Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Who wins!?.

Anakin is comparable to Mace.
Fisto goes down and Mace gets double teamed.

Anakin can beat Mace

Originally posted by Taay'hai
Anakin can beat Mace

He can, and Windu can beat him. Not sure who would win for a majority, though.

Anakin wins majority.

Originally posted by Taay'hai
Anakin wins majority.

Possible.

No. Windu was able to compete with Sidious, and actually won. If Kenobi can't compete with Sidious, I don't see how Anakin can. Team 1 takes this 7/10 times

Originally posted by Taay'hai
Anakin wins majority. But cant beat ROTS Kenobi? Imo a very flawed opinion

Team 2

Im thinking Windu beats out Anakin for a slight majority. Kenobi could take out Fisto but it would be a long and hard duel since Kenobi is a defensive fighter. Proabably around 5-6minutes and then Windu jumps over and the two PWN Kenobi.

So I gota give it to Team 1 7/10. imo.

Palpatine threw the fight.

Anakin wins against Mace. And if not, Obi-Wan wins against Kit Fisto and Mace dies

Originally posted by Taay'hai
Palpatine threw the fight.


That is something I agree with....

But just because he threw the fight dosint mean Windu cant beat Anakin...

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
That is something I agree with....

But just because he threw the fight dosint mean Windu cant beat Anakin...
He could. But it wouldn't be easy at all. Anakin has tanked Dooku's FL attacks and matched him in sabers. Mace has his work cut out for him.

Originally posted by Vensai
He could. But it wouldn't be easy at all. Anakin has tanked Dooku's FL attacks and matched him in sabers. Mace has his work cut out for him.

Agreed.

Originally posted by mnat801
No. Windu was able to compete with Sidious, and actually won. If Kenobi can't compete with Sidious, I don't see how Anakin can. Team 1 takes this 7/10 times

First your right Anakin can't compete with Sidious because the difference in Force Mastery is just too large. But that doesn't mean Anakin can't compete with Mace.

Second your logic is completely flawed. Because as per ROTS Kenobi can't compete with Dooku, yet Anakin can defeat him.

Hmmm I give it to team 2 not sure.

Windu can stalemate with Anakin.

Kenobi can stalemate with Fisto.

So it really depends on who wins first and helps the other.

Team 2should take a slight majority though.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
First your right Anakin can't compete with Sidious because the difference in Force Mastery is just too large. But that doesn't mean Anakin can't compete with Mace. There is evidence that he can compete with Mace per defeating Dooku, but no concrete evidence he can definitely beat him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Second your logic is completely flawed. Because as per ROTS Kenobi can't compete with Dooku, yet Anakin can defeat him. No in Dooku's last fight it's stated somewhere that Dooku realised Kenobi could overwhelm him hence throwing him over the room and trapping him so he can't get anywhere. The better evidence that Kenobi could defeat Dooku is the fact that he could defeat Sith Anakin.

You guys constantly underestimate Anakin.

Obi-Wan may have won their fight, but only with a high ground and knowledge of his moves inside-out. Were it not for the high ground and his bloodlusted state, Anakin could've taken Kenobi.

This thread is with ANAKIN SKYWALKER, not LORD VADER

Originally posted by Taay'hai
You guys constantly underestimate Anakin. Oh, the irony. What was the last thing he said to Obi Wan before he had his limbs cut off?

Originally posted by Taay'hai
Obi-Wan may have won their fight, but only with a high ground and knowledge of his moves inside-out. Were it not for the high ground and his bloodlusted state, Anakin could've taken Kenobi. Well tell me why Anakin didn't use the high ground to his advantage in the first place? If Anakin/Vader was obviously the superior fighter, it shouldn't have come down to a matter of high ground in the first place.

And Anakin would know as much of Obi Wan's moves as Obi Wan does Anakin.

Originally posted by Taay'hai
This thread is with ANAKIN SKYWALKER, not LORD VADER Bro. Its the same person, just with the name change. You don't see anyone going off about Anakin defeating Count Dooku when its actually Darth Tyranus who he defeated..

Originally posted by mnat801


No in Dooku's last fight it's stated somewhere that Dooku realised Kenobi could overwhelm him hence throwing him over the room and trapping him so he can't get anywhere. The better evidence that Kenobi could defeat Dooku is the fact that he could defeat Sith Anakin.

What the heck? You think Kenobi can beat Dooku?

He got completely humiliated by him. Twice.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What the heck? You think Kenobi can beat Dooku?

He got completely humiliated by him. Twice. Simply on the basis that he's beaten Sith Anakin, yeap.

Originally posted by mnat801
Simply on the basis that he's beaten Sith Anakin, yeap.

I could turn around and say Anakin beats Kenobi on the basis Dooku beat Kenobi.

Originally posted by mnat801
The better evidence that Kenobi could defeat Dooku is the fact that he could defeat Sith Anakin.


I cant't believe...

As movie already shown, Dooku was faster, more skillful and more powerful then Kenobi.

"You won't get away this time, Dooku," Obi-Wan said. He and Obi-Wan
ignited their blue-bladed light-sabers and advanced on Dooku, who ignited his own red-bladed weapon. The beams of their lightsabers hummed and clashed as they moved across the chamber. Dooku defended himself effortlessly."

The two droids fired at Obi-Wan, but he batted their fired energy bolts back at them and cut them down as he moved fast for Dooku. Unfortunately, Dooku moved faster, extending his left hand toward Obi-Wan as he used the Force to lift the Jedi off his feet while at the same time constricting his throat. As Obi-Wan gasped, Anakin swung at Dooku from behind, but Dooku kicked Anakin's stomach with his left foot, smashing the young Jedi against a nearby wall.

Quotes from "Rise and Fall of Darth Vader", which is more consistent with the movie, then ROTS novel.

But even in this stupid ROTS novel Kenobi lost to Dooku. But wait! he lost to him in pure saber fight (I mean Dooku didn't even use force choke!).

Dooku was one or two leagues above Kenobi. Just like Mace, Yoda, Sidious, Plagueis, and even Anakin. Kenobi was able to beat Anakin only because he knows him perfectly, and Anakin was so stupid during the fight with Kenobi. But his skill was far superior.

is this ROTS kenobi and anakin or AOTC?

Originally posted by Arab Jedi
is this ROTS kenobi and anakin or AOTC?

ROTS, obviously.

Are we SERIOUSLY arguing Dooku Vs Kenobi?

SERIOUSLY?. It should be completely obvious Dooku is far above Kenobi.

Originally posted by mnat801
There is evidence that he can compete with Mace per defeating Dooku, but no concrete evidence he can definitely beat him.


He has no reasonable chance of defeating Windu.

His "in teh zone" moment against Dooku was a one-time, haxxed harnessing of the dark side while somehow maintaining a crystal clear head, and there's no evidence that he can turn it on at will. At baseline, Dooku seems capable of handling him with moderate difficulty.

And with Windu's vaapad, going "dark side in the zone" might even hurt him.



Um, except that Dooku casually dispatches Kenobi with a Force choke, and tosses him like a rag-doll across the room...

Wat Up Mental Master Han Obi Wan Kenobi Would Defeat Count Dooku 1 On 1.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I could turn around and say Anakin beats Kenobi on the basis Dooku beat Kenobi. That would make sense, only he didn't show that he could beat Kenobi in the Mustafar duel.

Originally posted by Zett
I cant't believe...

As movie already shown, Dooku was faster, more skillful and more powerful then Kenobi.

"You won't get away this time, Dooku," Obi-Wan said. He and Obi-Wan
ignited their blue-bladed light-sabers and advanced on Dooku, who ignited his own red-bladed weapon. The beams of their lightsabers hummed and clashed as they moved across the chamber. Dooku defended himself effortlessly."

The two droids fired at Obi-Wan, but he batted their fired energy bolts back at them and cut them down as he moved fast for Dooku. Unfortunately, Dooku moved faster, extending his left hand toward Obi-Wan as he used the Force to lift the Jedi off his feet while at the same time constricting his throat. As Obi-Wan gasped, Anakin swung at Dooku from behind, but Dooku kicked Anakin's stomach with his left foot, smashing the young Jedi against a nearby wall.

Quotes from "Rise and Fall of Darth Vader", which is more consistent with the movie, then ROTS novel.

But even in this stupid ROTS novel Kenobi lost to Dooku. But wait! he lost to him in pure saber fight (I mean Dooku didn't even use force choke!).

Dooku was one or two leagues above Kenobi. Just like Mace, Yoda, Sidious, Plagueis, and even Anakin. Kenobi was able to beat Anakin only because he knows him perfectly, and Anakin was so stupid during the fight with Kenobi. But his skill was far superior. In terms of canon, movies > novels. Dooku dispatched Kenobi with the force VERY EARLY in the fight, that indicates to me that he's the harder competition.

And if Dooku is 1 or 2 leagues above Kenobi, a Sith incarnate of Anakin should be in that league as well right? So then tell me why Sith Anakin wasn't able to clearly defeat Kenobi? Because he was stupid you say? Well you said the answer yourself.

And don't tell me his mindset was the reason for his loss, because his skill and prowess didn't seemed to be effected when killing the jedi at the temple. Plus Obi Wan was also in the midset to convert Anakin to the light side, meaning he was reluctant to kill him even though it was necessary.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Are we SERIOUSLY arguing Dooku Vs Kenobi?

SERIOUSLY?. It should be completely obvious Dooku is far above Kenobi. I'm arguing Obi Wan > Sith Anakin, meaning its possible for him to be greater than Dooku.

Originally posted by Master Han
Um, except that Dooku casually dispatches Kenobi with a Force choke, and tosses him like a rag-doll across the room... Just like how Maul forced pushed Kenobi into the wall when Kenobi was getting the upper hand..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v105/ctgirls/dalai-lama-laugh.gif

Originally posted by mnat801
I'm arguing Obi Wan > Sith Anakin, meaning its possible for him to be greater than Dooku.

But....

theres not buddy....

Originally posted by mnat801
That would make sense, only he didn't show that he could beat Kenobi in the Mustafar duel.

And Kenobi didn't show he could beat Dooku on the Invisible Hand. Despite having help he was completely humiliated. And it wasn't the first time either.

At least Skywalker wasn't out of his league when he fought Kenobi. On the other hand it's quite clear Kenobi was completely out of his league against Dooku.

From the whole Anakin>Dooku>Kenobi>/=Anakin fights in ROTS the biggest mismatch by far was Dooku vs Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And Kenobi didn't show he could beat Dooku on the Invisible Hand. Despite having help he was completely humiliated. And it wasn't the first time either.

At least Skywalker wasn't out of his league when he fought Kenobi. On the other hand it's quite clear Kenobi was completely out of his league against Dooku.

From the whole Anakin>Dooku>Kenobi>/=Anakin fights in ROTS the biggest mismatch by far was Dooku vs Obi-Wan. The way you put Anakin in such high esteem though makes it hard for me to believe he could be defeated by Obi wan who is frankly "1 or 2 leagues" away from Dooku/Anakin.

And a clear defeat after a long, hard fight sounds more convincing than an early and a suspcious force push to determine superiority.

But at the same time I do understand where you're coming from and so I acknowledge that. I just feel it doesn't add up.

Originally posted by mnat801
The way you put Anakin in such high esteem though makes it hard for me to believe he could be defeated by Obi wan who is frankly "1 or 2 leagues" away from Dooku/Anakin.

And a clear defeat after a long, hard fight sounds more convincing than an early and a suspcious force push to determine superiority.

But at the same time I do understand where you're coming from and so I acknowledge that. I just feel it doesn't add up.

Of course it doesn't add up. Dooku>Kenobi>/=Anakin>Dooku is the biggest mind boggler in the movies(the other one being Mace defeating Sidious when Yoda could not). And people on these boards have all sorts of theories on it like Sith Anakin being no match for Jedi Anakin due to not being in the right state of mind.

But of all those fights the widest gap was between Dooku and Kenobi. You can't call the Force attack suspicous when it was Dooku who was outnumbered, and when he outfought the 2 of them together at that point.

You also can't call it suspicous due to it happening twice in that fight. The fact that he disposed of Kenobi so quickly just confirms the huge difference between the 2.

I think Mace would feed off then anger of Anakin and beat him.. quicker than Kenobi would beat Fisto.. thus it would be Mace vs. kenobi alone or with Fisto tired and almost dead. EIther way Mace takes out kenobi

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course it doesn't add up. Dooku>Kenobi>/=Anakin>Dooku is the biggest mind boggler in the movies(the other one being Mace defeating Sidious when Yoda could not). And people on these boards have all sorts of theories on it like Sith Anakin being no match for Jedi Anakin due to not being in the right state of mind. It is a bit weird. Also the Mace > Sidious > Yoda idea. But if its truly Anakin > Dooku > Obi Wan, then Anakin, even with the state of mind he was in, should have beaten Kenobi with minimal difficulty. But he didn't even beat him. Sure, his state of mind did have a negative effect on him, but Obi Wan was also held back by being reluctant to kill his former best friend, and even succeeded in defeating him without killing him. So for me, even though Dooku>Kenobi>/=Anakin>Dooku may be unclear, it certainly doesn't make out to be Anakin > Dooku > Obi Wan. And even if you disagree with me, I hope you do agree that my opinion is at least a reasonable one.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But of all those fights the widest gap was between Dooku and Kenobi. You can't call the Force attack suspicous when it was Dooku who was outnumbered, and when he outfought the 2 of them together at that point. Good point.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You also can't call it suspicous due to it happening twice in that fight. The fact that he disposed of Kenobi so quickly just confirms the huge difference between the 2. But seeing that he used the force to dispose of Kenobi rather than through the use of saber to saber combat like in AOTC, the gap, if there is any, won't be as big as you make it out to be. Kenobi's recent feats against Maul and Sith Anakin, should make this more than clear.

The way I see it Dooku > Kenobi > Anakin > Dooku. Not everything is as clear as A > B > C in star wars. Dooku is the only person in SW that seems to be a real headache for Kenobi.

Originally posted by mnat801


But seeing that he used the force to dispose of Kenobi rather than through the use of saber to saber combat like in AOTC, the gap, if there is any, won't be as big as you make it out to be. Kenobi's recent feats against Maul and Sith Anakin, should make this more than clear.



Pure Saber skills are different. In terms of an all out it's quite clear Dooku >> Kenobi.

But even if Kenobi had TK equal to Dooku's, I just think Dooku seems to be the superior comabtant to Kenobi with the powerful kicks and simultaneous force attacks he's displayed numerous times in Saber fights.

Kenobi does have great feats against Maul and Sith Anakin. But Maul is not Dooku's equal, and Kenobi knows Anakin's moves better than anyone.
Also if Sith Anakin's TK Push equaled Kenobi did, and he also tanked that force push only as well as Kenobi's, then it's quite clear that Dooku would Force TK Sith Anakin all over the place.

@Darth Power well put buddy. I was about to jump in, but it seems you have this under control.

And I would put Dooku above Kenobi with a saber forsure. Not by leagues or anything but above.

This is a good match. Depends on the setting.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
@Darth Power well put buddy. I was about to jump in, but it seems you have this under control.

And I would put Dooku above Kenobi with a saber forsure. Not by leagues or anything but above. "Under control" lol

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Pure Saber skills are different. In terms of an all out it's quite clear Dooku >> Kenobi.

But even if Kenobi had TK equal to Dooku's, I just think Dooku seems to be the superior comabtant to Kenobi with the powerful kicks and simultaneous force attacks he's displayed numerous times in Saber fights.

Kenobi does have great feats against Maul and Sith Anakin. But Maul is not Dooku's equal, and Kenobi knows Anakin's moves better than anyone.
Also if Sith Anakin's TK Push equaled Kenobi did, and he also tanked that force push only as well as Kenobi's, then it's quite clear that Dooku would Force TK Sith Anakin all over the place. Anakin knows Kenobi's moves more than anyone. How is this an advantage for Kenobi if it isn't an advantage for Anakin?

Plus, if Dooku is clearly above Kenobi, then Kenobi is clearly above Sith Anakin. As I said before, Dooku force pushed and choked Kenobi, but he didn't actually defeat him. Unlike how Kenobi defeated Sith Anakin.

At the same time, there certainly isn't clear evidence of Kenobi > Dooku. But that doesn't simply mean Anakin > kenobi.

Originally posted by mnat801
Anakin knows Kenobi's moves more than anyone. How is this an advantage for Kenobi if it isn't an advantage for Anakin?

Problem is it makes it a completely different fight. So you can't use that and compare it to Dooku vs Skywalker, and then use that to judge Kenobi > Dooku. Which has already been proven to be false when Dooku stomped Kenobi.

Originally posted by mnat801
Plus, if Dooku is clearly above Kenobi, then Kenobi is clearly above Sith Anakin.

Well no because Dooku stomped Kenobi. Whilst Kenobi and Skywalker were pretty even.

Originally posted by mnat801
As I said before, Dooku force pushed and choked Kenobi, but he didn't actually defeat him.

LOL He left him knocked out. Could have easily killed him. How is that not defeating Kenobi?

Even if we're talking about pure Sabers it's not like Kenobi ever had the advantage over Dooku. Whilst Dooku did show a clear advantage over Kenobi and Skywalker in that scene where he smacked them both.


Originally posted by mnat801
Unlike how Kenobi defeated Sith Anakin.

It was a long drawn out fight. Could have gone either way with such an even fight. Kenobi won that one through an environmental advantage. No guarantee of that happening in a rematch at all. But for argument sake I'll agree Kenobi >/= Sith Anakin.

However there is a guarantee Dooku would beat Kenobi again, simply because he stomped him. There was no equality there at all. Dooku was simply >> Kenobi.


Originally posted by mnat801
At the same time, there certainly isn't clear evidence of Kenobi > Dooku. But that doesn't simply mean Anakin > kenobi.


Look fact is Skywalker has tanked all Dooku's force attacks in TCW. Then Dooku completely stomped Kenobi with the Force. Then Sith Anakin and Kenobi were completely equal in their force push contest.

So there's only 2 possible explanations for that. Either Sith Anakin was weaker than TCW Anakin in the Force. Or ROTS Dooku > TCW Dooku in the Force. Take your pick : )

Or there's some Rock-Paper-Scissors action going on. Dooku can slip past Kenobi's guard, but Anakin can't power through it. Kenobi can't last long enough against Dooku's skill to find an opening, but he can against Anakin's.

Originally posted by Q99
Or there's some Rock-Paper-Scissors action going on. Dooku can slip past Kenobi's guard, but Anakin can't power through it. Kenobi can't last long enough against Dooku's skill to find an opening, but he can against Anakin's.

In Pure Sabers/Close combat with everyone's TK being equal, I guess it's entirely possible that Dooku >/= Kenobi but against Skywalker Dooku lacks the defensive prowess to defend against Skywalker whilst Kenobi can handle his offense much better. (Although my personal guess would be Kenobi handling Skywalker better is also to do with them knowing each others moves so well).

As for their proven Force TK abilities:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER



Look fact is Skywalker has tanked all Dooku's force attacks in TCW. Then Dooku completely stomped Kenobi with the Force. Then Sith Anakin and Kenobi were completely equal in their force push contest.

So there's only 2 possible explanations for that. Either Sith Anakin was weaker than TCW Anakin in the Force. Or ROTS Dooku > TCW Dooku in the Force. Take your pick : )

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Anakin%20Skywalker/2139243-new_picture__68__zpse3b650ee.jpg

Size of what he's moving in comparison to a starfighter:

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Anakin%20Skywalker/2139232-new_picture__57__zps7c89763c.jpg

Wait? The starfighter's landing on that platform he was moving?

Yeah.

Well then the mystery of Kenobi stalemating Skywalker in the Force becomes ever more puzzling.

Anakin sucked in the end of RotS.

Skywalker should've been able to defeat Kenobi. He didn't really only due to the plot, imo. The whole "master vs. apprentice ultimate final battle" thing. It just fit well with the whole story and Lucas could explain Vader's suit that way... In reality, Kenobi shouldn't be able to defeat Anakin. That's the way I see it, anyway.

Agreed. Anakin is better in every way possible.

Characters are as Powerful As The Plot Demands in Lucas's world. Hell, even in the Whedonverse.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Characters are as Powerful As The Plot Demands in Lucas's world. Hell, even in the Whedonverse.

I know. It sucks.

IIRC, Whedon once claimed he left such things ambiguous so as not to restrain him in further scripts. No-name vampires can warp steel doors in the pilot, bending it like cardboard. But Angel can't escape a steel cage in season 2 when Kendra locks him inside.

I see their perspective, but it shatters the suspension of disbelief for me.

It shouldn't be that way.

A lot of PIS in the Whedon-verse too. It seems that if Vampires just consistently used Machine guns(perhaps even ordinary guns) Buffy would be long gone.

And man Kendra the slayer got killed pretty easily.

Still I loved those shows.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
It shouldn't be that way.

Right.

Now TCW was right in debunking the silly logic ascribed to by LeGenD and Rookwood. It's not math. Y might beat X's ass on most days, but X can still beat Y depending on contextual factors.

That said, when the gap is profound (Barriss and Anakin, for example)... contextual factors better be pretty damn significant for it not to be a total curbstomp.

Barriss is just that good, bro.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Right.

Now TCW was right in debunking the silly logic ascribed to by LeGenD and Rookwood. It's not math. Y might beat X's ass on most days, but X can still beat Y depending on contextual factors.

That said, when the gap is profound (Barriss and Anakin, for example)... contextual factors better be pretty damn significant for it not to be a total curbstomp.

That does make more sense than what you said about the Whedonverse.

I found Barriss vs. Anakin simply ridiculous. Even though Anakin beat her, I dislike how he didn't pwn her. He should've. Stupid TCW writers.

However, Kenobi vs. Oppress and Maul was quite different, and it does fit the "Y > X on most days, but X < Y on cotextual factors".

Yeah and I especially like Filoni's "being in the right state of mind" factor. Fact is some people will just have good days while their opponents might be off on that day.

It would be silly and unrealistic to assume everyone's at their peak every single time they fight.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Anakin%20Skywalker/2139243-new_picture__68__zpse3b650ee.jpg

Size of what he's moving in comparison to a starfighter:

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/Anakin%20Skywalker/2139232-new_picture__57__zps7c89763c.jpg

Lol good find. And this is not even peak CW's Anakin. He still has his douc...padawan haircut.