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Okay so he gets full rest inbetween each match!. How far does he go!. After each match his health is restored and all injuries are cured and he is not tired at all.

1.Ki Adi Mundi
2.Saesee Tiin
3.Agen Kolar
4.Kit Fisto
5.Darth Wyrrlok
6.Darth Krayt
7.Ro2 Bane(Without Orbalisks)
8.Darth Plagueis
9.Yoda
10.He clears

SO! were does he fall!.

I say he falls at maybe 7 if not then he falls at 8 no doubt.

Gets to Yoda IMO.

Originally posted by ares834
Gets to Yoda IMO.

You think he beats Plagueis!?.

Sure.

Gets to Yoda, based off of what I know about Plaguis.

Mace falls at Yoda.

Kinda defeats the purpose of a gauntlet if you have such easy opponents yet with full rest in between. He makes it to Bane at the very least and dies at Yoda tops.

Originally posted by Based
Kinda defeats the purpose of a gauntlet if you have such easy opponents yet with full rest in between. He makes it to Bane at the very least and dies at Yoda tops.

5 and 6 are good fighters. The first few are just warm ups.

It'll be more interesting if Mace wasn't fully healed after each fight.

Gets destroyed at orbalisk Bane.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Gets destroyed at orbalisk Bane.

In this scenario he dosint have his orbalisks.

My bad. Gets destroyed at Plagueis then.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
My bad. Gets destroyed at Plagueis then.

Agreed. At first I put Orbalisk Bane and voted for Bane then took him out to make it fairer, lol.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
My bad. Gets destroyed at Plagueis then.
Mace isn't getting destroyed. He's at least Plagueis' superior in sabers based on feats.

He probably is. Plagueis is just too powerful for Mace.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He probably is. Plagueis is just too powerful for Mace.
In the force? Vaapad allowed Mace to face off against Sidious and gain an advantage and Sidious>Plagueis.

I hate that every discussion regarding Mace comes down to his fight with Sidious. -_-

I'm sure there's a Plagueis vs. Mace thread done before.
I recall that the breathing mask weakness gave Mace an advantage.

Have no idea how it would give Mace an advantage.

He falls at Plagueis. From what i heard, Plagueis might be able to take advantage over TM Sidious with his force powers. It would be even much easier against Mace.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Have no idea how it would give Mace an advantage.

He has shatterpoint and would know that damaging it would be debilitating.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I hate that every discussion regarding Mace comes down to his fight with Sidious. -_-

Originally posted by Nephthys
He has shatterpoint and would know that damaging it would be debilitating.
True, but that's only an advantage if he actually could damage it (which wouldn't happen, because Plagueis is faster and far more powerful).

Except he also has Vaapad so he'll be able to match Plagueis in speed and redirect his power.

Vaapad has never been a tiebreaker for Mace so I fail to see why it should here.

I didn't say it would be? I explained that Vaapad would allow him to tie and Shatterpoint would be the tie-breaker.

But it wouldn't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not in a million years. Couldn't ever happen, ever.

Again.

You hate me, don't you?

Lol.

Yes. >:]

:P

Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't say it would be? I explained that Vaapad would allow him to tie and Shatterpoint would be the tie-breaker.

Nah Shatterpoint's not a guaranteed tie-breaker. And Plagueis's superior Force Powers will come into play. Vapaad and Shatterpoint won't help there.

Its not guaranteed, but if Windu can turn something as small as 'its raining' into 'go to the ledge and break the window, Palpatine will transfer some of the power he's using for speed into a grip on the ledge and you can capitalise on that', he can figure out 'break mask, win'.

Sidious' superior Force Powers didn't really. I think Windu is powerful enough that he can survive them, as he did against Sidious.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He probably is. Plagueis is just too powerful for Mace.

No, he isn't. ROTS Sidious > Plagueis. You keep hating that every discussion comes back to Mace's fight against Sidious if you want, but it is what it is. Like it or not. He defeated one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history, if not the most. How is Plagueis, who is ROTS Sidious' inferior, be "just too powerful for Mace"? A flawed logic.


Unless you're just messing around.


The combination of Shatterpoint and Vaapad will prove too much for Plagueis to handle, unless he has some unheard of Force ability which grants him the edge over such abilities.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
No, he isn't. ROTS Sidious > Plagueis. You keep hating that every discussion comes back to Mace's fight against Sidious if you want, but it is what it is. Like it or not. He defeated one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history, if not the most. How is Plagueis, who is ROTS Sidious' inferior, be "just too powerful for Mace"? A flawed logic.


Unless you're just messing around.


The combination of Shatterpoint and Vaapad will prove too much for Plagueis to handle, unless he has some unheard of Force ability which grants him the edge over such abilities.
Not really. Your whole argument relies on the fact that Mace beat Palpatine legitimately, and if he had then I'd favor him.

But he didn't. With that said, Plagueis has succesfully brought down cave ceilings, disintegrated half a dozen armored Maladians and then half a dozen more simultaneously with the same wave while injured, used choke on Palpatine (who was more powerful than Mace at this point), etc. There is a very noticeable disparity in power.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not really. Your whole argument relies on the fact that Mace beat Palpatine legitimately, and if he had then I'd favor him.

But he didn't. With that said, Plagueis has succesfully brought down cave ceilings, disintegrated half a dozen armored Maladians and then half a dozen more simultaneously with the same wave while injured, used choke on Palpatine (who was more powerful than Mace at this point), etc. There is a very noticeable disparity in power.

Yes, and Sidious' TK is also very impressive, killed three of "the Order's most celebrated swordsmen" in less than a minute, and is considered the most powerful Sith Lord as of ROTS.

Explain how Mace didn't beat Palpatine legitimately.

This is exactly why I hate Mace-topics.

Palpatine's fear led to a shatterpoint, allowing Mace to win. But it wasn't Palpatine's real fear (Mace thought so), it was Anakin's fear. Palpatine misdirected the fear so it seemed like his own and Mace realizes this at the end of the fight. Palpatine wanted to lose.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Yes, and Sidious' TK is also very impressive,

Which would have been very useful against Mace had the fight not started with 3 other Council level Jedi Masters whom Sidious had to quickly blitz thereby being forced to engage Mace in a Lightsaber duel right from the start.

And yet Mace was still being forced back and on the defensive for the first 20 seconds of their fight. And even after Mace began to even the odds, he still required a tactical advantage (the window ledge thing).

Like it or not that fight had circumstances attached to it. In a one on one fight in an open space I have no doubt Sidious would take a majority against Mace. He's simply more powerful.

Don't get me wrong Mace is still Uber. No other Jedi (except Yoda) could defeat Sidious under any circumstance.

Lose At 5.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This is exactly why I hate Mace-topics.

Palpatine's fear led to a shatterpoint, allowing Mace to win. But it wasn't Palpatine's real fear (Mace thought so), it was Anakin's fear. Palpatine misdirected the fear so it seemed like his own and Mace realizes this at the end of the fight. Palpatine wanted to lose.

You're just speculating that's how it happened, there's no proof that Sidious was holding back and wanted to lose.

Uh. The novel makes it very clear.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Uh. The novel makes it very clear.

As far as I remember, it doesn't. Maybe I need to read it again.

Or can you provide the quote?

Personally I don't see how Palpatine/Anakins fear played into Windu beating him. The novel makes it clear that it was actually by tricking Palpatine into diverting some of his speed into a grip on the slippery ledge that enabled Mace to win.


Plus its non-canon since once again, Anakin isn't there in the movie, thus Windu couldn't be feeling their fear.

Alright. Mace feels Anakin in the Force:

Feeling for its shatterpoint.

He found a knot of fault lines in the shadow's future; he chose the largest fracture and followed it back to the here and the now... And it led him, astonishingly, to a man standing frozen in the slashed-open doorway. Mace had no need to look; the presence in the Force was familiar, and was as uplifting as sunlight breaking through a thunderhead.

The chosen one was here.

Mace feels the shadow's (Palpatine's) shatterpoint and acts on it:

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge.

Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop.

Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete.

Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half.

Mace says that Palpatine was defeated by his own fear:

Now the shadow was only Palpatine: old and shrunken, thinning hair bleached white by time and care, face lined with exhaustion.

"For all your power, you are no Jedi. All you are, my lord," Mace said evenly, staring past his blade, "is under arrest."

"Do you see, Anakin? Do you?" Palpatine's voice once again had the broken cadence of a frightened old man's. "Didn't I warn you of the Jedi and their treason?"

"Save your twisted words, my lord. There are no politicians here. The Sith will never regain control of the Republic. It's over. You've lost." Mace leveled his blade. "You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear."

Palpatine says it wasn't his own fear:

"Fool," he said.

He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons.

"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"

Mace feels that it wasn't Palpatine's fear at all, but Anakin's:

He felt Anakin's leap from the office floor to the ledge, felt his approach behind-And Palpatine was not afraid. Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all.

That should be sufficient.

That doesn't prove he was holding back while fighting, it only proves Mace thought it was Palpatine's fear, not Anakin and that Palpatine wasn't scared. The fact that he wasn't scared doesn't mean he was holding back, mainly because he was overconfident, as all Sith Lords are.

Actually, it only strengthens Mace's case further. He thought he took full advantage of Palpatine's fear, while in fact he wasn't scared and still defeated him.

...

It kind of does, unless you want to think that one of the most powerful Jedi in the order doesn't have reliable Force senses.

How does Sidious not being scared mean he was holding back? He was extremely overconfident.

Because he redirected Anakin's fear through himself which led to the shatterpoint, ie Sidious knew he would lose.

Even if what you say is true, it still doesn't mean anything. How do you know Palpatine didn't think he could take Mace even with the Shatterpoint? As I said, he was extremely overconfident.

I'm not sure what your question is, sorry.

I'd perfer not to use the novel in Windu Vs Sidious discussions and just go by the movie. I just go with Sidious straight up threw the fight, lol.

You're saying that the redirected fear led to Mace discovering Palpatine's shatterpoint.

So you're saying Palpatine knew that when Mace discovered his shatterpoint, he would lose.

I'm saying you can't know that, especially because Palpatine was so overcondifent it's highly likely that he didn't think he'd lose even if Mace discovered his shatterpoint.

It's not about Palpatine's overconfidence. He literally set the whole thing up, from implanting fear into Anakin's mind to setting up a record-device before the fight so it seemed like he'd been getting assassinated to musing in Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader how everything had gone perfectly after plan.

Except he underestimated Mace's strength.

Redirecting Anakin's fear could very well only mean he didn't want Mace feeling Anakin's fear, and just that. Not that he wanted Mace to discover his shatterpoint.

Why in the world would he want Mace to not discover Anakin's fear, especially when he right out states that it wasn't his in the end?

Because it was already too late...?

Because if Mace felt Anakin's fear, it might've led Mace to believe Anakin could act on it and do something he'd regret... As he did.

Right, and if Mace had happened to believe Anakin would do something he'd regret it'd change what?

Not the point.

The point is that there are other possibilites; you can't know if Palpatine held back based on only that. You're only speculating Palpatine wanted Mace to discover his shatterpoint, it is never stated outright that he wanted to lose.

But it is the point. The possibility you're playing out makes absolutely no sense, while Palpatine holding to convert Anakin makes a lot of sense, especially since Mace feels Anakin's fear earlier in the book.

Palpatine didn't underestimated Mace's strength. It wasn't about Mace, he was just a pawn. Anakin was main goal in Palpatine's plans. Palpatine knew, that Anakin doesn't care of his freedom etc. he just wanted him alive. When Mace "defeat" him in sword fight, he was counting that Mace will try to kill him, but Mace wasn't angry enough. So he used FL to bring Mace deeper into vaapad. After that, Mace's judgement was clouded by the dark side, and he decided to do something, what Anakin cannot allow. It forced Anakin's do choose, and it was obvious for Sidious, that Anakin willl choose to defend his life.
So he was toying with Windu all the time. Maybe even Mace was better duelist, but who cares. Palpatine was superior force user, with superior TK, FL, speed... Mace can't block TK with his sword. Even full power lightning would be to much for him.

Prove Sideous could defeat Mace with the force.

I find it hard to believe that Sideous WANTED Mace to melt half his face off.

Mace is just highly overrated.
He admitted in "Shatterpoint", that his TK skills aren't even close to Yoda's. His shatterpoint doesn't help him, when he fell right into Bane's trap (TCW S2 E3). Even Sora Bulq was able to catch him offguard and force push him. In his duel with Sidious he barley defend himself against lightning:
1) Movie version - he defends himself, but Lucas confirmed, that Plaptine wasn't using his full power.
2) Comic veriosn - at the end of the lightning we can see him lying on the ground.
3) Book version - he admits, that even vaapad wasn't enought to block Sidious's FL.

Palpatine was able to fight on par with Yoda with the force. He's considered as much more powerful with the force then Cound Dooku (who is more powerful force user then Mace).

Lets be real.....

The most powerful Sithlord of all time>>>>>Mace

Indeed, but Windu happens to have Vaapad and Shatterpoint which evens the scales.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Prove Sideous could defeat Mace with the force.

I find it hard to believe that Sideous WANTED Mace to melt half his face off.

Yeah, not sure how Plagueis wins this. Mace's Vaapad allows him to turn the darkness back onto the source. And if Vaapd was sufficient for RotS Sidious it is more than sufficient for Plagueis. That plus the fact that he has shatterpoint and Plagueis has an easily exploitable weakness should allow Windu to win far more often than not.

In all honesty, I see Bane as being the bigger threat here. Those orbalisks are going to be hard to get around even for a swordmaster like Mace.

A one on one fight in an open space would have Sidious start off with a massive force wave/crush on Windu like the one he used against Maul and Opress. Possibly added to some FL. Then throwing huge objects at him telekinetically like he did against Yoda.

Even in a Saber fight Sidious would probably take a majority against Mace Imho. Just because Mace won that one which began with help and ended with Mace gaining an environmental advantage, does not mean Mace would win every time.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This is exactly why I hate Mace-topics.

Palpatine's fear led to a shatterpoint, allowing Mace to win. But it wasn't Palpatine's real fear (Mace thought so), it was Anakin's fear. Palpatine misdirected the fear so it seemed like his own and Mace realizes this at the end of the fight. Palpatine wanted to lose.

I'd hate topics that show my favorite characters getting disarmed but that doesn't make a good argument at all.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
A one on one fight in an open space would have Sidious start off with a massive force wave/crush on Windu like the one he used against Maul and Opress. Possibly added to some FL. Then throwing huge objects at him telekinetically like he did against Yoda.

Correct.



Sidious threw the saber fight, buddy.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._

I find it hard to believe that Sideous WANTED Mace to melt half his face off.

This.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
This.

Thats his original form buddy.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Thats his original form buddy.

Um, no it's not.

He got his face disfigured by his own lightning. I seriously doubt that was part of his plan.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Um, no it's not.

He got his face disfigured by his own lightning. I seriously doubt that was part of his plan.

That he couldn't avoid. Even if he wasn't pretending to be weak and carried on firing and overpowered Mace's blade, it would have been at the expense of his face. (Not a big loss really).

lol.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Sidious threw the saber fight, buddy.
No he didn't.
He threw the FL deflection/reflection duel though. GL stated that Sidious was feigning weakness in RoTS.

I have no idea why it's so hard to believe he threw the whole fight.

Because there is no proof that he did.

Originally posted by ares834
Because there is no proof that he did.
"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."
--Taken from the Revenge of the Sith commentary

I just posted it. Palpatine setting up a record device so it sounds like he'd been getting assassinated which would have Anakin hate the Jedi, implanting fear in Anakin's mind so he needed Palpatine's help, and in the end redirected the fear so it seemed like his own, allowing Mace to win.

Originally posted by Vensai
"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."
--Taken from the Revenge of the Sith commentary

That refers merely to the force contest not the saber duel. Which Lucas firmly established that Windu won without giving any hints that Palpatine was holding back.

Also interesting enough, Lucas says Palpatine is trying to "destroy" Mace with his lightning initially. So, yeah, Palpatine was trying to kill Windu.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I just posted it. Palpatine setting up a record device so it sounds like he'd been getting assassinated which would have Anakin hate the Jedi, implanting fear in Anakin's mind so he needed Palpatine's help, and in the end redirected the fear so it seemed like his own, allowing Mace to win.

That's not proof but rather a theory. And it doesn't even make sense, I mean if Windu decided to put him on trial rather than kill him his entire scheme would have collapsed.

Anyway, the entire "fear" argument is irrelevant as it's non-canon. Anakin isn't there when Mace and Sidious fight nor does Sidious shout that the fear Windu feels isn't his.

I never denied Mace won the saber duel. We all saw it.

And I was initially replying to Intrepid who is arguing that Palpatine threw the entire duel.

Originally posted by ares834
And I was initially replying to Intrepid who is arguing that Palpatine threw the entire duel.
Sorry, I missed that.
The novel explicitly states they they were stalemating even when Mace got his Vaapad amp. And in the movie, Anakin arrived after Sidious lost the saber duel, so throwing it at that point wouldn't have made sense because Mace could have killed him before Sidious could convert Anakin.

Mace was fighting equally with Sidious once he was fully sunk into Vapaad. He then gained a tactical advantage to disarm Sidious.

But I stand by the notion that if not for the 3 Masters helping at the beginning Sidious would have had a better chance at winning the Saber fight.

Add in his Force Powers in a more open space then I personally see Sidious taking a good majority over Mace.

I agree that in a more open space Sidious would've had a better chance of winning. But the fact is that he does have the capabilites to defeat Sidious one-on-one because he did. What Intrepid posted before wasn't evidence, it was a theory. What ares posted reinforced that even further. Sidious threw nothing.

There's also the fact that Lucas said you'd have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious. Well, guess which character Samuel L. Jackson plays?

Originally posted by ares834
That's not proof but rather a theory. And it doesn't even make sense, I mean if Windu decided to put him on trial rather than kill him his entire scheme would have collapsed.
LOL. Right, come with a better theory to answer everything that happened in the novel.

Originally posted by ares834
Anyway, the entire "fear" argument is irrelevant as it's non-canon. Anakin isn't there when Mace and Sidious fight nor does Sidious shout that the fear Windu feels isn't his.
But it's not non-canon. In the movie, Anakin lands his ship outside the office which is when Mace feels him in the Force and when he also feels Palpatine turn into a ''puls of fear''.

It'a a theory that he threw the duel. And one that doesn't make sense. You keep ignoring things that have been said.

Even in the commentary posted earlier the guy says Sidious was trying to destroy Mace and starts feigning weakness after that.

I'm ignoring nothing. You've provided your ludicrous strawman-theory that Sidious wanted to hide Anakin's fear from Mace, to which I responded that Mace already knew of Anakin's fear (and I have no idea why it doesn't make sense to you since he already implanted fear into Anakin's mind that would have Anakin believe he'd need Palpatine's help).

It's not only what I said, it's what others have said, as well, the fact that it's stated only Yoda and Mace can compete with Sidious, which only supports the notion that neither of them were holding back, that in the commentary the guy says Sidious was trying to destroy Mace, and other comments regarding this matter.

No one said that Mace couldn't compete with Sidious... but does he ever have a chance of winning? No. Might as well say that Dooku has a chance of beating Yoda, but that doesn't sound appropriate, does it?

Originally posted by Zett
Palpatine didn't underestimated Mace's strength. It wasn't about Mace, he was just a pawn. Anakin was main goal in Palpatine's plans. Palpatine knew, that Anakin doesn't care of his freedom etc. he just wanted him alive. When Mace "defeat" him in sword fight, he was counting that Mace will try to kill him, but Mace wasn't angry enough. So he used FL to bring Mace deeper into vaapad. After that, Mace's judgement was clouded by the dark side, and he decided to do something, what Anakin cannot allow. It forced Anakin's do choose, and it was obvious for Sidious, that Anakin willl choose to defend his life.
So he was toying with Windu all the time. Maybe even Mace was better duelist, but who cares. Palpatine was superior force user, with superior TK, FL, speed... Mace can't block TK with his sword. Even full power lightning would be to much for him.

With all due respect...there are several issues with this line of reasoning.

1. Authorial fiat - not only does George Lucas suggest in his commentaries that Mace Windu overpowers Palpatine, the RotS novelization quite explicitly details how Mace Windu, although inferior in raw Force capabilities, manages to overpower Palpatine through a combination of vaapad and shatterpoint. Indeed, the novel actually suggests that Windu would have fallen early on in the battle had he not had time to sink fully into vaapad (which matches the film events of Sidious clearly having the advantage in the early stages of the duel), making the "B team" not as useless as people joke.

2. Occam's Razor - you can speculate all you want about whether or not Palpatine threw the fight, but without any solid empirical evidence, or any flaws in the simpler theory that Mace Windu, one of the most powerful Jedi in galactic history, simply overpowered Palpatine, but to do so would require you to toss out authorial fiat and the entire RotS novelization depiction of the battle. There's simply no reason to do so.

3. Path of Destruction and a combination of other sources tell us that one must be:
a) significantly more powerful in the Force
b) use a sufficiently potent Force move
or
c) catch the opponent off guard

to penetrate one's Force defenses. Palpatine using telekinesis would not fit into any of these categories.

Note that there is evidence to suggest that Palpatine was feigning, or at least exaggerating weakness after he tried to overpower Windu through Force lightning, but that doesn't mean that he could pull off the same through TK. And even in the former case, Mace Windu turned Palpatine's lightning back on his face via a superconducting loop, so whereas Palpatine may not have been as weak as he pretended to be, it's not as if he faked having his face permanently disfigured.

4. Palpatine would be a fool to "fake" losing to Windu. He'd be gambling with several assumptions:

a) That Mace Windu would take advantage of the opening Palpatine left to kick him, rather than slice him across the midsection.
b) That Mace Windu would then still try to take him under arrest, rather than chop his ****ing head off.
c) That, upon deciding to "end this, once and for all", Mace Windu would do an exaggerated overhand strike, rather than just lunging at Palpatine through his neck.
d) That, despite having already sensed Anakin's conflicted emotions to the point where he did not trust him to accompany his arrest team, and that Anakin had just rather disturbingly stated that he "needs him!", Windu would not be on guard for any sort of mischief whatsoever (even though he never really liked Skywalker), and would not sense, with his precognition, Anakin activating his lightsaber and slicing his hand off.

So yeah, it's safe to say that Windu + vaapad + shatterpoint > Palpatine.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No one said that Mace couldn't compete with Sidious... but does he ever have a chance of winning? No. Might as well say that Dooku has a chance of beating Yoda, but that doesn't sound appropriate, does it?

Being able to compete against another opponent suggests he has the ability to win. That's why it's a competition, and that's why he says only Mace and Yoda could compete against him, because all others wouldn't be capable of fighting on par with Sidious and would be killed. It's never said that Dooku can compete against Yoda.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Being able to compete against another opponent suggests he has the ability to win. That's why it's a competition, and that's why he says only Mace and Yoda could compete against him, because all others wouldn't be capable of fighting on par with Sidious and would be killed. It's never said that Dooku can compete against Yoda.
The ability to compete does not suggest the ability to win. For that matter, I have no idea why you're refering to a 8(?)-year old statement as fact when we see Anakin dueling Dooku as an equal and Dooku dueling Mace as an equal.

It really does. If there was not a chance of winning, it wouldn't be competing.

I'm refering to that statement because nothing has been said or seen afterwards that disproves it. What does Anakin dueling Dooku as an equal and Dooku dueling Mace as an equal have anything to do with Yoda?

Not really. To compete means to try and outdo someone (in this case, Sidious) for/in something (a fight).

Yoda's capable of fighting as an equal with Sidious. Dooku and Anakin can hold their owns against Yoda (ie compete with him).

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I have no idea why it's so hard to believe he threw the whole fight.

Because such an interpretation is blatantly contradicted by Lucas's audio commentary, and the RotS novelization?

Mace Windu could have simply lunged at Palpatine and skewered him right there. Palpatine couldn't possibly have known that Samuel L Jackson would be a dumbass, and opt for a telegraphed, overhand strike, without bothering to account for the Anakin that he knows is conflicted, and doesn't trust.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not really. To compete means to try and outdo someone (in this case, Sidious) for/in something (a fight).

Yoda's capable of fighting as an equal with Sidious. Dooku and Anakin can hold their owns against Yoda (ie compete with him).

Except that they can't. I understand were you're coming from, though... But I think that by saying that Lucas meant that the only ones who could fight on par with Sidious were Yoda and Mace. I guess it's subjective.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian


I'm refering to that statement because nothing has been said or seen afterwards that disproves it.

Anakin overpowering the son and daughter would suggest he also has the ability to defeat Sidious.

That would kind of retcon the Mace/Yoda only quote.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anakin overpowering the son and daughter would suggest he also has the ability to defeat Sidious.

That would kind of retcon the Mace/Yoda only quote.

It would also suggest he has the ability to defeat Kenobi.

Originally posted by Master Han
Because such an interpretation is blatantly contradicted by Lucas's audio commentary, and the RotS novelization?

Mace Windu could have simply lunged at Palpatine and skewered him right there. Palpatine couldn't possibly have known that Samuel L Jackson would be a dumbass, and opt for a telegraphed, overhand strike, without bothering to account for the Anakin that he knows is conflicted, and doesn't trust.
Are you serious and/or trolling?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Are you serious and/or trolling?

Maybe you should watch the movie again, before automatically jumping to support your "Palpatine just can't **** up!" mantra.

Mace Windu has several opportunities to kill Palpatine after he knocks his lightsaber out of his hand. The only reason Palpatine survives is Windu's acting like a dumbass. He could have immediately lunged at the DLOTS and cut him down as he scurried away from his blade. That's certainly what I would have done, but apparently, Windu forgot about sith lightning.

He then forgot about the fact that he had earlier sensed Anakin's fear and conflict to the point where he didn't even trust him to accompany his arrest team, and later through shatterpoint, and so is somehow caught off guard by a deranged Skywalker he's never liked in the first place, who had just earlier shouted "I need him!" in a disturbing voice.

Why did Windu even telegraph his strike? What would have happened had he just done a more efficient stab through Palpatine's heart? The supposedly infallible Darth Sidious would be dead.

This is confirmed by Lucas's own commentary.

Master Han HELL NO Darth Sidious Fake The Fight.

I Never Did Like That Mace Windu Character

Originally posted by Master Han
Maybe you should watch the movie again, before automatically jumping to support your "Palpatine just can't **** up!" mantra.
I suggest, next time, that you'd read what you were about to post.

Originally posted by Master Han
Mace Windu has several opportunities to kill Palpatine after he knocks his lightsaber out of his hand. The only reason Palpatine survives is Windu's acting like a dumbass. He could have immediately lunged at the DLOTS and cut him down as he scurried away from his blade. That's certainly what I would have done, but apparently, Windu forgot about sith lightning.
LOL. That's your argument? Need I remind you how Sidious pointed his lightsaber at Windu but instead of pushing it through the latter's body he forced him backwards?

Originally posted by Master Han
He then forgot about the fact that he had earlier sensed Anakin's fear and conflict to the point where he didn't even trust him to accompany his arrest team, and later through shatterpoint, and so is somehow caught off guard by a deranged Skywalker he's never liked in the first place, who had just earlier shouted "I need him!" in a disturbing voice.
LOL. And why would he even think of Anakin's fear in his fight with Sidious?

Originally posted by Master Han
Why did Windu even telegraph his strike? What would have happened had he just done a more efficient stab through Palpatine's heart? The supposedly infallible Darth Sidious would be dead.
Come to the point.

Originally posted by Vensai
"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."
--Taken from the Revenge of the Sith commentary

This should really be the end of this. Lucas himself saying that Mace overpowered Sidious and that Sidious was trying to destroy Windu with his lightning. End of discussion imo.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
LOL. That's your argument? Need I remind you how Sidious pointed his lightsaber at Windu but instead of pushing it through the latter's body he forced him backwards?


Actually, Sidious then tries to lunge at Windu, who deflects his attack and catches him in a grip.

I'd point out that, if Sidious is such a genius that he can:

a) Fake facial expressions and, presumably, emotions, to give the appearance of being desperate.
b) Get his lightsaber kicked out of his hand without leaving himself so open as to get a lightsaber through his heart.
c) Somehow know that Anakin will arrive just in time to avoid Windu from immediately killing him.
d) Somehow know that Windu will act like a dumbass and do a wide, telegraphed strike...

He wouldn't have made it so obvious that he was "staging" the fight as to hover with his lightsaber to Windu's chest for several seconds. You're suggesting he was far more subtle than that.




What? I'm referring to afterwards, when Windu is about to strike Palpatine down.

1. He does a telegraphed overhand strike.
2. He just heard Anakin disturbingly saying that he "needs" Palpatine.
3. He doesn't trust Anakin, and has never really liked him.
4. Despite all of the above, he is still caught off guard by Skywalker's saber slash.



The point is that Palpatine couldn't have thrown the fight, because he couldn't have known that Windu would act like a dumbass, and because Windu could have killed him on numerous occasions.

I Am Right

Originally posted by Master Han
I Am A Dumb Troll & Fanboy of Mace Windu & A Liar

I Do Agree.

lol

I, for one, welcome our new rooster overlord.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I, for one, welcome our new rooster overlord.

LOL

Originally posted by Nephthys
I, for one, welcome our new rooster overlord.

Nepthys Thanks Buddy & I Am Sorry For Calling You A Troll Okey.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
LOL

Col. Valerian Do You Agree That I Should Be The Lord Of These Forums Or What.

Originally posted by Master Han
The point is that Palpatine couldn't have thrown the fight, because he couldn't have known that Windu would act like a dumbass, and because Windu could have killed him on numerous occasions.
What? That's how the fights are in the movies. Qui-Gon could've killed Maul instead of pushing him over the edge after Maul pushed down Obi-Wan. Dooku could've altered his blade for a simple kill against Yoda, as could he have killed Yoda when the latter rescued Obi-Wan/Anakin.

An outside-universe explanation won't do.

Definitely.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Definitely.

Thanks Buddy. You Can Be My 2nd In Command Okey. Nepthys Will Be 3rd.

lol

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What? That's how the fights are in the movies. Qui-Gon could've killed Maul instead of pushing him over the edge after Maul pushed down Obi-Wan. Dooku could've altered his blade for a simple kill against Yoda, as could he have killed Yoda when the latter rescued Obi-Wan/Anakin.
An outside-universe explanation won't do.

Uh...dude, that's exactly what your theory requires.

So when Palpatine's planning his "throw the fight and hope not to die" act, what happens when he considers the possibility that Windu will just kill him on the spot, before Anakin can do anything (given that he's far faster and more powerful than the young Skywalker)?

According to your post above, he thinks "well, in our Star Wars galaxy, plot devices will prevent Windu from performing the most logical attack, and instead will prompt him monologue and XYZ that will happen to allow me to survive by a perfect sequence of events."

No. He got lucky. If he could perfectly predict every possible variable to the degree you suggest, he wouldn't have died in RotJ.

Originally posted by Master Han
According to your post above, he thinks "well, in our Star Wars galaxy, plot devices will prevent Windu from performing the most logical attack, and instead will prompt him monologue and XYZ that will happen to allow me to survive by a perfect sequence of events.".

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/6242114048/hDDEA9D0C/

Originally posted by Master Han
Uh...dude, that's exactly what your theory requires.
Not really. My theory relies on the explanation given by the novelization while yours rely on the way the characters fight.

Originally posted by Master Han
So when Palpatine's planning his "throw the fight and hope not to die" act, what happens when he considers the possibility that Windu will just kill him on the spot, before Anakin can do anything
Because, as Mace found out, ''Palpatine trusts Skywalker''.

Originally posted by Master Han
(given that he's far faster and more powerful than the young Skywalker)?
Mace? No.

Originally posted by Master Han
According to your post above, he thinks "well, in our Star Wars galaxy, plot devices will prevent Windu from performing the most logical attack, and instead will prompt him monologue and XYZ that will happen to allow me to survive by a perfect sequence of events."


Originally posted by Master Han
No. He got lucky. If he could perfectly predict every possible variable to the degree you suggest, he wouldn't have died in RotJ.
Refering to a situation of PIS is hardly a convincing argument.

It appears that we're ignoring the fact that Lucas makes it clear in his commentaries that Windu legitimately overpowers Palpatine.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Because, as Mace found out, ''Palpatine trusts Skywalker''.


How does this have anything to do with Palpatine's magically knowing that Windu won't lunge in and slash open his neck, like he should have done? You know, with this happening long before Anakin is within striking distance.



Yes. Mace Windu > baseline Anakin in RotS. Lucas says you have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with Palpatine; no mention of Anakin.



Rolling your eyes isn't a valid rebuttal to the fact that your argument is predicated on Palpatine magically knowing everything.



Do you understand the concept of suspension of disbelief? Stop appealing to out of universe authorial license to justify your theory that Palpatine has read the movie script, and knows that Windu won't just kill him in a millisecond, which he can.

Originally posted by Master Han
Rolling your eyes isn't a valid rebuttal to the fact that your argument is predicated on Palpatine magically knowing everything.

Isn't Palpatine's 'magically knowing everything' a major part of the ROTJ plot...

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Isn't Palpatine's 'magically knowing everything' a major part of the ROTJ plot...

Grand-Moff Gav Are You With Me Or Wat

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Isn't Palpatine's 'magically knowing everything' a major part of the ROTJ plot...

Except that he failed to foresee Vader's redemption, or Luke's rejection of the dark side, or the ground team's getting help from the ewoks, or Lando and co. blowing up the Death Star, or himself getting tossed down a shaft.

He couldn't even detect Luke's presence, IIRC, until Vader informed him.

Originally posted by Master Han
It appears that we're ignoring the fact that Lucas makes it clear in his commentaries that Windu legitimately overpowers Palpatine.
And it appears that you're twisting the statement. Lucas says that Windu overpowered Palpatine, which he did... in fact, I could come to that conclusion by watching the movie. He never, however, said how or why he overpowered him.

Originally posted by Master Han
How does this have anything to do with Palpatine's magically knowing that Windu won't lunge in and slash open his neck, like he should have done? You know, with this happening long before Anakin is within striking distance.
That's pretty stupid. No one ever said that Palpatine would know how the exact fight would go.


Originally posted by Master Han
Yes. Mace Windu > baseline Anakin in RotS. Lucas says you have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with Palpatine; no mention of Anakin.
But then again, Dooku has fought Windu as an equal (and beaten him) and Anakin has fought Dooku as an equal (and beaten him).


Originally posted by Master Han
Rolling your eyes isn't a valid rebuttal to the fact that your argument is predicated on Palpatine magically knowing everything.
A rebuttal isn't needed:

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That's pretty stupid. No one ever said that Palpatine would know how the exact fight would go.

Originally posted by Master Han
Do you understand the concept of suspension of disbelief? Stop appealing to out of universe authorial license to justify your theory that Palpatine has read the movie script, and knows that Windu won't just kill him in a millisecond, which he can.
Eh, no.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That's pretty stupid. No one ever said that Palpatine would know how the exact fight would go.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
And it appears that you're twisting the statement. Lucas says that Windu overpowered Palpatine, which he did... in fact, I could come to that conclusion by watching the movie. He never, however, said how or why he overpowered him.


From an out of universe perspective, Lucas isn't the type of director to insert some subtle conspiracy theory and then fail to ever make it clear that he did so.



It has nothing to do with knowing how the exact fight would go, please don't strawman me.

According to your theory, he intentionally puts himself at Windu's mercy.

HOW DOES HE KNOW WINDU WON'T IMMEDIATELY KILL HIM?



Firstly, Dooku has been surpassed by Windu by RotS.

Secondly, Anakin only defeats Dooku after tapping into some one-time "one with the Force" deus ex machina, as described in the novelization.

Originally posted by Master Han
From an out of universe perspective, Lucas isn't the type of director to insert some subtle conspiracy theory and then fail to ever make it clear that he did so.
The only thing you're doing is adding your own opinion onto his statement.


Originally posted by Master Han
According to your theory, he intentionally puts himself at Windu's mercy.
Correct.

Originally posted by Master Han
HOW DOES HE KNOW WINDU WON'T IMMEDIATELY KILL HIM?
When? I'd appreciate it if you could point out the time of what you're talking about.

Pk4AiCnMqpg



Originally posted by Master Han
Firstly, Dooku has been surpassed by Windu by RotS.
Prove it.


Originally posted by Master Han
Secondly, Anakin only defeats Dooku after tapping into some one-time "one with the Force" deus ex machina, as described in the novelization.
I'm well aware, but I can refer you to Anakin's draw with Dooku in the TCW movie and his fight in S4 in which he forced Dooku on the defense the entire fight.

Originally posted by Master Han
Except that he failed to foresee Vader's redemption, or Luke's rejection of the dark side, or the ground team's getting help from the ewoks, or Lando and co. blowing up the Death Star, or himself getting tossed down a shaft.

He couldn't even detect Luke's presence, IIRC, until Vader informed him.

A fair point... You could say his overconfidence was his weakness? (Perhaps explaining why he, (if he indeed did) threw the fight? He had some premonition, of the extended dialogue distracting Mace, and it didn't occur to him his vision was flawed?

Plus, people breaking into extended dialogue before killing someone is a common problem, one Palpatine had himself...

Originally posted by Intrepid37 The only thing you're doing is adding your own opinion onto his statement.


No, that's exactly what you're doing. Occam's Razor tell us that when Windu defeated Palpatine, he did so because he caught him off guard and kicked his lightsaber out of his hands. It does not tell us that Palpatine had concocted a convoluted and absurd plot that only worked on sheer luck.




2:01 and onwards.

Firstly, he could have stabbed him right after kicking him.
Then, while Palpatine is scurrying away in fear (why wouldn't Windu sense his deception?), Windu could have lunged in and stabbed him.
...
even at the very end, Windu could have simply done a quick, efficient stab to the heart, instead of a pointlessly telegraphed, overhand slash that leaves himself open and exposed.



Well, firstly there's the circular logic that he is > Palpatine.

Secondly, he's equals with Dooku by Dark Rendezvous, and while Windu gets stronger over the course of TCW, the RotS novelization implies that Dooku's age is finally getting to him; either way, Windu's younger age means that he'll advance faster than Dooku, via diminishing returns.



That scene makes no sense whatsoever, given that Dooku is confident taking the duo on at the same time in RotS, and Obi Wan says "this time we'll take him together", rather than "HA! Anakin already kicked your ass before!"

Likely, Anakin was "in the zone" in that instance as well.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That's pretty stupid. No one ever said that Palpatine would know how the exact fight would go.


I think thats his point. If its so risky that Windu could kill him any number of way, then it makes no sense for Palps to throw the fight and risk getting killed.

Originally posted by Master Han
No, that's exactly what you're doing. Occam's Razor tell us that when Windu defeated Palpatine, he did so because he caught him off guard and kicked his lightsaber out of his hands. It does not tell us that Palpatine had concocted a convoluted and absurd plot that only worked on sheer luck.

Originally posted by Master Han
No, that's exactly what you're doing. Occam's Razor tell us that when Windu defeated Palpatine, he did so because he caught him off guard and kicked his lightsaber out of his hands. It does not tell us that Palpatine had concocted a convoluted and absurd plot that only worked on sheer luck.

Can you really apply Occam's Razor to a scenario involving complex personalities who, occasionally, do not act in the way that is logically appropriate?

For example, if I eat a cake someone might say. Per Occam's Razor he eat the cake because he was hungry. However, in actual fact I eat the cake because, even though I didn't like it, I didn't want me mortal nemesis to get some.

It is still exactly what Intrepid is doing. It's too risky, and Palpatine would never risk his life so absurdly.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/6242114048/hDDEA9D0C/



http://members.shaw.ca/david.p.z.888/star_wars/pics/palpatine_death.jpg



Anyway, Lucas says Sidious overpowered Windu and that Sidious tries to destroy Windu. That pretty much contradicts the idea that Sidious threw the entire fight.

Originally posted by ares834
http://members.shaw.ca/david.p.z.888/star_wars/pics/palpatine_death.jpg



Anyway, Lucas says Sidious overpowered Windu and that Sidious tries to destroy Windu. That pretty much contradicts the idea that Sidious threw the entire fight.

Ares Are You Joining Me.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Can you really apply Occam's Razor to a scenario involving complex personalities who, occasionally, do not act in the way that is logically appropriate?

For example, if I eat a cake someone might say. Per Occam's Razor he eat the cake because he was hungry. However, in actual fact I eat the cake because, even though I didn't like it, I didn't want me mortal nemesis to get some.


But we can't assume that you just wanted to be a dick, unless if we have evidence to suggest it. It's a matter of probability; you could have had such schemes, but out of 100 times...what are the chances, without specific parameters? (IMO)

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
It is still exactly what Intrepid is doing. It's too risky, and Palpatine would never risk his life so absurdly.

Like the time he never risked his life by assuming that there was no way the rebels could destroy the death star? Or that Vader and Luke wouldn't join together against him? Or the time he assumed Vader would just stand by and let him kill his son?

"Your overconfidence is your weakness..."

Sorry, I think ROTJ quotes win this for Intrepid... sort of, at least.

No. It is absurd to assume Lucas didn't really mean that Windu was overpowering him but in truth that he was falling directly into Sidious' trap. That's just a wild assumption.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Like the time he never risked his life by assuming that there was no way the rebels could destroy the death star? Or that Vader and Luke wouldn't join together against him? Or the time he assumed Vader would just stand by and let him kill his son?

"Your overconfidence is your weakness..."

Sorry, I think ROTJ quotes win this for Intrepid... sort of, at least.

Grand Moff-Gav Wat Up My Loyal Follower You Are Cool

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Like the time he never risked his life by assuming that there was no way the rebels could destroy the death star? Or that Vader and Luke wouldn't join together against him? Or the time he assumed Vader would just stand by and let him kill his son?

"Your overconfidence is your weakness..."

Sorry, I think ROTJ quotes win this for Intrepid... sort of, at least.

But that's a bit of a self-contradicting argument: simultaneously arguing that Palpatine is a genius manipulator that had the entire fight perfectly planned, and that Palpatine is an arrogant fool who just assumed that Windu wouldn't cut his head off.

Originally posted by Master Han
But we can't assume that you just wanted to be a dick, unless if we have evidence to suggest it. It's a matter of probability; you could have had such schemes, but out of 100 times...what are the chances, without specific parameters? (IMO)

So then, Occam's Razor cannot provide you with certainty? It's a 'best' guess which can't be used to define the realities of specific circumstances...

Originally posted by Master Han
No, that's exactly what you're doing. Occam's Razor tell us that when Windu defeated Palpatine, he did so because he caught him off guard and kicked his lightsaber out of his hands. It does not tell us that Palpatine had concocted a convoluted and absurd plot that only worked on sheer luck.
And it doesn't tell us that he did so legitimately, either.




Originally posted by Master Han
2:01 and onwards.

Firstly, he could have stabbed him right after kicking him.
Then, while Palpatine is scurrying away in fear (why wouldn't Windu sense his deception?), Windu could have lunged in and stabbed him.
...
even at the very end, Windu could have simply done a quick, efficient stab to the heart, instead of a pointlessly telegraphed, overhand slash that leaves himself open and exposed.
Not convincing. Sidious could've put his saber through Mace's gut immediately at 1:06 instead of waiting. He could've aimed his lightning at Mace's feet instead of his head. He could've Force pushed Mace out of the window instead of using lightning.

Originally posted by Master Han
and while Windu gets stronger over the course of TCW,
According to what source?

Originally posted by Master Han
the RotS novelization implies that Dooku's age is finally getting to him;
The same novelization implies Dooku got more powerful with age.

Originally posted by Master Han
either way, Windu's younger age means that he'll advance faster than Dooku, via diminishing returns.
Sure, if he actually advanced .

Originally posted by Master Han
That scene makes no sense whatsoever, given that Dooku is confident taking the duo on at the same time in RotS, and Obi Wan says "this time we'll take him together", rather than "HA! Anakin already kicked your ass before!"
Given Dooku's chat with Sidious beforehand, that Sidious himself would take care of Anakin, it does.

Originally posted by Master Han
Likely, Anakin was "in the zone" in that instance as well.
In TCW?

Originally posted by Master Han
But that's a bit of a self-contradicting argument: simultaneously arguing that Palpatine is a genius manipulator that had the entire fight perfectly planned, and that Palpatine is an arrogant fool who just assumed that Windu wouldn't cut his head off.

I don't think it is. He was a genius manipulator, no doubt. He was a genius manipulator who took risks. He was a genius manipulator who trusted his power of forsight. Unfortunately, on one or two occasions, it was wrong.

This isn't self-contradictory. Lot's of people who keep winning begin to believe themselves to be infallible, then they slip up- and they never see it coming.

That's exactly the point... He was overconfident and didn't think Mace would defeat him.

Originally posted by Banjo Broski
Grand Moff-Gav Wat Up My Loyal Follower You Are Cool

Alas, I only follow Master Han these days.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
It would also suggest he has the ability to defeat Kenobi.

Are you claiming Skywalker does not have the ability to defeat Kenobi?

Grand Moff: the burden of proof still lies on the person advocating for the Palpatine-act to establish that he had the foresight to magically know that Windu wouldn't just lunge in and cut his head off.

How could he know that?

Again, you're suggesting that Palpatine was not stupid, but rather arrogant in his foresight, suggesting that he foresaw how Windu would act. That would be a degree of Force sense he has never replicated. He wasn't even aware of Skywalker's presence on Endor.

Intrepid: you respond to my primary contention by pointing out that Palpatine could have killed Windu early on in the duel. Firstly, you may or may not be correct, since it appears that Windu was able to deflect his stab, and it's not as if he couldn't have done so earlier. Secondly, it does nothing to address my contention that Windu could have also killed him easily after kicking his saber.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Are you claiming Skywalker does not have the ability to defeat Kenobi?

He does, but he couldn't. I'm saying we shouldn't make the assumption that because he overpowered the son and the daughter he can take on Sidious, as well.

Originally posted by Master Han
Grand Moff: the burden of proof still lies on the person advocating for the Palpatine-act to establish that he had the foresight to magically know that Windu wouldn't just lunge in and cut his head off.

How could he know that?

Again, you're suggesting that Palpatine was not stupid, but rather arrogant in his foresight, suggesting that he foresaw how Windu would act. That would be a degree of Force sense he has never replicated. He wasn't even aware of Skywalker's presence on Endor.


Hmm, the point is conceded. You win, this time...

Originally posted by Master Han
Secondly, it does nothing to address my contention that Windu could have also killed him easily after kicking his saber.
Easily? Palpatine is faster (Mace could only see him as a blur) and his precognition is good enough to sense Maul's and Savage's every move before they even had happened.