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Kenobi does the time warp and ends up fighting this Sith Lord.

Who wins?

Nyriss does, because she's an ancient sith, and because she has a few impressive feats with a lightsaber and the Force that suggest she may be very powerful.

Kenobi takes it.

Personally I think Nyriss tooling Scourge and the Exile at the same time shows she can beat Kenobi. She has extremely powerful Force showings and great lightsaber feats.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Personally I think Nyriss tooling Scourge and the Exile at the same time shows she can beat Kenobi. She has extremely powerful Force showings and great lightsaber feats.

In all seriousness, Obi Wan's feats and accolades > Nyrris's. Various credible sources marvel at Kenobi's skills, describing him as perhaps the greatest soresu practitioner in history. There's nothing to suggest that Nyriss is particularly powerful for a council member. Remember that she gets one shotted by Revan like a complete joke.

With her own power.

Nyriss opened up her fight by jumping in between Scourge and the Exile and proceeded to humiliate them at the same time in lightsaber combat, kicking their asses despite them flanking her on both sides. She then absolutely pwned them both with the Force, overpowering them both with a single attack each. This being the woman who soloed an entire Sith Temple and whooped Sion and Traya multiple times each on a potent nexus, plus Scourge who's a Juyo and Soresu master .

Nyriss is a veritable monster.

Nyriss is inferior in saber feats. Not sure about force powers but Kenobi has blocked lightning from Dooku.
What force feats do Scourge and Exile have during the novel?

At the very least, Nyriss doesn't have much durability if Kenobi manages to redirect her lightning back at her a la Mace vs. Sidious.

The Scourge Nyriss beat wasn't close to his peak and his eventual mountain of kills. I could see Nyriss winning but she lacks feats from more than one good showing to put her above Kenobi in sabers at least.

Yeah I know, but he was still an very powerful and skilled Sith Lord at the time. Beating him that easily is impressive, beating him while beating the Exile (who has quite a bit more to her name) is amazing imo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah I know, but he was still an very powerful and skilled Sith Lord at the time. Beating him that easily is impressive, beating him while beating the Exile (who has quite a bit more to her name) is amazing imo.
The way Exile was depicted in Revan was plain humiliating though.

Yeah, but that doesn't diminish her accomplishments in Kotor II. That she was humiliated by Nyriss just goes to show the latters power.

The real humiliation was in how much weaker she was than Revan, when she should be his equal. Also she was portrayed as just a Jedi, when in Kotor II she was basically an eldritch abomination in human form whose mere existence made people shit their pants.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, but that doesn't diminish her accomplishments in Kotor II. That she was humiliated by Nyriss just goes to show the latters power.

The real humiliation was in how much weaker she was than Revan, when she should be his equal. Also she was portrayed as just a Jedi, when in Kotor II she was basically an eldritch abomination in human form whose mere existence made people shit their pants.
Well, obviously Meetra was not Revan's equal, maybe even. Less than half his power possibly.

>:[

That annoys me.

That annoys me too, Exile shouldn't be canon fodder to showcase Revans power.

Originally posted by NTJack0
That annoys me too, Exile shouldn't be canon fodder to showcase Revans power.
I agree. But that's how Drew wrote it out to be. Making the female look weak when compared to the male protagonist. Evidently fighting Sith like Nihilus means nothing when the novel is called Revan.

Originally posted by Master Han
Nyriss does, because she's an ancient sith, and because she has a few impressive feats with a lightsaber and the Force that suggest she may be very powerful.

Obiwan because he's in the movies!

The major issue is that Nyriss needs more than one good showing against an early Scourge and unimpressive Meetra (in Revan) to be put above a Rise of the Empire era Jedi. The Sith needs more feats.

Master Han , y u no reply 2 me? :C


Also, the Exile is better than Scourge Legend.* estahuh




* In Revan.

Nyriss' saber feats are not superior due to lack of many feats. And FL is not going to be a deciding factor in this match unless Nyriss' lightning is more powerful than Dooku's, which I doubt.

It is. A single burst from her turned 2 armored guards into charred and smoking husks. Another burst tore through the Exile's force barrier and incapacitated her. Her charged lightning was capable of tearing through a force shield and turning herself into ash.

That she owned the Exile with it is impressive considering Mrs "killed 10 sith assassins just by walking passed them' Traya couldn't own the Exile.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Because he haven't demonstrated the capability to dominate two heavyweights with his Force abilities simultaneously.


Scourge and the Exile aren't heavyweights. "master swordsman" =/= heavyweight. "legendary swordsman" = heavyweight. "one of the greatest swordsmen of all time" = heavyweight.



Given that all Force users instinctively know how to protect themselves from Force attacks, to the point where neither Kenobi nor Skywalker think about trying to push the other off the narrow walkway surrounded by lava, this isn't very impressive. Especially given that Scourge has no Force feats at this point in time to put him on the level of Kenobi.



Why do you keep suggesting that this is somehow relevant?

And interesting that you bring up the Revan debacle. Remember when Revan oneshots Nyriss into a pile of ash?




The Chosen One is just an "above average" Force-user? LOL wut?

I seem to recall his casually jumping off an airspeeder, falling hundreds of meters through heavy traffic, and landing precisely on the speeder he was tracking, deccelerating from terminal velocity to zero vertically, and a considerable distance horizontally, in a fraction of a second, without any injury or discomfort. This is as a padawan.

I also seem to recall Dooku being trapped by one of Anakin's Force walls. This is, again, as a padawan.

I also seem to recall that, when he gets sufficiently "in teh zone", he can turn Dooku's command of the Force into "a joke".




Yeah, and Kenobi uses it to deflect all of Grievous's saber strikes simultaneously.

Given that Grievous has himself killed multiple council Jedi at once, this is a helluva lot more impressive than beating two "exceptional" combatants.



Firstly, this fight is Obi Wan vs Nyriss, not Obi Wan vs Scourge. Secondly, Obi Wan is hardly one to feel lots of "fear" or "raw emotions".



Yes, and everyone on your list is a SW heavyweight. Scourge and the Exile, at this point, have demonstrated nothing to put them on their level.



So what?

Obi Wan casually dispatches two (three?) magnaguards, a single one of which is considered more than a match for a Jedi Master, and are programmed with knowledge of all 7 lightsaber forms (making them technically more skilled than Kas'im), with far greater ease than Scourge does.



Not as impressive as Kenobi's "one of the best of all time" accolades.



Wrong thread bud.



OK, with all due respect, your continual inability to understand this simple point is beginning to get a little ridiculous.

That Scourge is an "exceptional duelist", "master swordsman" and "really powerful" is good and all, but it doesn't establish anything spectacular. The same accolades could apply to any number of Jedi and Sith whose ass Kenobi can kick.

Kenobi is continuously described as one of the greatest duelists of all time. Dooku is personally amazed by his abilities in RotS. Windu considers him the master of Soresu. Kenobi has tooled Grievous and held of the Chosen One, who the thousand years old Durge described as the fastest Jedi he'd ever met.

Notice the difference in scale here.

I don't care if Nyriss can handle the Exile and Scourge at the same time. Obi Wan has handled several magnaguards with casual ease, a single one of which can kill a Jedi Master. Obi Wan has handled with ease Grievous, who has tooled more than one council level Master simultaneously. I don't care if you think Nyriss's feat is impressive because Scourge and the Exile are "really powerful", because you'll need accolades and feats beyond that to elevate her above Kenobi.




By TOR? Debatable, although "in awe" might be an exaggeration.

By Revan? Nyriss is never established to be an above average council member. I don't understand why you think that all named characters, particularly ancient ones, must by default be exceptionally powerful. Scourge is established to be remarkably talented, but nothing legendary. Obi Wan, on the other hand, is already personally held in "such high esteem" by Yoda in AotC, and by RotS he's regarded as one of the GOATs.



You mean against Nyriss.



Because, on average, they're better, as per canonical statements by Lucas and Gillard, and as per specific references in the RotS novelization.



That's speculative, since we don't know his entire combat history. And even then, I don't see how this makes him particularly impressive. The Emperor is only going to send Scourge to deal with enemies he thinks the Wrath can handle, and then Scourge, being essentially an assassin, picks and chooses when and where to fight, so it's not as if he's taking them on in fair fights gauntlet style.

And in the course of said 3 centuries, there's nothing to suggest that he's had to face anyone on the level of Kenobi. Obi Wan is a prodigy.



Competent enough that Dooku warns Grievous to avoid him.



Why, because he's a "master swordsman"? Because unnamed lightsaber instructors were reluctant to face him?

Qui Gon Jinn is, yet again, described as one of the premier lightsaber duelists in history. All of these people you think Revan-era Scourge can hang with are way out of his league.



Not by the Revan novel. At this point, he's considered to be exceptional, not legendary.



OK. So where is it specified that Sion and Traya (a former Jedi counsular) are particularly skilled with a lightsaber?

Okay so.

Exile Vs Kenobi
Scourage Vs Kenobi

How does it go!?.

They're about even. The Exile and Scourge maybe a bit above Kenobi.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Okay so.

Exile Vs Kenobi
Scourage Vs Kenobi

How does it go!?.

Kenobi would take the Exile with some difficulty. In a lightsaber fight he'd completely dominate her, though she'd use her Force Powers to recover.

Scourge would be much more difficult, being over 300 years old, having a Force-User kill count of over a thousand, the ability to completely gorge on the emotions of others, and having an immensely enhanced body... It could really go either way. I'd go with Kenobi though.

I want to mention this since you (Master Han) say it's rather unimpressive that Nyriss got pwnt by her own lightning:

Her lightning is described in the novel as powerful enough to desintegrate a being and tear through shields. The reason why her own lightning destroyed her was because it was actually extremely powerful, not because she was weak.

Exile and Scourge are below Kenobi. Seemingly around Savage Opress. But Nyriss is way above the Exile and Scourge. Kenobi may be her superior in sabers. But with the force...Nyriss is vastly superior.

All out ultimately will go to Nyriss in a hard fight, only because Kenobi is amazing with Soresu.

I'd go as far as saying Nyriss can beat Kenobi without so much difficulty. She pwnt the Exile and Scourge simultaneously with a lightsaber; both of them are extremely skilled so it should work as a reference to Nyriss' abilities. After that, she proceeded to pwn them with the Force, again simultaneously.

I rank Nyriss at approximately the same level as Dooku.

A bit above imo. Dooku struggled against Ventress and Savage, for a comparison to Nyriss' Exile/Scourge duel.

Yeah, but Nyriss accomplished this while on a DS nexus.

Even if true, Scourge would be amped too as a Sith, and the Exile's best feat was stomping the Triumvirate while on Malachor V, the most potent nexus in the galaxy at the time, much much more powerful than Dromund Kaas.

True, I'm not dismissing her feats. I'm merely pointing out that she was empowered by the nexus while doing this, so maybe she is indeed on Dooku's level.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
I'd go as far as saying Nyriss can beat Kenobi without so much difficulty. She pwnt the Exile and Scourge simultaneously with a lightsaber; both of them are extremely skilled so it should work as a reference to Nyriss' abilities.

Pwning two beings simultaneously is only conditionally impressive. Scourge and Meetra are "extremely skilled swordsmen", but such an descriptor has an enormous breadth of connotations from above-average to Palpatine level. It's a rather arbitrary leap in logic to argue that Nyriss can take Kenobi simply because she can defeat two "powerful" opponents (note that Kenobi has both taken on Maul and Oppress and two/three magnaguards, which are each capable of killing Jedi Masters).



Uh, no, that's impossible.

The only manner in which you could put Nyriss on Dooku's level is if you put Revan above Yoda/Palpatine, since either one is markedly above Dooku, but Tyrannus could still give either one a decent battle. Nyriss, meanwhile, is "nothing" next to a drug-addled Revan.

Revan's skills with Tutaminis ARE Yoda/Palpatine level though, which is how he beat her so easily. It very much is possible.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan's skills with Tutaminis ARE Yoda/Palpatine level though,

Uh, yeah...citation needed.

Originally posted by Master Han
Pwning two beings simultaneously is only conditionally impressive. Scourge and Meetra are "extremely skilled swordsmen", but such an descriptor has an enormous breadth of connotations from above-average to Palpatine level. It's a rather arbitrary leap in logic to argue that Nyriss can take Kenobi simply because she can defeat two "powerful" opponents (note that Kenobi has both taken on Maul and Oppress and two/three magnaguards, which are each capable of killing Jedi Masters).

Which is why I base my conclusion not on the fact that they're extremely skilled swordsmen, but on their feats. I merely pointed out they're extremely skilled.





As Neph said, they are Yoda/Palpatine level. Overall, Revan might not be able to defeat either of them, but I'd say he could take on Dooku and win. Plus, Nyriss being as powerful as Dooku doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Revan = Yoda/Sidious. Yoda and Sidious are significantly more powerful than Dooku, but Revan being more powerful than Nyriss doesn't make him equal to them, unless you know the exact difference of power between Yoda/Sidious and Dooku and conclude that there is no way Revan is more powerful than Dooku and less powerful than those two.

EDIT - I wouldn't say Nyriss is nothing next to 'reborn' Revan. After all, it was her lightning that killed her, not Revan's and she was unprepared for him. We don't know to what extent is Revan more powerful than Nyriss.

Originally posted by Master Han
Uh, yeah...citation needed.

Casually absorbing and throwing back Nyriss lightning, which possessed enough raw power to disintegrate her instantly even after tearing through resistance when charged. And batting aside Vitiate's lightning, which is called infinitely greater than Nyriss' own, which even uncharged can turn armored guards into charred husks.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Casually absorbing and throwing back Nyriss lightning, which possessed enough raw power to disintegrate her instantly even after tearing through resistance when charged.

#"Ode to Circular Logic"



Uh...nowhere does it state that Vitiate's lightning bolts are infinitely greater than Nyriss's own, but rather that Vitiate himself is, overall, infinitely more powerful than Nyriss, in context of his charged attack.

And this is still circular logic. You're arguing that Nyriss's death isn't a mark against her because Revan is Palpatine-level, and that Revan is Palpatine-level...because he easily killed Nyriss.

Furthermore, you've admitted that, holistically and in terms of overall Force ability, Vitiate is below RotS Sidious. And given that Revan is below Vitiate by a respectable margin, and is in turn above Nyriss by a ridiculous level...yeah, the notion that Nyriss can defeat Dooku is patently absurd.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
but I'd say he could take on Dooku and win. Plus, Nyriss being as powerful as Dooku doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Revan = Yoda/Sidious. Yoda and Sidious are significantly more powerful than Dooku, but Revan being more powerful than Nyriss doesn't make him equal to them,

You claim that Nyriss is on Dooku's level, suggesting that Revan can oneshot Dooku, far beyond simply defeating him. Do you think Yoda or Palpatine could casually turn Dooku into a pile of ash while in a drug addled state?

Ancient-named-characters-must-be-good syndrome aside, there is nothing to put Nyriss above your average RotS era council member. Beating two powerful foes at once isn't particularly impressive here.

Originally posted by Master Han
#Ode to Circular Logic"

It isn't circular logic. Its logic built off of facts.

1. Nyriss' charged lightning is powerful enough to disintegrate instantly even after being weakened by going through a Force Shield. This is comparable to Sidious' own lightning, which is also powerful enough to disintegrate as shown in Sithisis.

2. Revan effortlessly caught and returned said lightning.

3. Revan compares to Palpatine in regards to Tutaminis.

Originally posted by Master Han
Uh...nowhere does it state that Vitiate's lightning bolts are infinitely greater than Nyriss's own, but rather that Vitiate himself is, overall, infinitely more powerful than Nyriss, in context of his charged attack.

And this is still circular logic. You're arguing that Nyriss's death isn't a mark against her because Revan is Palpatine-level, and that Revan is Palpatine-level...because he easily killed Nyriss.

Furthermore, you've admitted that, holistically and in terms of overall Force ability, Vitiate is below RotS Sidious. And given that Revan is below Vitiate by a respectable margin, and is in turn above Nyriss by a ridiculous level...yeah, the notion that Nyriss can defeat Dooku is patently absurd.

It does. The context is that its talking specifically in regards to a comparison between Nyriss and Vitiates charged attacks. The text says that Revan cannot block Vitiates lightning as he did Nyriss' because he is infinitely greater than her. Its referring to the difference between those two atacks, therefore conveying the quote onto Vitiates lightning. Which therefore also indicates that Vitiates non-charged lightning is also infinitely more powerful than Nryiss' non-charged lightning.

No. facepalm

Revan is Yoda/Palpatine level with Tutaminis because he blocked an attack that was F*CKING IMPRESSIVE in its own right. It disintegrated her after going through a Force Shield. That is the indication of the strength of the attack. That Revan so easily redirected that attack indicates at least Yoda level Tutaminis ability. In my personal opinion greater than Yoda, but whatever.

If I did do that, then I completely and utterly take it back. No it isn't. Stop using retarded ABC logic. Theres a reason it doesn't work and this is it.

Originally posted by Master Han
You claim that Nyriss is on Dooku's level, suggesting that Revan can oneshot Dooku, far beyond simply defeating him. Do you think Yoda or Palpatine could casually turn Dooku into a pile of ash while in a drug addled state?

Ancient-named-characters-must-be-good syndrome aside, there is nothing to put Nyriss above your average RotS era council member. Beating two powerful foes at once isn't particularly impressive here.

Revan can't one-shot Dooku because Dooku's lightning isn't powerful enough to rip through his own force barriers and turn himself to ash. False equivalency.

The Exile stomped an entire Sith Temple on the most powerful nexus in existence barring Nathema and then shitstomped Sion 5 times in a row, and Traya twice in a row. Owning her is enough to put her well above Jedi Council level.

Originally posted by Master Han
You claim that Nyriss is on Dooku's level, suggesting that Revan can oneshot Dooku, far beyond simply defeating him. Do you think Yoda or Palpatine could casually turn Dooku into a pile of ash while in a drug addled state?

That depends. If you think Revan is far above Nyriss, then yes, it means exactly that. I, however, don't think Revan is that much powerful than Nyriss. He is more powerful, but I don't think that by a lot.

Remember, it was her own lightning that turned her into ash, not Revan's. And she was completely unprepared for it. Revan vs. Nyriss on even ground would be different, imo.




lol

I'm no ancient Sith fanboy. I draw conclusions based on what I see/read.

Why isn't it particularly impressive here, though?

Originally posted by Nephthys
1. Nyriss' charged lightning is powerful enough to disintegrate instantly even after being weakened by going through a Force Shield. This is comparable to Sidious' own lightning, which is also powerful enough to disintegrate as shown in Sithisis.


It's not comparable to Sidious's own lightning. Sidious does what Nyriss needs to do with a charged attack, using one hand, to three dark side accolades. Casually. He also kills 50 stormtroopers with Force lightning while conveniently leaving unscathed the particular coup's leader.

This is the lightning that Yoda turns back on the sith lord at point blank range.

And also, just to clarify, does the narrator state that Nyrris's lightning can do that, or are you just extrapolating from what happens to her when Revan tosses the lightning back?



Except that Nyrris's lightning attack that we're talking about was charged...



ABC logic doesn't work when there are specific circumstances that you actually have to point out, instead of just arbitrarily tossing out the transitive property.

And whilst taking back your assessment that Sidious > Vitiate would hardly be something new (you've done it literally over a dozen times), it's still a canon fact. Sidious > Vitiate > Revan >>>>>> Nyriss. Sidious = Yoda > Dooku, but not by a lot.

Originally posted by Master Han
You claim that Nyriss is on Dooku's level, suggesting that Revan can oneshot Dooku, far beyond simply defeating him. Do you think Yoda or Palpatine could casually turn Dooku into a pile of ash while in a drug addled state?

Ancient-named-characters-must-be-good syndrome aside, there is nothing to put Nyriss above your average RotS era council member. Beating two powerful foes at once isn't particularly impressive here.

Revan can't one-shot Dooku because Dooku's lightning isn't powerful enough to rip through his own force barriers and turn himself to ash. False equivalency.

The Exile stomped an entire Sith Temple on the most powerful nexus in existence barring Nathema and then shitstomped Sion 5 times in a row, and Traya twice in a row. Owning her is enough to put her well above Jedi Council level.

Originally posted by Master Han
It's not comparable to Sidious's own lightning. Sidious does what Nyriss needs to do with a charged attack, using one hand, to three dark side accolades. Casually. He also kills 50 stormtroopers with Force lightning while conveniently leaving unscathed the particular coup's leader.

This is the lightning that Yoda turns back on the sith lord at point blank range.

And also, just to clarify, does the narrator state that Nyrris's lightning can do that, or are you just extrapolating from what happens to her when Revan tosses the lightning back?

It is comparable. Hence why there are two situations where they compare to each other. Nyriss disintegrates herself. Sidious disintegrates a Sith Worm. The situations compare. It doesn't matter that she has to charge it up, since Revan blocks it anyway.

Yes. At great strain though. Revan doesn't strain. Hence why I call it comparable in strength. Even if Sidious' lightning is above Nyriss' charged lightning, the difference in strain still makes them comparably good.

Wtf? She turns to ash. Thats what happens.

Originally posted by Master Han
Except that Nyrris's lightning attack that we're talking about was charged...

Yeah, I know. Which is why I also elaborated on her non-charged lightning, which is still potent as shit, able to one-shot Meetra and turn armored guards into smoking husks. Being infinitely more powerful (which I know is hyperbole, but clearly refers to Vitiate being far greater than her) than lightning of that caliber is still amazing, as is Revan being able to bat it aside.

Originally posted by Master Han
ABC logic doesn't work when there are specific circumstances that you actually have to point out, instead of just arbitrarily tossing out the transitive property.

And whilst taking back your assessment that Sidious > Vitiate would hardly be something new (you've done it literally over a dozen times), it's still a canon fact. Sidious > Vitiate > Revan >>>>>> Nyriss. Sidious = Yoda > Dooku, but not by a lot.

Yes! The specific circumstance was that Revan is amazing at Tutaminis and Nyriss had just charged up an attack that he could reflect that was capable of one-shotting her. Revan didn't one-shot her, she one-shot herself. That is the special circumstance.

Hence. Why. I'm. Only. Saying. That. He's. That. Far. Above. Her. In. Tutaminis. You. Illiterate. Fool.

The only thing Revan has demonstrated that thats far above Nyriss is his Tutaminis, which is why that is the ONLY thing I'm saying is Yoda/Palpatine level in regards to him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan can't one-shot Dooku because Dooku's lightning isn't powerful enough to rip through his own force barriers and turn himself to ash. False equivalency.


What? So Revan can't just charge up an attack of a similar level of power himself?



By your own concession, the Exile we see in Revan isn't nearly as powerful as your interpretation of her feats in KOTORII suggest. Assuming that your estimation of her power is correct, we can assume that she's horribly out of practice.



The situations don't compare, not unless if you think Nyrris's lightning is on Palpatine's level.



No, this is circular logic (again). We're trying to establish Nyrris's power here, and you're ultimately using your conclusion to support what's supposed to be an argument leading to your conclusion.



How do you know Revan didn't add his own power into his reflection?



Given that Nyriss caught the protagonists by surprise when she killed the guards, we don't know whether she charged it or not. And Revan Exile isn't impressive at all.

I'm not denying that Revan possesses extremely powerful defenses, so you can stop declaring his skills "amazing". I'm just pointing out that there's nothing to suggest that his Tutaminis is disproportionately Yoda-level, whilst his overall power is not.



Why do you assume Revan didn't add his own power into the attack?

As a given, he's going to have to push it back against her (notice how Yoda does this against Dooku).



LOL, wut? So because Revan is far above Nyriss in tutaminis, he must be Yoda/Palpatine level?

lmao

That is a particularly egregious mistake, I agree. Does she wield it with her teeth or something?

It's just so funny to watch you frantically attempt to reframe and reinterpret things to your liking.

Lol. Many other people have commented about how much weaker the Exile was in Revan than in Kotor 2, including you when it first came out. I found out yesterday on the swtor forums that Karpyshan has admitted he knew next to nothing of the character of the Exile, giving me a reason for it.

I'm not saying it's sensible, I'm saying that the fact Karpyshyn didn't know jack about her doesn't change the fact that the Exile still compared Revan to every other Force user she'd ever encountered, Nihilus included.

Huh? Thats the other thread, we're talking about why Meetra sucks in Revan and kicks ass in Kotor II in here.

Though it does mean that Karpyshan is full of shit to be making that comparison when he knows ****all about the people Meetras met.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Huh? Thats the other thread, we're talking about why Meetra sucks in Revan and kicks ass in Kotor II in here.

Though it does mean that Karpyshan is full of shit to be making that comparison when he knows ****all about the people Meetras met.



Sorry, we're bouncing from thread to fvcking thread, can't keep track!

That aside, Meetra's skills were demonstrated in this book and she was simply underwhelming. Perhaps when the time comes and she appears in other sources where such things can be conclusively determined, we can write it off as a low showing.

But if you want to dismiss it simply because you think it's bullshit, then we'll do it and you can hold my hand as I begin pruning the fvck out of Vitiate.

We can call it simply a low showing. Since in Kotor II she's a beast who stomps an entire Sith Temple, whoops Sion 5 times in a row, then beat Traya twice in a row, on Malachor V, the most potent darkside nexus short of Nathema and with the MSG making it so that 'To walk on its surface is to feel it crushing every cell of your being. It is like being buried alive until it seems you will never breathe again.'

No.

I have no personal problem with that, I think Karpy shortchanged the Exile badly.

But no.

Yes.

Nah.

It true, so yes.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Even if true, Scourge would be amped too as a Sith, and the Exile's best feat was stomping the Triumvirate while on Malachor V, the most potent nexus in the galaxy at the time, much much more powerful than Dromund Kaas.

Hang on, how do you figure Dromund Kaas is a lesser Dark Side nexus than Malachor V.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's never demonstrated it.


Buddy, you've speculated off a number of things that have never been demonstrated, especially not in a single short, oddly written novel, so I don't see where you're trying to go off here, unless if you think Nyriss > Revan in conjuring lightning.



That's an out of universe excuse, not an in-universe rationalization. The Exile's power is...sort of crucial to the novel's plot, which, in turn, is crucial to the ongoing of the entire mythos. You can't just handwave such discrepancies.

Either way, however, if Revan Exile <<< the "real" Exile, you can't draw any conclusions about how powerful characters are by interchanging the two. That Nyriss can pwn Meetra in Revan doesn't indicate she could last five seconds against the more powerful Exile in KOTORII. You can't have your cake and eat it too.



On what grounds? It seems that Palpatine charged lightning against Windu and possibly Yoda given his prep time; there's no indication that you necessarily need to see a visual effect. And given the trouble Windu and Yoda go through to deflect his attack, you, again, would have to conclude that Revan's Force defenses are vastly beyond Yoda's or Windu's, despite the former having dedicated 8 centuries to defending against the dark side, and the latter having vaapad's superconducting loop.



Look at the context; we were discussing Nyriss vs Dooku, and I opened this side-debate by suggesting that Revan's pwnage of Nyriss puts her massively below Tyrannus.



OK...and do Yoda and Windu not do the same to Palpatine?



And without using circular logic, how, exactly, do you prove this? You're framing this in the context of Revan's power being the ultimate question here, rather than Nyriss's.

The fact that Karp knew shit about the Exile really screwed her up. Only a piece of crap author doesn't research the characters he's going to write about.

Korriban isn't strong enough to corrupt by virtue of simple power, just by walking on it. Neither is Dromund Kaas.

Kun was corrupted by Freedon Nadd anyway, not Korriban.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Korriban isn't strong enough to corrupt by virtue of simple power, just by walking on it. Neither is Dromund Kaas.

Kun was corrupted by Freedon Nadd anyway, not Korriban.

Except Freedon Nadd and all those Sith Lords are Korriban, they are the source of its evil and power. And Kriea's statement that it has always been a source of evil and always will be, and that it has spawned threats throughout the evil pretty much confirms that it can corrupt people by them just walking on it.

Also Kreia was always on the verge of the Dark Side. The Ebon Hawk crew were on its surface and didn't succumb. Unless you think Atton Rand has a greater resilience to the Dark Side than Kreia.

But they don't count as a darkside nexus, do they? And no it doesn't, it just suggests that Korriban is always going to be a place where evil is born, not that Korriban itself can make you so through sheer darkside power. We know that thats not true because people have been to Korriban, we've read their experiences there and it isn't that powerful.

Actually, only Mira was. The rest aren't shown to be there.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But they don't count as a darkside nexus, do they? And no it doesn't, it just suggests that Korriban is always going to be a place where evil is born, not that Korriban itself can make you so through sheer darkside power. We know that thats not true because people have been to Korriban, we've read their experiences there and it isn't that powerful.


"Korriban is the ancestral home of the Sith. It is a place of great power; the dark side lives and breathes in the very core of this world."-Qordis
"It has been ten years since I last stood on this lost world. It is a place still potent with power."-Palpatine
Korriban has, since the story's inception been hailed as the birthplace of the Sith, the pinnacle of dark power in the galaxy. Dromund Kaas I'll give you (although the Sith Emperor being the greatest Sith up to that point would undoubtedly have made Kaas the greatest place of Dark Power in the galaxy over the 1000+ years of experiments).

Every major Sith Lord in history has visited Korriban.
Also:
"And because Malachor, like Korriban, is on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the Sith wait for us, in the dark."

I am pretty sure that the Sith Emperor would have at least tried ot visit Malachor if it were a place of immense power like you claim.

Even destroyed it would be a place of power. But the fact that no Sith fleet was sent there seems to contradict your claim.

The Sith sent in significant military strength to secure Korriban because of its power.

Then who piloted the Ebon Hawk to save the Exile's ass?
And even so Mira doesn't have more resilience to the Dark Side than any random Jedi.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
"Korriban is the ancestral home of the Sith. It is a place of great power; the dark side lives and breathes in the very core of this world."-Qordis
"It has been ten years since I last stood on this lost world. It is a place still potent with power."-Palpatine
Korriban has, since the story's inception been hailed as the birthplace of the Sith, the pinnacle of dark power in the galaxy. Dromund Kaas I'll give you (although the Sith Emperor being the greatest Sith up to that point would undoubtedly have made Kaas the greatest place of Dark Power in the galaxy over the 1000+ years of experiments).

Every major Sith Lord in history has visited Korriban.
Also:
"And because Malachor, like Korriban, is on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the Sith wait for us, in the dark."

Cool story.

Malachor's still better though! The darkside being strong on Korriban doesn't make it stronger than a place where just walking on the surface gets you skull****ed by the darkside.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Then who piloted the Ebon Hawk to save the Exile's ass?
And even so Mira doesn't have more resilience to the Dark Side than any random Jedi.

I guess she does though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Cool story.

Malachor's still better though! The darkside being strong on Korriban doesn't make it stronger than a place where just walking on the surface gets you skull****ed by the darkside.

Cool story Korriban is still better though!

Prove that it was Malachor, and only Malachor that corrupted Kreia.
Revan took Jedi there to corrupt them. If Malachor V was the bestest Mary Sue nexus in the galaxy, why didn't Malak simply drop Bastila on Malachor V for a day and then pick up his fresh new apprentice.





Or maybe Malachor isn't as corruptive as you suspected.

On another note, just read up on Darth Marr, the man's got chops. He's known for "routing entire armies", now I want a novel to show him in action.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Sounds like fallacious hyperbole to me.

Perhaps if it hadn't of actually happened.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am sure the Dark Lord of the Sith and Emperor knows about where his Sith Assassins are being trained.

Probably.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
She predicted events thousands of years in the future from Duxn, that doesn't mean Duxn is a better nexus than Korriban.

No she didn't?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Except it did corrupt Exar Kun. And has been known to corrupt those trapped on its surface. That's why there are Terenteteks out the whazu on the planet's surface in KOTOR I.

No, Freedon Nadd did. Just because 'they are the source of its evil and power' doesn't him synonymous with Korriban. He's an individual who's actions are outside of Korriban. And he corrupts Kun through temptation and blackmail, not through his power being inherently corrupting. Korriban is not a nexus so powerful that that power corrupts and drowns those who walk upon it in the darkside. Nor is it a Force Wound of planetary scale.

No it has not and the only Terentateks on Korriban in Kotor 1 are those in Naga Sadows tomb. There have been only 5 Terentateks found on Korriban to my knowledge. Compare this to the dozens on Belsavis and its not really indicative of anything.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It kind of is like that though. I'm just pointing out that its obviously hugely powerful to be able to corrupt so easily and practically drown people in the darkside. This is a place that is so tainted with the dark side its ridiculous, Revan himself was nearly consumed by the dark power of Malachor when he stepped foot on the planet, Kreia was broken by the planet, and Revan simply summoned up dark side energy from the planet and managed to corrupt countless Jedi to his will. Moreover the sheer amount of death that has taken place on or near Malachor combined with the planet being drenched in dark power makes it one of the most tainted places in the SW galaxy and probably the strongest darkside nexus on record.

Why is corrupting people already skirting the dark side impressive? Although you do make a good case for Malachor being more corrupt than pretty much any place in the galaxy. Although to be fair we don't know how Droumund Kaas compares.



Except Sion has a soft spot for female Exile.



When was Revan consumed by it?




I think it was a prediction. But it can be interpreted in either way.


Korriban was a wound. Lonna Vash selected that place to hide for that very reason. The Jedi Masters all selected places where they thought that holes in the force were happening to investigate.



Fair.




You don't find one in KOTOR II. All 3 are found in KOTOR I.

Nyriss.

Same. She's stronger in the Force, demonstrated superior Force powers and is more dominating in regards to lightsaber combat. She'll be able to breach Kenobi's defenses in both aspects imo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its impressive that the nexus did so through sheer strength.

The Exile makes no mention of Dromund Kaas being similar and theres nothing indicating it is in any of the descriptions of it. Besides, its not been confirmed that Kaas even is a nexus. The only part confirmed to be one is the Dark Temple and the surrounding areas. That such a distinction is made makes me skeptical to begin with. Surely if the whole planet were a nexus it wouldn't have only said that the surrounding areas were a nexus.


Perhaps. But wouldn't the Emperor of the Sith want the most powerful nexus as the seat of his power?



Still Sion is far more invested in Meetra's well being when she's selected to be female.




Yes he was. The JC throughout KOTOR said that Revan's fall began during the Mandalorian Wars. Which culminated with their encounter with the Sith Emperor.





I suppose. I always thought in cut content Vash was to live and that she too went out in search of the wounds. And that translates to wounds to me considering that the masters were able to deduce that it was not just those places but the Exile herself causing them.



It's all good, just cuddle with me later excellent

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Perhaps. But wouldn't the Emperor of the Sith want the most powerful nexus as the seat of his power?

Not if its like, actively driving his citizens insane or whatever. :shrug:

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes he was. The JC throughout KOTOR said that Revan's fall began during the Mandalorian Wars. Which culminated with their encounter with the Sith Emperor.

I meant that Revan wasn't consumed by Malachor. He started falling, but it was only complete after Vitiate.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I suppose. I always thought in cut content Vash was to live and that she too went out in search of the wounds. And that translates to wounds to me considering that the masters were able to deduce that it was not just those places but the Exile herself causing them.

In cut-content, Vash was supposed to be on a completely different planet that was cut from the game, M4-78.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not if its like, actively driving his citizens insane or whatever. :shrug:
He had no problems eating his citizens for the sake of advancing his power though.
http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-colbert.gif



I'd imagine Revan would be able to if fricken Mira was. He's supposed to be the supreme Mary Sue of his generation.



True...I guess I have just internalized the restored Jedi Council scene as my head canon.

Woah woah...you don't want to cuddle. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-colbert.gif

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
He had no problems eating his citizens for the sake of advancing his power though.
http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-colbert.gif

He still needs people to make up his Empire. Its not going to go very well if his capital planet is turning everyone crazy.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
True...I guess I have just internalized the restored Jedi Council scene as my head canon.

Woah woah...you don't want to cuddle. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-colbert.gif

Okay.

Sorry, I was tired and wanted to respond quickly then sleep. You know I'm always up for cuddles. >:]

I didn't even notice this was addressed to me, sorry.

Originally posted by Master Han
Buddy, you've speculated off a number of things that have never been demonstrated, especially not in a single short, oddly written novel, so I don't see where you're trying to go off here, unless if you think Nyriss > Revan in conjuring lightning.

I do think that. Revans never demonstrated a particular aptitude for lightning, and has never charred or disintegrated anyone with it like Nyriss has.

Originally posted by Master Han
That's an out of universe excuse, not an in-universe rationalization. The Exile's power is...sort of crucial to the novel's plot, which, in turn, is crucial to the ongoing of the entire mythos. You can't just handwave such discrepancies.

Either way, however, if Revan Exile <<< the "real" Exile, you can't draw any conclusions about how powerful characters are by interchanging the two. That Nyriss can pwn Meetra in Revan doesn't indicate she could last five seconds against the more powerful Exile in KOTORII. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

You mean, kinda like how the creators of the Clone Wars cartoon admitted it was exaggerated? Nah but you're fine with using that in other threads, so there must be a difference there that I'm not seeing right?

Except that Nyriss pwning the Exile is still a thing that happened. As you said, its critical to the plot. I'm not suggesting it be seen as non-canon. What I'm suggesting is that we can't use 'The Exile was worthless in Revan' as a mark against Nyriss owning her, because she wasn't worthless. Shes still the same character who did all that crazy shit I'm pointed out. KotorII!Exile isn't >>>> Revan!Exile, they are the same person. The only reason she seemed worthless was because Karpyshan didn't do his homework. That is what is non-canon, the idea that Meetra is mediocre at best. Canonically, she's still really ****ing impressive. Which is why Nyriss pwning her, is still really ****ing impressive too.

Originally posted by Master Han
On what grounds? It seems that Palpatine charged lightning against Windu and possibly Yoda given his prep time; there's no indication that you necessarily need to see a visual effect. And given the trouble Windu and Yoda go through to deflect his attack, you, again, would have to conclude that Revan's Force defenses are vastly beyond Yoda's or Windu's, despite the former having dedicated 8 centuries to defending against the dark side, and the latter having vaapad's superconducting loop.

Palpatine didn't charge his lightning against Windu or Yoda.

And yes, I did say I thought they were more impressive then Yodas, didn't I?

Originally posted by Master Han
Look at the context; we were discussing Nyriss vs Dooku, and I opened this side-debate by suggesting that Revan's pwnage of Nyriss puts her massively below Tyrannus.

Right.... but what we're actually discussing is whether or not Revans ability with Tutaminis is Yoda level. If we were discussing Nyriss I would just point out the thing I do below.

But if you insist, its utterly retarded to think that Nyriss is massively below Tyrannus in terms of Force Lightning considering her lightning is FAR more potent than his is. Her lightning one-shots the Exile, turns people to charred husks and utterly disintegrates them even after going through a force barrier.

Your whole argument is built on a frankly idiotic case of ABC logic. Where Revan owning Nyriss MUST make him >>>> her, in turn making him >>>>>>>>> the Exile, while Vitiate >>>> him and Palpatine is >>> Vitiate. Therefore Nyriss MUST be <<<<<< Dooku since ABC Dooku himself is slightly below Yoda boodiboodiboo.

Thats just not the case, and is an extremely apt example of why ABC logic is considered laughable on this forum.

Originally posted by Master Han
OK...and do Yoda and Windu not do the same to Palpatine?

Yes. Although they showed a good deal more strain than Revan did.

Originally posted by Master Han
And without using circular logic, how, exactly, do you prove this? You're framing this in the context of Revan's power being the ultimate question here, rather than Nyriss's.

Because Nyriss' lightning was shown to be amazingly powerful. You can say that Dooku is above her all you want, but her lightning outstripped his by a nautical mile in that scene. The same lightning Revan (literally) casually handled. As I said, Nyriss' charged lightning rivals Sidious' in its ability to disintegrate a body completely. Revan casually palming it is why I say he's near or above Yoda in regards to Tutaminis. Its a massively impressive feat.

But its the only massively impressive feat Revan has in the entire novel. Nowhere else does he demonstrate power and skill of that magnitude. He has no great TK feats. He has no great lightning feats. He has no impressive speed or duelling feats. He demonstrates nothing else thats noteworthy on the level of Yoda and Sidious. Nothing else in regards to his abilities puts him on that level. The only thing that does is the scenes where he handles Nyriss' and Vitiates lightning. Tutaminis is the only amazing skill he shows. Thats why his Tutaminis is the only aspect that he rivals Yoda in. Because in every other area Yoda is his clear superior in demonstrated power.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I do think that. Revans never demonstrated a particular aptitude for lightning, and has never charred or disintegrated anyone with it like Nyriss has.


And since Revan has never demonstrated any particular aptitude for telekinesis, and never shot open that one door like Darth Maul did, I guess we should say he's inferior in that regards as well, right?

Unless otherwise indicated, we typically assume that one's ability in a certain Force area, with adequate training, is going to compare with others' talents proportional to their overall Force ability. Hence, we'd probably agree that Palpatine could beat Kenobi in a Force tug-of-war, even though Sidious really doesn't have many impressive telekinesis feats.



Yes, there is, oh-sarcastic-one. It's that the Clone Wars cartoon's narrative of events quite irreconcilably contradicts events detailed in the more recent animation.



I'm sorry, but this is laughably boneheaded logic. If the Exile "seemed" worthless because of out-of-universe errors in research, and assuming that such an excuse is even admissible, why should we take Nyriss's defeat of her seriously? By your own logic, Karpyshan envisioned Nyriss defeating an "Exile" far weaker than the Exile from KOTOR II that may very well have wiped the floor with her.

Again, you can't have your cake and eat it to. You either say that Nyriss defeats the "real" Exile, and that the real Exile isn't that strong, or you maintain your argument of PIS and therefore forgo claiming that Nyriss can defeat the KOTOR II Meetra.

To put it another way, the reason why we view the Exile as weak is because of her performance against the soldiers and Scourge's high but not exceptional opinion of her, actions that should, in your own logic, mean that the soldiers sent to arrest her are superhuman.




Except that, since this Meetra's feats are too bad and therefore apparently non-canon, her losing to Nyriss, which is part of why we consider her unimpressive, is also "non-canon".



"charging" isn't necessarily visible. That dark council member didn't telegraph his own charging.



No, you're arbitrarily flip flopping between "on the level" and "beyond", all based on nothing more than horrible circular logic.



What makes you think Dooku's cannot? Is he not capable of disarming three nightsisters with said lightning while drugged? It's not as if he wasn't toying around with Anakin in AotC.



"that's just not the case" isn't a really sustainable course of argument.



Because Palpatine is orders of magnitude more powerful than Nyriss...



OK, let's assume for a moment that Nyriss's lightning surpasses Dooku's (even though her turn people to ashes trick really isn't that exclusive in the EU).

How does this put Revan's Force defenses on Yoda's level again? What arbitrary mathematics have you made up to conclude that "easily redirect Nyriss's lightning" > "barely stop Sidious's". Because since you admit that Yoda > Revan in overall Force ability, you'd have to prove that Revan's lightning-catching abilities are disproportionately greater relative to his overall power, even though Yoda specialized in defending against the dark side.

Originally posted by Master Han
Scourge and the Exile aren't heavyweights. "master swordsman" =/= heavyweight. "legendary swordsman" = heavyweight. "one of the greatest swordsmen of all time" = heavyweight.
Maybe your interpretation of heavyweight is different then mine. My interpretation of a heavyweight is based on the holistic picture of an individual (power, skill, accomplishments all included).

Both Scourge and Meetra qualify as heavyweights because both have "unique" accomplishments under their belt in addition to being powerful and skilled.

Originally posted by Master Han
Given that all Force users instinctively know how to protect themselves from Force attacks, to the point where neither Kenobi nor Skywalker think about trying to push the other off the narrow walkway surrounded by lava, this isn't very impressive. Especially given that Scourge has no Force feats at this point in time to put him on the level of Kenobi.
This explanation doesn't makes sense! Neither Skywalker and nor Kenobi would have risked unleashing Force powers on each other in a "lava based setting" because neither one of them had significant advantage over each other in this context and both may have risked getting killed in this manner.

Scourge and Nyriss didn't fought in a setting involving lava; they fought in a safe setting and Scourge's decision to unleash a Force push on Nyriss was well thought out, otherwise, Meetra might have fallen. I am not sure if Scourge matched Obi-Wan in Force abilities at this point but he is definitely above ordinary stage (ordinary represents majority in an era?).

Originally posted by Master Han
Why do you keep suggesting that this is somehow relevant?
It is relevant; dominating two heavyweights simultaneously is supposed to be a BIG DEAL. We have a measuring stick in the sense that Obi-Wan haven't demonstrated matching strength.

Originally posted by Master Han
And interesting that you bring up the Revan debacle. Remember when Revan oneshots Nyriss into a pile of ash?
You need to understand the nature of this feat; Revan possessed such level of defensive capabilities that he literally turned Nyriss's powers back on her, leaving her in a vulnerable situation and ending the fight swiftly. This accomplishment reveals that Revan is extraordinarily proficient in combat related applications of the Force and also combat related aspects in general (most likely rivaled by few in the entire history of the mythos in these aspects as per existing information). This development doesn't helps the case of Obi-Wan in any way or context.

Originally posted by Master Han
The Chosen One is just an "above average" Force-user? LOL wut?
What does "The Chosen One" label have to do with Anakin's actual command of the Force prior to his duel with his mentor Obi-Wan? Anakin certainly had the potential to become the most powerful Force-user among the mortals but he hadn't unlocked the entirety of his potential prior to his duel with his mentor Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Master Han
I seem to recall his casually jumping off an airspeeder, falling hundreds of meters through heavy traffic, and landing precisely on the speeder he was tracking, deccelerating from terminal velocity to zero vertically, and a considerable distance horizontally, in a fraction of a second, without any injury or discomfort. This is as a padawan.

I also seem to recall Dooku being trapped by one of Anakin's Force walls. This is, again, as a padawan.

I also seem to recall that, when he gets sufficiently "in teh zone", he can turn Dooku's command of the Force into "a joke".
Zayne Carrick have comparable feats with his Force abilities and he have been regarded as among the "average" in his time. Jedi, after proper training, are supposed to impressive with their Force abilities. This is the NORM.

Also, learn to differentiate hyperbole from fact; Dooku was superior to both Anakin and Obi-Wan in "command of the Force" aspect. The final encounter between Anakin and Dooku have circumstances attached to it but this is a separate debate.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yeah, and Kenobi uses it to deflect all of Grievous's saber strikes simultaneously.

Given that Grievous has himself killed multiple council Jedi at once, this is a helluva lot more impressive than beating two "exceptional" combatants.
Council members in the Jedi Order aren't necessarily among the most powerful and skilled in their respective eras. They are more like "role-model" followers of the Jedi philosophy.

Why do you think that PT era Jedi Council was not willing to accept Anakin as its member? Because Anakin was not perceived as a "role-model" follower of the Jedi philosophy. This Council accepted Anakin only due to request of the chancellor.

Council members themselves can significantly vary in both power and skill factors. Consider the case of PT era Jedi Council members; we have Coleman Trebor who couldn't fight Jango Fett even from close distance and we have Mace Windu who didn't just kill Jango Fett but also brought Sidious to his knees. So?

Grievous, being able to handle so many Jedi, is either an indication of general incompetence of the Jedi of that respective era or PIS at its finest in the mythos. A powerful Force-user shouldn't find Grievous a difficult opponent to defeat and dismantle with sheer Force abilities alone.

Originally posted by Master Han
Firstly, this fight is Obi Wan vs Nyriss, not Obi Wan vs Scourge. Secondly, Obi Wan is hardly one to feel lots of "fear" or "raw emotions".
Primal fear is part of the basic (instinctive) psychology of any self-aware complex living being. Jedi learn to control their emotions to great degree (more so then normal humans can) and some may not even fear death but still they are unlikely to be utterly devoid of basic (instinctive) psychological feelings/concerns.

In the entire mythos, their is example of only one Jedi who refused to fight any individual and didn't resist even the attempts of an individual who killed him (as per my knowledge). Obi-Wan certainly isn't like this.

Maybe Obi-Wan is challenging to gorge upon but this doesn't seems to be an impossible task unless Obi-Wan knows how to make his mind impenetrable, which I seriously doubt.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes, and everyone on your list is a SW heavyweight. Scourge and the Exile, at this point, have demonstrated nothing to put them on their level.
This doesn't even qualifies as an argument; this qualifies as a desperate rant.

1. I do not regard "everyone" as a heavyweight.

2. Both Scourge and Meetra were skilled enough to take on and defeat two Imperial Guard individuals simultaneously in martial aspects of combat (TOR era Imperial Guard individuals are among the finest combatants in the galaxy; good enough to be part of the powerbase deployed by the Sith Emperor himself for his personal protection; and specially trained to tackle threats from Jedi and Sith Orders respectively). This is damn fine indication of Scourge and Meetra being capable of hanging with a threat like Grievous.

3. Scourge was specially such a fine duelist that even his instructors became reluctant to duel him during his final days in the Sith Academy (The instructors wouldn't be lacking in skill either since they shaped Scourge in to such a fine warrior in the first place). During confrontation with the Imperial Guard, Scourge outdueled even the LEADER of the Imperial Guard and he accomplished this while being outnumbered (Imperial Guard LEADERS are specially among the best of the best in martial aspects of combat in the galaxy). This encounter actually have more depth to it which makes Scourge's performance nothing short of utterly amazing (additional information revealed below). It is safe to assume that Scourge can possibly even outduel an opponent such as Grievous in a fair fight.

Originally posted by Master Han
So what?

Obi Wan casually dispatches two (three?) magnaguards, a single one of which is considered more than a match for a Jedi Master, and are programmed with knowledge of all 7 lightsaber forms (making them technically more skilled than Kas'im), with far greater ease than Scourge does.
You are significantly ill-informed about martial talent of Kas'im. He mastered all known lightsaber combat forms to their highest degree (technically possible) and even more (invented new techniques to further hone his proficiency in martial aspects of combat. On top of this, he packed reasonable Force abilities. It would be silly to compare Magnaguards with Kas'im.

Also, Scourge's questionable performance against the droids is entirely circumstantial development. Scourge had become so accustomed to utilizing his gorging talent against his opponents that he instinctively attempted the same against the droids, which backfired on him. On top of this, the harsh environment of the setting was an additional disadvantage to him. Still, Scourge made it out alive and destroyed any opposition in the process including the big and heavy droids. After this encounter, Nyriss psychologically fine-tuned Scourge to control his gorging talent.

Try not to overlook the circumstances behind a fight which you intend to refer in a debate.

Originally posted by Master Han
Not as impressive as Kenobi's "one of the best of all time" accolades.
Their can be like hundred(s) of individuals who may fit the criteria of this accolade? The accolade itself is somewhat vague in its meaning so not many authors are going to use it repeatedly in literature.

At maximum, this accolade affirms that Obi-Wan safely qualifies as "among" the best duelists in any era but not necessarily the TOP duelist of any era. For example: He might be number 5 in his time but number 20 in another time. These are the kind of ambiguities that we have to deal with in these kind of debates unfortunately.

Originally posted by Master Han
Wrong thread bud.
Well, you are considering only the "normal" incarnation of Scourge? He is not to be underestimated even in this incarnation, specially by the end of his story arc in Revan novel.

Originally posted by Master Han
OK, with all due respect, your continual inability to understand this simple point is beginning to get a little ridiculous.

That Scourge is an "exceptional duelist", "master swordsman" and "really powerful" is good and all, but it doesn't establish anything spectacular. The same accolades could apply to any number of Jedi and Sith whose ass Kenobi can kick.

Kenobi is continuously described as one of the greatest duelists of all time. Dooku is personally amazed by his abilities in RotS. Windu considers him the master of Soresu. Kenobi has tooled Grievous and held of the Chosen One, who the thousand years old Durge described as the fastest Jedi he'd ever met.

Notice the difference in scale here.

I don't care if Nyriss can handle the Exile and Scourge at the same time. Obi Wan has handled several magnaguards with casual ease, a single one of which can kill a Jedi Master. Obi Wan has handled with ease Grievous, who has tooled more than one council level Master simultaneously. I don't care if you think Nyriss's feat is impressive because Scourge and the Exile are "really powerful", because you'll need accolades and feats beyond that to elevate her above Kenobi.
This is the first "decent" attempt from you to make a case for Obi-Wan but you are focusing only on the "finest moments" of Obi-Wan.

This statement: That Scourge is an "exceptional duelist", "master swordsman" and "really powerful" is good and all, but it doesn't establish anything spectacular. The same accolades could apply to any number of Jedi and Sith whose ass Kenobi can kick. - applies both ways. Scourge possessed the capability to outduel opponents qualifying for these accolades as well.

Scourge's performance against the Imperial Guard individuals affirms my position on this : The Imperial Guard individuals were not just exceptional duelists but this encounter took place in a setting where they could draw upon the power of the Sith Emperor himself to augment their capabilities and render them virtually invincible to Force powers to great extent. Scourge was apparently disadvantaged in this encounter in the context that he couldn't rely upon his Force abilities to overcome opposition in this kind of setting to gain upper-hand, instead he had to rely upon his (pure) martial abilities to outduel such a formidable opposition. This is true for Meetra and Revan as well. Now try to comprehend the ground realities of this encounter properly and you may understand my point of reasoning in this regard.

Secondly, you are ignoring the fact that Obi-Wan never managed to outduel Dooku in any aspect of combat, who in turn, was outdueled by Anakin. However, Obi-Wan did manage to stalemate Anakin in a duel. So do you really think that A > B > C logic is infallible?

Point is that combat situations are never so black and white. Obi-Wan may have been formidable enough to match Anakin and Ventress but he found Maul and Dooku as relatively more difficult opponents to hang with at personal capacity.

Obi-Wan may find Scourge a very tough opponent to contend with at personal capacity (Scourge have an innate advantage due to his gorging talent). In contrast, Obi-Wan offers nearly impenetrable defense to crack to Scourge due to being among the TOP Form III practitioners in history but the gorging talent of the latter might afford him a stalemate at minimum, if not victory (I am not ruling out the possibility of victory of Scourge in this fight by the way since Scourge is also a master of all forms of lightsaber combat in addition to possessing gorging talent).

Also, you mentioned speed; Scourge is well accustomed to perform his actions with enormous speed in all capacities (He studied the curriculum of Sith Warrior in which speed is one of the important aspects to focus upon). Also, speed is an ambiguous element to focus upon in this kind of debate because words such as blinding, supernatural, blur, shield and vice versa do not quantify this element properly. Anakin may have been the fastest Jedi whom he met in his (or its) span of existence but we do not know what he would think about great warriors whom he have not met.

Originally posted by Master Han
By TOR? Debatable, although "in awe" might be an exaggeration.

By Revan? Nyriss is never established to be an above average council member. I don't understand why you think that all named characters, particularly ancient ones, must by default be exceptionally powerful. Scourge is established to be remarkably talented, but nothing legendary. Obi Wan, on the other hand, is already personally held in "such high esteem" by Yoda in AotC, and by RotS he's regarded as one of the GOATs.
The humor level in this particular assertion is good.

The "high esteem" remark made me laugh; it reminded me about potential shortcomings of perceptions because Dooku found Obi-Wan easier to knock out then (padawan) Anakin.

Also, I am not assuming every (named) ancient character to be exceptionally powerful.

I hold Nyriss in such a high regard because of her performance against the duo of Scourge and Meetra. The background realities of both Scourge and Meetra are impressive by standards of the mythos itself. Nyriss may not be the strongest member of the Dark Council of his era but she reveals that how potent Dark Council members are in general. Their are more examples of Dark Council members being extremely impressive or powerful individuals. Fans should try to re-adjust their older perceptions about relative strength of characters in the mythos as per this latest update.

Originally posted by Master Han
You mean against Nyriss.
She can be included in the list.

Originally posted by Master Han
Because, on average, they're better, as per canonical statements by Lucas and Gillard, and as per specific references in the RotS novelization.
Unlikely! Canon literature (representing history) reveals that the PT era Jedi were "out of touch" in preparedness for major threats.

I do pay attention to revelations from Lucas and other authorities but I do not forego actual canonical information in the process. Lucas, in particular, have history of making claims that may not sit well with canonical developments of the mythos so I tend to be cautious about using his personal statements as a source. Otherwise, I would be picking and choosing statements for my benefit in debates just like many fans may do.

Originally posted by Master Han
That's speculative, since we don't know his entire combat history. And even then, I don't see how this makes him particularly impressive. The Emperor is only going to send Scourge to deal with enemies he thinks the Wrath can handle, and then Scourge, being essentially an assassin, picks and chooses when and where to fight, so it's not as if he's taking them on in fair fights gauntlet style.

And in the course of said 3 centuries, there's nothing to suggest that he's had to face anyone on the level of Kenobi. Obi Wan is a prodigy.
Well, their is ample room for creative liberties in the story of Scourge but to assume that he never met an opponent as formidable as Obi-Wan or possibly superior during his enormous span of existence is asinine.

Sith Emperor sent his first Wrath to eliminate "formidable threats" mostly. Canonical description is like this: "When a Jedi grew too powerful or a Sith too ambitious, Scourge eliminated the threat."

The Emperor's Wrath position was part of the personal powerbase of the Sith Emperor and its purpose was to ensure that Sith Emperor is to be FEARED and not to be messed with. For this kind of position, only the top dogs qualified.

Originally posted by Master Han
Competent enough that Dooku warns Grievous to avoid him.
Even if for argument sake we assume that Drallig was not a walk in the park for Grievous, he isn't actually exclusive in this regard. We have a LIST of PT era Jedi who could match Grievous (I think that Baris qualifies for this list as well). On the whole, their might be many names who may qualify for this criteria.

Originally posted by Master Han
Why, because he's a "master swordsman"? Because unnamed lightsaber instructors were reluctant to face him?
The "unnamed" logic doesn't works in these kind of debates.

An unnamed Jedi collapsed two buildings around the position of Malgus, attempting to crush him in the process (Vader level strength at minimum).

While identification is good for consumers, it would be asinine to assume that "unnamed" individuals suck by default. Those unnamed lightsaber instructors held such an important position in a Sith Academy of a great Sith Empire for good enough reasons and also get the credit for shaping Scourge in to such a fine warrior. Try to think logically.

Originally posted by Master Han
Qui Gon Jinn is, yet again, described as one of the premier lightsaber duelists in history. All of these people you think Revan-era Scourge can hang with are way out of his league.
Well, good for him, but does this proves that he is superior to Scourge by default? No.

Originally posted by Master Han
Not by the Revan novel. At this point, he's considered to be exceptional, not legendary.
If this makes you comfortable, be my guest! But underestimating him is not going to help your case.

Remember that Nyriss handled the duo of Scourge and Meetra simultaneously without difficulty. Try to acknowledge that Scourge and Meetra are already among the heavyweights of the mythos and then try to comprehend Nyriss's extraordinary capabilities.

Even if we are to assume that Obi-Wan is more then a match for Scourge and Meetra individually (which I doubt due to so many reasons), their is nothing on Obi-Wan which lends credibility to the assertion that he stands a chance against the duo of Scourge and Meetra. And Nyriss sets the bar even higher then this "already very formidable duo."

Obi-Wan IS logically outgunned in this contest; we all know how good he is. Argument is not about Obi-Wan being a match for Nyriss in (pure) martial aspects of combat but argument is about Nyriss being relatively much more imposing and effective combatant on the basis of her extraordinary abilities. This is why she has advantage over Obi-Wan and this is why she is likely to dominate and eliminate him after some fight.

Originally posted by Master Han
OK. So where is it specified that Sion and Traya (a former Jedi counsular) are particularly skilled with a lightsaber?
Sion have been promoted as a the best lightsaber duelist within the Sith Triumvirate and is canonically extraordinary difficult to knock out.

Traya benefits from being powerful and dangerous with her Force abilities, even if she is not a superb lightsaber duelist. However, she was among the well-known lightsaber instructors of her time and her pupils included Meetra.

Its not like as if Sith Triumvirate was a walk in the park. You are trying to undersell the Meetra with these kind of assumptions.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The "high esteem" remark made me laugh; it reminded me about potential shortcomings of perceptions because Dooku found Obi-Wan easier to knock out then (padawan) Anakin.


And you think Anakin wasn't also held in high esteem?

The point is that Obi Wan by RotS, or even AotC:

1. Has vastly superior accolades ("one of the greatest of all time" >>> "master swordsman"
2. Has vastly superior feats

Compared to Revan era Scourge.

There is therefore no basis to put Scourge on his level, or on Shaak Ti's level, or on the level of any characters that surpass him in accolades, rank and feats, other than pure bias.

Nobody denies that Scourge was exceptional. This does not put him in the top 0.04% of his order, as Kenobi was.



Name a single named ancient character that you've actually argued to be below Qui Gon Jinn, himself one of the greatest saber duelists to ever live. Oh, wait; you seem to think that dark council member 103 is automatically above Obi Wan because he appears in a video game, right?



That Nyriss can defeat two powerful combatants simultaneously is "impressive" but hardly unique in the mythos, given that Grievous has defeated multiple Jedi together, and is inferior to Kenobi.




An obvious reference to their arrogance and inflexibility, not their explicitly spectacular dueling prowess.



You are correct in pointing out that out-of-universe statements, and especially in-universe narrations, should not be taken as proof but rather evidence. That being said, they cannot simply be dismissed out of hand because you do not like them, and I see no reason to disbelieve the contention that the PT era lightsaber duelists are, in average, the best in history. This is especially true when it comes to the issue of comparing lightsaber duelists from different eras, in which everything is relative - you judge one's lightsaber prowess mainly by their performance relative to other combatants within the same era, and there's no universal measuring stick.

This is in contrast with Force feats, which are half powerscaling, half performance against interchangeable phenomena, such as being able to move so much weight or destroy so much rock.



By that logic, to assume that Vodo had never met an opponent as formidable as Exar Kun or possibly superior during his enormous lifespan is asinine. Or, we could develop your logic ad-infinitum and therefore argue that Scourge must be superior to Dooku and Mace Windu as well.

Whilst a duelist superior to Obi Wan may have surfaced during the time period, and probably likely did, you would need to establish that Scourge actually fought and defeated such a foe on even grounds.



"formidable threats" is an incredibly vague term and certainly does not, by default, mean "among the greatest swordsmen to ever live".



And? Relative to the mythos as a whole, Obi Wan certainly is a top, top, top dog.

(mind you, this entire line of thought is a red herring, since we're not talking about TOR era Scourge)




You could say the same for Scourge. The point is that Cin Drallig already has a greater implied skillset than Scourge:

1. He's a master of all lightsaber forms
2. He's the temple battlemaster in the dueling golden age
3. He's one of the four Jedi specifically mentioned by Dooku that Grievous should avoid

Scourge, meanwhile, is a juyo master (impressive) and clearly enormously skilled, but he's not near the top of the Empire by this point, as in the top five or even top 20. He's exceptional, he's been noticed, but he's not occupying the position of fourth best duelist in the entire order like Kenobi has by RotS, for example.

Again, analogy: Scourge is an exceptional graduate student from MIT; Obi Wan is Neils Bohr.





LOL wut? Vader strength at minimum? The same Vader that's 80% of Darth Sidious?




Your condescending attitude does not mask your inability to understand the issue of probability here; whilst it is possible that these lightsaber instructors were Cin Drallig's, barring further evidence the most probable conclusion is that they were your typical lightsaber instructors; certainly incredibly skilled, but not even within the top 1000 of all-time.

You, yet again, fail to recognize the difference between "exceptionally skilled" and "fine warrior", and "the master of soresu" and various accolades attributing Kenobi the rank of one of the greatest duelists of all time.

(cont)

(cont)




Does it "prove" anything? Since we're comparing the much harder of the two combat categories that usually relies on powerscaling, it's impossible to definitely "prove" anything. But, I can establish that my conclusion (Obi Wan defeats Scourge, and, as a larger picture, Nyriss) is significantly more probable than yours, because Obi Wan:

1. Has superior feats.
2. Has superior accolades.
3. Has superior ranking relative to his (superior) era.



That Scourge is exceptionally skilled is not in dispute. But you don't understand the difference between such an admission and his being on Obi Wan's level.



You have done absolutely nothing to establish Scourge as "one of the heavyweights of the mythos" at this point in time. What part of you fails to comprehend that being "exceptionally talented" does not put one on the level of one of the greatest in the mythos?

None of the accolades you attribute to Scourge necessitate his being above the top 5% in the sith order at the time.

Obi Wan, being number 4 in the PT order, is within the top 0.04%.

Do you see the difference here?



Why not? Obi Wan has demonstrated that he's more than capable of taking on simultaneous threats, each individually far greater in feats and accolades than Scourge, or possibly Meetra.



No, she's not, because Obi Wan has greater feats, accolades and ranking.



Do you realize how pathetic "extraordinarily difficult to knock out" sounds like? (especially since Meetra ultimately only defeats him via dun moch, so his immortality hardly factors into this)

And I would like a source, please.



Circular logic insert aside, you haven't really established Traya as being a particularly skilled lightsaber duelist relative to persons such as Kenobi...because she isn't.



It wasn't a walk in the park. But the Revan novel certainly does not portray Meetra as particularly powerful. It's not as if the Exile had to be a Force beast to accomplish much; isn't one of the themes of the story the opposite?

Kenobi wins.

Originally posted by Master Han
And since Revan has never demonstrated any particular aptitude for telekinesis, and never shot open that one door like Darth Maul did, I guess we should say he's inferior in that regards as well, right?

Unless otherwise indicated, we typically assume that one's ability in a certain Force area, with adequate training, is going to compare with others' talents proportional to their overall Force ability. Hence, we'd probably agree that Palpatine could beat Kenobi in a Force tug-of-war, even though Sidious really doesn't have many impressive telekinesis feats.

Inferior to whom? Revan does some things with TK in the novel, but nothing that really stands out as great. I do question if he could overwhelm Scourge with as much ease as Nyriss does though.

Not on this forum.

And Sidious does have some spectacular TK feats, like pwning Maul and Savage simultaneously, disintegrating metal and a few others that I forget.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes, there is, oh-sarcastic-one. It's that the Clone Wars cartoon's narrative of events quite irreconcilably contradicts events detailed in the more recent animation.

Nah, it doesn't contradict it in that way other than in how it presents the level of action. Which is what you took issue with in the Tulak Hord thread, pointing out that its admitted to be exaggerated by the creators. In that case you were just fine with using an out of universe excuse to "handwave such discrepancies."

Originally posted by Master Han
I'm sorry, but this is laughably boneheaded logic. If the Exile "seemed" worthless because of out-of-universe errors in research, and assuming that such an excuse is even admissible, why should we take Nyriss's defeat of her seriously? By your own logic, Karpyshan envisioned Nyriss defeating an "Exile" far weaker than the Exile from KOTOR II that may very well have wiped the floor with her.

Again, you can't have your cake and eat it to. You either say that Nyriss defeats the "real" Exile, and that the real Exile isn't that strong, or you maintain your argument of PIS and therefore forgo claiming that Nyriss can defeat the KOTOR II Meetra.

To put it another way, the reason why we view the Exile as weak is because of her performance against the soldiers and Scourge's high but not exceptional opinion of her, actions that should, in your own logic, mean that the soldiers sent to arrest her are superhuman.

But thats not what actually happened in canon. Canonically, Nyriss beat the Exile.

Yes, I can. Nyriss defeated the Exile and did so easily in canon. But the Exile also stomped the Trayas Academy in canon. Both facts occurred, and they are not mutually exclusive. Its not as if anyone can say Nyriss can't beat Meetra. She ****ing did! You cannot re-write canon, but you can reevaluate it. In this case, the only option that actually exists is that Meetra is as good as she is in Kotor II and was still pwned by Nyriss.

Low showing, like Dooku getting beaten by pirates, or any of the million times Luke underperforms.

Originally posted by Master Han
Except that, since this Meetra's feats are too bad and therefore apparently non-canon, her losing to Nyriss, which is part of why we consider her unimpressive, is also "non-canon".

Well then reconsider. If you think her unimpressive because of it, then maybe instead you should try thinking of Nyriss as impressive because of it.

Originally posted by Master Han
"charging" isn't necessarily visible. That dark council member didn't telegraph his own charging.

If it isn't visible and theres nothing to indicate its happening the.... it didn't happen.

Originally posted by Master Han
No, you're arbitrarily flip flopping between "on the level" and "beyond", all based on nothing more than horrible circular logic.

I've made my belief clear.

Originally posted by Master Han
What makes you think Dooku's cannot? Is he not capable of disarming three nightsisters with said lightning while drugged? It's not as if he wasn't toying around with Anakin in AotC.

The fact that he's never done it.

OMFG HE DISARMED THREE NIGHTSISTERS!!!? Big deal, there no evidence that Nightsisters are even taught how to block force lightning. He might as well have defeated 3 defenseless women.

The intensity and power needed to charr or disintegrate a body is still above anything he's done.

Originally posted by Master Han
"that's just not the case" isn't a really sustainable course of argument.

Neither is ABC logic. The difference is that I've outlined my argument across the entirety of my responses to you, showing you exactly why it is not the case multiple times, so your snide comeback is meaningless.

Originally posted by Master Han
Because Palpatine is orders of magnitude more powerful than Nyriss...

Yes.

But Nyriss charged up her attack.

Originally posted by Master Han
OK, let's assume for a moment that Nyriss's lightning surpasses Dooku's (even though her turn people to ashes trick really isn't that exclusive in the EU).

How does this put Revan's Force defenses on Yoda's level again? What arbitrary mathematics have you made up to conclude that "easily redirect Nyriss's lightning" > "barely stop Sidious's". Because since you admit that Yoda > Revan in overall Force ability, you'd have to prove that Revan's lightning-catching abilities are disproportionately greater relative to his overall power, even though Yoda specialized in defending against the dark side.

It isn't exclusive, but we consider those who also demonstrate such raw power to be similarly at the pinnacle of Force Lightning displays.

Revan >>>> Nyriss' lightning, which is one of the greatest displays we've seen, able to utterly immolate a body despite having to chew through a force shield.

Yoda = Sidious' lightning. As of the time, the greatest feat he had done in regards to lighting was when he demonstrated the ability to turn as Sithspawn to ash in Sithisis. Now you could point to him pushing Yoda to the brink with it, but that relies upon Yoda's own abilities in regards to Tutaminis and as such are not great for comparison. We'd only be establishing Yoda's ability through looking at what Sidious has displayed elsewhere anyway, thus establishing Sidious' ability, establishing Yoda's. Circular logic, as you say. Naturally I would still give Sidious' lightning the nod as superior though, since he doesn't need to charge it. This is meaningless in regards to Revan's efforts with Yoda's though. However, the disparate ease with which Revan handles Nyriss' lightning is also a factor, ultimately suggesting parity with Yoda or superiority in regards to Tutaminis.

Also I don't have to prove that his lightning-catching abilities are disproportionately greater relative to his overall power, because that's already established by his actual feats.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But its the only massively impressive feat Revan has in the entire novel. Nowhere else does he demonstrate power and skill of that magnitude. He has no great TK feats. He has no great lightning feats. He has no impressive speed or duelling feats. He demonstrates nothing else thats noteworthy on the level of Yoda and Sidious. Nothing else in regards to his abilities puts him on that level. The only thing that does is the scenes where he handles Nyriss' and Vitiates lightning. Tutaminis is the only amazing skill he shows. Thats why his Tutaminis is the only aspect that he rivals Yoda in. Because in every other area Yoda is his clear superior in demonstrated power.
This is the end result of an extremely lethargic and poorly though out character development in literature.

I am not sure if Mr. Karpyshyn was actually pressured by "higher authorities" to not explore Revan much in the context of his abilities in literature and maintain his ambiguity status to some extent (This character gets lot of attention from fans worldwide); I actually suspect this kind of intervention because it is hard to grasp that why the author would do such a poor job at exploring one of his own prominent contributions in the mythos unless he have been pressured by "higher authorities" to this end. Another possibility is that the author was not interested in writing a novel about Revan at all but was FORCED to do so by "higher authorities" and the end result is a seemingly half-hearted effort in writing a novel about Revan; I mean, the author utterly wasted a golden opportunity, but only fans are left with disappointment.

----

Now coming towards Revan's abilities:-

Their is clear-cut fluctuation in depiction of abilities of Revan in canon sources.

Analogy: Revan went from routing an army of Sith stationed on Star Forge to struggling against Six Mandalorians on Rekkiad in an encounter inside a chamber on a mountain. I am not trying to underestimate Mandalorians because some of them are among the toughest combatants in the galaxy (We have examples of a lone Mandalorian being able to hold his/her own against a powerful Force-user in a duel) but the author possibly overlooked the importance of hyping these 6 Mandalorians or that we have a contradiction in depiction of skill level of Revan. Heck, their is contradiction even in the novel itself; Revan easily knocked out a Basilisk based opponent with his abilities but struggled against 6 Mandalorians who were not willing to challenge the Basilisk based opponent out in the open due to fear of being outclassed and were actually pinned by the same opponent, but they somehow decided that they would stand a chance against Revan.

The contradiction or fluctuation continued with Revan turning out to be very impressive in SWTOR game even after enduring extreme suffering in a span of 300 years: Revan is actually more impressive then Malgus in this game. If Revan's duel against an Imperial Strike Team is depicted in a high budget medium, I am sure that it will stun many viewers. In this duel; Revan bombarded the region with his FLS; could telekinetically manhandle player characters (or members of the Imperial Strike Team); bombarded the region with those gigantic rocks we see flowing inside the region; formed a protective shield around himself after getting injured which made him virtually invincible to external attacks; and eventually bended time and space with Fold Space like talent to escape from the execution. On the whole, very impressive display of power and talents even as per EU standards.

In the novel, Revan's feats are decent as per G-canon standards but not so much as per EU standards. In G-canon depictions, we can clearly observe prominent individuals such as Anakin and Obi-Wan not being as tough or even close to even the weakest depiction of Revan, and Anakin and Obi-Wan are supposedly above average Force-users even by G-canon standards. I think that Mr. Karpyshyn thought lot more on the line of G-canon depictions while writing the novel even though he left room for creative liberties by touting Revan as among the most powerful Jedi in the mythos and superior to any individual whom Meetra met in life in the same literature. At least, something can be done about Revan on these lines, if the author ever decide to explore Revan by taking full advantage of the creative liberties factor, should he get the opportunity or decide to do so.

The information provided in the novel makes it abundantly clear that Revan was not pushed to his limits at any given point in the events after Jedi Civil War till his encounter against the Sith Emperor himself. Only during this encounter, do we notice the signs of Revan being pushed to his limits or being close. Revan's feat of overwhelming Vitiate's mind dominating powers is arguably his most impressive accomplishment in the novel (IMO); while Revan gathered such power, he didn't eventually channeled or focused it towards a target but rather released it in raw form. It remains to be seen, what would have happened if Revan had actually channeled or focused this power towards a target. Revan was later on pushed to his limits in the context of his defensive abilities after the Sith Emperor began to bombard him with his Force abilities; it IS extremely impressive for Revan to being able to hold out for short while against such potent power, tolerating metal melting heat and pain (We know how potent Sith Emperor can get when he means business, like mass destruction level potent), even though Revan was saved from a terrible fate by his droid companion. A short while later, Revan stood up again (ready to fight again) after directly healing his serious injuries with his Force abilities without any aid (which is another very impressive feat).

As per the holistic picture, Revan is definitely up their with likes of Yoda and Sidious (even exceeding them in certain aspects). However, Revan suffers from lack of adequate exploration of his abilities or quality content featuring him. I hope this changes in the future.

Based on a few things Karpyshan has said, I believe his specific intention in writing Revan was that he wouldn't be making Revan that powerful and would be going out of his way not to make him overpowered.

Got this confused with Lord Nyax.


http://nerdrepository.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Lord_Nyax.jpg

Quite possibly the worst designed character in SW history.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Based on a few things Karpyshan has said, I believe his specific intention in writing Revan was that he wouldn't be making Revan that powerful and would be going out of his way not to make him overpowered.
Yes, Mr. Karpyshyn made this apparent in one of his official declarations but he turned out to be more conservative then was actually expected of him.

I understand the reasoning of not depicting Revan breaking a planet apart with mere thought (Mr. Karpyshyn actually gave this example in his official declaration; no, I am not kidding ) and also not being an unstoppable death-machine but he still could explore Revan in lot of impressive ways. In-fact, it would have been better if Mr. Karpyshyn would have decided to write a novel series featuring Revan in the same manner as he did with Bane. In this manner, the author would have ample opportunity to satisfy the curiosity of fans also do justice to his character. Unfortunately, a golden opportunity have been wasted.

Revan have decent rapport among majority of contributors of Star Wars mythos (Revan is officially acknowledged as one of the greatest legends of the mythos) and it wasn't necessary for Mr. Karpyshyn to be ultra conservative about this character in literature. His work seems to be based on G-canon norms rather then EU canon norms.

Meetra suggests that Revan is the most powerful being she's ever met (more powerful than Nihilus, even), and although her judgment certainly isn't perfect, I'm willing to grant Revan that accolade, at the very least. He also does reasonably well against the Sith Emperor in one of the galaxy's most powerful dark side nexuses...that can't be overlooked, either.

I'd put him around 90% of RotS Sidious's power?

I think Revan is definitely the most powerful barring Nihilus. But I flat-out call bullshit on him being more powerful that the guy eating planets.

But him doing well against Vitiate is great, yeah.

Originally posted by Master Han
I'd put him around 90% of RotS Sidious's power?

I'd give him a slight advantage over Dooku and possibly Vader. I don't know if I'd go as high as 90%.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'd give him a slight advantage over Dooku and possibly Vader. I don't know if I'd go as high as 90%.

Well, Vader is 80% of RotJ Sidious, so putting Revan at 90% of RotS Sidious doesn't necessarily put him significantly above Vader.

That's true.

It would put him above Dooku though. mmm

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think Revan is definitely the most powerful barring Nihilus. But I flat-out call bullshit on him being more powerful that the guy eating planets.

He did reasonably well against a guy who sort-of-eats-planets while said guy was being amped by a DS nexus...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, Mr. Karpyshyn made this apparent in one of his official declarations but he turned out to be more conservative then was actually expected of him.

I understand the reasoning of not depicting Revan breaking a planet apart with mere thought (Mr. Karpyshyn actually gave this example in his official declaration; no, I am not kidding ) and also not being an unstoppable death-machine but he still could explore Revan in lot of impressive ways. In-fact, it would have been better if Mr. Karpyshyn would have decided to write a novel series featuring Revan in the same manner as he did with Bane. In this manner, the author would have ample opportunity to satisfy the curiosity of fans also do justice to his character. Unfortunately, a golden opportunity have been wasted.

Revan have decent rapport among majority of contributors of Star Wars mythos (Revan is officially acknowledged as one of the greatest legends of the mythos) and it wasn't necessary for Mr. Karpyshyn to be ultra conservative about this character in literature. His work seems to be based on G-canon norms rather then EU canon norms.

Stop. Just stop. You are upset because Karpyshyn didn't deliver enough fanservice to your favorite character? Seriously? That's what bothers you about the Revan novel.

I don't think you or a lot of people on this board realize that the purpose of Star Wars literature isn't to "one up" other writers in terms of power levels. Which I personally think is good considering that starting in the animated Clone Wars series, and culminating in Darth Nihilus and The Force Unleashed series it seemed to be nothing more than 'Oh you thought Darth I can solo an army was badass, just wait till you see Darth I can move a Star Destroyer.'

I think that the way that Jedi are depicted in the newer mediums is perfectly okay. I don't want to see new force powers with planet shattering. Revan was badly written and had poor character development throughout. Ultimately it was a plot device to somehow explain why the hell Revan is in the current TOR plotline. That's something that should boil the blood. Not the fact that Revan doesn't get force feats of lifting mountains.

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Got this confused with Lord Nyax.


http://nerdrepository.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Lord_Nyax.jpg

Quite possibly the worst designed character in SW history.

Are those... Sabers?

They're attached jetpacks.

So a jetpack on his knees...?

That sucks even moreso than Coleman Trebor.

Yeah, so he can fly backwards.

You like his design?

No, very ugly.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Are those... Sabers?

Yes.