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Alright. So lets say Kenobi engages Dooku in a contest of SABER SKILLS no force allowed.

Who wins!?.

Personally I say Dooku still pretty much PWNS him.

Dooku should win. Don't think he will pwn though.

Good fight, but I think Dooku edges it out.

Dooku would never pwn Kenobi in a sabers only fight.. In fact, Kenobi can and will get some wins... not enough for a majoirty.. but he will take some.

Obi-Wan.

Mace said he was the ideal fighter to take out Grievous. Ergo, Obi-Wan is better than Mace and Yoda, meaning he's better than Dooku so Obi-Wan wins.

Let me know when you decide to answer my last post in our other dicussion from last week.. ya know.. the one I lead you right into thinking you made a point.

Sweetheart, it took you 4 days to summon the testicular fortitude to only partially address your complete annihilation at my hands.

Since you're not in a particular hurry, I'm not sure why I should be to put you down again. You'll get it as soon as my secretary (Neph) pencils in some time.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Dooku would never pwn Kenobi in a sabers only fight.. In fact, Kenobi can and will get some wins... not enough for a majoirty.. but he will take some.

I don't see how he would win. I think best he could hope for is a stalemate. Just don't think he has the offence to get past Dooku's defenses.

And Dooku will take a majority.

Sorry Kurupt, he's fully booked.


In my ass!

Giggity!

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sweetheart, it took you 4 days to summon the testicular fortitude to only partially address your complete annihilation at my hands.

Since you're not in a particular hurry, I'm not sure why I should be to put you down again. You'll get it as soon as my secretary (Neph) pencils in some time.

See this is why I like you most of the time... This was a funny post. Problem is, and what you can't counter, is I was out of town (as stated) and not posting in any threads. You on the otherhand, were in town and still posting in other threads. Decidedly different. Funny post though

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sorry Kurupt, he's fully booked.


In my ass!

Great Response Neph HAHHA

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Alright. So lets say Kenobi engages Dooku in a contest of SABER SKILLS no force allowed.

Who wins!?.

Personally I say Dooku still pretty much PWNS him. You would say that, wouldn't you.

Anyway, if both are in their peak, Dooku wins 10/10. If they are both in their ROTS incarnations, imo 50/50 due to:

1. Obi Wan is at his peak in ROTS
2. Dooku's age would effect his prowess therefore slower by ROTS
3. Obi Wan is in league with Pre suit Vader (who I personally believe could still beat Dooku).

Originally posted by mnat801
You would say that, wouldn't you.

Anyway, if both are in their peak, Dooku wins 10/10. If they are both in their ROTS incarnations, imo 50/50 due to:

1. Obi Wan is at his peak in ROTS
2. Dooku's age would effect his prowess therefore slower by ROTS
3. Obi Wan is in league with Pre suit Vader (who I personally believe could still beat Dooku).

I have no clue what you'r talking about. Dooku was in his peak in ROTS.

Also Kenobi might last a few minutes against Dooku in a saber fight but would have no chance of victory. Dooku would win with say mid diff.

Dude, Kenobi beat a mind****ed verson of Vader. He only stood up to Anakin because he knew his moves.

Also what do you mean by "you would say that, wouldint you".

Obi Wan Kenobi Win. He Beat Anakin Who Beat Dooku & That A Fact.

Obi Wan Kenobi Is The Best Jedi Besides Yoda Anyways.

Banjo Broski Wat Up Your One Of My Bitches & Count Doku Win With Ease & That Is Final

Originally posted by Mental Mr.Bison
Banjo Broski Wat Up Your One Of My Bitches & Count Doku Win With Ease & That Is Final

Mental Mr.Bison Wat Up Retard You Are My ***** & You Jack Of To Female Bisons You Cannibal Fagget.

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No Wonder This Topic Smell Like Shit Ever Since Mr.Bison Post On It Okey.

Honestly, it could go either way. One thing to keep in mind is how Dooku struggled against Anakin's strength in their duels while Kenobi was able to keep up for much longer during the Mustafar duel. Stamina could decide the match if it only comes down to saber work without any serious force application.

Originally posted by Vensai
Honestly, it could go either way. One thing to keep in mind is how Dooku struggled against Anakin's strength in their duels while Kenobi was able to keep up for much longer during the Mustafar duel. Stamina could decide the match if it only comes down to saber work without any serious force application.

Well Anakin's strength isn't an issue here. Becaise neither of them has to deal with that.

But according to Rise and Fall of Darth Vader, the reason Dooku got Kenobi in a choke was because he simply out fought him.

That won't change too much in a pure Saber duel. Kenobi won't go down easy in this scenario but he will still go down.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well Anakin's strength isn't an issue here. Becaise neither of them has to deal with that.

But according to Rise and Fall of Darth Vader, the reason Dooku got Kenobi in a choke was because he simply out fought him.

That won't change too much in a pure Saber duel. Kenobi won't go down easy in this scenario but he will still go down.
I'm pretty sure it was because of Dookus powerful force abilities. This is just sabers. Does Makashi have any advantage against a Form three user though?

Originally posted by Vensai
I'm pretty sure it was because of Dookus powerful force abilities. This is just sabers. Does Makashi have any advantage against a Form three user though?

The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader states he got Kenobi in that force choke because he was faster than Kenobi.

And if you watch that scene it makes sense because Dooku was clearly just outfighting them both at that point. It wasn't a simple case of using the Force. It was Parrying back both Kenobi's and Skywalkers Sabers, kick slamming Skywalker whilst catching Kenobi off guard with a choke.

The RotS novel suggests parity in terms of speed though.

Does it? Didn't Dooku knock Kenobi out with a blindingly fast flying kick in the novel?

And at another point Kenobi's defense is so fast that Dooku dared not even attempt an attack. And before then he moves so fast he appears to vanish to Dooku.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And at another point Kenobi's defense is so fast that Dooku dared not even attempt an attack.


True, but that was while he was fighting both of them. Perhaps his Saber defenses were too fast to breach (due to his style) but Dooku was still fast enough to kick him, or just generally moved faster than him so he could parry off his attacks and catch him off guard with a force choke or whatever.

Originally posted by Nephthys
AAnd before then he moves so fast he appears to vanish to Dooku.

Which kind of proves the whole "he's too fast for me to see" thing is clearly hyperbole in SW books. As if Kenobi's actually too fast for Dooku to even see.

Anyway the description in "The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader" seems most in line with what we see in the movie.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anyway the description in "The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader" seems most in line with what we see in the movie.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
True, but that was while he was fighting both of them. Perhaps his Saber defenses were too fast to breach (due to his style) but Dooku was still fast enough to kick him, or just generally moved faster than him so he could parry off his attacks and catch him off guard with a force choke or whatever.



Which kind of proves the whole "he's too fast for me to see" thing is clearly hyperbole in SW books. As if Kenobi's actually too fast for Dooku to even see.

Dooku was only facing Kenobi at the time. I think its definitely more that it was just that fast, the quote is 'blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike'. Bewilderingly fast definitely makes it seem pretty fast. Furthermore, later Dooku tries to force Kenobi to disengage and jump away, but 'Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper.' Its passages like that which make me think Kenobi has more of a chance than some give him credit for.

It isn't hyperbole: '"Very well, then," the Jedi said, and shot straight upward over Dooku's head so fast it seemed he'd vanished.'

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
I have no clue what you'r talking about. Dooku was in his peak in ROTS.

Also Kenobi might last a few minutes against Dooku in a saber fight but would have no chance of victory. Dooku would win with say mid diff.

Dude, Kenobi beat a mind****ed verson of Vader. He only stood up to Anakin because he knew his moves.

Also what do you mean by "you would say that, wouldint you". Dooku was well past his peak by ROTS. He was 83 when he was killed. His peak was around 40, when he was still in the jedi order. Plus Ben Kenobi was slow as hell when he was only in his fifties.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku was only facing Kenobi at the time. I think its definitely more that it was just that fast, the quote is 'blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike'. Bewilderingly fast definitely makes it seem pretty fast. Furthermore, later Dooku tries to force Kenobi to disengage and jump away, but 'Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper.' Its passages like that which make me think Kenobi has more of a chance than some give him credit for.

That's fine, but my only problem with it is that in the same novel Dooku's fast enough to knock Kenobi out with a flying kick (same in the comic).

In the movie he does use the force on Kenobi, but why's he getting the opportunity to do that when he's fighting them both off? I just think he was simply outfighting Kenobi, that's all. And if he can slam kick Skywalker I don't see any reason why he wouldn't be able to do that to Kenobi in a one on one at some point in the fight.

I do agree Kenobi will be tough to take down in a one on one pure Saber duel, but I still think Dooku will do it every time.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It isn't hyperbole: '"Very well, then," the Jedi said, and shot straight upward over Dooku's head so fast it seemed he'd vanished.'

So Kenobi leaps too fast for Dooku to follow?


Originally posted by mnat801
Dooku was well past his peak by ROTS. He was 83 when he was killed. His peak was around 40, when he was still in the jedi order. Plus Ben Kenobi was slow as hell when he was only in his fifties.

Whether Dooku was in his peak or not is of little consequence. The fact is as of ROTS Kenobi was no match for Dooku.



Kenobi has more votes than Dooku? What the heck?

''Vanished'' is just another way to say ''too fast for the eye to see''. The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader has retconned the idea that Kenobi is faster than Dooku either way.

On-topic, Dooku will win every time, but Kenobi would give him good fights.

Even if that is what it translates to and even if it is hyperbole (which I don't think it is), the obvious intent is that Kenobi moved too fast for Dooku to properly keep up with.

The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader is a) from Anakins perspective, and as I recall Anakin had just gotten a boot to the face at that point and b) is maybe on a lower tier to the RotS novel since it was line-read by Lucas.

Either way, I only said it suggested parity. Kenobi definitely isn't faster than him. The above quotes suggest he is, but Dooku taking him out and RoDV suggest the opposite. I think its a good compromise to call them about equals in terms of speed.

I don't. That the novelization was line-edited does not mean it cannot be retconned, and if you for some reason want to regard the feat in TRaFoDV as non-canon, Dooku has better speed feats in general.

Intrepid, where are my obscure Sidious quotes from lesser known sources like the galaxy guide, insider magazines, etc.

In my butt. Come and get em'!

But seriously, I haven't had time to check yet. I'll let you know if/when I find anything.

Works that are on a higher level of canonicity cannot be retconned by those that are lower than them, even if they're more recent.

I'm not saying its non-canon, merely pointing out that Anakins observations at that point are about as objective as, well as objective as someone who's just gotten kicked in the face.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Works that are on a higher level of canonicity cannot be retconned by those that are lower than them, even if they're more recent.
According to?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not saying its non-canon, merely pointing out that Anakins observations at that point are about as objective as, well as objective as someone who's just gotten kicked in the face.
I'm reading the whole fight right now and Anakin got kicked after Dooku choked Kenobi.

Canon.


Hmmm, well his memory is still suspect after getting kicked like that.

The two droids fired at Obi-Wan, but he batted their fired energy bolts back at them and cut them down as he moved fast for Dooku. Unfortunately, Dooku moved faster, extending his left hand toward Obi-Wan as he used the Force to lift the Jedi off his feet while at the same time constricting his throat. As Obi-Wan gasped, Anakin swung at Dooku from behind, but Dooku kicked Anakin's stomach with his left foot, smashing the young Jedi against a nearby wall.

I have the book myself. Its a good read.

So we agree that Dooku is faster than Obi-Wan?

Good.

You hate me, don't you?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Intrepid, where are my obscure Sidious quotes from lesser known sources like the galaxy guide, insider magazines, etc.
Not sure if you know about the quote that states Palpatine is the most powerful being ever per ANH.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You hate me, don't you?
Nah, I like you.

B-baka! >_<

Dooku wins everytime but Kenobi gives a good fight.

Isn't makashi particularly effective against soresu?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
''Vanished'' is just another way to say ''too fast for the eye to see''. The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader has retconned the idea that Kenobi is faster than Dooku either way.

On-topic, Dooku will win every time, but Kenobi would give him good fights.

What on God's Green Earth are you talking about here.. The rise and fall of Darth Vader in no way has any rectonning power over the novel line read by lucas. Unless that book was read by lucas with the same vigor (it wasn't) then it can do so such thing and did no such. It wasnt even from the perspecitve of an omniscient narrator and further invalidates any such thoughts of a recton. I thought you were better than this intre.

Dooku will not win everytime and in fact will lose some fights. If kenobi can last against and more powerful fast foe in Anakin and not get broken down... how is the weaker striking Dooku going to get the job done. He's not going to outlast kenobi and he doesn't have more stamina than a peak kenobi. He will win some based on his great skill.. but he'll also lose some but eventually getting lead into a mistake. The ONLY time Dooku ever gained an advantage on Kenobi was via the force.. never in pure sabers against master kenobi.

We can compare who they've fought against. Ventress? Obi-Wan fights evenly with her. Dooku beats her. Grievous? Obi-Wan's beaten him and lost to him. Dooku has beaten 2003 Grievous.

He also trained The General and Ventress two bad example to use in trying to compare to two. Even still, kenobi also beat them and didn't need to train them and know them in and out to do so.

Not bad examples. On-screen, Kenobi has more fights with Ventress than Dooku has, and Grievous is a master of all seven forms which would've made it unpredictable for Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER Just don't think he has the offence to get past Dooku's defenses.

And Dooku will take a majority.
Clearly he doesn't as he is a Soresu practitioner. But I don't see how Dooku can give Kenobi harder time than two brothers combined or enraged Anakin. I say either stalemate or until either of them gets tired.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
and Grievous is a master of all seven forms which would've made it unpredictable for Dooku.

Really?.

Old Grievous was, pretty sure it's confirmed in LoE.

Edit: Can't find it (his Magnaguards were programmed in all seven forms though, and Mace has said that one must except that Grievous can attack in every form).

Originally posted by Intrepid37
We can compare who they've fought against. Ventress? Obi-Wan fights evenly with her. Dooku beats her. Grievous? Obi-Wan's beaten him and lost to him. Dooku has beaten 2003 Grievous.
Thats when he first appeared. He only got more experienced after that. Dooku was mentioned to find their duels challenging by LoE.

This Topic Is Smelly

& Obi Wan Kenobi Win With Ease He Far Faster & Way Stronger

Originally posted by Banjo Broski
This Topic Is Smelly

& Obi Wan Kenobi Win With Ease He Far Faster & Way Stronger
Please actually contribute to the topic with actual arguments.

Vensai Don't Listen To Mental Banjo Broski He Is A Stalker & Traitor & Is My *****

Originally posted by Mental Mr.Bison
Vensai Don't Listen To Mental Banjo Broski He Is A Stalker & Traitor & Is My *****

SHUT UP MENTAL MR.Bison You Are My ***** You Are A Cockaroach & A Peace Of Shit & A Vermain & You Jack Of To Female Bisons You Mental ****.

Wtf?

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Originally posted by Mental Mr.Bison
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Originally posted by Intrepid37
Grievous? Obi-Wan's beaten him and lost to him.

Heard this a couple of times now from you and Tempest. When exactly did Kenobi actually lose to Grievous?

Originally posted by Arhael
Clearly he doesn't as he is a Soresu practitioner. But I don't see how Dooku can give Kenobi harder time than two brothers combined or enraged Anakin.

Well Grievous, Ventress, Maul and Skywalker have all landed kicks on Kenobi.

If Dooku lands a couple of those Uber kicks he landed on Ventress in "Witched of the Mist" or on Skywalker in ROTS, then I see him taking it.


Originally posted by Arhael
I say either stalemate or until either of them gets tired.

I just see Dooku being a bit better from the ROTS fight tbh. Just think when he force choked Kenobi it wasn't just because he's stronger with Force TK, but because he was outfighting better, hence able to catch Kenobi off guard with the choke, despite Kenobi having aid from Skywalker.

To be fair he outfought both Kenobi and Skywalker in that scene.

Originally posted by Master Han
Isn't makashi particularly effective against soresu? Makashi's actually good against all other forms, in fact its the most effective in 1 on 1 saber combat.

Dooku has ONLY gained an advantage over master kenobi with the force... there is no reason to believe it wasn't because of that. We were shown that and that IS why he was able to do so... not because he out saber dueled him.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Dooku has ONLY gained an advantage over master kenobi with the force... there is no reason to believe it wasn't because of that. We were shown that and that IS why he was able to do so... not because he out saber dueled him.

You really need to watch that scene again if you think Dooku's superiority was solely force TK related.

He clearly outfought Kenobi (and Skywalker together) in that scene. Why was Kenobi's(and Skywalker's) Saber parried out of the way first? Why didn't Kenobi attempt to block the Force attack like he did against Skywalker?

And do you honestly believe that if the positions were reversed he couldn't have given Kenobi that same wall slamming kick he gave Skywalker? That would really be stretching considering he parried both their Sabers back first.

And the Rise and Fall of Darth Vader confirms it was because Dooku simply moved faster than Kenobi.

So there's just no getting around the fact that Dooku simply outfought Kenobi (and Skywalker tbf) in that scene.

Dooku did well in that scene no doubt and fought well... but let's be clear on something... the narration and dooku's own thoughts were also very telling. He realized he was going to be eventually taken out and needed to seperate the two. He was fighting well but realized he couldn't continue fighting both at the same time. Kenobi didn't try and block the TK of Anakin he was trying the same move as anakin at the same time. Big difference.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Dooku did well in that scene no doubt and fought well... but let's be clear on something... the narration and dooku's own thoughts were also very telling. He realized he was going to be eventually taken out and needed to seperate the two. He was fighting well but realized he couldn't continue fighting both at the same time.

Yeah but I'm not claiming he's better than both. Just better than Kenobi. There's a large difference in their Force TK obviously. But I think that scene showed there is a difference between them in close combat as well.

No doubt Kenobi would give Dooku a good fight if we ignore their difference in TK. But I still think Dooku would take a large majority, if not every fight. He just seems to me to be the better combatant and very skilled at multiple attacks, e.g. a Saber parry and a kick or force attack together.



Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Kenobi didn't try and block the TK of Anakin he was trying the same move as anakin at the same time. Big difference.

According to the script Kenobi did it first, and Anakin blocked it. Doesn't really matter which way around it was, point is they were fast enough to counter each other's attacks.

Whilst Dooku took Kenobi completely off guard despite the fact that Dooku was the one outnumbered.