Clone Wars cartoon, Kit Fisto possessing a win over Grievous is something he shares with, among others, Ahsoka Tano.

Ahsoka never beat Grievous. Fisto tooled Grievous worse then Kenobi has in many of his fights vs the general in the CW. Kenobi did slightly better vs Grievous in ROTS which is why he's only slightly better then Kit. Kenobi/Kit are both far above Grievous.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Given that the declaration was issued in a context in which only lightsabers were used (Sidious striking down Tiin, Kolar, Fisto), we can say that it applies universally.

Well it technically refers to the entire engagement which also includes Mace Windu defending against Sidious's force powers.

Besides, I'd say the situation (it being primarily a lightsaber contest) was more incidental to the declaration rather than essential. It makes more sense in any life and death situation to be speaking in all-out terms as there are essentially no rules in a life and death scenario, no organised terms of battle, regardless of whether it resembled one that we typically deal in.

Kenobi>Fisto in defence and Fisto>Kenobi in offensive. Which is why it balances out to Kenobi>Fisto by a slight edge.

True but again Fisto has better speed feats then Kenobi and is faster. At best Kenobi=Fisto in speed. So Kenobi wont be able to react to Sidious before Sidious slams a saber through his chest just like he did to Kit.

Originally posted by noitseuq
Well it technically refers to the entire engagement which also includes Mace Windu defending against Sidious's force powers.

Besides, I'd say the situation (it being primarily a lightsaber contest) was more incidental to the declaration rather than essential. It makes more sense in any life and death situation to be speaking in all-out terms as there are essentially no rules in a life and death scenario, no organised terms of battle, regardless of whether it resembled one that we typically deal in.

The inherent and damning flaw in that interpretation being that if Obi-Wan were capable of challenging or holding his own against Sidious in a strict fencing match... he would logically qualify as "competition" which flies in the face of George's declaration that says "you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor" in response to the humiliating deaths of Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar. Obi-Wan simply can't challenge Sidious in any aspect of combat. Which makes the most sense.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
True but again Fisto has better speed feats then Kenobi and is faster. At best Kenobi=Fisto in speed.

I'd say Kenobi is faster personally. I don't see Fisto shocking Dooku with his speed like Kenobi did in the RotS novel.

Now whether thats even canon....

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd say Kenobi is faster personally. Dooku with his speed like Kenobi did in the RotS novel.

Now whether thats even canon....

When did he do this?. Can I get a quote on it?.

He leaned into a thrust at Kenobi's gut that the Jedi Master deflected with a rising parry, bringing them chest-to-chest, blades flaring, locked together a handbreadth from each other's throats. "Your moves are too slow, Kenobi. Too predictable. You'll have to do better."

Kenobi's response to this friendly word was to regard him with a twinkle of gentle amusement in his eye.

"Very well, then," the Jedi said, and shot straight upward over Dooku's head so fast it seemed he'd vanished.

And in the space where Kenobi's chest had been was now only the blue lightning of Skywalker's blade driving straight for Dooku's heart.

Only a desperate whirl to one side made what would have been a smoking hole in his chest into a line of scorch through his armorweave cloak.

Dooku thought, What?

He threw himself spinning up and away from the two Jedi to land on the situation table, disengaging for a moment to recover his composure-that had been entirely too close-but by the time his boots touched down Kenobi was there to meet him, blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike; he threw a feint toward Kenobi's face, then dropped and spun in a reverse ankle-sweep-But not only did Kenobi easily overleap this attack, Dooku nearly lost his own foot to a slash from Skywalker who had again come out of nowhere and now carved through the table so that it collapsed under Dooku's weight and dumped the Sith Lord un-:eremoniously to the floor. This was not in the plan. Skywalker slammed his following strike down so hard that the shock of deflecting it buckled Dooku's elbows. Dooku threw himself into a backroll that brought him to his feet-and Kenobi's blade was there to meet his neck. Only a desperate whirling slash-block, coupled with a wheel kick that caught Kenobi on the thigh, bought him enough time to leap away again, and when he touched down-Skywalker was already there.

^Thanks man.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The inherent and damning flaw in that interpretation being that if Obi-Wan were capable of challenging or holding his own against Sidious in a strict fencing match... he would logically qualify as "competition" which flies in the face of George's declaration that says "you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor" in response to the humiliating deaths of Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar.

Not if Sidious can render Obi-Wan's abilities as a swordsman irrelevant by immediately overwhelming him with the force.

Originally posted by noitseuq
Not if Sidious can render Obi-Wan's abilities as a swordsman irrelevant by immediately overwhelming him with the force.

Which would still have no bearing on Obi-Wan being able to compete with Sidious as a duelist... and yet George says quite clearly that only Mace and Yoda can compete with the Emperor. Clearly, Obi-Wan doesn't qualify in any martial respect.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which would still have no bearing on Obi-Wan being able to compete with Sidious as a duelist... and yet George says quite clearly that only Mace and Yoda can compete with the Emperor. Clearly, Obi-Wan doesn't qualify in any martial respect.

Agreed. Kenobi is only slightly better then Fisto/Tiin/Kolar so he dies just as fast as them. Sidious is just to awesome.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Kenobi>Fisto in defence and Fisto>Kenobi in offensive. Which is why it balances out to Kenobi>Fisto by a slight edge.

But the point is that if you evaluate their strengths and weaknesses and analyse why Sidious was able to overwhelm Kit so easily, you could reasonably come to the conclusion that Obi-Wan is far more equipped in his ability to simply survive in a battle against Sidious, and while that may only delay the inevitable in a one-on-one scenario, in a team based battle he very well could pose a threat, with Sidious having two other opponents to consider, or rather he could very well enhance the threat that Dooku and Maul individually pose. A team as a unit poses a threat in its sheer numbers and what a good defensive unit of that team does is help maintain the strength of those numbers.



But you cannot say that speed was the only factor at play in Sidious destroying Kit in seconds, and that defensive technique didn't play a role at all.

The thing is Sidious already beat a team not much weaker then this team speedblizting 3 of the Jedi. If Windu whos about equal to Dooku wasint able to stop Tiin/Kolar(who together would beat Kenobi). So I dont think Dooku/Maul being there will help Kenobi at all when Sidious is so much faster.



Kenobi has the defensive edge above Fisto, sure. But Fisto has the speed edge. So it balances out to Kenobi>Fisto slightly. Sidious is just to fast. Before Kenobi would know what him a saber would be in his gut. I dont see how Kenobis defense would help him last longer then the other 3.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
The thing is Sidious already beat a team not much weaker then this team speedblizting 3 of the Jedi. If Windu whos about equal to Dooku wasint able to stop Tiin/Kolar(who together would beat Kenobi). So I dont think Dooku/Maul being there will help Kenobi at all when Sidious is so much faster.

There's only so much Windu can do when two of his teammates are not even able to react to Sidious's attacks. A team is in many ways as strong as its weakest defensive link, and the presence of multiple members of that team being completely unable to defend themselves is extremely damaging to the team's ability to maintain its numbers and strength as a team. You could point out that the team had greater numbers and the presence of Windu who's arguably the best swordsman listed but its inability to maintain its numbers due to its many weak links is a weakness this trio cannot be said to possess.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
George says quite clearly that only Mace and Yoda can compete with the Emperor.

Hmmm.

As far as I know, shatterpoint is a purely EU concept. So with that being the case, does that mean that Lucas believes Mace to be > Dooku in a fight?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which would still have no bearing on Obi-Wan being able to compete with Sidious as a duelist... and yet George says quite clearly that only Mace and Yoda can compete with the Emperor. Clearly, Obi-Wan doesn't qualify in any martial respect.

I still maintain that George would only be speaking with respect to any realistic scenario where Obi-Wan would be engaging Sidious, which would be a scenario where anything goes.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Hmmm.

As far as I know, shatterpoint is a purely EU concept. So with that being the case, does that mean that Lucas believes Mace to be > Dooku in a fight?

The only reason the line doesn't read "you have to be Yoda to compete with the Emperor" is because Sam Jackson demanded a glorious death scene.

I don't know. You can justify Dooku's exclusion a number of ways: Dooku wouldn't fight Sidious anyway because he was too busy being his b1tch; Dooku was already dead at the point in the movie that Mace and Sidious threw down, removing him from the list of potential candidates; Dooku isn't as tough as Mace.

Originally posted by noitseuq
I still maintain that George would only be speaking with respect to any realistic scenario where Obi-Wan would be engaging Sidious, which would be a scenario where anything goes.

Likewise, I maintain that Obi-Wan being able to compete with Sidious as a duelist would fly in the face of a declaration that says Obi-Wan can't compete with Sidious. Given the context and the fact that one can't not compete with one's enemy in a fight if one can in fact compete with one's enemy in a fight. It's mutually exclusive: Either Obi-Wan can compete or he can't. He can't, per George.

Lucas doesn't believe Dooku and Windu to be equals as Blax said.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Or Lucas doesn't believe Dooku and Windu to be equals.

I said that, punk.

I think the statement "only Yoda and Mace can compete with Sideous" precludes context like in-character motives or timeline issues, though the statement is vague enough to be interpreted in different ways.

Dunno. I always thought Mace was at least marginally superior of a fighter than Dooku, hence why that statement caught my eye.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
I think the statement "only Yoda and Mace can compete with Sideous" precludes context like in-character motives or timeline issues, though the statement is vague enough to be interpreted in different ways.

Dunno. I always thought Mace was at least marginally superior of a fighter than Dooku, hence why that statement caught my eye.

Janus and Nai certainly preferred such alternative interpretations. I haven't made my mind up, really. Assuming Mace's victory over Sidious was entirely legitimate and not a complete one-time fluke, he'd have to be Dooku's better.

On the other hand, it undermines every classic fictional trope sensibility I can fathom. Thematically, it's more appropriate to make the chain appear as follows: Sidious > Yoda > Dooku > Mace, especially since the PT is essentially three movies of Sith winning.

Well there's no evidence that Lucas sees Mace > Dooku.

All the evidence(from Lucas, the movies and from the EU) suggests Yoda and Sidious were the 2 most powerful force/lightsaber wielders (despite Mace beating Sidious) and that Mace and Dooku were the next most powerful (or possibly Skywalker).

Everyone assumes Mace > Dooku simply because Mace beat Sidious once, and Dooku lost to Skywalker. But that kind of logic didn't even work in ROTS. Just look Skywalker vs Dooku vs Kenobi vs Skywalker. How much of a headache has that always been to debate?

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Why not?.

Firstly I would point out that "the best" is an entirely relative term that could allow for an extremely vast range in hierarchical status that's basically impossible to determine, though one thing we can say for certain is that it clearly deals in a disparity of ability that at the very least extends from the ability to compete to Sidious to the inability to survive against him for a matter of seconds. Referring to them as "the best" if anything displays the liberties writers will take with the ambiguity of language rather than determining anything substantial about their placement. So I am largely disagreeing with the usage of that quote moreso than the message it was originally intended to convey.



I fail to be impressed. From what I understand practially any Jedi in animated or illustrated form would be easily capable of as much.



In what kind of scenario (I would imagine a largely inconsequential and indecisive sparring session), and are you suggesting that Mace Windu is anything but vastly superior as a lightsaber duelist?



Believed? And through a Jedi ability or a natural ability as an Iktotchi? I also fail to see how relevant this is.



Many people would question how skilled Quinlan truly was; he was an amnesiac that had only recently been going through his retraining and he's shown to struggle against basically anybody truly notable that he comes across, from Volfe Karkko to Sora Bulq (in both cases getting his ass thoroughly kicked for the majority of the engagements) until managing to pull off wins at the end of both bouts. You also neglect to mention that Quinlan Vos himself was holding back against Agen and actively fleeing the battle at every opportunity he could.



An Obi-Wan that was by comparison earlier in his growth as a Jedi, in a friendly sparring session. You also fail to mention he gets defeated by Asajj Ventress who herself wasn't far into her growth as a Force User, while facing disadvantages which haven't been established to be particularly significant. What can be interpreted as obvious hyperbole and while I won't be able to say too much on the matter until I've watched the show myself, from what I've been told Grievous has been significantly depowered by the show.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Likewise, I maintain that Obi-Wan being able to compete with Sidious as a duelist would fly in the face of a declaration that says Obi-Wan can't compete with Sidious. Given the context and the fact that one can't not compete with one's enemy in a fight if one can in fact compete with one's enemy in a fight. It's mutually exclusive: Either Obi-Wan can compete or he can't. He can't, per George.

He can't in a realistic engagement, he can in our limited scenarios. As I said, Sidious can be said to be able to render Obi-Wan's ability as a swordsman irrelevant, so what good would it be if he could compete in that one single area in the first place?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Likewise, I maintain that Obi-Wan being able to compete with Sidious as a duelist would fly in the face of a declaration that says Obi-Wan can't compete with Sidious. Given the context and the fact that one can't not compete with one's enemy in a fight if one can in fact compete with one's enemy in a fight. It's mutually exclusive: Either Obi-Wan can compete or he can't. He can't, per George.

The thing is what exactly does "compete" entail? Is it in all out combat or was he strictly speaking about lightsaber duels etc. TBH, I never took it to mean that Sidious could blitz everyone else but rather that no one else has a chance to defeat him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well there's no evidence that Lucas sees Mace > Dooku.

Except, you know, that very quote that says only Mace and Yoda can compete with Sidious.

Originally posted by noitseuq
He can't in a realistic engagement, he can in our limited scenarios. As I said, Sidious can be said to be able to render Obi-Wan's ability as a swordsman irrelevant, so what good would it be if he could compete in that one single area in the first place?

And as I said, if Obi-Wan's skill as a swordsman was sufficient to challenge Sidious, then he would by definition qualify as competition, which contradicts George's remark.

Originally posted by noitseuq
The thing is what exactly does "compete" entail? Is it in all out combat or was he strictly speaking about lightsaber duels etc. TBH, I never took it to mean that Sidious could blitz everyone else but rather that no one else has a chance to defeat him.

In lieu of specifics, I take it in its complete implications. If Obi-Wan were a comparable swordsman or even a challenging one, he'd have to be considered competition. Without qualification, the straightforward interpretation requires us to conclude Obi-Wan's fvcked whether or not Sidious decides to squash him with the Force or hack him to bits with a lightsaber.

Originally posted by noitseuq
while I won't be able to say too much on the matter until I've watched the show myself, from what I've been told Grievous has been significantly depowered by the show.

The fights here:

R-t9GlT9qmk

A slight embarrassment for the General tbh. Though I don't personally agree that he was dominating Grievous at all, from watching it now.

Originally posted by noitseuq
But the point is that if you evaluate their strengths and weaknesses and analyse why Sidious was able to overwhelm Kit so easily, you could reasonably come to the conclusion that Obi-Wan is far more equipped in his ability to simply survive in a battle against Sidious, and while that may only delay the inevitable in a one-on-one scenario, in a team based battle he very well could pose a threat, with Sidious having two other opponents to consider, or rather he could very well enhance the threat that Dooku and Maul individually pose. A team as a unit poses a threat in its sheer numbers and what a good defensive unit of that team does is help maintain the strength of those numbers.


Except that Kenobi hasn't shown reaction speed that is above Fisto's. Sidious speed is such that he downed the first 2 masters before either could react. Obi Wan's skill in defense is a non-factor when it comes to such speed.

Obi Wan may be more skilled in defense than Fisto, but not necessarily faster at it. If anything, Kenobi struggled with Grievous' speed more than Fisto did, and Tiin has better reaction feats than Kenobi.



Originally posted by noitseuq
But you cannot say that speed was the only factor at play in Sidious destroying Kit in seconds, and that defensive technique didn't play a role at all.


It was mainly speed, as Kit couldn't keep up much longer. It was Sidious' speed that forced Windu into the main office. What kept Windu alive before fully submerging in vapaad was his ability to react to Sidious speed, and yet Windu's style is not even focused around defense. If one's style in defense is the determining factor on who would last the longest against such force enhanced speed, then Kenobi would have a better shot against Sidious than Dooku.

Obi Wan's skill in his preferred form doesn't automatically make him faster at defending himself than Fisto any more than it would make him faster at defending himself than the likes of Windu, Dooku, or Yoda. The latter three have something both Kenobi and Fisto lack: the ability to react and to keep up with Sidious' speed, regardless of their preferred forms.


Originally posted by noitseuq
I still maintain that George would only be speaking with respect to any realistic scenario where Obi-Wan would be engaging Sidious, which would be a scenario where anything goes.


I don't see how you can apply Lucas' statement to anything else when it was in response to one thing: Sidious's saber ownage of the masters.


As for the thread, Sidious takes all three. Even if Maul and Kenobi are able to react to some of Sidious blows and can avoid being blitzed, this doesn't grant the team a guaranteed victory.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And as I said, if Obi-Wan's skill as a swordsman was sufficient to challenge Sidious, then he would by definition qualify as competition, which contradicts George's remark.

I, at least, don't think Kenobi is going to challenge Sidious. That said I don't think Sidious is going to be able to cut him down in a handful of strikes either.

Anyway, I'm left wondering why the quote applies strictly to sword combat. He says no one else can compete which seems to apply to total combat, not that can't compete in any single aspect of combat.

Originally posted by ares834
I, at least, don't think Kenobi is going to challenge Sidious. That said I don't think Sidious is going to be able to cut him down in a handful of strikes either.

Anyway, I'm left wondering why the quote applies strictly to sword combat. He says no one else can compete which seems to apply to total combat, not that can't compete in any single aspect of combat.

Because that interpretation requires us to qualify George's remarks and impose our own biases and preferences on what he meant. What I'm saying is in lieu of qualifiers, we should consider the term "compete" in its complete context.

If Obi-Wan can threaten, challenge, or acquit himself well against Sidious in a sword fight -- arguably the primary medium by which Force users challenge one another and certainly the context in which Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar died (the same context, coincidentally, in which George issued this statement) -- then he would by definition qualify as competition to the Dark Lord, which explicitly contradicts the remark that you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Except that Kenobi hasn't shown reaction speed that is above Fisto's. Sidious speed is such that he downed the first 2 masters before either could react. Obi Wan's skill in defense is a non-factor when it comes to such speed.

Sure but when you look at Fisto who seems to be the one Obi-Wan keeps getting compared with, he does manage to react to his attacks but simply gets overwhelmed very quickly, but he was able at the very least to respond to Sidious's attacks and it's entirely conceivable that with greater, more efficient defensive technique that he would have managed to survive.

People also seem to think that the default position is that Obi-Wan is immediately on the same level of those Jedi and that a greater argument needs to be made that Obi-Wan wouldn't be blitzed rather than whether or not Sidious would be able to do the same to Obi-Wan that he did to the Jedi, nevermind how Obi-Wan stylistically measures up defensively by comparison. In the same way that people might claim that Obi-Wan hasn't proven himself to be vastly superior to those Jedi, the fact remains that he hasn't proven himself to be quite as inadequate as them either. Sidious hasn't proven that he can do the same thing to Obi-Wan.



Having great defensive technique means that he wouldn't need to be faster at it. I'm not conviced that the G-Canon Grievous is the same entity as the T-Canon Grievous, and due to their styles Kit Fisto wouldn't go on the defensive in quite the same way as Obi-Wan would and as such would not have to fully rely on it as Obi-Wan practically does. Where Obi-Wan would defend against all that grievous would have to offer, Kit Fisto would ideally avoid all that Grievous had to offer by stifling his offense with an offense of his own.



I think I know what you're referring to and I'd like to see where you're going with this.



That certainly wouldn't have to mainly be about speed, as I said there would be multiple factors at play.



Your personal interpretation.



Better shot in what sense? Surviving against him or defeating him?

As far as being on the defensive is concerned, and assuming the skill levels are roughly the same, then yes, the style that is tailor made for defence would be the determining factor in who would be able to last the longest. Dooku would arguably not be entirely on the defensive in a lightsaber battle between the two and most would consider Dooku a far superior swordsman in any event, and if you pose some kind of threat offensively, then your offense would itself become its own form of defence (your opponent would need to focus more on his own defence, freezing up his offense). Kit Fisto essentially poses no offensive threat to speak of and as such would not freeze up Sidious's attacks in the same way a swordsman who did, would.



He doesn't have to be faster at defending himself when he's far more efficient at it.



As I said, I believe the circumstances of the battle were entirely incidental to Lucas's declaration in much the same was as the cologne they were wearing would have been. It was an element at play in what Lucas was referring to but it was by no means fundamental to his point. It simply makes more sense that Lucas was referring to the full umbrella of what a fight might entail, and that this particular one happened to be largely fought with lightsabers.

The best meaning ie some of the greatest fighters in the whole history of the Jedi order ie top 50. Fisto/Tiin/Kolar are defenilty in the top 20 strongest Jedi of all time.



Not from I've seen. And throwing a battle droid telekinetically with his mind is extremely impressive.

Also Tiin moved his lightsaber so fast he appeared to be in 3places at once. Thats a incredible feat.



Pretty sure his foresight came from his skills more then his race. But the Ikotchi do posses this as a natural ability, but I believe Tiin honed his more.



It is impressive seeing as how both would be curbing/holding back there powers. Windu was able to drive of Ventress in a few seconds(1panel in the comic) and he was tired from running all the way back from the area were he and Bulq engaged to the battlefield. Tiin although clearly not as good of a duelist as Windu is capable of holding his own. I consider that a great feat.



Vos is not the best duelist but it is a incredible feat tooling him in 2slashes as Kolar has done. Only other fighters to tool him that bad are Windu/Dooku.

And I would strongly disagree with that. Kolar himself stated he did not wish to harm Vos and had to bring Vos back into questioning at coruscant. Vos refused then Kolar brought him down with a single slash then demanded he yeild. Vos ran away because he was far weaker, not because he was holding back(I can post scans if you'd like)

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Agen%20Kolar/2696236-new_picture__2__zps3fdb93a8.jpg

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Agen%20Kolar/2696237-new_picture__3__zpsd8889f9d.jpg

the only one holding back there was Agen Kolar.



Ventress only beat Fisto because she observed his fighting style before hand and Fisto was tired from fighting the droid and had fought many other fighters. Kenobi in the same state fought very well vs Ventress and Kenobi is far under Fisto at this point. So I see no reason why in a fair 1v1 with no circumstantieal advantge Fisto would lose to Ventress.

And yes he is not as powerful as he once was. But he's no push over having fought well against Obi Wan Kenobi/Asajj Ventress and beating Eeth Koth/Ashoka Tano/Nahddar Vebb.

Fistos tooling of GG shows a incredible amount of skill on his part.

Originally posted by ares834
Except, you know, that very quote that says only Mace and Yoda can compete with Sidious.

Dooku was dead. Dooku wasn't a Jedi. The quote was a response to which "Jedi" Mace should have taken with him to take on the Emperor. It would have made no sense to bring Dooku up in that quote. Just like it would have made no sense to bring up OT Vader, who has been confirmed by Lucas as being 80% as powerful as Sidious.

Besides which going strictly by the movies, Dooku did already compete against Sidious's equal- Yoda. Don't bother telling me about Yoda holding back and all, because I'm just talking here strictly per what the films show and Lucas's statements.

Originally posted by The_Tempest


In lieu of specifics, I take it in its complete implications. If Obi-Wan were a comparable swordsman or even a challenging one, he'd have to be considered competition. Without qualification, the straightforward interpretation requires us to conclude Obi-Wan's fvcked whether or not Sidious decides to squash him with the Force or hack him to bits with a lightsaber.

So do you also believe ROTS Anakin would get Saber Blitzed by Sidious simply because he isn't Mace or Yoda?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because that interpretation requires us to qualify George's remarks and impose our own biases and preferences on what he meant. What I'm saying is in lieu of qualifiers, we should consider the term "compete" in its complete context.

If Obi-Wan can threaten, challenge, or acquit himself well against Sidious in a sword fight -- arguably the primary medium by which Force users challenge one another and certainly the context in which Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar died (the same context, coincidentally, in which George issued this statement) -- then he would by definition qualify as competition to the Dark Lord, which explicitly contradicts the remark that you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor.

I just think watching the film it would have been retarded for Lucas to bring up Kenobi in that quote after what happened to him against Dooku (with Skywalker on his side). When he's THAT outmatched on the Force even by Dooku, then his Lightsaber skills no matter how great would mean squat to Sidious. (And the fact is his Lightsaber skills are not close to Sidious's anyway).


Originally posted by noitseuq
and while I won't be able to say too much on the matter until I've watched the show myself, from what I've been told Grievous has been significantly depowered by the show.

Not really. Kenobi's best performance against him is still in ROTS. In fact that's the best Saber performance against Grievous period.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Though I don't personally agree that he was dominating Grievous at all, from watching it now.



As Ares has always pointed out, he never actually beat the general despite fighting him one on one for a significant length of time.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Again, not unless Obi Wan can block Sidious strikes any better than Fisto can.

Which he most likely can, assuming what people are which is that Obi-Wan is at the very least somewhat close to Kit in ability, and that his style is designed for defence. Obi-Wan has the better defensive feats against overwhelming speed, namely his performance against Grievous where he's shown to be directly defending against an onslought of attacks approaching 20 strikes per second, and Kit alone out of the two of them has proven such an utter inability to defend against Sidious.

There also seems to be this idea that Kit is substantially quicker than Obi-Wan, based on what appear to be highly hyperbolic statements from a single source, when Kenobi himself as Nephthys has pointed out seems to have received such treatment in other sources, as well as based upon how the two seemed to compare much earlier in Obi-Wan's career when he was still pretty inexperienced and Kit Fisto had already been a member of the council for years.

Obi-Wan effectively has proven far more when it comes to defending himself against an opponent with an overwhelming speed advantage, Kit Fisto has proven far more when it comes to failing to defend himself against an opponent with an overwhelming speed advantage, and Obi-Wan utilises the defensive style that was designed to compensate against physically superior opponents with efficient technique.



Or if you want to be more exact, which would logically require that he have certain attributes that lend itself well to combat against multiple opponents from both a defensive and offensive standpoint that wouldn't necessarily translate into combat against a single individual (assuming it is indeed specialized for combat against multiple opponents), such as careful positioning and movement aimed to keep his opponents from successfully mounting a well coordinated attack and effectively functioning as a team in any capacity, keeping them seperated and off balance and using angles that allow him to efficiently deal with each unit of the team individually. I think you'll find it difficult to make a case that it's a matter of the form being so advanced that it's even capable of being used against multiple enemies, when it's considered the simplest form and the first one that padawan learners train in that has never been documented to be particularly impressive or desirable at higher levels in the source material.



It doesn't have to be. His defence against Grievous in the RotS novel illustrates exactly how that is the case, where he uses economy of movement and careful positioning to meet the attacks of his much faster opponent.



The form that specializes in defence that he's used to great effect in defending against far more physically impressive combatants like Grievous and Anakin.



At a certain point, yes, but you haven't established that Sidious is that much faster than Obi-Wan. Kit Fisto himself was not entirely blitzed by Sidious, exchanges were made and while he was quickly overwhelmed there was ample opportunity for better defensive measures to be taken that a better defensive swordsman may well have.

I also find Sidious being a master of all seven forms, not to mention his present level of skill and recent experience at the time of the battle, highly questionable, and you have in no way established that Soresu has any holes in its defence that would be negated by any other form in the first place.



The advantage of one more Jedi but the disadvantage of all but one of those Jedi being able to survive against Sidious for more than a few seconds. You cannot say the same thing about this team. Obviously Sidious is extremely fast and it was through both his speed and positioning himself away from the other attackers that enabled him to deal with them before the others could effectively engage him.



Except that speed isn't the be all and end all of lightsaber duelling unless you assume Obi-Wan possesses the same inadequacies as the other two Jedi in being completely unable to respond to his attacks.



I'll again remind you that this team has not proven itself to have such weak defensive links as the likes of those three Jedi and are proven to be of a far higher calibre in this situation.



He defended them however he could whether it was through evasion or directly meeting his attacks and I'm not sure why that's relevant. Speculation based on questionable interpretation of how duelling works and arguably hyperbolic descriptions.



Prove it.



Prove it.



I fail to see why tertiary information based on the subjective interpretations of writers should be blindly accepted as canon.

Not that they even establish that it was entirely based on speed that Sidious was forcing Mace back and that Mace was able to defend himself, which was your claim.



Again, your personal interpretation.



You have not managed to establish that the disparity in speed between Sidious and Obi-Wan is to such an extent that his defensive technique becomes irrelevant, you haven't even established as much for Kit and Sidious given that it was after multiple engagements that he struck him down; it's entirely possible that with a more efficient and technically proficient defense that Kit fisto might have lasted longer and this is certainly something that Obi-Wan can be suggested to possess.

I wouldn't suggest that it would be so simple that he would either be fully on the offensive or the defensive but rather that a duel between the two would potentially see numerous shifts in momentum and defense seamlessly blended with offence as dictated by the moment. My point was that Soresu alone places an emphasis on going immediately on the defensive, Makashi has no such emphasis and while it's possible to be forced on the offensive and for the attacker to have no regard for his opponent's own offense you have not at all established that this would be the case here and while you point out that Sidious is the physically more powerful swordsmen, many would agree that Dooku is the superior technician and utilises the form designed specifically for lightsaber dueling.

As I stated it's not so simple when one opponent is significantly superior to another which Dooku arguably is in this case, and that Dooku could potentially last longer by stifling Sidious's offense with the threat of his own.





Your opinion. You have not effectively established that such a speed disparity exists and are simply assuming that Obi-Wan possesses the same inadequacies that Saesee Tinn and Agen Kolar possessed.



The difference is that my argument does not rely on drawing a particular conclusion from that quote and remains just as valid if it isn't used at all. By presenting it as ambiguous all that it has the effect of is detracting from your argument, and if you wish to argue the more likely interpretation mine has far more logical backing. As I said to Gideon Lucas's statement was in reference to the entire engagement that consisted of the lightsaber battle as well as Mace Windu defending against Sidious' force powers and was speaking with regards to a practical, realistic scenario where there would be no such constraints, regardless of whether it resembled such a scenario. If Sidious can render Obi-Wan's ability as a swordsman irrelevant with his Force powers then it's no more relevant to him being competetive against Sidious in a real scenario than any other meaningless attribute that wouldn't be of significance in a battle between the two, from how good they are in sports to who's the better pick up artist. It simply makes no sense to interpret that statement with such constraints that would not realistically be present, and it is not taking the quote out of context to point out that the shape that the battle took was almost definitely entirely incidental to the terms of that battle.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not really. Kenobi's best performance against him is still in ROTS. In fact that's the best Saber performance against Grievous period.

It's entirely possible that they were both depowered, and as such both no longer as great relative to others such as Jedi like Kit Fisto.

I'd have to watch the show myself but the impression I get is that he's no longer portrayed to be particularly formidable.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
The best meaning ie some of the greatest fighters in the whole history of the Jedi order ie top 50. Fisto/Tiin/Kolar are defenilty in the top 20 strongest Jedi of all time.

Could be top 20, could be top 100, could be top 1000, could be top 1000000, we simply have no way of knowing what the writer had in mind but what we can say, as I pointed out, is that it clearly refers to a group with such a vaste range of skill levels that both Yoda and Saesee Tinn belong to it. It's basically meaningless with respect to how we would commonly refer to someone or a group as being among "the best".



Your opinion.



Arguable hyperbole and are you sure you're not mixing up your Jedi?



Sure but it's an ultimately meaningless feat.



But you cannot be sure of the extent to which they were holding back their powers and we don't know the exact nature of the sparring battle, and it's ultimately meaningless as we know from how they both perform in a real combat situation that they're on entirely different levels.



A good performance against what is ultimately not an elite Jedi. Volfe Karkko and Sota Bulq were destroying him just as easily for the most part but as with all those fights he managed to tap into something at the end to get the victory, whether it was a certain clarity with the Force or just exploiting the complacency of his opponents. Quinlan Vos is quite simply just not very good.



Quinlan Vos would have also most likely been holding back, he hadn't truly fallen to the darkside and I'll admit I was going off of memory, nd it might be helpful if you posted the rest of the encounter but I had remembered him attempting to flee at every opportunity.



Ventress had observed his hand to hand technique and used it to ascertain what his lightsaber form would be, I find that to be a pretty weak advantage as any lightsaber practitioner should be able to determine their opponent's style immediately and it's not as if she would have had any real opportunity to make specific preperations against that style beforehand in the timeframe that she logically wouldn't have already covered. The book even suggesting that was a pretty weak plot point to be honest.

To what extent was Fisto fatigued?



He isn't portrayed to be the juggernaut that he once was and he certainly isn't portrayed as approaching the formidability he possesses in the RotS novelisation which is the most comprehensive depiction of that duel.

Originally posted by noitseuq
It's entirely possible that they were both depowered, and as such both no longer as great relative to others such as Jedi like Kit Fisto.

I'd have to watch the show myself but the impression I get is that he's no longer portrayed to be particularly formidable.

He's not actually lost to anyone in a Saber duel except for Ventress. And that was on Dathomir, which is strong in the dark side.

He has however been put down/defeated by Telekinetic attacks. But hey Kenobi sent him flying like 50 feet and disarmed him of his remaining weapons with a Force Push in ROTS.

So in comparison to ROTS he's not been depowered. If you think Kenobi's been depowered, then you need to watch the episode "Revival." That episode probably showed his best Saber feat to date.

He also embarrassed Ventress in TCW movie in a pure Saber duel, which had her switching weapons from Jar Kai, to a Saber Staff. But she simply could not defeat him.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Fisto whirls his blade fast enough that its surrounding blurs seemingly create a ''cyclone'' of light. Neither Kenobi nor Maul has ever fought that fast.

To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light. Resistant to the energy outpourings of a lightsaber, the phrik alloy staffs were potent weapons, but like any weapon they needed to find their target, and Kit simply wasn't allowing that.

-Labyrinth of Evil That's a metaphor. And therefore merely an exaggeration of the real thing. If you've ever taken English at school, you should know this.

Lol.

It should be noted that when the 3jedi are stated to be amongest the greatest, there mentoined in the same sentence as Windu. Meaning from MY POV top 20-30 is pretty obvious.



You dont find it impressive?. Then what is a impressive feat to you?.



Nah.

http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/18/42/54/37/images11.jpg

Fisto did the same thing, though.



Tiin would be holding back aswell. So would Windu. So the feat is impressive as both would be holding back. Again I cant prove a negative on who held back more. From whats been shown they both held back.

A good performance against what is ultimately not an elite Jedi. Volfe Karkko and Sota Bulq were destroying him just as easily for the most part but as with all those fights he managed to tap into something at the end to get the victory, whether it was a certain clarity with the Force or just exploiting the complacency of his opponents. Quinlan Vos is quite simply just not very good.

Not as easy as Kolar. Kolar had him in down in 1panel. Fact remains only Windu and Dooku have done that well.

And sure!.

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Agen%20Kolar/2696234-new_picture__0__zpsae1684f9.jpg

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Agen%20Kolar/2696235-new_picture__1__zpse3d07631.jpg

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Agen%20Kolar/2696236-new_picture__2__zps3fdb93a8.jpg

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Agen%20Kolar/2696237-new_picture__3__zpsd8889f9d.jpg

The only one holding back was Kolar.



He hadint. But he was trying to knock Kolar down as shown above/defeat him "we should not be enemies, but it is too late for anything else!"



Ventress had studied Kits moves and he was injured from fighting the droid, I believe. He was injured though and tired. And Kenobi did mad well Vs Ventress well tired from fighting enemies aswell and Fisto>Kenobi at that point, so yeah.



Honestly I agree with this. HOWEVER with new information out as much as I dislike it, I have no choice but to agree with it and abid by it.

Originally posted by noitseuq
Obi-Wan has the better defensive feats against overwhelming speed, namely his performance against Grievous where he's shown to be directly defending against an onslought of attacks approaching 20 strikes per second, and Kit alone out of the two of them has proven such an utter inability to defend against Sidious.


Grievous is not Sidious. And Kit has beat the same Grievous that Obi Wan has beat. And while you can say that Kit beat him through a more offensive approach whereas Obi Wan beat him through a more defensive one, it would suggest that Kit is faster, more aggressive, and more skilled than Grievous, considering he forced Grievous on the defensive. So Obi Wan defending against Grievous speed is irrelevant when Sidious has easily slaughtered someone who is faster and more a skilled than the general. Defending against Grievous speed doesn't mean he can defend against Sidious's speed, and it certainly doesn't mean he can react faster than Fisto.



Originally posted by noitseuq
There also seems to be this idea that Kit is substantially quicker than Obi-Wan, based on what appear to be highly hyperbolic statements from a single source, as well as based upon how the two seemed to compare much earlier in Obi-Wan's career when he was still pretty inexperienced


Nope, I base my opinion on their performances against Grievous. All throughout TCW, Obi wan was either forced to flee or forced on the defensive by Grievous's speed even when he finally defeated him in ROTS, whereas Kit in turn was able to force Grievous on the defensive during his very first try.


And what do you mean Kenobi was inexperienced in CD? He had already been a knight for years by this point (hell, even his own padawan was close to becoming a knight by this point), and according to Obi Wan's own musings Kit seemed to come off as the faster force user. I seriously doubt Kenobi dramatically increased in speed in the span of, what, three years. He certainly hasn't shown he became faster than Kit based on his consistent struggling against Grievous all throughout TCW series.



Originally posted by noitseuq
Or if you want to be more exact, which would logically require that he have certain attributes that lend itself well to combat against multiple opponents from both a defensive and offensive standpoint that wouldn't necessarily translate into combat against a single individual (assuming it is indeed specialized for combat against multiple opponents), such as careful positioning and movement aimed to keep his opponents from successfully mounting a well coordinated attack and effectively functioning as a team in any capacity, keeping them seperated and off balance and using angles that allow him to efficiently deal with each unit of the team individually. I think you'll find it difficult to make a case that it's a matter of the form being so advanced that it's even capable of being used against multiple enemies, when it's considered the simplest form and the first one that padawan learners train in that has never been documented to be particularly impressive or desirable at higher levels in the source material.


Sounds like Kit's form would require an awful lot of coordination for it to be one of the most simplest forms. That's why I don't put too much emphasis on forms because sometimes the authors who describe them do not make any sense of them. They are just writers, not swordsmen.

For example, according to Dooku, his form, Makashi, relies more on foot work and precision that "needless acrobats." But Ventress, who uses the same form, constantly uses acrobats throughout her fights, so is she really using Makashi or not? lol


That's why I rather go by feats. And feat-wise, Kenobi hasn't done anything to suggest that his defensive speed is greater than that of Kit's, which would be the issue when facing an opponent as fast as Sidious, and he's also done absolutely nothing to indicate that his defensive speed can match Sidious's striking speed for very long.



Originally posted by noitseuq
The form that specializes in defence that he's used to great effect in defending against far more physically impressive combatants like Grievous and Anakin.


Far more physically impressive than who, Kit? Anakin is more physically impressive than Kit, I'd agree there, but Grievous definitely isn't considering that he was the one being forced on the defensive by Kit's own physicality. But non of that is irrelevant here any way, because neither Grievous nor Anakin are as physically impressive as Sidious.



Originally posted by noitseuq
you haven't established that Sidious is that much faster than Obi-Wan. Kit Fisto himself was not entirely blitzed by Sidious, exchanges were made and while he was quickly overwhelmed there was ample opportunity for better defensive measures to be taken that a better defensive swordsman may well have.



I have. You haven't established that that Obi Wan can defend against Sidious attacks for very long. And yes Kit blocked a couple of blows from Sidious, who was simultaneously crossing blades with Windu, before being quickly overwhelmed.

So what better defensive measures can be taken when one's speed is just not up to par? Explain. I mean, it sounds good, but it proves nothing.



Originally posted by noitseuq
you have in no way established that Soresu has any holes in its defence that would be negated by any other form in the first place.


Other than his speed being sufficient to penetrate a hole in soresu that is being utilized by someone who is far inferior to him in speed, there is a source that says djem so is an ideal form for penetrating Soresu's weakness assuming both users are equal in skill and speed, and in this case, Sidious overshadow's Kenobi in both by a considerable margin. I'll find the source later. It was posted by Galan007.



Originally posted by noitseuq
The advantage of one more Jedi but the disadvantage of all but one of those Jedi being able to survive against Sidious for more than a few seconds. You cannot say the same thing about this team. Obviously Sidious is extremely fast and it was through both his speed and positioning himself away from the other attackers that enabled him to deal with them before the others could effectively engage him.



And he can't do the same to this team?

BTW, both Kit and Windu were close enough to land a strike on Sidious while he was focused on Kolar and Tiin.



Originally posted by noitseuq
I'll again remind you that this team has not proven itself to have such weak defensive links as the likes of those three Jedi and are proven to be of a far higher calibre in this situation.


Higher Calibre, how?


If Sidious targets Obi Wan first, it should take Sidious a couple of blows to down him if Sidious attacks with his full fury, and I'm not seeing how Dooku or Maul can prevent this if Windu and Kit couldn't prevent Sidious from downing two (not one) sabermasters. Unless you can prove that Obi Wan's reaction speed is far beyond the two masters, and greater than both Windu and Fisto's offensive speed.




Originally posted by noitseuq
Prove it.


I thought you knew what I was talking about?



"Each Jedi connects to the Force in his or her own way, and Tiin's Force abilities allowed him to focus his thoughts to control his starfighter even while traveling through hyperspace. While flying at lightspeed, Tiin had no need of a nav computer. He increased the Sharp Spiral's performance by taking hyperspace shortcuts and flying dangerously close to mass shadows."(The New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels)

While I do consider this to be a bit over the top, I'm not throwing out the fact that Tiin is meant to have exceptional reaction speed, that I also believe Obi Wan notes that is greater than his, so I'm not going to assume Obi Wan's reaction speed is so far ahead of Tiin's when he has done nothing to show for it. And if Obi Wan is able to last a great deal longer than Tiin, despite the fact that Palpatine took out Kolar and then Tiin both before Tiin was able to react, then that would suggest that Obi Wan is miles ahead of Tiin in reaction speed, which, as I said, he has shown nothing to prove it.



Originally posted by noitseuq
Prove it.


I have. You're just ignoring it. Floyd Mayweather, a professional boxer who is good at defense, wouldn't be able to dodge a bullet any better than I would. His skill in defense vs mine would be irrelevant when it comes to such speed, just as Obi Wan's skill in defense vs the masters would be irrelevant.

Now can you prove that Obi Wan has what it takes to last long against someone who is far faster than him and the people whose speed he has struggled with before? Sorry but struggling against Grievous' speed doesn't help your argument, considering Sidious downed someone who is even faster than Grievous in a couple of blows, while simultaneously crossing blades with Windu.



Originally posted by noitseuq
I fail to see why tertiary information based on the subjective interpretations of writers should be blindly accepted as canon.


I fail to see why it shouldn't, especially when it describes what we see in the film basically. I mean you willingly place a no limits fallacy on Kenobi just because he is labeled by writer as a "master of soresu."

Originally posted by noitseuq
Not that they even establish that it was entirely based on speed that Sidious was forcing Mace back and that Mace was able to defend himself, which was your claim.


Speed and skill. Of course it's not speed alone. It would take skill as well, if that's what you mean. It's not like Sidious was just swinging his blade really fast in sloppy sequences.

And no, my claim was that Windu was forced on the defensive, and defended himself better than what Obi Wan would manage, despite his preferred form not being as suitable for defense as Kenobi's. And this is because Windu is a lot faster at reacting. You claimed that it wouldn't be a matter of how fast Kenobi can react, but a matter of his preferred form being more suitable for defense. So if you don't believe that Sidious striking speed is beyond that of Kenobi's defensive speed, then that would suggest that you believe Obi Wan would do better than Windu at defending himself, since, according to you, it wouldn't be a matter of speed, but more a matter of which form is suitable for defense. And I don't buy that. If Kenobi's speed is not up to par, then he doesn't stand a chance.

Stop placing a no limits fallacy on Kenobi's defensive speed just because he is a master of soresu. His skill in defense would only be irrelevant if he is fighting someone in his speed class.



Originally posted by noitseuq
Again, your personal interpretation.


No, the movies portrayal. Tell me how Windu wasn't at a huge advantage. Tell me, if Windu was truly an equal to Sidious in speed, plus being a master of one of the most aggressive forms, how he, with the aid of Kit, was unable to land a hit on Sidious before Sidious was able to down Kolar and Tiin. Explain how Windu could not gain any kind of advantage against Sidious, and why he was taken out of his element as an offensive fighter.



Originally posted by noitseuq
As I stated it's not so simple when one opponent is significantly superior to another which Dooku arguably is in this case, and that Dooku could potentially last longer by stifling Sidious's offense with the threat of his own.


Dooku wouldn't be any more of a threat than Windu was at the beginning of his and Palpatine's duel. Dooku's offense wouldn't come to play when it comes to someone who is far stronger, more skilled, a lot more aggressive and faster than he is. He would be forced on the defensive. If he does try to take an offensive approach, he would risk being slashed or thrown off balance by leaving an opening in his defense.


And regarding Lucas statement:
I don't see how Lucas's statement is being taken out of context. Lucas wasn't discussing Sidious's superiority in overall combat. His statement had more to do with the b-teams inability to threaten Sidious in their fight with him, and their fight with Sidious didn't involve the use of offensive force powers, it was a saber match, in which they failed to provide any type of threat to Sidious, and Lucas's reason for this was: "you have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete."

Again, he wasn't discussing Sidious' overall ability, he was responding to why the B-team were not a threat to him in their saber duel with him. The context of Lucas's statement revolved around their particular duel, not Sidious superiority in an all out fight.

Originally posted by noitseuq
Not that they even establish that it was entirely based on speed that Sidious was forcing Mace back and that Mace was able to defend himself, which was your claim.


Speed and skill. Of course wasn't speed alone. It would take skill as well, if that's what you mean. It's not like Sidious was just swinging his blade really fast in sloppy sequences.

And no, my claim was that Windu was forced on the defensive, and defended himself better than what Obi Wan would manage, despite his preferred form not being as suitable for defense as Kenobi's. And this is because Windu is a lot faster at reacting. You claimed that it wouldn't be a matter of how fast Kenobi can react, but a matter of his preferred form being more suitable for defense. So if you don't believe that Sidious striking speed is beyond that of Kenobi's defensive speed, then that would suggest that you believe Obi Wan would do better than Windu at defending himself, since, according to you, it wouldn't be a matter of speed, but more a matter of which form is suitable for defense. And I don't buy that. If Kenobi's speed is not up to par, then he doesn't stand a chance.

Stop placing a no limits fallacy on Kenobi's defensive speed just because he is a master of soresu. His skill in defense would only be irrelevant if he is fighting someone in his speed class.



Originally posted by noitseuq
Again, your personal interpretation.


No, the movies portrayal. Tell me how Windu wasn't at a huge advantage. Tell me, if Windu was truly an equal to Sidious in speed, plus being a master of one of the most aggressive forms, how he, with the aid of Kit, was unable to land a hit on Sidious before Sidious was able to down Kolar and Tiin. Explain how Windu could not gain any kind of advantage against Sidious, and why he was taken out of his element as an offensive fighter.



Originally posted by noitseuq
As I stated it's not so simple when one opponent is significantly superior to another which Dooku arguably is in this case, and that Dooku could potentially last longer by stifling Sidious's offense with the threat of his own.


Dooku wouldn't be any more of a threat than Windu was at the beginning of his and Palpatine's duel. Dooku's offense wouldn't come to play when it comes to someone who is far stronger, more skilled, a lot more aggressive and faster than he is. He would be forced on the defensive. If he does try to take an offensive approach, he would risk being slashed or thrown off balance by leaving an opening in his defense.


And regarding Lucas statement:
I don't see how Lucas's statement is being taken out of context. Lucas wasn't discussing Sidious's superiority in overall combat. His statement had more to do with the b-teams inability to threaten Sidious in their fight with him, and their fight with Sidious didn't involve the use of offensive force powers, it was a saber match, in which they failed to provide any type of threat to Sidious, and Lucas's reason for this was: "you have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete."

Again, he wasn't discussing Sidious' overall ability, he was responding to why the B-team were not a threat to him in their saber duel with him. The context of Lucas's statement revolved around their particular duel, not Sidious superiority in an all out fight.

Sure he's not but the point I'm making is that in the absence of a direct comparison in defensive ability between Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan's defensive showing against Grievous is a high showing that Kit Fisto has yet to match, in the same way that Kit Fisto's defensive display against Sidious is a low showing that Obi-Wan cannot be said to have sunk to. You cannot exactly quantify the two but you seem to be basing assumptions on the idea that you can. Due to what appears to be bias and using Sidious as a focal point in your argument you seem to think the default position should be to treat the two the same, to question what Obi-Wan has definitively proven that makes him so different from Kit and what does he have to offer Sidious that Kit does not, when I'm sure if you were going by a more holistic and impartial examination of the evidence you would see that the two showings simply act to strongly suggest that Obi-Wan is the superior defensive swordsman, a claim that's corroborated by other evidence, and if you changed your perspective I'm sure the fact that Obi-Wan and Kit Fisto are two entirely different entities would be more clearly considered when phrasing your argument. You've based the idea that Obi-Wan is the same defensive entity as Kit (when faced against Sidious) on numerous assumptions that we'll go over shortly and you haven't truly addressed the evidence that strongly suggests that Obi-Wan is far better equipped defensively than Kit is.



Regarding comparisons between the TCW cartoon and the movies/rest of the EU, as I said earlier I can't personally be certain until I've watched it for myself (and we can leave it at that for now) but from what little I've seen and what I've heard from other people, as I said I get the impression it opts for the cartoonish and the wondrous over realism and a thoughtful consideration of canon; it's taking me pretty long to get through the cartoon myself but perhaps what may potentially be a more honest approach from you or some genuine feedback from somebody else could shed more light on the matter. Until then we can leave it that, but I will remind you that I am personally not convinced that valid comparisons between Kit and Obi-Wan based on their fights against Grievous from such contrasting sources can be made, and I'm not sure you are either.



Assuming Kit Fisto was displaying superiority over Grievous (nevermind whether or not he really was forcing Grievous on the defensive, whether forcing an opponent on the defensive with respect to their styles denotes superiority particularly with respect to the shifts in momentum of a battle, or whether you may be basing this on other aspects of their fight), you cannot attribute that superiority to anything other than the entire accumulation of their respective, relevant skills (what is true for the whole is not neccessarily true for its parts) based on the display of superiority alone and at best it might suggest that's he's faster, or that he's more skilled, but it certainly doesn't definitively establish it. Its a direct showing of how all of their respective, relevant skills compare, not individual elements that make up their overall skill.



Sure it doesn't but the point is that it's a fine showing of defensive ability that would suggest he wouldn't be as defensively inadequate as someone without such a showing. Obviously you have to draw a line somewhere when regarding who exactly Sidious can easily overwhelm with a lightsaber and who he cannot (we can say this may lie somewhere between Kit Fisto and Mace Windu) but I think a different approach should be taken than the one you are taking with these comparisons, which rely on assumptions based on direct comparisons between wildly disparate sources, and how individual elements of overall ability are reflected in contests of overall ability and how they stylistically measure in different scenarios.



Inexperienced by comparison. He was still much earlier in his growth than Kit had been, and would have progressed by a greater proportion, assuming similar learning rates. You may undermine those three years but I don't believe it would be a stretch to say that he saw more action in that war than he had in his entire earlier career as a Jedi and while his training wouldn't have likely changed all that much he would have gained drastically more experience. Anakin certainly improved drastically during that time and I'm not saying that Obi-Wan would have progressed at such a great rate but at the same time I don't think you can just be so quick to undermine the improvements three years of war experience would bring.



I admit that there may be certain inconsistencies (wasn't aware Ventress used Makashi btw), and certainly there are times when a person's form may be a more periphery element of that character, but I don't think that justifies ignoring the forms entirely, particularly given how big a role Soresu is depicted as being in Obi-Wan's style and his strengths in the EU. Aside from Mace Windu (and I guess you could argue the other Vaapad users to a smaller extent) and maybe Dooku and Yoda, there isn't a character who's form has been as prevalently established as Obi-Wan's, and there's certainly no character who's style as a fighter is so strongly identified by it.

Obi-Wan's use of the form and his ability with it has been detailed to such an extent in the EU that I think we can say it acts as a very good indication of his personal ability and approach to fighting.



Again, if you examine the whole (defensive ability) rather than an indvidual element of the whole (defensive speed) you'll have a stronger comparison. Obi-Wan's style works in a way that his speed doesn't have to be anywhere near as great as his opponent's, and by the same token Sidious has not demonstrated the ability to overwhelm a swordsman of Obi-Wan's defensive calibre.



Post it now pls. It certainly seems to contradict the notion of a Soresu user being theoretically invincible in combat as numerous reference guides assert.

Superior performances and higher up in the hierarchy in the wider, more credible realms of canon, and Obi-Wan certainly has the greater backing in the context of defense.



Different scenarios, they will likely be positioned differently, higher calibre of opponent for the most part, and you have not established that Obi-Wan will be so succeptible. I am in no way more obligated to prove that Obi-Wan has greater reaction speed than you are to prove that he doesn't (not being able or not having to prove a negative is a myth, you can phrase anything to sound like a negative, and in this case I can just as easily ask you to prove that the two Jedis' reaction speed was as good or anywhere near as good as Obi-Wan's); both assertions remain unproven but what I am directly challenging is the assumption that he can.

Obi-Wan's reaction speed doesn't necessarily have to be vastly superior to Agen's and Saesee's, it simply needs to be adequate to at least respond to Sidious's attacks as Kit and Mace's was. Kit was let down by a combination of factors that would have included an area that on paper Obi-Wan is far superior to him in.



Which is most likely an ability that only manifests itself in that one scenario or clearly not compatible with existing canon, otherwise if you assume it's reflective of his reflexes in combat you have to reconcile that information with what appears to be him being thoroughly outperformed by both Mace Windu and Kit Fisto in that regard, which would suggest that it's utterly ordinary at the top levels while also removing anything unique about the ability to Saesee, so it's fundamentally meaningless however you look at it and would suggest that upper tier Jedi were ordinarily capable of godly feats of reaction speed that is clearly contradicted in wider canon.



I understand the reasoning, you just have yet to prove that Sidious is the gun to Obi-Wan's Floyd Mayweather.



It describes one of many interpretations one could draw from the films. We shouldn't blindly accept it because the primary elements alone cannot be said to be perfectly compatible with one another; there are numerous inconsistencies with facts and figures and events and it simply doesn't make sense to assume that tertiary elements of the source material which are even less significant will fit into a cohesive whole. There are numerous descriptions of that battle in the reference guides and without even looking at them I already know there will be precise differences in how they are presented and those tertiary elements are not a cooperative effort to chronicle a shared vision, they are not what the reference material was intended to describe, but rather the writer's own interpetation that he is sharing to add flavour to the text.



I'm not saying there's no chance in hell that Sidious couldn't do the same to Obi-Wan but that simply I don't believe that's what the evidence points to and that we shouldn't ignore what Obi-Wan's mastery of Soresu would suggest about his greater on paper capability to survive against an attack from Sidious.



You can describe what they were doing in many different ways, but as far as how it pertains to the point George Lucas was making and the scenario we were presented with, what we were seeing was a fight, plain and simple, and a lightsaber duel is the particular shape that fight took. Jedi and Sith don't deal with such constraints when they fight with each other, George Lucas was making an observation from the context of how elements proceeded in the story that the same Jedi and Sith inhabit. Your interpretation simply doesn't make sense.

Here you go Neb, sorry for forgetting.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/photo_zpsdddd9efd.jpg

^ which canon source is thzt from?

The Clone Wars Episode Guide...

Well that sucks...

They're mentioned in the same sentence as Mace Windu and yet are soon demonstrated to not be anywhere near his level in combat. As I said you may intrepiderpret that as being in the top 20/30 but your personal interpretation that doesn't really have any logical backing doesn't really amount to anything. With the Jedi Order going back tens of thousands of years and having millions of members "the best" could effectively refer to a group that numbers in the tens of thousands, and it clearly refers to a group with a massive variance.



Something that actually stands out in the grand scheme of things.



Looks cool but now that I can see it for myself not only does it remain arguable visual hyperbole but it's potentially even less credible than that and simply an artistic technique used in comicbooks to indicate a sequence of motion and action in a single panel; it usually implies speed or that the actions were performed immediately after eachother in one swift sequence, but it certainly doesn't necessarily send any message that he looked like he was in multiple places at once.



But if we don't know who was holding back more (or even rather who had more to hold back) or even the exact terms of the spar we really can't draw much of a conclusion form it at all, and we know that the two are not anywhere near the same level in actual combat.



Maybe not as decisively or with such precision but Quinlan ultimately looked just as outmatched in both scenarios. You can attribute him landing a killing blow at the end of both battles to complacency on his opponents' part or even Quinlan having a moment of clarity and achieving a state of oneness in the force or whatever, but what's clear is that his consistent level of ability is really not demonstrated to be particularly great and I think it's made pretty clear that he wasn't a top tier Jedi.



So he had been running prior to the battle as well it seems. I really don't see how it's out of the question that Quinlan was also holding back, his primary goal was clearly to flee, I would have to familiarise myself with those comics again but I believe it was established that he hadn't really fallen to the darkside and was still ultimately good in which case I think it makes more sense both contextually and thematically that he didn't truly intend to fight Agen to the death or to potentially cause him any real harm, and he didn't really demonstrate any real killing intent in that battle, and for what it's worth was shown throwing stuff that isn't particularly lethal such as melee attacks and is shown engaging in a saber lock which vaguely implies that he may have been simply going through the motions of the battle (I understand this last part is pretty out there, just a possibility).

It's also worth noting that if they were both holding back, if you examine them as combatants, Agen seeming to be a bit more masterful and refined, with Quinlan being much more raw but potentially more ferocious, them both holding back may have hurted Quinlan more than Agen, where Agen with his experience and refinement may still be well equipped to aim to disarm Quinlan or cause light damage, whereas the difference for Quinlan may well be the difference between flat out unleashing everything and going for the kill or completely stymieing his offence and just going on the defensive or not really at all commiting to his attacks. Agen's skills may be more tailored to a precision accuracy based attack which would clearly be the favoured approach when you're simply trying to apprehend your opponent.



If anything these were just fighting words or a statement of his surface thoughts in that moment but not truly reflective of what was presumably an intense internal conflict going on at the time. Also Quinlan could consider him an enemy and a general obstruction to his objectives but still not necessarily wish to seriously harm him.



Not if it's incompatible with higher forms of canon or what has been established to be the more pervasive elements of canon.

Agree with a lot noit has said.

Yeah, and nether is Kenobi on Windus level.

Also your trying to beat down the quote. If it was "one of the best" in millions of years it would have been stated as "one of our best fighters in the current order" but no it WAS of all time. No reason why they wouldint be in the top 20-30.



Ummmm...and that.....would...be!?.



If your going to "beat it down" that way then you mightaswell ignore all EU as "hyperbole" or exagerated. Fact is Tiin has demonstartaed a speed feat easily on Kenobis level buddy.



Thanks for proving my point.



Tooling Vos is still a incredible feat. As the only fighters that have replicated that are Dooku/Windu.



No. Vos didint want to fight, but realized that he had to when Kolar corned him or else he would be arrested defeating the purpose of his mission.

Then Kolar procedded to tool him.

So yeah....



Okay. The only one holding back was Agen.

Agen slashes Vos in the neck and says "that could easily have been....yield".

Vos then says we have no choice BUT to be enemies.

So clearly it is Kolar holding back.



No....

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Tooling Vos is still a incredible feat. As the only fighters that have replicated that are Dooku/Windu.

How many people has Vos actually done well against and who? The guy seems to be really weak to me.

agree

Tooling Vos might not make one an exceptional duelist in itself, but when you add all of Kolar's accolades to the feat, Kolar becomes much more impressive.

Seriously, all I ever hear about is people kicking his ass.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Seriously, all I ever hear about is people kicking his ass.

It is impressive, seeing as how the only ones to tool Vos as bad as Kolar did were Windu/Dooku.

WHO DID HE TOOL... I don't care if he did okay in getting tooled by greats.. WHO THE F did he actually tool worth a shit?