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1. Pure saber combat

2. All-out

Setting: Naboo plains

Sidious speedblitzes Scourage rightofthebat then Kenobi engages the Hero(im sure he could last like 15seconds against the Hero in saber combat, right?). Then Sidious jumps over and the two PWN the Hero.

Sidious would probably blitz them both for a solo victory.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious would probably blitz them both for a solo victory.


You do realize the Hero beat Vitiate, right?

Well they don't have any good speed feats so they get blitzed. Remember, Sidious blitzed a guy who was so fast that he could blur his lightsaber into a cyclone!



JK

Anyway, team 2 should win.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
You do realize the Hero beat Vitiate, right?
Yes.

I don't see Sidious blitzing the HoT, but nor do I think that the latter has the feats to beat or really compete with Sidious in a forum duel.

Maybe, but I definitely don't see Sidous blitzing him.

I can point to my rather impressive list of Hero of Tython feats, but at the end of the day the HoT is the new Revan, where she's obviously near top-tier, but due to a lack of feats and information about her abilities we can't actually debate in her favor versus those who should be on her level.

She's a she? Didn't know that was confirmed.

But I'd say beating the supremely powerful Emperor puts her in the top-tier list, not near top-tier.

My HoT is a she. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-colbert.gif

Yes. *cue someone claiming Vitiate is Dooku level*

Originally posted by Nephthys
*cue someone claiming Vitiate is Dooku level*

Who the hell would say that? Clearly Vitiate is below Dooku's level.

biscuits

fffuuu

LOL.

Yeah, that's so not true.

Both teams can win or loose depending upon the circumstances and setting, IMO.

HoT and Scourge are excellent swordsmen in their own right much like individuals of Team 2. Once again, it is impossible to determine that which individual is the finest swordsman in this contest. A case can be made for HoT being a match for Sidious in martial aspects of combat at minimum.

Also, Scourge shouldn't be underestimated. He have his share of victories and losses which is the case with almost every prominent character but his accomplishment on the whole is extremely impressive even by Star Wars standards.

Hero of Tython, Lord Scourge and ROTS Kenobi vs ROTS Sidious would be much closer.

^^^ overkill for Sidious.

HoT is both:-

1. Among the most powerful Force-users of the mythos
2. Among extraordinarily talented combatants of the mythos

Not just hype but actual credibility.

The fact that HoT defeated Vitiate should be enough to rank him among the best of the best.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
^^^ overkill for Sidious.

HoT is both:-

1. Among the most powerful Force-users of the mythos
2. Among extraordinarily talented combatants of the mythos

Not just hype but actual credibility.

Uh, both of these points would also apply to Obi Wan, and Agen Kolar.

He isn't beating Sidious.
Scourge isn't beating soresu-god Kenobi.

They die.

The Hero of Tython is way above Obi-Wan and Agen Kolar though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Hero of Tython is way above Obi-Wan and Agen Kolar though.

I am aware of that. My point is that SW legend's logic of "he's one of the best evar!" just doesn't hold up against two contestants that are also among the best evaaar.

Using ABC logic, Yoda > HoT because of a random RotS quote, and so Sidious > HoT as well. And Scourge has never demonstrated saber skillz on the level of Kenobi.

Originally posted by Master Han
Uh, both of these points would also apply to Obi Wan, and Agen Kolar.

He isn't beating Sidious.
They do not match HoT in the arena of feats and accomplishments.

Originally posted by Master Han
Scourge isn't beating soresu-god Kenobi.

They die.
You expect me to accept your subjective opinion without scrutinizing it?

Scourge (peak incarnation) managed to kill lot of powerful Jedi. If Obi-Wan is an EXPERT Form III swordsman, Scourge is an EXPERT swordsman (on the whole) and the latter may also have managed to significantly enhance his Force abilities (thanks to assistance of Sith Emperor himself).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
They do not match HoT in the arena of feats and accomplishments.


Like many video-game characters, the HoT's feats are quite subjective. The only one of importance here is his defeat of Vitiate (IIRC, in a dark side nexus).

Does this mean he can defeat Palpatine?

...we have no idea. So perhaps I prematurely dismissed his possible victory here.



"a lot of powerful Jedi" is not a very quantifiable feat. Kenobi handed Grievous his ass, who also killed "a lot of powerful Jedi" in their combative prime.

"EXPERT swordsman" doesn't mean much to another expert swordsman. Cin Drallig was also an "expert swordsman", yet he died quickly to Vader.

But please, go ahead and list his feats for us.

Originally posted by Master Han
Like many video-game characters, the HoT's feats are quite subjective. The only one of importance here is his defeat of Vitiate (IIRC, in a dark side nexus).

Have you read my Hero of Tython feats list?

Originally posted by Master Han
"a lot of powerful Jedi" is not a very quantifiable feat.

Fair enough. The actual number is over one hundred. And he's killed over ten times that amount of Sith.

Is that quantifiable?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Have you read my Hero of Tython feats list?


All of your feats are circular.

You defeat characters whose primary feats involve either losing to the Hero, or defeating other equally circularly defined combatants.

The only ones of external importance are his/her defeat of a monster that doesn't seem that much larger than a rancor, rancors that no-name lost tribe sith oneshot like jokes in Backlash, and his dodging of an orbital tracking laser, which, while impressive, is still difficult to quantify without knowing the weapon's firing speed, and not as unique given precognition.

Of course, this issue applies to all combatants fighting in different eras. Usually we try to gauge just how powerful they are relative to their era, and how powerful the era is relative to SW as a whole, right?

TOR seems to be among the most Force-potent eras in the mythos, but I'd still put it below the NJO and PT epochs.

And yet Sidious wtfomgroflamopwns three of the greatest in that era, and of any era, whom all actually have pretty beastly feats, in a matter of seconds.

Of course, you can say the same about the sith emperor, which is why I concede that it could go either way.



Come on, Nephthys. It would be pretty darn impressive if he killed all of those jedi and sith at the same time, but given that he does so over the course of 3 centuries, and without knowing just how tough those jedi/sith actually are...

We know that he's not very strong in Revan, but presumably he's improved in the three centuries and Emperor-rage-boost. We just can't conclude that he could defeat Kenobi, who has vastly superior fleets and accolades.

You know, his whole "the master of soresu" quote, and his "vessel of the Force" passage.

Originally posted by Master Han
It would be pretty darn impressive if he killed all of those jedi and sith at the same time, but given that he does so over the course of 3 centuries, and without knowing just how tough those jedi/sith actually are...
This is my argument in the other thread, Neph.

No, really?

No.

Well now I'm just befuddled!

It's that attention, isn't it?

No? Just... making friendly banter.

Originally posted by Master Han
Come on, Nephthys. It would be pretty darn impressive if he killed all of those jedi and sith at the same time, but given that he does so over the course of 3 centuries, and without knowing just how tough those jedi/sith actually are...



While I agree with you in the sense that we can't know how tough they were, there is something else: Emperor Vitiate was highly seclusive. Scourge was his only personal assassin in a Sith Order of thousands, and if he saw someone as a threat to his domain, he or she would certainly have to be significantly powerful in order to get the Emperor's direct attention. So Scourge personally dealt with the Emperor's most powerful enemies during 300 years. That ought to count for something; his job required him to be a very, very skilled individual.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
While I agree with you in the sense that we can't know how tough they were, there is something else: Emperor Vitiate was highly seclusive. Scourge was his only personal assassin in a Sith Order of thousands, and if he saw someone as a threat to his domain, he or she would certainly have to be significantly powerful in order to get the Emperor's direct attention. So Scourge personally dealt with the Emperor's most powerful enemies during 300 years. That ought to count for something; his job required him to be a very, very skilled individual.

It certainly lends credence to his combat experience, although the Emperor's hit list may consist of as many political threats as combative ones - is it not true that many members of the dark council are actually weaklings, who received positions based more on political guile than any strength in the Force?

Originally posted by Master Han
It certainly lends credence to his combat experience, although the Emperor's hit list may consist of as many political threats as combative ones - is it not true that many members of the dark council are actually weaklings, who received positions based more on political guile than any strength in the Force?

To a point. It had to be a combination of both: power and political guile. What happened in time is that some members who used to be powerful became weak as they got older and less influential and therefore became easy targets. But you couldn't be weak to enter the Dark Council.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
To a point. It had to be a combination of both: power and political guile. What happened in time is that some members who used to be powerful became weak as they got older and less influential and therefore became easy targets. But you couldn't be weak to enter the Dark Council.

I'd also point out that there's no reason to believe that the average Dark Council member is above the level of the average Jedi Council member, and Kenobi could tool 99% of them throughout history.

Originally posted by Master Han
All of your feats are circular.

You defeat characters whose primary feats involve either losing to the Hero, or defeating other equally circularly defined combatants.

I'm not going to write up a big argument for each feat. The list is just a basic idea of her accomplishments and why they're reasonably impressive. Orgus Din for instance was the orders most battle-hardened member, a Jedi Council member who's 'fought more battles with the Sith than any other living member of the order' and collapses a cave and makes the whole thing shake in front of you. And he's beaten by Bengal Marr, a dark jedi, right at the start of the game. The same Bengal Marr who the HoT beats with a training saber, right after arriving on Tython to begin her training. So you its not like these feats are all circular.

Also some of this was written by Legend. You can tell because of the way he repeats EXPERT alot.

Originally posted by Master Han
The only ones of external importance are his/her defeat of a monster that doesn't seem that much larger than a rancor, rancors that no-name lost tribe sith oneshot like jokes in Backlash, and his dodging of an orbital tracking laser, which, while impressive, is still difficult to quantify without knowing the weapon's firing speed, and not as unique given precognition.

What about the creature who hunts Krayt Dragons? With multiple Krayt Dragon skeletons surrounding its lair? Or an ancient Tarentatek? Or Lord Scourge? Or Darth Angral, the same guy Malgus thought could beat him in Deception? Or Tol Braga? Its a good list, man.

Also, that monster was imbued with so much darkside that it radiates it from its body, and was telepathic to the level of guiding an entire race. And you dodge that laser while also fighting an invisible Sith Lord.

Plus theres a few feats on it and various of the opponents are legitimately impressive victories.

Originally posted by Master Han
Of course, this issue applies to all combatants fighting in different eras. Usually we try to gauge just how powerful they are relative to their era, and how powerful the era is relative to SW as a whole, right?

TOR seems to be among the most Force-potent eras in the mythos, but I'd still put it below the NJO and PT epochs.

No, not really. At least I don't. I weigh their respective feats and accolade without regard for era or anything else.

I'd put it above the PT personally. Vitiate and the HoT are practically equivalent to Yoda and Sidious, the Barsen'thor and Malgus are equal to Mace Windu and Dooku but their just seems to be a higher level of power to the PT from everyone else, and a huge number of beasts above the rest of the PT cast.

Originally posted by Master Han
And yet Sidious wtfomgroflamopwns three of the greatest in that era, and of any era, whom all actually have pretty beastly feats, in a matter of seconds.

Of course, you can say the same about the sith emperor, which is why I concede that it could go either way.

Oh, I'm not actually arguing that the HoT could beat Sidious. As I've said, the lack of definition of her powers really holds her back. The best we can do is point to her victories and small amount of feats. The best we can do is say she's more powerful than Scourge and about as powerful as Vitiate and that she's likely pretty skilled given her wins and that she has a reputation for having 'legendary' martial prowess. The best we can do is loosely define her powers.


Originally posted by Master Han
Come on, Nephthys. It would be pretty darn impressive if he killed all of those jedi and sith at the same time, but given that he does so over the course of 3 centuries, and without knowing just how tough those jedi/sith actually are...

We know that he's not very strong in Revan, but presumably he's improved in the three centuries and Emperor-rage-boost. We just can't conclude that he could defeat Kenobi, who has vastly superior fleets and accolades.

You know, his whole "the master of soresu" quote, and his "vessel of the Force" passage.

Its an amazing record and we know that they're powerful because its confirmed that Vitiate only sends him against 'Jedi who become too powerful and Sith who become too ambitious.' Plus as I've argued in the other thread, its surely indicative of extraordinary skill and ability.

We don't know that. Not strong in comparison to Nyriss, Revan and Vitiate maybe, but he's still an powerful Sith Lord about on par with the Jedi Exile (who defeated an entire Sith Temple by herself on a potent darkside nexus).

I put Scourges kill count above Kenobi being fellated by Windu and a metaphorical statement.

Originally posted by Master Han
I'd also point out that there's no reason to believe that the average Dark Council member is above the level of the average Jedi Council member, and Kenobi could tool 99% of them throughout history.

That's true, but we're getting a little off the point here.

Even though there were obviously a lot of political opponents who needed to be put aside, during 300 years there were obviously also a significant amount combative threats. Of course it's impossible to determine the exact number, but it's a point of reference to his skill.

Originally posted by Master Han
It certainly lends credence to his combat experience, although the Emperor's hit list may consist of as many political threats as combative ones - is it not true that many members of the dark council are actually weaklings, who received positions based more on political guile than any strength in the Force?

No.

'Each is among the most powerful Sith in the galaxy'

'Anyone who becomes a Darth and lasts longer than a month has clearly earned her position through considerable power and sheer force of will.'

Originally posted by Master Han
I'd also point out that there's no reason to believe that the average Dark Council member is above the level of the average Jedi Council member, and Kenobi could tool 99% of them throughout history.

Bullshit. What about Nyriss? Or Darth Nox? Or Darth "routed whole armies and deflected assaults more thoroughly than any planetary shield" Marr? Darth Jadus? Darth Thanaton? Even Baras is probably a good fight for Kenobi.

I thought he meant he could tool members of the Jedi council, lol. Now I've read correctly.

Yes, members of the Dark Council were indeed powerful.

Indeed, the idea that Kenobi could 'tool' 99% of the most powerful members of the Sith Empire is ludicrous.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No.

'Each is among the most powerful Sith in the galaxy'

'Anyone who becomes a Darth and lasts longer than a month has clearly earned her position through considerable power and sheer force of will.'


OK, by weakling, I'm speaking relative to the top dogs here.

And furthermore, an example of a once powerful dark council member who now survives mainly on political power would be that one sith Nyriss sends Scourge to kill.



Nyriss was once shotted by Revan into a pile of ash.

Darth Marr's accolade sounds like quite the hyperbole.

And remember that I'm referring to the dark council as a whole relative to jedi councils - the top dogs of the PT council, Yoda and Windu, could hand Kenobi his ass as well.

Wat Up People This Topic Is Smelly.

Anyways The Hero Beat Sidious & Kenobi Beat Scourage Ultra Easy Then The Hero Kill Kenobi.

He could probably beat them all, though.

ugh3

lmfao

Originally posted by Master Han


And furthermore, an example of a once powerful dark council member who now survives mainly on political power would be that one sith Nyriss sends Scourge to kill.



Nyriss was once shotted by Revan into a pile of ash.



Actually, the Emperor wanted Nyriss dead for other reasons. She didn't mainly survive on political power, she survived on her own power. She tooled Scourge and the Exile at the same time in Revan. Her lightning was so powerful it tore through shields and desintegrates living beings.

She was turned to ashes by her own lightning.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Actually, the Emperor wanted Nyriss dead for other reasons. She didn't mainly survive on political power, she survived on her own power. She tooled Scourge and the Exile at the same time in Revan. He lightning was so powerful it tore through shields and desintegrates living beings.

Uh, read my post more carefully. That's not what I said.

Originally posted by Master Han
Uh, read my post more carefully. That's not what I said.

Apparently I can't read well today, lol.

Originally posted by Master Han
OK, by weakling, I'm speaking relative to the top dogs here.

And furthermore, an example of a once powerful dark council member who now survives mainly on political power would be that one sith Nyriss sends Scourge to kill.

These are the top dogs of the Empire. They are not weaklings compared to anyone.

That's an anomaly, as my quotes prove.

Originally posted by Master Han
I'd also point out that there's no reason to believe that the average Dark Council member is above the level of the average Jedi Council member, and Kenobi could tool 99% of them throughout history.
Absolutely wrong!

Ground realities of Dark Council is vastly different from that of Jedi Council. Competition for acquiring seats in the Dark Council spanned over millions of individuals within the Empire. In such a cut throat competition, sometimes, individuals didn't even last a month in the Dark Council. Yes, even after becoming a member of the Dark Council, the game was not over. Only the strongest individuals in the Galaxy lasted long in the Dark Council.

In contrast, a Jedi doesn't needs to be among the strongest in the Order to be appointed for membership in the Jedi Council. These members are mostly "role model" Jedi.

I recall two Dark Council members who engaged in a fight inside the (first) Citadel and utterly shattered the building in the process. These Council members are not even so well-known.

Originally posted by Master Han
And furthermore, an example of a once powerful dark council member who now survives mainly on political power would be that one sith Nyriss sends Scourge to kill.
Nyriss wasn't necessarily the strongest Dark Council member in her own era even. However, she was a formidable warrior; defeated two powerful opponents simultaneously without much issue.

Originally posted by Master Han
Nyriss was once shotted by Revan into a pile of ash.
Revan turned her own power against her; Revan understood the Force in ways that few ever did in the whole mythos.

Originally posted by Master Han
Darth Marr's accolade sounds like quite the hyperbole.
Darth Marr is "a master of the Force" and the leader of the "defensive responsibilities" of the Sith Empire. He have fought against the forces of the Republic on the frontlines much like Darth Malgus but the former was so powerful and skilled that tales spread within the Republic about a masked Dark Council member, managing to rout whole armies singlehandedly. Darth Marr defeated the Republic on many fronts during his life. Back home, he lasted over 40 years in the Dark Council (in its most important seat) and he became the de-factor leader of the Sith Empire during the absence of the Sith Emperor (during the presence of many other powerhouses). SWTOR Encyclopedia offers a convincing case of Darth Marr being among the ELITE of Sith Lords in entire history.

Originally posted by Master Han
And remember that I'm referring to the dark council as a whole relative to jedi councils - the top dogs of the PT council, Yoda and Windu, could hand Kenobi his ass as well.
Many Dark Council members would be too tough for Obi-Wan, IMO.

Obi-Wan's greatest weakness is his lack of effectiveness at handling potent Force powers.

Oooh, who?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Absolutely wrong!

Ground realities of Dark Council is vastly different from that of Jedi Council. Competition for acquiring seats in the Dark Council spanned over millions of individuals within the Empire. In such a cut throat competition, sometimes, individuals didn't even last a month in the Dark Council. Yes, even after becoming a member of the Dark Council, the game was not over. Only the strongest individuals in the Galaxy lasted long in the Dark Council.

In contrast, a Jedi doesn't needs to be among the strongest in the Order to be appointed for membership in the Jedi Council. These members are mostly "role model" Jedi.

I recall two Dark Council members who engaged in a fight inside the (first) Citadel and utterly shattered the building in the process. These Council members are not even so popular.

To the reverse, I could argue that the Dark Council would hold more political nepotism and corrupt practices.

Again, I'm much too lazy to bring out all the quotes at the moment, but it's been stated on more than one occasions that it's not uncommon for many members of the dark council to have either reached or maintained their position through political guile rather than Force ability.

Hence why Malgus was never a member until the end.

Originally posted by Master Han
To the reverse, I could argue that the Dark Council would hold more political nepotism and corrupt practices.

Again, I'm much too lazy to bring out all the quotes at the moment, but it's been stated on more than one occasions that it's not uncommon for many members of the dark council to have either reached or maintained their position through political guile rather than Force ability.

Hence why Malgus was never a member until the end.
My assertions are based on canon sources. This book answers lot of questions: http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-The-Republic-Encyclopedia/dp/0756698391

Powerful Sith existed outside the Dark Council as well. Not every Sith was willing to get involved in a life-threatening competition.

Of-course, Dark Council members were politicians as well but strength was a central characteristic of them. Every Dark Council member was in-charge of a special assignment in the Sith Empire and he/she had to be the role-model in his/her sector to survive and expect discipline from those who worked beneath him/her (like millions).

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oooh, who?
Darth Victun and Darth Qalar

Its confirmed by the Swtor codex that the Dark Council is made up of the most powerful Sith in the Empire, 'Each is among the most powerful Sith in the galaxy' (in fact the use of in the galaxy means they still counted even when Exar Kun and Revan and their empires were running around) and that even surviving a month as a Darth, let alone a Dark Council Member, proves that one has considerable power, ''Anyone who becomes a Darth and lasts longer than a month has clearly earned her position through considerable power and sheer force of will.'

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Victun and Darth Qalar

Very interesting. And despite that great power, they were still able to be executed by the rest of the Council.

^^^

Exactly

After the destruction of the first Citadel, a second was built.

You know, I'm much too lazy to get out my Revan and Deceived novels and cite evidence that not every dark council member is a powerhouse relative to the likes of Kenobi, but I think you both know that they're there.

You know, because although being on the dark council may correlate with and even require power, it's not an absolute relationship. Politics also come into mind, hence why Malgus isn't on the council.

Similarly, everyone on the PT Jedi council is likely in the top 1% of the Jedi Order in terms of Force capabilities, but Dooku isn't on the council and could tool all but two of them, and Qui Gon never made it because he held unorthodox views.

Yes, thats true. However, that doesn't mean that the overwhelming majority of DCM's aren't extremely powerful badasses who are the most powerful Sith in the Empire. Just because other powerful Sith who rival them are not on the council, doesn't make the council weak.

Its canon that 'Each is among the most powerful Sith in the galaxy'. Just end of story.

Dooku and Qui-Gon are exceptions, though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, thats true. However, that doesn't mean that the overwhelming majority of DCM's aren't extremely powerful badasses who are the most powerful Sith in the Empire. Just because other powerful Sith who rival them are not on the council, doesn't make the council weak.

Its canon that 'Each is among the most powerful Sith in the galaxy'. Just end of story.

Could refer to political power. biscuits

Lmao.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, thats true. However, that doesn't mean that the overwhelming majority of DCM's aren't extremely powerful badasses who are the most powerful Sith in the Empire. Just because other powerful Sith who rival them are not on the council, doesn't make the council weak.

Its canon that 'Each is among the most powerful Sith in the galaxy'. Just end of story.

Yes, but when you look at his feats in context...they can't stack up to Obi Wan's.

He disarms half of Grievous's lightsabers in the course of 25 seconds. This same Grievous has taken on and defeated Jedi council members and numerous other dangerous foes. He's also defeated Ventress, who, again, has defeated numerous top-dog PT masters.

His accolades, attributed by masters such as Windu and Dooku, as well as OOU narrators, rank him as perhaps the greatest soresu practitioner in recorded history, with defenses so great, even Dooku could not penetrate them without the aid of telekinesis.

By RotS, he has surpassed legends such as Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, his master Qui Gon, and various Jedi all described as some of the greatest swordsmen the Order has ever produced. As of RotS, only five living combatants could be said to be ahead of him:

Yoda - "most powerful foe the darkness has ever known"
Sidious - the most powerful sith lord to ever live
Mace Windu - invented vaapad, defeated Sidious, has ridiculous "move too fast for you to see" feats, etc.
Dooku - one of the most powerful Jedi in the order's 25,000 year long history, "and an even greater sith lord"
Anakin - the chosen one...Stover particularly gives him monstrous accolades in the RotS novelization.

He tools beings that have tooled prodigies.

You see, this is a little more impressive and definite than Lord Scourge's "kill lots of powerful Jedi and Sith". Particularly, Scourge relies on drawing on his enemies' fear and hatred...that won't really work against Kenobi.

Sidious would probably end up killing Scourge very, and obi-wan, being the greatest master of soresu, would probably hold off the hero long enough for Sidious to finish him.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Sidious would probably end up killing Scourge very, and obi-wan, being the greatest master of soresu, would probably hold off the hero long enough for Sidious to finish him.
very quickly*

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes, but when you look at his feats in context...they can't stack up to Obi Wan's.

He disarms half of Grievous's lightsabers in the course of 25 seconds. This same Grievous has taken on and defeated Jedi council members and numerous other dangerous foes. He's also defeated Ventress, who, again, has defeated numerous top-dog PT masters.

His accolades, attributed by masters such as Windu and Dooku, as well as OOU narrators, rank him as perhaps the greatest soresu practitioner in recorded history, with defenses so great, even Dooku could not penetrate them without the aid of telekinesis.

By RotS, he has surpassed legends such as Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, his master Qui Gon, and various Jedi all described as some of the greatest swordsmen the Order has ever produced. As of RotS, only five living combatants could be said to be ahead of him:

Yoda - "most powerful foe the darkness has ever known"
Sidious - the most powerful sith lord to ever live
Mace Windu - invented vaapad, defeated Sidious, has ridiculous "move too fast for you to see" feats, etc.
Dooku - one of the most powerful Jedi in the order's 25,000 year long history, "and an even greater sith lord"
Anakin - the chosen one...Stover particularly gives him monstrous accolades in the RotS novelization.

He tools beings that have tooled prodigies.

You see, this is a little more impressive and definite than Lord Scourge's "kill lots of powerful Jedi and Sith". Particularly, Scourge relies on drawing on his enemies' fear and hatred...that won't really work against Kenobi.

I agree with you, for once.

Scourge was also defeated by the hero of tython when he hadnt even reached his prime, (food for thought, the hero, when not in his prime, defeated scourge, then proceeded to be completely destroyed by the voice of the emperor, while the hero had a strike team at his back. when he reached his prime, he soloed the emperor on a dark side nexus.)

^The Emperor was massively weakened when the Hero fought him on Dromund Kaas, he was Vitiate's inferior throughout the game.

Also, Team 2 wins handily. While Scourge is a pretty good match for Kenobi, there's no chance the HoT is beating Sidious, lets be honest here.

Kenobi would most likely beat scourge, considering that scourge's greatest strength is gorging himself on his foe's emotions, this weakness is not put into play against kenobi

Scourge has killed hundreds of Jedi, he's obviously quite capable of drawing on the emotions of those who don't use hate and anger. Perhaps determination could be drawn from?

probably true, but i still believe that obi would win, considering (as aforementioned) that scourge lost to a hero of tython who wasnt in his/her prime, whom i think kenobi is stronger than. anyways, i gotta log, c ya'll tomorrow

Sidious blitzes Scourage, Kenobi should at least be able to last 12seconds Vs the Hero long enough for team to PWN him.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Scourge has killed hundreds of Jedi, he's obviously quite capable of drawing on the emotions of those who don't use hate and anger. Perhaps determination could be drawn from?

WADR, that's quite faulty logic; that Scourge can defeat Jedi does not mean that he did so by drawing upon their emotions. Maybe he's just better than a lot of them from his baseline capabilities.

That being said, being able to kill lots of Jedi and Sith really doesn't mean being able to kill the master of soresu, who's already above everyone in the golden age of lightsaber dueling aside from the most powerful Jedi in history, the most powerful sith in history, the chosen one, and a prodigal lightsaber legend.

1. This is funny, because it's directly shown that Scourge has a very hard time with droids because there are no emotions to be drawn from them, yet no such struggle with Jedi have been noted.

2. Point me to where I said Scourge could actually defeat Kenobi? I'm merely mentioning that his powers wouldn't be completely ineffective.

3. That's your opinion, and not a fact.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
1. This is funny, because it's directly shown that Scourge has a very hard time with droids because there are no emotions to be drawn from them, yet no such struggle with Jedi have been noted.


I was referring to your "he's beat Jedi, so his ability must work on them" line of logic. And the lack of mention of a struggle doesn't mean that his ability to draw on emotions hasn't diminished - narrators forget to describe a lot of things.



"that being said" addressing the thread in general.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes, but when you look at his feats in context...they can't stack up to Obi Wan's.

He disarms half of Grievous's lightsabers in the course of 25 seconds. This same Grievous has taken on and defeated Jedi council members and numerous other dangerous foes. He's also defeated Ventress, who, again, has defeated numerous top-dog PT masters.

His accolades, attributed by masters such as Windu and Dooku, as well as OOU narrators, rank him as perhaps the greatest soresu practitioner in recorded history, with defenses so great, even Dooku could not penetrate them without the aid of telekinesis.

By RotS, he has surpassed legends such as Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, his master Qui Gon, and various Jedi all described as some of the greatest swordsmen the Order has ever produced. As of RotS, only five living combatants could be said to be ahead of him:

Yoda - "most powerful foe the darkness has ever known"
Sidious - the most powerful sith lord to ever live
Mace Windu - invented vaapad, defeated Sidious, has ridiculous "move too fast for you to see" feats, etc.
Dooku - one of the most powerful Jedi in the order's 25,000 year long history, "and an even greater sith lord"
Anakin - the chosen one...Stover particularly gives him monstrous accolades in the RotS novelization.

He tools beings that have tooled prodigies.

You see, this is a little more impressive and definite than Lord Scourge's "kill lots of powerful Jedi and Sith". Particularly, Scourge relies on drawing on his enemies' fear and hatred...that won't really work against Kenobi.

You're welcome to your opinion. Personally though I see Scourges feats and accolades as just as impressive as Kenobi's. Yes, Kenobi is an exemplary swordsman. I just think that Scourge, being a Juyo master even as of Revan and thus a high-end master of multiple forms who even his lightsaber instructors were hesitant to face when he was an apprentice, would be just as skilled if not more given his extra 300 years worth of training and fighting. This is indicated by his ability to discern any weakness in person from a glance, based on his huge experience. He was already a powerful Sith Lord portrayed as equal to the Jedi Exile (who I rank as about Kenobi level) in Revan and according to Revan wasn't even close to reaching his full potential yet. So, again, I think its logical to think that he would have grown considerably since then.

Therefore, I don't think it ridiculous to think he could beat Kenobi, or that he's equal to him at all. Also..... his killcount is really big. So big man.

And Scourge doesn't rely on his power to draw emotions. He learned not to after the incident with the droids you mentioned above, as it was a weakness. He can fight fine without drawing on his opponent. Although he could still draw on Sidious' rage....

Scourge also has a personal shield generator that would help him.

Eh I doubt Kenobi would pwn Scourage. Win, but not PWN him. Proabably wins 6/10.

Dosint matter since Sidious blitzes Scourage rightaway and Kenobi holds off the hero for 12seconds long enough for team to wtfpwn.

The HoT really should be able to whoop Kenobi's ass almost as easily as Sidious would whoop Scourges.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You're welcome to your opinion. Personally though I see Scourges feats and accolades as just as impressive as Kenobi's.

When has anyone described Scourge as one of the greatest of all time, or even among the greatest of his time?



There are enough juyo masters in the PT, yet Obi Wan surpasses all but two of them, three if Yoda has also mastered the form.



This makes him exceptional; this does not put him on the level of Kenobi. As a padawan, Kenobi survives and kills (with some luck) "one of the deadliest sith apprentices in history", who had earlier tooled the temple battlemaster, whose proficiency with a blade was "second to none" in the dueling golden age.




This is certainly a point in his favor, but it's not necessarily enough to overcome Kenobi's superior demonstrated talents, given that Vodo lived for several hundred years and still got tooled by Exar Kun.



I don't see where you pull the idea of the Exile being on Kenobi's level. Scourge was impressed by her power; he was not like "OMG he's one of the greatest duelists in history!", as people have described Kenobi.

Remember that Scourge at this time is still relatively obscure, and is routinely outranked and doubtful of his ability to take on dark council members. Kenobi can handily defeat all but three of the members on the RotS council.



His killcount is bigger than Luke's as well, so does that mean he'd last thirty seconds against him?

Experience is important, but not as much if most of it involves taking on opponents way below Kenobi's caliber.



Fair point, I'm just saying he wouldn't be able to use that ability.



I didn't know about that.

Originally posted by Master Han
When has anyone described Scourge as one of the greatest of all time, or even among the greatest of his time?

Has anyone ever described the Hero of Tython as such? No, but we know she is. You don't need to be explicitly stated as being among the greats to be among the greats. Scourge definitely is among the greatest given what we know about him. None have his kind of record.

Originally posted by Master Han
There are enough juyo masters in the PT, yet Obi Wan surpasses all but two of them, three if Yoda has also mastered the form.

I'm well aware. I was establishing that Scourge was already a fine swordsman as of Revan. Which you seem to have gotten given....

Originally posted by Master Han
This makes him exceptional; this does not put him on the level of Kenobi. As a padawan, Kenobi survives and kills (with some luck) "one of the deadliest sith apprentices in history", who had earlier tooled the temple battlemaster, whose proficiency with a blade was "second to none" in the dueling golden age.

... this. I agree that it indicates he was exceptional. And I also agree that that alone doesn't make him on Kenobi's level. If however we agree that he was an exceptional swordman as of Revan....

(The Maul thing is irrelevent. It was luck and circumstance. You might as well credit Han with a legitimate Sidious kill if you go by those standards.)

Originally posted by Master Han
This is certainly a point in his favor, but it's not necessarily enough to overcome Kenobi's superior demonstrated talents, given that Vodo lived for several hundred years and still got tooled by Exar Kun.

... then logically he should be an even greater swordsman as of Swtor. Vodo is different, he was a Jedi Master who had other duties and likely focused on training others and meditation etc rather than developing his combat abilities. Scourge on the other hand learns faster given that he's a Sith, and his whole purpose was to be an assassin and kill people as well as prepare to backstab Vitiate for the fate of the galaxy. He would have developed his abilities a lot more than Vodo did. He's also obviously been highly active in terms of combat and has access to the finest resources Vitiates Empire has to offer.

Besides which is that Exar Kun is obviously really ****ing powerful and power can defeat skill and experience. Just like the Hero of Tython defeated Scourge.

To conclude: Scourge was already a highly skilled swordsman as of Revan, given what we can logically conclude he would have grown significantly as one in his 300 years in Vitiates service. He has 11x as much time to develop his abilities as Kenobi has and has ample opportunity and reason to develop them. Going by that, I believe it to be a safe assumption that he would have reached Kenobi's level or exceeded it.

Originally posted by Master Han
I don't see where you pull the idea of the Exile being on Kenobi's level. Scourge was impressed by her power; he was not like "OMG he's one of the greatest duelists in history!", as people have described Kenobi.

Remember that Scourge at this time is still relatively obscure, and is routinely outranked and doubtful of his ability to take on dark council members. Kenobi can handily defeat all but three of the members on the RotS council.

Hopefully what I have revealed in the other thread has changed your mind. To wit: She fought across the surface of Malachor which is filled with monsters, fought through a Sith temple, defeated Darth Sion multiple times then defeated Darth Traya twice in a row. That's a hugely impressive feat that puts her at Kenobi level in my eyes. Also in terms of swordmanship she's able to become proficient in a lightsaber form after observing someone using it for a few minutes. She is surely incredibly skilled.

No he can't.

Originally posted by Master Han
His killcount is bigger than Luke's as well, so does that mean he'd last thirty seconds against him?

Experience is important, but not as much if most of it involves taking on opponents way below Kenobi's caliber.

That doesn't make it irrelevent. I've articulated why its an important factor here and in other threads. With that level of expertise, Scourge should be an exemplary swordsman who can take on Kenobi.

Does anyone on Team 1 have a defense against Deadly Sight?

Scourge has a portable shield generator.

And wouldn't a simple Force Shield protect against it? The HoT was resisting Vitiates force attacks, so she's clearly got highly advanced defenses.

...no, you really haven't.

1. You've suggested that Scourge as of Revan considers himself to be a peer of Meetra Surik, whose showings in the book aren't that impressive at all (quotes if I get time).
2. You've suggested that Scourge has killed lots of powerful Jedi and Sith.

This is really it. I don't understand why you think that vague accolades and questionable feats allow us to put a character at whatever arbitrary level you want. Obi Wan has been described as one of the greatest swordsmen to ever live - this blows anything that's been described about Scourge out of the water. Obi Wan has defeated specific foes with specific feats and accolades; Scourge has only been suggested to have defeated foes that were powerful. Remember that Durge considers Anakin to be the fastest Jedi he's ever met, and he's been alive for over 1000 years. Obi Wan can still stand up to him in RotS.

Addressing your HoT analogy, the Hero is still stated to be perhaps the most powerful Jedi in the entire TOR era, above possibly Satele Shan, who has her own impressive feats and accolades, so we can scale. We can't do this for Scourge. I'll address your Exile-powerscaling when I get that quote, but overall, your argument boils down to:

"master swordsman" and "has killed lots of powerful foes" exceeds being labeled "the" master of soresu, and one of the greatest duelists in recorded history.

It's like comparing a random student who's at the top of his high school to Leonardo DaVinci, and claiming that the student's teachers praising him as "very talented" makes them peers.

Obi-Wan was labelled "the" master of Soresu by Mace Windu alone. Whoopdido.

Edit: Also Satale explicitly says the Hero is superior to her iirc.

Originally posted by Master Han
...no, you really haven't.

1. You've suggested that Scourge as of Revan considers himself to be a peer of Meetra Surik, whose showings in the book aren't that impressive at all (quotes if I get time).
2. You've suggested that Scourge has killed lots of powerful Jedi and Sith.

1. No actually, I said he was portrayed as such.

2. Indeed. He's fought over a hundred times as many powerful opponents as Obi-Wan has.

Originally posted by Master Han
This is really it.

http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-crossarms.gif

Have you even read my post?

Originally posted by Master Han
I don't understand why you think that vague accolades and questionable feats allow us to put a character at whatever arbitrary level you want. Obi Wan has been described as one of the greatest swordsmen to ever live - this blows anything that's been described about Scourge out of the water.

Its funny how you mention vague accolades then tout this fine example of one. One of the greatest of all time? Great. Is he in the top 100? The top million? Saying that he's just one of the greatest is vague as hell buddy. And its funny how this amazing swordsman has gotten tooled by Ventress, Savage Opress and Darts D'nar, lol.

It doesn't blow anything out of the water. I can easily argue that Scourge is also 'one of the greatest swordsman to ever live.' Agen Kolar etc are also labelled as such, this doesn't make them anything more than standard Jedi Council Member level.

Originally posted by Master Han
Obi Wan has defeated specific foes with specific feats and accolades; Scourge has only been suggested to have defeated foes that were powerful.

And we can logically deduce that the level of power would have to be extraordinary. Given the amount of powerful Force Users in the TOR era, its a certainty that many surpassed Kenobi in power.

Also we get a clue as to the calibur of his targets in TOR, when he is sent to take out a former Dark Council member.

Originally posted by Master Han
Remember that Durge considers Anakin to be the fastest Jedi he's ever met, and he's been alive for over 1000 years. Obi Wan can still stand up to him in RotS.

Durge was largely hiding for those 1000 years, remember?

Originally posted by Master Han
"master swordsman" and "has killed lots of powerful foes" exceeds being labeled "the" master of soresu, and one of the greatest duelists in recorded history.

It's like comparing a random student who's at the top of his high school to Leonardo DaVinci, and claiming that the student's teachers praising him as "very talented" makes them peers.

Its more than that genius. Use your head, Scourge was already a master swordsman as of Revan and grew significantly since then. I see no damn reason why he wouldn't be on Kenobi's level by TOR. Kenobi isn't even very high in the first place. He's mid-tier in terms of skill and power. Big deal.

Originally posted by Nephthys
2. Indeed. He's fought over a hundred times as many powerful opponents as Obi-Wan has.


Quantity < quality.



Yes. It boils down to:

1. Accolades that don't hold a candle to Obi Wan's, especially given by the ever eloquent Matthew Stover.
2. Vague feats about beating lots of "powerful" Jedi and Sith.



It's quite self explanatory that "one of the greatest of all time" >> "a master swordsman", and >> "lightsaber instructors were reluctant to face him!"



He's surpassed all of them by RotS, and none of these combatants that you quality with an "lol" are jokes, given that Ventress has defeated Kit Fisto, described as one of the greatest duelists in history.



In your opinion. Obi Wan has not only been stated to be such, but has also been suggested to be the greatest soresu practitioner to have ever lived.


See? Kenobi has greater accolades.

Kenobi also has greater feats, when we consider that quality beats quantity.



In your opinion. You've demonstrated nothing to suggest that Scourge is above Kenobi.



Again, you fail to put this "feat" in context. Kenobi can trash most Council members throughout history.



His experience nonetheless rivals Scourge's own.



No, you're just making up useless conjecture.

Your contention is that (Rots Kenobi minus Revan Scourge) < (3 centuries plus Vitiate boost). How do you know? Everytime you state this assertion, your only elaboration is to declare it self evident and that you "see no damn reason" why it "wouldn't" be the case.

Kenobi has greater accolades.
Kenobi has more impressive feats.

Scourge merely has vague attributions to killing lots of enemies of unknown capabilities.

And I swear, please don't try bringing up that his enemies were "council level", or that Scourge is a "master swordsman", OK?



Buddy, I just explained to you that Kenobi is widely regarded to be anything but "mid-tier".

Yeah, I wouldn't go as far as saying Kenobi's mid-tier... He's top-tier no doubt.

I'm talking about in relation to other characters. Kenobi is decidedly mid-tier in regards to the people we discuss on this forum.

Originally posted by Master Han
Quantity < quality.

Not in that large of amounts.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes. It boils down to:

1. Accolades that don't hold a candle to Obi Wan's, especially given by the ever eloquent Matthew Stover.
2. Vague feats about beating lots of "powerful" Jedi and Sith.

3. A logical explanation of why a skilled lightsaber duelist would become much more skilled over a 300 year long period of training and fighting.
4. Being above the Dark Council. Scourge is Vitiates most powerful tool.
5. Also, a portable shield generator. Does Kenobi have a portable shield generator? Yeah, I didn't ****ing think so.

Originally posted by Master Han
It's quite self explanatory that "one of the greatest of all time" >> "a master swordsman", and >> "lightsaber instructors were reluctant to face him!"

Yes. I already said that. And if that was all that was relevant then you'd have a point. But the fact is that thats the level Scourge was at before he became the Emperor's Wrath. He was that good after 30 years. With an extra ten times that amount of training and battle experience, do you really suppose that Kenobi's still >> him?

Originally posted by Master Han
He's surpassed all of them by RotS, and none of these combatants that you quality with an "lol" are jokes, given that Ventress has defeated Kit Fisto, described as one of the greatest duelists in history.

My point is that despite being 'lulz, the greatest soresu master evah!', Kenobi has still gotten his ass kicked a number of times. Don't act as if he's a peerless swordsman, plenty of characters in his own time equal or surpass him in swordsmanship or raw combat ability.

Originally posted by Master Han
In your opinion. Obi Wan has not only been stated to be such, but has also been suggested to be the greatest soresu practitioner to have ever lived.

By Mace Windu only. Forgive me if I don't take his word, Windu is notoriously humble and disproportionate in his estimation of others. He gives Depa Billaba and Kar Vastor serious fellating and says both of them are his superiors.... riiiight before he beats them, for example.

And its not just based on my opinion. That Scourge was undefeated for such a long period of time as Vitiates de-facto no.2 definitely suggests that he'd be counted among the greatest in history. He was among the greatest for a significant portion of it, lol.

Originally posted by Master Han
In your opinion. You've demonstrated nothing to suggest that Scourge is above Kenobi.

Yes, I have. That you've apparently not payed attention while I have does not diminish the fact that.... I have.

Originally posted by Master Han
Again, you fail to put this "feat" in context. Kenobi can trash most Council members throughout history.

Lolwut? No he ****ing can't. haermm

The context is that Lord Scourge's express purpose (as explained to his successor in TOR) as the Emperor's Wrath is to be above the Dark Council and police their actions while also killing off any threats to Vitiate. This is supported by the Sith Warrior, after being appointed the new Emperor's Wrath, being ordered to defeat three Dark Council members in a row. Scourge is above the Dark Council, the same people who can teleport, rout whole armies, shield a 600m long Dreadnought (Dominator) from disintegration etc etc. The most powerful Sith in the Empire. And he's been above them for 300 years.

The 'context' is also that the guy he was sent after once fought a duel for several days straight, indicating enormous power and endurance.

Originally posted by Master Han
His experience nonetheless rivals Scourge's own.

Not in dealing with Jedi and Sith it doesn't.

Originally posted by Master Han
No, you're just making up useless conjecture.

Your contention is that (Rots Kenobi minus Revan Scourge) < (3 centuries plus Vitiate boost). How do you know? Everytime you state this assertion, your only elaboration is to declare it self evident and that you "see no damn reason" why it "wouldn't" be the case.

Because it is self-evident. Its hardly rocket science here. Scourge had already grown to be a great swordsman in 30 years of his life. Giving him an extra 300 years, ten times that amount, would logically significantly improve his abilities. Now the gap between 'master of multiple forms' Revan!Scourge and Kenobi might be large, but there is no doubt that it would have closed in those 300 years between that and TOR!Scourge. A child could understand this, and obviously you can because I doubt you're actually a dumb as you're coming off as. If someone can reach a certain level of skill in 30 years, then they can obviously improve upon that level quite a ****ing lot with an extra 300 years, with a boost to their capabilities, while constantly making use of that skill and with the finest resources there are to help their improve that skill.

Do you understand now? Because I'm running out of ways to describe it without getting condescending.

Originally posted by Master Han
Kenobi has greater accolades.
Kenobi has more impressive feats.

Scourge merely has vague attributions to killing lots of enemies of unknown capabilities.

And I swear, please don't try bringing up that his enemies were "council level", or that Scourge is a "master swordsman", OK?

Kenobi's feats and accolades are greater in your opinion. I've given my own reasons for why I disagree and you've failed to actually offer any counter-arguments against my reasons that I can see.

If you want to read more into my line of reasoning, you're welcome to check out the Count Dooku and Darth Maul vs Darth Malgus and Lord Scourge thread.

Originally posted by Master Han
Buddy, I just explained to you that Kenobi is widely regarded to be anything but "mid-tier".

As I said above, Kenobi very much is mid-tier in comparison to the rest of the mythos. Dooku is a cut above him, someone like Galen Marek is a cut above even Dooku and we have Luke, Sidious, Vitiate etc at the top. Kenobi is right in the middle of the actual powerhouses, which he certainly is not, and the weaklings like..... Scout.

He certainly is not 'top tier' though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not in that large of amounts.


Uh, yes, in that large amounts. Scourge can keep killing random Jedi and Sith for ten thousand years, and he'd still die like a ***** to Luke Skywalker, for example.




Is he, now? He only becomes the Emperor's wrath after demonstrating apparent loyalty by stabbing the Exile in the back. Clearly, Vitiate trusts him, but it's debatable how well he'd fare against the upper tiers of the dark council, or against Darth Malgus.



Um, portable shield generators explicitly went obsolete for a reason.



He still has superior feats and accolades, so it's the only reasonable conclusion to draw.

Your argument would have a point if Revan Scourge were already approaching Obi Wan's level. But given that he gets embarrassed by a random bounty hunter and trashed by Nyriss, there's no reason to believe that this Scourge would last more than 30 seconds against Agen Kolar.

OK, go ahead and rebute this by calling him a "master swordsman" and "juyo practitioner". Because I could literally substitute a few words here and there to argue that Kit Fisto could stand with Palpatine. Because you still haven't realized that the accolades Revan Scourge has to his name apply to a wide range of combatants, the upper ends of which would dispatch the lower ends in literally less than 5 seconds.



By RotS, only five match or surpass him in swordsmanship. One is explicitly the most powerful light sider to that point in the mythos. Another is explicitly the most powerful sith lord in history. The third defeated said sith lord. The fourth is described as one of the greatest duelists the Order has ever produced. The fifth is the Chosen One, and still lost to Kenobi in their duel.

Your logic doesn't make much sense anyway, since Scourge would also get his ass kicked by any variety of foes from TOR era, and contrary to your subjective opinion, the RotS order > TOR order by canon.



Doesn't change the fact that Kenobi's accolades, from both his peers and his enemies, and also from OOU narrators and encyclopedias, far surpass Scourge's own.



Quality > quantity.



And I still don't understand why you arbitrarily declare that any dark council members Scourge has offed match Kenobi in combative ability. I also don't understand why you think the Emperor's Wrath would encounter these foes and attack them in a fair fight, despite his having the Emperor's resources and the element of surprise on his side.



OK, let me see if I can get this through to you with this line of questioning. Solve this equation:

(X - Revan Scourge) = (300 years + Vitiate boost)

Where X is a certain combatant at which, in your minds, can defeat the Emperor's Wrath at his peak.

It goes without saying that I would like some reasoning as to why you chose the combatant you will select. We already know that the HoT > X. If you designate RotS Anakin, explain why you picked him, and not, say, RotS Windu. etc.




Firstly, Marek is not "a cut above" Dooku. Secondly, none of the combatants you mention would lose to Scourge in a duel.

All-out Marek would defeat Dooku as he defeated Vader.

Marek is clearly a step above Dooku in terms of Force powers. Redirecting a star destroyer, creating an artificial hurricane, powering a corvette with his lightning, disintegrating a different corvette, forcequaking apart a orbital skyhook, taking down an AT-AT with his lightning..... he's just clearly above Dooku.

And saberwise, he's at least on par with Vader.

Originally posted by Nephthys
My HoT is a she. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-colbert.gif

Yes. *cue someone claiming Vitiate is Dooku level*

I'm down for this, as my main is a he and he's a Sage.

I've hurt my back, so no reply 4 awhile.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I've hurt my back, so no reply 4 awhile.


What does that have to do with your fingers?

I can't sit up 4 long and I can't concetrate on a argument.

You owed me an explanation?

fuc You

Originally posted by Nephthys
I've hurt my back, so no reply 4 awhile.

That must suck.

Originally posted by Master Han
Uh, yes, in that large amounts. Scourge can keep killing random Jedi and Sith for ten thousand years, and he'd still die like a ***** to Luke Skywalker, for example.

True, but thats a false comparison. Luke is the very top of the ladder. Kenobi meanwhile is only slightly above Jedi Council level.

The fact is that Kenobi and the type of opponents are a at that level, which is only a bit above the level we can reasonably expect Scourge to have been operating against. That level of quality is not such that it outweighs the sheer amount of Scourges victories.

Quality can be above quantity, but only when it is significantly so. Scourge isn't fighting weaklings half as good as Kenobi is. He's fighting extremely powerful Jedi and Dark Council level Sith.

Originally posted by Master Han
Is he, now? He only becomes the Emperor's wrath after demonstrating apparent loyalty by stabbing the Exile in the back. Clearly, Vitiate trusts him, but it's debatable how well he'd fare against the upper tiers of the dark council, or against Darth Malgus.

Yes. The whole point of the Emperor's Wrath is to be a force Vitiate can rely upon outside of and above even the Council, and if necessary to deal with them should they get too ambitious. Being above the Dark Council is in Scourge's job description.

Originally posted by Master Han
Um, portable shield generators explicitly went obsolete for a reason.

Because blasters overtook their effectiveness. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't allow Scourge protection from Kenobi's Force attacks or lightsaber on top of his heavy armor.

Originally posted by Master Han
He still has superior feats and accolades, so it's the only reasonable conclusion to draw.

Your argument would have a point if Revan Scourge were already approaching Obi Wan's level. But given that he gets embarrassed by a random bounty hunter and trashed by Nyriss, there's no reason to believe that this Scourge would last more than 30 seconds against Agen Kolar.

OK, go ahead and rebute this by calling him a "master swordsman" and "juyo practitioner". Because I could literally substitute a few words here and there to argue that Kit Fisto could stand with Palpatine. Because you still haven't realized that the accolades Revan Scourge has to his name apply to a wide range of combatants, the upper ends of which would dispatch the lower ends in literally less than 5 seconds.

Thats idiotic and you know it.

He was. Just because he struggled against a Bounty Hunter doesn't make him weak. The BH campaign in SWTOR makes it clear that some Hunters are just that ****ing good. Likewise Nyriss was clearly a complete beast who would hand Kenobi is ass too. Scourge has the accolades at the time to make him a significantly skilled and powerful combatant. Even if he is behind Kenobi, he is not so pathetic that he couldn't reach him in 300 years. Revan and Nyriss sensed incredible potential from him, so he'd be a lot more powerful after those 300 years. He has time, reason and opportunity to vastly increase his already respectable skills. Vitiate boosted his capabilities. Everything points to him equaling or surpassing Obi-Wan as the Emperor's Wrath.

I've realised and admitted that Scourge as of Revan is not on Kenobi's level. But he is not as far off that Kenobi could beat him in seconds. Or that with the huge increase from that level to TOR that he couldn't equal or surpass Kenobi. Get your mouth off of Kenobi's dick for a minute and actually pay attention to the facts and try to apply some logic.

Originally posted by Master Han
By RotS, only five match or surpass him in swordsmanship. One is explicitly the most powerful light sider to that point in the mythos. Another is explicitly the most powerful sith lord in history. The third defeated said sith lord. The fourth is described as one of the greatest duelists the Order has ever produced. The fifth is the Chosen One, and still lost to Kenobi in their duel.

Your logic doesn't make much sense anyway, since Scourge would also get his ass kicked by any variety of foes from TOR era, and contrary to your subjective opinion, the RotS order > TOR order by canon.

That doesn't make him as good as you are saying (also you're forgetting Dooku). He would still struggle against numerous opponents and Council members.

No he wouldn't.

Originally posted by Master Han
Doesn't change the fact that Kenobi's accolades, from both his peers and his enemies, and also from OOU narrators and encyclopedias, far surpass Scourge's own.

So does Shaak Ti's. Do you think she's whoop Scourges ass too?

And it kind of.... does change the fact. I'm not accepting that stupid 'best soresu master ever' crap anymore, so I'm also not buying that Kenobi's accolade far surpass Scourges. You can pull out that 'one of the greatest swordman in history' quote (Btw, do that. Source and quote please), but thats too ambiguous and can refer to too many people to mean jack shit to me.

Emperor's Wrath >>

Originally posted by Master Han
Quality > quantity.

wallbash

How about actually rebutting my argument instead of recycling trite phrases? Based upon his record and what we can deduce about his abilities, I feel comfortable putting Scourge on the list of greatest of all time.

Prove me wrong. You can't though, because its an ambiguous phrase so Scourge could reasonable be on it depending upon the subjective level of leeway anyone were to give it.

Originally posted by Master Han
And I still don't understand why you arbitrarily declare that any dark council members Scourge has offed match Kenobi in combative ability. I also don't understand why you think the Emperor's Wrath would encounter these foes and attack them in a fair fight, despite his having the Emperor's resources and the element of surprise on his side.

Did I say that? I don't think so. Though certain TOR Council Members certainly are above Kenobi: Jadus, Marr, Nox, Baras, Thanaton. And a bunch of others from history.

And I think that because thats exactly how Scourge operates in the game. When he goes to kill Sajar he simply walks up alone to a heavily defended Republic base to kill him singlehandedly. When he's defending the Emperor he just stands in front of his throne with his lightsaber drawn.

Originally posted by Master Han
OK, let me see if I can get this through to you with this line of questioning. Solve this equation:

(X - Revan Scourge) = (300 years + Vitiate boost)

Where X is a certain combatant at which, in your minds, can defeat the Emperor's Wrath at his peak.

It goes without saying that I would like some reasoning as to why you chose the combatant you will select. We already know that the HoT > X. If you designate RotS Anakin, explain why you picked him, and not, say, RotS Windu. etc.

I don't understand what you're asking me to figure out. Why subtracting Revan!Scourge from X? Thats hardly fair or sensible.

If you want me to give you an estimation of what I believe Scourges level is, I've already said, he's at least as good as Kenobi and Maul, and good enough to give Dooku a good fight.

And I'm not solving that stupid equation because I don't see the relevance or point. Try answering my actual point instead of this nonsensical bullshit:

'Because it is self-evident. Its hardly rocket science here. Scourge had already grown to be a great swordsman in 30 years of his life. Giving him an extra 300 years, ten times that amount, would logically significantly improve his abilities. Now the gap between 'master of multiple forms' Revan!Scourge and Kenobi might be large, but there is no doubt that it would have closed in those 300 years between that and TOR!Scourge. A child could understand this, and obviously you can because I doubt you're actually a dumb as you're coming off as. If someone can reach a certain level of skill in 30 years, then they can obviously improve upon that level quite a ****ing lot with an extra 300 years, with a boost to their capabilities, while constantly making use of that skill and with the finest resources there are to help their improve that skill.'


If someone can grow to a level 5 in 30 years, no shit can they grow to a level 9 in 300. You're being needlessly dim about this and not explaining to me why you don't think its the case that Scourge would reach Kenobi's level in 300 years. So far all you've done is tout Kenobi's accolades without responding to the logical argument I've made. I want you to do this. I want you to logically conclude why Scrouge wouldn't grow from a Juyo master in Revan to being Kenobi level in TOR.

If you don't even bother to do that I won't respond, because you wouldn't have responded to the meat of my argument.

Originally posted by Master Han
Firstly, Marek is not "a cut above" Dooku. Secondly, none of the combatants you mention would lose to Scourge in a duel.

Marek is a cut above Dooku.

That's irrelevant. I'm just pointing out that despite being "the best swordsman in star wars" Kenobi is actually mediocre in the grand scheme of things, making your continual stroking of his accolades quite funny. You're acting as if Kenobi is on a tier that Scourge could never approach when that is patently false and laughable.

How's your back doing?

Originally posted by Nephthys
True, but thats a false comparison. Luke is the very top of the ladder. Kenobi meanwhile is only slightly above Jedi Council level.


How is Kenobi only "slightly above" Jedi Council level? Aside from what would, in other eras, be a once-in-a-millennium Jedi, a 900 year old sage explicitly the most powerful light sider to ever oppose the darkness, and the Chosen One conceived by the Force, Kenobi is a cut above everyone on the most powerful, if not the most competent, High Council shown to date.




"only a bit above" is enough for me; that Scourge can continuously defeat foes with a power level of 8000 does not somehow prove that he can defeat a foe with a power level over 9000.



The formula is not that simple. I can't continuously fight and defeat random street thugs X amount of times and then declare that I can take on Ali in his prime. To use a less exaggerated analogy, that I can continuously bench 300 pounds every day (I can't, BTW) doesn't lead to the conclusion that I can bench 310, except indirectly to build my muscles. If we learn in the rumored Yoda movie that he had once fought a Kenobi-level opponent every day for 200 years, do we now conclude that he can tool LotF Luke and DE Palpatine together by some weird RPG exp-points accumulation?



Above in terms of authority, but from the standpoint of power, Vitiate initially chose Scourge because he trusted him, whereas some of the more powerful members of the dark council simply couldn't be trusted to take the mantle.




That's good for him, but since I never really brought Obi Wan's offensive Force abilities into the mix, and since lightsabers have vastly superior penetrating ability to even OT era blasters...



AotC Obi Wan had Jango Fett on the ropes (see AotC novelization), with Jango only managing to escape with fire support from Slave 1. This same Jango Fett was the one person the Kaminos had chosen as the genetic template for their clone army. He was the last known mandolorian, and had allegedly killed Jedi with his bare hands.



Your only logic to support this contention is to circularly define her victory against Scourge and Exile important. I'd point more solidly toward her getting joke-one-shotted by Revan.



And exactly what of Revan Scourge's feats and accolades that put him anywhere near Kenobi as of AotC, let alone RotS?

Is it being a "master swordsman"? Grievous has tooled Jedi that have tooled Jedi that have been described as master swordsmen, and Obi Wan disarmed half his lightsabers in 25 seconds.

Is it almost dying to a bounty hunter?

Is it losing horribly to a past-her-prime sith lord that later gets one shotted by a drug-addled Revan?

I want some assertive evidence, not excuses and rationalizations for why he doesn't suck (which I never said he did).



I'm not forgetting Dooku. I listed five. Yoda, Palpatine, Windu, Dooku and Anakin.



Wait, hang on a second...so you're admitting that Kenobi has the superior feats and accolades?



You do realize that, whilst "one of the greatest swordsmen in history" is not entirely a solidly defined label, neither is "master swordsmen", which you've used repeatedly, right?

And you already specifically referenced the soresu-master line from the RotS novelization, so IDK why you suddenly want sources.





I've already pointed out that it's possible for Scourge to be at or above Kenobi's level. I've also pointed out that this is true for virtually all matchups in which we can't cross-powerscale and need to speculate from different eras. I've therefore concluded that, based on the feats, accolades and power-scaling we can go by, Kenobi is likely superior to Scourge by a pretty heavy preponderance of evidence.




I see you clearly missed the point, because it addresses precisely the "self evident" argument you make central to your entire argument.

You've "deduced" that Scourge has surpassed Kenobi after 300 years of experience. Here, you proclaim that he could "give Dooku a good fight".

Do you realize how arbitrary this proclamation is? What logic did you use to conclude that the 300 years put him just above Kenobi? Isn't it rather convenient that you came to such a conclusion? If the thread were instead Scourge vs. Shaak Ti, would you have decided that Scourge had done just enough to put him above Shaak Ti after 300 years?

I want you to place Scourge on the PT-era powerscale and explain WHY you placed him there and not somewhere else. Because it seems mighty convenient and arbitrary that you make up some mathematics and conclude that 300 years puts him above Kenobi, instead of just above Shaak Ti, or just above AotC Obi Wan.
\



You see, this is precisely the problem with your thinking here, as is the problem with your otherwise solid debating skills whenever you have to defend any ancient Jedi/Sith that tickles your fancy.

Why do you presume that Scourge is level 9 after 300 years? Why not level 8? Why not level 10? Why not level 242? Oh, you just conveniently conclude that he's grown to just the level so that he could take down Kenobi and give Dooku a good fight. Yet we both damn well know that, if this were Dooku vs Scourge, you'd say that he'd just grown to a point where he could take down Dooku, but not Yoda, etc.



Interesting accusation. Let's analyze the arguments you've made in support of named-ancient-character-195:


He's a juyo master - Kenobi is above plenty of juyo masters. Indeed, Obi Wan himself seems to have a mastery or proficiency of multiple forms, from Soresu to Ataru and jar-kai, djem so, etc, so why do you think he couldn't learn juyo? Soresu simply suits him better. Juyo isn't inherently superior to every other lightsaber form.
He's a master swordsman - I've mocked this enough...
He's on the Exile's level - sadly, the Exile isn't portrayed as being very powerful in the novel.
He's fought lots of powerful Jedi and Sith - yes, but being able to consistently score a 2200 on the SAT doesn't mean that you can just score a 2300 at will by some pseudo-mathematics
After 300 years, he'd have surpassed Obi Wan - really? How arbitrary of you. He's surpassed Obi Wan but not Dooku? Why?

Originally posted by Master Han
How's your back doing?

Still sore.

Originally posted by Master Han
How is Kenobi only "slightly above" Jedi Council level? Aside from what would, in other eras, be a once-in-a-millennium Jedi, a 900 year old sage explicitly the most powerful light sider to ever oppose the darkness, and the Chosen One conceived by the Force, Kenobi is a cut above everyone on the most powerful, if not the most competent, High Council shown to date.

WTF? Kenobi is not a cut above the rest of the Council. He's a bit above them, but as the ROTS Obi Wan Kenobi Vs ROTS Kit Fisto demonstrated Kenobi really is not that far above his peers.

Originally posted by Master Han
"only a bit above" is enough for me; that Scourge can continuously defeat foes with a power level of 8000 does not somehow prove that he can defeat a foe with a power level over 9000.

Well why the hell not? You touch on this in your next paragraph, but obviously fighting a shitton of level 8000's would improve your skills as you do so. I'm not talking about any RPG mechanic experience bullshit, I'm talking about the natural process of learning through doing. Naturally if you swordfight a shitload of people, you'll get better at swordfighting through honing your abilities in combat. The best boxers aren't just big, strong and well trained, they also have a ton of experience fighting other boxers. They know when to attack, when to back off, etc. My argument is that with eleven hundred victories under his belt, Scourge would have gotten ****ing good at fighting people. Its just like his codex entry says, he's got so much experience that he can tell a persons weaknesses in a single glance. The same thing applies to his skills as a lightsaber duelist, which would have been honed to a razor-edge in the heat of battle.

Originally posted by Master Han
The formula is not that simple. I can't continuously fight and defeat random street thugs X amount of times and then declare that I can take on Ali in his prime. To use a less exaggerated analogy, that I can continuously bench 300 pounds every day (I can't, BTW) doesn't lead to the conclusion that I can bench 310, except indirectly to build my muscles. If we learn in the rumored Yoda movie that he had once fought a Kenobi-level opponent every day for 200 years, do we now conclude that he can tool LotF Luke and DE Palpatine together by some weird RPG exp-points accumulation?

Exactly my point, highlighted area! Thank you. Obviously you would be able to bench 310 after continuously excising you muscles in that way. You automatically improve by doing an activity over and over again. You have given me the perfect example of why my argument makes sense. I'm not arguing that he beat all those people because he's better, I'm arguing that he's better because he beat all those people!

Originally posted by Master Han
Above in terms of authority, but from the standpoint of power, Vitiate initially chose Scourge because he trusted him, whereas some of the more powerful members of the dark council simply couldn't be trusted to take the mantle.

And again, the Emperor's Wrath is a higher position than the Dark Council, so that he can act above and against the Council if he so needs to. The whole point of the Wrath is to keep over-ambitious DC members in line or to execute them if they cross said line. Theres a reason his entry says "Even the most powerful members of the Dark Council avoid offending the man bearing the title "the Emperor's Wrath."

Originally posted by Master Han
That's good for him, but since I never really brought Obi Wan's offensive Force abilities into the mix, and since lightsabers have vastly superior penetrating ability to even OT era blasters...

Except that personal shield generators have been known to block lightsabers:

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100107141314/starwars/images/thumb/2/29/Energy_Shield.jpg/180px-Energy_Shield.jpg

Lightsaber tech hasn't improved between Kotor and the OT and as of Kotor personal shields are used to defend against lightsabers.

Originally posted by Master Han
AotC Obi Wan had Jango Fett on the ropes (see AotC novelization), with Jango only managing to escape with fire support from Slave 1. This same Jango Fett was the one person the Kaminos had chosen as the genetic template for their clone army. He was the last known mandolorian, and had allegedly killed Jedi with his bare hands.

Obi-Wan still struggled with him and almost died in that fight. Same with Scourge. TOR-era Bounty Hunters take out better Jedi than AotC Kenobi anyway.

Originally posted by Master Han
Your only logic to support this contention is to circularly define her victory against Scourge and Exile important. I'd point more solidly toward her getting joke-one-shotted by Revan.

Revan didn't one-shot her himself. And as I've said, the Exile is a ****ing amazing Jedi who's defeated entire Sith Temples and owned Traya and Sion repeatedly one after each other. Nyriss humiliating her is like if a new character appeared on CW and beat Ventress* in 5 seconds, while also beating up Plo Koon or something. You're damn right that would make us sit up. She owned the Exile in a single attack, when Kreia (who killed 10 Sith assassins just by walking passed them) couldn't do that to the Exile and got her ass kicked by her.

Its not that she just beat those two. Its that she completely owned them, with the Exile being demonstrably ****ing powerful. At the very least you have to admit that she's Jedi Council level. And anyone who can casually own a Jedi Council level opponent is pretty damn good.

*Being generous with Ventress.

Originally posted by Master Han
And exactly what of Revan Scourge's feats and accolades that put him anywhere near Kenobi as of AotC, let alone RotS?

Is it being a "master swordsman"? Grievous has tooled Jedi that have tooled Jedi that have been described as master swordsmen, and Obi Wan disarmed half his lightsabers in 25 seconds.

Is it almost dying to a bounty hunter?

Is it losing horribly to a past-her-prime sith lord that later gets one shotted by a drug-addled Revan?

I want some assertive evidence, not excuses and rationalizations for why he doesn't suck (which I never said he did).

He's a Juyo master. 'High-end master of multiple forms.' How many forms has Kenobi mastered as of AotC again? Is it more than one? I'm only pointing out his level of skill here. But, he's clearly powerful enough for Vitiate to be aware of him and to choose him for important shit in the book and to be his Wrath. He's strong enough to kill a man by crushing his head with his foot. Powerful enough to shatter metal with his TK. Fast enough to outrun automated speeder cannons. Implied to be near to or equal to the Exile so I've heard. He also beat the leader of the Imperial Guards plus another Guard in raw swordsmanship. You might snigger, but the Imperial Guards are the finest warriors in the galaxy, 'unmatched in martial skill' and can draw on Vitiates power.

You're definitely implying that he sucks if you don't even think he's near AotC Kenobi, who I recall as being a terribly average Jedi Master.

Originally posted by Master Han
I'm not forgetting Dooku. I listed five. Yoda, Palpatine, Windu, Dooku and Anakin.

Oh. I thought you meant Kit Fisto.


...... Ok, you forgot Kit Fisto then.

Originally posted by Master Han
Wait, hang on a second...so you're admitting that Kenobi has the superior feats and accolades?

No, you know what I mean. I'm pointing out that the 'greatest swordsman ever' line can apply to her as well. Does she whoop Scourge too or not?

Originally posted by Master Han
You do realize that, whilst "one of the greatest swordsmen in history" is not entirely a solidly defined label, neither is "master swordsmen", which you've used repeatedly, right?

And you already specifically referenced the soresu-master line from the RotS novelization, so IDK why you suddenly want sources.

Funny, I just checked the thread and I've only used that phrase once, in response to you using it. And no, since I've repeatedly clarified that I rank Scourge as such because he's a 'high-end master of multiple forms' (specifically, Soresu and Ataru not counting Juyo as well obviously). I'd say thats rather solidly defined.

I'm talking about your source for Kenobi being one of the greatest swordsman of all time. You know, the thing you've been throwing in my face so much. That is an actual quote right? It wasn't-it wasn't just the Mace Windu thing right???

Oh my, if thats it.......

Originally posted by Master Han
I've already pointed out that it's possible for Scourge to be at or above Kenobi's level. I've also pointed out that this is true for virtually all matchups in which we can't cross-powerscale and need to speculate from different eras. I've therefore concluded that, based on the feats, accolades and power-scaling we can go by, Kenobi is likely superior to Scourge by a pretty heavy preponderance of evidence.

Good. So if you can accept the possibility of it being true, all thats left is for you to engage with the logic I am putting forward and actually respond to that instead of only looking at feats and accolades.

Originally posted by Master Han
I see you clearly missed the point, because it addresses precisely the "self evident" argument you make central to your entire argument.

You've "deduced" that Scourge has surpassed Kenobi after 300 years of experience. Here, you proclaim that he could "give Dooku a good fight".

Do you realize how arbitrary this proclamation is? What logic did you use to conclude that the 300 years put him just above Kenobi? Isn't it rather convenient that you came to such a conclusion? If the thread were instead Scourge vs. Shaak Ti, would you have decided that Scourge had done just enough to put him above Shaak Ti after 300 years?

I want you to place Scourge on the PT-era powerscale and explain WHY you placed him there and not somewhere else. Because it seems mighty convenient and arbitrary that you make up some mathematics and conclude that 300 years puts him above Kenobi, instead of just above Shaak Ti, or just above AotC Obi Wan.
\

Um hello? You yourself used the 'self-evident' argument to say that 'one of the greatest of all time' is above 'master swordsman' and 'instructor's hesitant to face him'. Why did you come to that decision? Because you used your intuition. You intuitively weighed them in you head and came to a decision about which is superior, like if you were asked to decide if disintegrating a boulder or shattering it was more impressive. Theres nothing arbitrary there, you're simply weighing the evidence and coming to a conclusion.

I say he could because Scourge is clearly a great combatant who nonetheless is below the Hero of Tython as of Act 2. I say it because of his rank at or above high-end Dark Council tier, about where Dooku would go as a combatant. I say it because no matter what I logically deduce, Dooku is powerful enough that I wouldn't put Scourge above him without the feats to back it up. Kenobi isn't as powerful as Dooku though, nor is he as fast and skilled as he is. That is why when weighing it up I put Scourge as about between them or on Kenobi's level.

Really though I'm trying not to be as fair as possible. I'm saying that Scourge is on Kenobi's level because I think that he would have at least have bridged the gap from Revan!Scourge to Kenobi as of TOR. Anything else would require a higher burden of proof than I am capable of giving. I think that its only reasonable to conclude that someone would grow from an excellent swordsman as of Revan to a Kenobi-level one as of TOR, based on the evidence I've given. Personally I think that in all that time he likely would have mastered ALL lightsaber forms given that he mastered 3 of them in a tenth of the time! Which would make him much more skilled than Kenobi. I'm not pushing my luck though. I'm saying that he's as good as Kenobi because that is the lowest that I think he could possibly be at after those 300 years and the highest I can actually argue him to be at based upon the evidence that I have. *

And yes, I would say Scourge is above Shaak Ti.


*Depending on if you think Maul is above Kenobi. I'm also arguing that Scourge is about on Mauls level in the other thread.

Originally posted by Master Han
You see, this is precisely the problem with your thinking here, as is the problem with your otherwise solid debating skills whenever you have to defend any ancient Jedi/Sith that tickles your fancy.

Why do you presume that Scourge is level 9 after 300 years? Why not level 8? Why not level 10? Why not level 242? Oh, you just conveniently conclude that he's grown to just the level so that he could take down Kenobi and give Dooku a good fight. Yet we both damn well know that, if this were Dooku vs Scourge, you'd say that he'd just grown to a point where he could take down Dooku, but not Yoda, etc.

He's not a level 10 because the Hero of Tython beat him.

Looks like you didn't do your homework because I have in fact argued Scourge vs Dooku and the most I said was that Scourge can give him a good fight.

Originally posted by Master Han
Interesting accusation. Let's analyze the arguments you've made in support of named-ancient-character-195:


He's a juyo master - Kenobi is above plenty of juyo masters. Indeed, Obi Wan himself seems to have a mastery or proficiency of multiple forms, from Soresu to Ataru and jar-kai, djem so, etc, so why do you think he couldn't learn juyo? Soresu simply suits him better. Juyo isn't inherently superior to every other lightsaber form.
He's a master swordsman - I've mocked this enough...
He's on the Exile's level - sadly, the Exile isn't portrayed as being very powerful in the novel.
He's fought lots of powerful Jedi and Sith - yes, but being able to consistently score a 2200 on the SAT doesn't mean that you can just score a 2300 at will by some pseudo-mathematics
After 300 years, he'd have surpassed Obi Wan - really? How arbitrary of you. He's surpassed Obi Wan but not Dooku? Why?


* The Juyo thing is only relevant in that it establishes Scourge as a skilled lightsaber duelist. You can say 'oh kenobi can beat plenty of-' thats not the ****ing point! The point is that he's incredibly skilled to have mastered multiple lightsaber forms to a very high degree. Its establishing that Scourge is a very skilled lightsaber duelist. So that you cannot just brush off his skills, as you are doing, and ignore that even as of Revan Scourge had mastered multiple forms to very high degrees. Yes, Kenobi is an Ataru and Soresu master. Guess what? So is Scourge. Just as of Revan. I'm establishing a baseline for his abilities. And Juyo is superior to other lightsaber forms because to master it you need to be significantly excellent with several other forms, meaning that being a Juyo master in of itself indicates a higher level of skill than merely being a Soresu master. You might not actually more skilled, but by itself it does indicate a higher level of skill.
* I said that once.
* Well too bad, because she is very powerful as of canon. She's not portrayed as canon because Karpyshan, as he has admitted, hardly knew a thing about her. Her appearing weak can be blamed on him being uninformed of her abilities, not on her actually be not very powerful. Canonically, she still shitstomped the Trayas Academy and Traya and Sion on the most powerful Darkside nexus in the galaxy (other than Nathema I think). She's still a better telepath after one training session than Mrs. Talk across the galaxy. She stilll has advanced Battle Precognition. She's still a master of about 8 different lightsaber and force forms.
* A persons abilities expand and mature through use. Fighting over a thousand powerful opponents would naturally improve your abilities vastly.
* How powerful do you think he would have gotten?

Neph, you still haven't replied to my PM.

Do it!

You also forgot to mention that he was Scourge's equal as of Revan. Scourge became more powerful after that. So no, he's not on the Exile's level. As of TOR, he's better. And the Exile is considerably powerful. The fact that he became more powerful than her is an indication of his skills.

Do you mean he's the Exiles equal?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Neph, you still haven't replied to my PM.

Do it!

Don't PRESSURE ME!!!!!

http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/scratch/room104.gif

RAAARARRAAUUUAAAAUUAGHGHGGHGGGGHHGH!

No, I mean he isn't. I mean he's more powerful, because he was the Exile's equal as of Revan. As of TOR, he's more skilled.

Oh jesus I made a lot of typos in that response. Shit my ****ing ballsack.

Apparently there are millions of Sith vying for a place on the Dark Council at any time.....

Meaning Vitiates Empire is composed of millions of Sith. Huh.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Um hello? You yourself used the 'self-evident' argument to say that 'one of the greatest of all time' is above 'master swordsman' and 'instructor's hesitant to face him'.

I wasn't under the impression that you contested this, since you admitted that Obi Wan > Scourge in terms of feats and accolades.





Yeah, nice try...but no.



Good.

So we know that Scourge < (pre-peak) HoT.

This establishes an upper limit to his abilities. Nowhere is a lower limit established that would justify your putting him above Kenobi.



Begging the question. Dooku would trash everyone on the (dueling prime-age) RotS council barring Yoda and Windu, the former of which is an exceptional case, and the latter of which only really surpasses him by RotS.



OK, and here's the issue (again) with your line of logic.

Why can't I substitute "Dooku" with "Kenobi" and "Kenobi" with "Shaak Ti"?

Isn't it mightily convenient that you happen to state that 300 years puts him above Kenobi, but not Dooku, or Revan, or Plagueis? Why not? Because you say so? Because it just happens to fit your stance in this particular thread?



Circular logic. Why do you insist on justifying your primary contention by restating it in a slightly different tone?

And why do you think you can get away with calling it "self evident" that TOR Scourge > Kenobi, but not that TOR Scourge > Dooku?



Well, you've shifted your position again, since you'd earlier been quite confident in putting him solidly above Kenobi. Now, however, I would like you to explain, without using your contention to support itself, why Kenobi just happens to be the lowest you could place him.



Why?



OK, let's say HoT is level 10 at that stage and Kenobi is level 6. Explain why you put Scourge at level 6/7 and not, say, 8, or 4.



Where do I ever deny this? This seems to be nothing more than a bare minimum to prove that Scourge can last at least 5 seconds against Kenobi, yet you continue to bring it up as a core contention.



Even ignoring your casual throwing out of canon evidence because you personally disagree with it, you do realize that, if you consider the Exile's portrayal in Revan to be antithetical to her demonstrated power in KOTOR, we must conclude that we cannot draw conclusions from Karpyshan's putting Scourge on Meetra's level by the same logic, right?



That's what I've constantly asked you. I'd say that he should be on the level of Qui Gon Jinn or mid CW Obi Wan to be able to keep most of the council in line.

You only replied to a tiny portion of my response. >:C

Feel free to show me the portions I snipped that I could not have done for the sake of avoiding redundancies. I think I address your relevant contentions just fine.

You should reply to my point about Scourges experiences exercising him like a person working out exercising his muscles.

Also the stuff about him beating the Imperial Guard. Because I have a sweet quote about them that makes Scourge look really impressive to have beaten those 2 Guardsmen in Revan.

Originally posted by Master Han
I wasn't under the impression that you contested this, since you admitted that Obi Wan > Scourge in terms of feats and accolades.

I'm not contesting it, I'm using it to make a point.

Originally posted by Master Han


Yeah, nice try...but no.

Yes. You didn't examine why that description trumps the others, you said it was self-evident. You used you intuition to weigh those quotes and you intuitively knew which was superior. Admit it, you filthy hypocrite! ADMIT IT!

Originally posted by Master Han
Good.

So we know that Scourge < (pre-peak) HoT.

This establishes an upper limit to his abilities. Nowhere is a lower limit established that would justify your putting him above Kenobi.

Actually there is, as I explained to you:


"Really though I'm trying not to be as fair as possible. I'm saying that Scourge is on Kenobi's level because I think that he would have at least have bridged the gap from Revan!Scourge to Kenobi as of TOR. Anything else would require a higher burden of proof than I am capable of giving. I think that its only reasonable to conclude that someone would grow from an excellent swordsman as of Revan to a Kenobi-level one as of TOR, based on the evidence I've given. Personally I think that in all that time he likely would have mastered ALL lightsaber forms given that he mastered 3 of them in a tenth of the time! Which would make him much more skilled than Kenobi. I'm not pushing my luck though. I'm saying that he's as good as Kenobi because that is the lowest that I think he could possibly be at after those 300 years and the highest I can actually argue him to be at based upon the evidence that I have."

The lower limit is Kenobi.

Originally posted by Master Han
Begging the question. Dooku would trash everyone on the (dueling prime-age) RotS council barring Yoda and Windu, the former of which is an exceptional case, and the latter of which only really surpasses him by RotS.

As I said, yeah, about high Dark Council level. Scourge's job is to partially to watch over the Dark Council (as said in SWTORE) and his codex entry says that "Even the most powerful members of the Dark Council avoid offending the man bearing the title "the Emperor's Wrath."

I already listed why I put the upper-tier Council members on Dooku's tier. Jadus can teleport and blocked his 600 meter long ship from disintegration. Marr can rout entire armies and is the defacto no2 in the Empire. Nox wields the power of 5 Sith Lords and is borderline invulnerable. Baras fought and rivaled Satale in her peak. Nyriss shat on the Exile. The Dark Council is the best among millions of powerful Sith. Dooku being in their upper echelons is about right imo.

Originally posted by Master Han
OK, and here's the issue (again) with your line of logic.

Why can't I substitute "Dooku" with "Kenobi" and "Kenobi" with "Shaak Ti"?

Isn't it mightily convenient that you happen to state that 300 years puts him above Kenobi, but not Dooku, or Revan, or Plagueis? Why not? Because you say so? Because it just happens to fit your stance in this particular thread?

I explain why. Asking me this is pointless.

What does this matter? The only relevant factor is if Scourge is better than Kenobi. It isn't just because its my stance in this thread. As I said, so check my other thread on Scourge, I rate him exactly as high as I do here.

Originally posted by Master Han
Circular logic. Why do you insist on justifying your primary contention by restating it in a slightly different tone?

And why do you think you can get away with calling it "self evident" that TOR Scourge > Kenobi, but not that TOR Scourge > Dooku?

Because Dooku is a superior swordsman to Kenobi. Theres a higher burden of proof to make that claim than to claim than he's above Kenobi.

Originally posted by Master Han
Well, you've shifted your position again, since you'd earlier been quite confident in putting him solidly above Kenobi. Now, however, I would like you to explain, without using your contention to support itself, why Kenobi just happens to be the lowest you could place him.

I've already said. Goddamn, this reply is completely worthless, you're just making me say things I already said in the last one. Kenobi is the lowest because the lowest Scourge could possibly improve would be to his level. It is completely ****ing retarded to think that Scourge could become a high level master of 3 forms in 30 years and not go from that to being a top-tier master in at least one form like Kenobi, in three hundred years.

Originally posted by Master Han
Why?

Derp. Someones not being paying attention to every ****ing thing I've said which explains to you why I would say that.

Originally posted by Master Han
OK, let's say HoT is level 10 at that stage and Kenobi is level 6. Explain why you put Scourge at level 6/7 and not, say, 8, or 4.

I did.

Originally posted by Master Han
Where do I ever deny this? This seems to be nothing more than a bare minimum to prove that Scourge can last at least 5 seconds against Kenobi, yet you continue to bring it up as a core contention.

http://philly.barstoolsports.com/files/2013/01/Antoine-Dodson-Dumb.gif

I KNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW! I know. Because it is the bare minimum Scourge is at THREE. HUNDRED. YEARS. BEFORE HIS PRIME. How many times do I have to say it!? Do I have to literally write it on your brain with my bare hands before you understand the words that I am saying?

Scourge is at a certain level at Revan. The reason I bring it up is because I'm establishing what that level is. So that I can establish that as the baseline for his abilities to grow from to TOR. Also, no Kenobi couldn't own a person highly skilled in 3 different forms in 5 seconds, don't be ridiculous.

Originally posted by Master Han
Even ignoring your casual throwing out of canon evidence because you personally disagree with it, you do realize that, if you consider the Exile's portrayal in Revan to be antithetical to her demonstrated power in KOTOR, we must conclude that we cannot draw conclusions from Karpyshan's putting Scourge on Meetra's level by the same logic, right?

I... know. I've already said that I'm deeply skeptical about it and wouldn't put them on the same level. There was still a comparison made though, and thats still worth noting in his favor.

Originally posted by Master Han
That's what I've constantly asked you. I'd say that he should be on the level of Qui Gon Jinn or mid CW Obi Wan to be able to keep most of the council in line.

And I answered. Then I asked it back.

Also Qui-Gon Jinn sucks and Scourge who own him. Jinn couldn't keep the Council in line, wtf are you smoking?

Oh, for ****'s sake.

Me: How can Scourge beat Kenobi with inferior feats and accolades?
You: Because he's had 300 years of experience.
Me: How do you know this is enough to put him above Kenobi?
You: Because he's had 300 years of experience.
Me: So, would you put him above Dooku?
You: Nah.
Me: Why not?
You: Because Dooku > Obi Wan.
Me: OK...so why is the cutoff at Obi Wan? Why not Shaak Ti? Why not Dooku?
You: I don't understand what you're saying!
Me: Why is Scourge on Obi Wan's level, but not Dooku's?
You: Because 300 years is enough to put him on Obi Wan's level, but not Dooku's.
Me: How do you know this?
You: Because Dooku > Obi Wan!
Me: So...Obi Wan > Shaak Ti, so does this mean that Obi Wan > Scourge?
You: No!
Me: So why Obi Wan?
You: Because he's had 300 years of experience!

Can you please actually justify your assertion that Obi Wan < Scourge + 300 years < Dooku WITHOUT USING YOUR ASSERTION TO JUSTIFY ITSELF?

Originally posted by Nephthys
You should reply to my point about Scourges experiences exercising him like a person working out exercising his muscles.


Said Vodo to Exar Kun.



So what? Obi Wan's casually beaten two magnaguards.

You suck.

Imperial Guards > Magnaguards.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You suck.

Funny, coming from someone who claims that 300 years + Revan Scourge > Obi Wan...because 300 years + Revan Scourge > Obi Wan. You've literally devolved into using your contention to prove itself, in a chain of logic that you could find used in a ****ing textbook under "circular logic".

Why do you conclude: Obi Wan < Scourge < Dooku? Why not, Shaak Ti < Scourge < Obi Wan? Why not, Dooku < Scourge < Yoda? Oh, because you arbitrarily put your favorite character in convenient categories for your debating convenience.

gotta agree with Han on this, experience isnt all as much as u think, considering 1400 yr old vitiate< palpatine

Thats just not true, Han.

It isn't convenience, its how far I'm willing to argue Scourge as being. Personally I think he probably is more skilled overall than Dooku (outside of Makashi cuz Dooku is straight up the bomb with Makashi), but I can't actually argue that with the evidence I have. You won't even accept that he's Obi-Wan level, how the **** could I reasonably argue he's above Dooku?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats just not true, Han.

It isn't convenience, its how far I'm willing to argue Scourge as being. Personally I think he probably is more skilled overall than Dooku (outside of Makashi cuz Dooku is straight up the bomb with Makashi), but I can't actually argue that with the evidence I have. You won't even accept that he's Obi-Wan level, how the **** could I reasonably argue he's above Dooku?

OK, Nephthys. So, give an argument to support your contention that 300 years of experience would be sufficient to put Scourge above Obi Wan.

Hint: the answer cannot be because "300 years of experience would be sufficient to put Scourge above Obi Wan".

Scourge became a high end master of 3 forms as of Revan, in which he is approximately 30 years old. With ten times that amount of time between Revan and TOR and with several factors that would increase his ability to improve his skills, its childishly simple to deduce that his skills would multiply a few times, putting him above Kenobi in terms of skill.

Boom. I win.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Scourge became a high end master of 3 forms as of Revan, in which he is approximately 30 years old.

Eh...isn't Obi Wan only 33 by RotS, by which he's already a "high end" master of >3 forms? They're basically the same age.



"multiply a few times" to put him above Kenobi? Why not Dooku? Why not Yoda? Why arbitrarily stop it at Kenobi? That's the problem with your argument; it's entirely ****ing arbitrary.

Also, you're assuming that Scourge will continuously grow stronger and stronger throughout the 3 centuries without eventually plateauing, which doesn't fit what we've come to see from combatants, which is that everyone eventually hits a peak and declines from there. And whereas Scourge, being essentially immortal, may not decline in ability, there's going to reach a point where he simply can't get any higher.

BTW...you really just restated your contention to prove itself, yet again. All you did was add in the "high end master of 3 forms" gig, which doesn't really matter much on this level.

kinda like how vitiate had about 17.5 times as much time to become greater than palpatine. oh wait...

Edit: yeah han's kinda right, that'd most likely be a no limits fallacy

It isn't a no-limits fallacy since there is a limit:

Complete mastery of all forms.

Originally posted by Master Han
Eh...isn't Obi Wan only 33 by RotS, by which he's already a "high end" master of >3 forms? They're basically the same age.

I don't think Kenobi is a "high end" master of >3 forms as of RotS? And yeah, Kenobi is better than Scourge is in Revan. Whats you point?

Originally posted by Master Han
"multiply a few times" to put him above Kenobi? Why not Dooku? Why not Yoda? Why arbitrarily stop it at Kenobi? That's the problem with your argument; it's entirely ****ing arbitrary.

Also, you're assuming that Scourge will continuously grow stronger and stronger throughout the 3 centuries without eventually plateauing, which doesn't fit what we've come to see from combatants, which is that everyone eventually hits a peak and declines from there. And whereas Scourge, being essentially immortal, may not decline in ability, there's going to reach a point where he simply can't get any higher.

BTW...you really just restated your contention to prove itself, yet again. All you did was add in the "high end master of 3 forms" gig, which doesn't really matter much.

Fine, put him above them if you want! I don't care!

You're right, he might..... after eclipsing Kenobi in skill obviously. To plateau like that he would have to master all lightsaber forms to the highest degree, otherwise obviously you wouldn't plateau since there'd be more to learn. Besides, Kenobi isn't so good that someone can't get better than him in 300 years, when they're already a great duelist to begin with. If Kenobi can get to that level in a mere 30 years then I don't see why Scourge couldn't in 300, when he's supposed to learn quicker as a Sith.

It does. Its logical to assume that if someone can reach a high level of skill in 30 years then he could reach a much, much higher level of skill in 300 years.

ur so insane if u think scourge>yoda, experience doesnt mean NEARLY as much as u think it is, sid> vitiate, even tho vitiate has had MUCH more time to improve than palps

Yoda actually is a complete master of all forms so I don't see how I'd think that. Probably because he's had hundreds of years of practise! :O

Besides being more powerful and faster, obviously.

yeah, and there were people who were stronger than yoda, despite him having MUCH more experience

But not in having a complete mastery of all lightsaber forms.

It isn't about experience. Its about Scourge already being a great duelist in Revan, and thus we can logically deduce that if he continues to develop his skillz over 300 extra years that said skillz will develop a ****ing lot. Because he fights a shitton, has unlimited resources, and has a good reason to train.

again, not neccessarily true, as said with vitiate analogy. he's not better than palpatine in saber combat or command of the force, yet he's had a MUCH longer time to develop such abilities. plus u have to consider that scourge with 300 years of improving lost to a very young mary sue of tython

Yeah, because maybe he plateaued. Sidious is at the top, so it makes passable sense that Vitiate wouldn't surpass him despite all the time cuz the top is the top.

That doesn't apply to Kenobi though, because he isn't at the top and Scourge can very easily surpass him if he so much as improved as much in the first 30 years of being the Wrath as he did in beforehand.

Also, yeah HoT beat him because she's really damn powerful. That doesn't apply to Kenobi though because Kenobi is not that powerful.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
plus u have to consider that scourge with 300 years of improving lost to a very young mary sue of tython

I editted.

maybe compared to prime hero, but who's to say that the hero at that time is stronger than kenobi? The hero is significantly weaker at that time than in his/her prime

Edit: btw, how did this whole argument start again? team 2 most likely wins

Who's to say she wasn't?

Kenobi has far superior accolades, plus:
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The hero is significantly weaker at that time than in his/her prime

Edit: plus, we don't know when scourge peaks, so i am not going to argue this further

Originally posted by Nephthys
It isn't a no-limits fallacy since there is a limit:

Complete mastery of all forms.


No, that just isn't true. Like it or not, there's a certain limit to how good you can get at something, limits that are, if not absolute, large enough that even 3 centuries won't get you past it, ie. law of diminishing returns. Otherwise, Vodo would have kicked Exar Kun's ass.

And you still haven't explained why this logic also doesn't put Scourge above Dooku. After all, by your logic, he'd have mastered everything by then, right?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Edit: btw, how did this whole argument start again? team 2 most likely wins

Yeah, earlier I thought it would be a closer fight, until I was informed that the Hero of Tython only defeated the Emperor under conditional circumstances. He/she dies to Sidious, and Kenobi defeats Scourge. Or, Scourge lasts five seconds against Palpatine, and then the two double-team HoT.

Originally posted by Master Han
No, that just isn't true. Like it or not, there's a certain limit to how good you can get at something, limits that are, if not absolute, large enough that even 3 centuries won't get you past it, ie. law of diminishing returns. Otherwise, Vodo would have kicked Exar Kun's ass.

And you still haven't explained why this logic also doesn't put Scourge above Dooku. After all, by your logic, he'd have mastered everything by then, right?

Which only applies to each form individually. Its not like Scourge will master 2 more of them then like, his brain won't be able to contain the other ones. And he's already shown he's a skilled enough swordsman to master 3 forms in a tenth of the time, so its dumb to think he just... won't be able to grasp the other ones. Particularly since Shii-Cho and Niman are the easiest by far, whereas Juyo is the hardest and he's already proficient in it.

I never said it didn't. I only said I wouldn't argue him to be above Dooku. In fact I specifically said that personally I do think he'd be more skilled than Dooku on the other page. My personal opinions don't supersede what I can actually argue in good conscience.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which only applies to each form individually. Its not like Scourge will master 2 more of them then like, his brain won't be able to contain the other ones. And he's already shown he's a skilled enough swordsman to master 3 forms in a tenth of the time, so its dumb to think he just... won't be able to grasp the other ones. Particularly since Shii-Cho and Niman are the easiest by far, whereas Juyo is the hardest and he's already proficient in it.


I'm pretty sure Kenobi isn't the only duelist in history, or even in his time, to have mastered Soresu, yet he's solidly considered to be perhaps its greatest practitioner. The reason here being that he simply has a natural affinity for the form that may very well be beyond what Scourge can accomplish, even with an order of magnitude longer time to train. See Exar Kun vs. Vodo. See Vader vs. Cin Drallig. Or even Palpatine vs. Yoda.

I mean, with respect, if you could somehow study chess for three centuries, I still don't think you would beat Garry Kasparov.



And why is Kenobi arbitrarily the limit to where you can argue with good conscience? Why doesn't the "self evident" logic work equally well against Dooku? And yet again, to save myself from reading a redundant reply, it can't be "because Dooku is more powerful than Obi Wan".

Originally posted by Nephthys
My personal opinions don't supersede what I can actually argue in good conscience.

lmao

Good to see you're reading along. Do you have a say in this?

Originally posted by Master Han
I'm pretty sure Kenobi isn't the only duelist in history, or even in his time, to have mastered Soresu, yet he's solidly considered to be perhaps its greatest practitioner. The reason here being that he simply has a natural affinity for the form that may very well be beyond what Scourge can accomplish, even with an order of magnitude longer time to train. See Exar Kun vs. Vodo. See Vader vs. Cin Drallig. Or even Palpatine vs. Yoda.

I mean, with respect, if you could somehow study chess for three centuries, I still don't think you would beat Garry Kasparov.



And why is Kenobi arbitrarily the limit to where you can argue with good conscience? Why doesn't the "self evident" logic work equally well against Dooku? And yet again, to save myself from reading a redundant reply, it can't be "because Dooku is more powerful than Obi Wan".

'Perhaps.' Would you consider Kenobi more skilled than Yoda, who's claim to fame is a mastery of all forms, because of his 'natural affinity' with Soresu that Yoda lacks in regards to, say, Ataru? Surely someone with more skills is to be considered more 'skilled'.

And stop bringing up Vodo. Theres no indication that Vodo was a dedicated duelist or honed his skill over the centuries. He fought with a ****ing stick for gods sakes and Kun beat him through simple brute force and immense power, not skill. Likewise Vader is more powerful than Drallig. Palpatine and Yoda are about tied in skill and Yoda beat him regardless.


If I were already a chess master and I did that, **** yes I could.



Because as I said, Kenobi is the lowest Scourge could possibly be at. I don't understand, do you want me to argue him as being higher? Or is this just another rant about it being 'arbitrary'?

Originally posted by Nephthys
'Perhaps.' Would you consider Kenobi more skilled than Yoda, who's claim to fame is a mastery of all forms, because of his 'natural affinity' with Soresu that Yoda lacks in regards to, say, Ataru? Surely someone with more skills is to be considered more 'skilled'.


No, Yoda's explicitly stated to be a prodigious swordsman who is above Obi Wan (and anyone else in the prequels).



Vodo is described as having "the skill of long experience". If he had studied dueling for even 5% of his Jedi career, you'd imagine that he'd be able to give Exar Kun a good fight. You'd be wrong.



Actually...that's debatable. Short of advancing computer technology to decode all of Garry's moves and playing styles.



Careful, you're responding to my request for proof of your contention by restating your contention.

Originally posted by Master Han
No, Yoda's explicitly stated to be a prodigious swordsman who is above Obi Wan (and anyone else in the prequels).

Ignoring that, if all we knew of Yoda's skill was having complete mastery of all forms, would you place him below or above Kenobi?

(This is an example. Answer the example instead of weasling out of it by going 'well yoda beat dooku' or stuff)

Originally posted by Master Han
Vodo is described as having "the skill of long experience". If he had studied dueling for even 5% of his Jedi career, you'd imagine that he'd be able to give Exar Kun a good fight. You'd be wrong.

As I said, Exar Kun beat him through brute force and power, not skill. Also he did give him a good fight.

Originally posted by Master Han
Actually...that's debatable. Short of advancing computer technology to decode all of Garry's moves and playing styles.

Nah, I could win.

Originally posted by Master Han
Careful, you're responding to my request for proof of your contention by restating your contention.

No I'm not, I'm restating an argument I've already made, which is that in the space of 300 years, the absolute minimum Scourges skills could have improved would have been up to Kenobi's level based upon his already demonstrated rate of growth.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ignoring that, if all we knew of Yoda's skill was having complete mastery of all forms, would you place him below or above Kenobi?


I'd label him an unknown and cite forum policy, since we know from just this information not his age or position, nor do we possess any feats or accolades beyond "complete" mastery of "all" forms.

The ambiguous word "complete" aside, however, if I had to hazard a guess, I'd put this conditional Yoda below Obi wan, in that, based on his known abilities, he's probably inferior to Kenobi.

Now before you jump on me and declare victory by pointing out that my logic must fail because Yoda is certainly above Obi Wan, note that the Yoda we know is only one of a wide spectrum of possible "Yoda's" that could exist within the parameters of your description. Cin Drallig would qualify as well, and he's not on RotS Obi Wan's level. Magnaguards are programmed with knowledge of all 7 lightsaber forms, but Obi Wan easily defeats them in pairs.



Are you suggesting that Vodo was more skilled than Exar Kun?



In all seriousness, no, you could not, not unless if you were already a high tier grandmaster. Scourge as of Revan would be analogous to a talented and respectable chess master who would nonetheless not take away any wins against Obi Wan.

Now; Yoda, after 8 centuries of studying the Force, could not defeat the Palpatine we see in Dark Empire, possibly not even if he were in his physical prime.



And I'm asking you to prove that your argument is true, since it is founded on the assumption that 300 years would bridge the gap between Scourge and Kenobi. Your response has been to...just declare that it would bridge the gap, because you say-so.

I'm not asking for proof of your overarching argument, but rather your sub-contention that 300 years + Revan Scourge > Obi Wan. You sound like:

You: in the space of 300 years, the absolute minimum Scourges skills could have improved would have been up to Kenobi's level based upon his already demonstrated rate of growth.
Me: Prove it.
You: in the space of 300 years, the absolute minimum Scourges skills could have improved would have been up to Kenobi's level based upon his already demonstrated rate of growth.