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The "optimistic" numbers from the Egyptian security forces were that they only killed twenty people today. The Muslim Brotherhood claims hundreds are dead.

This situation is really interesting to me. What was the last time we had an underdog we couldn't root for? It seems to be paralyzing commentators and international groups that would like to respond.

it certainly strains the idealism of people that are "pro-democracy"

push come to shove, I'm rarely a fan of the military deposing a ruler, though similar events have happened in Turkey and it is almost undeniable that their actions protected democracy in that nation.

Yeah...I have little sympathy for the Muslim Brotherhood.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yeah...I have little sympathy for the Muslim Brotherhood.

your sympathy is trivial, they were undeniably elected and still have massive support from the Egyptian population.

Originally posted by Oliver North
your sympathy is trivial, they were undeniably elected and still have massive support from the Egyptian population.

Massive support =/= majority support.

And one of the principles of a democratic republic is the protection of minority rights. By their name, the Brotherhood clearly wants to model legislation and political organization on Islamic statutes, which means that religious beliefs will be forced upon those who are either not Muslim, or are a different sect of the Islamic faith than whichever one dominates the organization.

And since faith is based on...well, faith, and not empiricism, it's not ethical to force others to adhere to it, which you would have to do if you wish to make your religious motivations worth more than a cute name. Or is their legislation going to be optional to follow now?

=-------

To make a melodramatic analogy, that a majority once supported segregation really does nothing to justify it.

and at least dozens of dead protestors, overwhelmingly non-violent, killed in a series of massacres by the same people who deposed the democratically elected leader give the military the moral authority?

Originally posted by Oliver North
and at least dozens of dead protestors, overwhelmingly non-violent, killed in a series of massacres by the same people who deposed the democratically elected leader give the military the moral authority?

Did I actually say the military had moral authority? I'm just pointing out that the Muslim Brotherhood doesn't really either.

Originally posted by Master Han
Did I actually say the military had moral authority? I'm just pointing out that the Muslim Brotherhood doesn't really either.

no, but they had the democratic authority

Originally posted by Oliver North
no, but they had the democratic authority

And? Segregation was also democratically supported.

right, because democracy is only worth defending when the people we like win

I'm just pointing out that I don't feel sympathy for the Muslim Brotherhood. Nowhere do I indicate support for a military dictatorship, or whatever.

Originally posted by Master Han
Did I actually say the military had moral authority? I'm just pointing out that the Muslim Brotherhood doesn't really either.

The Muslim Brotherhood has a huge amount of moral high ground. The new government has shutdown from MB new stations.

Originally posted by Master Han
I'm just pointing out that I don't feel sympathy for the Muslim Brotherhood. Nowhere do I indicate support for a military dictatorship, or whatever.

you don't have sympathy for a group of people whose democratically elected leader was overthrown, are being systemically oppressed by a military apparatus of the new regime and are being murdered in the streets for non-violent protest?

and you have the audacity to try and use the civil rights movement to support your point?

smh

What is it with your strawman distortion that I somehow condone the actions of the military?

Oh, I feel sorry for the people who were shot. But not the organization's purpose and ideology as a whole.

you don't think Morsi should have been removed from power? Even though he was dramatically increasing the power of the president and imprisoning journalists and political opponents? Morsi himself was acting very much like a dictator and theocrat.

...what?

I was referring to the military's current actions.

like their current action of removing Morsi from power?

What? No, your point about them shooting people.

I know this might sound crazy, but there might be some connection between those events...

What, so overthrowing Morsi requires shooting protestors now? They're two connected actions that can nonetheless be judged independently.

And why are you suddenly switching positions?

wait, what is my position?

Not an expert, but can this really be attributed to the "pro-democracy" movement, rather than the opportunistic military?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Not an expert, but can this really be attributed to the "pro-democracy" movement, rather than the opportunistic military?

it depends on who you define as the pro-democracy group, but I tend to agree with you. The military saw an opportunity to gain back much of the power it lost in the overthrow of Mubarak.

The official death toll from the Ministry of Health is now 279.

Obviously the western world is deeply uncomfortable at the military arbitrarily causing power shifts like this, as in a properly functioning society that shouldn't be possible.

There's the trouble though- Egypt is not (yet) a properly functioning society, and a thing to be taken on board here is that there is a modern tendency to view democracy as the final goal, the ultimate achievement of a society to be defended at all costs.

Actually, that's never really been the case. The things we associate with modern western society, which I think we can reasonably agree for all its flaws is the best form of global society going, don't actually come from democracy but certain innate rights like the rule of law, free speech, open political debate etc. Whilst we have found democracy to be a very conducive way to reach these things, we have plenty of lessons from history that show us that the two do not necessarily go together, and there is a lingering suspicion that the Muslim Brotherhood, democratic mandate or otherwise, was not going in that direction.

Successful democracy really needs more than just holding elections. There's a cultural shift needed as well.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Obviously the western world is deeply uncomfortable at the military arbitrarily causing power shifts like this, as in a properly functioning society that shouldn't be possible.

There's the trouble though- Egypt is not (yet) a properly functioning society, and a thing to be taken on board here is that there is a modern tendency to view democracy as the final goal, the ultimate achievement of a society to be defended at all costs.

Actually, that's never really been the case. The things we associate with modern western society, which I think we can reasonably agree for all its flaws is the best form of global society going, don't actually come from democracy but certain innate rights like the rule of law, free speech, open political debate etc. Whilst we have found democracy to be a very conducive way to reach these things, we have plenty of lessons from history that show us that the two do not necessarily go together, and there is a lingering suspicion that the Muslim Brotherhood, democratic mandate or otherwise, was not going in that direction.

Successful democracy really needs more than just holding elections. There's a cultural shift needed as well.

Furthermore, isn't it sort of hypocritical to criticize the Egyptian military of abusing the democratic process without looking deeper into the United State's own dubious practices? Various administrations have supported various coups of questionable popular support.

we support democracy. yes. we do. wait, they elected that guy? er....is there any way we can get him out while still appearing to support the public? no? well, just get him out anyway i guess. condolences to the public. what's that? they don't care about condolences? tear gas, then.

/newhart

Just because Egyptians are good at protesting and creating revolution does not mean they will be able to maintain a stable democracy. I think Benjamin Franklin said some quote about this before...

There isn't much hope as it stands. A coalition government is the only answer but unfortunately that is all but impossible as any supporters of sharia such as the Muslim brotherhood believe all law comes from Allah and men don't have the authority to enact law that contradicts sharia. So there would never be any much needed compromise.

I also think there's bigger forces at work. The west has realised the double edged sword of supporting the Arab spring. They helped financially, politically and militarily to remove several non elected but relatively stable and secular regimes which have been replaced with much more hostile (towards western interests) but democratically elected governments. So now the west is stuck in this odd position as being seen to want to support democracy but willing to oust Whoever gets into power if they don't like the result. The only likely reason this has been instigated in Egypt first is it is one of the most strategically important countries in the world because of the Suez canal. Given that one of the Muslim brotherhood's primary goals is to help remove western 'imperialism' from Islamic countries then it's logical to assume they were about to start making things difficult with regards to shipping on the Suez. Imagine what that would do to the world economy. One leading member of the Muslim brotherhood called for the closing of the canal immediately when they 1st came into power and it rocketed oil prices up albeit only for a short time but that was one single comment.

Personally I don't think it'll be the 1st post Arab spring government to fall. Libya will go again within 2 years. The only one that might last is Tunisia but already the political assassinations have started. Here's hoping they can make the most of their tourist boom while it lasts before it all goes **** up again.

Things seem pretty dim right now in Egypt. Let's just hope they don't spiral down into civil war.

Originally posted by jaden101
There isn't much hope as it stands. A coalition government is the only answer but unfortunately that is all but impossible as any supporters of sharia such as the Muslim brotherhood believe all law comes from Allah and men don't have the authority to enact law that contradicts sharia. So there would never be any much needed compromise.

It's also impossible to negotiate with people when you kill 500 of their supporters in the streets of the capitol.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
It's also impossible to negotiate with people when you kill 500 of their supporters in the streets of the capitol.

Even if there was no killing it'd still be impossible for any kind of coalition. Democracy and governance of law enacted by man is completely at odds with sharia. Secular or non Muslims will not accept governance under sharia and the Muslim brotherhood won't accept anything but sharia. There is no middle ground.

Can you imagine though if really hard line Muslims got into power and did to the pyramids what they did in Afghanistan to the giant Buddhas of Bamiyan?

I don't know if I've ever heard of Muslims in Egypt who hated the pyramids. I think all Egyptians realize that if it weren't for their archaeological wealth, Egypt would be another forgotten country like Sudan or Oman.

I understand democracy should be held no matter what, but what happens when ideals aren't enough? It was clear Morsi was going to establish a repressive theocracy if he remained in power any longer. They gave him a chance. He refused. I understand, as an ideal, that the Muslims of Egypt have the free right to support Morsi, but he was going to violate human rights. If Obama stands behind Morsi's supporters, he backs the ideal of democracy, but if he stands behind the pro-coup supporters, he stands behind human rights, and I think that's more important.

All I know is all eyes will be on the PotUS. All eyes. I would love to see Mitt Romney handle this situation.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I don't know if I've ever heard of Muslims in Egypt who hated the pyramids. I think all Egyptians realize that if it weren't for their archaeological wealth, Egypt would be another forgotten country like Sudan or Oman.

Nobody hated the Buddha statues in Afghanistan enough to blow them up until they did. Amazing what opportunity can do. I'm sure there are hard liners who view the pyramids as an affront to Islam. There's always some morons out there.

As for Egypt being forgotten without its archaeological sites. Maybe. But it still has control over 1 of the 2 most important waterways on the planet.

to be fair, there are massive differences between the Taliban and the Muslim Brotherhood, even just looking at the societies they come from. The Brotherhood's interpretation of Sharia is nowhere near as strict.

I totally see your point, and its not to say with absolute freedom the Brotherhood wouldn't be against the pyramids or killing people in soccer fields, it would just be a hugely dramatic shift in their MO.

I almost broke my face cringing at Obama saying the US is cancelling joint training operations with Egypt's military because they've killed people and are eroding the rights of citizens. The irony is clearly lost on him of the US military killing more people than any other force on the planet and the US continuously looking for new ways to erode its own and other country's rights.

Originally posted by jaden101
I almost broke my face cringing at Obama saying the US is cancelling joint training operations with Egypt's military because they've killed people and are eroding the rights of citizens. The irony is clearly lost on him of the US military killing more people than any other force on the planet and the US continuously looking for new ways to erode its own and other country's rights.
Either the irony is lost to him or perhaps he doesn't care...

Originally posted by jaden101
I almost broke my face cringing at Obama saying the US is cancelling joint training operations with Egypt's military because they've killed people and are eroding the rights of citizens.

interesting fact that I never see reported when people are talking about military aid and such with Egypt:

For all that America does give (1 billion), the UAE gives twice that and the Saudis 4 times as much. As symbolic as these gestures are, for the Egyptian military American aid is a drop in the bucket.

I agree about the hypocrisy though, it is amusing in a terrible way.

The problem isn't the concept of democracy. The reason I don't see hypocrisy with the US's position of supporting the coup is that while the US also practices democracy, we only do so with political parties. We make sure to separate religion from state pretty much for this very reason. I think this is the most egregious example of religion vs state seen in the modern era. What happens when an unstoppable force (state) meets an immovable object (religion)? Chaos happens. Chaos that ripples everywhere.

The type of chaos that would make for a good political-action-thriller starring Channing Tatum.

Originally posted by Oliver North
interesting fact that I never see reported when people are talking about military aid and such with Egypt:

For all that America does give (1 billion), the UAE gives twice that and the Saudis 4 times as much. As symbolic as these gestures are, for the Egyptian military American aid is a drop in the bucket.

I agree about the hypocrisy though, it is amusing in a terrible way.
Well now, I can't help but think that America is the main military donor to both of those counties as well.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
The type of chaos that would make for a good political-action-thriller starring Channing Tatum. Ew, no. Jeremy Renner belongs in Egypt. Tatum co-stars.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Well now, I can't help but think that America is the main military donor to both of those counties as well.

huh, I hadn't thought of that

iiOEuTw0INk

Originally posted by Oliver North
huh, I hadn't thought of that
Donor might be incorrect, as it seems that "military aid" sometimes includes weapons' sales in addition to direct financial support or transfer of hardware/training, but most of Saudi Arabia and the UAE's military hardware is American made, though for the purposes of fighting proxy wars they're not averse to buying cheaper Chinese and Russian equipment for their clients.

If America cut off all military aid, training, and weapons' sales to the Middle East the long term effect would be a huge boom for the Chinese and Russian arms industries, but the long term effect would most likely be a precipitous drop in the quality of Middle Eastern armies. Compare Syria (supplied by Russia and China) to Egypt. Even if the Muslim Brotherhood were to militarize as the Syrian opposition did, I don't see them being nearly as successful as the Free Syrian Army, not with the Egyptian military equipped as it is.

The situation is getting worse, especially in the Sinai. I hope this doesn't turn into another Syria. As bad as things are in the Middle East, it's nothing compared to the chaos that would ensue if Egypt fragmented. At the same time, I really don't want peace and stability to be achieved at the cost of a massacre. As I said before, Egypt's military CAN restore order, but it would be at the cost of Egypt's existence as a civil nation.

In all honesty, it's difficult to see an easy way out for Egypt. Even if everything with the ruling party was fine (and of course that's a big issue in of itself), the clear problem is a military with far too much political clout. It's near impossible to run a democracy in that situation, and the problem here is that the military shrewdly saved its own skin by deposing Mubarak, and hence survived the Arab Spring with its power intact. The military has long been Egypt's curse.

It's terrible, of course, but in a way this situation has finally created an opportunity. Like I say, the military has been shrewd, and they didn't even depose Morsi until they got political assent from the judiciary and the supreme religious leader etc, which did give them a layer of respectability to be acting in the people's interests. But now they've started, basically, shooting on sight, that layer has gone and now the opportunity may exist to break their power.

But if that just ends up in an Islamist-dominated society lacking what we would recognise as proper rights in a free nation, then it was all for nothing.

Feels very odd to write this but I agree with Ush.

1st time for everything.

Egypt is the beautiful city in the world. I like Egypt.

Mr Smith just wants to watch the world burn. From the Great Depression to the front lines of WWII, he's unhappy. He's been plotting WWIII since he became head of CIA half a century ago.

But it's not going to come from Egypt of Syria, it will come about from the Holy War to end all wars, AI.

Get off the drugs.

NEVER

But... you're hogging them all.

Can't touch this